136 Comments on “The Three Types of Women”

1. Would it be beneficial to explore the possible reasons WHY a person develops into a certain type? For example, I dated a Dominant Woman in the past and I discovered she had a Dominant Father growing up. Also, I dated a Submissive Woman in the past and I discovered she had fear of abandonment from growing up.

2. Thats a really interesting topic, although an extremelly complicated one. The same can be asked regarding guys. For example, I noticed that some of the more beta guys I know have some very controling, over-protective mothers. And I read somewhere that if a guy grew up with one or more sisters is much less likely to be shy with women than a guy with no female siblings.

   Off course, people within the same family (brothers ans sisters) usually have very different (if not extremely different) personalities, so its clear the issue of personality development cannot be simplifyed to how their parents behave. Neverless it would be good to know, for example, how a male son should be raised if you want him to be an alpha when he grows up.

3. One of my general life rules is to not worry about why things are unless I have direct control over them.

   If you’re overweight or only make $10,000 a year, then yes, it would make sense to determine why these things are, since you have direct control of the outcomes.

   But wondering why the woman sitting across from you is a Dominant (or a Submissive, or a drug addict, or has a genius I.Q., or whatever) I consider a waste of time, since you have no control over any of those things.

   On the other hand, if you had a son well under the age of 12 and wanted to raise an Alpha, that would make sense, since that’s within your area of control, assuming the child was under the age of 12 or so (since once a kid hits age 12-13 or so, what that kid becomes is largely out of your control).

4. ‘How to raise your kids to become Alphas’. A great topic for another post (or perhaps your Alpha book? 🙂

   My question – do you see most guys and girls primarily displaying the characteristics of one of these types (more than say 90% of the time)?

   Or do you believe that a single guy can be say 60% Alpha, 30% Needy Alpha and 10% Beta (for example)?

5. Love how you distinguish dominant and independent.

6. Many older women demand “courting” e.g buying them gifts (which I would never do). I f–ked a woman who gave me drama about my “cave-man” style after the fact and why didn’t I court her. I told her I don’t do courting and she had the right to say no at anytime if she didn’t want to f–k me.. What types are woman who demand the courting ritual?

7. Amen.

8. @David – Few human beings are 100% consistent, but that doesn’t change who they are. A beta who has a moment of confidence is still a beta, just like an Alpha with a moment of nervousness is still an Alpha. In addition, it’s a scale. There are “normal” betas and extreme betas, etc. But they’re still betas.

   @Dennis – What makes a woman a Dominant or Submissive is how hard she adheres to her own ruleset. Many Submissives and Independents would love to be wined and dined prior to sex just like Dominants do. The difference is a Submissive‘s “Five Dinner Date Rule” or whatever will vanish fast if you proceed to fuck her on the second date (provided you do everything else right). The Dominant‘s rule will not. She’ll adhere to it like it’s the Word of God no matter what you do or how much she likes you.

   So in answer to your question, if a woman has strong courting desires and refuses sex if you haven’t obeyed them, even if she’s clearly attracted to you, she’s a Dominant. If she has strong courting desires but caves in and fucks you anyway before you do any of them, she’s more likely a stronger Submissive or an Independent.

9. I’m going to generalize here, but I have been on a bit of a dating spree lately. Reading this post, I could peg what the Independent would be before I even read that section. My best and most attractive dates have been with Independent wimmenz, and I find we end up getting to know eachother/bond quickly on a first date. Submissive women are fun, because they basically do what you want, but they can’t seem to shoot the shit as well as an Independent in a flirty way.

   With Dominants, it’s all smoke but no fire. They don’t know when to bow out. Personally, when I hear a girl describe herself as “sassy” or “strong and free” I am immediatley turned off because my gut reaction is “yeah right…CONTROL FREAK” Does a Man’s success/experience with a certain type of woman correlate to his personality type or better suit to simply describe his IDEAL type – hunting for your target market – as you’ve alluded to in a previous post. -M

10. @M – I’m the same way when i meet a dominant woman in person. She’s like a monster with claws. I do my best to tame that onerous pussy of hers, but at some point I realize that pussy has thorns inside of it. :-/

    I think a man’s personality does correlate with who he’s successful with. I just wrote down my most recent 10 women that I wanted to get into a relationship (MLTR or FB, not ONS). Four are submissive. Five are independent. One is dominant. These 10 women cover the past year for me, and I’ve turned down MANY other women. Most of them seemed too dominant, and it turned me off.

    For reference, I’m an INTP. I have noise sensitivity, so the loud bitches really turn me off quickly.

11. Hmmm….hmmm…hmmm….lol Actually I fit the submissive type pretty well. I’m more submissive than it might come across, but only with the right guy and I don’t think of myself as BETA, for God’s sake, I’m way too competitive to accept that label. With my ex husband though I was forced to take on a role I didn’t want to play and someone here complained that submissive women are hard to flirt with? Not me at all, and I’m pretty submissive even OUTSIDE the bedroom when its with the right guy. Still its not like I just accept any old person bossing me around and with a lot of guys I actually have the upper hand (though I’m not bossy or bitchy at all) but with the ones I’m actually into it doesn’t work that way.

    Being married to a more beta guy sucked, lol. I was pretty much always waiting around for him to take the lead on things and he wouldn’t so I’d have to but it was with a LOT of resentment.

12. and one more comment because I forgot to check the box to have the comments sent via email. :p And because you all love to hear me ramble. 😉 😉 😉 :p

13. I think I am an dominant woman……..

14. Hmm.. I think I am an independent woman. When I meet a needy alpha, I do become a little submissive to some degree for a while, but then get sick at some point and cut connections, disappear from him and make him unable to contact me. I’ve done this with a few needy alphas before, because I needed my freedom and space. As for alpha guys, well, I guess we could get along, as long as he respects me and let’s me dominate once in a while too, but I think beta guys are more attractive to me and I sometimes wish I had a submissive guy with me to tell him what to do, yet once in a while give me my space for my hobbies. I guess I have a little of each (dominant, submissive, but overall more independent).

    I’ve read Kevin Velasco’s top comment, “JULY 29, 2012 @ 12:30 PM
    Would it be beneficial to explore the possible reasons WHY a person develops into a certain type? For example, I dated a Dominant Woman in the past and I discovered she had a Dominant Father growing up. Also, I dated a Submissive Woman in the past and I discovered she had fear of abandonment from growing up.”
    ^^^^^
    well since I consider myself more independent out of the three types of women, I think I’ve developed into this type because in this household family, my aunt is never married and VERY independent, saying she doesn’t need a man and she always does things on her own, and always makes time for her hobbies and family, and has a negative view on men and dependency on men (and has taught me a lot). My mom, also does all the work herself and I never had a helpful father around in my life. I also grew to be independent and figured things out on my own, be responsible for my own happiness. I once told my aunt that when I grow up, I wanted to be just like her (single, independent, unmarried, children-free, and loving life).
    When I did date guys, some of them were needy alphas or needy betas, and i’d sometimes boss around (the betas) or would just disappear once in a while (from the needy alphas). There were some emotional dramas, and I grew tired and hurt, sometimes hating men (and so I developed a fetish for femdom and sadism towards men). But anyway: some were eager to marry me. I became very uneasy and worried about my freedom, I didn’t feel like I explored life enough, and the idea of having kids made me feel like my life could be over if I had them.

15. is there any way 2 submissives can be in a good healthy relationship?

16. For a while, yes. But in the end, one of the two submissives will start to take control, and then hate it.

17. Even as a woman, I say to the men: Don’t go near a dominating woman. I’ve known two who are the Hillary Clinton type. Like Bill Clinton, their husbands got out of control sexually and had numerous affairs. Mainly out of spite imo. Not to justify their actions, but their wives are so insufferable they eventually drive everyone away. Now it’s the kids who are paying the price. It’s heartbreaking to see them so hurt and scarred for life. When they grow up they will probably blame their fathers for breaking up the family. Their moms will definitely bad-mouth the dads. But it’s women like this who inflict a lot of the damage. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. Trust me.

18. I like both analyses (men and women) that you have done here. I did my first orientation as a supervisor today and described myself as a non dominant alpha. meaning that while I am the boss I don’t feel the need to pee on every spot to show you. I will take the lead if needed but I don’t necessarily enjoy bossing… I actually prefer to let others lead, but have no patience for beta men. I am sure my ex would agree. hehehe. thanks for posting this opinion.

19. In her infamous book “The Rules”, Ellen Fein seems to be arguing that women should avoid being “dominant” at all costs, be “independent” when searching for a man and in the early stages of dating a man but then “submissive” once the relationship is established and if/when they get married. I’m assuming that she probably knew a few naturally “indemissive” women who made this work. I have mixed feelings about “The Rules” but when it works I assume that it’s because the woman’s personality is already pretty close to the indemissive model she is advocating. I’m sure you’ve probably had dealings with your share of “rules girls” but have you met any woman who is naturally indemissive?

20. In her infamous book “The Rules”, Ellen Fein seems to be arguing that women should avoid being “dominant” at all costs, be “independent” when searching for a man and in the early stages of dating a man but then “submissive” once the relationship is established and if/when they get married. I’m assuming that she probably knew a few naturally “indemissive” women who made this work.

    I don’t think she knew anyone who made that exact system “work”. I think she was simply writing a book about how a woman can best maintain power over a man and screen for a provider.

    The bottom line is no woman can pretend to be what she is not for longer than about 2 months. Advice like “be submissive once you get married” is meaningless.

21. I don’t beleive in these. I think how submissive the woman depends on how into you she is. A certain man can turn any alpha woman into a beta bitch

22. I noticed that through this whole description, you never address the Omega… is there a particular reason?

23. An Omega woman? What’s that?

24. My understanding is that an omega is a non-dominant alpha. I described it earlier, just didn’t call it that.

25. This is an interesting post. I am dominant by nature (not sure if I need someone to boss around) – it’s more like I really DISLIKE being bossed around. The reasons for my dominance- grew up in a household with an exceedingly dominant father/submissive mother combination and frankly, going out with dominant men gives me headaches/PTSD. My dad set a terrible example for how a dominant man SHOULD lead – and I realized over time that the family was better off when I MADE MY OWN decisions and didn’t follow his lead or example, and I haven’t really bow-towed to anyone since.

    Of course, not all dominant men are bad role models – some are very good role models, and I can see where my personality makes me a little TOO rebellious, and makes me hesitant to go out with nice, strong alpha male types, many of which are great people and great leaders. But other alpha male types are really just dominant assholes that get away with way too much, and that’s where I think women like me play a certain role in society – to challenge the world – or sometimes just the family unit, when male “dominance” gets totally out of hand.

    In the same vein, not all beta men or submissive men are more pathetic than submissive women – that’s just not true and it is a very mean way to view submissive men. Submissive men can be just as smart/good looking/cunning/complex as submissive women and they are often highly intelligent, highly athletic and have all the good traits of dominant men. The only difference is a personality difference: they try to be a little more agreeable and are less insistent on leadership, they are not “alpha”, but they DO lead in their own way.

    Submissive men, just like submissive women, actually have much greater control over dominant people – due to their perceived flexibility. I have always eventually found myself under the thumb of a “submissive” man over the long run even if I didn’t instantly see their power initially. Submissive men & women gain control over time with their negotiation skills/flexibility. Dominant people are assertive, but they dont necessarily always have control, they just have a very direct communication style.

    Two dominants are badly matched because their communication styles do not complement each other. The dominant man/submissive woman combo is considered to be the best combo because it is the most socially accepted – and it sometimes works very well – however, I have also seen this combination morph into the ugliest of combinations in cases of domestic violence; or male domination that goes way beyond what should be considered acceptable. The dominant woman/submissive man combination is generally considered the least socially acceptable combination, due to the stereotype of the evil/harpie woman and poor nice guy, and I have seen this combination work badly in some cases and very well in others (there’s nothing wrong with having a dominant woman in the household, whether she’s a career person or a housewife “rules the roost” type, as long as there is some mutual respect.)

    Overall as long as it works for the people concerned, that’s all that really matters. Both dominant man/submissive woman and dominant woman/submissive man can be good combinations, the strength of a relationship isn’t whether or not you’re adhering to standard gender roles – its whether or not is a GOOD relationship, period, and of course, in the case of people that are just way too dominant or submissive to the point where they surpass healthy boundaries – that’s just not good for anyone.

    Submissive WOMEN and dominant MEN are mostly the bigger conformists and more judgmental lot, because in a way they are lucky, as their behavior falls within standard gender roles they feel like they can insult and judge others that don’t fit into the norm. Those of us that are dominant women or submissive men are frequently looked down on by society but remember that’s likely 50% of the world’s population, and hopefully by the end of the century people will have the right to be whoever they are personality-wise without having to adhere to stupid rules, expectations and regulations that serve no purpose aside from scapegoating innocent people for their personal or sexual preferences.

26. This is ridiculous, men and women don’t fall into a small group of categories based on their characteristics. No ones personality fits strictly within one of 3 groups. Based on the description of this blog i’m Dominant, Submissive and Independent, as is everyone else.

27. This is ridiculous, men and women don’t fall into a small group of categories based on their characteristics.

    Um…they don’t?

    No ones personality fits strictly within one of 3 groups.

    A 100% fit 100% of the time? Of course not. We’re talking about human beings and everyone has off days.

    But do women have a general prevalence to one of the three categories most of the time in their normal day-to-day lives? Oh yes.

    Based on the description of this blog i’m Dominant, Submissive and Independent, as is everyone else.

    Oh really? You’re exactly one-third of each category with an even distribution 100% of the time?

    Nope.

    You lean hard towards one category most of the time. We all do. And I think you know that. Thus your defensiveness.

    I also think I know which one. (coughdominantcough)

28. How is she dominant because she has an opinion? That defies the logic of your post; she was only being realistic, there’s no need to be hateful and call her a dominant as if it’s an insult. And before you call me one, I honestly don’t feel like I fit into any of these categories. I hate being bossed around OR bossing others around, but I most definitely do not focus on my life so much I don’t want to be in a relationship. Maybe I am one of these, but I don’t think there’s enough details to be sure which I category I fall into.

29. How is she dominant because she has an opinion?

    She isn’t. My guess is that she’s a Dominant, though I could be wrong, based on the fact that A) she immediately called my post “ridiculous” (a Submissive or Independent is unlikely to do that) and B) she is upset that anyone might categorize her, which again, is a common trait I’ve found among Dominants.

    People categorize me all the time and I don’t get upset about it at all. Alpha Male, Alpha 2.0, player, PUA, INTJ, asshole, etc, you can categorize me all you like and I won’t get pissed, since usually categories are somewhat accurate.

    there’s no need to be hateful and call her a dominant as if it’s an insult

    It was not an insult. (Though she will probably view it as one, since she doesn’t want anyone categorizing her.) And I’ve never done anything “hateful” in my entire life. I don’t hate anyone or anything.

    I hate being bossed around OR bossing others around, but I most definitely do not focus on my life so much I don’t want to be in a relationship.

    Then you’re probably an Independent. All three categories of women love relationships.

30. Of course she’s upset someone might categorize her; people usually don’t like others assuming they know something about you that you yourself might not know, it’s insulting to one’s intelligence and self-awareness. And sorry, I exaggerated with the hateful thing, it just seems like you meant to insult her with the “coughdominantcough.” I am INTJ as well, but I’m still not sure about which of your three categories I’d fall under. I am definitely not dominant or submissive, I believe. (Yes, I know you probably don’t care which category I am but help me understand anyway because you’re so nice.) I disagree with “It’s hard for independents to stay with one man for very long, or at least stay monogamous.” because I’ve been in a long-term relationship the last year and a half and look forward to spending the rest of my life with him only. However, I also don’t agree with “Independent women are largely outcome independent even if they’re in a very serious relationship.” because we both depend on each other, that’s how a relationship works. See why I am doubtful of the categories (applied to myself, at least, I don’t mean they aren’t very probable)?

31. Of course she’s upset someone might categorize her; people usually don’t like others assuming they know something about you that you yourself might not know, it’s insulting to one’s intelligence and self-awareness.

    Then you (and her) should lighten up and relax. As I said, people categorize me all the time and it doesn’t bother me in the least.

    I disagree with “It’s hard for independents to stay with one man for very long, or at least stay monogamous.” because I’ve been in a long-term relationship the last year and a half

    A year and a half isn’t long-term. That’s short-term. Come back in 10 years and tell me you’re still with the same guy, then I’ll believe that you love long-term relationships/monogamy.

    I’ve already discussed before how women brag about how they supposedly love long-term relationships only to point at relationships they’ve had that are well less than three years old. It’s silly. Women who love long-term relationships are those who’ve been married and sexually faithful for 25 years straight with the same dude. Since you’re probably an Independent, the odds are very, very unlikely you’ll last that long with this guy.

    TO ALL WOMEN READING THIS: Who you are is not about what you say you want. Who you are is about what you actually DO.

    I also don’t agree with “Independent women are largely outcome independent even if they’re in a very serious relationship.” because we both depend on each other, that’s how a relationship works.

    Outcome Independent doesn’t mean you don’t care if the relationship fails, nor does it have anything to do with financial or logistical dependence. OI means you don’t really need to boss him around, and don’t really worry too much about what he does when you’re not around.

    If you’re trying to convince me you’re not an Independent, you’re not doing a very good job, since everything you’re saying screams Independent. (Which probably insults you because someone is categorizing you.)

32. I’m not upset you’re categorizing me ( I said USUALLY people get upset about it). I’m also not trying to convince you I’m not independent, I’m asking you if you think I am even though I disagree with two of your statements about Independents. What insults me is that you seem to insist I will either cheat or leave my spouse; he is the only person I have ever loved and wanted to stay with and you act like that doesn’t mean shit just because you ASSUME I’m an Independent (which I may be, I honestly don’t care about it anymore because apparently all you care about is proving me wrong and undermining everything I say oh and answering 0 of my actual questions). It would devastate me if our relationship failed and I always want to be around him, so those statements don’t apply to me either.

33. What insults me is that you seem to insist I will either cheat or leave my spouse

    If you’re insulted by me quoting statistical fact, then I think we’re done here. Here are some links that I suggest you research with facts and stats (therefore they will all insult you) regarding the real odds of you actually still being with this man in 25 years: 1, 2, 3, 4.

34. …odds/chances are NOT facts. They are only what MIGHT happen, facts are what HAVE happened and scientific theories are what has, does, and WILL happen. Being as it has not happened so far, you have no facts about my personal life. And if you refuse to read farther than the first line of an argument, you obviously don’t know how to fully understand any factual or nonfactual concept. You should really get that arrogance problem checked out, it’s starting to show a bit too much.

35. I’m an independent. There are perks to being slightly more masculine in appearance. I’m androgynous in looks and attitude with an overall gentle demeanor. I may not attract most men, but I often attract men I like anyway– men who are also androgynous, cool masculine men, submissives, and bisexuals. They are my demographic so to speak. It all works out.

36. Hi there everyone:) I found this blog extremely interesting. Quite honestly, both “types” of men and womans discriptions are, in my opinion spot on, I’m not saying that there won’t be variations but the general idea rings true to me. In short I started my dating life thinking I was submissive, being in a long term relationship with a Needy Alpha, but I adapted and grew tired of his attitude and jealous personality. Another aspect of my transformation is the fact that I am also mother, even though that was never part of my plans… My point is I have to agree with blackdragon, we all lean closer to a certain side but change is also possible, now if I look back I can see clearly that being an “independent” is and always was part of my charm. I have no need to boss men around and no intention of being bossed around. Even though I’m a mother of two beautiful boys I still manage my independence really well, but like I’ve mentioned to a lot of men I date I’m not marriage material, I have no interest in committing to one person and that suits me quite well. If by any chance that does happen, the man I committ to will have to be exceptional in everyway! Though I do believe that everyone can change and adapt, when presented with the right motivation;-)

37. Sorry for the long wait before my reply! Omegas (male or female) can be described simply like this. They are the one who are the “pleasers”. Their whole lot in life is to support the rest of their community… doing the jobs no one else wants to… most of the time they have VERY low self esteem. And though they have dreams and aspirations, they easily, quickly, and willingly give them up to make everyone else happy. They are the ones who do all of the heaviest lifting, but get the lightest acclaim. They are the “garbage handlers, maids, plumbers, dishwashers, farmers, and butlers” of the pack/community (i use that as an analogy, not as a general description of those professions”. They are some of the 1st to get up, and the last to sleep. They are the ones who (in many cases, but not all) hunts the food, gather the food, prepare the food, but are the last to eat the food… but in many cases because everyone else gets 1st dibs, they get the “best parts” of the food… the stuff that is hard to get to, or is left over when everyone else has eaten their fill (i.e. the tenderloin, the marrow, the hearty stuff).
    Specifcally in females, the self esteem can be so low that they may go into lives of servitude… ones that make others “happy”, such as prostitution, pornography, lower level secretaries, housewives to constantly abusive husbands. There is more… but i believe that is basically it.

38. Your “omega woman” = a low self esteem Submissive.

39. I am an alpha male in terms of my educational attainment, income, career success, the way I interact with outside world, etc. I am very very above average in looks and as a matter of fact I do turn women’s heads. I have a much easier time getting women’s phone numbers than do most of the guys I know. I simply don’t have a lot of the problems with women that many of my friends complain about. That said, I’m very frustrated, because I crave a dominant women. I mean I really crave this intensely. The truth is non dominant women don’t turn me on, no matter how attractive they are. The thing is I like women who are naturally dominant to the core.  The thing is I want a woman who is naturally dominant, but who has a good character. I have a very good character, I am not conceited, in spite of the things I described above. I am just aware of things, as they are. I am actually quite humble in spirit, and I don’t understand how any intelligent person is not humble in spirit. I truly crave an extremely dominant woman. This is not a curiosity, this is truly what I desire.

40. I am a 45 year old (Virgo) caucasian guy, entrepreneur, business owner, borderline work-a-holic, very Alpha (apparently 1.0 since I do have a hard time with a girl that is so unavailable and unreliable (no other way to say it). I have very monogomous tendencies because I don’t put extreme effort in until I find someone I know I could really fall for.  Stupid I know, but with this one, oh how I did.  Since last October (2014), I have been seeing, off and on, a very beautiful and independent (to the exact definition you have listed) younger black woman (Cancer sign) who is naturally voluptuous and a nurse/model and is 20 years younger than me.  I know for a fact that she has also been seeing another guy and has other guy “friends” as well that she spends time with, she says only in group settings.  She says, well “I am attractive, I can’t help that guys notice me.”  Anyway, she will see me a couple days a week, but we don’t always have sex.  I sometimes wonder if it’s kind of a little bit of a sugar daddy thing even though I’ve only helped her with 3-4 small bills, and take her out to eat when we meet, nothing extravagant.  She actually moved in with me twice in early December and middle of March, but it only lasted a week both times because of suspicions I had and confronted her about.  However, after a week or so of not talking, she has always contacted me again saying she wants to get together.  I can’t figure it out.  I would rather she says, “We’re just not right for eachother and move on”.  Honestly, I can’t stop thinking about her when I’m not with her.  She is everything I want except that her unreliable, independent 25 lifestyle drives me insane.  Sometimes I think, why am I miserable without her and she is not if I have everything she needs and can provide for her. House, nice car, I work out and am more athletic and muscular and in better shape than the younger guys I referred to earlier she is “friends” with. So it’s evidently the personality she likes and not so much looks that is the reason with them. I have what she needs and has said she wants, but she continues to instead opt for living paycheck to paycheck with horrible credit. Ok?  I just feel that is she moved in and actually gave it a chance to see how she wouldn’t have the financial and work stress anymore of her current situation and we could sleep together every night that I would grow on her and she would become very comfortable and satisfied.  I have a feeling I know what you are going to say, but I hope not.    And yes I know ignoring her and not hounding her is the only thing that will keep her coming back since we are not exclusive.  And yes, when I realize it’s at an urgent stage, I don’t call, text or beg.  So far, she comes back every time, but just for a short time each time.  Is there any hope to prove in time that I can be a non-needy alpha and lure back this independent goddess?  Anyway, I’m ready (I hope)…..dish it!

41. Even an independent 25 year old hot female who was in a year long relationship with her previous ex until last August is going to want to have another monogamous relationship again right? So if I am currently in the 3-4 FB circle that she keeps alive after bouts of NC by me, would that possibly mean she will consider moving back in a third time with me if I had some alpha 1.0 moments in the past but consistently not anymore since I have been following the BG strategies?

42. You have oneitis. Snap out of it.

43. Strong independent women are the Worst ones for us men to date.

44. Wow… so I’m obscenely bored at work or I never would have read this article. Or felt compelled to comment.
    Nothing against the author here, but if you found this helpful… you should probably just get off the internet and go spend some time getting to know yourself. If you are over the age of say, 25 and you don’t know your personality, or you need to be told what personality meshes with yours I really think you need to pay more attention to yourself and the people you choose to spend your time with.
    Not intending to be critical or hurtful but jeepers…

    And Steve B …. move on dude. She’s not for you.

45. Now with so many women today that are very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, and very greedy, really speaks for itself. No wonder why good single men like us Can’t meet a good woman anymore these days. Bring back the women of the good old days which definitely were a lot better than today.

46. I agree with all your classifications, but disagree with the statistics of the distribution of Dominant, Submissive and Independent females.  At least, in the Pacific Northwest, where I grew up and still live, the distribution is considerably different.  As well, I come from an East Coast Jewish family and will say the distribution also is considerably different based on that demographic.  I grew up with a very dominating Jewish mother, who I would even go as far as to classify as Dominant Plus.  However, my very tough East Coast Brooklyn Jewish grandmother I would even put into a new category as Totalitarian or Dominant Ultra .. Haha, I love being able to create classifications that our modern sociology has overlooked.

    So, as far as the distribution of women in the Seattle area or Pacific NOrthwest, I think this would be more realistic.  Seattle probably has the highest number of feminists in the world and has a very Scandinavian like culture, which promotes a more moderate form of Feminism, but still promotes female superiority and looks down on men as inferior and in a negative manner. However, it is not the militant type of feminism which is more common of East Coast feminists.
    5% Dominant Ultra
    10% Dominant Plus
    50% Dominant (most Seattle women are a bit dominating , but most not overbearing, I would say it is a modest Scandinavian type of Dominance. I would say the dominance of many Seattle women also borderlines on Dominant/Independent)
    25% Independent  (I think Seattle has more truly Independent women than most cities in USA)
    10% Submissive (Very few white women in Seattle could classify as submissive, and the 10% probably would encompass mostly Asian and Middle Eastern populations here).

    Now, if you want to look at the break down of the distribution of female types in the East Coast, like Brooklyn and New Jersey where my family is from it would be a completely different demographic. East Coast feminism may not be as institutionalized or overt like in Seattle, but the type of feminism in the East Coast I believe is much more militant and that the demographics of the people result in a much more vigilant or outgoing population. I feel there are many more alphas in the East Coast, especially among females.
    15% Dominant Ultra  (Secular Jewish, Irish and Italian Population, Some Puerto Ricans Fits Here Well)
    20% Dominant Plus  (Secular Jewish, Irish and Italian, Puerto Ricans, Cubans etc Population Fits Here well)
    35% Dominant (Non-Jews, Non-Irish, Non-Italians and many Cubans/Puerto Ricans Fit Here Well)
    20% Independent (New York/New Jersey really does have a lot of busy-body women who just want to have fun, think Sex and the City and don’t care about drama, but are not submissive).
    10% Submissive (Orthodox Jews, Very Religious and Traditional Catholics, Asians, Middle Eastern and other Minorities will be the majority of the category, along with various other Caucasian groups, but probably makes up the minority of this category)

    If you think my assessment is wrong I’d be happy to hear your opinion.  I’m just sharing my view from being familiar with the two various cultures which I do feel do not match up necessarily to the culture of the rest of this country.  Middle America may very well fit the statistics you have better than the two coasts.

    Also, what is your belief on the Dominant Sub-types I have presented, as dominance can really have quite a range.  You should have met my East Coast Jewish grandmother..   A Needy Alpha would have lasted 10 seconds with her 😀   Me and her had a very bad fallout, as she couldn’t tolerate having a Alpha grandson who would stand up to her dominance.

47. After reading all of these….I want tell you my vision on this thing…
    It’s all about a healthy relationship and if you are a real human being…then for you the relationship should be the boss of all…you,instead of being dominant/submissive male/female…will respect the relationship which doesnt cause a painful breakup…these types of miseries are very common in the western world…but the eastern world is much more happy and the number of break ups are very less thus…it is also the main responsibility of a dominant partner to protect the relationship with love to their sunmissive counterparts…because,at the end of the day,it’s the credit of the submissive partner who gives you the power to rule over her/him…
    I am a switch with 90% times I stay dominant…and my gf is wonderful in her ideas…as I dominate more,I take care most to her…when the roleplay is over.
    It’s more important to maintain love and respect in the relationship than the role you play in bed for your mere sexual desires…

48. these types of miseries are very common in the western world…but the eastern world is much more happy and the number of break ups are very less thus

    Absolutely right. Westerners could learn a lot from our Eastern brothers. (To a degree anyway; there’s a lot Eastern guys do wrong too, but I completely agree with your overall point.)

49. Good article. Why so many women respond having to tell you that you are wrong, not realizing the irony and that that classifies them very well in the system that they say you are incorrect in….?

50. Because many women are reading this article, realizing they’re Dominants, and then taking it as an insult.

    Which it is not.

51. what the fuck am I? i supouse it is obvious, but it is not to me…

    Dominant Women –As soon as she gets into a relationship with a man she starts issuing orders, standards, rules, and parameters, and she expects the guy to follow these to the letter. yes. I do it before relationships. i don’t go on dates, I hang out with guys, and we start to spend more and more time together, and when I feel we both wanna do stuff friends don’t do, I give heads up with the speech – “like, I don’t have sex in the first dunno.. 3-6 months (it’s a lie but I don’t wanna be with someone who is just looking for a good fuck. so if he is, he will move on after this sentence).. i don’t do fuck buddy, shallow relationships.. etc.. I will not stop being friends with my exes or other people because of you and I don’t need you to do it either.” and if the guy is still there, he is acts more comfortable with me, he starts to open up because games and sex are off the table. so I can chill and take my rules off the table so we can be whatever we become. because rules are not important anymore, he gets the idea of me. what he do with that knowledge is his decision
    drama-mode – I have high drama mode, like major drama, but only in specific situations. can’t  stand if he is acting like a victim, or lie about his life, choices, people he is friends (or more) with. my reaction is – find your balls to stand up to want you don’t like, what you love, what you have with someone else, with your problem with me, or go away. I feel disgust when I feel I have bigger balls than them. Either I will not do something that hurts him, either I will. if I do it I will tell him and we can talk about will I do that again or not. we can talk. but it is my decision. because we need to know can we or not be together with the real ourselves. So I expect the same. he to tell me how he lives his life, if I say im ok, that’s it. if I am not ok its his decision will he change that or not for me. if he will not, I will have to decide do I wanna stay in that relationship or not. and I always choose to stay. the drama is when I ask to explain the reasons for something or ask if that something exist and the reponse in my world is something that cowards do.
    Submissive Women – Submissives are the very loose female equivalent of a beta…but not really. Submissives prefer a man to take charge. They are most comfortable with a strong man who is the boss at least most of the time. – true. like that he is in charge all the time, so if sometimes I like to try to be in charge, like play with that, but if somethings is not right he will take the charge again and decite with me can I try to play with it again some other time. and I am not talking about sex. I am talking about everyday situations. I like to lead some times so I can show him something new or cool or nice or to play awhile. but it is just game, all the time he is in charge. also I feel lost sometimes and need him to take my hand and lead me try that area. it is realy rear when it happens but it do, and if can not lead me try it, Im off. and like to challenge a man to check if he is still in charge by being bad or playing dominant or acting like a man with him like – who has the bigger balls. it feels for us like we are playing on a sharp edge. it is exiting but always dangerous if I beat him in the wrong game and sometimes if he wins the wrong one. can he overpower me in the real world like in the bed, or he is mentally weak for me. and, I like being sub in sex. very much. bad sub. he needs to make me his sub. if he is weak, the game is lost.
    Independent Women – they are so excited with their own lives, their own career or friends or school or passions or hobbies or whatever, They tend to be very busy, all over the place, non-stop, go-go-go gals. – yes and it is one of major reasons I have drama mode in relationships. i don’t cut the time I spend with them to do something else. no. I do it in the time when we are not planning to see each other. but it is still a problem. the way i go somewere with or without him, the energy i have, always go, do, jump, fly, run, if you don’t wanna, i will go but will come back to you. the way I talk the way I smile the way men come to introduce themselves to me, the way i don’t let my boyfriend to step in because I can take care of it alone with “I have a boyfriend, not interested, move along.” the way I meet new people easy, the way he feels I don’t need him, the way I stand in the opposite side of the room when we are together (but I always look at him, I always show people I am his, I always go to him to kiss him or let him posesess me so people know I am his, to check is he still ok with me being on the other side of the room, and to finaly take him to the bathroom because I am always hungry for sex)
    They often have high sex drives too – can not point out just how much. it is never enough. it is like what is food to 300lbs people.
     
    It’s also hard for independents to stay with one man for very long, or at least stay monogamous. – realy hard. never cheated someone, but I did broken relationships that were in the pont – “I love you wanna live with you” – “sorry, I like someone else, have to go, call me when you are over me so we can be friends, I still love you and you are my family, just not in romantic/sex way, all the best”

52. You are a Dominant. A classic, quintessential one who has deluded herself about who she is and what she wants. I’d also bet money you’re over age 33.

    – You say you have a high sex drive, but force new men to wait a long time for sex.

    – You blatantly lie to new men about what you want to sound more strong, independent, and societally acceptable.

    – You have mountains of relationship rules, are completely inflexible about what you want, tell men exactly what to do or you dump them, love to take charge, love to lead, but then get turned off when the man doesn’t take charge.

    Classic Dominant. Classic confused modern-day woman.

    I strongly suggest you read this.

53. I am 22 and about to go in bed, here is 2 in the morning. Will read latter :*

54. Wow! You’re only 22(!) and you’re this dominant and conflicted already? Other than the I-love-drama part, everything you said reads verbatim like a 35 year-old woman (that’s not compliment).

    You must have had a very interesting childhood.

55. Ok.. Some vaguely interesting desciptions of personality dynamics in this post. However, “she is a woman so it will still be some drama”? Honestly, your post seems indeed very biased and inflexible.

    Its a shame, because typologies might be interesting. I suggest you read some more about different personality theories, e.g. Big five? And also get into sociocultural implications of distribution of gender roles.

    Bests,

    Sara

56. “she is a woman so it will still be some drama”? Honestly, your post seems indeed very biased and inflexible.

    I state empirical fact regardless of if it’s popular or not. Women tend to be more dramatic in relationships than men. True or false? You know the answer. That’s all I’m saying. If we’re going to pretend that women never do drama, no one is going to get anywhere with solving the problems between us.

     

57. Hello. I read both your posts and found out that my husband is an alpha and I’m an independent submissive since I only submit behind closed doors. I was hoping to inform you that there are women who fit more than one of your catagories seeing as you refer to more then just personality traits. If you include the bedroom it gets more complicated. Seeing as you add three more types (submissive dominant and switch.) to your list but it’s nice to know that I truly am an independent woman and can still be a true submissive behind closed doors.

58.  If you include the bedroom it gets more complicated. Seeing as you add three more types (submissive dominant and switch.) to your list but it’s nice to know that I truly am an independent woman and can still be a true submissive behind closed doors.

    I don’t think you have read in much depth of what Black Dragon has written in these classifications.  It sounds like you are a “Pure Independent“, because you are merely submitting just for sexual pleasure rather than submitting to please or submitting because you enjoy having male authority over you.   I don’t believe Black Dragon’s classifications about “women” have to do with their sexual behavior , although, obviously, being an alpha female may make you more prone to have more prowess in bedroom encounters. Some alpha females have more testosterone and exhibit some male-like traits. Sexually charged alpha females tend to like to dominate in the bedroom. Independents I would think can swing either way. Submissives will always be submissive.

    However, there are plenty of alpha and independent females who can act very submissive for that 20 minute episode of sex and then back to being the dominating brute or the free lifestyle, no non-sense independent woman.   Ironically, I have met many dominating women who try to act all sweet and gentle the moment they want to get laid.

    When you say you are submissive is that just mean submissive in sexual engagement or do you actually give the authority over to the man in every day affairs of life?     That would be what gives you the true “behavioral” or “psyche” of what Black Dragon is referring to as a “Independent“.

    I do agree that some women do exhibit hybrid behaviors, but most women I think misclassify themselves, as I feel you are doing.

    This is just my assessment from reading many of BD’s blog posts.

59. What Yonatan said. You have to leave the bedroom out of it.

60. I am a needy Alpha in search of a normal submissive woman.They are the best for long term relationships.
    Also,I’m a controling guy with passive tactics.Yet i promise myself not to be hurtful and/or an unjust one !!.

61. According to this, I would be a former Submissive who has grown into more Independent ways. I have always tended to gravitate towards men that are similar to me, that are cool with how I am. They need to be loyal and making effort, but let me do my own thing without trying to tie me down to standards or rules. So far, so good!

62. This article was quiet funny at some parts and interesting. I find it absolutely silly for anyone criticizes this author for “categorizing people.” It would be impossible to study human behaviors if you weren’t able to sort people into categories.

     

    I agree with Kimmers! I am an independent but I am submissive at times. Sometimes I submit to needy alpha males, but they eventually become too overwhelming and I cut them off.

     

    Question: Dominant women are addicted to power, but I noticed many are submissive in bed. Does the desire to be controlled turn them on? If they are dominated by someone who does as they wish, are they necessarily considered controlled?

    Might be off topic but I’m curious! 😉

     

63. This article was quiet funny at some parts and interesting. I find it absolutely silly for anyone criticizes this author for “categorizing people.” It would be impossible to study human behaviors if you weren’t able to sort people into categories.

    Those are just the Dominants getting upset with me. They’re not dumb. They know that categorization is necessary for analysis. They just don’t want to hear themselves described accurately.

    Again, I have no problems with Dominants at all. Some of my favorite FBs are Dominants, as well as some of the best sex I’ve had in my life!

    Question: Dominant women are addicted to power, but I noticed many are submissive in bed.

    Some are, some aren’t. It depends on the person.

    Does the desire to be controlled turn them on? If they are dominated by someone who does as they wish, are they necessarily considered controlled?

    As as been described in this thread already, during sex all the rules change, so you can’t apply what happens during sex to any other part of life.

    I’m a super chill Alpha 2.0 who never, ever tells a woman what to do. However, during sex, I’m the most dominant Alpha 1.0 in the universe. I’m constantly barking orders and I love it…but just during sex. Once the sex is over I could care less what she does with her life.

    Sex is different.

     

64. Hello,

    Sorry if my english is not good, because it’s not my native language, I speak french, but I understand everything you write.

    I’m a submissive woman.

    I’m a type of “child-woman”, I have a baby face, I look delicate and I’m very feminine. A lot of men told me that it’s unusual to see a white western women who act feminine like me. It’s just the way I am.

    I almost dated only latinos and arabs in my twenties before to marry a muslim arab. I’m not converted to Islam, but I like how a muslim man protect the woman. I like to be the property of my male. Their type of strong face and dark eyes, turn me on. I need to be dominated in bed, but I don’t like BDSM at all. A real man don’t hurt and beat the women, he protect her, he take care on her, and it’s what the arabs do. They like real women because they are real men.

    As you can imagine, in the Western society, I don’t fit in the feminist ideal of the “strong independent woman”.

    Most women I know are dominants crazy control freak. The dominants women HATE me. I represent everything they HATE and don’t want to be.

    They hate me also because the men like me and they are jealous. Dominants women bitch at me always. They act like I would be idiot and retarded. Dominants women harrass me and could kill me if the murder was legal.

    I suffered a lot of the violence of the dominants women when I was younger, but now I don’t care. A lot of these dominants women are fat and unatractives. It’s nothing to help themself, attract the men. They are jealous of me. When they keep a man, they are always complaining. (He is not at home enough, he work to much, he don’t change de diapers and don’t cook enough, etc.) They look always angry. One day I tell them “if a woman is too feminist, the relationship can’t work. Men and women are not identicals, they are complementary”. The whole room became silent…

    In fact, I think that all women are like me. All women are submissives and like the same type of men I like. All women like to be dominated in bed (this explain the succes of the dumb book and movie 50 shades of grey). But they don’t want to admit it.

    All the women are horny for the dominant latin lover and the mediterannean type with black hairs and dark eyes. When I dated latinos the others women wanted to steal my man in front of my face, and the competition to keep these men was horrible (as the latinos are cheaters and womanizers in the first place, they liked it.) Even the women who pretend to be “strong independent feminists” want to be f… by the macho man and try to reform him as a “good guy”.

    The only difference between me and these “independents” and “dominants” women is that I ASSUME who I am and what I like. I know what I want and what turn me on. I don’t tell the opposite of what I really think and do.

    I think that your text have good points, but you’re wrong about the “independent” women: They doesn’t exist.

    No, there is no such thing as an “independent” woman. (If she look independent, maybe she is just not into him.)

    Independent women exist only in the movies and the clips of Madonna and Taylor Swift. They are a myth like the unicorns, and the model all women want to be, but they are not.

    All women are submissives, ALL without any exception, even the “dominant” who try to convince herself that she is “independent”. She is not, she is insecure and anxious, and why she act that way.

    There is some women who assume their feminity and women who try to be someone they are not.

65. Nice article.. i was totally suprised when i read about the independent part. It was like all over me. Independent women really exit. They dont depend much on others when it comes to happiness. They like living life to the fullest in there own way. They dont prefer getting emotionally attached. They are very optimistic move on go on kind of people. They dont like to dominate others neither like to be dominated.They do exist and im one of them.

66. Lol, good post. I’m def an independent. It’s nice when someone puts to words things you have noticed. I hate the “I’m a strong woman” trend bc I have found most of those women aren’t very strong and you’re right they need to be in a relationship and they need to boss people around.

    I am by all accounts successful, and even though I have friends I tend to be a loner mainly bc I fill my schedule with a lot of different things or I always have some goaI am trying to meet. I am searching for my Alpha. Like you wrote I have tried relationships but I always get bored around the 1 month mark.

    Sometimes I avoid dating a guy all together bc I don’t want to hurt him.

    I have connected with the “needy alpha” as you call them but have gotten bored with them as well and I find their demands taxing on me.

67. It’s interesting that the majority of women are “dominants”, but the submissive women are called “feminine”. Being an independent woman, I’ve thought about this and concluded that dominants are actually the feminine ones, since they are the majority. Their traits should determine what is feminine, or not. Submissive women are definitely weak, and non-entities, in my world view. As for being independent, I rather enjoy a life that doesn’t include either controlling other people (i.e., men), or being controlled by other people (i.e., anybody). Alphas rock!

     

68. So what do you call a woman with all the submissive traits but a high sex drive and is very confident in herself. She also loves her hobbies and is go go go always busy. But make no mistake is a sub and even know she has a high sex drive and is go go go is also VERY loyal to one man. My wife and I have been together 16 years and married for 13. We married young and had two boys young. When we met there was nutty nutty crazy fireworks connection wise sex wise and it was just weird. Like a flipping movie and hasn’t changed in 16 years. I am very much a Alpha but can show a little needy Alpha from time to time. But 90% very Alpha. I know my wife very well after 16 years and she is very much a feminine sub. But she never ever has had a headache or been to tired for sex not kidding like ever. She has a solid sex drive. And she is so go go go. But she has never shown she likes to flirt lots or needs other men sexually at all. Truly she has been the most loyal person I have ever met. Not just to me but to her family and friends as well. So can subs have high sex drives and be go go go. She told me the high sex drive comes from the fact she get off every time we have sex. I have never left her not fully satisfied and so why wouldn’t she want it as much as me. Can you make a higher sex drive in a woman due to being better at sex? As in I will do ANYTHING in bed to make sure she climaxes. I use all parts of my body and mouth to make sure she is just as satisfied as me. I read this article and read the sub part and that was so her. But then read the high sex drive and go go go of the indie and that’s also her. But not the flirting or needing attention from other men.

69. So what do you call a woman with all the submissive traits but a high sex drive and is very confident in herself.

    A Submissive.

    The three types have nothing to do with sex drive or self confidence.

     

70. Thanks for the response.

71. By what I’ve read so far this blog seems to be very open and understanding with comments so I’m not going to sugar coat anything but please say if I’m over steping things.

    I have to call b.s on this I’m afraid. I understand this is your blog and I’m assuming everything you write is your opinion. Now maybe I’ve just answered my own qestion here but where do you get your finding from?

    I’m mainly talking about the percentage figures you mention. According to you:
    60-65% of women are dominant
    25-30% of women are submissive
    10% of woman are independent

    Im very interested in knowing where you got these figures from as they sound made up.

72. Im very interested in knowing where you got these figures from as they sound made up.

    Yes, I completely made them up. I pulled them out of my ass with no data whatsoever and posted them on this blog and presented them as 100% fact, hoping that none of the thousands upon thousands of people who read this blog would figure it out. And now, damn, because you’re smarter than everyone else, you caught me. Damn.

    If you really want to believe the above, you’re welcome to it. But if you want to look at this rationally, then,

    – Those figures are estimates. That’s why I repeatedly used the word “about” to describe the numbers. I doubt very much that they’re exact. I happen to think they’re reasonably close, but it’s possible they may not be.

    – The sources for my estimates are, in this order: psychological studies I’ve read (focusing on numbers of people of specific personality types), divorce and breakup statistics I’ve read, discussions with marital/relationship counselors and psychologists, the experiences of thousands of men whom I’ve communicated with on these topics over the last several years, and my own experience.

    Could my estimates be wrong? Sure. Are my estimates WAY off? I doubt it.

73. Yes, I completely made them up. I pulled them out of my ass with no data whatsoever and posted them on this blog and presented them as 100% fact, hoping that none of the thousands upon thousands of people who read this blog would figure it out. And now, damn, because you’re smarter than everyone else, you caught me. Damn.

    If you really want to believe the above, you’re welcome to it. But if you want to look at this rationally, then,

    – Those figures are estimates. That’s why I repeatedly used the word “about” to describe the numbers. I doubt very much that they’re exact. I happen to think they’re reasonably close, but it’s possible they may not be.

    – The sources for my estimates are, in this order: psychological studies I’ve read (focusing on numbers of people of specific personality types), divorce and breakup statistics I’ve read, discussions with marital/relationship counselors and psychologists, the experiences of thousands of men whom I’ve communicated with on these topics over the last several years, and my own experience.

    Could my estimates be wrong? Sure. Are my estimates WAY off? I doubt it.

    Thanks for the reply. Going by your response I clearly hit a nerve. Sorry I hurt your feelings, I tried to present my question with the least amount of insult. I guess I didn’t try very hard. Thanks for the compliment though. I doubt I’m smarter than everyone else but its nice of you to say.

    Anyway thanks for the reply. You answered my question better than I hoped.

74. Yes, you hit a nerve and hurt my feelings. I’m a very emotional, sensitive man, and you really need to be careful when you make challenging comments like that. I just can’t handle that kind of stuff from tough guys like you.

75. i am sure a dominant female

76. I enjoyed reading this post.

    I think it might be time to stop referring to humang beings on the basis of animalistic pack hierarchy… We are not wolves, we din’t share any of their social structure, and even in that context the “alpha” male wolf is often simply the father of a tight family group.. A very incestuous “daddy”, therefore…

    Although the descriptions of the personalities mentioned in this post frankly seem to do justice to reality, in my opinion the problem is with the terminology. How many guys can we spot out there, who read these men-blogs and, as a consequence, freak out and feel the need to fluff up their feathers to say “alpha male here”?
    When we call men Alpha, Beta etc, it is like automatically assigning them a value, even if it is just alphabetical (Alphas come first, Beta must be therefore less valuable). And to be honest, I think guys who like to think of themselves as alpha, have a need to undermine this male figure they call the beta dude, just to make themselves feel better.

    People have complex personalities, and saying that the true alpha men lead happy lives, and are ” the happy” guys, whereas the poor Beta will inevitably be surrounded by dramas, or be unhappy is quite simplistic perhaps.

    Men who like the company of a long term woman in their life, will probably invest more efforts in building a strong relationship, rather than remaining single for ever. And rather than “not caring” for what their woman does with her time, they might eve take an interest. These men are the ones who probably will NOT be single and miserable at 50 (when the humping carousel of women has dried up for those “alpha” who now need a Viagra to get a boner, believe me, that time will come for them too!). They are the ones who probably will have passed on their genes to the next generation… They are probably the ones who will be strong leaders of their family groups, just like the leader in the pack of wolves (if we really must make an animalistic parallel), because they were reliable, emphatic, and trustworthy…

    So, maybe calling anyone a Beta is an insult, or has become an insult? And maybe not just to the men, but to all those women who still might think that the so called “beta” traits are not a second choice at all… And such women don’t necessarily need to be insufferable domineering bitches who need a loser to jerk around… Although, such women most certainly exist!

    People in stable (happy) relationship have far more sex than players, who have to go out and hunt for someone every week end, were as functioning couples have guaranteed sex at least once a week or more. And they have sex for longer in life: your life partner will be happy to give you a blow job even when your scrotum stretches down to your knees, I doubt that anyone else will by that stage!!

    I feel sorry for all those people of our generation (40-45) who were fed the lie that if you settle down with one person you are the loser. I know so many if them that are now approaching 50 and are bitter, disilluded and alone… Even those men who were expert seducers, and those women who were very successful in acquiring sex with quality males earlier in life. The ship has sailed!!

    Just to clarify, we don’t believe in, and are not in, a strictly sexually monogamous relationship, we have allowed each other to have FBs on the side throughout our lives because to limit yourself to one person for the rest of your life would bore anyone to death. Even though I must say that with age the appetite for external partners diminishes naturally, having access to variety has kept our sex drive very strong. But we think that it is vital to establish a ONE bond that is above all others, the one person that you know will be there for you even if you have an accident and your dick falls of, or you become a quadruplegic! We are there for each other, no matter what, and we have been together for two decades (child free, by choice).

    Another thing I did not find clear, is how comes that when the “true alpha” mentioned in the article have multiple partners who are allowed in turn the same freedom, then it is because the guy is non-outcome dependant, but if a beta’s partner has extramarital sex then he is being cheated on? People have different ammounts of sex drive and I think that if one partner has more sex drive than the other, they should be free to fill the gap with more partners, whether it is the male or the female.

    PS: I am Italian and my English might be imperfect, sorry…

77. One more thing… Maybe pointless to say but…
    The aging 50+ alphas will also find out that at one point their seduction tactics will be futile on the 18-40 bangworthy category of women they desire… And the only females who would consider them for sex (in exchange for at least some form of emotional or financial commitment) are the 40+ dominant bitches they despise, who have just come out of a divorce with a beta who fathered their children… Who is the loser then? I just wish more guys could see and plan ahead, beyond the length of their dicks…
    And I wish for women to stop thinking they can have it all and for ever, some of your expectations are totally ridiculous!

78. I think it might be time to stop referring to humang beings on the basis of animalistic pack hierarchy

    Read above about what I said regarding the “You shouldn’t categorize people!” argument.

    I think guys who like to think of themselves as alpha, have a need to undermine this male figure they call the beta dude, just to make themselves feel better.

    There are some men like this, yes. Those are the unhappy men with ego problems.

    saying that the true alpha men lead happy lives, and are ” the happy” guys, whereas the poor Beta will inevitably be surrounded by dramas, or be unhappy is quite simplistic perhaps.

    Simplistic, and generally accurate.

    These men are the ones who probably will NOT be single and miserable at 50

    Incorrect. Read excuse number 1 right here. Lifetime marriage doesn’t exist for this generation, regardless of betas or Alphas who who takes an interest in whom.

    People in stable (happy) relationship have far more sex than players

    Completely incorrect, and I’m not sure what you’re smoking. Please Google the stats on this. People in long-term monogamous relationships have very little sex compared to players. It’s not even close.

    The only time people in monogamous relationships have lots of sex is during the first few months of NRE. After that a sharp decline occurs.

    your life partner will be happy to give you a blow job even when your scrotum stretches down to your knees

    And now you’re gone completely off the rails. The odds are overwhelming that your wife will say “ew blowjobs are gross!” within 10 years of the marriage (if it lasts that long). The reason so many married men cheat is because their wives won’t give them blowjobs any more.

    All you’re stating here are untrue Disney fantasies.

    Just to clarify, we don’t believe in, and are not in, a strictly sexually monogamous relationship, we have allowed each other to have FBs on the side throughout our lives because to limit yourself to one person for the rest of your life would bore anyone to death.

    Wonderful. A long-term serious relationship where you’re allowed to fuck other people on the side is the best (or least-worst) option. Thank you for proving my point.

    The aging 50+ alphas will also find out that at one point their seduction tactics will be futile on the 18-40 bangworthy category of women they desire… And the only females who would consider them for sex (in exchange for at least some form of emotional or financial commitment) are the 40+ dominant bitches they despise

    Not if those 50+ Alphas make sure they look like Johnny Depp, Robert Downey Jr, Liam Neeson, etc, all of whom are over 50. A man’s personal appearance as he ages is well within his control.

79. I hope you take my conversations as a positive exchange, I am not here to offend you in any way, and you are clearly an intelligent person.

    You state that people should not be categorised, but then you also said that some somewhere that people can me more steongly or less dominant but they are still dominant. Instead my point was that people’s lives have many shperes and one can be an assertive leader alpha in their professional lives, while displaying submissive behaviours in bed, and vice versa. One can be a follower in his professional life, an alpha in bed, and a gregarious pack member in their leasure life (e.g. sports/mates). So any of those categories may combine together in the same person.

    I may have an optimistic (“dysney”) view of serious relationships (i.e. marriege type of committment) but you in turn have a very negative view if them. I know that the official stats on divorces are dark,people are all over the place, we are living in confusing times… But I was referring to happy/fulfilling unions. There are hordes of married people out there who don’t live a strictly monogamous union anymore, they have made their own rules and have some sort of arrangement that works for them which allow for some slack. Old fashioned marriage proposed by the church has proven to be a failure, yes I agree with you. But nowadays you can make your union into whatever works for you both, you just have to find the right woman (open minded). Sex does slow down after a while, but again, you are just looking at the stats, in a fulfilling union it slows down from 3 times a day to 2-3 times a week, which I think any men (unless he is in his 20s) should be happy with. It slows down with age as well, twice a week is pretty acceptable when you are in your 40s.

    Blow jobs are one of the greatest joys a woman can give to her man (and vice versa) and if you are in bed with one that seems repulsed my doing that, you should get dressed and walk, not marry her! If a FB doesn’t go down on me, then that is the last time he hears from me…
    There are many people (of both sexes) who are not very sexual, and you just have to try and affiliate yourself with women who like sex and enjoy doing it!

    A men in his 50 may as well be youthful in his appearance (let’s leave celebrities out, there are other factors at play when you look at the famous), but that is like a car which has a great outer shell, the underlying kilometres are still there under the waxed bonnet! Not many women in their 30s would consider a man in his 50+ simply because even if he is an elegant and well presented gentlemen, he is still much older, and after 10 years he will be 60+, a stage where health issues start to arise while she is still only 40 ish and now that women are financially more independent, who needs that?

    I don’t know how old you are built imagine you must be in your mid 30s. A lot of men are now keeping themselves very well physically, because having material resources is not enough to acquire good quality women (who are able to obtain resources by themselves). So imagine yourself, and other sexually attractive men of your age… What hope does a 50 or 60 year old player has to compete against you and your fellow well kept men in their 30s or arly 40s for the attentions of a good quality 25-35 yo woman? Zero…
    So what I ment is that the harsh reality will hit men of your generation in the face only once you get to that stage in life and realise that the play field has dried almost up and you have to settle with lower quality women to have any hope ti get laid… Whereas those who settled earlier had a chance to choose higher quality serious relationship women while they (men) were in the prime of their life.

    I am sure I will read your response with interest.

80. I am not here to offend you in any way

    I don’t get offended. That’s the rest of society.

    Instead my point was that people’s lives have many shperes and one can be an assertive leader alpha in their professional lives, while displaying submissive behaviours in bed, and vice versa.

    I admitted that in the comments above. During sex, the rules do change. Yes. But that’s the only time they change.

    There are hordes of married people out there who don’t live a strictly monogamous union anymore, they have made their own rules and have some sort of arrangement that works for them which allow for some slack.

    That’s what this entire blog is about. I think you need to do some more reading around here. I am for long-term, nonmonogamous relationships. Not monogamy, but also not being a player, since neither of those choices work long-term.

    Blow jobs are one of the greatest joys a woman can give to her man (and vice versa) and if you are in bed with one that seems repulsed my doing that, you should get dressed and walk, not marry her!

    You’re not understanding. During the initial dating phase, women LOVE blowing their men. After they get married too. But over time, starting at about the three-year mark in a monogamous marriage, they start getting turned off by doing that to their husbands. They remained turned off to the concept of blowjobs until they A) cheat on their husband with another man or B) divorce their husband and start dating someone new again. Then they love blowjobs all over again…until they get bored with them again. It’s biological and how women work.

    The reason you probably still like giving blowjobs to your husband after so long is because you’re following the system I’m describing by never getting monogamous. You’re proving exactly what I’m saying which is why I love that you’re saying it here so other readers can see yet another example of what I’m talking about.

    My point is if you recommend to men that they get married, you must ALSO clearly state, “But don’t get monogamous, or else it won’t work.”

    Not many women in their 30s would consider a man in his 50+ simply because even if he is an elegant and well presented gentlemen

    You are absolutely wrong, and this is likely because you’re speaking from your little isolated world of long-term married people. I know numerous hot women who are not only under 30, but under 25, who regularly fuck men over 50 and enjoy it. However, as I said, these men are not fat and present well. Most of these men also have higher incomes, which I expect men over 50 to have anyway. And none of these men are celebrities.

    I’m almost 44 and I have sex with women this young all the time, and will continue to do so well into my 50s, to the chagrin of older married women like you.

    Your heart is in the right place, but if you’re going to post on a fact-based blog like this, you really need to check the facts before you make defensive assertions.

81. Not defensive, just curious….

    I did not read your ENTIRE philosophy, only the two posts about categories of men/women, and the fact that these two articles seem to present alphas as good and betas as losers. I am curios to know what would you then call someone who is submissive in bed but dominant in his daily lives (man)? You said that in sex things are different? There are plenty such men out there who are highly succesful, well paid, handsome men, who pay mistresses to humiliate them, (but only in a strictly sexual realm)? What are they in your analysis? Alpha, beta?

    If you are advocating for long term, non strictly monogamous relationships, rather than a monogamous trap or a player trap, then I totally agree with you! Good on doin that and spreading the wisdom!

    And I simply added that in my opinion, the way you achieve that is by concentrating on finding a good quality, open minded partner ERLIER ON, when you have maximum choice, and then concentrating on finding good FBs on the side AFTER… Just my opinion.

    I disagree on the fact that women do blow job just in their first three years. Some just do love it, as some love certain things in bed and others don’t. You must have been unlucky, we have opened our relationship after about 8-10 years of monogamy, as it took time to build trust and to be honest with each other about how our sexual needs, and during those 10 years I kept enjoying doing that every time! Its just tastes, not how women are built/designed.

    I am 37 and good looking, I don’t consider myself very young, nor old. I too have sex with guys who are about your age, and I also like to bed the 25 yo stallions every now and again. All it takes nowadays is post some sexy pics on RHP, for a decent looking woman to find a hot FBs. But I have no illusions that the 25 yo male will consider me for a long term union, it is just NDA fun; instead it appears that men still think they will have lots of opportunities or even rights to do so. I have to keep saying polite “no” to men in their 60s who then get offended if I respectfully decline, and when they ask why and I am honest, saying they are too old for me, they go from offended to outright pissed off and call me “close minded” and “prejudiced”, saying ” age is just a number” etc…. Delusional!

    The 25 yo women who you are referring to, who seek men twice rheir age, are those who are attracted to the resources (higher income as you put it) the gold diggers / sugar babies / foreign girlfriends acquired through permanent visa in exchange for sex, or the ones who are too bimbos to find a decent paying job for themselves. Those are not high quality females partners in my humbke opinion, they are good to stroke your cock with… And that is all you are going to get as an older player…

    That’s all… I did not come here to criticise you in particular, nor your philosophy as I have not read ALL of your blog. I just wanted to present a question mark to the men who read your blog and these posts, who might find out their lifestyle screwed them only when it is too late. Some of them will be lucky and will continue this lifestyle for a very very long time (maybe you will be one of those lucky ones!), but the majority might not, and as you said, the player lifestyle does not pay in the long run. I agree completely! 🙂

82. PS – I don’t “smoke” anything… Lol…

83. There are plenty such men out there who are highly succesful, well paid, handsome men, who pay mistresses to humiliate them, (but only in a strictly sexual realm)? What are they in your analysis? Alpha, beta?

    Alpha. Like I said, how you are in bed (and only in bed) doesn’t “count.” There are indeed Alphas who like to be submissive in bed.

    I pretty much agree with everything else you said.

84. I think many of the ideas you expressed are really interesting because they are not mainstream, and yet they pin point a reality which is not openly talked about.
    I have been a little outraged by some of the claims done by a certain dude who was supposed to come to Australia to do a conference or something, and he was asked to go away. His views are a little offensive and some of the things he claims are criminal! So I kinda jumped online and discovered this whole “manosphere”, which I was unaware of. I do need to keep reading to fully inform myself.
    I both strongly agree and strongly disagree with some of the points made by some of these bloggers…
    Communication is important….

    Good luck with your blog.
    🙂

85. That is an extremely simplified view of female traits isn’t it. None of which you actually back up in anyway not a single actual study was quoted just one little mans idea of what women are. Its so simple it sounds childish. One type of female bullies, a set that is stereotypical female, and a type that is good for an easy lay.

86. That is an extremely simplified view of female traits isn’t it.

    Yes. It’s a two page blog post; it must be simplified.

    None of which you actually back up in anyway not a single actual study was quoted just one little mans idea of what women are

    A little man who has had sex with a high number of women over a prolonged period of time in extended relationships, who has communicated with thousands of other men (and women) all over the world regarding their relationships over the course of almost a decade, and who has thoroughly studied statistics, surveys and psychology regarding sex and relationships.

    So yes, I clearly have no idea what I’m talking about and I’m sure you’re much more of an expert on this topic than me.

    One type of female bullies, a set that is stereotypical female, and a type that is good for an easy lay.

    Completely inaccurate. If that’s seriously what you took away from the above article, you need to go back and re-read it (slowly) and/or work on your reading comprehension. (Now your comment makes more sense.)

87. Again perhaps you should quote these studies you claim you read. My comprehension is just fine. You break females down into 3 types but have no psychological back up for your statements. Your seriously overly simplistic view of the human Psyche is amusing. Again how about an actual published study you read. Not your so called vast amount of sexual experience.

88. I have enjoyed reading all the comments – sure are some fascinating people in the world. I am every single one of those types and then some!

    Cheers x

     

89. Good stuff. I literally don’t have time for dominant chicks, and they know not to fuck with me. I work with one and even though she is nearly a decade younger than me and has the same job title as me, I don’t let her boss me around. Even though this article is 4 years old and I’m sure a lot has been added, I’d like to add four more types of chicks. This is mostly a joke, I don’t judge chicks irl like this (except the “ratchet” category because it is stunningly true lol). But it is a thing I wrote up during my strict MGTOW days when my main hobby was internet trolling lol:

    Trophies = Similar to submissive, only with a little more ego. They don’t do drugs or have tattoos and don’t care about getting them. Trophies start out as common college chicks and then grow to become either mature party girls or ratchets. By 25, if they don’t have kids yet, they will tie down the closest beta they can find so they can be cucked appropriately. If a boy or man is to ever marry, their best choice is the trophy under 25. There is no such thing as a trophy over 25 (cuz then they just become mature party girls) and there is no such thing as a trophy who also has a kid, no matter how young she is. If a chick is a single mother, she is at best a mature party girl, and at worst a succubus.

    Mature party girls aka “basic” = Your definition of independent chicks (even though IMO no one person is completely independent as the government still tells us what to do. We ALL answer to big brother making us all dependent in some aspect). Adding to your definition they also have tattoos but strategically placed ones that don’t look trashy. They are party girls because they do go out, drink and do drugs and while they do admit it, they don’t wear it like a badge of pride. Not dateable since they are still on what a lot of MGTOW call the “cock carousel” and have numerous options when it comes to men, many of which they have unprotected sex with, at least until 30. So when you pick up and hook up that chick from that bar or club who is just sober enough to have a cool conversation with and just wasted enough to have hookup sex with, you are more than likely hitting up a pregnant chick or even worse, a chick who had sex with someone else earlier that day.

    Ratchet = Tattoos with their kids’ names. Significantly over or underweight. Several tattoos in general. Heavy drug use and proud of it. Accuses anyone who hits on them who can’t take care of their kids of “catcalling.” ALWAYS has cigarettes on them. Over 21 and still drinks Four Loko as a pregame drink. Goes to college just for the aid money and pays betas to do their homework for them. Proud of being a single mother. Refers to herself as a “diva” or a “boss” from some city known for partying (Miami and LA are the two biggest cities that they represent). Do not talk to these chicks. They don’t deserve attention. They ARE the downfall of society, as well as their fuckboy counterparts (the weird old fucks who are pushing 50 but still dress like a high schooler, the n***a who sells drugs, has a $50000 car but still uses an EBT card, the PUAfag who thinks hypnotizing chicks into sleeping with him is a legitimate way of getting laid). But trust me, they are not nearly as bad as…

    Succubus = No they are not a myth. Yes they do exist. They are men who have gotten sex changes. They are women who dress, look, and act like men. They are men who dress and act like women. These are the real definition of succubi, and they are the ultimate tempresses. I went out with a succubus once and had to see a therapist about it for five weeks. She seemed innocent enough, a little boyish looking but still feminine enough looking for me so I went for it. We kissed after a date and its dick was harder than mine. It apologized and I accepted cuz I didn’t want to be a prick, but needless to say our relationship was over. If it appears too good to be true, it probably is.

     

90. Blackdragon, first of all, Thank you for a much needed insight in the world of man/woman. I purchased your ebook alphamale 2.0 last week and i wish it was available 10 years ago.. This weekend i have read your blogs and to i don’t know what else to say other than:I have been clueless.A couple of weeks ago my wife told me she was leaving me.we have a four year old todler, two houses, both good jobs and it has exploded..
    We live in Amsterdam,mother Netherlands…when we first met it was Fireworks..we met online, traveled to see each other, the sex was fantastic and within a year she moved in, got married two years later and three years later our Son was born and then slowly everything went wrong.
    .after Reading this blog on the types of women i think it is safe to say she is dominant..not independent although she keeps telling everyone and their neighbours how liberated she is, how independent and how she craves freedom, me time, being alone etc etc..I think it is safe to say after reading you’re book that I am an alpha..an easy going alpha maybe but still an alpha..the problem is that that alpha man for some reason never truly came out at the place he was most needed..outside a successful,creative, powerful yet sentimental sometimes mr taking charge..at home? Not so much..in a few years time I went completely beta

    Everything you described in alpha Male 2.0 happened..less sex after 3,5 years..she Slowly becomming a manager type at home, getting angry like taling to an employee and a complet absensce of sex in the last 1,5 years which caused great insecurity for me at home..outside not so much which in the end led to me having an afair with a hot young colleague because i went mad without sex,mwithout passion. I took charge, was dominant and felt like a man again.

    i am experiental, openminded but for some reason i lost all confidence after a couple of years in the bedroom..it felt obligated, not exciting and i never expereinced great sex again untill the forementoined woman came along..when my wife found out, she said she didn’t feel Anything and that was the final straw in her making the decision..the feelings where gone etc etc.

    i have become a softy esp. Since our Son was born and i didn’t excite her anymore..she didn’t say this directly but I am fully aware of it..My wife and I slowly grew apart even though I love her and our little family. I ended my affair 6 months ago and wanted to fight for it.
    .the sad thing is, we might actually be a couple where an OLTR could have worked..she was allways realy openminded looking back, the problem was, i was not..after Reading your book i realised that was actually the kind of relationship that would have made it great for the both of us..both of us are deceased with social programming about how things should be in a marriage..and i know now that it has been a lie.instead of letting each other enjoy life, passion etc we completely smothered eachother and chocked the life out of what was once something great.
    While we are not in a wartime right now and we actually express how we feel, she is making plans to live her own unicorn disney live looking for that special one and i know that that probably won’t work..i am making plans, writing everything down to alter my life.to change for the better and there is no way in hell I will ever commit the old fashioned way

    .i just wish there was a way of getting back together, not how we used to be the last couple of years but as a V2.0 ..A dominant woman with a troubled past of loss and pain in full butterflymode and an alpha turned into a pleasing pussy who cheated and lied his ass off..and a 4 year old that adores his mom and dad.what a fucking mess.like I said, I wish your knowledge was around 10 years ago..any advice?

91. Sam, your comment is way too long for me to read and I don’t like answering “There this one girl…” questions. My advice is the same as always: move on and go get some new women. If you really want detail on your problem beyond that you’ll have to pay for coaching.

92. So, I’ve read this and the previous post on the types of men and I see a lot of stats thrown around and sweeping sstatements being made.
    My question is, where is the scientific research to back up these numbers and theories?
    For example the last post about how Alphas 2.0 lead happy lives most of the time and how Alphas 1.0 only lead happy lives 60-70% (ish) of the time but you fail to consider that life is not always in our control and unexpected things may happen, it’s unpredictable, not to mention that there’s a difference between being independent and not letting yourself be stood on and being an uncaring cretin with commitment issues.
    I see some major flaws and biased views in your posts, though I must say, they do provide an interesting insight into people’s thought processes.
    Edit, I hope this doesn’t come across too blunt or rude, sorry about that, man.

93. Go up about 20 comments and you’ll see the answer to that question. Here’s a link:

    https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2012/07/29/the-three-types-of-women/#comment-260352

94. blackdragon u make things clear !

95. Comment deleted for violation of Rule Number Five.

96. As a Switch lifestyler I clicked on this link expecting to find an article about Dominants, submissives and fellow Switches. Thank you for a highly entertaining and interesting read. Enjoyed.

97. I found this article fascinating, really great. I love reading ideas from a man’s point of view. Especially when its blunt and well thought out.

    I was always nervous that certain parts of my personality were a bit too classically masculine. Not being needy, being very easy going, and at times avoiding any drama related people. But its just simply being an “Independent“. A description before now I would have never used to portray myself. Because I despised hearing other women who would use the “independent” term incorrectly. Woman whom are close friends and I of courses care about, but have a very high maintenance & demanding side that is hard to always love.

    Plan on checking out more of the posts!

98. 10% of women are very smart. Therefore, being dominant has nothing to do with intelligence if +60% of women are acting dominant….
    Stop BSing yourself about intelligence. Most people by definition are close to average

99. Alphas happily have relationships with all three types of women (Independents and Submissives as OLTRs, MLTRs, or WDs, Dominants as FBs).

     

    In fact, that’s is how it goes.
    I met this Dominatrix a couple years ago, and she — her character, until she didn’t enter Subjecting Mode — gave me the spikiest erections I can recall of.

    However, that’s parentheses. Normality is they are in Subjecting Mode. Which, courtesy by the troops of betas kissing their soles, they end up perceiving as Independent, also called Fair, Mode.
    In other words, whenever you don’t submit to their will they’ll feel you are abusing them :).

    No man equipped with 2 testes can tolerate that.

    She ended up marrying a fellow who posted on her Facebook, “Oh, beautiful, how I’d love you if only you allowed me” (I am not joking or altering his words) before they started seeing each other.

    Needless to say, she was very aroused by me, while she isn’t in the slightest by him.
    But the two of us could not stay together.

    This is a problem of female Dominators: they hardly end in LTRs with a man they really like, because they’re still females, hence attracted by males stronger than them, but can in no way co-exist with anybody but Beties.

100. I am a Black Man. I prefer Black Women. I have never had difficulty getting women. The thing is, the vast majority of black females are not up to my standards. I am very reasonable. I am intelligent, I have sex appeal, and I have always done well. So its reasonable for me to require a woman to be sufficiently intelligent, have sufficient sex appeal, and to be sufficiently functional in life. Life gives us all problems, but I have always managed mine well. so I expect the same in a female counterpart. I am now 50, and I have noticed a steep decline in the average quality of black females in the US. Far too many lack sex appeal and far too many are so loaded with problems (mostly self inflicted), that I can’t have them in my space. Their obesity rates are off the charts.  Their venereal disease rates are off the charts.  Far too many have children.  I had a successful marriage. My spouse is deceased.  I have successfully raised mine, so I am not about to raise someone else’s. I don’t knock men who want to do this, but this is not my choice. And the psychological health of black females in general, has declined most steeply of all. I am referring to black females in the US of course. This includes the African and Caribbean women in the US as well. The things I’ve mentioned applies to them as well, maybe to a slightly lessor degree. I have never mistreated people and never will. This is simply not part of my character or chemistry.  I honestly believe that a major reason for the decline of black females is that, Black Women more so than Black Men, buy into the cultural propaganda of US society. I believe the other major cause of this decline in Black Women, is the rise of the S.I.M.P. subculture among black males. I can’t prove a cause and affect relationship. But I know that the steep decline in the quality of Black Women, in general, is occurring concurrently with the proliferation of a S.I.M.P. subculture among black males. I have noticed that the black S.I.M.P. struggles to get the most basic of black female. I have noticed that S.I.M.P.S. even have a hard time landing the type of black female, who has very little desirability. And the S.I.M.P.S. I know, and there are many, always have dysfunctional relationships with women. I honestly believe that women rise to the level of the standard that good men require. Since S.I.M.P.S. generally lack standards, women have lost their standards or have lost any concept of what standards should be.  Many people  have said that the proliferation of the black male S.I.M.P.  subculture, is a direct consequence of the fact, that 80 percent of black males have been raised by single mothers for the past 2 generations. This makes plenty of sense to me. I am now in a position to start traveling abroad. I will start visiting countries that have large black populations, just to see if the same pathologies are at work there, as we have in the US.

101. I’m a  submissive, I ended up marrying someone who just revealed to me he is submissive and now I understand my inner misery and unhappiness. He want’s me to be a full on dominant woman and it hurts I can’t do it but we have a family and I feel I am going to turn into something ugly that I don’t want just to keep our family together. I am guessing he is a submissive beta male….but back when we met I suppose he was still trying to be a alpha and his mother sort of nipped that in the bud ..i don’t know what to do moving forward  it just hurts.

102. i don’t know what to do moving forward  it just hurts.

     I’ve gone through this myself, and yes, it hurts. I know none of your details, so take this with a grain of salt, but you’re probably married to the wrong guy. You being miserable for the next 30 years isn’t a valid option.

103. Thanks for the reply…10 years already had me suicidal and ready to have an affair and that was when he was still saying he wasn’t burdening me and that I was nuts …now he admits it and I don’t see things improving just me becoming more of something I’m not and ruining my life everyday I feel like someone else not even a girl any more it feels angry and stressed and on edge if I were dominant his needs for attention and direction would not drain me and make me anxious and afraid …anyway now that its out I’m even more sad…he says he wants to be different …but he said that the whole.time under the guise of being a depressed dominant When really he was an angry beta..I made my bed though and I have to figure this out …thanks so much for writing this post ..I feel like I just want to be independent I don’t want to go through this again ever ..30 more years definitely isn’t an option i would kill myself first or submit to anyone probably neither are what I want which is to be his ..but instead he wants to be mine..

104. Ashley you are describing the typical married woman with a beta. Yes you made your own bed. That’s what you get when you obey society and not your desires. You probably got the man that was throwing you the most attention and was projecting his neediness over to you(learn this from now on, guys who are trying hard to be the white knights are the ones who are going to make you miserable in your life).

     Also being an independent does not mean being feminist or being a woman that despises men. It means you let go. You do whatever you want. You don’t let society rule over you. You want to have sex with a man, you have sex with that man and you don’t care what other people say. Or you have sex with him and you don’t care if he turns out to be needy and you will hurt his feelings(his problem). An independent woman is not affected by external factors and does not try to rule over people like the dominant. Can you handle it?

     You have to figure this out yourself as you know your situation better, but in the end if you decide to end it be blunt(men want straightforward answers) and nice with your man and don’t take advantage of him. Just let go. The wasted years was your fault, not his. His wasted years is his fault. And don’t cheat, it will be another great mistake you will regret. End it(in a way that will be the best for your children) and figure it out later about being with another man.

      

105. Hey Hey

     You’re right…but he wasn’t like this at first there was no neediness or the other signs that are listed he was a completely different person at first. After the marriage it revealed itself…neediness has never been something I wanted. I don’t look at my years as wasted. The independence part is something I can handle I am only willing to submit for love and would prefer to do so within a loving relationship. Also there are things I wanted that I believed he wanted too…but I still want them and intend to pursue them ..this is where I first noticed the neediness it was in response to my own pursuit of adventure, career, etc. I have recently returned to this and will keep working on it not to be dominant but just to be me.

     I am not going to cheat it’s just at the edge it feels like that. I don’t want to be with anyone else I never did want this life I just wanted to be free and that is what I am working toward now. Also, I have been clear and direct about my feelings in a nice way the whole time I’ve only recently become a bitch its hard when you’re left to run everything and take care of the kids too..additionally I’m not sure what you mean when you say I obeyed society I don’t think that is true I think that I am tied to someone that did and yes again that was my choice.  Thinking about it further I can see in following conventional models, marriage, staying home, submitting…I have been conventional when in fact maybe I was never actually submissive to begin with. I’ve always felt sort like a bird that was caught..never mind that.

     I am thinking that I will evolve beyond submissiveness by being in this relationship and refusing to become dominant. I think that there is a middle ground and I have to find it…being submissive isn’t possible here and being dominant is  a betrayal to myself. Sorry if I’m being defensive I just want to be clear I appreciate the honesty…we were both fairly young when we met it could be that he hadn’t quite figured himself out and I didn’t know any better. I feel like I could have realized these things about myself sooner but now is better than never. I do accept full responsibility and do not want to be saved, I am going to liberate myself and stop whining about it. Thanks so much

106. So, you’re saying a dominant can never be romantic? I’m sorry but I disagree.

107. So, you’re saying a dominant can never be romantic? I’m sorry but I disagree.

     No. I’m saying that a serious relationship with a Dominant would involve so many rules and regulations over my life that I’d want to kill myself.

108. I am a lesbian woman who always considered myself “dominant” until I read this and realized it’s more like I’m independent. I guess, but I’m not sure.

     I don’t need anyone else, I’m happiest by myself, and I certainly don’t want anyone to take care of my needs. I hate it when people take care of me too much. Very controlling as you described dominants, but I don’t need to have people you see. I don’t WANT to have other humans in the same house as me all the time to be straight. If it doesn’t work with a person, I ditch and cut off all contact. I might feel bad, a little, but I want my future to be happy the way I want it. In fact, I’d say being around other humans too long makes me miserable.

     I prefer to be alone 90% of the time, be on the computer alone, work alone, watch tv alone, hike alone, masturbate alone, travel alone, eat alone, spend money alone….I really like to be alone…and this may sound cruel but I care more about making my own money and having time to myself than being around other people in general…men included. But every once in awhile I long to feel a girl’s warmth and make her happy taking what I give her.

     I want the perfect woman to tell me thank you a lot, not for me to tell her thank you a lot…I am not ungrateful to people, it simply makes me feel like a failure…if I were a male, the term would be more like…I’m worried about being emasculated and relying on them for anything. The idea being that my woman having more power or money than me makes me fizzle a bit and feel pretty inadequate. Not saying she can’t make her own decisions, she can do whatever she wants I don’t care (in fact, she can fuck other people as long as she respects me the most because I probably have multiple girls going at once), but I don’t want her to ever buy me a lot of gifts or dominate me in bed.

     My perfect girl(s), in my dream I’d be her(their) sugar mama as long as she(they) was respectful and looked up to me like their true matriarch. That’s a bit offensive off the cuff, but it’s the honest truth. This is a really random place to dump a vent with terrible grammar I admit, but it feels good getting it off my chest so that’s pretty sweet.

109. I don’t think you can caterogize all people like this I think it’s kind of stupid to think you can. For example a woman could be submissive as a youth just going with the flow of her partner, then she might become insecure bossy and dominate then she might have a relevation that respect is more important than love, love herself ditch the dude and go off and become a independent and God knows go become a Buddhist monk or something and find peace knowing she doesn’t want to please man but God, she looks for Gods acceptance not man’s acceptance, know that her worth isn’t defined by the people in her life but herself. Can you add another one to this list maybe call it an Enlightened? Really people go through different phases in their lives they are not just one personality their whole lives and if they are, they must suck and never really lived life too afraid to step out of their comfort zone. All of these types of women suck, not saying women suck these definitions suck because women (and men) are a heck of a lot more than these stupid definitions. Why don’t you just read your horoscope it’s bad enough we got people calling themselves Leo’s and Pisces now submissive and dominant come on. For once can we not try to contain each other and put each other in a box?

110. I don’t think you can caterogize all people like this I think it’s kind of stupid to think you can.

     Yes you can:

     https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/06/02/use-many-categories-labels/

111. I love this article and I love the comments. I’ve been wondering for a long time is my desire to succeed professionally greater than my desire to fall in love? I find myself constantly feeling lonely. It’s as if I’m socially unacceptable because I don’t fall into just one category. But like all females were very “complex” BUT so are these categories.
     At first I was envious of the independent. She’s the most desired, most happy choice in my eyes.
     I started thinking crap I’m a dominant. But then in the part of your article you said sometimes submissive women become dominant to beta males and hate themselves. That is exactly what has happened to me in 2 previous relationships.
     I couldn’t tolerate constantly leading. I wanted to feel security and dominating passion from my man in the bedroom, and half the time in our personal lives too. (I prefer equality and freedom in relationships). Since they were betas, I was put in a position to make all the choices. Which made it hard to be submissive in the bedroom.
     That then lead me to believe maybe I’m a SUB. that was surprising. I do have a longing to be lead by an alpha male but it has not happened yet because I couldn’t bring my standards down to be with a needy alpha. Its fun and all for a while, passion and sex is great. But the equality would still not be there. Which lead me to believe oh shit yes I’m an independent maybe? But then I started thinking being an independent is not as great as I thought it was.
     If you think about it, with the help of society and media, women are becoming more and more selfish greedy ruthless and bossy. And I hate to be that person I truly do though sometimes I find myself that way. No man is good enough in our eyes yet I have this DEEPPP longing to find a partner I can be equal with in the real world and dominated in some certain situations….ahem.
     So maybe it’s not women who are changing on purpose? Maybe there are just not enough alpha males left anymore. Maybe we are being forced into either being dominant with betas, or being submissive to needy alpha males. That’s why it’s so hard to see any happy independent women out there. That 10% stays 10% because women naturally follow men’s lead. And there just are not enough alphas anymore.
     Tell me if I’m wrong

112. Maybe there are just not enough alpha males left anymore. Maybe we are being forced into either being dominant with betas, or being submissive to needy alpha males.

     True.

113. I am not consider myself is alpha female cause is too strong, my husband is cheating on me but is okay, cause Im cheating on him before he is, I tell him cause I must honest like him, tommorow he leave me without sign, but its okay for me, there is a lot of men out there

114. The three worse kinds of women are the cheaters, the career ones, and the dominate ones. The ones that cheat are losers. The career ones are very selfish, spoiled, and very greedy. And the dominated ones are very bossy. Either way us good men still never win at all unfortunately.

115. The three worse kinds of women are the cheaters, the career ones, and the dominate ones. The ones that cheat are losers. The career ones are very selfish, spoiled, and very greedy. And the dominated ones are very bossy. Either way us good men still never win at all unfortunately.

     You’re forgetting about the dependent stay-at-home mothers and the gold-diggers. All women are horrible!!

     😀

116. You’re right.

117. I think maybe society has in some way forced a lot of women to adapt into roles that they wouldn’t normally choose to assume.. I. E. Divorced and single moms.
     Whom are required at that point to be the bread winners, to be the mother and father and to assert dominance over our children and any other other situation that calls a threat to our own survival, per se.
     In addition , it seems as though men are actually seeking woman that can “get it on thier own” , but have a problem dealing with the fact that she can.
     Greatfully enough, I can, and do, get on my own. But would much rather have someone to build an empire with together and communicate equally at the end of the day. .In terms of sexual dominance I am a SWITCH.
     So what does it mean when you have had a 10 ur marriage , a 20 year FB, a string of serial monogamous relationships. It certainly isn’t the fact that I don’t want to commit..but I have no idea what I’m doing anymore.. Meeting people as a dominant/independent. But craving dominant/independent/ submissive.. BTW I’m a Gemini.. If that helps you any.. WHERE DO I STAND ON THiS CHART?

118. And the psychological health of black females in general, has declined most steeply of all. I am referring to black females in the US of course.

     I agree. I often wonder if they are even aware that they have zero respect for themselves.

119. So what does it mean when you have had a 10 ur marriage , a 20 year FB, a string of serial monogamous relationships. It certainly isn’t the fact that I don’t want to commit..but I have no idea what I’m doing anymore.. Meeting people as a dominant/independent. But craving dominant/independent/ submissive.. BTW I’m a Gemini.. If that helps you any.. WHERE DO I STAND ON THiS CHART?

     None of that has anything to do with your type.

120. Wow… Quite a read this was! Very interesting. Thanks to the author and everyone

121. LOOOOOLLLLL. This blog is spot on.

     I tested “The Rules” crap when I was younger. Every single date felt like a task. Don’t text first. Be busy. Don’t accept date invitation after Wednesday. Yada yada yada.

     Yet, this thing called biological clock weighed me down. I think, nature does want me to spread my legs and continue humanity. I do want to have kids and a stable provider. But I also can’t fathom the fact that I will be with one person and one person only for the rest of my life.

     I don’t know what I am (Subs, Dom, or Indie), and I don’t think I care. If only I’m actually a dude (or I can conceive babies via machine, anytime).

      

     Welps, time to grow up

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123. Thank you! This was such an enlightening article. I’m a woman and apparently an independent. I have successfully played the role of submissive for short periods of time with men i now know to be needy alphas. I enjoy being submissive in bed. I am very nurturing and love to care for others. I have ended up with a beautiful a child on my own and love to care for her, work a couple of jobs, have hobbies friends and creative projects.
     my question is, can independents find lasting love? I really understand that my history of 1-3 year relationships might say no, but is there a good combination for an independent to have a life partner?

124. Hello, I LOVED your blog post and it made me understand myself, from what you have described I can see that I am independent/dominant, I grew up with an independent mother and my father wasn’t in my life much, as a child I hated authority and I was rebellious towards my teachers in high school, as I got older I suppressed my hatred for authority as I wanted good grades and to get a job, the only authority I could stomach was my mothers as I respect her the most in this world. Anytime someone tells me what to do with my life I dislike it a lot! I can have great friendships with women because we don’t really try to dominate each other and we focus on compromise. However if I get in a relationship with a man, they often want me to listen to their orders. Although in general I dislike being bossy and telling people what to do as well, as I prefer doing things for myself and I wish other people to be independent like that. Sexually I’m really attracted to men who are either submissive or flexible in the bedroom, I like men who pay attention to a woman’s pleasure and seeks to sexual stimulate her and be really giving in the bedroom. I also find being on top very attractive and being the boss in the bedroom. The way I see my life is either being happily independent with a stable career and home or being in a happy marriage with a man who adores me, takes care of me, while respecting my independence and authority, that while he has a job as well as I do, when we get home he listens to what I say, just as I listen to him and we work together.

125. Newsflash:  Alpha males don’t actually exist in nature.  The study that coined the term incorrectly labeled dominant-acting wolves as “Alpha” and “Omega”, when in reality they were only the strongest animals because they were the PARENTS to the rest of the pack.

     Sadly, this misconception took off in the 1960’s right after it was made, and has been the source of  a tremendous amount of psycho-analysis in the seduction/manosphere/dating communities ever since, even though its original authors backed away from its findings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ti86veZBjU

126. @kelsey: Newsflash: we know the bit about alpha/beta in nature not corresponding to its manosphere definition, and the community doesn’t care so long as its own defs are understood. We also know the rest of your comment is a gross oversimplification and that dominant and less dominant males do exist in animal species, especially those actually closely related to us, you know, like chimps and gorillas. Maybe start with [Alpha (ethology)] on wikipedia and then move on to more elaborate stuff.

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128. Well, I am wondering now about the damsel in distress, what the hell is that guys? You fall for it all the time, it almost makes a woman feel as if that is what can be an advantage for this damsel act. I feel I can be a little of Dominating, but if you can handle the job or decisions, help yourself. I mean really how lovely that would be. I am an independent in the ways of not depending on someone else to completely be with me all the time. I am so not running around crazy, I like to relax and read a book. This article is not all factual, it is just an opinion.

129. This is good summary and simple terms. This 3 types will be your legacy, BD. I like it… solid stuff, simple, and memorable.

     To really drive it home, use the metaphors from the 10 year Hollywood mind slave programming tool that was “Friends”:

     Monica = dominant, Pheobe = submissive, Rachel = Independent

     Chandler = beta, Ross = Needy Alpha 1.0, Joey = Alpha 2.0

     …good stuff, my man. This 3 types of men/women needs to be a YouTube vid if it is not already?

130. I find this topic interesting, though I can be very dominant and very submissive but both only when I want to mostly. Ive only slept with my hubby. Twenty five years together, I have no desire to sleep with anyone else nor am I prudish in anyway. I never get jealous or worry I believe if he does not appreciate me  and plays up, even after kids and all these years,  ‘bye bye’!  I couldn’t be dominant for very long I like men to be men, I can’t be submissive outside the bedroom either. So I am independent? Or just weird???

131. lolll! I guess that I’m a needy alpha male… I can fell the smell of a dominant woman miles away!! Like a guy told, the most exicited dates that I have in my life was with independent woman, was like a fire, was like we knowm each other for years, but we met each other a month ago.

     Thinking about it! I guess that I really like independent woman!! But like BD said, when she realized you dont fit in her no more, she dumped you, in 5 minutes.

     I had hard story with a independent woman last year.

     Im a doctor, she is too. I met her at the hospital, I appointed her, after the appointment I ask her number, after that, one month texting, we met each other personaly we have same the same day,  the next day we are connected like with we were married.

     I know its pretty sad, saw a man told a story like that!! lol

     But the point is!! Miss not her, but the vibe!!! the vibe to find a pretty similar woman, ideas about life, business, money, sex!! uhhh sex!!

     I dont know with after a pua adventure or studying seduction, Im talking about myself, I wanted to find a woman that make feel alive

     Because every time is the same! every games! every speech! every sex!!!!

     Black dragon! read my post!

     Thanks for your blog! is amazing man!!!! great job you doing heree!!

      

     Im talking from Brazil!!

132. Black Dragon, I read this post and the associated one on the types of men. I think it’s a useful typology. But I’ve got a few questions.

     When it comes to women, you seem to be saying that women are one of the three types and they are stuck with it. They can’t change from one type to another. By contrast, your whole blog is based on the concept that men CAN change from one type to another (beta to Alpha).

     Frankly, I’m not sure about that premise. I mean, I think you’ve accurately identified three types of men, but I’m not sure that men can change type. I hope I’m not hurting anyone’s feelings, but a large proportion of your clients seem to fall into the “whining beta” category – or perhaps “fantasizing beta” might be a better way to describe it. They come to this site to fantasize about having a different life, but they can’t or won’t make the necessary changes.

     Hypothetically, do you think it would be possible for a Female Dragon to emerge to give women lessons on how to change from a submissive or dominant to an Independent?

     Sidebar: Independent women rock. Totally the best type of women for long-term relationships. They are the type of women I consider to be equals.

     A related issue is that you seem to be saying that there’s nothing better or worse about any of the female types – just different. But that doesn’t seem to apply to the male types: you’re unremittingly scathing about male betas and clearly think Alpha 2.0’s are not just a different type, but the best type.

     Any comments?

     ****

     An obiter dictum digression: I saw some comments about different proportions of types in different cultures and locations. I live in a South-East Asian country with a Muslim majority (but also with very open attitudes towards sexuality, a large secular middlle class, and many other redeeming features). Looking around, I’d say that there is HUGE amount of dominant women here, and lots of beta men. The difference between here and Western society is that there is SOCIETAL PRESSURE for women to appear to be submissive and for men to appear as Alphas. So you get many, many cases of couples presenting to the world like that, but in actual fact, the woman is dominant behind the scenes.

     So, I think the propotions of the types might be consistent around the world. It’s just that in different cultures, different judgments apply to the different types.

     Thanks for the blog! I’ve been enjoying reading it. I may get around to getting your book. Frankly, I think I can chart my own path to get where I want to go, but no denying that I’ve picked up some ideas from what you’ve written. Cheers and keep up the good work!

133. I don’t know if I agree with this. Just because a woman is dominant doesn’t mean she needs to boss her significant other around. To me Dominant and Independent sound very similar. Look at all the dominant women that people write about on femdoming dot com. They “boss” their submissive men because that is what the man wants. He yearns to be controlled.

134. I don’t know if I agree with this. Just because a woman is dominant doesn’t mean she needs to boss her significant other around. To me Dominant and Independent sound very similar. Look at all the dominant women that people write about on femdoming dot com. They “boss” their submissive men because that is what the man wants. He yearns to be controlled.

     There are various reasons why these men like to be dominated in the bedroom and it doesn’t necessarily means the man is submissive outside of the bedroom. He might be a beta male, but he may also be a dominant male in the relationship and often so in his public life: a lot of CEO who boss around hundreds or thousands of people all day long are clients of expensive dominatrix, it turns them on sexually to reverse their public life role and be under the simulated control of a dominant woman within the delimited space and time of a sex session.

     Reversely I can imagine that some very submissive men in their public life turn very dominant in the bedroom.

     Finally, it’s not all black and white: some people are “switch” who enjoy taking both dominant and submissive roles in the bedroom.

135. You have me pegged. I am submissive to the core. However, When you say, “Unlike betas, Submissives can become the dominant one in the relationship if she ends up with a submissive beta male. I’ve seen this many times. A Submissive moves in with a beta, and the Submissive slowly assumes the power in the relationship. However, by doing this she is miserable inside. She eventually throws massive drama at him and cheats on him. When the relationship finally ends (which it will), hopefully she ends up with a strong man so she can be herself again.  You are correct in that I can become a dominant with the wrong guy, and I will be miserable and resentful, and eventually cheat because I lose all respect for him and/or leave. The only part I will correct you on is that it is not just when a submissive is with a beta that this happens. I left betas in the dust as soon as it was obvious they were betas. It was not the betas I became the dominant with. It was Alphas and Needy Alphas who became, “Overly brutal, domineering, and/or disrespectful.” Cheating on me, expecting me to be submissive when they were not willing to be worthy of my submission, ie. Not keeping a job, expecting me to work but not doing shit around the house to help, I am submissive, not a slave. Lying, being abusive, being overly controlling and jealous, etc. Those things are not something I can respect and I have to respect someone to submit to them. I am a sub, not a doormat. If you want to sleep with someone else, for instance, lets discuss it and see how we could go about exploring that option, don’t do it behind my back. I am not hung up that sex is synonymous with love so I really don’t mind sharing, and actually find it a turn on, but trust is absolutely paramount. You do something behind my back and I have no respect for you. I have self respect, after all. And yes, if you abuse my trust or submission, there will be drama. I won’t just leave. I will be sadistic and twisted and make your life Hell before I go. 😛

136. these numbers are definitely skewed when you put the focus on black women.

     black american women are 75%Dominant

     20%Submissive and 5%Independent.
     It’s ingrained in the culture that a woman is not a real woman unless she bosses around anyone breathing.
     if you are a cooperative and slow to anger type of woman you’re not even considered black.  My bf says I’m  closer to a white woman because I don’t yell and throw things. It’s a real tragedy.
     I was lucky because my mom is not a dominant person. she has a high earning job but *rarely* fights/bosses around my dad.
     This is what white american society has to look forward to since they going the same route.