71 Comments on “Strong, Independent Woman? Are You Sure That’s What You Are?”

1. This article was reposted on our Forum. Thanks for the insights!

2. Most of those things could be said of men too. The difference is that a higher percentage of men would admit that they are not where they should be and are trying to be stronger and more independent. A higher percentage of men would also say that they are working on it, and I dare say a higher percentage of men would be working on it.

3. The problem is that a higher percentage of women are genetically programed to be submissive to men, but American culture teaches women to be Dominants and men to be Submissive Betas. Of course this doesn’t work out because the culture is going against nature, and very few people if any one can escape their nature. Essentially American Culture trains men to be women and women to be men when they are boys and girls and even into adulthood, then wonders why we have all these problems. There was an article entitled “9 New Sex Findings You Won’t Believe” on MSN. Number 2 Was that when women earned more money that the men had more erectile dysfunction on average and women were taking more medicine for depression. Number 4 was that men who do more housework have less sex. MSN is a liberal/progressive cultural Marxist feminist supporting website and even they printed this. There are other things Black Dragon or others or even I may comment on later.

   I realize this may seem be a bit off on a tangent. Stay with me as here’s my point. Most American women have no idea how to be strong and independent nor what most men go through in life and would cry a vale of tears if they were truly treated as strong and independent and above all like most men are treated. Most men have crap lives through no fault of their own, are told to shut up and deal by toughing it out without complaint. Here’s the link.
   http://msn.com/en-us/health/welness/9-new-sex-findings-you-wont-beleive/ss-BB8vgCF

4. I apologize. I made a mistake above. Instead of women taking medications for depression if they make more money than their male partners, I should have said more women were taking medicine for anxiety and insomnia.

5. I would like to do my part to help educate women on the correct definitions of English words.
   Fellatio means giving oral sex to men.
   You would not believe how many women say what is that?
   And when I say blow job or suck me off they say
   oh I am really good at that and they are:)

6. This article is going to make a LOT of “strong, independent” women angry and stamp their feet, feel sick, and cry — then call the nearest White Knight and all their mangina orbiters to protect them.

7. Oh dear…well I debated on whether to comment or not, not wanting to sound like “a girl stomping her feet and getting all mad” since I’m NOT so this hopefully won’t sound that way.
   First I myself agree with a good 80% of what BD said. Its funny a lot of what I agree with can be said for both men and women but since this is about women I’ll stick to that.
   I think women have a different mindset on the meanings all together.What may be strong to a woman may not to a man. Women are not only raised to be girly girl or partially (I preferred ringing doorbells and tag to barbies but that’s me) but I believe its dna,environment,cultural and just hormones. Omg I know, she’s throwing out the hormone card. Lol just hold on for a minute. No matter how hard you guys want to deny it exists or that we use shit like this for an excuse there is some fact to it.I’m not saying it should be used in any way shape or form to get what one wants or be abusive demanding or downright mean,it shouldn’t.There isn’t a female in the world who hasn’t had a meltdown because of it, the difference is how she handles it after the fact,,,I don’t expect you to understand it,
   Hell half the time women don’t either,I would be the first to apologize,,eatja kit kat and continue makng dinner,,
   Men say they want a woman who can stand up for herself but sometimes when women do,,,its like
   What the F. Who does she think she is.??
   Men want someone who can make decisons but not Impt ones like lets say you are living together(crazy I know) its ok for her to pick out the towel color or curtains but not a chance in hell will she make the tv purchase..I mean seriously what does a woman know about the HDMI flat complex capisitor electrical transmissional
   Magnetic sound wave that transfers lightning speed and color for the big game? Ok lol so I made that up what I’m trying to say is women think they are strong or try and really do try to
   Be strong in ways you guys wouldn’t understand. Just as doclove said about how we wouldn’t have a clue how tough it is..I’m sure we wouldn’t but it really.goes.2 ways..there is a lot of shit we deal with.. and yep we cry, sorry to tell you
   That, I’ve had patients who have passed away and if strong means not crying than I’m really weak.
   I don’t think women should expect men to pay their bills, clothing (unless its something they both can enjoy and he just wanted to) a car, a house or those 8 in heels you think we love we’re going to freaking break our necks in lol stop.
   I know I got off topic[ female] go.figure
   All I’m saying is give a slack, indont think any of us want to be dependent on another person and if she is that’s your decision if you want to deal with that kind of girl.

8. I read this blog religiously, and I have been waiting for this post. The disconnect between what women say and what they actually do is striking. That is, some one who is “independent” would not want to be married because marriage almost always denotes less freedom. This is why most men are not independent either, because they can’t wait to insulate themselves in the womb of marriage. Indeed, if freedom or independence is the goal, one would move into the most modest of houses and stockpile money considering liquid currency (while not a linear correlation) is a rough approximation for freedom.

   Further, collecting money from any source external to yourself is a dead ringer for dependence. One would assume this is obvious, and it is surreal to see a blog post where someone actually has to point it out, usually to the chagrin of the socially programmed. But whenever I see these women pining for a husband or cashing their government checks while simultaneously flaunting their “independence”, I am reminded of “double think” from 1984. And the most insidious element of the whole charade is that people don’t recognize the obvious disconnect. Frightening.

9. I’ve never fancied myself a “strong, independent woman” but being “strong and independent” to a woman is different than it is to a man. Women have a different genetic makeup and different societal expectations. When they are fighting against the grain it takes a certain amount of emotional strength. For a woman to be “independent” is much different than a man because society and our natural inclinations teach us to be dependent on others.

   Women were not built to be “strong” or “independent”. So I think they can rightfully take pride in ANY amount of strength or independence that is not generally shown by women. It’s not fair to hold them to the same standards as men, because they AREN’T men.

   For example, a woman living alone (and especially alone with children) is much more vulnerable than a man. She is physically more at risk and more likely to be preyed upon. So it takes more “strength and independence” to conquer that fear than it does for a man, who doesn’t face the same obstacles.

   A woman crying also doesn’t have anything to do with how “strong and independent” she is. Expressing emotion is something women do more naturally and not a reflection of strength or independence. Crying doesn’t make you “weak”, in some ways it makes you more strong, because you are not afraid to outwardly manifest what you are feeling inside.

   Also, what the hell does someone getting angry and upset when they are on their period have to do with the price of tea in China? That has absolutely nothing to do with “strength or independence” and I think you threw it in there as some kind of jab at women in general. We have periods and PMS, its a part of life. Accept it. Be strong. 😉

10. I’d have to disagree on roommates and medical insurance, unless by “government health plan” you meant “reduced rate government health plan”, or something like medicare. Ignoring ‘if you’d want to’, buying health insurance through the exchanges doesn’t seem like it has any bearing on being strong or independent.

    Roommates, it really depends on where you live. Needing a roommate to afford where you’re currently living does not make you “dependent” in the same sense as needing a boyfriend to take care of you does. You can replace the housemate at any time with any of a number of other housemates, so, sure, you’re dependent on *a* housemate, but not *that* housemate. Being able to tell them to get out (barring housing law) if they’re not working out, in my book, is just fine for claiming independence. This, of course, changes if you’re seeing the other person, or if they’re somehow related to you.

11. Most of those things could be said of men too. The difference is that a higher percentage of men would admit that they are not where they should be and are trying to be stronger and more independent.

    That’s exactly why most of these things could NOT be said of men. Most men don’t go around declaring to the world they’re strong or independent.

    Even if a man did, and yeah some do, he would stick out like a sore thumb because it would look so stupid and arrogant.

    Number 4 was that men who do more housework have less sex.

    I have read this as well and have commented on it before (though I forget if it was here or on the forums).

    Most American women have no idea how to be strong and independent nor what most men go through in life and would cry a vale of tears if they were truly treated as strong and independent and above all like most men are treated.

    Yep. Just like I talk about here.

12. Cheryl and Lovergirl –

    1. I am not talking about getting mad. Everyone gets mad now and then. I’m talking about doing so because of her period, then getting MORE mad because someone suggests she’s doing it because of her period. I’m not talking about getting mad or sad for any reason whatsoever.

    A true “strong, independent woman,” if she yells at someone while on her period, would also say, “Hey, I’m sorry. I’m a bitch today because I’m on my period and it’s not your fault.” A weak woman would instead scream and yell louder and call that person names if he called her out for being on her period.

    2. I am also not talking about crying in general. I am talking about crying in the workplace where it’s completely inappropriate.

    3. I agree that men and women have a different genetic makeup and are trained differently by society. It doesn’t have anything to do with what I’m talking about. I am not talking about holding men and women to the same standards. I’m talking about saying one thing then acting the complete opposite.

    4. Western men and women both speak English, thus use the same words in the same language. You cannot say that certain words like “strong” or “independent” have completely different meanings when a woman says them versus when a man says them. That’s childish, silly, and a little insane. “BD, you don’t understand. When a woman says ‘black’ it means yellow. Just because men mean black when they say ‘black’ doesn’t mean that’s what women mean when they say it. Men and women are different BD!!!”

    Just like when I talked about the word “rape,” if you seriously want to change the English definition of certain words, you need to either use different words that more accurately reflect your thoughts so people understand what you’re saying, or go call Merriam-Webster and have them change the dictionary (good luck with that one).

    Much better to simply speak English correctly so people understand what you mean.

    This message in English literacy brought to you by Blackdragon Incorporated. For a better tomorrow.

13. buying health insurance through the exchanges doesn’t seem like it has any bearing on being strong or independent.

    I should have been more clear. I’m talking about getting free healthcare from the government, via a state health plan or something like medicaid, not getting a reduced-cost plan from a government exchange.

    Needing a roommate to afford where you’re currently living does not make you “dependent” in the same sense as needing a boyfriend to take care of you does.

    Oh yes it does. You are dependent on that roommate to pay his half of the rent and not trash your apartment or cause you trouble. If he causes any trouble, your life is hell, and replacing him with another roommate to be dependent on is also hell. Just ask anyone who’s lived with roommates.

    Requiring a roommate to live where you live is indeed a condition of dependency.

14. So BD if someone wants to be fairly independent(using this term losely) and let’s say its a 20some year old girl who knows its time to move out from under her parents roof, but knowing the prices of rent now, gets a roomate to split the cost, she’s not being independent? Or at leastmaking the steps to get her there?

    Also i seriously have to.disagree with the men and housework deal… I dont know a single female that wouldn’t think if she came home to a man doing the dishes, tossing in laundry or cooking,would be Hot,appreciated and having sex right in the kitchen…
    I so agree with lovergirl what does it have to do with the price of tea in china? Infact I see more men whine about the period thing than women..shrugs

15. I dont know a single female that wouldn’t think if she came home to a man doing the dishes, tossing in laundry or cooking,would be Hot,appreciated and having sex right in the kitchen.

    The very first time he did it you might react that way, especially if he had never done it before. Maybe the second or third time too. But if he kept doing it for years and years, as soon as he walked into the same room with you your pussy would dry up like a desert.

    So BD if someone wants to be fairly independent(using this term losely) and let’s say its a 20some year old girl who knows its time to move out from under her parents roof, but knowing the prices of rent now, gets a roomate to split the cost, she’s not being independent?

    Correct. She’s not.

    Or at leastmaking the steps to get her there?

    Yes. She’s making steps to get there, but making steps to get there is not being there.

    If I wanted to be a millionaire, and I got my net worth up to $100K, I would be making steps to be a millionaire, but I would not be a millionaire, and if I walked around bragging I was a millionaire, I would be a liar or a moron.

16. Hmmm ..I don’t know about that,esp if he’s shirtless,,more seriously its a mutual respect/love kind of thing (I know don’t bring the L word into it) but wouldn’t you think a couple who just does that,,because they want to not because told to,,if the glass is there pick it up or the garbage needs to go out take it if your the last one out of the house that morning male or female who cares..I’ll never understand the bog deal in stuff like that.
    Now being independent has different levels don’t you think? Like I’m not depending on mom to cook for me because I’m out of the house, or I am independent as I’m paying MY share of the rent which is different from being a millionaire because you can’t make 999,999.99 and be a millionaire its cut and dry.

17. Oh yes it does. You are dependent on that roommate to pay his half of the rent and not trash your apartment or cause you trouble. If he causes any trouble, your life is hell, and replacing him with another roommate to be dependent on is also hell. Just ask anyone who’s lived with roommates.

    I’ve lived with housemates for the past 5 or so years(and 5 years before that in college), no problems whatsoever. I’m the only person on the lease, and they’re free to leave when they feel like it. If they leave, I can find another within a week to replace them. Sure, I’m assuming they’re not going to trash the place and pay their rent, but seriously? That’s never been a problem. Plus, even if one does trash the place, I’m still ahead financially compared to living alone. One year with a roommate saves me about 15k over living alone. They’d get into ‘I’m calling the cops’ territory before they can cost me more than I save.

18. BD- the nuance of the English language you seem to be missing is that “strong, independent WOman” is a completely different animal than “strong independent man”. Women get PMS. Women cry. Women have different obstacles to move past in order to gain the female version of independence in our society.

19. The 62,ooo dollar question is: why do women feel the need to say they are strong and independent or DONT NEED A MAN, if they truly were strongly independent and didn’t need men.

20. @Duke before I give what I may think the answer is to this question is, I need to know how the 62,000 gets paid out (cash, check, snacks?) 🙂
    I think it can come from 2 places.
    1. A place of hurt. Somewhere along the line she got burned/ heartbroken and vowed never to let another man see that side of her again.
    2.who wants to appear needy? Helpless? Maybe by saying it outloud affirms it.
    3.they are lesbian and don’t unless maybe they need help with a new roof.
    4.some it with anger to scare off a particuliar man she doesnt want close to her.
    Just a guess ..

21. I’ve lived with housemates for the past 5 or so years(and 5 years before that in college), no problems whatsoever.

    Irrelevant.

    Remember in the above blog post I said, and I quote: “require a roommate or live-in boyfriend to help cover your rent.” If you require a roommate to cover your rent, you are in a condition of dependence, period, end of story. That’s even if your roommate is the most responsible person in the world and even if you live in a parallel universe where replacing roommates is always quick and painless.

    Now if you can easliy cover your rent all by yourself with no problem whatsoever, and choose to have roommates to reduce your costs, then fine, you’re not dependent. But that’s not what I said in the blog post.

22. And the English lesson continues!

    being independent has different levels don’t you think?

    Possibly, but let’s say I agree with that. A woman speaking correct English would say, “I’m somewhat independent” or “I’m partially independent” or “I’m not completely independent yet, but I’m working on it.” Those would all be fine.

    But if she tosses her head and says “I’m an independent woman!” while she relies on alimony and roommates to pay her bills, then she’s not communicating correctly, and people are going to (often correctly) assume she’s either a moron, a liar, or an overly-emotional person who can’t speak correct English.

    Women have different obstacles to move past in order to gain the female version of independence in our society.

    English again.

    I would have no problem with a woman who proudly declares, “I’m independent for a woman!” or “I’m independent as women define it!” That would be perfectly fine, since that would be accurate English. There would be no disputing her words.

    If you want men to take you seriously, learn to communicate correctly. I agree it takes a little more effort, but it’s really not that hard, ladies.

23. This is pretty simple. If you need someone or something else to help you, then you are not independent.

24. The 62,ooo dollar question is: why do women feel the need to say they are strong and independent or DONT NEED A MAN, if they truly were strongly independent and didn’t need men.

    BINGO!

25. *shrug* different ideas of depenence then. To me, if it’s your lease, and you have savings enough where you can easily cover the time it’d take to replace a housemate, you’re independent, even if you couldn’t afford to live where you are long term without one. (Unrelated: I can replace a housemate in a week because the shared rent is low for the market, and housing is in high demand, not because I live in a fantasy land)

    If losing a housemate means you need to scramble to make rent next month, I’ll buy that you’re not independent.

26. My 2 cents…few women know how to be truly independent.

    All that talk about “it’s different for us”, “we have other obstacles that guy’s don’t understand”, “we are more emotional”, etc, etc is just a bunch of excuses because, frankly, we men know you girls are clueless in this matter.

    Being independent means two simple things:
    1) being 100% free and 100% dependent on your own efforts…and I mean not only financially, but also emotionally;
    2) don’t give a shit about any shit;

    Girls, you must understand that being like that is being in touch of how you feel, not how you talk, act or behave. And it’s not that much related to physical strenght (I know a lot of strong guys who sometimes act like pussies, bet you all do).

    IMHO independency is just a special kind of mental resilience (that’s why your gender is irrelevant).

27. Clueless?? In what, being independent? Do you seriously believe that? And for the record not all girl toss their heads and finger snap as well. I personally would never make the statement “I’m independent for a woman” it sounds goofy and somehow lessens the importance.. I can take out the garbage very well for a woman. See?

28. Hey, whike we’re at this topic what’s your view on being employed by someone/company?
    I’m employed and definately dependant on my income from my employer (company I work for). Under Blackdragon definition is this dependant or independant? (I am currently paying rent monthly tho – not in debt in any way fyi)

    thanks

29. I’m employed and definately dependant on my income from my employer (company I work for). Under Blackdragon definition is this dependant or independant?

    Dependent. You are 100% dependent on your employer to pay your bills if your job is your only source of income. Your employer can fire your ass or lay you off whenever they want, for any reason they want.

    The way to be fully independent (as possible) is to structure your income the way I have: Have 2-4 small businesses, all with many customers, all in completely different industries or sectors. That way if one customer fires you, or even several of them, you don’t even feel it. Even if one of your businesses or industries go under, you might be upset but your income continues from your other businesses.

    I describe exactly how to do this in my book right here.

    Having only one source of income, and having that income be a job at a company you don’t control and can lose at any time, even through no fault of your own, is indeed a condition of dependency.

    Having a job sucks.

30. Yes, I guess the word I was thinking was ‘financially dependancy’ (from a non-income source like family, partner, parants, govt…)

    I bought the paperback ver. of your book (got the bonuses too), its fascinating stuff. keep up the good work

31. @Cheryl
    Your comment just proves we’re right 😉

32. Oh my, I’m just told that you’re the famous man from PUA dating forum.. that’s why you make many good quality of relationship article…
    can I get inspiration from this article and pour it again into a fresh new article?

33. As always, BD makes more sense in a couple of paragraphs than all his critics make in theirs combined. Just goes to show the scale of confusion in our world today.

34. Black Dragon
    Perhaps I was not clear, and this is why you misunderstood me. I did not mean that men say I’m strong and independent a lot. Few men do very often and most men say it rarely. Even fewer do if they are not strong and independent. Many if not most women say I’m strong and independent in the USA. I meant to say that most men are dependent on a job from their employer or have a room mate or wife or girlfriend or a family member they live with to pay rent or the mortgage. Many men pay minimal child support and let the government pay the rest in section 8 housing, food stamps welfare checks etc. Many men collect disability payment and as an example many veterans collect veterans’ disability payment. I think there are other things on this list which may illustrate this as well on what you said in the article and your subsequent comments.

35. I meant to say that most men are dependent on a job from their employer…

    I understand but this blog post has nothing whatsoever to do with how independent or dependent people are. It’s about people saying they’re independent when they are clearly not. And as you stated more than once, women are doing this for more often than men.

36. The brilliance of this post is that it was designed to elicit the emotional reactions that reinforced it’s main message.
    Well played sir!

37. Haha! Shit you weren’t supposed to say that!

38. Hello, first-time commenter here. I know this blog is primarily directed at men, but I discovered it somehow and find it very insightful. I’m a big proponent of accomplishing self-sufficiency, which is something I feel society doesn’t always expect women to do.

    I actually agree with this list. The only thing that doesn’t apply to me that was mentioned later was that I have a full-time regular job that is my sole source of income. I do enjoy my job, and it is low risk in terms of layoff potential (my company has never done layoffs, and I’ve been promoted several times over the course of my employment). I also make enough money that I’d have savings to hold me over if anything were to happen. My primary marketable skill is proofreading, but I worked as one for a number of years and unfortunately there simply isn’t much money to be made in that industry, unless you get lucky. I’m fairly introverted (ISTJ, aka “Inspector” personality type), and am horrible at self-promotion/networking. My dad was most likely an ESTJ and was a master at this; he owned his own PR company and always had several jobs lined up at any given time. Too bad I didn’t inherit this skill set from him, but that just means I’ll have to work harder to develop it!

    Another option of course is investing in real estate. I bought my first home last year, and in a few years I plan on buying a second home, moving in and renting my current one out. Where I live in California, rent payments are often much more than mortgage payments.

39. Obviously, men go by literal definitions, and women use whatever word is appealing.

    Instead of using “strong” and “independent”, which sound cool, why not use more accurate descriptors like “confident” and “non-needy”:

    confident – having strong belief or full assurance
    non-needy – not in a condition of need or want; not poverty-stricken; not impoverished; not extremely poor; not destitute.

    Basically, today’s “strong, independent woman” is just a pop-culture term for a confident, non-needy woman.

40. Black Dragon,
    Thanks for clarifying that for me. I saw how that your intent and primary message was about people who like to proclaim they are strong and independent, but I see your message even more clearly now. However, your secondary message whether intentional or unintentional was to show people what strong and independent truly means. I was driving the secondary message into my mind and maybe others’ minds especially men even more. It was not my intent to disagree with you although I may have inadvertently done so. You are absolutely right in that no one can call themselves strong and independent unless they have done exactly what you said above.

41. Wow, the comments section are gold.

    @BD

    “2. I am also not talking about crying in general. I am talking about crying in the workplace where it’s completely inappropriate.”

    I could not agree with this more. I design medical tools for surgery. I have been in design meetings where we discuss fail-safes on how to determine if some of these guided tools are in an error state and may make inappropriate resections on a person’s body. I have seen women cry in completely inappropriate situations simply b/c they cannot accept that they are wrong. I’ve also seen women crack under pressure of meeting deadlines and completely shut down and cry as well.

    But when it comes time for end of year raises / bonuses / promotions, some of these same women are cherished for being ‘STRONG’ and ‘INDEPENDENT’, simply b/c there are so few of them in engineering disciplines and we need to ‘promote women in engineering’. Nevermind the fact that 75% of the men on those particular teams outworked these girls by 2:1, and made more significant contributions…

    The problem with Cheryl and Lovergirl creating this strange and ‘insane’ double standard, is that when language gets warped like this it trickles down to our work places and real people get screwed as a result.

42. @BD, @Cheryl, @Lovergirl

    “4. Western men and women both speak English, thus use the same words in the same language. You cannot say that certain words like “strong” or “independent” have completely different meanings when a woman says them versus when a man says them. That’s childish, silly, and a little insane. “BD, you don’t understand. When a woman says ‘black’ it means yellow. Just because men mean black when they say ‘black’ doesn’t mean that’s what women mean when they say it. Men and women are different BD!!!””

    I agree. It’s completely ridiculous to say that a word like ‘Strong’ or ‘Independent‘ means something different for men and women.

    We wouldn’t say that words like ‘Justice’ or ‘Equality’ mean different things for black people or white people now would we? This sort of nonsense was stamped out a long time ago.

    It would follow that to treat men and women fairly, you should hold them to the same standard.

43. I’m not creating a definition, simply stating what I think it means to a lot of women in today’s society. I personally have no desire whatsoever to be a “strong, independent woman”. I would be perfectly happy to have a man take care of me. :p

44. Another option of course is investing in real estate.

    One of the ultimate forms of independence is to live in a home that you own that is completely paid off (no mortgage). You’ll have to pay property taxes, but you don’t need to pay rent or mortgage for the rest of your life.

    However, your secondary message whether intentional or unintentional was to show people what strong and independent truly means.

    That sounds like a really good follow-up blog post. What “independent” really means, in terms of specifics.

    I have seen women cry in completely inappropriate situations simply b/c they cannot accept that they are wrong. I’ve also seen women crack under pressure of meeting deadlines and completely shut down and cry as well.

    I have too, in business situations that were completely inappropriate.

    But honestly, I don’t have a problem with women acting like babies in the workplace. Women are what they are, and I accept them for what they are. Cry away if you want.

    What I DO have a problem with is a woman who cries at work and then later that evening brags to her girlfriends or some guy she’s on a first date with about how “strong” or “tough” or “scrappy” she is.

    It would like me going around bragging to people that I’m skinny and have blonde hair. People don’t realize how stupid it sounds when they brag about being things they clearly aren’t.

45. @lovergirl

    ‘the nuance of the English language you seem to be missing is that “strong, independent WOman” is a completely different animal than “strong independent man”. ‘

    No it’s not. There is no different when you say ‘Strong and Independent‘ and that’s the entire point of the post.

46. “This article is going to make a LOT of “strong, independent” women angry and stamp their feet, feel sick, and cry — then call the nearest White Knight and all their mangina orbiters to protect them.”

    Yup– and then this article will be “like it never even happened”.

    https://unmaskingfeminism.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/knightpro/

47. For as much boasting as there is on the “strong, independent” team, there is an equal amount of boasting on the “submissive, dependent” team. By this I mean the traditionalist women who can’t shut up about how submissive they are, how they love to serve, how they rely on their men. Those on either team who generally are strong/independent or submissive/dependent are usually too busy actually being those things than to prattle on about them.

48. This struck a nerve: Satchmo said, “I’ve also seen women crack under pressure of meeting deadlines and completely shut down and cry as well.”

    I suspect I’m up against that at work right now. My field is kinda technical, typically populated mostly by men, but for some reasons that seemed logical at the time (to my “guy brain”), I took a chance on hiring a woman who seemed to be really solid on the skills I needed. She is pretty good – only her productivity is about 10% of what my best guy does. To give you some perspective, somebody who does the job well can easily manage 40-50 “units” a week. Last week, I did 100 while juggling other duties (but then I’m the boss, and I’ve been doing it for 10 years).

    Last fall I told the “girl” that after 1.5 years on the job she needed to get her weekly up to 30 units (so I’m dumbing down the standards for her already – BAD!). I was not threatening or mean or nasty about it. Tried to be as encouraging and supportive as possible, with coaching, feedback, etc. No go. Last week I told her she needed to get in 20 units by EOD Friday. She got 4 done, maybe. The more I try to get her to pick up the pace, the more she slows down.

    Next week, we’re gonna have to have the Talk. No, not BD’s Talk but the, “your work isn’t up to par and you gotta clean it up or else” talk. You do that with a guy, most likely he pulls up his socks and starts hitting his quota, maybe grudgingly, maybe just up to the bare minimum, and he may hate yer guts for insisting that he do it, but he’ll do it.

    The odd thing is, she knows the other guys are way outproducing her, and I’m not detecting an F-you attitude. But she won’t PUSH herself to get more done. At least she’s never claimed to be a strong, independent woman.

    Basically, the American workplace has accommodated a huge number of women, many of whom no doubt do their jobs well. But men are also carrying a lot of women who just can’t seem to carry their own weight. If women want to be treated as if they’re as good as men in the workplace, they have to BE as good as men. And guys like me have to stop being enablers for their slacking.

49. P.S. I WANT to see more strong, independent women. Real ones. Ones who get out there, kick ass, and GET THE JOB DONE! I’d be overjoyed to see more of them. Any of them. At least one.

50. @Vaquero: That must be really frustrating. I had to fire someone last year who was doing exactly the same thing. I gave him multiple feedback sessions on his consistently poor performance, which was a combination of slow speed and lots of errors. Despite this, he acted totally shocked when we let him go and made a lot of noise about how unfair it all was. I see this sense of entitlement a lot in younger employees, unfortunately. What’s worked for me is tracking metrics, setting goals and providing feedback early and often. I wish you luck; it can be a difficult situation and it’s hard to gauge how someone will react. Hopefully she takes it well and steps up her performance right away.

51. Sweet, I meet all your requirements, I guess I’m a bona fide “strong, independent woman” (though I doubt I’ve ever described myself that way).

    That said, I’m a little dismayed that it’s still so unusual, and that even the women posting here are admitting that they don’t fit the definition, don’t want to fit the definition, and specifically that NO woman does. But despite what Cheryl said, not all women cry at work or have meltdowns. In fact, plenty of them don’t. There is no way in hell I would ever cry at work, unless, perhaps, someone happened to do something so funny that I laughed so hard that I teared up.

    I’m not saying that every woman (or every man) has to want to be independent, since clearly many don’t, and that’s fine. But I’m still surprised that there are not more women who have that goal. I think a lot of this has to do with expectations, as most people will just abide by whatever the social norms are. For me, I was raised with the absolute expectation, my entire life, that I would be completely independent, and it literally never even occurred to me until I was well into adulthood that it was even possible for a woman to get a man to support her in exchange for sex/affection. I thought that was an old model that was discarded in the 50s and I didn’t realize that lots of people still live it until I actually got into the workplace. My parents both made the same amount of money and after they divorced, neither paid child support or alimony, so these things never occurred to me. When you live with both divorced parents, you see each parent do EVERY role so the idea of gender roles doesn’t really make sense. Both my mom and my dad did it all — worked full time at demanding jobs, cleaned, cooked, did the shopping, did the yard work, etc. And they made it look easy, too. Also, I wasn’t raised with any religion, which is the source of most forms of traditional gender roles. So because I didn’t see it modeled in my own family, nor talked about in church, it just never crossed my mind that men could or would support women financially (or that sex was frankly that valuable to be worth fetching a man’s labor like that…where I came from both genders were openly promiscuous and gave it away for free).

    So on the one hand there’s expectations, and most people will live up to *(or try to live up to) what’s expected of them. My parents expected me to be independent, so I am. So is my sister. I guess a lot of girls grow up with parents who expect them to be professional wives/mothers.

    On the other hand, there’s one’s actual enjoyment of fulfilling a certain role. As you’ve pointed out BD, women ASPIRE to be wives and mothers and are expected to be and want to be, but they often don’t actually ENJOY it. It’s mostly very boring and a lot of mundane drudgery. But they have limited imagination and just end up aspiring to the scripts they’ve been presented with by their culture. Because I think a LOT of women would find that they DO enjoy having power, financial independence, and the prestige, status, and respect that comes from the former two, if they would simply work hard enough to get there and see what it’s like first-hand. I’m at a point now where things have finally come to fruition and I command power and respect and can buy basically whatever I want and it is AWESOME. Of course, it took many years of work to get here, and some miserable years at that, but damn am I glad that I stuck it out because once you’re finally the boss and you get to make the decisions and people start asking for your permission rather than the other way around, and you get to tell people what to do rather than the other way around, and you get deference and respect and apologies instead of demands and commands and evaluations, everything gets 100 times better. In fact, it makes me laugh when men try to convince women that women aren’t suited for such things or don’t like them anyway…puh-leeze, we all know women who love bossing people around. However, I do think women are less likely to stick out the hard and miserable years of work to get to that point, as it takes a long time. They go for the easy way out. And I also think they don’t have many actual models of what it would look like to be financially independent, and perhaps they’re not as ambitious or imaginative as men. Or perhaps they don’t have as many unconventional/taboo predilections as me, which has always given me a strong incentive to want to control the means of my own freedom because I didn’t want to have to conform or pander to someone else.

    All I can say is that it is good, very good to be the boss and make lots of money and decide how to spend/invest it. Even I am somewhat surprised at how much of a pleasure it is, as when I was coming up the effort I put in was more because of expectations than intrinsically motivated. But now that I’ve gotten to the pay-off part, I can say without reservation that being the sole person in charge of your life and having power to live how you want are invaluably good, and I strongly encourage all women to consider this more seriously. I know that it sucks to get there but it is really, really worth it.

    Also, women who expect or demand men to pay for things/dates make me sick and always have. They’re the reason men don’t take women’s rights seriously, because the hypocrisy is so bald and blinding. You can’t hold on to the privileges of the old order while demanding that you be released from the restraints, it’s BS hypocrisy and men can clearly see that — it drives me insane! Besides, it’s not in a woman’s interest because when you start letting guys pay for shit is when you end up fucking an unattractive man with the sex appeal of a bowl of oatmeal. Get your own money and you have the freedom to choose men solely on the basis of how sexy and fun you think they are. 🙂

    All that said, what I’ve set forth above is probably not going to be workable for any woman that wants more than 1 or 2 kids. However, most women DON’T want more than 1 or 2 kids, so I don’t see why it’s not more common. Then again, this is also why I have way more male friends than female, because I can’t understand their mentality — the female friends I have are mostly independent like me so my in-group is self-selected and I don’t have a lot of exposure to more “mainstream” women’s perspectives. Whenever I get a taste, I’m often a little disappointed.

52. Ah, Kryptokate. If only there were more women like you…

53. Kryptokate, I wanted to clear up something I never said I was or wasn’t a strong woman and I also never said crying was ok or should be tolerated at work. I did say as a nurse I have had patients die and I’m not sure if you’ve ever gone through anything as emotional as having someone pass away ( I truly hope you haven’t)
    But this time and only this time have I cried.I find it unexcusable to do so otherwise and it shouldn’t be tolerated. I also never said for one second would I ever ever want a man to take care of me financially,Id appreciate not not being misquoted and put in a a fucking group that I do not belong in. A few things that i mentioned above were blown out of proportion and taken very literally. I just sat back and let the boys say their peace, but you know I didn’t think it would be a female that would toss me.under the bus so to say. I get that you are a boss of some sort at your employment, and that’s wonderful but I hope you can understand the fact that not all.women want to or care to be the boss at work. It doesn’t make them any less of a woman,it would be tough if we were all bosses right?
    Also the women I know do have more than 2 kids and they are happy..not everyone wants an 80 hr work week.
    Sachmo Im not making up childish or warped definitions I was saying its not completely the same. You cannot say strong and compare men and women in the same context do you think when they say a man is strong it means the same thing as when the same thing is said about a woman? I would think no because we all know a females physical strength can’t be be compared to a males much to kryptokate’s dismay or for lovegirls or mine as well I’m sure. Sometimes a little sense of humor goes a long way too guys christ you guys are tough.

54. @Kryptokate: You suggested that men may have superior ambition or motivation to women. That is not true. The real reason men are more innovative is because of the existence of gold diggers like Lovergirl. There are a tremendous number of beta males out there who are sincerely convinced that their sex lives are completely dependent upon their own financial success, innovation, and professional creativity. They do better professionally because women like Lovergirl will withhold sex if they don’t, and a majority of women are, unfortunately, this type of prostitute to a greater or lesser extent when dealing with betas.

    But no woman fears that her sex life is going to suffer in any way if she’s poor. For this reason, women aren’t pressured into the workforce the way men are. They are not pressured to exercise professional innovation, creativity, and ambition the way men are, because men won’t withhold sex if a woman is on welfare. And if she fails in the workplace, she can always find some male loser who will, in Lovergirl’s words, “take care of me.”

    What you call “women’s rights” is really a major step down for women. Equality is something women usually refer to as “cheap,” especially in the sexual sense. How many times have you heard a woman say “I’m not cheap” when faced with the prospect of being equal to a man as far as bedroom activities are concerned? “Women’s equality” is nothing less than dethroning women from their pedestals and forcing women to live or die without any safety nets provided by male worker bees.

    Sadly, most women enjoy being supremacists (whether conservative prostitutes or feminist man haters). As such, they are not motivated to have ambition or develop their intelligence, because no man with withhold sex if they don’t, and most men won’t refuse to slave away for her if she fails.

    When that changes, you will begin to see women’s ambition, creativity, and innovation skyrocket, because they will be put in the same position men were put in from the beginning of time – they will have no safety nets and no male “heroes” to catch them when they fall.

    As a man, I also propose we start withholding sex from females who are losers in the professional sense, thus taking away the gold digger’s pussy pass which has excused her thus far from facing the consequences of the real world.

    In short, it’s time we start treating women like equals.

    Ladies, welcome to hell!

55. The Private Man aptly points out that women actually say this strong/independent stuff because it’s what THEY want in a MAN. So it is simple projection.

    As for me….post divorce to a strong independent woman who cleaned me out…….I’m going with sweet and feminine. Although I find these big talkers end up in my bed just the same.

56. @ Cheryl — sorry, not trying to throw you under the bus, I was responding to when you said “There isn’t a female in the world who hasn’t had a meltdown because of it [hormones]” — I took that to mean crying at work, but I guess I misunderstood you. Crying at a death is appropriate, but most of us (hopefully) don’t deal with death at work. FWIW, the only person I’ve ever seen cry at work is a man, who cries often for all reasons, because he’s happy, sad, nostalgic, whatever. He also screams and is generally out of control of his emotions and no one likes him, however, he controls access to some of our biggest clients so we can’t get rid of him.

    Also, I totally understand that many (most?) people don’t want high-power positions of responsibility, and that more of them are women than men. That’s totally fine and understandable. And hell, I don’t want to work 60 hours a week either! (and rarely do). But what I was trying to say is that I think a lot of women don’t realize that they *would* enjoy it if they got through the dues-paying hard years to the pay-off years, because it gets much, much better if you work in a field where there is a lot of advancement opportunity or a chance to open your own shop. Before I became an owner in my company and was appointed to the board, I didn’t think I wanted it either — too much responsibility. So I’ve been surprised myself at how much better it actually is, that power and respect and money are VERY rewarding and that the small trade-off in increased responsibility is well worth it, when you now get to delegate to others and have autonomy to make decisions.

    So while I think there are some general gender differences here (with an overlapping bellcurve) — some women are just going to want to stay home with babies, and that’s perfectly fine — I do think that a lot of this comes down to (1) expectations, and (2) social scripts/role models. I simply would not have stuck with it and gotten to where I am if it wasn’t for the fact that I felt a duty to live up to my parents expectations. That sense of obligation/guilt got me through the hard years, but then as I had increasing success I found that it became internally rewarding as well and is now something I actually enjoy and wouldn’t give up. But I also had a clear role model because my mom was a very successful business woman, even though she didn’t even start in the workforce until her 30s when she was done having kids. So I knew what it looked like. But for women who don’t have either those social expectations or any models of professionally successful women, I think it’s much, much more unlikely that they’ll even think of trying.

    Another aspect here is the “daddy’s little princess” syndrome. A lot of fathers actively train their daughters to be coy and cute and flirt and sulk as a way to get things. They say things like how their daughter has him “wrapped around her little finger” and spoil her and give in to her when she sulks and bats her eyelashes because she’s so darn cute. I understand the instinct but this sets a girl up for a lifetime of using flirtation to get what she wants. That shit did NOT fly with my dad and I was definitely NOT his little princess — he expected performance. So again, it literally just never even occurred to me until I was well into adulthood that one could use feminine charms to get things from men.

    Bottom line is that I have had plenty of days when I’m flying to work, stressed as hell about deadlines, and have felt a lot of envy for the stay at home moms leisurely pushing carriages in the sun or going to pilates or taking their kids to the pool while I’m stuck in an office every day. However, now that I’ve gotten to the pay-off phase of my career, and all the rewards that brings, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. And there will be plenty of days for swimming and walks and sun when I retire at 50. 😉 It’s the long-game.

    That said, I just bought BD’s book specifically to read his advice on getting several businesses that serve many clients so that no one client owns you. That’s a fantastic idea. Because I may no longer be an employee, but our clients still call the shots and we have a few big clients, not a lot of little ones. All my decisions are aimed at maximizing my freedom, so I’m definitely going to look into this…

57. Kryptokate is pointing something out that is really really sad about women today. Some of them have a strong desire to compete and succeed as individuals but are strongly discouraged by society to do so.

    I can only imagine the huge pressure that is put on you girls to not focus on your dreams and carrers, forcing you to give that up to start a family (specially after you turn 30).

    I think this has a strong correlation with the “strong and independent” stuff BD has talked about.

58. @ Jack Outside the Box-

    I feel amused by your calling me a gold digger and even more amused at being told I withhold sex from men. Nope…

    I take no shame in the fact that I do not have excessive “drive” and “motivation” to be successful. I’m a totally type B woman, lol.

    I love children and all I ever wanted to do before I had them was work with other people’s children. I’m perfectly happy in a more traditionally feminine role at home and leaving things like drive and ambition up to other people, like my man, when I have one. I do what I need to do now, but its only because I have to. I have no desire to be a leader, in the home or anywhere else.

    I have no issue with women who WANT to be “strong and independent” and I think they are perfectly within their right. I think being a stay at home mom is a worthwhile endeavor as well and that women shouldn’t be forced to be in the work force if they don’t want to be either. Many of us, deep down, DON’T want that.

59. @ Jack Outside the Box

    You’re right that about the ONLY thing that would make women step up en masse and start working harder, improving themselves, and offering more than feminine charms would be if they feared sexual rejection from men. Well, ISIS-style brutality and violence would make it happen too, but that’s not pleasant for anyone but psychopaths so let’s not go there. But if men were to start being as demanding as women, and (like many women) preferring to remain single rather than lower their standards, you’d see an increase in female competitiveness that would likely benefit society as a whole (though women would hate it, of course).

    However, until porn/VR girlfriends become really good, it’s hard to see that happening. Yes, there are MGTOWS. There are also plenty of alpha males that absolutely act this way — the ones who are more driven by pride than sex. I know a few tall, goodlooking, dominant, rich alpha dudes who absolutely will NOT date a woman unless she is both model-gorgeous AND has a high-status, high-paying, socially-respected career. And they’ll go without if they can’t get it at the time. But that’s because those guys ultimately know they are capable of getting that girl, they just need to meet her. Most guys don’t have that chance and they’ll take what they can get.

    Of course, looks and sex appeal can trump virtually any amount of bad behavior, for all but the most prideful or morally upright. I’ve also known guys who have put up with appalling levels of truly gutter-levels of trash behavior from a woman young and hot enough — like the 20-years younger pretty girlfriend of my otherwise-intelligent friend who he had full knowledge was a heroine addict, was stealing from him and lying to him constantly, and ditched him on several vacations he took her on to go give blowjobs to strangers on the street for the drugs that she couldn’t bring on the plane. Anyway, that is getting off-topic.

    The point is, guys *could* demand a collective improvement in what women have to offer, but they can only do so collectively, not individually, or the macro-SMP won’t change. And they don’t seem to have it in them.

    Though — contradicting myself and just thinking through the examples of people I know — I do see a lot of divorced guys making this decision. Most of my divorced male friends who got cleaned-out by years of alimony to their stay-at-home-wives absolutely refuse to get involved with any woman now who isn’t able to fully support herself and with a serious dedication to a career. Of course, those are also guys who already had their kids and aren’t looking for more, so that somewhat changes the equation.

    IMO, there is absolutely no good reason for any person to ever marry someone who has significantly less assets/earning power than oneself, unless you have a rock-solid prenup. Otherwise you’re just setting yourself up to get cleaned out.

60. Damn, brevity is not my strong suit. 😉

61. @Kryptokate: I agree that what was modeled by our parents is definitely what many of us emulate. My mom sounds similar to yours, except in reverse – she had a high-powered job up until she had me at 35, and then left the work force for the most part. I was always told by both my parents that I could do whatever I wanted with my life, and nothing less than my best was acceptable. I definitely carried that attitude into adulthood, and can’t for the life of me understand how people can settle for mediocrity in the workplace – don’t they want to improve and be their personal best?

    The only thing is now that my dad passed away, my mom is suddenly pressuring me to have a kid, but I’ve never really seen marriage and/or children as part of my future. I didn’t even fantasize about it when I was a kid. It’s possible that could change in a few years I suppose, but I doubt it – I’m 30 now and the desire isn’t there at all. I think she just had such a great relationship with my dad, she wants that for me as well. I spend weekends with my boyfriend and am perfectly content with that. She doesn’t view it as a “real” relationship, since we live mostly separate lives and don’t plan to move in together or get married. Unconventional I suppose, but it works for us!

62. I really miss the good old fashioned women we once had, compared to today.

63. @ KryptoKate

    You have a lot to say, and I like it. I don’t agree with everything but I like it.

    I’m pretty sure I know at least as many men as I do women who are guilty of boasting about their independence when they actually aren’t. Perhaps that has to do with my locale and my social circle.

64. The part where you state “Your not a strong independent woman if you cry at work if your upset” is totally a misconception just because you are a strong independent woman doesn’t mean you are not allowed to cry, we are human everybody cries . So to say that an independent woman isn’t independent if she cries is ignorant. Actually being an independent woman is being able to shed some tears if your upset and things didn’t go your way and be able to bounce back from those tears and keep on going , that’s what accounts for as being ” strong, independent , and human”. Also when you stated “You are not a strong, independent woman if require a roommate or live-in boyfriend to help cover your rent”, that is a misconception also, if you live with a roommate or your boyfriend  why cant you both go half and half on the rent. When you agree to live with somebody you are co-renters , to not expect any money from your bf or roommate while ya are living together under the same roof is dumb and instead of being independent you are being an naïve. Being independent doesn’t mean you pay all the bills while having someone else live under the same roof, being independent in this situation is having your half of the rent ready by the due date and If your significant   other  or  roommate doesn’t have their half ,  addressing the situation and putting an end to it is putting your food down . This article is misleading in a lot of way some points were valid  but many others were bias and ignorant.

65. So to say that an independent woman isn’t independent if she cries is ignorant.

    I didn’t say cry. I said cry at work. It’s not an appropriate place to cry.

    Also when you stated “You are not a strong, independent woman if require a roommate or live-in boyfriend to help cover your rent”, that is a misconception also, if you live with a roommate or your boyfriend  why cant you both go half and half on the rent.

    You can. I didn’t say if you pay half the rent. I said if you require a roommate to pay your rent where you live. If you can pay 100% of your own rent, then you’re independent.

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

66. It is very sad how women have Changed today since the early days. Just too many very Money Hungry high maintenance women that are out there now which is very sad.

67. Are we Brothers? Clones? Etc? I have been saying these same things for decades. Ironically most of the statements you have made in your blog are Biblical (according to my sister). Very interesting. But as you mention women (mainly in the US) fight against this concept and are devoutly religious. people today have been sold a bill of goods. The “love me for who I am (fat, not phat chicks) the no makeup bland Earth child chicks, the bareleggers (no stockings etc to cover up their ugly shit), the old ladies (the ones that make no attempt to stay youthful on any level), and of course my favorite, the entitled, egotistical self absorbed narcissists. Even my doctor made the statement “if you are healthy @ 55 (me) your Johnson will work just fine with the right stimuli”! And it does without pills etc! “nothing like a John Holmes Special @ 55!!!!! And that all comes being around youthful, breedable women. Not the “accept me for who I am that want to drink wine while walking on the beach at sunset being grossly overweight. Try being thin, in shape, makeup on, perfume, stockings, heels, something short on (who cares). You are right, You are right, You are right!!!! I’ve have women half my age hitting on me! The correct kind of work can be an aphrodisiac to women. I work all the time and when I sleep well I am like I am 25! No lie. And it is all biology, if you are breedable you are in! Then the ability to be able to speak, have a brain, not have a gut hanging over the fuel tank of your Harley! (get a sport bike) LOL And all this happens in my work clothes when I am dirty with no money! One of my friends won’t even date women over thirty, or US women! Period! “They are a pain in the ass”! Like my buddies friend the chicken man said ” when they hit forty the crazy switch gets turned on”. Countless stories. Women are out of hand here and it is proliferating all over the world like a cancer. Like Nicholson said in As Good As It Gets; I take a man and take away all reason and accountability”. I told one of my friends “I don’t know what my wife is thinking” She said “we don’t know what we are thinking” and explained it to me how abstract the women’s brain is. For that I will always hold her with deep regard. As well as knowing 5 men divorcing their Jewish wives after their kids graduate from college because statistically they last ten to twelve years less being married to a Jewish woman. HMMMM. Well it’s time to get back to work!

68. Wow, so you women have a Career? Big deal, who really cares how much money you make anyway? I sure don’t. The very sad thing is that so many of you women are very greedy and selfish to begin with which is a complete turn off for many of us Good men since many of us men really don’t like strong independent women at all. I’ll take a real Good old fashioned woman anytime compared to the ones that are Everywhere today which it is a real shame for us men that they’re all gone now.

69. I hear this nonsense all the time. It’s a social sin to be a black woman with no desire to boss adults around. I had to take a break with my 45 year old, because he loves drama and regularly threw tests at me to see if I reacted like a bossy bitch. I failed every time. He’s also a liar, denying he has a Mono-GF.

    I think, wow, if only he was a chill confident dude who doesn’t feel the need to sneak and decieve to get what he wants, we’d have a good time.

    I think he wants a Mother-type to “care” about him i.e. he gets off on being nagged and screamed at–he needs a Strong Independent Woman™.

70. “Does that sound like a woman who cries at work or screams at someone for correctly suggesting she’s screaming because she’s on her period?”

     

    Every time it has happened to me I have thought I was unlucky.

    Glad to see it’s a normal thing lol

71. Well this has a lot to do with it why so many of us men are still single today because of these type of very pathetic women that really think they’re all that, but are certainly Not at all to begin with anyway.  These women are just very horrible since they have the worst personality and no respect all all for many of us men either, and the way that most of the women are nowadays which they will just grow old all alone with their cats.