Objections to OLTRs and Open Marriages
Over the last few weeks, I’ve seen a decent amount of comments and emails from men objecting to the concept of the OLTR or OLTR marriage, particularly the OLTR marriage (which I describe here and here).
Most of these objections demonstrate that men making these objections have a significant misunderstanding of what an OLTR is and is not. I’m not sure if this is because we’re running into a reading comprehension problem here (oh so common on the internet) or if it’s because my communication regarding the concept of OLTR has been less than it could be. I’ll be a nice guy and assume it’s the latter.
To set the record straight, today I’m going to go through the objections I’ve seen and their answers. I’ll present them in no particular order.
1. Blackdragon, you’ve been dating women for almost a decade and had sex with all these girls, have had all these MLTRs and FBs, yet you’ve had only one OLTR. Dude, that’s a terrible success rate! That shows how rare OLTRs are.
You’re forgetting, or not understanding, that you can only have one OLTR at a time. OLTRs are not like FBs, MLTRs, lays, or notch counts, where if you rack up a big number of them you’re “successful.” No, OLTRs work exactly the opposite. If you had a lot of them, it would show that you’re a moron and that you didn’t know what the hell you were doing. It would be like having ten marriages in your past. It’s seriously like saying to a guy who’s been married for the last 20 years, “In the last 20 years you’ve only been marred ONCE? Dude, you don’t know anything about marriage. Clearly marriage is very rare.”
Take a guy who has one OLTR that lasts ten years. During that same ten year period, he has sex with 100 FBs on the side. You walk up to him and say, “You only had one OLTR in the last ten years of having sex with women? Wow dude, you suck. Clearly OLTRs don’t work and are really rare.”
I laughed as I typed that. No, that guy has actually proven that OLTRs work, and work great. He was successful at creating an OLTR that worked. If you’re expecting that guy to have 10 or 20 OTLRs over a 10 year period, then you’re looking at this completely ass-backwards.
Having lots of FBs or MLTRs over a ten year period, yeah, that shows success. If you’re a Thrill of the Hunt guy or a hardcore player, having sex with lots of women over a ten year period would be considered a success (at least to certain people; I think a goal of sexing a lot of women just to have a high notch count is childish, but that’s only an opinion and you’re free to disagree). But with OLTRs, you don’t want a lot of them. You want to see only a very tiny number of them that each lasted a very long time. That’s an indicator of success.
Alright, now let’s get to me. As of this writing I’ve been dating women under an FB / MLTR framework for a little over eight years. During that time, I’ve only had one OLTR. She lasted about 5.5 years. During that time frame, I couldn’t have any other OTLRs because you can only have one OLTR at a time. Moreover, that relationship was consistent, with no LSFNTEs or breaks at all. I only had to soft her a grand total of three times in 5.5 years. That’s very good thing.
On top of that, during the 18 months (or so) of my new Alpha Male 2.0 existence (2007-2009 or so), I wasn’t looking for an OLTR at all and just wanted to get laid. So if you deduct those 1.5 years from my total of eight years, that’s 6.5 years, and 5.5 of those years I was in an OLTR (or close to it).
(To the nitpickers, I’m not using 100% exact figures here, since I’d have to look this stuff up in my spreadsheets and calculate a few things to verify precise figures, so feel free to plus or minus 6-12 months from all of this. It still demonstrates what I’m saying.)
Could I have done better? Sure, I suppose. Yet what I just described huge OLTR success story, not a failure. The world would be a much happier place if men were having OLTRs that lasted 5.5 years instead farting around with absolute sexual monogamy (which doesn’t work) or constant one night stands (which isn’t a sustainable lifestyle).
So any time you see a guy making a comment indicating that a low number of OLTRs is indicative of some kind of failure or difficulty, remember that guy doesn’t understand what an OLTR is. Unlike with lays, notch counts, FBs, or MLTRs, success with OLTRs is not how many you’ve had; it’s how few you’ve had and how long they last.
And remember folks, they won’t last forever no matter what you do, since ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY. This leads us right into the next objection…
2. OLTRs are Disney. It’s just wishful thinking on your part.
I have said, clearly and repeatedly over many years, that even if you get into an OLTR or OLTR marriage, it will still end. She will still eventually dump your ass and move on (or you will dump her and move on). That’s how women work. It’s unavoidable. Unless both of you are already over the age of 60, ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY. I’ve probably typed those four words on blogs or forums over a thousand times.
Disney is a fairy tale. Disney doesn’t exist. Here’s my clear definition of the term in my glossary (emphasis mine):
Disney – Any thought derived from societal programming that monogamy, child rearing, or traditional marriage is pleasant and/or permanent in the modern era. Disney is usually suffered by women, but a certain variation can be suffered by men as well (see: Guy-Disney).
And here’s the guy version:
Guy-Disney – The incorrect thought men have that somewhere out there is a girl who will love you forever, never cheat on you, never get bored with you, and never break up with you.
There you go. Disney means “lasts forever.” It’s false. Disney is a false concept from the monogamy world. It means that if you just do certain things right and find the right girl, you can be together forever and it will be great. And of course it’s utter bullshit.
1. Never have I said, or even implied, that an OLTR or OLTR marriage will last forever.
2. Never have I said, or even implied, that an OLTR or OLTR marriage will be drama-free or problem-free.
Instead, I have very clearly stated the exact opposite, many times:
1. I’ve said that if you get into an OLTR, you need to plan in advance that it will fail (end) someday and that you should not expect it to last forever. You need to lay in financial, physical, and sexual logistics to prevent damage when the relationship ends, which it will.
2. I’ve said that if you can get an OLTR to last just ten years, you’re really lucky. Most guys, including the ones who really know what they’re doing, are usually looking at a time frame of 2-7 years for these kinds of relationships. This includes me!
3. I’ve said that if you get into an OLTR, you’ll still occasionally need to soft next her and/or put up with regular drama and female bullshit from her.
4. I’ve said that the reason I’ve haven’t had an OLTR lately, despite wanting one, and despite getting offers from many woman for one (more on this in a minute), is because my drama tolerance is very low, and gets lower the older I get. I know that if I were to get an OLTR, I’d have to put up with a noticeably higher amount of regular woman drama than I have now sticking with FBs and MLTRs.
Do any of the above items sound like Disney to you?
To be clear: Is OLTR better than monogamy? Hell yes! ANYTHING is better than long-term monogamy. Long-term monogamy, particularly if enforced by a largely left-wing, anti-man governmental structure, is the worst of the nine options you have as you age. But saying that OLTR is better than monogamy is a far cry from saying OLTR is “Disney.” It’s not!
Of course having an OLTR is awesome. Guys I know with OLTRs (and I know many) are really happy. When I had mine it was great. I was in love with a woman I cared for deeply, pair-bonded just like a guy with a girlfriend or wife, yet could still go out and have sex with different women whenever I wanted (and I did!). But was it Disney? Ha! No! Not even close. (For example, notice I’m not in that relationship anymore.)
As I’ve said before, ALL of your long-term relationship options as a man in the 21st century suck. None of your available options are going to be ideal. Monogamy, traditional marriage, MLTRs, OLTR, staying single the rest of your life, all of these choices going to have problems (particularly if you want to have children). I don’t like it any more than you do, but that’s the reality you must face.
The goal then, is not to find something that’s good, because none of the long-term options are good. The goal is to find the one that is the least bad. And the least bad for most men (though not all) is OLTR or OLTR marriage. It has the most amount of upside and the least amount of downside. But it’s not Disney, since there’s is still a lot of downside in an OLTR for an Alpha Male, including semi-regular drama you’ll have to put up with, the fact you have rules from a woman you must follow, the fact your relationship/marriage will end someday and cause you unhappiness, etc.
3. OLTRs don’t exist in real life (except for maybe a few super rare exceptions). I’ve never seen anyone do it, and you’re not doing it right now Blackdragon, therefore they don’t exist.
I really wished I didn’t have to explain how stupid this objection is, but sadly, I’ve seen numerous men give it. So apparently I have to explain why something can be not only possible, but common, even if you’ve never seen any of your personal friends or family members clearly demonstrate it right in front of your eyeballs.
Here are just a few facts, both anecdotal and national:
1. I personally know at least six live-in OLTR couples. One of them have been together for 22 years. Another has been together for 16. Four of these couples have kids.
2. I’ve had sex with at least six women who were in open marriages. The last such woman had been married for 16 years and had two kids with her husband. I found all these women using normal, everyday dating sites like OKCupid. They were not hard to find at all.
3. I’ve spoken with well over 100, perhaps hundreds of men (and women) who are in long-term OLTRs or OTLR marriages right now.
4. When writing my ebook on open marriages, I interviewed 41 men in live-in OLTRs. These were men who either married to a wife or living full time with a girlfriend, all of whom sleep with other women on the side, and their wives knew and stayed with them anyway. If memory serves, 40% of these men were raising kids with these women. These men were not difficult to find. I already knew many of them either personally or online.
5. Over the years, I have turned down multiple women (about eight or so) offering me OLTR marriage or something that looked very close to it. That doesn’t count the women who have offered OLTR (not marriage, just OLTR) that I turned down.
Yes, I’d like an OLTR, but my ultra-low drama tolerance might make this impossible or unlikely for me. Not for other men, who usually don’t mind a little drama and sometimes even like it, but for me, who is an unusually inflexible asshole about this. (I really, really dislike woman-drama, as longtime readers already know. I’m all about happiness, and you can’t have drama and happiness at the same time.)
6. On both iterations of the Fast Seduction forums, both the old ASF (now gone) and the current version at Sedfast, there were and are numerous men in OLTRs or OLTR marriages. Here’s just a few of the forum names I remember: JetSetJim, Sethtrump, Baybars, Bad Boyfriend, Sudine, Franco. Those are just off the top of my head; if I sat down and really racked my brain and did some searches, I could come up with many more. (Note that not all of these guys were practicing OLTRs exactly the way I recommend, but they still had them, many of them with kids too. Many of these men read this blog.)
7. Up to 15% of married couples have an agreement that they’re allowed to get sex on the side. (source) This estimate is very low because of reasons I’ll state in a minute. It’s true a lot of these men don’t always exercise this option, because as I’ve said, most men are betas and a lot of monogamous Alphas have grown lazy.
8. As I talked about in my book, there have been various mainstream articles (though not nearly enough) describing how there are literally millions of Americans in open or polyamorous marriages. Again, these stated figures are low, for reasons I’ll make clear in a minute.
9. None of the above this takes into account the sheer number of millions of marriages where one spouse cheats, the other spouse finds out but stays anyway and puts up with it. Make no mistake, these are OLTRs. They’re extremely dysfunctional OLTRs to be sure, and not at all the way I’d recommend them, but they’re OLTRs. They’re open marriages. (More on this in a minute.)
I could do on and on with more facts, but I have to get to the other objections. Just because you haven’t seen something in person doesn’t mean millions upon millions of people aren’t doing this, or doing variations of it. This includes people you know personally right now.
It’s true that there aren’t a lot of sources defining specific numbers of how many OLTRs there are in society right now. The numbers on surveys and things like that are also deceivingly low. Do you know why this is? Do you know why you (possibly) haven’t seen any of your personal friends or family members tell you they do this?
It’s because they want to keep it a secret. They’ve learned, often the hard way, that when you have a very serious, nonmonogamous relationship, you need to keep your mouth shut, otherwise society will ostracize you. Your friends will look down at you. Your parents will get upset. You might get shut out of certain jobs or careers. Even your own partner will give you hell for telling other people, even if she’s completely down for an OLTR.
It’s easy for more strong-willed guys (and some women!) to brag about having a harem of FBs or MLTRs when they aren’t pair-bonded to anyone in particular. But when you have one single OLTR, your girlfriend or wife, with her picture next to you on your Facebook page, going to parties with family and friends and other moms and dads, are you going to go around bragging to everyone about that hot 21 year-old blonde fuck buddy you’re banging every Wednesday?
Nope. No matter how much you want to, you’re going to keep very, very quiet about it, even if your OLTR is totally cool with you doing it. I’ve said many times that discretion is a mandatory part of an OTLR, society being what it is at the moment.
It will be several more decades before Societal Programming calms down about this, particularly in the United States with its religious, right-wing, Disney-infested past. Europe is about 15-20 years ahead of us tightass Americans on this one. This is why I almost never see Europeans talk about how unrealistic nonmonogamy is. They already know it works, because they’re already doing it (while Americans whine about how it’s “not realistic”).
That’s why you haven’t heard much about people doing it. It’s not because they aren’t doing it. They are.
4. OLTRs won’t work because they’re against female biology.
Go to this blog post right now and read about all the women who stay with men even though they cheat. If women’s biology mandated that they instantly dump any guy who has sex with another woman, how do you explain this?
Well, that’s because those are rich celebrities, Blackdragon. That’s different.
Alright. Sit down and go through every married couple or serious, long-term boyfriend/girlfriend couple (living together) you’ve ever known. Now think through all the guys who’ve cheated on these women and got caught. Since monogamy doesn’t work, it will be a pretty big list. Now go back through the list and remember the number of women who stayed with these men anyway. Again, you’ll have a decent list. I know I do.
Now ask yourself: were any of these guys wealthy or celebrities?
I doubt any of them were. Yet the women stayed. Why? How could this be if this was “against women’s biology?”
Well, okay, yeah BD, sometimes that happens, but those guys are Alphas.
BINGO! They’re ALPHAS. Women stay with Alphas even if they have sex with other women. That’s one of the many advantages of being an Alpha.
Why do you think I keep telling men to be an Alpha? Because it’s awesome, that’s why. And yes, women will stick around. They won’t stick around constantly; that’s not what women do, but they’ll still stick around more or less. (Recall my 94% return rate.)
Of course a beta won’t make a long-term OLTR work (unless the woman is a high sex drive Dominant who’s calling the shots). But that has nothing to do with female biology.
If you are A) financially taking care of a woman and B) giving her the children she desires and C) being very discreet about your screwing around on the side so she doesn’t look bad to her social circle, then yes, women will stay with you for a long, long time in an OLTR. If she doesn’t stay, it’s likely because you didn’t provide an incentive for her to stay because you violated one of the above three items. This is why Maria divorced Arnold. Not because he was fucking around. He was always fucking around! It’s because he finally did it in a way that wasn’t discreet.
Women’s biology desires security, children, and approval from their social circle. You can provide all three in a discreet OLTR. Women’s biology does not require sexual monogamy nor legal marriage, thus you can avoid those two things and still pair bond (if you create and maintain the OLTR correctly).
5. Only a very tiny percentage of men are ever going to be able to pull off an OLTR.
Two answers to this.
Answer one. It’s absolutely true that betas are not going to be able to pull off an OLTR the way I describe. Betas are screwed no matter what. Since most men (about 70% or so) are betas, then you are somewhat correct. 70% of men have no hope in hell of ever creating an OLTR (outside of a female-centric one) unless they man-up and become Alphas. That’s exactly why more men should read my blog and my books and blogs/books like it, so we can have less miserable betas out there and more happy Alphas.
However, that still leaves around 30% of men who are not betas. I agree 30% is a smaller percentage, but it’s not a “tiny” percentage.
I have estimated that 25% of men are Alpha Male 1.0s and 5% are Alpha Male 2.0s. Alpha Male 2.0s can create an OLTR, no problem, just about any time they want (unless they have horribly low drama tolerances like me). Alpha Male 1.0s could create an OLTR if they calmed down on the outcome dependence and territoriality. The ones that choose to do this can have a long-lasting OLTR or OLTR marriage. The ones that choose not to do this will continue to either be players or have dysfunctional OLTRs (which would be promising monogamy and then cheating and getting caught, or having an OLTR with way too many rules, violating those rules, and getting drama for it).
Therefore, Alphas who purposely avoid OLTRs are choosing to do so, not because they are unable to do it. I’m a perfect example of this. (There are, seriously, at least three women I know right now who would enter into an OLTR with me right now, right this minute, if I asked them to. I chose not to.)
Answer two. When you say only a small percentage of men can make this work, what exactly are you comparing this to? Are you comparing this to traditional monogamous marriage? Do you know what the success rate is for that right now? The last time I compiled the numbers, traditional monogamous marriage had an 87% failure rate. This means that if you get married and monogamous, there’s an 87% chance that eventually you will cheat, or she will cheat, or you’ll get divorced, or you’ll end up with a shitty, resentful marriage in your old age.
That’s based on figures back in 2009. As I’ve clearly shown, divorce statistics and infidelity statistics all over the Western world have become worse since then, and continue to grow even worse with every passing year. I would venture to guess that the overall failure rate for monogamous marriage for people getting married now, post 2014, is probably around 94%, if not higher.
That means you’re looking at approximately 6% of men who can “pull off” a successful monogamous forever marriage, and the vast majority of those men are low sex drive beta males. Are you a low sex drive beta male? I sure hope not.
So there you go. The five objections I’ve seen to OLTRs, rebutted.
Now stop complaining and get to work on making a better life for yourself.
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@ BD
If one accepts the above statement, all the rest falls into place. Quod Erat Demonstrandum. 🙂
I didn’t know you’d had an OLTR till I read this. You state that a requirement for an OLTR is to have only FB‘s in addition to your OLTR; in other words, no MLTRs allowed. Did you really not have any MLTRs during that 5.5 year period w/ your OLTR or did you bend the rules a little bit?
Oh boy. This is good. I’ve got the popcorn ready. ?
Correct. I think some guys believe I’m saying OLTRs are a clever way around that. It’s not. Human beings don’t pair-bond forever (barring the very rare exception to the rule) no matter what you do or how you do it. They’re not biologically designed for that. They never were.
I don’t bend the rules. Bending rules = drama. Once she became an OLTR, correct, I had no MLTRs. Had some close FBs, but no MLTRs. She didn’t become an OLTR as soon as I met her though. Like I said, that takes time. So during the ramp-up phase, which was, I would guess 1.5 years(?), I had other MLTRs.
Therefore we were together consistently for 5.5 years, but she as an “official” OLTR for about 4(ish). Again, I may be off by a little bit but that’s a close estimate. She was an FB for a long time, then MLTR, then OLTR (which is how you’re supposed to do this).
For any of the guys who want to debate me, now that I’ve posted this, let me know if you still want to debate the topic of OLTR now that I’ve answered many of the objections raised in the other thread (but I won’t debate specific points I already addressed in the above post, so if yo want to debate this topic, you’d better have something new).
BD great write up here to answer the critics. I’ve also believe that many stats on infidelity are way low since 1) Many people lie about this and won’t admit to affairs(or claim something “didn’t really count” and 2) Many people don’t get caught. I’m not proud to admit it but I’ve done it many times in my younger days and only got busted once. I know many others that have also cheated and not been found out yet.
Your definition of an OLTR is where the partners continuously fuck each other while both getting some on the side too, right? Do you know how many of the OLTR couples you refer to above meet the continuously fucking each other criteria, in particular the women? If it’s most or all, does this not imply that women are actually biologically polyamorous rather than serial monogamous as you’ve previously written about?
All the open relationships I know of went through long phases where the partners weren’t fucking each other at all because the woman wasn’t interested, although they still stayed together. However I think you previously said that if your OLTR partner was no longer interested in fucking you it’d be relationship over, right?
good article, oltr is the best model for guys after 35….Is this the girl you are talking about(on sedfast post), on several discussion on sedfast you said you never had an oltr, just a high level mltr almost oltr, is this the girl http://www.pua-zone.com/showthread.php?11076-Relationship-Report-My-Longest-*Consistent*-MLTR-Ends-Its-Almost-5-Year-Record
Curious for you to clarify your oltr, again in several discussions you said you never had one… If i am mistaken i apologize in advance.
Correct. Stats on these things will never be accurate; they’ll always be way too low.
And that they have made promises and commitments to each other about the nature of the side-fucking, yes. (You can have two partners fuck each other while fucking others and have it be an MLTR too, but that’s different; there are no rules there.)
As I’ve written about in detail in my book, women don’t “continuously” do anything. Women in OLTRs will sometimes fuck other guys, and sometimes won’t. They can go a year or two without fucking anyone else even if the guy is still playing around. Then they’ll start again. Women aren’t always horny like men are.
Even some men sometimes go through times where they don’t fuck other women in OLTRs, though this is a big mistake. Once you go about 30-40 days without fucking anyone else other than your main gal, you’re monogamous, thus subject to all the usual problems of monogamy, namely betaization and drama.
No, because all (or most) these women in OLTRs will eventually dump their guy and go find a new guy. ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY. And usually, this new relationship will be monogamous…until she dumps him too.
Yes, I know a few like this as well. It’s hard to call these open relationships because there is no sex, but I know what you mean.
No, I think I’ve even said the opposite, that if she didn’t want to have sex with me, that’s fine, I’ll find it with my FBs. I’ve also said here that she could gain a lot of weight too. No problem, I’ll just fuck hotties on the side.
With MLTRs, that’s different! If they refuse sex, boom, instant soft next! But if I was “married” and living with an an OLTR via an OLTR marriage AND she literally didn’t want to have sex any more AND she was super low drama AND she was 100% cool with me fucking other women several times a week with ZERO jealousy in our own home, then fine, I’d be cool with that.
The problem is the odds are very low that all of those “ands” would be true. Likely if she was refusing sex, there would be other problems (drama, etc) and I’d have to next her ass. These guys living with open-but-sexless wives/GFs are usually putting up with a lot of oether drama and bullshit…something I would never tolerate (which is why I don’t have an OLTR!).
For most guys over 35, yes. There are a few exceptions to the rule though, but generally you’re right, OLTR is the best model for most.
Yep.
Those discussions where when guys were complaining I never had a live-in OLTR or OLTR marriage, which is true; never had that. I may never have that (for reasons I described in the above article). I have to differentiate between the different types of OLTRs without confusing people, who are confused enough about the difference between MLTRs, OLTR, etc. It’s kind of a nightmare communicating these concepts sometimes.
I did call the woman you’re talking about an FB, MLTR, a high-end MLTR, a “defaco OLTR,” and an OLTR, and she was all of those things at one time or another. In the latter years she was an OLTR (just not a live-in one!). I just avoided that word for the OLTR marriage guys.
A lot of guys hear the term “OLTR” and assume you mean you’re living with a woman and getting ready to have kids or something. I never got that far with her, thus the confusion.
I’m sure there’s a better way to communicate all this (MLTR, OLTR, multiple types of OLTRs, etc). Doing the best I can.
I agree that all relationships are temporary – mono ones and non-mono ones, but I don’t agree that they all have the same cycle time.
Read the book ‘Opening Up’ – which at least on the web seems to get high marks as far as open relationships go, and it seemed to be the case from the hundred or so couples interviewed that non-mono relationships have a shorter cycle time (meaning they break up sooner).
In the book – the only one I’ve read admittedly, but real stats on this stuff are scarce – the main cause of the OLTR ending was when one of the two people in the relationship started developing feelings toward an FB or MLTR.
An an NT, I don’t think this would be a problem for me, generally I’ve got the self control thing down. But women are emotional. I think most women that exercise their ‘option’ will eventually fall for one of their other partners, at least the sort of chicks that I go for.
What commonly happened in the book was that the formerly open marriages turned into bizarre arrangements like ‘triads’ or they broke up. I have no interest in that ‘triad’ kind of stuff, so if something like that happened I would either break it off or she would. (I think it would be difficult to downgrade someone you might have deep feelings for).
So a couple questions for you BD, in your anecdotal experience how long have typical OLTRs lasted among your acquaintances? Also, have any turned into oddball structures like ‘triads’ or anything like that?
I guess my objection with OLTRs is that they don’t seem to be conducive to raising kids, particularly small infants. I feel like at the point in your life when you decide to have a kid, you really need to make the decision to be parents first (for at least the first 2-3 yrs) and lovers second. Maybe it’s an unfair assumption, but I have a hard time imagining this level of solidarity in an OLTR vs a mono relationship.
If you are in a mono relationship with a woman, sure you’ll put up with a bunch of drama and less sex – but you can actually have an intact family long enough to meaningfully raise small kids. After you pop ’em out, if things don’t work out, you can always break things off and live the non-mono lifestye – but I think coming at it for the first time it’s worth trying with all legal protections in place (prenup, parenting agreement, no mixed finances, etc).
Not a concern for guys that have already had their kids, but if you’re not yet through that period of your life yet – it’s a consideration.
If you have no interest in raising kids or you are past that point in your life, then I think I would agree with most everything you mentioned above, with the exception that being serially mono with no marriage can also be fun with a high sex drive girl — really depends on the situation, and you shouldn’t make these decisions too abstractly.
OK, what’d confused me at least was I remembered from the ‘How Open Marriage Works’ post where you’d said that “if she doesn’t want to have sex with me, she’s done, relationship over”. However if you’re now saying that actually you could stay together with some provisos then yes, that seems plausible. In fact, it sounds weirdly similar to the reality of many (maybe even most?) so-called “monogamous” relationships today! 😀
You will accuse me of being a nitpicker, but when we have debated this before you said it was just under 3 years that it was an OLTR and now you are saying it is over 4. Seems odd that you would get your single most important relationship wrong by a year or more.
You quote marriage failure rate at 87% but you basically rate OLTR failure rate at 100%. Yes it is less painful to extricate yourself from an OLTR but in a marriage with a pre-nup and no kids the difference is small in terms of exit costs. Don’t get me wrong I am NOT saying anyone should get married. I am simply saying they aren’t that different at that point.
I hear you on your definition of Disney. Perhaps what we need is a new term, “Alpha Disney”
By your own admission in an OLTR the following is certain or likely:
– You will get more drama
– It won’t last anyway and you need to plan for your exit
– You will sometimes get less sex…maybe even way less sex from time-to-time
You mitigate this with FBs but can’t even have a MLTR while still in your temporarily sexless OLTR
And last but not least:
– She might get fat
Let me comment on this last one. In your post here you state:
How on Earth would it be acceptable for you to be in an OLTR with a fat woman? Even if you can have sex with FBs (but not MLTRs) because your OLTR is obese aren’t you just friends at that point?
You will get ZERO argument from me that OLTR or just about any other form of relationship is superior to monogamous marriage. But that was never my problem with an OLTR as a goal to begin with.
What I basically do is have a combination of MLTRs (but I don’t have the one day per week restriction that you do so perhaps it is SLIGHTLY closer to an OLTR) and FBs. The result is:
– I only have women in my life that I really enjoy
– I only have women in my life that give me amazing sex all the time, every time (that will never be fat)
– My relationships last from a few months to women I have had in my life sexually and as friends for 5+ years
– I tolerate about close to zero drama as any man can hope for
And if your only response is that I am not pair-bonding and by your estimation have as much as a 10% higher likelihood of being lonely in my old age, please see Alpha Disney definition above. 🙂
I don’t disagree with that. That book is on my reading list too.
But is the goal to be as happy as possible or is the goal to keep a particular woman?
Which tells me that book is profiling polyamorous relationships (MLTRs and similar), not open relationships (OLTR), though again I have not read it.
Speaking very generally, if two people don’t move in with each other and/or don’t have kids, they don’t last any longer than the typical BF/GF relationship, which means 1-3 years. If the two people co-habit, they last much longer (which stands to reason). I have no actual status to give you. The longest one I personally know is 22 years.
Why? What does you getting occasional side-sex have to do with raising kids (or infants)? It has literally nothing to do with it.
Granted, your side-sexual activity is going to go way down when a new baby comes; I’ve certainly seen that, but why must you suddenly commit to absolute sexual monogamy at all times just because you two have kids? That objection makes no sense.
Disney. No you can’t. The stats are very clear on this. You’ll overwhelmingly likely to get divorced way before 18 years. Long-term monogamy does not work.
I did say that in one of the comments, yes. I was assuming that if an OLTR was flat-out refusing to have sex with me, there would be drama and other problems in the relationship, which as I said above, they’re probably would be.
However, I’ve seen scenarios with married couples where the woman was unable to have sex because of health problems, and man got sex on the side with her permission. So something like that would be okay (I guess).
Because you are. I’ve said several times now that I’m giving estimates, not exact numbers. If you (or anyone else) requires exact dates as to when certain women were upgraded or downgraded in my life many years ago, I can’t give provide them. So you’re going to either A) have to trust that what I’m saying is generally accurate or B) assume that I’m just making all this up. The choice is yours.
Moreover, the exact dates of my one OLTR have nothing whatsoever to do with points I made in the article above.
Correct. Though not as much as monogamy.
Correct.
Half right. “Less sex” means less sex from your OLTR, not less sex overall. If I got less sex from my OLTR, I would increase the the sex I was getting from FBs on the side.
The only man in an OLTR who gets “less sex” overall are guys who get lazy and/or stop having women on the side or let that slide. Which sadly, is a lot of men in OLTRs. Human nature I guess.
If it’s a long-term, live-in thing, yeah, she’ll probably gain weight over time. It’s what women living in the West do.
It might be, it might not be. It’s the same as Michael’s question above. If she got fat BUT she was super low drama AND super low jealousy AND I loved her very much AND she let me fuck FBs in our house whenever I wanted AND…etc, etc, then I can envision it working for me.
But if she gets fat and presents ANY OTHER PROBLEM (drama, jelousy, etc), she’s outta there!
In other words, if she wants to get fat it reduces her margin for error with me to near-zero.
To sum up your main point, I’ve never said that OLTR will make a man more long-term consistently happy. I’ve said that the vast majority of human beings, when they’re male and well over age 35, are going to want an OLTR (to pair bond in some way at least) because of basic biological and human needs. To say to men YOU SHOULD NEVER, EVER PAIR BOND!!! is silly advice for the reasons I already explained in detail here.
You willingly admit that drama increases in an OLTR. I have no idea why you make the point that it increases drama less than marriage when that was never my point. I am saying an OLTR is higher in drama than MLTRs and that is why an OLTR is much less desirable to me.
You consistently misstate my position. I have NEVER said that someone shouldn’t pair-bond. What I actually said was:
Additionally, from my point of view, my MLTRs are pair-bonding. I simply don’t agree that I can’t have deep affection for more than one person at at time.
So if I understand correctly you are saying two things:
Then why is finding an OLTR a goal for you if it doesn’t increase happiness?
It sounds like (but I am not certain) you are saying that even though an OLTR won’t increase happiness that because men over 35 will want one anyway (because of your assertion — without evidence however — that pair bonding — with one and only one person — is somehow a basic biological and human need) you might as well tell them how to make the best of a sub-optimal approach? Do I have that right?
I guess another question is why don’t you see MLTRs as pair bonding? My “Alpha Disney” comment was more along the lines of being narrow in your view that if it isn’t a one-to-one relationship (you can’t have more than one OLTR at a time per your definition) it is somehow of lower value.
The main points for everybody to remember:
1. Every relationship ends. You may still live together, especially if married monogamous with children, but the relationship probably ended at some point and now you’re in a difficult spot. Every OLTR ends. Every fling. That doesn’t make any of them a failure. That’s what we need to get over. They can end amicably when it reaches the point where neither party is happy, and that’s a success. Too bad we weren’t taught that since it’s reality based.
2. OLTRs are work. Betas can’t do that. Betas have no chance. Oh, you may get a girl who agrees to an OLTR. But, you’ll be either paying for yours, or getting none, while she can exercise her option whenever the feeling strikes her. That’s if she even agrees to this arrangement with a beta guy, which is unlikely. This is why betas don’t choose that option. They know, and the women know, it’s not something they can demand. They can’t sufficiently attract one woman, let alone a bunch of them. They will find one dominant woman and no way she is accepting his conditions. So you need some alpha game before you start that. It’s a good system BD has here. You start with online game for example, and work on your ability to get FB and MLTR first. You’ll suck at it and probably get rejected a lot, but eventually you’ll make progress and it will be a feedback cycle. The more success you have, the more attractive you’ll feel, and you’ll present that image to more women. Soon enough you’ll feel abundant and an OLTR will be a real possibility.
Dawson, you’re doing that repeat-forever argue-forever thing again. You’re very tiresome. This is my final comment to you on this topic. Ever.
1. When you have deep, romantic feelings and are being deeply romantic with multiple people, that’s not pair bonding.
2. OLTRs are more drama than MLTRs.
3. MLTRs are not “lower value” than OLTRs. MLTRs are the greatest thing in the world.
4. Usually, men over 35 will want an OLTR even though it may make them a little less consistently happy. They consider the 10-15% (or so) reduction in happiness a worthwhile price to pay for the deep pair bonding experience (a strong romantic bond with ONE other person) that MLTRs cannot provide. This is why I recommend OLTRs for most (though not all!) guys over 35.
5. Some men over 35 will avoid OLTRs forever because they adamantly refuse to compromise in any way on their happiness or freedom. This is wonderful and I salute these guys, but this is only going to be a very, very small percentage of men.
6. You are clearly against OLTRs (and/or pair bonding) and it not a misstatement to say that.
7. I would like an OLTR someday, but I may never have one because I hate drama, and since OLTRs are more drama than MLTRs, there you go. Why do I want one then? See item 4.
If you still don’t understand this stuff after my very clear statements above, I can’t help you.
This is a very good topic and would like to see in the forums and bloggers discuss more oltr, type arrangements and live ins, cause, relationship is all different type of skill sets, same with oltr and oltr live in…
I am still disappointed with bd, that he is claiming having an oltr, when it was a high level mltr what he had, but whatever, his point in this post still very good, of course some generalizations, but ok…
About the after 35 age, is just an estimate, but most men that play the game for years, had the rotation for years etc… at some point will want to kind of “put the breaks a little bit”(unless you are a weirdo/minority like pua coaches, or weirdos like me) and focus their energy/efforts on other type missions other than women, unfortunately as discuss in the bd blog 100s of time a mono relationship would be the answer, but since as proven they do not tend to work, the next best option is either cheating (which is was most so call mono couples do and hard to pull off, unless you are a .001% type player) or the more all around option (oltr)…
Most 35 plus guys do not want to be picking up women in a mall/club is just a different life stage (the key word typically me, td, jeffy etc… still go out and pick up, but again coaches or unusual dudes that made a lifetime commitment to be players for whatever reason).
I will say the oltr getting fat, drama etc… is the norm, but it does not have to be, there are ways and methods to avoid that, but that is another subject.(and i get bd is generalizing, cause yes is mostly what happens, look at your exes on facebook as exhibit, make sure you have a puke cup next to you). i am willing to show privately if i could pics of my main when i met her vs now, she has improved her looks, but abnormality.
The main key and were i also will agree with bd, is that is extremely difficult to find oltr/main girl type candidate, i would say minimum of 3-5 years if you are lucky- 10 years, unfortunately that level type commitment to devote to a women is extremely difficult, specially for men with options looking to design a life of freedom, happiness etc..
But when you do pair bond the reward/rush is greater than a rotation of multiple fb/mltr. Is like getting the cake and eating it too, but as anything risk/reward inversely correlated…
my dream is more players getting together without having never ending fights, and arguments to discuss ways to perfect oltr specially live in arrangements….
Unfortunately most players banished as soon as they get oltr, or just plainly become mono
Yeah, but he’s open to them at the same time. Kinda like you BD, but to a much lesser degree.
#4 isn’t really a strong argument, for you, especially. Why can’t MLTRs provide a deep pair bonding experience? It’s not like you’re seeing them all in the same place at the same time. Why does it need be ONE? That seems monogamish in thinking.
Or is it just that ONE person is the definition of “pair bonding”? If that’s the case, then we’ll call it “deep romantic bonding”. Why can’t the top 1-2 MLTRs provide a similarly (or more) powerful level of bonding?
So Dawson, what would you personally recommend:
for guys 35+?
for guys 60+?
And what the heck happened to your blog?
I’m really enjoying this. I can’t wait for the debate.
In my experience, women that say they only do monogamous relationships are the most insecure and boring I have ever met.
Because MLTRs aren’t pair bonding. Do you seriously not understand that? Honestly, I’m utterly amazed that a few of you guys are confused about something this simple.
If your argument is that MLTRs feel like pair bonding while you’re physically with that particular woman, then I agree.
If your argument is that you can 100% love with all of your hart two women exactly as much at the exactly same time, then I completely disagree. I’m sure there are the 2-3% exceptions to the rule out there, but I promise that with the vast majority of men, if you have two or more women in your life you REALLY care for at a SUPER-high level, you’re going to like one of them more than the other one. Also, the fact you really like a 2nd or 3rd women will detract, at least a little bit, from the rush you feel and the sense of security you feel when truly pair-bonded.
Similar? Yes! The same? No!
(Unless you’re in that very are exception “I can 100% fully love multiple women exactly the same” I mentioned above. I’m certainly not in that category and I’d bet real money none of the men commenting here are either.)
@TonyStark
I am a little reluctant to recommend something for others because everyone is different. I think one of the mistakes people make is thinking solutions are one-size fits all.
But I do think objectivity and self-awareness is key so that is where I will focus my comments. Ask yourself honestly what you want from your romantic relationships. Newness? Low drama? Exciting sex whenever you want it? Companionship over an extended period of time where your lives become somewhat integrated? Etc. Etc. Once you have figured that out you can map it against the different relationship types and approaches.
For most 35-60 year olds I think having 2-3 MLTRs and some FBs is optimal. For 60+ (I am not quite 50) I am not as certain. As I approach that age I will do my level best to remain as objective and self aware as I can manage and map my happiness needs against my relationship options.
I do have two guiding principals I am trying to stick to in all my romantic relationships:
1. Only continue to spend time with women who’s company I truly enjoy and that I honesty like as human beings. This even applies to FBs.
2. Always try to leave them better than I found them
I got outed…not even sure how it happened. So I am taking things in a new direction. 🙂
@BD
No need to respond but since folks have asked for clarification:
That is an opinion not a statement of fact and one I don’t share. You place a completely arbitrary measurement that if you don’t “100% love with all of your hart two women exactly as much at the exactly same time” then it isn’t pair-bonding. That is on its face ridiculous.
You are clearly seeking (and advising others to seek) an OLTR as the pinnacle. I cannot fathom how you can maintain this does not mean you are saying that OLTRs are superior to MLTRs.
Again this is just baffling to me. Not because I am too dense to understand and not because I am just trying to take the other side…how the hell does it make sense to say to someone that pair-bonding is worth a 10-15% reduction in happiness? The only reason exclusive (I don’t mean sexually) pair-bonding would make sense is if it made people happier.
This a fundamental difference between you and I. I am not adamantly refusing anything. To be fair I am saying that I have no interest in making ANY decision that reduces my happiness and cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would make decisions that would reduce their happiness by even 1%. If presented with a set of circumstances where an OLTR would be reasonably likely to increase my happiness I would absolutely do it. If a Victoria Secret super model that was worth millions asked me to move in with her in her beach house mansion on the ocean while asking if it was ok if some of her model girlfriends joined us in bed from time-to-time I would OLTR like a motherfucker!
See 5 above. It absolutely is an misstatement. I am against reducing happiness. Since you yourself seem to be conceding that OLTRs reduce happiness it might look that way. But in my far fetched example above I wouldn’t be opposed to it because it would likely increase my happiness at least for a while and I would be totally ok with that. In general, if a woman was richer than me, better looking than me, low drama, cool with others joining us sexually I would have no issue with an OLTR. I have dated a few extremely attractive, wealthy women but zero chance they would have the other qualities listed above in my experience so unless the outlier of outliers of women come into my life I will stick to MLTRs and FBs as they maximize my happiness.
If that isn’t Alpha Disney I don’t know what is.
I have warmed up to the idea of an OLTR which is not a live in arrangement with me. Black Dragon in this post explained things better about OLTR arrangements and convinced me. I still don’t like and don’t want OLTR live in arrangements and certainly not OLTR marriage, but I know other people in particular some men will be fine with this. Others particularly some men won’t be fine with this. There is no one idea fits all. The reason some people would choose to be less happy in some respects by being in an OLTR no live in arrangement, OLTR live in arrangement, OLTR marriage or monagamous marriage is because it satisfies them in some other regard. Human beings are not exactly entirely rational nor do they do what is best for themselves for a lot of reasons. Black Dragon described some of the reasons. I have disagreed with him before, but on this one he is right.
Hey dragon,
I’m a woman who has been obsessively reading your articles for the past 2 hours. Would any of this advice work for women?
I’m 24 and dying to be more sexually adventurous but I keep running into 3 problems.
1.) The guy is great, but he isn’t sexually adventurous and demands monogamy.
2.) The guy is shit, but he is sexually adventurous.
3.) The guy is decent and sexually adventurous, but he doesn’t practice safe sex.
Thus I’ve never had sex with problems 2-3. In order to get sex I agree to monogamous relationships that aren’t fulfilling my needs. While I’m capable of loving and bonding with others, I have never felt an emotional/romantic connection with anyone (so LTR is of no interest to me). I don’t enjoy monogamous relationships, I find them to be stifling and exhausting. Now I always care for my partners deeply and attend to their needs, always faithful (as are they) but I’m never happy or fulfilled in the relationship (while they always are). Not that they have been one sided, they just don’t do it for me.
Two months ago I met a wonderful man and we started having great sex 2 weeks ago. However he brought up the dreaded girlfriend conversation. We do have chemistry but he isn’t sexually adventurous and he believes in monogamy. He said that he’s done the open relationship route 3 times and he’s tired of it. He’s the type of guy that needs an emotional connection in order to have sex. He made it clear that we could still be friends, but FWB would NOT be an option because he’s developed feelings for me. I haven’t given him an answer as of yet. But this keeps happening to me. What am I doing wrong? Why do men keep trying to tie me down?
The guys who are DTF are irresponsible or jack asses that make my vagina shrivel and die out of disgust.
Do I just have to just suck it up and stay in a monogamous relationship with great sex but not the kind of sex I want sex (needless to say not feeling emotionally/romantically attached to the other person while they feel it for me)?
Or do I just have to accept the fact that if I’m going to live a life full of non-committed sexual relationships that I have to accept one or some of my partners will be irresponsible and possibly put my life in danger? “Potentials” always get offended by the STD talk and promise to show their papers, but the papers never come, and the sex doesn’t happen because of it. I get tested regularly and always offer my test results to new sexual partners.
How do your partners react to the STD talk? Do either of you ask for test results before you engage in sex?
Keep reading this blog for the next two weeks or so. I’ve got something that will help you and all the other female readers here.
@fluff
Christ, hearing this kind of shit depresses me. What the fuck are men doing? Maybe HE should be reading this blog.
And yes, there are men who are great, sexually adventurous, and practice safe sex. We do exist.
A big surprise to help you is in the works. You’ve got pretty good timing.
@Tony
It doesn’t bother me that some men prefer or want monogamy, I’m bothered that I keep attracting these men. I’m a supporter of different strokes for different folks. I don’t want to force or coerce anyone into doing something they don’t believe in. However I also don’t want to be forced or coerced into doing something I don’t believe in. The monogamy probably wouldn’t be as painful if they were open minded in the bedroom, but they never are. NEVER, for example the guy I’m seeing now literally told me that kinks and sexual exploration are for people who have unfilled empty lives. He’s happy with his life so he doesn’t need to try different types of sex. It blew me away that he wasn’t even willing to try something new. Also in my past relationships we start out fucking like rabbits but after a few months the sex dies down considerably. From my experience the men I’ve dated just don’t have the libido to match mine. I’m by no means a sex addict, but I have an appetite. It seems like they fake having an HL to trap me.
I know there is a sea of great available, sexually adventurous men out there that have the same beliefs that I do, but I have no fucking idea where they roam. I keep meeting the extremes of the spectrum. I was able to hold onto an FWB relationship for a short period of time that was very sexually fulfilling, but he too wanted a monogamous commitment after sleeping together on and off over a 1 year period.
It also doesn’t bother me that some men are assholes. I’m simply not attracted to the overly macho, arrogant, aggressive, sexist type.
I am highly bothered by the men who don’t take safe sex or their sexual health seriously though. I can’t believe that some people are so careless with their lives and the lives/health of their partners.
I’m really hoping this coming advice will help me out. My sexual frustration is building and my hope is at an all time low. I don’t want monogamy to be my only option.
“LSNFTE – Long Soft Next For Temporary Exclusivity. A common occurrence with Alphas in nonmonogamous relationships where a woman leaves the Alpha, who will not give her monogamy, so she can get a traditional boyfriend or husband who will. The new boyfriend/husband is always an AFC, beta, or Alpha Male 1.0, who eventually either bores her to death, irritates her with too many rules, or cheats on her. The woman then leaves the boyfriend/husband and goes right back to the Alpha, resuming the sexual relationship. LSNFTEs last anywhere from a few weeks to many years.”
Okay, so this is based an Alpha males. Here’s the problem: it is difficult to really take this article as having any validity since there is no scientific evidence of Alpha and Beta Males. There is only somewhat of a societal fantasy for some. This concept is based on the Alphas in groups like apes and such. Now I can agree that there are dominant and submissive behaviors. These behaviors can change based on many things: mood, lack of sleep, physical exercise, hunger, emotions, etc.
Now, again I will ask. This was deleted for a reason that I do not understand…a rule that was most definitely not broken. I do not bring this up to say anything more than it is just informational. In looking into this whole Alpha thing, I read that 70% of business execs are Alpha males. Okay, the #1 career of those fitting the qualifications of psychopaths (this is an actual disorder, not a word of slander which I’m guessing is what Blackdragon might have thought and so deleted my questions and points) are CEOs. Truly, the characteristics I have found listed as a description of the Alpha Male 2.0 truly have a lot of similarity to Hare’s psychopathy checklist. It is truly interesting. I heard an interview of a successful psychopath who stated were it not for the law and avoidance of prison, he would do absolutely whatever he wanted to whomever he wanted. Interesting. Thoughts? I can post the checklist again, but I’m not sure if that’s why I was deleted. I cannot find the crime within the rule.
The unnamed disorder is P S Y C H O P A T H Y. Well see if it gets through since, without it, it is maybe impossible to make sense of my last post. Typing it in a different matter may help it get through…please do not see the spelling as any kind of yelling, disrespect, etc.
Your comment was deleted because you called me a psychopath and then just posted a list of traits, the vast majority of which didn’t apply to me at all, in any way, or in any behaviors I recommend. You’re on very thin ice here. One more problem and you’ll be banned.
Regarding the term Alpha and beta, I use my definitions that I clearly list in the glossary, not the scientific definitions used by scientists studying apes.
“The monogamy probably wouldn’t be as painful if they were open minded in the bedroom, but they never are. NEVER, for example the guy I’m seeing now literally told me that kinks and sexual exploration are for people who have unfilled empty lives.”
The women with boyfriends that I see, always mention this. I wish I had some advice to attract the ones you are looking for. The only advice i know so far is to seek them out. Like on dating sites, find the guys with these qualities and become the woman that is attractive to them. You’ll probably have to make the 1st move – which I know sucks – but its better than hoping the guy you’re looking for will come along.
As for the sexual health thing, blame our Victorian-ass culture. More people would be if the attitude wasnt so shitty.
@Susan
I’m a scientist. I’ve done research; I know how to understand these papers. Yes there are Alpha and betas, and alpha and beta behaviors. Typically it is not referred to as such in scientific literature, especially when referring to humans. Usually it’s referred to as dominant and such.
If living a free life, full of love and happiness, fully rejecting society’s expectation of slavery is being a psychopath, then so be it.
…you can only have one OLTR at a time.
What if you have multiple love boxes?
Hi BD! I need help, I red your book and your blog but I didn’t find the answer to my question.
What are the exact rules you have with your OLTR?
mine for now are:
1) always condoms with FBs
2) no other romantic relationships
do you have others?
It really pains me that you are right BD, nevertheless you’re right. No relationship is forever and we should work on our SP.
Today I opened fb and boom one of our closest couples of swingers divorced and now she’s happily “monogamous” with her new alpha bad boy. They’d been together since they were 13 (that’s right) and 16.
So even OLTRs are temporary, this is what I can contribute. Mine lasted 6 years, then I ended it + several others which were open but not truly pair-bonded.
So ladies and gentlemen fasten your seatbelt and get a prenup which doesn’t mean hoping to crash but to be safe.