71 Comments on “Is Refusing Sex Grounds For A Soft Next?”

1. When I read the title I thought you were talking about the typical married refusal like the guy with the spreadsheet you linked to. I’ve never had that issue, but that would be a hard next to me. That shows she’s no longer sexually interested in me, and I don’t want to be in a sexual relationship with somebody who has to force themselves to have sex with me.

2. …Over a 10 year period with scores of women, it’s happened less times than the fingers on my hand. Women resisting sex with their husbands or boyfriends is an aspect of monogamous relationships. It’s very rare in nonmonogamous ones. In nonmono relationships, women know you can go get it somewhere else if they say no. Therefore, there’s a lot of reasons for a woman not to say no.

   There’s another factor in this scenario you should mention. If a man has done his research and experimented with on his girls, then he should know how to make women crave sex with him. I feel that should also play an important role in negating the odds of her refusal. I remember that you’ve posted a few articles about the importance of making women cum before. Consider providing a link for the readers.

   Conversely, I remember Roosh saying something against this. He said that making women cum makes virtually no difference in his relationships. Well, none of this concerns me. I enjoy making fountains 😉

3. I’ve never had that issue, but that would be a hard next to me. That shows she’s no longer sexually interested in me, and I don’t want to be in a sexual relationship with somebody who has to force themselves to have sex with me.

   Just when in a monogamous relationship, right? A hard next seems like a waste of resources in a non-mono relationship. A downgrade is more appropriate.

4. Soft Nexts Before she’s an FB?

   Great detailed article BD! Definitely enjoyed learning from the detail that you’ve put into this one. I want to expand this topic just a bit more from my own experiences.

   Have you, or any readers, had success soft-nexting a girl to have sex with her the first time?

   Preface: I live in Brazil and don’t date American women (other than ex’s) when I visit US. There are some cultural dating differences, but it’s 80% the same game.

   I have done this 2 or 3 times when I’ve been out with a girl and not had sex after ~3 dates (very unusual for me, but it does happen on occasion). I’ll admit that I didn’t get sex these few times because my game/EFA/logistics weren’t as bulletproof as usual. But a few times in the past 6 years, I have gotten a girl either back to my place or we’re making out at a quiet, dimly-lit bar and I just can’t get past resistance to either getting her back to my place or getting her naked. (again, I couldn’t close these few times because my game was off with the girl

   What has worked for me in all of these instances is once she’s resisted several advances. I’ll say “OK let’s get you home then”. Then I immediately walk her out/drive her home with very few words, let her know “I’ll be busy at ‘work’ the next several days” and I go 3-4 days without contacting her.

   The last time I did this, the girl texted me back after 3 days silence asking me if I was mad at her and what she did wrong. We met up a few days later and had BOMB sex (relieving that tension sure was good for her!).  A separate time, a girl messaged me 2 days after a date apologizing that our date was too “high school” and she wanted to come see my new apartment soon. When she came over, we had sex, went out for dinner, then came back for more sex. Now that’s a good girl!

   Would love to hear feedback on if/how you have done similar.

5. I think your reaction would be most favorable among women who are refusing sex.  I can’t be the only one who wouldn’t ever want to say no to a guy twice. A lot of these pua types want to tell men to be persistent in either picking up women or in more involved relationships as well, and that’s an instant turn off. No, it’s not a shit test. No,  she’s not sizing up your dominance or your ability to take what you want. But I think that partially we can criticize women for not being assertive enough in their nos. They give excuses instead of just telling the truth, and that’s their mistake.

   There are many reasons why a woman might not want to have sex with a guy at a given moment, but she might want to later. She could say, “I’m not feeling well right now, about how I give you a nice wake up call in the morning?” I think that might be reassuring to him when there’s that promise for sex at a later time.

    

6. @Pyro Nagus

   Again, I’ve never experienced this so I’m talking hypothetically, but I’m not saying if she tries to use sex as a weapon, but if she treats sex as a chore. It doesn’t matter if it’s monogamous or not, if she’s not into it then I’m not into it, so what’s the point?

7. @Tony

   Well, as BD said, that’s nexable behavior (and downgrade if you find it appropriate). I’m just saying a HARD next (As in permanently terminating the relationship) is a waste of resources (That you’ve put time and effort into in order to acquire).

   If you’ve got more women in your life than you can need, then I’d understand somewhat. Either way, your life, your rules.

8. When I read the title I thought you were talking about the typical married refusal like the guy with the spreadsheet you linked to.

   You can’t soft next someone you live with, so no.

   I’ve never had that issue, but that would be a hard next to me.

   I would not hard next the first time it happens. If it happened a few times in a row, then maybe.

   That shows she’s no longer sexually interested in me, and I don’t want to be in a sexual relationship with somebody who has to force themselves to have sex with me.

   Agree 100%!

   There’s another factor in this scenario you should mention. If a man has done his research and experimented with on his girls, then he should know how to make women crave sex with him. I feel that should also play an important role in negating the odds of her refusal.

   Reducing the odds of a woman saying no in the first place is a different topic, but yes, I agree.

   I remember Roosh saying something against this. He said that making women cum makes virtually no difference in his relationships.

   Hmm…what did I just say last week? I’m pretty sure I said you shouldn’t take relationship advice from players.

   Have you, or any readers, had success soft-nexting a girl to have sex with her the first time?

   You cannot soft next a woman until you’ve had sex with her at least twice. Soft nexting is a relationship technique, not a dating/pickup/seduction technique. Trying to “soft next” a woman you’ve never had sex with will usually get you nowhere.

   If it worked for you one time with one woman, that’s great, but consider yourself lucky. It is not a technique that will provide reliable results.

   A lot of these pua types want to tell men to be persistent in either picking up women or in more involved relationships as well, and that’s an instant turn off. No, it’s not a shit test. No,  she’s not sizing up your dominance or your ability to take what you want.

   Well, again, that goes back to using a soft next is a pickup technique (which is a no-no) vs. using it with a woman you’ve been having sex with for quite a while and have built up some investment with. PUAs tend to mix this up all the time, yes.

   I think that partially we can criticize women for not being assertive enough in their nos. They give excuses instead of just telling the truth, and that’s their mistake.

   Correct, and it’s something that has always irritated me about women, but I had to accept a long time ago that women are like this and just roll with it. You can virtually never expect a woman to give you the real reason she’s upset about something or refusing something within the first 20 seconds. You either have to soft next, or have a discussion where you pull it out of her, like pulling teeth, which may take 20 minutes or more. Either is hugely irritating. But again, that’s how women are.

   There are many reasons why a woman might not want to have sex with a guy at a given moment, but she might want to later. She could say, “I’m not feeling well right now, about how I give you a nice wake up call in the morning?” I think that might be reassuring to him when there’s that promise for sex at a later time.

   That would work fine in a live-in non-monogamous relationship. But if you’re not living together, or if you’re living together and monogamous, that isn’t going to work (unless the guy has a really low sex drive, but guys under 60 with low sex drives are rare).

9. http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/bf/bf02e9220526a400cb3b4c21a7064b8cdb9a1d7ac12ee38e9e94ffc758cde093.jpg  (NSFW)

   That just about sums it up.

10. BD, you have no idea how perfect the timing of your post is. Maybe there is something in the air? I dealt with this in just the past few days with my OLTR. I have a very high drive and our normal is daily. Two nights ago, out of the blue, she rolls over, wraps the blankets tightly around her and says, “I’m tired”. She then proceeds to try and cuddle and fall asleep. After asking a couple times and being rebuffed, I said that is fine but I’m going to head downstairs to watch TV. I don’t do sexless cuddling. I was on the brink of my previous Alpha 1.0 behavior but I remembered your advice and kept myself in check. I calmly left and ten minutes later, my phone buzzes. It is a text from her saying she now also can’t sleep, which was her cue. I went upstairs and she was now happy to oblige. Yesterday we talked and she explained that she was under terrible pressure at work and a couple other things. None of it directed at me. She cried, I was supportive. I explained that I had been in a marriage with similar sexual issues and I would never do it again. Then, we went upstairs and shook the walls. Wow. If I had caved the previous night, agreed to cuddle and accept my fate, I guarantee it would be the start of a very bad pattern. Girlfriend is upset, therefore boyfriend gets none. No thank you. Instead, I politely held my ground and she apologized the next day and rocked my world.

    In retrospect, what you advise isn’t really a system. It’s simply emotional and sexual maturity and mutual respect. No doubt, it works.

11. For me, this is very simple. Does she see sex as her “giving” or “receiving?” Does she describe sex (when she talks about it) in the language of asexual generosity or heterosexual selfishness?

    Women who use sex as a weapon or try to blackmail men with it invariably see themselves as non-sexual givers of sex. When a woman says to a man, “You keep making me feel bad that I can never give you enough sex,” the man should respond with, “I don’t want you to give me any sex whatsoever. I want you to receive the sex I give you. If you see yourself as a good girlfriend because you give me lots of sex, we have a serious problem.”

    Obviously, I want a woman to have sex with me for her sake, not for my sake. It has to be because she wants it, not because I dutifully did the dishes.

    But I take this even further: A woman showing even the slightest tendency of giving sex instead of receiving instantly makes me want to hard next her because such women just don’t turn me on. And, in that sense, it wouldn’t matter to me if we’d be monogamous (if I still believed in that) or polyamorous. If a woman says to me – “you better talk to me, or no sex for a month” – that’s a hard next even if we’re open and I have 5 fuck buddies I can call!

    Why? Because if a woman can go without sex for a month without going crazy or ripping her own hair out, she’s not the type of woman I can ever hope to be turned on by! If we’re open, you might say that she’ll fuck other guys for that month, but she’s still looking at sex with me as a generous giver instead of an equal receiver, which smacks of low sex drive! Well, a low sex drive woman merits an instant hard next from me, not for refusing sex with me, but for being a low sex drive woman, which is not forgivable in my world. 

    And wife sex? Ha! I’m even stricter on this than you, BD. If a woman refuses sex with you, but then changes her mind when you threaten to leave, you’re cool with it, as long as it’s real sex. Well, not me. If a woman is so blatantly unenthusiastic about sex that I have to threaten to leave in order for her to say yes, that’s already a bridge too far with me. Her level of reluctance is unacceptable and I’m not sure I can keep seeing a woman with such a low desire for sex.

    But maybe I’m an extremist in this department. My women must love sex as much, or more, than me! Otherwise, I’ll hard next, not even because I’m mad at them or because they’re refusing sex (they may not even be refusing), but because I just can’t get turned on by women who don’t want it as much as me. It’s just how I am.

    Thank god for the poly community. I feel sorry for these mainstreamers.

12. If a woman refuses sex with you, but then changes her mind when you threaten to leave, you’re cool with it, as long as it’s real sex.

    Yep!

    Well, not me.

    Haha. Yeah, a lot of you guys are into the instant hard next as soon as she resists sex one time. I’m not that extreme and never have been. As I said, a woman has every right to say no to me whenever she wants, for whatever reason she wants, even if I disagree with the reason (which, if the reason is non-medical, I’m sure I will).

    Along the lines of what I was saying to Ash, men and women are very different about this. If she has a bad day at work or is upset with me, and suddenly doesn’t want to have sex with me, it doesn’t make any sense to my masculine logical man-brain at all (“You’re pissed? Perfect! Lay down and I’ll make you cum! That will brighten your day!”) But, it will make perfect sense to her emotional girly girl-brain (“I can’t have sex when I’m mad at you! That’s crazy!!!”) The both of you could argue about it, but it will just be a waste of time, since you’re both right in the context of inside your respective and very different man/woman brains.

    I don’t want to hard next a woman just because her brain is structured differently than mine. (Soft next, maybe, hard next, no.) That’s too much and doesn’t seem fair to me.

    Things only change when her one-time no becomes a pattern of behavior, where she’s saying no all the damn time, or whenever she gets upset about any little thing, which happens all the time (since most women are always somewhat upset about something). Then yeah, she’s clearly dating the wrong man at that point (she needs to go be with a beta male who will put up with that nonsexual behavior and frame) and a hard next is in order.

13. Important detail: A next is not a punishment. It’s a communication tool. More specifically, you are communicating:

    – The type of man you are (e.g. I have a high sex drive, I don’t do “wife sex”, etc.).
    – That you are congruent.

    If a woman doesn’t want to have sex due to medical/logistical reasons, there’s no reason for any drama to result from that. Spend a bit of time with her, then leave to go have sex with someone else. While technically it is a next, in reality you are simply being congruent with who you are.

    Similarly, if a woman is refusing sex because she’s genuinely not attracted to you or wants to use sex as a power device, then congruency demands that you walk away from it.

    The next time you find yourself wondering “Is X a next-able offense?”, flip it around instead; think about what YOU want, and do what it takes to get it. The women who like you will usually like you more for it, and the women who are trying to power play you will quickly get the hint that it’s not going to work.

14. Hmm…what did I just say last week? I’m pretty sure I said you shouldn’t take relationship advice from players.

    Don’t worry, I won’t disobey you ever again, my overlord. I wrongly thought that it’s important to keep an open mind and consider other people’s findings, even if you disagree with them. Bah, perish the thought!

    Lol, you’re so sassy and quick to jump the gun. Did you honestly think I agree with Roosh or is does this have something to do with your personality? I’m an INTJ too but your J is higher than mine.

15. Important detail: A next is not a punishment. It’s a communication tool. More specifically, you are communicating:

    – The type of man you are (e.g. I have a high sex drive, I don’t do “wife sex”, etc.).
    – That you are congruent.

    Correct. A soft next is not a punishment. It’s an educational tool. You’re teaching her who you are, and who you are not.

    Lol, you’re so sassy and quick to jump the gun. Did you honestly think I agree with Roosh or is does this have something to do with your personality?

    Haha! Ah, fret not my child, you’re communicating to me, but I’m communicating with hundreds of thousands of other men who read this blog, most of whom read at a ninth grade level. I know you don’t agree with Roosh, but there are thousands of other readers (or “scanners”) who won’t know that unless I spell it out.

    I don’t like it any more than you do, but when you’ve been blogging as long as I have, you learn this stuff the hard way.

    And fuck yeah, my J is bigger than your J. 🙂

16. The next time you find yourself wondering “Is X a next-able offense?”, flip it around instead; think about what YOU want, and do what it takes to get it. The women who like you will usually like you more for it, and the women who are trying to power play you will quickly get the hint that it’s not going to work.

    Beautifully said!

    Haha! Ah, fret not my child, you’re communicating to me, but I’m communicating with hundreds of thousands of other men who read this blog, most of whom read at a ninth grade level. I know you don’t agree with Roosh, but there are thousands of other readers (or “scanners”) who won’t know that unless I spell it out.

    I understand. Feel free to be confrontational and sassy with me in the future. I’ll just assume you’re secretly gushing over my display of magnificent intelligence. You just rebuff to avoid being seen as ‘too easy’.

17. I can safely say that the last time I was refused sex by woman I was involved with was 19 years ago. Not coincidentally, I only have relations with women under 26 years old. With young women, it’s ALWAYS “Go Time”.

18. Why? Because if a woman can go without sex for a month without going crazy or ripping her own hair out, she’s not the type of woman I can ever hope to be turned on by! If we’re open, you might say that she’ll fuck other guys for that month, but she’s still looking at sex with me as a generous giver instead of an equal receiver, which smacks of low sex drive! Well, a low sex drive woman merits an instant hard next from me, not for refusing sex with me, but for being a low sex drive woman, which is not forgivable in my world. 

    Generally speaking this isn’t how low sex drive women work. There’s a big difference between a girl who is low sex drive and one who sees sex as transactional (something she ‘gives’), they’re not mutually exclusive.

    I’m guessing many men here who comment have never actually been in a long-term (well over 2 years), live in, OLTR, because the theory seems good but in practice, it’s actually different. All this demanding a high sex drive out of the women you’re in relationships with is fine, short term, but longer term you’re going to have problems, allow me to explain.

    In a long term live in OLTR you’re much better off with a low sex drive woman. The reason is, counter-intuitively, a low sex drive woman is LESS LIKELY to turn down sex when things get monotonous sexually in the relationship. The reason is that a healthy but low sex drive woman doesn’t dislike sex at all, she loves it too, but the constant drive to have it just isn’t there.

    What this means is that she’s used to not wanting sex until she’s turned on by some external factor, ie. after alot of foreplay or romantic time together, reading a romance novel or watching a romantic movie etc. to get her in the mood. So after years of being with the same guy, nothing really changes, she only rarely gets horny without those external factors anyway, so she knows that, while she might not feel like sex at that very moment, after the foreplay starts she’ll be really into it and enjoy herself.

    Higher sex drive women come from a different point of reference. They’re used to being horny and actively wanting/seeking sex. So when that ‘horniness’ for you begins to wane (and in time it always will), she’s not used to having to ‘work’ to feel like having sex with you (even though she’d probably end up enjoying it if she did), she’s more likely to just find some other guy who will make her feel like having sex right away because he’s new, hot and exciting etc. and rebuff the advances of the guy who no longer makes her horny simply by his presence.

19. There’s a big difference between a girl who is low sex drive and one who sees sex as transactional

    Correct. I’ve run into women who were transactional types but still very horny, high sex drive, often even promiscuous (as in having sex without being paid in any way).

    I’m guessing many men here who comment have never actually been in a long-term (well over 2 years), live in, OLTR

    Correct. This is always a problem when discussing these topics on blogs and forums and I run into this all the time. What works or doesn’t work when dating and not living together often cannot work when when living together for longer than 3 years, and vice versa. Two different models. Guys who’ve never lived with a woman for longer than 3 years don’t understand this.

    That’s why I was very careful to split out OLTR from live-in OLTR in the above article. Two different models, two different techniques.

    In a long term live in OLTR you’re much better off with a low sex drive woman.

    I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I more or less agree with your point behind it. I would change that statement to “could be better” instead of “much better.”

    What this means is that she’s used to not wanting sex until she’s turned on by some external factor, ie. after alot of foreplay or romantic time together, reading a romance novel or watching a romantic movie etc. to get her in the mood.

    This is where we diverge. Most high sex drive men don’t like the fact it takes all that work and time just to have sex with his low sex drive wife or girlfriend. Many times, as a man, you’ll want to take that time and make that connection and be romantic, and that’s wonderful, but many other times you’ll just want to throw her down on the couch and fuck. If she resists this because she needs a few hours to get “warmed up,” (as the marriage counselors used to say about wives in the 90s) that’s a very unpleasant experience for her and him.

    But, back to my main point, if you are living together and it’s an OLTR where you’re allowed to get laid on the side whenever you feel like, then this problem is okay. You just plan on not having sex with your low sex drive OLTR unless you have the time and inclination to do all that romantic stuff first, and when you don’t want that stuff, or don’t have that kind of time, you get laid on the side. Problem solved.

    But! If you’re in an MLTR or OLTR where you’re not living together, if she is regularly resisting sex because sometimes you can’t or won’t wine and dine her first, this is a very serious problem, and the relationship won’t last long enough to move in together in the first place. You’ll eventually next her ass (and should).

    And of course, if you’re in a monogamous relationship, this is a horrible and unworkable problem, and you’ll just end up cheating,  breaking up, or getting divorced. (Yet another reason to avoid monogamy.)

20. Great article. It actually opened some points for us guys who haven’t had a chance to be in the poly game for a decade.. yet.
    I was wondering with you other poly guys:

    Do you often have the problem that a girl will understand your poly EFA (i.e. she keeps mentioning that it is good to have you as an FB or “something in-between fb and a relationship”), but that she will keep trying to see you? I have a 20 year-old who I’ve been seeing for about a year (with a LTSNFTE in-between) that keeps inviting me out to do stuff or trying to invite herself over every day. I keep blowing her off other than one day a week and try to keep communication to a minimum, as I don’t want to fuck up my frame (or be an asshole by being incongruent), but she really keeps trying. Now, she’s a killer in bed, so I’m not going to toss her out of rotation.

    I can’t be the only one having to deal with crap like this

21. you said that u have sex 3 times per week. and that makes u happy.

    so how do u get happy when lets say u soft nexted a woman for not having sex – so that week u only had sex twice. is that makes u happy?

    how do u handle it fast that u even the equation for 3 times per week?

22. Do you often have the problem that a girl will understand your poly EFA (i.e. she keeps mentioning that it is good to have you as an FB or “something in-between fb and a relationship”), but that she will keep trying to see you?

    Yep. That’s common. If you’re honest, and your Alpha frame and EFA is strong, women will keep seeing you even if you’re playing around.

    keeps inviting me out to do stuff or trying to invite herself over every day

    1. Never see an FB or MLTR more than once a week, regardless of how often they ask.

    2. A FB or MLTR texting you every day is bad. You don’t want to be communicating with her that often. Start ignoring (not responding to) her texts every other day, then start doing it two out of every three days. She’ll soon get the message. Her texting you a few times a week is fine, but not every day.

    you said that u have sex 3 times per week. and that makes u happy.

    Yep.

    so how do u get happy when lets say u soft nexted a woman for not having sex – so that week u only had sex twice.

    I would fuck someone else, and still get my three (assuming I wanted three that week).

    You’re still stuck in the monogamy mindset. If Girl A says no, I have sex with Girl B and/or Girl C. And/or Girl D if I have one (and shit, a Girl E or F if I have one). No one woman is the only source for sex, even if I have two women. (I can get three women, or four, etc.)

    how do u handle it fast that u even the equation for 3 times per week?

    I don’t understand the question. Three times a week is an average, but there are some weeks I have sex twice. That’s okay. I don’t suddenly get depressed if I “only” have sex twice in a particular week, particularly if I’m very busy with work (which I have been for about two years now). I have a high sex drive, but I’m not that addicted.

23. I can’t be the only one having to deal with crap like this

    Indeed, younger-woman-who-needs-attention-every-day-and-is-also-horny-as-fuck seems to be a thing. I was LSNFTEd by one a few months ago as well (but she came back…).

    Limiting contact and maintaining frame is smart. It’s practically guaranteed that she’s talking to a bunch of other guys as well, so let them be the attention-givers.

    Out of curiosity, does she bear any resemblance to this? 😀

24. “Women resisting sex with their husbands or boyfriends is an aspect of monogamous relationships”

    Absolutely. ALL women will eventually attempt to leverage it for more commitment and to caress her ego with a power trip. They know that their vagina is a commodity and use it as such, but will deny it til the day they die.

    NEVER settle for this, ever. I don’t care what bullshit reason she comes up with. “I’m tired”, “I have a headache”, “is sex all you think about?!?”, blah blah blah. The reason she gives you will never be the truth. She either isn’t attracted to you in that moment or is using it as a weapon. Some guys will settle for this and the relationship ends up [d]evolving into a deadbedroom or duty sex arrangement.

    If you have to beg for sex, even if she’s intentionally using it as a weapon, it only reinforces her behavior. In her mind, history is re-written. She now believes she refused you sex initially because you were beta, not because she was making a power move. Do not engage. The only way to win is not to play. Activate operation: dread game.

    When you commence dread game, she’s gonna ask “you’ve been acting strange lately, what’s wrong?”

    Translation: “you haven’t been giving me attention. Why aren’t you giving me attention?”

    She knows damn well why this occurred. She’s just playing games. Any given justification of your actions = beta. Women don’t with communicate words, they communicate with ACTIONS. That’s how the game is played. In addition, you cannot give into her demands. Everything must be framed such that it was YOUR decision to give her attention. Any capitulation to her demands will NEVER result in sex. You cannot negotiate desire.

    I wrote an article on this very subject…

    On one occasion prior to swallowing the red pill, I had duty-sex. For no apparent reason, the girl went from accepting my advances with eagerness, to rejecting them because she was, “not in the mood” or “let’s just cuddle”. But this time, she reluctantly accepted. Throughout the process her movement was frigid and her kissing was lazy. Despite the lack of enthusiasm, I didn’t let this deter me. I continued the foreplay thinking a good ol’ dicking would solve the problem. Hint: it didn’t.

    It was awful.

    She had the Sahara Snatch, laying back like a starfish and looked uncomfortable like she just wanted it over with. It was so sad and felt so pathetic that I just ended it. Couldn’t finish even if I wanted to because it was a such a libido kill.

    Never again.

    I can’t believe men do that for years and actually finish the deed. If you go through with this on a regular basis, you’re a fucking loser.

    Full Post: If You Settle for a Deadbedroom or Duty Sex, You’re a Loser

25. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I more or less agree with your point behind it. I would change that statement to “could be better” instead of “much better.”

    Yes, you’re right. It was bad wording on my part. ‘Better’ is subjective.

    This is where we diverge. Most high sex drive men don’t like the fact it takes all that work and time just to have sex with his low sex drive wife or girlfriend. Many times, as a man, you’ll want to take that time and make that connection and be romantic, and that’s wonderful, but many other times you’ll just want to throw her down on the couch and fuck.

    Well yeah, it’s give and take isn’t it and in any long term relationship there’s going to have to be compromises by both parties. Sometimes she’ll let you just slap on some lube and go to town but might not be all that excited about it, in these instances she’s getting her enjoyment out of your enjoyment.

    Other times you’re going to have to do what she wants, romance, foreplay etc. and make it a great experience for her and that might not be all that exciting for you, but hopefully you’re at least happy to be making her happy. Fair is fair.

    Problems will arise if you always want it your way or she always wants it her way, but that’s the same with anything.

    In my experience though, it’s alot easier to reach the middle ground and come to a compromise with a low sex drive woman longer term than a high sex drive one. High sex drive women want what they want, and if they don’t get it (or get bored of you and they tend to do so more quickly) there’s a queue of other guys waiting to give it to them.

26. If do u maintain attraction in monogamous marriage after 3+ years

    there isnt a chance for 3 times sex with yor wife?

27. If do u maintain attraction in monogamous marriage after 3+ years
    there isnt a chance for 3 times sex with yor wife?

    That’s a big if, and even if you do and she never cheats, are you going to be entirely happy with sex 3 times a week with the same woman for the rest of your life without ever straying and cheating even once, until the day you or her die?

    That’s a question you can’t really answer for sure unless you’ve been in a monogamous relationship for several years and see how you feel about it.

    And will she never stray and cheat either in that time? Because as soon as you or she does even once, it’s no longer monogamous, and if you stay together in your ‘monogamous’ marriage, the monogamy ‘clock’ resets and starts from day one again.

    Also:

    https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2012/12/09/entire-monogamy-debate-summarized/

28. well what if I will merry a religious woman who fear fornication + I will be alpha?

    is that a perfect combination?

29. Didn’t spot the troll the first time. Silly me.

30. BD, I’m curious as to your thoughts on soft nexting when you don’t have another relationship to fall back on in that moment. The reasons for why this can happen can vary — not enough relationships in place at that particular time, or you did but had some bad luck and needed to soft next several people in quick succession (leaving you without many/any options). You get the idea, shit happens sometimes.

    It seems to me that you stress having backups in place for soft nexting to be effective, and while that’s obviously the preferable situation to be in, it makes me wonder if it’s ultimately necessary. IMO, the core of the philosophy seems much more about living by certain principles and not compromising on them no matter what the situation. Not tolerating drama, not allowing sex to be used as a weapon, not settling for “wife sex”…does it all really depend on external factors like whether or not you have a FB on hand at that time? Does the power really lie in having a backup? Or is the power in being unhesitant to soft next and find what you want elsewhere? A little bit of both?

31. It seems to me that you stress having backups in place for soft nexting to be effective, and while that’s obviously the preferable situation to be in, it makes me wonder if it’s ultimately necessary.

    @James

    I’m not sure how you drew that conclusion. No, he never even implied that. Obviously, by soft nexing her, you make her hamster go nuts. You’re the man that didn’t deal with her BS for the promise of future sex.

    She will wonder whether you’re busy with your work (Mission) or that you have options. I’ll admit the latter is more beneficial to you (It’s even better if she doesn’t know which is the case) but ultimately it doesn’t matter. You’ve mysteriously left and you’ve implied that you have higher priorities in life than her. If there’s no sex then she’s wasting your time. So she doesn’t get to place you under her thumb. To have you around, she needs to do your bidding.

    That’s her perceived image of you. It doesn’t matter if it’s not actually true. As long as your mask doesn’t slip, she will never be the wiser. However, If you keep that up, scarcity mindset will kick in. You’ll make a mistake. Then the mask will slip.

    The whole point of internalizing this perceived frame is that everything will come naturally to you so you never have to worry about keeping up the ‘act’ around her (plus a whole slew of other obvious benefits). Here’s what BD actually stresses in his blog. To find a Mission in life that has nothing to do with women. You must find an internal source of power that makes your life awesome regardless of women. That power comes with pursuing your Mission.

    https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2014/02/02/4-essential-alpha-male-traits-that-will-make-your-life-awesome/

32. @Pyro Nagasa

    I admit that this was merely my impression, as BD often emphasizes never having less than 2 relationships at any given time (and how his explanation for nexting is often on the lines of “then I’ll leave and have sex right now with some who wants to”). But I digress, because it doesn’t seem like that is his stance after reading that entry.

    I also see what your saying about getting her hamster to go nuts, but I didn’t mean nexting as merely a mindfuck. What I meant was a genuine buy-in into the philosophy on a personal level, that X Y and Z are things I need, and if she cannot provide them, then there is no point in investing my time and energy into that relationship. Even if I don’t have a back up.

    If my only reason for nexting was to manipulate her, I feel like that borders on outcome dependence in the sense that, on some level, you’re invested in the outcome of her reaction to being soft nexted. BUT, if you nexted her for your own personal reasons, because you’ve chosen to do what’s best for you and will no longer compromise your needs to “keep” someone, then the only outcome you’re dependent on is staying true to yourself. Whether she changes her tune or doesn’t is irrelevant at that point…by nexting her, you’ve done right by you and that’s something you can hang your hat on.

33. But I digress, because it doesn’t seem like that is his stance after reading that entry.

    Oh, it is. Perhaps I made a mistake when I tried to fit BD’s opinion in my narrative. He calls that concept De facto monogamy. It’s when you’re exclusively fucking her, basically. Which is bad.

    https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/02/25/de-facto-monogamy/

    Here’s my opinion. If you manage to make her think you have higher priorities than her. Then congratulations! You have her where you want her. But you will slip up eventually. In the back of your mind you start worrying about losing her. That’s not where YOU want to be. You start developing scarcity mentality, you start being outcome dependent (as you pointed out).

    Outcome independence is about knowing what you really want (your end goal IE: Sex with hot girls) and staying on the path that leads to it. It doesn’t matter to you if you fail to nail a specific hot girl because you know you will find another hot girl to sleep with, sooner or later, one way or the other.

    Apologies for the confusion. But I think even BD will agree on the fact that having options is less important than having a Mission in life. That’s what I meant.

34. Didn’t spot the troll the first time. Silly me.

    I don’t think he’s a troll. I think he’s lazy.

    Bs, stop asking these stupid questions that I’ve already answered all over my blog. Go through the archive and do some reading. Then think and read before you ask.

    BD, I’m curious as to your thoughts on soft nexting when you don’t have another relationship to fall back on in that moment.

    I already gave you all my thoughts on that in the above article and here. If you choose to be lazy, that’s your choice, but laziness always causes massive problems for you down the road. Always.

    It seems to me that you stress having backups in place for soft nexting to be effective,

    No. That isn’t the only reason to have backups in place. They also maintain your frame, non-neediness, happiness, masculinity, balls, and peace of mind.

    Not tolerating drama, not allowing sex to be used as a weapon, not settling for “wife sex”…does it all really depend on external factors like whether or not you have a FB on hand at that time?

    All? No. But about 70-80%.

    You’re basically arguing for monogamy. Explain to me what kind of leverage you have on a GF/wife who is adamantly refusing to have sex with you when you’re monogamous and can’t fuck anyone else because she’s the only one you’ve got?

    Or is the power in being unhesitant to soft next and find what you want elsewhere?

    No, because if she’s your only source of sex and/or feminine energy, you won’t be unheistant to next her. You’ll put up with her crap much more than a man like me would. You see this happen all over the place, including with monogamous Alphas in the manosphere / PUA.

35. To continue the soft next train: some of it depends on your sex drive. I’m ok with sex twice a week, prefer around once, and I don’t start thinking about dropping my standards until I’ve gone 2+ weeks without sex. 3x/week is not something I can keep up long term.

    For me, while I tolerate a bit more drama than BD, not talking to a chick for a week is easy, even if she’s the only one I’m seeing. (I don’t typically talk to chicks I’m seeing more than once a week anyway, but that’s a different thing) Remember to filter what BD is saying through the lens of someone with a higher than normal sex drive. (Not to say I’m normal, I’m lower than normal)

36. @BD,

    Perhaps additional clarification is in order. I wasn’t suggesting that your stance is “the only reason to have other relationships is for nexting” but rather was wondering if other relationships were necessary to next someone effectively. I believe your 70%-80% comment answered that question.

    To be clear, I’m certainly not arguing for monogamy. IMO, monogamy sustains itself on emotional shortcomings that most would otherwise consider toxic (insecurity, jealousy, ego, mistrust, etc). Anything rooted issues like that can’t be good for a relationship or those involved, hence why I’m polyamorous.

    As far as the issue of leverage goes (when you don’t have back up relationships), that question implies that you are trying to change someone’s mind. I don’t have any interest in changing someone’s mind for them, whether I have leverage or not. All I’d be concerned about is setting the right expectations for what I need and am willing to offer, and then ensuring those expectations are upheld. Discontinuing a relationship for not meeting those expectations, be it temporarily or permanently, is something that preserves your standards and autonomy. If doing that prompts her to change their mind, great. If not, then it was for the best.

    The leverage, if any, is you. You’ll remove yourself from their life if your not getting what you need, and that can be done regardless of if your relationship status is mono or poly (granted, it’d take more discipline to do it in a monogamous relationship).

    Now, if someone lacks the self-control required to hold their partner to the same standards based on whether they do our do not have backup relationships (which is probably most people) then point taken. I’d see that as an opprotunity to find out why it matters, and see if I can address whatever shortcomings are impacting my life (instead of just trying to work around them).

37. Remember to filter what BD is saying through the lens of someone with a higher than normal sex drive. (Not to say I’m normal, I’m lower than normal)

    Yep. Everyone is going to have a different level of sex drive and a different level of drama tolerance. If you have a lower sex drive and/or a higher drama tolerance, you can bend the rules a little bit provided you never complain about your drama or lack of sex.

    Guys on the opposite side of the spectrum from me, with guys with very low sex drives and who enjoy girl drama, might as well just get monogamous. They won’t get laid very much, and they’ll have tons of drama, but they won’t care. 🙂 I’m glad I’m not in that boat.

    hence why I’m polyamorous

    You’re not polyamorous if you’re not regularly having sex with at least two women.

    If you’re not, then you’re monogamous.

    If you are and plan to always be, then I’m not sure why you’re arguing against it.

    As far as the issue of leverage goes (when you don’t have back up relationships), that question implies that you are trying to change someone’s mind.

    No it doesn’t, and that’s the part you’re not understanding. Having the leverage means you’ll have the emotional ability to soft next (or hard next!) a woman who is giving you drama (or not giving you sex) because you’ll have another option that’s just a text away. If this 2nd option isn’t available to you, you’ll be MUCH, MUCH LESS likely to have the balls to tell your one woman to temporarily go take a hike if/when it’s needed.

    You’ll remove yourself from their life if your not getting what you need, and that can be done regardless of if your relationship status is mono or poly

    Wrong. You won’t. Not in the real world. (Unless you are a highly rare and unusual exception to the rule that I’ve never seen, since I’ve never seen a monogamous man (de facto or otherwise) actually soft next his lady.)

    You’re talking about theory. I’m talking about what men actually do in the real world when they have only one woman on their radar screen.

38. you can bend the rules a little bit provided you never complain about your drama or lack of sex.

    I do bend the “no sleeping over for FBs” rule. I enjoy sleeping with a chick I’m seeing even if she’s just a FB. And once I’ve been seeing a chick for a year+ with sex every time I bend the “no seeing her without sex” rule slightly — still the majority of the time, but there’ll be an odd night where I’m feeling off/tired but don’t mind(or want) the company so I’ll invite her over and warn her that I’m not feeling up to sex beforehand. I’m sure that leads to more drama than otherwise, but it’s nothing that hits “I can’t deal with it”…if it did I’d  hard next her. And just because I’m not feeling like sex doesn’t mean it never happens…she can always come over to masturbate if she wants to. (also, it works the other way as well; sometimes I’ll tell the chick to find someone else to cuddle with, sometimes I’ll invite her over despite and usually end up having sex with her)

    Guys on the opposite side of the spectrum from me, with guys with very low sex drives and who enjoy girl drama, might as well just get monogamous. They won’t get laid very much, and they’ll have tons of drama, but they won’t care.  I’m glad I’m not in that boat.

    I’m with you on drama; I don’t enjoy it, but I can tolerate a bit more of it than you can. I’d never tolerate someone who was constantly throwing drama at me, however. I am pretty much on the opposite end of you for sex drive 😉 (like, I can and have gone 6+ months without sex and without caring about it because I’m too busy with other things) Oddly(sadly?) enough, even though I’m pretty low sex drive to begin with, I’ve probably had sex with more chicks than most of the guys I know.

39. @BD,

    Well I suppose we are different in certain ways, which is to be expected. The truth is that polyamory really has nothing to do with sex (though sex is admittedly a common symptom).

    And the things I’ve talked about are not theory for those who practice it. You might be surprised what people are capable of when they do the emotional work. Like you said, laziness causes all sorts of problems.

    Be well and keep up the good work.

40. Wrong. You won’t. Not in the real world. (Unless you are a highly rare and unusual exception to the rule that I’ve never seen, since I’ve never seen a monogamous man (de facto or otherwise) actually soft next his lady.)

    I do that. I decided a long time ago that it is better to be alone than in bad company.

    It’s not even a difficult thing. A woman has to make my life better than it was to be in it. If she makes it worse, she’s out. Because I’m not self-destructive.

41. If women are having “wife sex” with you, its because you aren’t turning them on.  It seems kind of bizarre to expect anyone to negotiate what type of sex they will be having with you before doing it.  You can’t expect women to go from angry/turned off, to turned on and desiring sex with you, without making attempts to get her in the mood.

42. @Lovergirl: per the article,

    She knows I’m a horny horndog and she knows sex is always coming if she’s going to spend time with me. […] If she didn’t want to have sex with me, she should have stayed home, or even better, dumped me and dated another man with a lower sex drive

    So within context, what’s really happening is that a woman who knows damn well he’ll be expecting sex goes on a date with him and then refuses sex. She should have informed him beforehand that sex is “probably not happening”. Not doing it basically means this: “Yep, I know you were expecting sex but this time you’ll give me your presence and attention while being horny and frustrated” is a total bitch move, worthy of a next. It has nothing to do with him wanting her to be a sex robot uninfluenced by mood – not wanting sex for mood reasons is something men too can relate to.
    Also:

    If an OLTR resists sex, you need to be a little more gentle. You don’t actually need to soft next, in that you don’t need to cut off contact for a few days. […] Live in OLTR – This one is entirely different, because you can’t expect a woman to be horny for you every day just because you live with her. […] She can have sex with you if she wants, and if she doesn’t, you’ll get your needs met outside.

    To be honest, I was gonna side with you but then I re-read the article and frankly, BD is being fair here. A soft next is excessive for a live-in oltr precisely for the reason you stated, but it still means the guy is justified in leaving and fucking someone else. Sometimes he‘ll be in the mood for getting her in the mood, and sometimes he’ll be too horny for that and will just go see another woman.

43. A soft next is excessive for a live-in oltr precisely for the reason you stated, but it still means the guy is justified in leaving and fucking someone else. Sometimes he‘ll be in the mood for getting her in the mood, and sometimes he’ll be too horny for that and will just go see another woman.

    Hehe, this is good in theory, but it really doesn’t work that way. Depending on how you structure your life I suppose it possibly can, but I think it’s unlikely.

    If my wife refuses sex I can try texting one of my fb’s but at that kind of late notice they’re going to be busy 9 times out of 10. It’s hard enough to schedule in nights well in advance. Then there’s the hassle of booking a hotel at the last minute, they have to get themselves done up to see me etc. just doesn’t really work that way.

    I could just leave and go to a brothel on a whim if my fb’s are busy, that’s easy enough. But it won’t be without drama. If you pull that kind of crap too often your live in OLTR is going to feel like she’s being held to ransom, ie. if she’s really not in the mood she has to put out or you’ll just walk out, that’s not cool.

    Generally speaking the idea of you being able to do that is enough, it tends to level the playing field that is otherwise just too heavily in the woman’s favor nowadays. So it keeps you both honest, she will never use sex as a weapon or as leverage and will be more than happy to fulfill your needs most of the time, and you hers.

    This is mainly just a word of caution to anyone in a live in OLTR that wants to take the ‘walk out and bang someone else’ advice literally. It’s unlikely she’ll put up with that for long if you’re doing it too often.

44. Hello! I am new to all of this but really excited about developing an Alpha 2.0 lifestyle!

    Recently I had an FB over, we had amazing sex for at hour or so. After we finished, watched a little TV and I started getting horny again and this time when I began to escalate she said “no”. I said “what’s wrong with you?” her: “nothing” me: “Ok good” escalation again, “no” again.  Me “oh look at the time, it’s almost time for you to be going home isn’t it” and she agreed, so I took her home.

    I’m not sure if I’m in a nexting situation here or not. What do you think? I mean, we did already have sex that night, is that relevant? But we usually have sex 3-4 times on a given evening.

    You recommend zero contact, zero explanations when you next. But the “event” that caused her to be nexted is such a small moment in time…plus, it wasn’t some big emotional thing, I just tried to have sex and she said no and so I took her home (and called another girl over to watch the movie I WAS going to watch with girl 1, and fucked her instead)

    If I stop contacting this girl for a few days, will she really know why? I am strongly tempted to say something along the lines of “too bad you were in a bad mood tonight I was looking forward to a full evening together, hope you’re feeling more fun next time” and then going radio silent from there.

45. too bad you were in a bad mood tonight I was looking forward to a full evening together, hope you’re feeling more fun next time

    And that will likely lead to her leaving. You’re trying to use the soft next as punishment for her only wanting sex 1x. I wouldn’t say anything. If it continues to happen, plan on only having sex with her once and send her home earlier.

46. You can’t expect women to go from angry/turned off, to turned on and desiring sex with you, without making attempts to get her in the mood.

    I don’t expect this. I would still engage in all the usual foreplay before actual penetration to get her turned on.

     “Yep, I know you were expecting sex but this time you’ll give me your presence and attention while being horny and frustrated” is a total bitch move

    Precisely. It’s not a quite “total bitch move” in my opinion, but it is something that’s great for the woman (she gets attention, which all women crave) and shitty for the guy (he’s horny and frustrated with blue balls). The problem is this is something women have a very, very difficult time understanding. They just think you’re being childish or selfish. (“Well, I like spending time together without sex! You should like it too! Just like me!!!”) I don’t think it’s even possible to explain it to them. I promise you that Lovergirl is going to read this and think we’re absolutely crazy.

    If my wife refuses sex I can try texting one of my fb’s but at that kind of late notice they’re going to be busy 9 times out of 10.

    That’s true. Logistically its not always possible to literally go have sex with someone else right then and there if your live-in OLTR says no, particularly if she does this late at night, which is common.

    That’s okay. As long as you have other options that week as minimum (and she knows it).

    This is mainly just a word of caution to anyone in a live in OLTR that wants to take the ‘walk out and bang someone else’ advice literally. It’s unlikely she’ll put up with that for long if you’re doing it too often.

    Correct. It can be done, but as I’ve said, you’ve got to be a little more gentle, and have systems in place for this problem before she moves in.

    Also, as I said in the article, if she’s resisting sex from you “often,” something is very wrong in your relationship at a core level regardless of your response to it.

    I’m not sure if I’m in a nexting situation here or not. What do you think? I mean, we did already have sex that night, is that relevant? But we usually have sex 3-4 times on a given evening.

    She already had sex with you, and usually does, so if one time she didn’t want to have sex again that’s not nextable in my opinion. Though as always, this stuff is really up to you.

    If I stop contacting this girl for a few days, will she really know why? I am strongly tempted to say something along the lines of “too bad you were in a bad mood tonight I was looking forward to a full evening together, hope you’re feeling more fun next time” and then going radio silent from there.

    Click here and read question number 20.

47. Do you think there is a link between your high sex drive and your high caloric intake? Gluttony?

48. Do you think there is a link between your high sex drive and your high caloric intake? Gluttony?

    Too off topic. Assuming you’re not a troll, please ask that in a thread where it makes more sense.

49. Deep conflicts rage at the heart of modern sexuality. Our cultivated ignorance is devastating. The campaign to obscure the true nature of our species’ sexuality leaves half our marriages collapsing under an unstoppable tide of swirling sexual frustration, libido-killing boredom, impulsive betrayal, dysfunction, confusion, and shame. Serial monogamy stretches before (and behind) many of us like an archipelago of failure: isolated islands of transitory happiness in a cold, dark sea of disappointment. And how many of the couples who manage to stay together for the long haul have done so by resigning themselves to sacrificing their eroticism on the altar of three of life’s irreplaceable joys: family stability, companionship, and emotional, if not sexual, intimacy? Are those who innocently aspire to these joys cursed by nature to preside over the slow strangulation of their partner’s libido?

    (from Sex at Dawn)

    I still think that, while not being a plain-minded, boring, low-libido fellow, I’d never get fed up with the same female for however many years.
    However, since all my partners have been biologically normal people, they haven’t given me the chance to test my consistency for more than 1 year or so (I hate to continue a relationship once I see they are bored, so they don’t end up after the average 3 years, but before, since as soon as I see they aren’t enthusiastic any longer I put an end to the whole business).

    Sure, at all times (even during NRE) I feel the instinct to mount other females. But I don’t feel hurt by keeping from it.
    And I don’t lose sexual attraction for my mate.
    I consider myself an exception, and agree with BlackDragon’s view of human nature.

50. What about bj’s? Would it be too harsh to enact this same technique when they become scarce?

    Edit: Also, it’s funny I just ran into this old thread from RVF, about this guy that got sex withheld. He got pretty good advice similar to BD’s https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-50192-page-2.html

51. What about bj’s?

    No, leaving because she won’t blow you is unnecessary. Just have sex with her and get your blowjobs from one of your other women.

    One of the many beauties of nonmonogamy is you never need any one woman to do everything in bed you need.

52. I also would be content to be with one woman IF she remained sexually attracted to me and invested in a romantic and lustful relationship. I think most guys would, but maybe I’m an exception too. I just know now that it’s nearly impossible to find a woman like that.

    Generally, women move you into the “family love” category eventually as we all know. That’s really the best you can hope for in a long term monogamous relationship. She will love you, but not romantically. They just cannot maintain that once you’re the safe and comfortable guy.

    What I’ve found though is that it is not just the sex that disappears. When she is denying you sex over and over or just giving you sporadic wife sex, she’s done with you romantically. That means she isn’t going to be trying as hard to make you happy in all the other ways a long term partner would ideally. Your feelings won’t matter and probably be annoying, just as your sex drive is. There will be weak or no birthday presents. Less caring about going out on dates. Just less in generally. The relationship will be in maintenance mode once she is comfortable and knows you for long enough. That’s if you’re lucky. If not, she will also be continually irritated by you because she doesn’t understand why she no longer is attracted to you and maybe is looking for answers. At that point where she can barely fake interest in you anymore, it’s over. Just call it. Most guys do not. They wait until both of you check out and she asks for a divorce eventually (or you just live the rest of your life checked out). Call it early once she is bored. I agree. Do it for both of you. I really think the natural state of women is serial monogamy. I’m pretty sure BD has said this as well.

53. Regarding the BJ debate. I’ve seen many guys that would dump (or, in the case of an Alpha 2.0, next) a girl over this.

    I have encountered initial resistance to giving head multiple times. In my personal experience, I have had very good success not making a big fuzz about it. When asked why I was not pushing it like other guys, I would laugh. I promised to make them come so hard and so many times and if they feel like returning the favor, I am not stopping them.

    The reason why they initially rejected was varied – from being a sex negative conservative to, sadly, rape. I am not even sure what their reasonings were for some.

    The “issue” always solved on its own, whether it was the girl offering to “give it a try as she really wanted to please me” to one girlfriend just jumping down on me like a Tijuana hooker on heat (I suppose banging her in a friends’ shower with my hand on her mouth to muffle her moans fried her brains).

    Ironically, the woman that vehemently believed that BJ’s were “degrading” and “disgusting” ended up being totally obsessed to the point where she wanted to blow me off almost every minute of the day. Unfortunately, she really wasn’t any good at it.

    Granted, the girl would have to perform and be eager in other ways. If she is a complete dead bird in other ways as well, then well, there simply is no physical compatibility. One thing that does piss me off if she used to do it but then suddenly always refuses with arguments “she does not do that stuff anymore” or suddenly “it is gross”.

    Best part of my advice is that as a true Alpha Male 2.0, you can just get your BJ needs met somewhere else, making it much easier to keep your cool with the others.  Plus, there is some satisfaction to be had if you convert her from a shy girl to a nymphomaniac 😉

     

54. “If she’s an OLTR, and there is an emotional component to her excitement, then she’s directly violating the parameters of an OLTR relationship, and now we have a very serious problem.”

    How would you know that there is an emotional component?

55. How would you know that there is an emotional component?

    She’d be your girlfriend. You’d know. (Unless she was an amazing liar and actress at all times.)

56. Yeah but if you can soft next her than she can do the same to you for whatever reason.

    You would have to be OK with your girl sucking off other guys, I personally am not.

57. Yeah but if you can soft next her than she can do the same to you for whatever reason.

    She will next you regardless. 75% of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships and 80% of marriages are ended by the female. So she’ll dump you eventually either way.

    You would have to be OK with your girl sucking off other guys, I personally am not.

    She’ll suck off other guys either way. Either she’ll cheat on you, or she’ll dump you then fuck someone else. If you’re perfectly happy with monogamy and her dumping you and fucking someone else, than you’re advocating serial monogamy, which I’ve demonstrated before is only for higher drama men or lower sex drive men. If that’s you, then go for it.

58. You would have to be OK with your girl sucking off other guys, I personally am not.

    When I was new to BD’s content, I originally thought his techniques just aren’t good enough if he can’t build loyal harems (Girls who won’t cheat on you). And his arguments about drama didn’t convince me. To be clear, I was more worried about risk of STDs than anything else. But I found his guides about STD prevention and guarantees (that STDs are less common that we think they are) then I was mostly relieved.

    Onto the issue of my jealousy (or greed, whichever you want to call it). Some of BD’s mentality resonated with me and I started convincing myself. I started imagining my idealized self who was very well accomplished and was regularly conquering his goals like it’s no big deal. Obviously, this version of me has much going for him and even if he is greedy and self-centered, a mere girl leaving him wouldn’t even scratch his ego nor take away his happiness. So it wouldn’t make sense for him to take the time to build a flimsy wall around her and expect it stand against human nature. Moreover, he has much love to give and he is very understanding of those around him, even if they leave him.

    Wanting to become that person, I internalize his mindsets. Even if I have to bite a few bullets while doing that.

    Bottom line, take it like a man.

59. You would have to be OK with your girl sucking off other guys, I personally am not.

    Why do you care if she does?

60. Why do you care if she does?

    Scarcity mentality and jealousy. It all comes down to jealousy. Moreover, people who have been cheated on have a very difficult time comprehending abundance mentality. I once tried to convince a friend of mine to stop expecting commitment from women. He was too emotionally damaged by a consecutive series of infidelity to think clearly and accept it. Oh well, maybe he’ll grow up someday.

61.  

    So unlike a typical next, you don’t issue a warning in these situations, right? You are able to escalate and ask twice more in twenty seconds?  That kind of sounds like you are suggesting that you just ignore her and continue to escalate, to see if she’s seriously going to stop you two more times. Is that right?

    What about when a woman starts “negotiating” with sexual favors? For example, she’s totally down for sex tonight, no worries there. Then she remembers something she knows that you like and says:  “well if you do the dishes for me then I’ll do x, but if you don’t, I won’t.”

    To me that’s definitely sex-drama. It’s not as extreme as refusing sex, but still, she’s sending a clear message that “aha, I know the things you like and I’m going to use them to manipulate you, rather than using that knowledge to pleasure you voluntarily.” Surely the attempt at manipulation can’t be ignored. How would you respond or “warn” a woman acting that way?

62. So unlike a typical next, you don’t issue a warning in these situations, right?

    More or less, yes, but you could issue a very general warning like, “You know I don’t do this.”

    You are able to escalate and ask twice more in twenty seconds?  That kind of sounds like you are suggesting that you just ignore her and continue to escalate, to see if she’s seriously going to stop you two more times. Is that right?

    No. This isn’t a seduction scenario. This is a relationship scenario.

    In a seduction scenario, yeah, escalate, freezeout, escalate, freezeout, escalate, then wrap up the date after three nos.

    But in a relationship scenario, escalating after she’s told you no is just going to piss her off and make you look needy. Just next.

    What about when a woman starts “negotiating” with sexual favors? For example, she’s totally down for sex tonight, no worries there. Then she remembers something she knows that you like and says:  “well if you do the dishes for me then I’ll do x, but if you don’t, I won’t.”

    No! I never, ever have transactional sex within a relationship. Very beta. I only have sex with women who want to have sex with me and enjoy doing what they do sexually with me.

    The only exception I can possibly think of to this rule is if you’re doing sugar daddy game and you’re actually paying a FB money for sex. But that’s money, not “I’ll suck your cock if you wash the dishes.” Yuck!

    To me that’s definitely sex-drama. It’s not as extreme as refusing sex, but still, she’s sending a clear message that “aha, I know the things you like and I’m going to use them to manipulate you, rather than using that knowledge to pleasure you voluntarily.”

    Agreed.

    Surely the attempt at manipulation can’t be ignored. How would you respond or “warn” a woman acting that way?

    I don’t think I’ve ever had a woman pull that on me (0ther than when I was married and beta of course). If a woman did, I would simply say, “I don’t do transactional sex. If that’s the kind of sex you want, you need to go fuck someone else. And if you don’t want to do X with me, no problem, I’ll do that with one of my other women.”

63. To me that’s definitely sex-drama. It’s not as extreme as refusing sex, but still, she’s sending a clear message that “aha, I know the things you like and I’m going to use them to manipulate you, rather than using that knowledge to pleasure you voluntarily.” Surely the attempt at manipulation can’t be ignored. How would you respond or “warn” a woman acting that way?

    It’s not only drama, but also a clear indication that your frame is totally fucked. If she’s thinking about kitchen chores when she sees you, you’re in trouble. A next is the best way to recalibrate.

64. Scarcity mentality and jealousy. It all comes down to jealousy. Moreover, people who have been cheated on have a very difficult time comprehending abundance mentality. I once tried to convince a friend of mine to stop expecting commitment from women. He was too emotionally damaged by a consecutive series of infidelity to think clearly and accept it. Oh well, maybe he’ll grow up someday.

    Agreed, but I was curious to see how he’d answer.

    I wonder about that growing up thing. I’ve had my share of oneitisy, beta relationships, but my response to cheating has always been the same: “Fuck it, I’m gonna go bang other girls”. No one ever taught me that, so is it something people are born with? Or perhaps something that develops at an early age?

65. No one ever taught me that, so is it something people are born with? Or perhaps something that develops at an early age?

    I think it might be innate, but the kind of innate that unfolds when you hit puberty (just like puberty itself, which you’re not “born with” but born with the developmental program that triggers it eventually). I also think it’s a similar mechanism to the one that makes you hang out with a new friend as a kid to piss off your other friend whom you had a fight with. It’s just that the pattern extends to sexual partners when sex becomes relevant at a given age.

66. I wonder about that growing up thing. I’ve had my share of oneitisy, beta relationships, but my response to cheating has always been the same: “Fuck it, I’m gonna go bang other girls”. No one ever taught me that, so is it something people are born with? Or perhaps something that develops at an early age?

    No, that’s not what I mean. This particular emotional friend of mine is an alpha. He’s just convinced himself that virtually all  women (including his mother who left him and his father) are evil after being cheated on several times. Now, being the slightly redpill smarty pants that I was, I’ve warned him to be careful about how much emotional investment he was putting into his latest girlfriend (he was beta back then) but he got mad at me and blew me off. He later admitted that I was right after he was cheated on.

    The problem here is that instead of accepting the fickle nature of women, He’s just mad at them (He’s starting to sound like MGTOW). I told him that his disappointment comes from his misplaced guy-disney expectations and that is not women’s fault. He took half of my advice about becoming alpha but ignored the other half about acceptance. On top of that, he’s still going after monogamy. I think he plans on fucking around with a few girls then settling down with a *facepalm* pure and innocent girl (yes, his after the unicorn).

    Ya’ll know what’s going to happen. He’s going to fuck around with three girls tops and then get oneitis  for one of them and claim that he’s found perfect wife because he’s experienced now™ and he knows what he’s doing™.

    He’s changed a lot from his beta days. He’s very aggressive and misstrusful of strangers. On the outside, he’s built a wall of toughness and bravado but on the inside I see that he is as vulnerable as ever, maybe even more when he finds that unicorn.

    But onto the issue of you fucking other people when you’ve been cheated on, that’s just natural. It may not be the norm due to the betaization of men but it is natural.

67. If your natural inclination is to go bang other chicks after a ‘monogamous’ GF has cheated on you, good – but lose the GF. If you keep her, your operating out of scarcity *because* your retaining someone in your life that deliberately violated your trust. Any person has the capacity to break things off or have a tough conversation with you before cheating on you. But if they deceive/lie/manipulate – goodbye, good riddance.

    I totally get where Pyro’s friend is at regarding women being evil and being mistrustful of everyone. A question I’ve asked myself recently has been somewhat helpful. If I could somehow get over the lifelong belief that *ideally* one cock goes with one pussy until one partner dies, and consigned myself to the belief that it’s monogamy itself that’s the evil illusion- could I genuinely appreciate women? In better moments that gives me a ray of optimism.

68. If your natural inclination is to go bang other chicks after a ‘monogamous’ GF has cheated on you, good – but lose the GF. If you keep her, your operating out of scarcity *because* your retaining someone in your life that deliberately violated your trust. Any person has the capacity to break things off or have a tough conversation with you before cheating on you. But if they deceive/lie/manipulate – goodbye, good riddance.

    Unless she’s giving you drama, luring you into emotionally investing in her or emotionally damaging you in some other way, you shouldn’t cross her off. That in my opinion, would be a waste of resources. Emotional self-control has never been a problem for me when it comes to love but I understand that only few have this trait. So it wouldn’t be wise to assume everyone can pull it off without getting oneitis again.

    Onto the issue of women being “evil”… Here’s an interesting analogy:
    Whenever babies speak or walk for the first time, everyone applauds them. When adults stutter or lose balance, others might make fun of them.

    Why do people have this amazing double standard? Those adults clearly do a better job than those infants yet people humiliate the former and praise the latter. It’s because of their expectations, of course. Adults are supposed to operate normally and infants aren’t.

    Commitment should not to be expected from either men nor women because they aren’t biologically inclined to do so. Expecting rabbits to solve equations is stupid. Expecting commitment from women is naive. When you look at it this way, my friend’s ex was really just a victim of society’s expectations. And my friend was a victim of societal programming. If you don’t blame a brainwashed victim for killing someone, then you shouldn’t blame women for answering their biological calling.

69. This is right on 100% and now I have proof of many of these issues working since I have moved in (gulp) with my gf.

    It is kinda an experiment and I have zero expectations in regards to exclusive relationships btw.

    The funny part is that she knows this and it drives her crazy. Additionally, I have begun to notice she will play up her medical issues sometimes as a way to say no to sex but she knows my rules on this, which are both people should be available for each other or we are no longer exclusive by default.

    Several times after she said she didn’t feel like it, I’d act like it’s no big deal whatsoever and then head out to the gym or something. I never stay home or cuddle like she wants!

    After I come home, she is usually all decked out in something sexy and has changed her mind. She knows she can’t aggravate me and use sex as a power play or I will just smile and go do something else….like water off a ducks back.

    Sometimes they will then get mad because you left them all alone or decided to ignore them. The key is they gotta learn that if they want attention, the way to get it is by being sweet and drama free, not the other way around.

    When drama starts, get away asap and be yourself and act as if you didn’t even notice she was mad or throwing a fit lmao. I do best when I imagine I’m Jerry Seinfeld or on the Impractical Jokers and just as carefree as possible. A goofball. Drives them nuts.

    One time we were cuddling on the couch and she got upset cuz I kept begging her for sex. So, I calmly get up, go to the bedroom and masterbate to a porn and mind my own biz. She walks in and is like what are you doing leaving me all alone on the couch! As if I should have watched the porn with her! I just started laughing and said I figure you weren’t in the mood so was doing u a favor. Sorry and goodnight gorgeous. Then she tried to rip my clothes off lol.

    One time she said this isn’t gonna work out (living together) and was being all dramatic.

    I said “I understand sweetie….. I’ll call some apartments tomorrow morning. Maybe I should get a place closer to my job anyways? Goodnight.”

    She starts crying and wanting to discuss it. So, I ask in a stoic tone, “well can we still date non-exclusively after I move out? I’d still like to see you occasionally if you’d like to?”

    She about flipped out and we are still living together 2 months later….

    The key is learning how to deal with them and letting them learn that you are cool NO MATTER what happens. She knows I am FLEXIBLE to all situations.

70. *** update on above ***

    1). The GF began to get more controlling and use shit tests on a reg basis and threats of kicking me out

    2) She wld say sorry but I continued to look for places and told her I’d still prefer to move out and date her non-monogomously maybe

    3) As it approaches the deadline of me moving out, she had to one up me and kick me out first (lame and predictable)

    4) I acted as if I was excited to move out and was jamming to music while packing boxes

    5) 2 weeks after moving out, we still dated non-monogomously

    6) she eventually found another mono BF to try and control

    7) waiting game now

    This proves much of BDs points in that much of this mono deal is about Control. On one extreme you have what ladies call the Players (Alphas) and on the other extreme you have the Control Freaks.

    It’s my theory that you will never see a Control Freak in a open relationship. If ladies could learn to break this desire for control, they might be able stop this endless mono cycle. If not, they are doomed to a life of constant changing of relationships every couple of years unfortunately.

    I have also learned how to spot the ladies that are control freaks and to use this to my advantage. They love a good challenge lol 😉

    So I give them one….

71. @BD

     

    How should I handle soft nexting a non-livein OLTR while she’s at my place after explaining to her how horny I am? Do I ask her to leave?

    Thank you!