Another Pick-Up Artist Gets Married – An Analysis
Yet another big time pick-up artist (PUA) has surrendered to traditional monogamous marriage (TMM). This time it’s Richard La Runia, aka Gambler. For those of you not well versed in the PUA community, he was from the original crowd dating back to Style and Mystery. Gambler and Adam Lyons (AFC Adam) are the two big names behind PUA Training, and were the ones who bought out the original Fast Seduction forum from Formhandle many years ago, causing me to create its replacement forum back around 2011.
He wrote this article here about his new marriage. Though the article is dated June of 2017, the comments date back to November of 2016, making this almost year-old news. I’m somewhat surprised I hadn’t heard about this before then. I just stumbled upon this while looking for something else.
Since PUA is the world I came from, I admit I have a soft spot for some of these guys, and I have nothing against Richard personally. The reason I have to analyze what he’s said about his marriage is that he says some of the exact same statements, sometimes verbatim, that I’ve always said former Alphas and PUA’s say rationalizing traditional, monogamous marriage.
As you’ll see, he’s following the exact “I’m 35 years old and tired of all this” playbook that so many other players in the PUA community and the manosphere follow. And sadly, like all the rest of them, he will eventually end up in the same place (i.e. angry, divorced, financially raped, and fighting the court system to see his own children).
Here’s a few things he said in the article (the bolded words in his comments are his formatting). Prepare to see a torrent of false Societal Programming like you’ve never seen…
When I did have relationships in this period, I wasn’t totally in to them. I usually knew immediately that it didn’t have legs. The girl was nice or kind or smart, but usually I knew that she wasn’t “The one“.
It was comfortable, but I still had that nagging feeling of “not quite right“.
To want to share things with someone and to give all you have, you want to feel that deep connection and love that you just can’t feel for every girl.
It has to be the right one.
As I’ve explained many times, Alpha 1.0’s, players, PUA’s, and other manosphere pick-up guys tend to view women and relationships as black-and-white thing. Either she’s a “slut” or she’s “wife material,” nothing in-between. Either I bang her like a whore, or she’s my serious girlfriend getting ready to marry me… no other options.
This attitude always, always eventually brings a sense of loss and emptiness to a man. It’s a horribly dysfunctional way to view women, dating, sex, and relationships. Sadly, these views are further bolstered by false Societal Programming.
This is exactly why my systems incorporate a range of relationship types instead of an overly simplistic binary view. FB’s, MLTR’s, high-end MLTR’s, OLTR, OLTR marriage, and many levels inside some of those relationship types. Utilizing this system in your woman life, you’ll never be dissatisfied. You’ll get exactly from women whatever it is you want. Using the black-and-white “bang bitches” or “let’s get married” system, you are guaranteed to end up feeling depressed, unfulfilled, and empty.
I’m tired of partying
I’m 36 now, so of course I’m not interested in going to clubs 7 nights a week.
So in the past few years I’ve met lots of girls through other means.
I’ve also slowed down.
If you’ve read my blog or my books, you already know the answer so this question: At what age do I always say men suddenly start wanting to settle down? 35. Gambler, following right along with the program, suddenly got tired of partying at age 36. Very, very predictable.
When you devote your 20’s and early 30’s to getting laid without any thought to your long-term future, you will suddenly do a 180 to the exact opposite direction when you hit your mid-thirties. When you do this, because you weren’t thinking long-term, you’re going to hit this “male wall” very hard, and make all the wrong decisions.
Unlike most PUA guys, I got started in this world when I was already 35. Instead of just going out to bang a bunch of women, I sat down and made a long-term strategic plan that would help me not just for the next few years, but for the rest of my life. Yes, I spent a few years being a PUA and having sex with a large number of women, but at all times, I knew this period was temporary, and that I would have to soon down shift into some other type of lifestyle that was more sustainable for the next several decades of my life, all the way into my 70’s and beyond.
That’s why, unlike just about every other guy in the manosphere, you’ve never seen me do a sudden 180 on anything, and say something like, “Oh fuck! I’ve been wrong all this time! What I really should have been doing is THIS!”
This was basically continuing to have casual and semi-casual relationships. I could date multiple girls, I could date one girl but she’d know it wasn’t going anywhere.
One downside was the lack of connection with one person.
As usual with players and PUA guys, Gambler doesn’t understand how a man can pair-bond with one special woman he loves very much while still being a man and being able to get sex from other women on the side if he wishes. It’s called an OLTR, Gambler, and we’ve been discussing it on forums and blogs all over the internet for at least seven years or so. It’s not that complicated. It’s definitely “weird” since it’s against all of your Societal Programming, but your SP is wrong, so that doesn’t matter.
So the first problem is no deep connection with a girl.
Because you don’t understand, or refuse to understand, the concept of an OLTR.
The second is family.
Most people want to have children.
As I’ve demonstrated on this blog and my books literally hundreds of times, neither legal, traditional marriage, nor absolute sexual monogamy are required, in any way, to live with a woman and raise happy, healthy children with her. If you want kids, great. Move in with her correctly and have kids with her correctly, but don’t get 100% monogamous and don’t get married the wrong way. Instead, do it in a way that doesn’t jeopardize your financial future or sexual present.
God dammit! This is not complicated folks!
Again, you’re letting your false (and very outdated) Societal Programming fuck with your future.
It’s sad to watch. Honestly.
The third issue is that it just gets old.
As a 45 year-old man in your position, I agree with you. Nonstop pick-up, first dates, late nights, one night stands, and short-term FB’s do get old. But that doesn’t mean you chop off your balls and place them into a woman’s purse by promising forever sexual monogamy, or get into a standard marriage where she now owns half your stuff and can literally send you to prison if you don’t pay. Jumping to traditional, monogamous marriage because you’re tired of being a player is a massive, ridiculous, and dangerous overreaction.
And let me tell you something, Gambler. Having sex with hot 20 year-old models might seem “old” to you right now, but after only having sex with ONE WOMAN and THAT’S IT for two, three, four years straight, you’re going to be dying for those 20 year-old girls like you wouldn’t believe. Just watch.
Although I know I can be a single 50 year old and still date 20 year old models, it just starts to get a little bit weird.
Again, you say that now. Let’s see how you feel about it after five years of monogamy. If you last that long without cheating of course, which the odds are you won’t. I’d bet money on it.
And by the way, you don’t have to be a single 50 year-old man who has sex with 20 year-old models. You can be an OLTR married or OLTR boyfriend 50 year-old man to a woman you really love and care for… and have the 20 year-old’s on the side if you want. For fuck’s sake, it’s not a black-and-white choice.
You’re a smart guy, Gambler. I know you see this stuff. You just don’t want to.
Get married and have a “normal” family
This route always appealed to me.
My mum wants grand kids, I definitely want children, and I definitely want my girl to be the one I have the deepest connection with.
As a fellow “older” man, I want that too, but neither standard legal marriage nor absolute sexual monogamy at all times are required for that.
I don’t want to be a 45 and 55 year old “weird PUA” that is still gaming and working on their text openers or whatever bullshit.
Yep, the next standard excuse. It’s excuse #28 in my Objections To Nonmonogamy article right here. Here’s literally what I wrote there, copied and pasted from that article:
28. I don’t want to be hanging around dance clubs picking up chicks when I’m 45 years old.
Neither do I. I’m almost 42 years old, have women who love me, have plenty of sex, am very fulfilled and happy, and I haven’t set foot into a dance club in many years.
There are many other ways to meet attractive women who will like you (including younger women) besides dance clubs.
I wrote that almost four years ago, folks. Either Gambler copied it from my website, or I’m very good at predicting how men rationalize their bullshit Societal Programming. You be the judge.
And one more thing, Gambler. You will be a 45 year-old guy who needs pick-up techniques because either you’ll get divorced (which means you’ll need to meet new women), or you’ll cheat (which means you’ll need to meet new women), or you’ll (unlikely) follow my advice and open up the marriage (which means you’ll need to meet new women).
Unlike you, I don’t denigrate pick-up skills. Every man needs pick-up skills because it’s literally a skill you will use, at least off and on, for the rest of your life (until and unless you get rich enough to just pay for sex, but you may not want to do that).
Finally, he admits that there are at least some other options:
Before I tell you what happened in the end, I know that a few of you might be wondering stuff like:
– Why not just have a bi-sexual girl and have threesomes all the time.
This is called a threesome-only OLTR that I describe in my books. It is essentially the same as monogamy, since your girl will have 100% and complete control over your sex life. What happens if/when she doesn’t want threesomes anymore? Congratulations, now you’re monogamous. Unacceptable if you want a long-term relationship with someone.
– Why not have a bunch of girls and be in a polyamorous relationship
Yet another common excuse I’ve addressed in #8 here and wrote an entire article about right here. You don’t need to be polyamorous! That’s MLTR’s. Have an OLTR, a serious open relationship with just one girlfriend or wife.
You don’t need to fuck lots of women! One OLTR and one FB on the side is all you need. That’s two, and two is not “a bunch.”
The first option can work. But it’d be harder.
When girls say they are fine with stuff, you can’t always listen to that. It’s natural for them to be jealous, just like it would be for you. How often would you have other girls? how often is too much?
Correct. At least Gambler’s smart enough to see that a threesome-only relationship won’t work long-term. Good.
The second option is not something I believe in. I’m not a chakra and crystals kind of guy so I don’t roll in those circles where anything goes.
You don’t have to be polyamorous! And what the fuck do crystals and chakra have to do with having sex with two or three women? Do you think I’m into crystals, Gambler?
Do you see how men go out of their way to avoid dealing with their own insane Societal Programming? Isn’t it sad?
I also like a girl who can be considered “good” by traditional measures.
Outdated, puritanical, right-wing, guy-Disney BULLSHIT!
Who gives a FUCK what “traditional measures” are? Are you insane? Don’t you realize it’s not 1952 anymore, and this crap doesn’t work anymore?
Jesus.
Finally I want my mum to be proud of me.
Classic familial Societal Programming, that I directly address in chapters three and nine in my primary book.
A grown, 36 year-old man basing his long-term life decisions on what his fucking mom thinks?
Are you shitting me?
Does that sound like a good long-term life plan to you?
Now he starts in with specific excuses regarding nonmonogamy that I will easily pick off like I’ve been doing for the last ten years…
To be constantly explaining your relationship and dealing with the friends and family of not just you, but the friends and family of all of the other people involved would be enough of a headache.
You don’t have to explain it to anyone except your parents and her parents. You don’t have to “explain it” to your friends or family members unless you really want to for some reason. The sexual details of your relationship are none of their business.
Moreover, as a man who has an OLTR who is also a fiancé, and who knows many men in OLTR marriages, I can tell you for a fact that you don’t have to “constantly” explain it to your parents. I explained it to my parents one time, and to Pink Firefly’s parents one time. That’s it, that’s all that was required, now they’re all on board and supportive. It’s not that complicated if you stand your ground and have some balls about this stuff.
Then fast forward and imagine explaining to your kids, and their friends’ parents and teachers. God.
You would never, ever explain the sexual nature of your marriage to these people. I have no idea why you would ever think something so ridiculous.
I suppose you could explain it to your kids once they are 18 or older, but by then they don’t care. As a man who has two grown children, ask me how I know.
On top of that you also have the “management” of the relationship itself. Did you give 60% of the attention to girl A?
Not relevant in an OLTR. She gets 95% of your attention at all times. The FB’s get 5%, at most. Not a problem.
Did girl B want to sleep with some other guy and you are not cool with that?
FB’s on the side can fuck whomever they like. You won’t care because they’re FB’s. As a matter of fact, it’s actually preferable that if you’re in an OLTR, your FB’s have boyfriends. It’s much easier.
Did girl C finish the toilet paper and not put the new one out. I mean people argue, and it’s a miracle when two strangers can live together and get on without major incident, and adding more people just makes it even harder. Kind of like flat sharing with 1 person vs 6.
You only live with one woman in an OLTR. (I would never live with multiple “wives.” Multiple wives in my house? Are you fucking kidding? Shoot me.)
I’m a lover of a quite life with minimal stress and drama and definitely no chakra talk or chanting sessions. I want to be respectable and for my girl to be respectable.
Read what I said above about puritanical bullshit. And by the way, my OLTR, Pink Firefly, is more “respectable” than any other woman you could find to compare to her. She never does drugs, almost never drinks more than one glass of wine when she drinks, has never lied to me as far as I know in the 3+ years I’ve known her, is physically fit, hits the gym almost every day, is kind and sensitive, has never broken the law, never gotten into any serious trouble, never had any kids out of wedlock, is extremely hard working, makes a higher income than the average man, and is a Christian. (I actually consider that last thing a mild negative, but it sounds like you would consider it a positive). That’s the kind of woman who will agree to an OLTR if you have some balls, pal. Place her up against any woman you can find who you deem as “respectable,” and I’m probably going to win.
But again, I don’t care what society deems as “respectable.” That’s society’s problem, not mine. It shouldn’t be yours, either. Keep society out of your personal life! It’s your life.
Believe me, I can be a master manipulator and could construct any situation I want for my love life, but for me to respect my women they can’t be in a situation that devalues them or gives me too much power over them.
There is no devaluing of an OLTR in an OLTR relationship. If there were, she would leave you, as she should.
I’m confident in my decision, have no doubts, and have never been happier.
As I’ve demonstrated on this blog many times, that’s exactly what all men say when the engagement / marriage is new and exciting. It’s called NRE, Gambler. Yes, it feels good. But it doesn’t last. At some point soon, the NRE will fade away, and all you’ll have is a monogamous wife who won’t let you have sex with anyone but her, and who legally owns half your stuff and can walk away with it literally whenever she feels like it, and statistically probably will.
I realize that right now none of that bothers you. But it will, eventually. Just give it time.
See you when you get divorced, lose half of your shit, or cheat on her, and go right back to the pick-up techniques that you say older men shouldn’t need to use.
I’ll be over here being happy.
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Ohh man, one of the guys i followed religiously when I first got into pickup. How the mighty have fallen, I see this all around me of people being players and then all of a sudden getting steady girlfriends and getting married whatever. His post was so pretentious and full of SP I could barely get through it.
But oh well atleast he is making his mother proud!
Oh my goodness. My brother is 40 and has three girls -2, 5, and 10. He is about to get divorced after 12 years of sexless marriage.
How old will he be before he has a child free home? 58 or 60 years old!
Now, myself got married at 20 and we had 2 kids and I got divorced 3 years after a very high sex drive marriage. My son is 20 and on his own and my daughter is 12 and stays w her mother mostly. I’m virtually 100% free of children at age 42. And boy is it great!
I have done both the marriage seen and the dating seen and can tell you the dating seen with less children is WAY more fun and happy.
And this is coming from a Cancer!! (July 6) We are considered the family man. The homebody types lol.
Additionally, I really love my freedom and being able to do whatever I want and how I want with nobody asking where I’m going etc.
But having kids at 35 sounds absolutely terrifying to me and I’m gonna guess that by the time he is 45 and she got 2 or 3 babies out of this idiot, he will be thrown to the curb….
I really question how “Alpha” these guys are.
They seem completely incapable of sitting down and thinking about what they truly want themselves outside of the influence of societal expectations, coming up with a workable plan and then actually “moving through this world without apology”.
They’re like big children who think it’s cool to bang lots of chicks, make weak moralistic madonna/whore judgements and then fall back to doing what they’re told by their mothers. Just because they spent a lot of time practicing pick-up, doesn’t really seem to make them very alpha at all.
and don’t forget Mark Manson..
Or one other guy, he’s popular in PUA world, but I completely forgot which one ?
anyone?
Meanwhile, recently came from brother from another mother..
https://tomtorero.com/2017/10/08/where-puas-go-to-die/
Give this man some credit!
It is NOT impossible to have a regular marriage with good sex for many years, decades even.
With children, with SAHM mother, with everything you call “disney” be it guy or girl version.
What is true is, that it is kinda rare these days in the west.
The average guy and the average girl are not able to pull it off and what BD writes happens more often than not.
HOWEVER.
This guy is no ordinary “Joe Average” and I strongly suspect he didnt marry “Jane Doe”.
Their marriage might very well work.
Note: If he has sex with a few girls on the side (I think he will), this is by no means any prove his marriage “did not work”.
It would also not make it an “open relationship” (or BD system) because he is most likely not going to tell her nor allow her to do the same. It would still be a traditional marriage like they have been for hundreds of years.
It might be higher drama than following BDs advice, but “ruin his life”? We shall see.
Where would you put Gambler on your chart from your previous blog entry now?
BlackDragon, I wonder if you’ve read any of Scott Adam’s (the Dilbert Cartoonist) work. He writes a lot about a different approach to success. His views have a lot in common with the way you go about dealing with dating. Basically he believes that systems are better than goals. Your approach looks a lot like a very good system. Finding “the one” and wanting to get married is more of a goal. This goal is very limiting and once you’ve reached it, it creates higher chances of disappointment. You’ve created a system that will give you higher chances at being happy. It is also a more flexible approach that can adapt to different changes in your life over the long road.
The “I don’t want to be the old guy at the club” trope always makes me laugh. I just turned 40 and haven’t been clubbing since my mid 20s. I have way more success with women now without stepping foot in a club. I hated that scene anyway and from what I hear, it’s a big sausage fest these days. Just another lame excuse from these guys. Got to love the predictable reasons they spew just like Straus and Tucker max.
Side note, I see more than a few folks get trad married to appease family or to do it before grandma/grandpa dies. Guess what when they’re gone, you’ll still have to live with your decision. What low value people place on big decisions
“I’m tired of partying
I’m 36 now”
Why do people become like this? They become misanthropic as they age? They can’t party any longer because of their fading looks?
Please someone explain it to me.
You’ll probably find him trying to sell the purple pill lifestyle of “how to get the dream girl & keep her” in a couple of months.
He’s basically a marketer who, while he had some success with pick up, realised there was easier money to made by writing up theory and pushing other guys stuff.
He’d email you products like ‘sure fire ways to talk girls into bed’ using a book that his mate had wrote and had given Gambler 50 copies before he “had to go on the run from the government for using them illegally”.
It was so funny.
At a boot-camp some friends attended, he did a two hour talk on techniques for clubs and bars but never actually came out in the evening with the students to demonstrate (Big red flag there).
He’s still living off his (tattered) reputation and is probably already divorced.
What I don’t get is that these guys believe the prison exist and preach against it but don’t take measures to remove the SP. Because this is actually the make or break of a man. Even if he understood the concept of OLTR, he wouldn’t have tried it because of SP. But if he took the time to rip this shit away from his life, I guess he would have been in a much better situation to understand and accept it.
OLTR does seem to work better to me than any other types of relationship/ marriage, but I feel it is challenging to find a good OLTR. BD is lucky to find a high-quality woman like Pink Firefly. I read her Q&A and was impressed by her intelligence, sense of humor and open mind. Some of her good responses made me laugh.
But most women around me still tend to be jealous in relationships and only want monogamy. From what I have known, it did take BD long time to find a nice lady like Pink Firefly to be in a OLTR relationship. OLTR works but just hard to find the right partner.
I may be biased cause I am a female reader and in my 20s. I really enjoyed the blog and it actually made me more open-minded about relationships/ marriages.
they will come back. all will come back. just a matter of time.
Perhaps because they assume, subconsciously probably, that they should be “partying” in exactly the same way that they did when they were 18 or 20. For me, at 26, I don’t usually “party” in the way that I might have when I was 18, but I haven’t given up partying, in the best sense of the word. Of course, I don’t know yet how I’ll be approaching things when I’m 36, much less 46 or 56 or 76…
@question
“Why do people become like this? They become misanthropic as they age? They can’t party any longer because of their fading looks?” A couple reasons.
The simple answer is SP that tells us to “settle down” and “man up” and other shaming language that goes with it.
Some of these guys also burn out on the extreme party/PUA lifestyle and feel they need to be married to reign themselves in-they essentially lock themselves in a jail cell because they feel they can’t trust themselves.
Also groupthink is a big reason. They see all their friends and peers getting traditionally married, having kids, etc… and follow the herd. It’s the path of least resistance up front and you’ll get all the pats on the back for finally doing what’s “normal”. Social validation is a hugely important to many-look at how social media has exploded!
Make his mother proud? Talk about outcome dependence! What a fucking titty baby. He has strong, strong mainstream programming.
And who says you have to explain to your parents that you’re going to bang an FB or two on the side? Again, just more of his programming hangups and fear of shaming himself and his family if he were to ‘openly’ be an unfaithful husband.
No balls! I like how he said he can be a master manipulator if he chooses to, because he sounds like a total phony and that’s the only way he can live his life up to now, because he’s afraid to just be himself and do whatever he wants.
Case in point: Why the fuck is he even justifying his marriage to internet readers? He’s mostly trying to convince himself.
No wonder his book “The Natural” is being given away for free in my e-mail box via SoSuave.com.
I didn’t capitalize on the offer.
Good heads up, BD…
wasnt vince kelvin married like 3x ?
OK so I am at the juncture where I am trying to turn a previous mono GF into my first dream OLTR.
She broke off with me yesterday because I wanted some alone time to work and was paranoid that I wanted the alone time to fuck other women since she knows I don’t believe in mono relationships (even though I tried it for 9 months with her).
It bugs her that I am so carefree and outcome independent. She actually says this and that she has never felt as attached to a man like me and that she will just wait on me to be mono, even if it takes her 20 years.
I got my stuff out of her home and went back to my apartment last night in a very calm and easy way. We hugged and she cried and I drove off. Note: we were engaged also until about a week ago when she decided to change her mind and not do threesomes anymore. So, I said the marriage is off.
She was texting me last night a lot.
So, if I want her in my life forever and her to get used to me having an FB eventually, what do I do about these issues?
1) She is currently on my Golds Gym membership. Do I remove her instantly or still let her come play ball or work out with me as a way to rope her back in slowly to be my OLTR? But it also makes it easier for her to know that I have nobody else on my membership as well.
My instinct tells me to “pause” (not cancel) hers for now. What do you guys think?
2) I am paying for her Turnpike pass on her vehicle, which makes it easier and more affordable for her to see me.
3) Her Birthday is tomorrow. Do I still give her her BD present or not? She was the one that broke up with me.
4) I have a house cleaning biz and I figured I could still allow her to clean homes for me but doing this means we would be in constant contact, which could be both good and bad. Tricky….
Should I not allow her to keep working for me or not worry about it?
Thanks guys & gals!
You have it the wrong way. It is far less challenging to find a good OLTR with this system than going about the monogamy route or any other route. Because you choose the high quality ones and give them the status from the start. If they fail you, you downgrade or next. If they don’t then over years you pick one from the pack that don’t have problem with OLTR concept(and there are many who accept this if you do things right). Many options and most importantly it is not relied on luck. Now compare this with the challenge than the mono guy has.
Oh boy.
The last time I had this feeling was right before I saw a horrible car crash.
Yikes.
This kind of hits close to home because it reminds me of my siblings attitude towards things like open relationships.
Just for some background info I’m probably the only one of my siblings that hasn’t any chance (slim as it is)of making long term monogamy work do to my weirdly low sex drive and I’m not even going to try to attempt it thanks to statistics.
But my brother and sister both have very and I mean very high sex drives and when I presented this blog to them they said that they couldn’t do it because they don’t want someone they love sleeping with someone else.
Sad because I know they aren’t capable of monogamy and are headed for some serious shit down the road.
Blackdragon
You forget to mention that his wife doesn’t work by choice so she will likely be a long term stay at home mum. This means if he does get divorced then he will get really financially fucked as she was a stay at home mum. Also. His wife is Russian. So if they spilt, she may move back to Russia with the kids. Risky move. All his recent girlfriends were Russian though. So if he wanted to be with them long term pair bonded he would either have to live in Russia or take her back to U.K. and get TMM as that is only way she would be legally allowed into U.K.
Even if he got a pre nup in England it wouldn’t be worth shit as they aren’t legally recognised there as you know !!!
@CurtisOKC
You care too much about your outcome with her. You’re going to end up in a bad situation if you keep trying to ‘win’ her. She’s said that she’s not interested in a non-mono relationship with you, so cut all contact. Go have sex with other women. If you still want to see her after 6 or 8 months(or more) of no contact send her a single text and try to hookup with her. If it doesn’t work, forget about her entirely.
For such a great PUA, Gambler sure is a beta male who cares way too much about what his mother and “society” and “his buddies” think about him, his relationships, his shoelaces etc.
How can you go from peacocking with shiny purple feathers to “I want to make sure my mommy is happy about everything i do”?
Am I the only one who stopped “working” on my game (i.e. actually analyzing everything) after it got consistent? If you get the results you are satisfied with, why not just let your new abilities take over and let things go? If you keep getting the results you want, great! Don’t waste your time. If things start going downhill, start giving more thought to what works and what doesn’t.
It seems clear that Gambler needs a Mission completely unrelated to women or his PUA business. That could help him get his mind off of women and kids. When he feels fulfilled, he can make those choices from a rational standpoint instead.
Oh boy I just read the entire article by this Gambler guy-pretty nauseating. Seems one problem is that most of his friends are women who probably bust his balls all the time about settling down with the “one”. Guys need close male friends in their life, just a couple, to avoid this sort of betaization by proxy (sounds like his mommy is also a part of this). They got in his head since most of what he’s stating sounds like relationship advice from fucking Cosmo or HuffPost.
Once again people assume you have to be this crazy player for life or TMM-there is plenty in between people.
@parade
Yeah your right….
Last question – I have already unfollowed her on Facebook. Do I also unfriend her as well?
Tom torero is a true pimp, I actually learnt a lot from him. He also mentioned not gonna be married and practice BD style of relationship management.
Other than Todd Valentine from ex RSD who can practically break down the daygame nuances. I believe Tom is the great daygamer, impressed.
This is a classic case of “reality is what I WANT it to be.”
Many people at the end of the day simply don’t want to believe/ know the “grim truth.”
And yes, the idea that you need 3 women, not 1, to have a happy stable relationship where you’re getting all your needs serviced until your dead, isn’t exactly ‘feel-good.’
Simply put. It’s a lot of work. Most women want to be the only one and you need to basically negotiate and brow beat them mentally until they realize it’s your way or the highway — so go along to get along.
Not to mention acquiring 3 women vs 1. Minimal work for some guys, more work for others. And the FB if they are like most women will need to replaced inside of 3-6 months depending on the relationship.
#ripGambler
#ripMystery
Is not just your looks, your testosterone diminishes as you age.
@Curtis
The Facebook thing is irrelevant. As parade says just forget her and go out & see other girls.
Remember she has to step into your frame not the other way round.
It is more than feel good for a man, if SP is out of the way. Most men whine about being with one woman and don’t get any. And most men see some chick they want to hit, but can’t because their wife will throw hell at them.
It’s not a lot of work. It is actually the opposite IF you put the work at first. Then you learn to brush their shit tests with such an ease that it becomes fun. And when they realize it, they are so into you that they get along. Is it better for them to feel empty inside for years by being with a man that does not attract them anymore? Or is it better for them to get on their nerves for not following their agenda but telling you everytime months/years later they can’t wait to see you for wild sex? Guess what is better for them? Guess what is better for a man? Mono relationships are much more work in that you relax by being a pussy. You work for the woman, you do what you do for the woman. You stop being you.
For the guys that require work to acquire 3 women, it requires work to acquire 1 woman. If you don’t know game or you are not that confident with women it will be difficult for you to acquire that 1 woman anyway. If you learn game acquiring 1 or 3 women is essentially the same work. If you suck on that, acquiring 1 woman is difficult anyway and will take you months/years. But if you put the work to learn game for some time, then you will be acquiring women easily.
BD –
Good article.
I’ve been wondering about a potential problem I see happening once a man makes the switch from the MLTR/FB model to the OLTR/FB model, which may affect his long term happiness, and was wondering if you had given it any thought on how to address it if/when it comes up in the future – other than ending or downgrading the OLTR and going back to MLTRs/FBs.
Specifically, it’s the ability to have new relationship energy (NRE) with new girls. As you made clear, the OLTR/FB model foresees, and takes into account, the fact that as a man you will crave sex with new women in the future no matter how much you like/love your OLTR, so absolute monogamy is not an option. Completely agree with you there. However, I’d argue that in addition to having sex with new or existing FBs, most men will also eventually crave the NRE feeling you get with new women just as much.
Given that eventually the NRE with the OLTR will eventually wear off (assuming it hasn’t already), the problem in the long term is that the inherent dynamic of the OLTR rules preclude the man from getting future NRE.
Yes, the OLTR model preserves the ability to continue having sex with FBs, which makes it far better and more sustainable than monogamy with cheating. But it seems that agreeing to preclude yourself from ever getting NRE again without fundamentally changing the rules of the OLTR relationship would be just as unsustainable in the long term as agreeing to be monogamous – i.e., eventually the man will either break the OLTR rules behind her back and develop an MLTR on the side (basically the equivalent of cheating), or he’ll have to end the OLTR all together so that he can go out and pursue the the NRE without having to sneak around (the equivalent of a break up).
It’s possible that I’m overvaluing the NRE feeling compared to sex with an FB, but for me, the feeling of NRE with a high-end MLTR is just as, if not more, “addicting” (for lack of a better term) than bringing a new FB into my rotation.
So to reiterate the issue, I’m having trouble seeing how making the promise to one woman in an OLTR to never seek NRE again during the course of our relationship is much different promising monogamy.
Anyway, do you have any thoughts on that?
@Curtis: no birthday gift tomorrow. I can’t confidently answer the other points but she’s broken up with you (doesn’t matter that she’s making it complicated or grey-area or whatever), so it would fuck up your frame to give her a birthday gift. Read the There’s This One Girl article and apply the steps. Beyond that she’d be becoming too toxic an influence on your life and you’d be safer just moving on. The fact that she’s impressed by your *occasional* outcome independence is not enough and it can be a bad thing if it drags things out without stabilizing the situation.
Thanks so much guys!
She also pulled this 180 and started doing this “I’m gonna be a good Christian again and stop doing threesomes” routine I’ve seen many chics do. They try to shame the guy w biblical stuff.
So, I told her once she can practice the Sabbath for 90 days, fell free to discuss my sins then. Otherwise, I won’t listen to it since this is my personal “hypocrite test” for all the Wanna be Christians out there.
Again – thank you guys for the advice.
I already have new dates setup too btw…
I’m not surprised to hear Richard got married because in an interview a few years ago he mentioned he was looking to get married and settle down, and I thought WTF there goes another PUA getting traditionally married. Richard was one of the very few much better PUA types (he seemed closer to the vibe of the Seduction Community that also like early PUA either fell apart or got co-opted/overrun by angry weak guys filled with hate, I liked his videos on stealth touching, and unlike many current angry PUA’s he didn’t go around hating on women/constantly trying to put women down/or pretending to be a miserable abusive a-hole jerk treating women abusively). Now that he’s attempting to please his parents for approval and validation and living his life according to the expectations of other people; That is classic beta behavior.
Basically every PUA was/is a beta (many of them admitted this). I don’t know of any PUA types who were Alpha to begin with. I currently only know of around maybe four guys who write about “game/open to meeting women” type content who are anywhere near Alpha 2.0.
My relatives had expectations of me being a doctor as that was their definition of success. I did not want to be a doctor, so I did not do that to please my relatives. If I had followed the expectations of other people I would not have learned three of what I consider the most important things I have ever learned so far that changed my perspective of the world (it took me many years of research to learn those things), and I would not have decided my own definition of success and how I want to live my own life. An important skill to develop is to think and act independently of social pressure/societal brainwashing programming, to think and act for yourself, to make your own decisions, and to live your own life. Especially with repressive religion who uses the topic of sex to control people and societal sex-negative shaming (of especially women but of men too) in various ways; They don’t genuinely care about you, it’s just a way for them to justify their own beliefs/opinions to themselves. If anyone ever tried to shame or control me I would think (“Thanks, now I know to avoid them”), as I did by stopping going to church. I now avoid organized religion (and as a positive result I have much less stress now and I’m much happier now and I feel much more sexual and financial freedom).
It is okay to have “illegitimate” kids “out of wedlock” because this is now a new era with DNA testing, and around the 1970’s laws finally changed in the U.S. allowing inheritance to be given to children had while not married. Previously, so-called “bastardy laws” and later “Legitimacy family law” for children born outside of marriage were not “really” for morality (as many religious still falsely believe) as those “laws” were more for economic reasons (for political power of who controlled the land and money, leaving land to a son, in an attempt to limit abandoned children in an era before women could work outside of the house to economically support children and in an era before contraception when many orphaned children were dropped off for the village to raise). Even in 2017 there is still some states with “laws” against pre-marital sex and against other sex acts too still on the books in those states, but those “laws” would not hold up after recent Supreme Court cases in favor of freedom for non-married legal age adults to do consensual intimate acts in private. The lid has been (maybe around half) removed, but most guys WANT to stay in the jar.
It won’t work if you include cheating as a failure. PUA’s have set a precedent for sexual variety, which makes them literally incapable of long-term sexual monogamy (myself included). Even if he never gets divorced, which is very unlikely, he’ll cheat, and get caught. If you don’t consider that a failure, then fine, but it’s not monogamy nor traditional marriage at that point; it’s simply a dysfunctional open marriage.
Then it’s not monogamy, nor traditional marriage, and my point is proven yet again. And he’ll have drama. And he won’t be consistently happy. And so on.
From what little I know of him right now, perhaps a very low Alpha 1.0, or a high-end beta if he really does prefer Russian women.
I have read his work extensively, including his books, and wrote about him here:
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2014/09/28/when-successful-people-get-married/
But I stopped reading him a few months ago since he switched 80% of his content to defending Donald Trump.
There are many but the biggest is that the human brain/mind/biology was not designed to constantly be banging hundreds of new women at all times forever. It’s not a sustainable condition. The problem that the human brain was also not designed for monogamy, and monogamy is also not as sustainable condition.
The answer, as is so often the case, is somewhere between these two unsustainable conditions.
That would be fine with me (I’m a capitalist) as long as, if he has “keep her” as part of what he’s selling, he doesn’t write that book/content until he’s been with her for at least 20 years.
You’ll notice I never write about how to “keep” a girl. That’s by design.
It’s not. It just takes some time. You shouldn’t be in a hurry for an OLTR anyway, so this is okay.
I WAS NOT “LUCKY.” I dated scores of women in nonmonogamous relationships over a period of 10 years. When you put in those kinds of numbers, you’re almost guaranteed to find someone of high quality.
It’s not luck. It’s a system plus action. I can provide the system, but you must put in the action. (Though you’re a woman so my system won’t apply to you 100%.)
It’s the exact same with me. How do you think I make it work then?
You really need to read this (several times):
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2015/05/04/ignore-what-women-say-only-watch-what-they-do/
For the second time, it’s not hard. Finding Firefly was very easy. It just takes a little time.
I don’t know. Link?
Correct.
Holy shit! I didn’t know that. Are you sure? Link?
I don’t know if what you’re saying is true, but if you are, then Gambler is a likely a more high-drama guy.
Correct. Prenups in England are useless, much like Australia and California.
Correct and agree 100%. Once I got to the point where I could reliably an cheaply get laid within three hours meet-to-sex with women I considered hot, I consider myself “done” with seduction skills and focused on other areas of improvement. This “you must push yourself forever!” thing is popular among many parts of PUA culture, which is dumb.
“chop off your balls and place them into a woman’s purse” -Yes
Only some men with more emotional or passionate personalities. Most won’t care. But yes, that will be a problem for those men.
If you are really concerned about this, either you’re just KJing and freaking out about something that won’t matter, or you are one of those rare men who crave not only sex from new women, but NRE with new women. If that’s you, realize that you are in an unusual category and most men (myself included) are never going to have that problem.
It’s okay to get excited about a new FB you find who you find is really hot or really good in bed. That’s perfectly allowed in an OLTR. But yes, having NRE with a side-woman at an emotional level is not allowed. If you simply must have this “emotional NRE” with new women all the time, then either you should never have an OLTR (just a high-end MLTR), or lie to your OLTR (not recommended obviously), or you’re going to have to adopt a polyamorous relationship model that is beyond the scope of what I talk about.
So the guy is repudiating the PUA lifestyle, but when I clicked on the link to read his original blog post, I was trapped by the most tenacious “give up you email address or else” scam. He’s gonna keep profitting from selling PUA training and products? That’s kinda messed up…..
I’m sure there’s a name for this fallacy in formal logic: pretending two polar opposite extremes are the only two options, and then concluding your only choice is the “lesser” of those two evils.
BD has outlined – and lived – a very sensible lifestyle that supports a man’s (ok, most men’s) normal biological and psychological needs in a sustainable, low drama way. Something I’ve really started to understand is that a big part of a woman’s attraction to a man,is her knowing that he has options with other attractive women, and CHOOSES to make her his Primary. If he’s locked in by societally programmed monogamy, he’s not choosing and therefore way less attractive to her, eventually becoming pittiable, even contemptible.
Yes, and I question how red-pill these guys are.
The manosphere is so full of SP that it doesn’t even seem like a subculture anymore. It’s moving more towards the mainstream culture and now becoming part of the right-wing spectrum within the mainstream culture.
I also notice that many people tend to give advice that only fits their specific situation they are in at that particular moment. They don’t take into account that other people are at other positions in life.
They think they have found the ultimate truth and want to tell everyone about it. But this is like saying “Hey, I was fat and I lost weight and this is the perfect diet for everyone in the world.” without taking into account that not everyone is overweight and wants to lose weight. Many people want to do the opposite and gain weight.
This is what I like about your approach BD. You don’t say “I have found the ultimate truth and everyone has to do that. Everyone has to get an OLTR ASAP.”
A good coach has to take this into account and not make himself the center of everything. I don’t know Gambler but the attitude he shows makes him seem like a bad coach to me.
Who do you have in mind? BD, Tom Torero, who else?
False dichotomy I guess. Reminds me of how in the 1930s, (loosely quoting an article), there was a propaganda message offered as the nazis were emerging in Germany. It was “National Socialism or Bolshevik Chaos.” Someone wrote underneath a large poster of the phrase “Spuds or Potatoes.” Nice laconic rebuttal, trolling the crazies before it was cool too as the nazis reportedly went apeshit over it.
As BD said, finding a good OLTR is not luck. I get guys telling me all the time I’m SO lucky I found my OLTR.
My answer is always. I didn’t find her I MADE her! My GF was traditional and as Disney as they come when I met her.
And if you look at what BD and Pink Firefly have said about their relationship I believe her made her as well. She had no intention of being in an OLTR when she met him. She didn’t even know that was an option. It was only his clear frame and sticking to his guns about his lifestyle that enabled their relationship to happen.
If you stick to the system and stay 100% in your frame all you have to do is keep dating and having MLTR‘s. Sooner or later one of them is going to naturally be “the one” (pun intended) that becomes an OLTR.
Bingo.
Correct. My entire system is how to date “normal girls” under this nonmonogamy model, not spend your life screening for bizarre exceptions to the rule.
If I said, “You can only be nonmonogamous with women who have prior nonmonogamy experience,” then that wouldn’t be very much of a system, now would it? 🙂
Exactly. Which is exactly how I found Firefly. I didn’t “go looking for her.” She simply “appeared” among the crowd of other FB‘s and MLTR‘s and things moved naturally from there.
Paul janka who taught me about daygame got married as well. https://youtu.be/KOZHHs1Usx8
I know.
Key quote from that video you posted, “I read some of the stuff I wrote back then and say ‘Oh my god, who was that guy?’ I don’t even recognize it.”
Life incongruency.
Thanks! 🙂
A good OLTR is worth waiting for though. BD provides some good advice and a good system to follow to find an OLTR, but I understand it does takes some patience.
Blackdragon.
You asked me to provide a link showing that Richards wife is Russian. Here it is. Her name is Katia and she was 26 at the time of this article. He received a lot of backlash for this article from British women as you can imagine as he was saying British men should ignore British women and go to Russia and find a wife for TMM. They don’t have kids at the minute, as far as I’m aware, but I meant- if they do have kids, then she will be a stay at home mum and if they get divorced she could very well just take them back to Russia leaving him screwed.
I’m sure after reading this article it will be make you chuckle.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4752706/Seduction-expert-says-men-date-Russian-women.html
@Neil
Thanks man!
OK, so is there a minimum # of days I should go before letting her back in to attempt to change her to my OLTR?
She is already texting me.
What if she wants my cock this weekend?
If I say no too many times or ignore her too long, isn’t that bad as well?
The whole reason she broke up was because I told her I needed some space or few days to work and she got upset because she needed to get laid every night ( her words!) lol. No kidding.
Plus, she assumed that was code speak for me wanting to cheat. Now, she is setting at home and I have my freedom.
Thanks!
@Curtis
She wants you to reply immediately so you jump through her hoops. She’s using the fact that you want sex as a leverage tool.
Remember its ‘cat string theory’ i.e. you dangle a line of wool in front of a cat and keep pulling it away & the cat goes crazy for it. But if you drop it in front of the cat, it will sniff it and just walk off bored.
Leave replying for several days and then just keep it brief (“Hey. I’ve been busy. What’s up!?”)
Then you just leave it and if she replies, wait and slowly ingratiate her into your schedule so you can define, how you want the relationship to be.
What does “respectable” even implies? Do you mean there are people who deserve little or no respect? What criteria do you use to establish whether somebody is “respectable or not?
Just read Gambler’s article and… while I respect the guy’s wishes, the whole thing just stinks of Guy-disney. I am actually surprised that someone as experienced as him would act so beta-ish.
This particular point on his wish-list for a perfect woman really stands out to me:
“Who is confident and won’t take any of my shit. I need to be kept in line, just like any guy, I’ll respect her much more for that.”
Why the fuck would you want your woman to control you? This is pussy-beta shit. I am not a control freak myself, but I prefer to be in charge of a relationship. I even sometimes playfully act a bit of a sexist duche and say things like “nah, you are a woman, I am a man, you have to listen to me”. Usually followed by her giggles and a slap on the ass with a smile.
Strange world…
Dear god, this is all my fault! I think Gambler has been reading my field reports!
Yo Gambler – I’m not a “chakra and crystals” kind of guy either, nor do I indulge in any “chanting sessions.” Just because my girlfriend is Wiccan doesn’t mean I had to convert. For the most part, she keeps that shit away from me and has never pressured me to engage in any of her religious rituals (except for wanting a Wiccan wedding, which I declined). Her and I live together now, and her friends come over sometimes, but I’m usually either somewhere else when they get into the ritualistic stuff, or we just all have sex together.
You don’t have to turn into a feminine airy fairy, flower power faggot in order to be poly with a girl who just happens to be a practicing pagan. You can retain your masculinity and you don’t have to profess your belief in anything!
Also, as BD pointed out, in order to be in an open relationship, you don’t have to seek out the pagan community (although it helps), or even the poly community (although it helps). You can just convert a normal woman to the idea of open relationships. No chanting or summoning the mother goddess is required, lol. Jesus Christ dude!
Fucking hypocrisy! Gambler, you are dead to me!
To who?
What? The only people’s friends and family that I deal with are my girlfriend’s. No one else’s.
Uhhh, kids shouldn’t even know about sex until they reach puberty. What is this guy talking about?
I’m speechless here! I think this guy has watched too many porn movies revolving around a poly couple. That’s not how poly works in real life. Your children’s friends’ parents and your children’s teachers will never know.
As far as the rest of the world is concerned, you’re an ordinary monogamous couple. Nobody knows you’re poly, except the other people whom you sleep with and a very few super trusted friends. It’s called discretion, for fuck sake!
My own parents think I’m mono with a normal mono girl. Everyone in my life thinks that as well, except the people that my girl and I sleep with and her family (who are Wiccans). When I have a baby with her, you can bet your ass that I won’t be discussing my sex life with any fucking teachers or parents of my kid’s friends, unless the parents of my kid’s friends want to join in while the kids are asleep!
Jesus, what the fuck is this dude rambling about? He knows nothing about poly or how it works in real life!
What BD said.
Why in the world would you not be cool with that???
Who said anything about living with your fuck buddies? This guy is completely clueless! It’s embarrassing!
Slut shaming trash!
This guy is as blue pill as they come. He has no business in PUA, in the seduction community, or in any sex-positive circle. Fuck him!
His description of the night he first met his wife:
Typical slut shaming beta prude! And:
Classic 1950s.
There is literally no difference between this guy and an omega male virgin who has never heard of the red pill. No wonder PUA is in such a state of disarray. We have blue pill betas stuck in the matrix leading other blue pill betas stuck in the matrix. Shameful!
That’s even IF he has sex with that one chick lol.
I’m actually glad that PUA cultists/scammers are choosing to destroy their lives. Here’s hoping that the RSD assholes are next.
I feel like people who jump into marriage as a solution don’t have a long term life mission.
Their first life mission is getting laid lots, when that’s done….
Incredible. He friggin’ moved to Russia just to find a wife. Ugh. He’s not only bought into the monogamy myth, but also the foreign women are better myth as well, and with Russian women no less.
Again, incredible. No matter how many times I see it, it still surprises me.
EXACTLY. The entire concept is stupid.
I agree. Guy-Disney and what we used to call “Madonna/whore.” Pure SP.
Bingo.
BD, I thought about you.. which you’ll find as no surprise and a good chuckle. The singer Pink Opens Up About the Hardships of Monogamy
It occurs to me that while we might decry what Gambler has done, we actually are in his debt as he has provided the perfect vehicle for discussion and hence, education.
BD must have thought that Christmas came early as he dissected and replied to Gamblers post. So many examples of how not to do it. And also, a good way to illustrate that even if you can’t be alpha 2.0 in all areas of life, there are plenty of places to start.
No, that’s their ONLY mission. And of course, it is inflicted by chicks and not themselves. When they feel like they are “done” (hit an acceptable “laycount” that the community can marvel at,) then they do EXACTLY what they were obsessed about doing when they sucked with chicks and that is to find one that will replace their mom.
In the end, nothing changes with PUAs and that’s why I call them scammers. That they actually charge money for the stuff they do is beyond me. Yes they teach good stuff, but they aren’t established in anything else but spam approaching drunk chicks in the middle of the night. Not worth a couple thousand for a “bootcamp.” lol
Why would it surprise you, BD? Have you seen how these PUAs have acted over the years? I mean yeah they teach some decent stuff, but the vast majority of them just have no idea about anything else except getting with the opposite sex. Strauss wrote about this kind of stuff 12 years ago. Its why I always never took PUAism completely seriously.
With all the SP still screaming at men to “man up and get married!! hurr hurr hurr” did you really think it wouldn’t affect PUAs? I should think that PUAs would be the prime target for the “man up and get married!” psyop.
Someone said it earlier, but getting married really is for people with no long term life mission. Get married to the man in the mirror. Yes, society will hate you for it, but society never cared about you anyways.
Pink is one of the most high-drama celebrities there are. In my experience, those are the kind of people who defend long-term monogamy the strongest. Her verbiage about how monogamy is worth it despite “lots of drama” and “not having sex for a year” is some of the exact wording I’ve heard other high-drama women and high-drama Alpha 1.0 PUA’s use to defend monogamy.
As always, if you like drama, go monogamous. You’ll “love” it.
I’ll be honest; it was. When I started reading his stuff I actually started smiling.
(I’m still waiting for Jay Z and Beyonce to get divorced…. oohhhhh that will be so much fun.)
Indeed.
Because it should be so obvious at this point that TMM doesn’t work, particularly for players.
It doesn’t literally surprise me; I get it. I just find extreme irrationality fascinating.
Of course it would; most PUA’s are closet betas after all.
I am a bit surprised that you speak as though it goes without saying that is necessary to tell your parents and her parents, but not the kids (until “old enough”) what is your reasoning for this?
To my mind, it’s especially not out parents’ business, I never would have considered telling them. But the kids would be too possible that they would somehow stumble on the facts and seems it might be better to make it a conversation than an discovery?
I think that it’s not all social programming and there is a biological pull to pair bond, pro-create and keep the species going but that was such a painful read.
If it wasn’t mentioned he’s a PUA selling PUA tuition I would’ve thought it a prime example of beta to the max schmuck who married the first girl he had sex with and stuck around.
While she may have the initial allure of the guy who can has (or appears to have)tons of girls, after reading that I’d be willing to bet that she will be the one to cheat or ditch him.
In regards to “having the talk” with a woman, I am wondering if you guys feel that it’s a smarter, smoother, and less drama strategy to just say something like this at first:
A) I’m a busy entrepreneur that doesn’t have time for the drama and control that comes with monogamy or serious relationships
B) I’m a busy entrepreneur that doesn’t like to be restricted, controlled and wants to come and go as he needs to w/out answering to anyone about silly stuff like running to the store or whatever
C) I’ve promised myself I wouldn’t be monogamous until I’ve accomplished certain goals in my life. I have an aggressive retirement plan and would like to travel more too.
D) I’m so busy that you would eventually get frustrated and end up breaking up w me. It’s not fair to you really
E) I’ve still got too much drama and fallout from my divorce 3 years ago to deal with and court battles. I don’t want you to have to listen and deal with my stresses – it’s not fair to you
F) I’m kinda a introvert when it comes to working and having an home office in my living room makes it difficult sometimes. I need some silence in order to work effectively. And that’s not fair to you.
Now, all of these items are 100% true about me. So, I would not be lying in any way whatsoever.
Then, in the rare occasion I have feelings for her, let them know this.
So, it’s more of a strategy that deals with me working a lot, my passions, my goals and my freedom, which reinforces my independent frame as well.
It also focuses on how this would not be fair to HER as well. Since I am so busy.
Just seems like a smarter strategy initially than trying to educate someone why monogamy doesn’t work. That conversation may or should come up slowly over the next few years ahead I suppose but gradually like drip drip drip.
I end it with (preemptive strike) asking her that she please use protection while with me and that I’m extremely happy with her but if something did occur, I too would use protection and get tested regularly for STDs.
I can’t help but wonder if this “busy work strategy” would have worked better for the lady I was dating recently and had great feelings for. I just feel the Societal programming was just too strong.
Anyways, y’all’s thoughts?
What does pair bonding have to do with marriage or monogamy? No one said that pair bonding is societal programming.
What does procreating and keeping the species going have to do with marriage or monogamy? No one said that keeping the species going is societal programming.
Why “but?” Why not “and?”
The biological pair-bonding is only suited for raising children really.
BD, this reminds me of what Lovergirl used to say about how to her, “alphas” who get betaized were never alphas to begin with, and that betaization is just the uncovering of a beta personality that already existed behind a mere façade. IIRC you seemed to disagree with this, can you clarify your view about Alphas who give in to betaization?
I plan to retire to Latin America in my 40s and marry an 18 year old Colombian. I hear them say all men cheat down there so maybe it will be cool if I get bored
1. Because the woman will tell them. Women can’t keep this stuff secret from everyone; women blab, at least to the parents.
2. Because if your parents see you living this lifestyle for 10+ years (as in my case), they’ll already know what you’re doing, and will likely ask.
Great. You won’t. But she likely will, eventually. Then you’ll have to explain everything. I see it happen in OLTR‘s all the time (myself included).
It was all fine until you said that. You can’t say that during The Talk. Instead you say that you will never be monogamous and you will never change. If you imply that you might get monogamous someday, she’s going to hit you over the head with that throughout your entire relationship (until she leaves). It won’t be fun.
Because the notion that “Alphas ever get betazied” is factually incorrect. I see “real” Alphas get betaized, at least to some degree, all the time, and you probably have too. Some of these men may have been closet betas, but not all of them.
That’s fine as long as you stay in Latin America forever (i.e. you never move back to the States) and don’t mind drama. (A Colombian wife? Yikes!)
I’ve been arguing this since my high school years. Pair bonding is OBW, especially with all access to social capital one can accumulate and communities that one can be part of.
Ehh I don’t know about that. He’ll probably be fine as long as he doesn’t get legally monogamously married. I know a guy who’s pulling in very good money as a Data Scientist. He’s able to work remotely, and only has to come to the office once a month. So he just moved to Cali, Colombia and flies in to the United States monthly.
He’s basically swimming in pussy over there. He could pull cute chicks, that didn’t have very much going for them financially in the United States. Although they were all basket cases! But in Colombia he almost has a Huge Hefner situation going on because of the huge income disparity, and low cost of living.
He had his main girl and he fucked all of her friends. Yet she remained loyal, obedient, and low drama. The first time she gave him shit he kicked her to the curb and immediately replaced her. These women are all 8’s, 9’s, and 10’s. Although I’m into hispanic women so I’m admittedly biased. It’s not like this guy has anything else going for him either. He’s: Fat, Short, Balding, and has a bad personality.
Not relevant to the issue of drama in a long-term, co-habiting relationship. Hispanic women, Colombian women included, are high-drama firecrackers.
I know. Still not relevant to the issue of drama in a long-term, co-habiting relationship.
Not relevant to the issue of drama in a long-term, co-habiting relationship.
I believe she was loyal and perhaps obedient, but I don’t buy the low drama for a second. (And if she was, she was an exception to the rule.)
A) You just proved my point about drama and B) that is not a long-term relationship, which is what David was referring to. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t want to marry an 18 year-old Colombian woman only to dump her when she’s 19.
BD
Why do you think Jay-Z and Beyonce are going to divorce? They can avoid that like 50% of people marriages do right? lol
“Although I know I can be a single 50 year old and still date 20 year old models, it just starts to get a little bit weird.”
No you can’t. Stop lying. The truth would be “I can be a single 50 year old and still date 28-29 year old former models” because the girls are looking for a provider with more resources. There no way you are getting 20 year olds. Mystery, rsdtyler can’t do it so no way Gambler can, they have early 30s women.
“So the first problem is no deep connection with a girl. The second is family.” The deep connection and family last for under 4-6 years. After that your girl will leave you forever and have a DEEP connection nightly with her new guy. She’ll likely take the kid monday to friday, you’ll get the kid on wkends and you’ll get to pay $2000 a month (for no sex) in alimony child support payments too.
The truth is probably you realize that going out to club 7 nights a week you have no resources. And now you want to try an Adam Lyons try a boring af business car insurance comparison since 2012.
What you mean? Even in case of children? I disagree. Children need BOTH parents, and BOTH of them FUNCTIONAL, i.e. not drug addicts, or with emotional intelligence of a 5y/o. I’ve grown without a father and it’s damage
No. Jay Z and Beyonce aren’t people… they’re celebrities. And they hate each other, and he cheats on her left and right, and they have a shitload of family drama. The only thing keeping them together at this point is their multimillion-dollar entertainment empire which would take a financial hit if they got divorced, as well as Beyonce’s “happily married woman” image… but I think eventually one of them (probably Beyonce) will crack eventually.
No. Biological pair bonding is not needed or suited for raising children. Emotional pair bonding, yes. But not biological, as your own screen name suggests.
Just because a man and a woman are in an open relationship does not mean they are dysfunctional, drug addicts, or have the emotional intelligence of 5 year olds. Poly people make great parents overall.
Biological pair bonding (monogamy) is OBW. Emotional pair bonding is natural and healthy, especially for the purposes of procreation. Children need a loving home with two parents who love each other. This is why poly households are superior to mono (and cheating) ones.
Dude, this is beyond cynical. There is nothing OBW about love, especially when creating and raising children. Stop being such a nihilist.
thanks for the article.
When you established an OLTR with PF, did you have to demote other MLTRs to FBs? I assume most women don’t take that well, how did that go?
A post with your experiences/advice on demoting MLTRs to FBs (e.g. when establishing OLTR) and how to avoid likely pitfalls would be much appreciated!
I forgot to state the differences. My bad.
Although I do agree, I would argue that a mother figure isn’t totally necessary, at least in today’s world. The problem is that most men are acting more like mothers now, and most women are acting like the “asshole father” who hits their kids and makes them feel like prisoners. Also I haven’t met too many parents who don’t act like overgrown children, or at best, overgrown high schoolers. As BD points out, being a parent is one of the most selfish decisions anyone can make. I’ve yet to run into a single parent who actually possesses maturity.
Again, you misunderstand me. I’m not arguing that it is acceptable to be a shut in hermit, I’m arguing that the operations involved in monogamy (pair bonding being the biggest “excuse” to be monogamous) is OBW. In this example, pair bonding is a euphemism for catching feelings. Its one thing to enjoy someone’s company, but completely another to rely on someone else’s emotional responses for happiness. And to go back to parenting, to me it is inhumane to rely on someone else’s actions for happiness (which is what parents do).
There is no reason for anyone to catch feelings ever is what I am truly arguing. We have WAY too many choices in selection in the opposite sex to enjoy.
Being a parent is alright but only as long as you are self accountable to understand that having a kid is selfish AF. Which many parents won’t admit.
ah so you took the 18 months or so to get your initial goal down and get up to par with bringing (hot) women into your life…then the rest (ten or so years) was just continuing the established standard, relationship fine tuning (or what have you), and waiting for one the right one to come along….?
once the standard was established though, it took less work to maintain…?
all while working on getting that cheddah etc
sounds pretty sweet
pretty bizarre how cookie cutter all of these pua 180s seem after a while. One thing I can relate to with gambler though…im tired of chakras and crystals.
can’t wait to afford smic!
I got lucky; when I upgraded her to OLTR I had no MLTR‘s at that moment in time, so I didn’t need to downgrade anyone. I just told all of my FB‘s I had a girlfriend now (and none of them cared; that’s the great thing about FB‘s).
If I had MLTR‘s at the time, I would have just downgraded them, and if they didn’t like it, that would have been their problem. Not a big deal.
Already did right here:
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/10/03/relationships-downgrade-upgrade/
More or less, yes, but I was very happy with my MLTR‘s and was in no rush for an OLTR. I was literally willing to wait until my 50’s to get one.
Men who are in a rush for a girlfriend or wife are asking for major life problems.
Of course. Far less.
Why are you people even suprized at all?
Most if not all men will fall into that trap. BD has fallen into it as well.
Now let me quote myself from the Childification of men article, what I think will always happen, especially to successful men:
How exactly have I fallen into this trap?
That is one of the most incorrect things anyone as ever said on my blog. As I stated in my MGTOW articles, I worked hard to make money for me, not for a woman, and not to get laid.
A fundamentally depressing, factually inaccurate, and dysfunctional view of the world. You are the classic angry MGTOW I warn about. I am so glad I’m not you, or anything like you.
Ok guys I have a question about giving “the talk” to ladies.
Currently, when I bring this up, I am treated like a pervert and shamed and belittled as if I have cheated or even worse.
I spend hours and hours of debate over weeks or months trying to get them to understand from a philosophical viewpoint.
After some thought about this some I am wondering if there is another softer and slower way to approach “the talk” – breaking it up into 2 phases: a) busy entrepreneur w/ life goals and sports and as time goes on b) full blown view and bring up BDs website over the next years slowly.
Like this:
1) I love you sweety and want to see you long-term or forever really but since I am a busy entrepreneur, I just don’t have time for the drama and control that comes with monogamy at this moment. Every time I tried this in the past, it never works. I am just too busy!
2) As a busy entrepreneur, I have promised myself I would not be get married or in a Virtual Marriage, which is what being mono is really kinda anyways, until I have accomplished certain goals and my life mission.
3)I have lots of drama from my divorce 3 years ago still going on in court, want to travel more and I play basketball 3 times a week. It wouldn’t be fair to you really either with all I have going on and me being so busy. I have an aggressive retirement plan and debt reduction plan that I need to implement and I promised myself that I would finish these before I ever re-married, if I ever did.
4) You would eventually get frustrated with me and just break up probably since I am so busy. So, it isn’t fair to you really.
5) I am kinda a talker as you know so it is difficult for me to have you here all the time while I am working (my office is in my living room) because it is difficult for me to focus.
6) Your sex drive is higher than mine and you said that you would want to have sex almost nightly. So, it wouldn’t be fair to you really.
Now, all of these items I listed are 100% true about me so I would not be lying.
Now, typically they will say something like:
Her: “Well OK can you at least promise me that you are not sleeping with anyone else or will not?”
(aren’t women adorable?)
Me: “but aren’t you happy seeing me the last few months?”
Her: “Yes of course but I need this to feel safe”
Me: “Oh well I just think that it makes more sense to not make big changes when things are going smooth like they are right now. I am just so busy that it would not be fair to you for me to commit on something that huge at this moment. I am just so busy working and with my life goals that it would not be fair for you and I NEVER tell a woman what to do…EVER.”
Now, if she decides to keep seeing me and I wanted her to be an OLTR possibly, then I could slowly start to bring up the Poly stuff (alpha male vs beta male etc) and how I don’t think it works for long-term happiness.
What do you guys think about this strategy?
Have you guys tried this and what are your results?
Just seems that I may have better luck with the “Busy Entrepreneur” route than with the “Un-brain wash 90% of females” route and save that one for the tiny % that I feel might be an OLTR or marriage =)
@BD
“How exactly have I fallen into this trap?”
You have been married once
“That is one of the most incorrect things anyone as ever said on my blog. As I stated in my MGTOW articles, I worked hard to make money for me, not for a woman, and not to get laid.”
That is something I don’t really believe. When I was 13 I wanted to be a billionaire, but nowadays money seems only important to bed chicks.
“A fundamentally depressing, factually inaccurate, and dysfunctional view of the world. You are the classic angry MGTOW I warn about. I am so glad I’m not you, or anything like you.”
lol I actually think MGTOW is wrong on so many things, that’s why I also said most MGTOW guys are delusional cause they want to make money to attract women and that is when they become blue pillers again. I think I am spot on, since men get easily attracted to women, especially when they make money. Sooner or later they will fall in love again, even you BD, make no mistake about it, Alpha 2.0. or Mega Alpha, it doesn’t matter
When do you bring it up? Do you delay the talk till you’ve been heavily dating for multiple months, like you’re supposed to?
You shouldn’t, at all. Not only ineffective but needless hassle for you. Re-read the articles/podcasts about how the talk and what leads up to it should happen.
Why? With all your different way of explaining above, it sounds like you are still trying to convince yourself that’s its ok to be non-mono.
Before I found BD’s stuff I had what was supposed to be a non-mono GF and we spent our whole relationship arguing and fighting about it. Deep down I was still guilty and feeling shame about wanting it. And I didn’t have the info or resources to feel at peace about it like I do now.
With my current GF I just told her. I’m not going to be monogamous ever. I don’t believe in it, I don’t like it and I’m NOT going to do it. Full stop. If you want to be with me you either accept that or get a different BF. End of discussion. If it ever comes up now. I just say you a free to leave and find a new BF whenever you want. But non-mono is NEVER going to happen with me. End of discussion again.
I sincerely hope that whoever had this sentiment knows how feminine it sounds. I have heard literally the same words from many chicks I’ve known. Its also a very toxic sentiment and reveals quite a bit about their success with chicks. This sounds like something that Elliot Rodger or Chris Chan would say tbh. Wow. Get some help and read some of BD’s books, bruh.
I just say it out of the gate. Right on the first date. If you are truly outcome independent, her answer literally won’t matter to you. It never matters to me, cuz I can just get another chick. Here’s what I say, word for word.
“I honestly don’t care if couples run around on each other as long as they know about it. So if you want a guy on the side or something, go for it.”
If a chick has a negative reaction to this, good. Hard next and done.
If a chick has a positive reaction to this, good. You are now in an OLTR. Now just keep up your end of the bargain and don’t catch dumbass feelings.
Outcome Independence solves everything involving relationships it seems.
Yes but I typically explain WHY I am poly and the analytics and science behind it. The last lady even knew about BDs website and she would say how he was a jerk etc. This went on back and forth for the last 9 months until she recently said she can’t keep seeing me.
Her ASD programming was just too high. However, I wonder that if I had instead just left it at I am too busy to be mono because of work and life goals, it seems that it would prevent her or any lady from being able to turn this into a love issue, a view point issue, a “player” issue, or her to shame me for whatever I think about Poly/Mono stuff.
Now, I have some FBs or ex GF that I see occasionally and they will totally agree with what BDs views are and they understand that the core reason I don’t want to be mono is not only because I am too busy, but because I do not believe that it works. We joke and laugh about it and they are cool. But these women are like the 1%.
I am referring to using the “Busy Work Excuse” on the other 99% in the beginning during the “talk” time versus just coming out and saying everything so fast.
Yeah. That’s your problem. I don’t have that attitude nor do most men commenting here. You’re projecting.
That isn’t what you said. You said every man falls in love with a woman, then she plays him and dumps him, then he ends up hating women. This has literally never happened to me. Women don’t dump me, they LSNFTE me, and 94% come back. And I’ve literally never hated any woman I’ve ever had sex with in my entire life (even including my ex-wife).
This is my last comment to you. You have issues. Seek help. I’m serious.
So you either need them to understand and agree with your position or you want to use a false excuse to trick them into sort of agreeing with your position. At least in the second case they can look forward to the time when you are not as busy and you can devote yourself to a blissful mono relationship.
Why are you trying to justify your position to them. Who cares if they agree. If they don’t they are free to get lost and find a mono BF.
No. I said it’s not false. All of it is true about me – I’m busy man with lots to do and it wouldn’t be fair to her.
I am very busy. One time I asked a lady if we could pause the relationship and I was dead serious lol.
@BD
“Yeah. That’s your problem. I don’t have that attitude nor do most men commenting here. You’re projecting.”
I doubt it.
“That isn’t what you said. You said every man falls in love with a woman, then she plays him and dumps him, then he ends up hating women. This has literally never happened to me. Women don’t dump me, they LSNFTE me, and 94% come back. And I’ve literally never hated any woman I’ve ever had sex with in my entire life (even including my ex-wife).
This is my last comment to you. You have issues. Seek help. I’m serious.”
That’s NOT what I said dude. I said your money will attract beautiful women and sooner or later you will fall in love again. Aren’t you in a relationship? Oh yeah, I know you call it an open relationship which to me is bs, it’s just a FB. Most guys here will never be a so called Alpha 2.0 they are delusional. I don’t think you are either. I said those guys will hate women AGAIN after they fall in love. I have read many books like yours, they are the same and tricky.
Of course it’s your last comment, cause you don’t have any argument left.
Good luck dude, you will need it. ^^
Stop doing that. The analytics and science, to convince a chick to let you fuck on the side, are you kidding me?
No, your degree of failure to apply a method that works was too high. Dude, this whole blog gives you an algorithm, literally an algorithm that even a robot from 1970s sci fi could apply, to correctly get a normal chick with typical ASD to agree to an open relationship. As long as you haven’t at least tried it once – and you haven’t – , there’s nothing you should ask about here, unless you’re asking for a mere confirmation that “yeah, you did it wrong, and it’s gonna keep giving you trouble.”
That’s your mistake: you think you can only be with chicks from the super narrow pool of women who do “agree with BD’s views” or can be made to agree with it. You’re needlessly reducing your options. Hell, afaik even Pink Pirefly doesn’t agree with BD’s views. Stop trying to convince them of anything. Date them, deflect attempts to have the talk before at least a few months into dating them, maintain a strong nonmono frame, next them or let them leave if they don’t like it, have the talk – in which you DON’T try to explain your “philosophy” or whatever – , seal the deal.
Wow…you are SO unusual! You know I’ve never met or even heard of a monogamous guy that was “Busy”! I mean we all know only guys that are not busy can be monogamous. Lucky most of the world is not busy.
None of us are busy! What the hell are you talking about. WTF does being busy have to do with being monogamous or not??
You need to have a good look at where your head is at. You don’t believe in non-mono deep down otherwise no one could make you feel like this or even have you thinking about it. Do you think a girl could shame BD and make him feel like a pervert because he gave her the talk? How many seconds do you think it would take him to hard next her arse if she tried!
Well, I was in a 19 year marriage but I was a closet Poly I just didn’t know it until I found BDs stuff. I am still learning yes. And yes I am man enough to admit I cheated on my ex-wife. I didn’t realize I was a Lion living the life as a tamed kitty cat. Only been divorced 3 years. But I have several ladies and doing quite well I think considering I just found this website year and half ago. It’s not all black and white. It takes time to go A to Z with dating and trial and error.
Anyways, it is true that I have been testing all kinds of scenarios depending on the lady.
I tell you what, I will just start using this “Busy Work Entrepreneur /Sports/ Life Goals” as my main reason (#1 reason) as to why I cannot be mono (for the “talk”) and see how it works for me and report back.
There have been some ladies that know of BDs website and we would print out his articles and debate them for fun (I love intellectual conversation and this topic as well). We actually had lots of fun with this for months and then she seemed to crack one day and have a 180 and decided to not talk about it anymore. She is one that I was prepping to be an OLTR some day maybe. She is currently on back burner.
So, my new strategy is more of avoiding any of that until I know them for 1 year plus maybe and instead of me being Poly as the # 1 reason I don’t want to be exclusive, I will make it as the # 2 reason. Flip them basically.
I can’t imagine how this could hurt since women are attracted to men that are busy and have goals etc.
The other issue I think is it could help with is this: I seem to have a little trouble telling them only 1 or 2 nights at my place or their place per week. If I see them 3 or 4 x per week, my face time w/ the FBs goes down and then I get the risk of oneitis by default.
By using my work as my main focus/excuse, it allows me to have a reason not to see them too much. I am my own worse enemy on this one as well. So, it has a Dual purpose kinda.
Anyways, thanks for the feedback guys….
Some of Gambler’s statements remind me of women’s statements about “settling down” after experiencing a lot of partying and promiscuity (usually as they’re approaching their 30’s).
Deciding to get married after finding “the one” sounds like a form of outcome dependence. A partner (long-term or otherwise) is unnecessary to be whole/complete/content/fulfilled as an individual.
Commitment to Mission > Commitment to Monogamy
Yes. Long-term monogamy is a direct outgrowth of OI.
Correct.
> A partner (long-term or otherwise) is unnecessary to be whole/complete/content/fulfilled as an individual.
I’m going to expand on your comment, @Kevin Velasco
Being dependent on a woman for fulfilment or anything else is paradoxically one of the most destructive things possible for a relationship!
In other words: “Cling to your woman, and you’re going to lose her”
Women hate, hate, hate dependence in a man.
They want to be with a leader, who inspires and is self-motivated.
They’re actually repulsed, at a subconscious level by a dependent guy (after all, that’s one of the most basic definitions of beta status.)
This is all hardwired in women’s hindbrains.
I hate to burst the “Gambler was a master PUA” myth but it needs to be done. I worked for him as an assistant coach (with PUA Training) for two years and I can tell you even in his London days Richard only used provider game. He would buy tables and bottles in posh clubs and flash his cash.
When he moved to Russia it got worse. I know he was buying girls iphones and all other sorts of expensive gifts. Of course gold diggers in a poor Russian city were interested in a western man offering to pay.
Sad times.
I am 50. My two primary LTRs are a 21 y.o. bikini model and a 22 y.o. hard 9. There is nothing “weird” about it. Using “weird” here is like women calling a guy “creepy” because he dates “out of his league”, or something else that they don’t approve of.
People Who Think What I Do Is “Weird”:
Chumps who can’t pull.
Post-Wall Bitter Bitches
People Who Think What I Do Is “Awesome”:
-Men who aren’t losers.
-Cool women.
-Women I bang.
-Me.
There are four things that age a man faster than anything: Too much booze, cigs, drugs and women your own age. A buddy of mine gave up dating younger women because “it’s difficult” and he found an older woman he figured he’d “settle” with. Two months in he sounds like he’s ready to die. As in walk into the mountains and be with the Great Spirit kind of die. I asked him what he liked most about her and he said she was “reliable and punctual”. Me: “You’re shitting me. You might as well eat all the donuts and pasta you want and hasten the inevitable.”
Makes sense to me, he never looked legit to me, not once.
Legit. That’s something you’ll never hear from PUAism scammers, is that even if you have “tight game,” more often than not you are still mad needy and put pressure on chicks to make you happy. That’s what this article is truly about tbh.
WTF?
Sorry joelsuf but you seem to have some serious issues with PUA and game in general. “mad needy” and “tight game” are not even in the same universe. You must be following some pretty shit PUA scammers if that’s what you’ve found.
A lot of PUA can be taken or left and people need to find their own way, but I for one have had incredible success from learning some of this stuff. Changed my life incredibly. Game is real and when you even know a little bit it can transform your results with women.
Not sure if you had a bad experience but you seem to project a lot of negative energy towards game and PUA that I don’t think is warranted. Guys without game are way more fucked than guys with even bad game!
If Gambler was doing what the other guy said he was then he didn’t have any game anyhow and is not representative of PUA or game! Sounds like he was just a putz!
Mistral is an example of a guy with real game! He hit the nail on the head..sweet as it comes!
I’m about to turn 50. And I use everything I learned about game, PUA and frame everyday to keep my extremely hot live in 21 yo OLTR in check. a) to check her shit tests, b) to keep us fucking other hot young chicks. She loves to try and tell me how we are going to do this or not do that etc. Which I ignore and do whatever the fuck I want of course. Invaluable this stuff!
The worst part is listening to guys telling me how lucky I am to have found a girl like that and how their girls would never do it. Of course they won’t!! :/
LOL FYI blackdragon also recently technically ‘got hitched’
Remember, he bought a ring and such!
Huh? No I didn’t.
Roger, seriously, I think you should stick with defending monogamy and talking about waiting for 5 dinner dates before you have sex. I really don’t think this is the blog for you.
lol totally crushed him, you should have been an attorney or something :p
Hey mate, I appreciate that you wanted to use me as an example to further your point. But you don’t have the facts to my particular situation. Neil Strauss, Mystery, Paul Janka and more guys have gotten into serious relationships. Now the intimate details of how those relationships are constructed…why would they reveal those. Eg we might all have 5 side chicks or whatever you want to call them. I got married vs not because I wanted to show this particular lady that she was the best that I’d met, that I loved her, and that this relationship was special. I’m cool with part of me being traditional and part not.
On the other hand as far as I see you are not a public figure with your face everywhere. Correct me if I’m wrong. If you were you’d see that people quickly have wrong opinions about you all over.
I think there is loads more to say on each point. Eg when I say a woman who can put me in my place or stand up to me, it’s because I don’t want to be rewarded for taking the piss. I want her to bring the best out of me. It all comes from a strong place, but one where I am respectful of my lady.
Some dumbass wrote that I use “provider game”. Well PUAT didn’t make money before 2012 so I definitely wasn’t buying tables in London. We did have tons of top-end connections despite having no money, which was a result of social skills and was something that no one else on the scene managed in the UK aside from Adam Lyons. Now that I have a few million, how can I not be accused of using provider game? Anyway, being a man who is successful in all areas was my goal and the trend of PUAs who diss the rich guys are just sour because they are failing and will still be teaching 1on1s and making Youtube vids when they are 50.
Hi Richard. It shows courage and integrity to comment on a post like this. Most men wouldn’t do it; you deserve a lot of credit, and I mean that. As I said in the article, I have nothing personal against you whatsoever; it’s strictly a disagreement over certain lifestyle choices.
I understand that, and I understand that most of those guys are probably cheating, at least eventually.
The answer as to “why would they reveal those” is because they are selling a system to their audience (long-term sexual monogamy) that doesn’t work for men, and indeed harms men in the modern era.
When all of these men’s fans/followers see them get “monogamously” married, many of them think, “Wow! It works! I can do that too!” Then they get monogamous / traditionally married as well, then experience cheating, divorce, child custody battles, and so on. It’s not fair to their audience.
Instead, as examples for other men to follow, they should be honest, and say, “Yes, I’m getting married because I don’t want to be a 50 year-old pick-up artist, but of course I’ll be having sex with other women occasionally. That’s sustainable, long-term monogamy is not.”
By the way, this is exactly what I’m doing. I’m getting married too… but not traditionally, and not monogamous, and I’m telling everyone.
My picture is on all of my web sites, including this one, in the About Me page right here, and has been for many years. I operate all of my websites under my real name, Caleb Jones, and never hide my identity. Indeed, my other blog, accessible by a hard link above on this page, is called the “Caleb Jones Blog.”
I also run other companies that have nothing to do with women or dating, and the people I work with in these companies (the vast majority of them anyway) know I talk about these topics in a controversial way. They don’t care.
I am not as well known as you, and I don’t have videos yet (though I will next year), that much is true. But even when I do those, my messaging on this will not change. I’m not afraid of what other people think; I’m about teaching the truth.
As I’ve written about many times on this blog, the people in your life who really love you won’t give a shit about how you structure your personal life. And if a small percentage of complete strangers assume negative shit about you, then honestly, who cares? Fuck ’em. Outcome independence!
I agree 100%. I am respectful of my fiancé as well and I want her to make me a better man, as I clearly stated here. But that does not require traditional marriage, nor absolute sexual monogamy, nor pretending to do those things because my mom might not like it otherwise (which she doesn’t, but we still love each other and get along great).
Again, I appreciate you commenting here. Regardless of what you choose to do, I wish you and your lady the best.
If you want to get married because you’ve found the “one” that’s your choice but you’ve embraced the blue pill and yet your company is still pinging out spam emails about your ‘good mate X who is fat and ugly but gets loads of hot chicks every week with his amazing new system’.
People might have more respect if you changed your content to reflect your newfound life-style.
Your still making money in the same way that ‘50 year olds making Youtube vids’ are but at least they’re open about doing it.
Hey B D , long time reader i really want your thoughts as this post reminded me of it!
Grand Cardone a very succsesful real estate and business guy in Miami, hes extorverted and good looking for a 59 year old..
I watched this video and he has a podcast with his wife whos super pretty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZGQBbZrZE8
do you think hes serious? i beleive monogamy doesnt work but they look like they have no desire to cheat so what are you thoughts does grant nail young babes behind his wives back and does his wife prob take side young dick? i really want to know ur opinion on this!
any idea blackdragon for my comment thank you man !! <3
Seriously that guy and his wife are painful to watch. Imagine how much more fun he (both of them) could have if they weren’t monogamous.
You mean…most all of them? Yes its true that PUAs teach good stuff…to a fault. But when they do dumb things like La Ruina just recently did, or when they post fake infield videos that’s when their wisdom ends. This article explains it quite a bit better than myself:
https://strengthbysonny.com/2015/09/06/the-pua-industry-revealed-part-ii-the-main-concepts-pua-gets-wrong/
Now I’m not talking about old school PUAs from the early and mid 00s. Those individuals made sure their clientele knew basic social skills and had some semblance of a fulfilling life before they took even one class.
Today’s PUAs don’t care who you are, as long as you pay them. When RSD started doing this in 2014, I bailed. I was done with them.
The old guard PUAs would absolutely despise what is currently going on. Back then they wanted their students to not want their services again. Today’s PUAs are like “come on back! We’ve discovered a new trick!”
I’m pretty sure BD as well as La Runia (I saw his comment) would agree.
Now I’m not talking about old school PUAs from the early and mid 00s. Those individuals made sure their clientele knew basic social skills and had some semblance of a fulfilling life before they took even one class.
Today’s PUAs don’t care who you are, as long as you pay them. When RSD started doing this in 2014, I bailed. I was done with them.
The old guard PUAs would absolutely despise what is currently going on. Back then they wanted their students to not want their services
@Joelsuf
Sorry mate, not sure where you get your views from!?
Read “The Game” and you’ll see that Mystery & co were getting socially un-calibrated guys to their boot-camps as (shock, horror!) they are the sort of guys who can’t get women.
As for charging, it was never a charity as they’ve always done it. RSD have a reputation but as Marty has said, for a lot of guys they get results. I know experienced friends who took their classes and said it was the best money they ever spent, and these guys were banging hot chicks beforehand.
It’s all relative; for every guy who screams that its all a scam, there’s another one who say’s it’s life changing.
@joelsuf
So you post an article by some guy who’s trying to sell people his stuff based on dumping on PUA. I’m sure he’s really unbiased. He even told us himself he’s the only one giving us the truth on this stuff. HAHAHAHAHA…..
Article was on the 06/09/15. I did my RSD world summit on the 08/08/15 and bootcamp on the 18/09/15. None of anything in his article matches at all with my experience of RSD. They were awesome and changed my life a lot. I’m still very thankful I did those. Although I did meet guys on them that didn’t get it or weren’t doing what they were saying because they were morons or just didn’t get it.
I’m talking about real results. Life changing stuff in my own life. I know quite a few other real guys that I still associate with that had the same experience. As Neil said lots of guys have had amazing results from PUA, even the shit ones. If you haven’t maybe you need to look at yourself at bit! You seem very bitter and twisted about PUA in general.
As BD often says, good luck with that. I’ll be over here banging my hot 21yo and enjoying all the other benefits PUA training has given me.
https://strengthbysonny.com/2015/09/06/the-pua-industry-revealed-part-ii-the-main-concepts-pua-gets-wrong/
I just re-read this a bit slower with more attention. Seriously, this is the biggest load of horseshit I’ve ever read. This guy knows zero about real game or PUA. He’s not even close to talking about anything I’ve ever been told or read. Even sounds like he’s a typical chick who’s bitter about the idea of game.
Honestly Joelsuf if this is your idea of explaining your point. You obviously haven’t done any real PUA or you were too stupid to understand it properly.
He’s obviously a steroid monkey and then he says this. Are you fucking kidding me????
“Game is not some magical thing. It’s not a great equalizer in the world of dating. In fact, if we’re being completely honest here… money is the great equalizer.”
These were socially uncalibrated guys who were at least somewhat successful in some aspect. As Strauss says in that book, there weren’t many who were going there because they thought they could make their lives better just by getting more chicks. He saw that it was leading up to that and that’s why he left.
This is an accurate observation whether you know it or not. Even BD has argued this right here:
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2014/09/25/even-homeless-guys-get-laid-but-this-is-still-not-what-you-want/
PUAs back in the day would tell you to not just work on chick skills but work on everything else too and your chick skills will improve anyways. Nowadays PUAs say that even if you are broke you can get chicks and they use PUAism as a rationalization to remain massively poor and unsuccessful. It was not like this 15 years ago is all I’m saying. Maybe RSD has changed, I wouldn’t know. I haven’t viewed or read any of their materials since the Julien thing in late 2014. If you improved because of them, I’m glad and more power to you.
All things considered, I’m still arguing that PUAism was way better before the 2010s than after.
What? No he didn’t. That post is so far from backing up that statement its not funny. It even has this in bold in the middle of it. “You do not need money to get laid if you have strong game, outcome independence, and confidence, all of which you can learn and develop even if you’re starting from absolute zero.”
All the ones that I’ve read or seen, including RSD, still do.
RSD and all other PUA stuff I’ve seen does not teach this at all. This is a completely false statement. They may say you can’t use being broke as an excuse, just as BD did in his blog post you quoted. But this is usually a very minor part of what they teach.
So you haven’t done any of their programs or even looked at their stuff since 2014 but you know they are all crap because….”it was way better back in the day”.
What’s more. There is no such thing as “PUAism”. Even if you just looked at RSD each of the different instructors have way different styles and approach. Each of their programs are very different. Then if you look at other groups they are extremely different again in what they teach.
I have an extensive collection of stuff (programs, books, video, audio) from more than 10 different PUA style groups (including BD). Some dating back before 2010 and lots from after. If anything the general trend has been to focus more on holistic development of your complete life as a guy (health, financial, social skills, attitude etc) as well as specific technique with women.
The only thing they all seem to miss that BD has rightly pointed out many times is comprehensive long term relationship management. Although some of them do try and cover this. They just don’t do it anywhere near as well as BD does.
This is all BS get rid of the PUA crap out of your head,, Look good + talk to girls = get laid its simple.. a gym membership and getting in shape for you will help you more than any pua website or bootcamp
You have zero clue.
I’ve had a gym membership since I was 14. I’m about to turn 50. I’ve always been in shape. And I’ve always been good at talking to girls. In fact I’ve always been ok at picking up girls and I got laid a lot before I did any PUA.
But learning PUA sent my results to a whole different level. Its taken my life to a whole different level. Knowledge is power and applied it becomes a skill, in every area of life. Including women!
Based on your comment, every guy who is in shape and has lots of conversations with a women, will eventually get laid. Perhaps he will; laws of averages and all that!? However he will have had to speak to hundreds of girls and get blown out again and again and get so frustrated that if he finally does get laid (and that’s a big IF!) he’ll be so fucking grateful that he’ll beg the girl to stay with him. No doubt as well she’ll be some overweight girl who’s looking for a husband but he won’t care, as by that stage he’ll be so desperate, he’d marry a drag artist, if it means someone wants him.
Good pick up, cuts years off a socially un-calibrated guy’s learning curve and teaches him how to flirt, tease, pass shit tests, recognize subtle ioi’s, know when to push and when to pull etc… that a million of your ‘get in shape and talk to girls’ will never do. Most importantly it makes YOU the prize and gives you the confidence and knowledge that you don’t have to ‘settle’ but can approach hot girls that you want to bang, which is what all guys should strive for.
Well said Neil.
It amazes me that guys will get Golf lessons, cooking lessons, all sorts of other training, personal trainers, read all sorts of shit about getting jacked and exercise. But when it comes to women, oh no…nothing to see here…somehow you can’t learn a single thing about that. Maybe the secret is in those needles they put in their arses!! 😀
Good looking, jacked guys get laid all the time. Doesn’t mean they are any good at it or good with women. Getting laid is not the point. Even nerdy Beta’s get laid. Its being able to consistently get the type of girl you want, whenever you want and not getting oneitis and getting fucked over when you pull a really hot girl! Whole different ballgame!
I think it’s a combination of things. Guys are told from a young age that if you can’t chat up girls your something less than a man, so they struggle to accept that it’s not their fault as guys don’t talk about their fears or issues as again.. it’s not what ‘men’ do.
Even if they take boot camps or have coaching, they expect an immediate result again based on the fact that if they learn how to approach a girl, then she should always want to date him. They can’t accept that the results aren’t always immediate and that girls are emotional not practical beings and when they do struggle to get dates and lays, they either just give up or become bitter and rather than accept that they had unrealistic expectations, they blame pick-up; hence the rise of things like the Manosphere, PUA Hate and purple pill.
Which is exactly what Sonny was talking about in my linked article. “Game is nothing but 4 things”
1. Making sure you tons to offer to a chick whether that means you are good looking, have lots of money, etc.
2. Basic social skills
3. The ability to invite chicks places, flirt with chicks without getting a harassment charge, and make moves on chicks without getting a rape charge
4. Outcome independence.
This article, as well as Sonny’s (And BD’s) articles, literally give you all the tools necessary to be good with chicks. Everything else is up to you.
Accurate observation. tbh if you don’t know how to have conversations with people and don’t know how to invite them places, then you are less than human. I’ve had to look deep into the mirror and come to terms with this. Those who don’t do not deserve good things.
Which is retarded OBW. Being “macho” is extremely outcome dependent.
That’s because PUA Organizations actually say this. They actually say “if you take my bootcamp, you’ll be amazing with chicks after it.”
I went to an RSD Free Tour seminar six or so years ago. It wasn’t bad for the $20 that they charged me, and they said a lot of cool things. I actually had a lot of fun there. At the end, Owen wanted to keep me around to do their “hotseat” which is where you sit and watch their (sometimes fake, sometimes legit) infield footage the whole day. He did this to everyone in the room.
tbh, if RSD and others just did their 2-3 hour lectures, they would be way more legit. I’m not disliking their material (until 2014 when they started getting stupid and weird), but I am disliking how they conduct their business. No one should pay any more than a couple hundred to hang out with someone who is better with chicks than you (which is what a bootcamp is pretty much).
That’s just marketing. It’s the same as those crappy one foot long steppers/ab machines etc that they flog on QVC. You the know the spiel: “Buy the new XYZ and after only 10 minutes a day, you’ll see a massive difference” alongside two fitness models grinning away.
Anyone with a grain of common sense knows that a machine like that won’t do jack for your health as it’s a toy and that you need to have stuff like diet and lifestyle sorted, but you still get fat people buy them in droves as they think it’s a miracle product.
PUA’S make the same comments but any guy with common sense knows he has to make changes in his life; be it grooming, logistics, fashion, health before he even starts hitting the streets.
No one should pay any more than a couple hundred to hang out with someone who is better with chicks than you (which is what a bootcamp is pretty much).
Why? People would pay the same, if not a lot more, for tennis lessons or scuba diving courses or personal training sessions.
It goes back to what I said about guys thinking that to be good with women is a given right and that guys who teach dating skills should just do it for free or very little. They seem to think that websites, venue hire, video production, graphic design etc.. only cost 10 bucks so why charge!?
A boot camp won’t make you good with girls; all it is a door that’s opened for you. You have to step through it and take action. You’ll only get better by going out and chatting to girls over and over. As I said, guys think pua should be some Jedi mind tricks but all it really comes down to is you really wanting to change; 100 boot-camps won’t do that if you can’t make the effort to get up and go out and put in into practice.
Its definitely just marketing. But the product in the end is much more complex and beneficial. I agree that bootcamps are expensive and probably not the best bang for your buck if you just did them. The programs have way more depth and benefit if you apply them. Although the right bootcamp after you’ve read a lot and done a lot of practice yourself can help lift your game to new levels and show you nuance that you may not pick up on by yourself. As you said Neil like all skills a lot of the results come down to the individual guy and how they apply the learning. Some guys would rather be slack asses and blame everyone else for ripping them off rather than give things a red hot crack and take personal responsibility for their lives and results!
As much as Joelsuf wants to bag them, RSD and pretty much any PUA I’ve seen definitely don’t preach one bootcamp and you’ll be amazing with chicks (maybe apart from their ad videos). They actually preach ridiculous amounts of non-stop approaching and practicing in field week in week out.
Classic example of how (most) PUAs lack the sociological theory and actual understanding of inter-gender dynamics. They simply have a certain degreee of game, that’s all, and it’s the only thing that sets them apart from the usual AFC. Their frame will crush the moment they encounter “the one”, since they’ve never truly swallowed the red pill. They’ve been wearing a mask all the time, never actually internalizing the necessary, painful processes that come with it.