More Responses To Traditional Marriage Defenders
Several of you notified me of this Huffington Post article written by a married woman titled “36 Things I Know After 36 Years of Marriage.”
Let’s examine what she says based on facts and reality instead of feels. This should be fun.
1. If you think marriage would have been much easier with somebody else, you’re probably wrong.
If you’re talking about TMM, traditional monogamous marriage, where there is no legal separation of finances and absolute and forever sexual monogamy is expected by both partners, then yes, that’s right, the marriage won’t be easy with anyone else since humans were never designed to function that way for longer than about 2-3 years.
Any time you attempt do so something diametrically opposed to your core biology, it’s going to be very hard no matter what you do. (Try not going to the bathroom at all for 24 hours and you’ll see what I mean.) It doesn’t matter which other human you attempt it with.
Now, if you’re talking about a type of long-term pair-bonding that is much more congruent towards actual human biology (like OLTR Marriage), then no, it actually does make a difference regarding who you pair-bond with. If I had married a Dominant, high-drama bitch instead of a happy sweetheart like Pink Firefly, my marriage would be extremely hard.
2. Most marital problems are fixable. Really. Even the tough ones.
Incorrect. If your husband really wants to fuck someone else, that’s not “fixable.” Biology again. Ether you need to go let him get some pussy on the side (which I’m sure you won’t allow), or he’ll grit his teeth and suffer for the rest of his life (and then eventually and statistically cheat on you behind your back). Not fixable, unless you completely redefine what is allowed in your marriage (which means it isn’t traditional nor monogamous anymore).
As a matter of fact, the really tough problems are often the ones that have no fix. The fixable problems in a marriage are almost always the little things, like who sits where at the dining room table.
3. The D word (divorce) is a dangerous weapon. I suggest the F word instead: frustrated. Nobody’s heart will be broken if you say, “I’m so FRUSTRATED I could scream!”
Disagree completely. Both parties need to know that the other person can and will end the marriage if happiness can’t be achieved. Otherwise, the other person has zero motivation to play nice. A woman is pleasant and sexual to the degree to which she knows you can and will leave her. This applies to men as well, so I’m being fair here.
4. The term wedded bliss should be stricken from every couple’s vocabulary. Marriage is wonderful in many ways, but expecting bliss makes the inevitable rough times seem like a problem when they’re simply part of the deal.
Obviously I agree. But if your marriage is hard, particularly over a prolonged period of time, then you’re with the wrong person and need to get divorced immediately. (Then ask yourself some very hard questions about why you were so wrong about picking that person as a long-term partner. Remember, everything in your life is your fault.)
5. That bit about how your partner won’t change: Wrong. My husband and I met in our early 20s. If we’d both stayed just as we were, we’d still be two naïve kids, stubbornly insisting we have to have things our way, thinking marriage shouldn’t be as challenging as it is.
People don’t change… but the exception to that is that people can change if given many decades. I believe you when you say your husband has changed over the last 36 years. 36 years is a very long time. That’s older than many guys reading these words have been alive.
The problem is when people get married expecting the other person to change soon, like as soon as they move in or as soon as a baby comes or whatever. Sorry, dumbass. They won’t.
They either won’t change ever (in any large way), or will change but it will take 30 or 40 friggin’ years. The problem is that statistically your marriage won’t last that long, making this entire argument moot.
6. Marriage doesn’t get good or stay good all on its own.
Factually incorrect. If it’s a traditional, monogamous marriage, at around the three year-mark, the marriage will (statistically) start getting worse, even if just a little, all on its own, even if you’re doing everything right and you’re the perfect spouse. Biology again. Sorry.
If you don’t believe me just try it and you’ll see. Move in with a woman in a monogamous relationship (legally married or not isn’t relevant), and wait at least three years. You’ll be surprised at what happens.
But I won’t.
7. Every one of us is, in our own way, difficult to live with. Beginning to work on even one of your own problem behaviors will make a big difference in the quality of your marriage. Added bonus: your spouse will greatly appreciate it!
Correct. (Seven items in and we finally found one that’s actually accurate to the real world. Let’s see how the rest go…)
I’m certainly not easy to live with and I even warned Pink Firefly about this prior to her moving in. (She is easier to live with than me.) Much of this kind of conflict can be avoided by certain living logistics, like having separate blankets in bed, separate bathrooms, separate closets, even separate kitchens (I’m still working on that last one).
8. People who are unhappily married sometimes think marriage is the problem — that marriage is unnatural or outdated or impossible to do well. There’s not a third entity called marriage. Everything that goes on between you is your creation. Each of you playing your part. Why not create something worthwhile?
Absolutely meaningless Disney horseshit. Yes, there is indeed a third entity called “marriage” that was invented by authoritarian Christians during the Dark Ages. And yes, it is the problem.
9. Marriage is a “learn on the job” proposition. None of us comes into it with all the skills we need for success. When the going gets rough it’s most often a sign that we need some new skills — not a sign that we need a new spouse.
True. But there are times you do need a new spouse. That was certainly the case the first time I was married; I was a young idiot and married someone I was not compatible with, under a structure that was never designed to work long-term (traditional, monogamous marriage).
There are also times where you shouldn’t be married at all. There are indeed some men and women who should never live with another human in a romantic context, ever.
10. Struggle in marriage is not only inevitable, it’s necessary. None of us can grow a strong and healthy relationship without having to face and resolve difficult issues.
Partially true. This only applies to the initial first few months, perhaps year or so, when you’re still getting accustomed to A) living with another human being if you’ve never done it before and B) living with someone you’re in love with, sexual with, and with whom you’ve made commitments, which is very different than living with a roommate.
After this adjustment phase, there is never a “need” for “difficult times.” That’s Disney bullshit again.
Problems in a relationship don’t make you stronger. They just piss you off.
11. Even the best marriage can’t make up for the difficulties we faced growing up. We all come with childhood injuries. Thinking your spouse can make you feel safe and secure when you’re wobbly inside is too much to ask. The sooner (and more effectively) you deal with your “stuff,” the healthier and more satisfying your marriage will be.
Very true. Perhaps the truest thing she’s said.
12. Love grows as much from the challenges we face and surmount together as from the delights that we share.
This is a partial repeat of number ten and it’s total bullshit. Drama and problems in a serious relationship do not make love grow. They actually damage both love and trust.
13. Marriage is a long negotiation about how two people are going to run things. Money. Intimacy. Parenting. Chores. You can battle, or you can collaborate. Collaboration is a lot more rewarding.
No, it’s not a long negotiation; it’s a very short one. Again, the negotiation only needs to take place during the initial phase of the live-in portion of the relationship. That’s it. If you’re still arguing/negotiating with your spouse about chores after you’ve been living together for four years, then you’re both either idiots or drama queens.
14. Even the most stubborn among us can learn how to yield. Trust me on this one.
Correct, that’s why Alpha Males who go monogamous become beta males after a few years. I’ve seen it happen scores of times, including with my own father.
She thinks this is a good thing. It’s actually a dreadful thing, and one of the biggest causes of divorce and marital unhappiness.
15. Most of your spouse’s upsets and frustrations aren’t about you — but some are. The sooner you figure out which is which, the better off you’ll be.
True.
16. During hard times, commitment may be your saving grace. The fact that, way back when, you said “‘till death do us part” may be the only reason you keep two feet in long enough to fix what’s not going well. And that’s reason enough.
That only applies to pussies, beta males, and high-drama men. I love Pink Firefly more than I have ever loved a woman, and I want to stay with her the rest of my life, and I’ve made some commitments to her, but if she ever strikes me physically in anger, or if she ever demands I stop having sex with other women, or if she ever demands I work less hours or compromise on my Mission in any way, then, poof! Our marriage is over, perhaps immediately. It doesn’t matter how much I love her nor what my long-term objectives for the relationship were or are. My goal is long-term consistent happiness, not to be chained to a shitty or even mediocre marriage for the rest of my life.
The goal is not to be married forever. The goal is to be married as long as possible (possibly forever) while you’re both still happy.
17. Marriage can make you a better person or a worse person. It’s your choice.
True. Just remember that TMM isn’t compatible with human biology, regardless of your intentions.
18. Complaints and criticisms aren’t the same thing as requests for change.
If you want to be long-term happy in a marriage, you’ve got two choices:
1. If you dislike something regarding the other person and it’s causing a real problem, come to that person in a calm tone of voice and in the spirit of collaboration between two mature adults and work it out, knowing you may not get 100% of what you want and accepting that as best you can.
or
2. Suck it up and keep your fucking complaints to yourself.
Complaining is unacceptable. So are demands for the other person to change.
19. Discouragement is one of the greatest threats to marriage. I’ve seen struggling couples give up on marriages that could quite likely be saved had they been given the proper guidance and encouragement to hang in there and fix things.
I agree in general, but again, the goal is not to maintain a shitty or mediocre marriage. Maintaining a marriage is not the objective. Happiness is.
20. Thinking you have a 50-50 chance of ending up divorced makes it seem like a coin toss. It’s not. There are some behaviors that nearly guarantee failure. We all know what they are. It’s a good idea to not do them.
Incorrect! You can not control the actions, behaviors, and desires of the other person. You can only control yourself (and even that is difficult). So even if you are the perfect spouse forever (and you’re not and you won’t be), your odds of divorce are still sky-high, because you’re reliant on that other person, whom you can’t control, to play nice for the next 50+ years straight.
Good fucking luck.
21. Being nice helps.
I think she’s running out of ideas to make her list of 36 items.
22. Saying thank-you does, too.
Confirmed, she’s running out of ideas.
23. The happier I am about my own life, the less irritated I am about my husband’s irritating behaviors.
Very true. That is exactly why happiness must always be the goal. If you have a great marriage to a great woman and you still dislike your life, your marriage won’t work. If you’re the perfect husband in every way but married to a woman who is unhappy with the rest of her life, your marriage won’t work.
HAPPINESS FIRST. MARRIAGE SECOND. Societal Programming teaches the opposite.
24. A good marriage will have its share of conflict, frustration, boredom, unresolvable arguments, slammed doors and nights where one person sleeps on the couch. The key is to have enough good things to balance them out.
Wrong. A marriage that involves these things on a regular basis is not a good marriage and should be terminated immediately.
Now, yes, everyone can have a bad day every once in a while. If your wife is a bitch two or three times a year, then okay, fine, be a man and suck it up. You can be a dick sometimes too. But if she’s a bitch all the time? No. Time to end it.
25. It’s not always easy to keep your heart open.
Very true. I’ve had this problem myself. Even tough, asshole INTJs need to chill out sometimes and just feel.
26. Love matters. While love doesn’t heal all, even (especially) during hard times, love is a touchstone, a reminder of why you got together in the first place.
More Disney BS.
Love is not the answer. Happiness is. Nothing justifies unhappiness, including love. More than once in my life have I had to end a relationship with someone I loved because she was not making me happy. HAPPINESS FIRST. MARRIAGE SECOND.
27. Marriage is not an antidote for loneliness. While marriage provides companionship, closeness and connection are not a constant. Sometimes we’re in sync. Sometimes we’re not. It’s important to be able to soothe and comfort yourself when need be.
Correct. Everyone must first have the ability to be alone and be happy while alone before attempting any serious, long-term, live-in relationship. I talk about this in my primary book.
28. It’s easy to get into a rut when you’re with the same person, year after year. Sex. Vacations. Dinner. How you spend Saturday night. Change things. Add some spice.
THAT’S EXACTLY WHY YOUR MARRIAGE SHOULD NOT BE MONOGAMOUS. I get all the “spice” I want in my marriage; it’s called having three or four hot, young FBs on the side at all times. It works great.
I am 100% convinced that if all marriages allowed both parties to go get a little discreet, condomed, meaningless but enjoyable sex on the side when needed, the overall divorce rate would go down, not up.
Too bad society is too needy and stuck up their own asses to give it a try on a mass scale.
Oh well. Not that I care.
29. Most good marriages have one person who plays the role of the relationship “guardian”: The person who brings up difficult subjects. The person who stays hopeful in hard times. The person who acts as a steadying influence when one or both of you are getting worked-up. In an ideal world, that role would be shared. In the real world it only takes one.
Yeah, this is more or less true in most marriages, including mine (I am this person).
30. One of the best things to do in the midst of a fight is to stop fighting. Take a break. Cool down. Come back to it later. Hotheads are terrible problem solvers.
Correct, very much so. The problem is this is very hard to do for most women and Alpha Male 1.0s, both of whom have a tendency towards drama instead of away from it.
31. Some conflicts cannot be resolved by compromise. (We can’t have half a child or buy half a vacation home). When there’s no such thing as “meeting halfway,” the solution becomes a matter of generosity, where one person says “yes” to their second choice and the other acknowledges that as a gift.
This is accurate. Now here’s how to handle it:
When the issue is a small one (where you have dinner that night), then just give it to her and move on. Who gives a fuck? Focus on the big things, not the little ones. You’ll be a happier man that way.
When the issue is a large one (“Stop having sex with other women!”), stand your ground. Be nice, be flexible, but never give in. Example: “I’m always going to have sex with other women, for the rest of my life, period, end of story, and if that’s going to make you really angry, you need to divorce me immediately because this isn’t going to work. But that being said, I love you and I’m willing to be flexible about this and work with you on it. Is there anything I can do regarding sex on the side that would make you more comfortable?”
32. Fights are never about content. Where we store the dish soap, whether it’s quicker to take the frontage road or the freeway, whether it’s horribly rude not to answer a text — none of these are worth getting ourselves all in a twist. Our upsets are about the larger meaning we make of that unanswered text, that resistance to influence, that refusal to take seriously the things we request. It’s really helpful to accurately name what’s setting you off.
Absolutely correct. It’s up to YOU to be outcome independent so these things won’t bother you. Read my book on how to do this.
33. There’s a big difference between being happily married and living happily ever after. None of us are happy 24/7. Thank goodness we don’t need to be.
I already addressed this above. Unusual, reasonably rare unhappiness in a marriage is fine. Regular unhappiness in a marriage is unacceptable and you should just get divorced if that problem can’t be resolved.
34. When you think to yourself, I really shouldn’t say this, you’re probably right.
Correct. This is particularly true for blunt, outcome independent Alpha Male 2.0 types like yours truly.
35. Learning how to make up is essential since you’ll never, ever, get to a point where neither one of you screws up.
Okay, but the goal is to not have to make up very often because drama or conflict in your marriage is so rare.
36. One of you has to go first. Apologize first. Be vulnerable first. Yield first. Forgive first. Why not let that person be you?
I generally agree. If you’re at fault (and many times you will be), apologize and do so quickly. If you’re not at fault but the issue is a minor one (and almost always it will be), just blow it off and move on. Real arguments should be saved for big, giant, important issues, which again, should be very, very rare.
So on the overall, she had a few accurate observations mixed in with a shitload of Disney bullshit and “drama is healthy / being unhappy a lot is okay” Societal Programming.
About what I expected.
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Amazing post as usual. Everything I read was awesome. But I couldn’t read past item 8. As good as everything you write is. This stuff is just so obvious now. I can’t even handle you explaining it so well anymore. Its a bit like Rollo and The Rational Male. I can’t read his stuff anymore as well as its just so obvious now.
I talk about this stuff all the time with my Brother now. Once you see the matrix it just becomes so obvious its everywhere. Life is so much better now with the knowledge of reading so many of these posts. It almost becomes like reading this over and over “Don’t jump out of the 5th story window…gravity will fuck you up!” Sort of thing. haha
Thank you so much for this stuff! Its pure gold!! 🙂
Holy crap. I almost got a stroke from reading this article. Not because of BD’s responses, but because of the insane amount of TMM-splaining.
How peoples still pursue TMM is beyond me. I’d go as far as to say that if it wasn’t for TMM being such a de facto method of pursuing relationships, most problems we’re dealing with now would go away.
But nah. In drama we trust.
The social programming was strong on that one!! A little too strong!! Like vomit level!!
People need to justify their life choices.
Who wants to realize being wrong after 30+ years?
TL;DR
Why are men soliciting a Blackdragon response to a female penned, mainstream Point-of-View (POV) article?
I believe that men would see the light, and perhaps women too, if our choir of united voices simply lauded the virtues of A20 living and non-monogamy rather than responding to critics and traditional POV’s. I know that pointing out the fallacies of the points in the HuPo article is easy fodder for a blog post. However 36 rebuttal points restating the obvious conclusions chronicled in the massive body of work both here and on calebjonesblog.com is merely a rehashing of A20 knowledge. I feel like I’m being critical here, but I’d prefer to see content that is advancing our A20 life and lifestyle rather than responding to men who’ve see yet another standard American POV article and feel like BD should chime in on the endless stream of such old-school mass-think.
I would hope that men who are in the manaposhere, for lack of a better term, and who are here because they are pursing the A20 life would simply summarily dismiss the mass of mainstream op-ed pieces offered on mainstream sites with the quiet confidence that they are flawed, false, and not helpful to men in general. I think our time is better spent finding like-minded men to share our new found freedoms with than to continue to rebut articles such as this, which is a sort of preaching to the choir if the responses are only posted here, for the choir of real men to read.
I wouldn’t say she is “wrong”. Wrong is not the correct word for it. She seems to be happily married and enjoying it (by the sound of it).
I think even if she met BlackDragon and completely agreed that what he is saying makes sense, she would still refuse that lifestyle. Not only because of societal programming, but also because it is simply not for everyone.
Brilliant! It seems to me that having separate kitchens would require you each to be more independent in a lot of ways while also keeping things from feeling just the same as a TMM. I don’t currently like the idea of OLTR for myself, but if I ever choose that path later, I think separate kitchens would be a must.
Why would you want separate kitchens? Don’t you enjoy cooking together? One of my favorite activities, personally.
Hey Black Dragon,
Have you seen the recent coverage of non monogamy in mainstream talkshows ?
Thought you might find it interesting. We are headed towards non monogamy being normalized faster than I expected !
This is a clip from The View just a month ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t-djYGXCKI .
Here is a clip 8 months ago from Megyn Kelly’s show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgMQAg60Uxw
^ Forgot to add.
yeah the commentators are very anti open relationships but the very fact people are suddenly having conversations about them in large mainstream outlets recently is evidence that society is reluctantly coming to grips with the fact that non monogamy is the inevitable norm of the future.
It’s obvious to you and me. It’s not obvious to the vast majority of humans out there in the world.
Because of the Six Societal Values: conformity, perceived security, social validation, emotional validation, control over others, and not being alone. These things beat logic and happiness almost every time.
As I’ve explained several times before, occasionally these blog posts are required to help A) bring new traffic to the blog and B) to help new readers snap out of their daze.
As I said to the commenter above, I realize that you already get this stuff and that these blog posts seem like fluff or repeat, but there is a strong percentage of the audience who doesn’t think this at all, and need help just as much as you do.
This is not a blog just for advanced Alpha 2.0 aspirants only. This is also a blog for total Alpha 2.0 newbies. You must share this blog with them. (And if you want something you don’t have to share with them, join my SMIC program.)
PF and I are looking for a new house to live in for the next 2 years before we move out of the USA, and a separate sink / kitchenette in the office area for me is a strong desire (if not requirement). Throw in a microwave plus a small refrigerator, and boom, there’s your 2nd kitchen.
Please don’t be purposely obtuse. You can still cook together if your house has two kitchens.
Vsmilex – This is your final warning. If you keep posting a non-stop stream of very stupid disagree-just-to-disagree comments, you will be banned from this blog. Thanks.
Oh yes. As I’ve been saying for years, nonmonogamy will become more and more the norm as time goes on. Getting women into these relationships is far easier today than it ever was 10 years ago.
Nonmonogamy will continue to enrage male social conservatives and high-ASD females over age 33, yes. But it will still grow and still happen despite their objections.
On 31,could you give examples of things that women requested,that were not insane,in order to get comfortable with you fucking other women on the side?
Always use condoms. Don’t fuck my friends / family members. Don’t bring women over to the house. Don’t fuck too many women. Don’t tell my mom. Don’t blab about it on Facebook. Stuff like that.
Could you make an article about different levels of nonmonogamy relationship mastery,like the one you did with 3 levels of dating mastery.
by alone, does this mean just “not in a serious relationship” context? or does it also mean, no roommate or fb/mltrs etc?
I must add that I get this totally, but maybe being that I’ve only been into non-monogamy less than 5 years and read BD about a year, but as time goes by, I lose some of the basics on accident and literally go back and re-read his books to refresh myself and get my game back on track. I start to forget some things and replace them with common sense beta moves sometimes and so then need to refresh, re-read, and get my mind back right. I think it is great to have this stuff pounded in to our heads repeatedly so I’m all for it. I suppose some people are more rock-solid on this stuff than me and don’t need things repeated or rehashed, but honestly I think if I stopped reading and learning in the manosphere, I’d begin to lose some of this stuff and fall in to some old beta habits. I think that’s sad, but the only way I can think of preventing that from happening is to keep reading this stuff and keeping it fresh in my mind.
PrepZ writes:
Why are men soliciting a Blackdragon response to a female penned, mainstream Point-of-View (POV) article?
Good question! And the answer is for the insight. For example…
This is gold:
I’ve often wondered why men always complain how that sweet princess you married turned into a fat piranha in yoga pants *seemingly overnight* when you married her.
Well, once she had a hook into you, and treated you like shit and you didn’t bail, what did you expect?
This explains the betaization and her growing disgustment with you. Of course she doesn’t respect you! You don’t respect yourself when take her shit!
Come for the TMM defense article, stay for the wisdom.
Funny enough I’ve talked to many people that have been married a longer time (5, 10+ years or more which coincides with BD’s point about the 3-5 year mark) and they do reluctantly agree that long term monogamy sucks, they’re bored, don’t have sex anymore, just stick around because of kids, etc… Me being more open about being, well, open, has given them the courage to tell me these things since they know I won’t judge it. And it’s mostly women saying these things so you tradcon Alpha 1.0 guys that think your princess would NEVER want to fuck another man, you’re dreaming.
And by all (Facebook) accounts, they appear to be very happy loving families when in fact there is massive turmoil, cheating and resentment. I personally know many of these stories and laugh when I see people remark things like “you 2 make me believe in love, my fav couple ever!!!”. If they knew the truth, they’d recoil in horror. To your point, they value the social validation over their own happiness. They often don’t want to give up their cushy life to pursue what they truly want since it’s hard work up front.
Fair enough.
It was a simple question, rather than a disagreement (no idea what you are referring to, by the way). I have seriously never heard of a house where spouses have separate kitchens… This concept seems rather preposterous…
I was reading a Rollo essay these days that talked about how important, in an evolutional level, it is for the man (especially an alpha) to know that the woman he is investing in pair bonding is not actually carrying the babies of other men. Because there were really no way for the ancient man to know this, and because the high investment on raising offspring. I kept thinking about BDs Alpha 2.0 lifestyle and how I probably will never be able to do it because I wont be happy on a LTR where the girl can have sex on the side (OLTR). Maybe its purely evolutional and not my fault LOL.
That being said, I’m diving soon in many of those LTR issues. I wont get married but I will get a serious girlfriend and commit, and given my experience now and how much I know her (been my MLTR for over a year now) and how much I know about the redpill, it will probably last for a while.
I did pretty well on my first marriage despite being a needy alpha with barely none red pill awereness, and probably got lucky cause she didnt want any of my money even tho I have much more money than her (she wasnt american, maybe thats why. people do say canadians are nice people).
I guess that the next try, after years of outcome independence, red pill studies, and handling of several MLTRs from whom I learnt a lot, I can extract as much happiness from it for a good amount of time, and break it up in a not so traumatizing way if/when it turns sour.
It will be an interesting social experience… wish me luck
Rollo sells fear, stokes anxiety, and all of that thrives in outcome dependency that is rampant with divorced guys still in the anger phase.
It’s polluting your mind full of angry Alpha 1.0 anxiety laced social programming that, if followed, puts you in another prison with slightly different gray paint from the last one.
It’s a crying shame. He’s actively hurting men, making a profit at it, and claiming to be the messiah at the same time he plays on victim hood of men at the hands of feminism.
Its not her fault she’s a girl and acts like one! It’s your fault that you don’t treat them like they are. People treat you exactly like you allow them to. His whole shtick is 100% pure buffer, letting men off the hook for what they were 100% doing to themselves.
Ask yourself if you want to make excuses and blame someone and stay angry, or do you want to take control over your life and do something about it?
Nice to see someone agree with me on Tomassi. I’ve seen right through his nonsense, and to me is just another brand of manosphere collectivist trash. Not impressed.
Funny how this woman who obviously wrote this article made NO Mention of a Pre-Nup?
I’m sure she came out to write this BS because she is miserable and is trying to justify her wasted years.
This is confirmed by 21 and 22. She is not getting much sex.
how do you get so good at identifying when people are trying to mess with you and shut it down? I want this skill in and out all of my key life areas.
Because in most municipalities they are uninforcable. If you live in a area where they are, if she wants to void it all she has to do is leave you and move to somewhere they aren’t, establish residency, and file.
This is the only place where I vigorously disagree with BD. Prenuptial agreements do not work if she wants to fight.
What does solve it – 100%, every time – is not getting married. Ever.
Nothing else indemnifies you better than not singing those contracts.
Simple, you draw a firm boundary about letting people F with you and enforce it.
People will almost always treat you just as bad as you let them, and no better.
Yes it is! She is wrong!
Dear god! You have no concept of seeing through the matrix, do you?
By the sound of it, she is in a miserable marriage. Otherwise, she wouldn’t feel the need to write this self-validating drivel! Also, she has indicated throughout her entire commentary that her marriage has been filled with fights, drama, and heartache. Sounds like fun! Open your eyes!
It’s not for everyone because most people don’t want happiness.
Are you serious?
Have you even read any of BD’s books? Are you not even familiar with the concept of “share everything, but co-own nothing?”
If she shares your kitchen, she will clean up the mess, because it’s yours and she doesn’t want to mess it up, since she’s a guest. But if you co-own the kitchen, you have entered a Communist arrangement, resulting in “irreconcilable differences” and pure hell.
This isn’t rocket science dude! The personality of the owner always dominates and the guest who shares must submit. If you’re both the owners, you have a nuclear war on your hands! Duh!
I’m guessing he’s referring to the fact that your ideas, thoughts, and behaviors on this blog have been consistently blue pill and steeped in societal programming. You have no concept of the secret society. If only you knew how many women I have banged who lived in “very happy marriages” by all outward appearances, you would throw up!
Your problem is that you have zero clue what is just below the surface and you take people’s fake image at face value, thus surrounding yourself in a comfortable cocoon of matrix-produced lies!
Everything red pill sounds rather preposterous to you! You think we’re all weirdos!
Seriously man, you don’t belong here. Get yourself a happy conservative Disney wife and live the dream, while she fucks other men on the side and you live out your days in blissful ignorance and share on Facebook what a “happy marriage” you have. It’s the best path for you!
Hey BD,
We all know you rightly point out that legal marriage is a completely terrible idea in the western world.
Though I have not heard you mention the monogamous couples that have some sort of co habitation agreement and keep their finances separate.
We may disagree with the monogamy part but we have to admit that is still a very workable relationship model that avoids the disastrous effects of divorce after a traditional legal marriage.
Unless you are in one of those states that recognizes common law marriage, and you might be just as screwed.
Luckiky in California (where prenups and cohabitation agreements aren’t legal) they don’t recognize common law marriage or palimony either.
Dont over complicate things! Just don’t marry them, or commingle funds, or sign a joint lease. By avoiding these acts, you not only don’t have divorce or legal drama if it doesn’t work out (because there are no legal contacts to unwind), you also communicate that she better treat you right else you are gonna bolt.
Don’t give her any leverage to fuck with your life after she leaves you (and statistics say that’s gonna happen).
Sorry for the OT, but if you want to read a mega slap-down of Rollo, take a look here: If you respect Rollo Tomassi you have been brainwashed into accepting total loserdome for the rest of your life.
I’m not sure it’s that OT.
I followed RM and a couple of other sphere types on Twitter. Someone brought up Jung and MBTI and Rollo pounced, claiming it to be completely subjective; and even if it wasn’t, it was in the service of the “feminine primacy”. And as proof, he posted a cite to an Amazon book forward.
So, I read the cite. Which, big surprise, in plain English, was the exact opposite. So I highlighted the text, took a screenshot, posted the picture, and tweeted back his cite clearly claimed the opposite of what he was claimed, and asked if he had a comment?
So, Rollo blocksme rather than respond, or apologize to the first guy he attacked, or whatever.
okay….
Look, I’m not without fault and I make a ton of mistakes. But this guy can’t be bothered to find objective cites that back up his position. He’s not to be challenged, even when he’s amateurishly wrong with his own work.
Its a free country, follow that dolt if you want. Just don’t expect it to fix anything. Most people just want to be angry and validated anyway, he’s probably perfect for the masses.
Looking back at when I read him and that drivel made sense, I cannot fathom how angry I was. So mad I couldn’t see straight because women are gonna act like women. I was such a fool.
The two best points for me are
1) happiness first, marriage second
2) if she is unhappy with her life, you can’t have a happy marriage
That second one has been difficult for me in past relationships. If your OLTR is unhappy with the rest of her life, what should you do? Just end the relationship? Offer help in getting her shit together? Take a break?
and
and
finally,
—
Recently, many people observes that Rollo Tomassi has changed his “direction of preach”, though actually if you look more its probably has already begin since at his first public appearance(around 2015, and at personal level I can feel his change of tone around 2016, at election times). Particularly now, he and his “RED MEN” group has turned into echo-chamber woman-hating circle-jerk. Not counting his involvement on 21 Conv with Anthony.*
Even-though I’ve always recommend** that ALL men must learn about “Red Pill” Truth, I also warning them to NOT being trapped in the so-called “Red Pill Rage” phase for eternity.
*) I was a devoted 21C member start from its invention, now it has become poisoned with full of RP guys from Rollo-Brotherhood.
**) To this day, I still recommend people to read Rollo’s first two book and his writing on blog(probably pre-2013/2014), even before they want to read any of BD’s material.
Look up a definition of “wrong” in the dictionary.
Didn’t sound miserable to me. Either way, we don’t know nothing about her, her marriage, or her life in general. Let’s not scoop down to meaningless speculations.
Some people don’t mind all these things. Have you ever considered that?
Happiness is a very subjective term. What works for you, doesn’t work for others. Don’t be so rash in your conclusions.
It’s up to both of you to keep it clean.
You must be smoking some good stuff… Send some my way, please.
They are steeped in common sense. Having separate kitchens is not only pointless (still haven’t gotten an answer from BD with rationale for it), but must be also a rather costly enterprise.
Seriously. Send me some of that stuff.
You don’t have any idea of who I am, what I do and what my personality is. You seem to be jumping to conclusions a lot.
Not at all. There are definitely some interesting characters who border on extreme, but in general, plenty of normal people here. I agree with some things and disagree with other things. It’s not a religion, right?
Sorry if my presence makes you uneasy in your “secret society”. Shit happens.
I’m not talking sides here, but:
tIt’s up to both of you to keep it clean.
I was married to the same woman for 20 years, and it’s painfully obvious you’ve never lived with a woman other then your mom. Because that’s not how it works.
If you want to go live that life, fantastic, and I support your decision. In any event, please stop trolling this blog. Some of us have lived that life, don’t wanna go back, and are insulted by your gaslighting.
No idea how it worked in your house, but that’s the way it’s done in my house.
Just because my opinion differs from yours, doesn’t make me a troll.
Am I telling anyone how to live their lives? If you get insulted so easily, it might be a sign you need to work on your outcome independence.
Again if you look around you with a different set of eyes than what SP tells you, you will see that people ARE miserable in their marriage eventually. Even the ones that you truly think are happy. I’ve had many relatives, friends who looked very happy in their marriage and then all of a sudden the bomb dropped. As BD says many times after the 3 year mark TMM becomes boring, predictable and something like a chore. They look happy to you because that’s all they know and they don’t know how to achieve true happiness. They believe what SP tells them and they go along with it.
Even the ones who last 10 or 15 or 20 or 30 years, they have a marriage full of drama, sporadic sex(even months/years) and crazy stress. If you think that’s happy just to have family then follow the path. Learn and pay later when it will be too late.
The people who are “happy” in TMM, are the people with low sex drive(and most of the time ugly people that do not have options). The rest are just kidding themselves.
Can’t this happen to anyone, regardless of their lifestyle? People have masks, that’s a given. You will never truly see what’s going on inside their head. I remember reading about the creator of MineCraft who became crazy rich after the release of the game and got incredibly depressed and unhappy as a result.
I am not defending TMM in any way. I consider it to be really weird that people are obsessing so much about it. The concept is severely flawed. However, all I am saying is, Alpha 2.0 lifestyle doesn’t necessarily guarantee happiness either. Just as millions of dollars don’t.
Where did I say you were telling anyone how to live? Nice straw man bro. Further, where did I tell anyone else how to live?
I’m not insulted, but you twisting my words is just more low grade trolling.
C Lo, he might be a troll, but you got caught in the troll snare then:
Which is it? Did he insult you or not?
I cant do marriage or even living with a woman period. But that’s just me. I don’t know how guys can even tolerate it. I get restless leg syndrome and IBS just thinking about it. I can barely fuck the same woman for more than 2-3 weeks before I’m gnawing my arm off to get away. The pressure to have sex with the same woman over and over again. I could be fucking every hooters girl in town and it won’t matter. that isn’t going to change the fact that I don’t want to fuck her.. Her: Honey come to bed and fuck me for 4 hours until I cum (because they’re thinking about other shit while you work your ass off). Me: In a minute I’m watching the game.. Her:You don’t love me or you’re not attracted to me anymore!!! You can say you wont allow this but that’s naive. Like believing you can break a dog of doing dog shit like barking. Then what are you going to do when they don’t? evict them? Divorce them? That’s drama I don’t need. They will eventually do women shit and drive you insane with it. You can’t control or train a woman out doing women shit that come from their emotions and emotional swings. To each his own. Maybe I’ll change later on but for now.. have fun with that… married people. TMM or Non
About the comment on Rollo Tomassi and monogamy: he’s right and wrong. He’s right that mate guarding behavior makes evolutionary sense, he’s wrong that it’s an iron-clad rule that you can’t overcome and be happy. So yeah, if you try to hide behind it to justify your clinging to monogamy, you’re mostly just being lazy.
It doesn’t because not everybody can get there. But if you are focused in making it happen it does because a) You have freedom to do whatever you want to do b) You can fuck and be in a relationship with as many as women you want(and hot ones too) in the same period of time and barring some time management issues that’s not something that makes you unhappy. c) You can travel whenever the fuck you want as long as you want without checking with anyone. d) You can pair bond if you want and you will be far more happy than anyone attempting TMM because she already knows who you are and that you won’t change and she can’t mess around with you. e) you can focus on making money without paying the crazy bills of the TMM(who are mostly set by the wife and her stupid expenses). f) Not to mention the extreme attraction women in your life have for you even in prolonged period, something that does not happen in TMM after some time.
And for the people that are having a 2.0 lifestyle their life is far far far more happy and free than anyone attempting the SP way of life and the TMM. So again if i had to compare two lifestyles the 2.0 is miles better than the beta way(or even 1.0) however you want to look at it.
Separate kitchens a good start. Separate houses even better.
Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.
That’s still monogamy, thus it will not work.
That’s only true if you don’t mind moving in and moving out with women for the rest of your life. And I already addressed that here.
Read objection #33 here.
(And I generally like Rollo. Just because I have some disagreements with someone doesn’t mean I can’t like the person. I know that’s an alien concept these days.)
We don’t disagree. In most municipalities they are unenforceable. Guys in those regions shouldn’t get legally married, or if they do, they’ll need to spend a decent amount of money offshoring their assets with international trusts and other mechanisms to protect themselves (which, frankly, most men getting legally married will not bother to do because it’s “too much work” or whatever).
Offer her help, give her a little time to see if she takes that help and improves her happiness (because only she can do this), end the relationship if she still doesn’t.
That is not an argument. Nor is anyone arguing otherwise.
As I said, it seems like the only reason you’re commenting on this blog is to disagree just to disagree.
A poor choice of words on my part to describe someone else being argumentative for the sake of arguing. Guilty.
Societal Programming is a hell of a drug.
Yep. It takes away a shitload of leverage on her part and puts her on notice you aren’t going to be controlled. And leaves the soft next as a tool that you can use. Plus you get some peace and quiet.
Thats kinda how I see it.
When I was married, if you asked me my thoughts on the subject, I’d have told you I was so happy to be married, have zero sex the last couple of years, be bitched at constantly, treated as a slave and a wallet, all the while greatful because “that’s what you have to do to make things work”. And I’d have been honest when I said it.
And I was such a fool. I wouldn’t let anyone else treat me like that under any other circumstances. I guess you aren’t a prisoner if you don’t realize you are in a prison.
My parents have been together 50+ years, and everyone on the outside thinks they are so happy. They should see the truth if you are around when my mom rages at my dad 8 hours a day, and my dad is grateful for his hearing loss so he can ignore her. Sounds fantastic, right?!?
On a related note, my EFA is a wreck. I have a middle executive job, and look and dress like an age appropriate person who does what I do. Everyone keeps trying to set me up with someone close to my age so I can enjoy her children and grandchildren. Another coworker commented that it wasn’t too late for me to father one, and kinda meant it. This happens constantly.
Fuck that. I never fabricated any children by choice, there’s no way I’m going to lead that life with someone else kids. I changed enough diapers by the time I was 12 to know this wasn’t my jam.
I’m clearly not enjoying bachelorhood, but comparing my last few years of my TMM this is far superior because it’s completely drama free. And I’m growing to be very fond of the quiet.
But this expedited daddy track thing everyone is trying to put me on just WTF confusing. I didn’t want that life when I was 20, why would I wanna do that at 50?
Concur.
If I had a “ignore user” button, I would have done so already.
If it was elevating the discussion I would not have that opinion. It’s just an annoyance.
You and I are the same age. Why aren’t you enjoying bachelorhood? I love it. I find that for myself I have to have goals, focus, and a “mission” to stay happy. First, with me it was learning how to get laid and health. Now I’m getting laid so it’s health, saving, and investing. I love real estate and I’m pursuing that so that I can get out of my current job. It’s not a exciting life but it’s stable, fulfilling, and with zero drama except with the women at work. It’s like being reborn. I do have a kid I’m raising but that doesn’t make you happier as BD has said, it does the opposite.
I’m not sure myself.
By any objective measure my life is better now than at any point of my TMM.
In retrospect, I was literally suffering when I was married, and now I’m not. I have zero desire to go back there. The last summer I was married I worked 90+ hours a week for 11 I straight weeks.
But I did have mission and purpose then, now I just have a job. I make double now compared to my last gig when I was self employed. I have a great place in a nice neighborhood and more money than I can usefully spend. I’m not sure what to do about it.
Sorry for the hyjack BD.
Sounds like you’re comfortable and bored. I went through that once I got comfortable with dating and my job after my divorce. You’re a man. You need to be pushed and challenged by something. Something that drives you and at the same time scares you a little. With me it was putting a realistic plan in place to get out this 9-5 worker drone job. Started with downsizing, cutting my bills, starting a shopify business (more tinkering at this point), and investing. I find ways to downsize and cut back every day and look for new investments. I’m not working 9-5 until i retire and then die shortly after. These things make me happy. I always wanted to go down that path but I always had some vampire sucking the motivation and money out of me. Creating new bills. Making it impossible. Anyways, BD kind of lit a fire under my ass with his talk of being financially independent.
Neither of those things is true. I haven’t been bored since I was in middle school. Before I landed this job, I was kinda low key homeless for a few months earlier this year. I’m grateful to have a place with heat and plumbing.
Im glad you’ve found mission that works for you. I’ve done literally every single thing you mention at some point in my life, and am not interested in doing it again.
Getting separated from my wife was tough, but I got through that okay. That protracted divorce….injured me. Like there are parts of me that are missing or burned out or something.
BD writes that the normal tradjectory is at somepoint after the divorce is final your life goes back to normal, and you enter the happiest part of your life. I never got there. It never got better, but it did stop getting worse.
Like I said, I’m not sure what to do, or what I should have done, but it’s not working yet. So I press on and hope something sticks.
Prenups don’t favor chicks. Why would she mention something that she knows puts her at a disadvantage? That would be like BD saying that the best way to do game is to go to party venues to get a partner, then propose to said partner right after having sex with her.
Xplat strikes again! Love reading stuff from that dude.
Tomassi, Roosh, Cernovich and others like them sound like incels. I question very much their success with women. Hell I KNOW Roosh isn’t legit, seeing as his form of “game” is to just make a lot of money, travel to eastern europe, and pay their sex workers. Pretty sure he’s been exposed for doing that.
Those guys want everyone to see things their way because they feel like they have some kind of divine duty to save the world lol. Even Victor Pride is starting to get that way which kind of sucks. They must be running out of material and purpose.
yup that’s normal. I got super spiritual again for awhile and that fixed that. Can’t really explain that but something about it fixed me up. But each his own.
Been there done that didn’t hurt but stick either.
Maybe I just need some more time. IDK
All the above thrive in anger and cultivate victimhood. The core of the message is rotten and craven. Or…
Way to empower men and actively take down misandrist tropes and not reinforce negative sphere stereotypes, bros!
I find that building up the insides is like building muscles through lifting heavy weights. You go lift that boring ass number every day for a month and then bomb, one day it’s lighter and you can move up in weight. Just not as obvious with internal health and happiness.
To be honest, if this is just another normal article where ”monogamy is biological wrong” I would have passed. Including and scrutinizing a third person’s point of view (who has some credit too, 36 years of marriage is no shit) is really a good choice and interesting read.
Btw, I intend to get an open marriage by the end of next year. When will you update your ”How To Create or Convert to an Open Marriage” book? After 3 years together with Pink Firefly? Do you think the current version is somehow outdated and we should wait for the next installment with real experience from you?
When is your dating younger women audiobook coming out hopefully soon?
Good, but I hope you’re over age 35 per my recommendations.
Winter of 2020, after her and I have logged three solid years of co-habitation. So a little less than two years from now. I already have a chunk of it written, but I am forcing myself to stay married for at least 3 years before I complete it. I have to walk my talk.
The current version is in no way outdated. It focuses creating, converting, overall management, and divorce management. It just doesn’t delve deep into day-to-day wife/relationship management like the future book will. So the future book will be more comprehensive (and thus more expensive), not “updated.”
I will give guys who purchased the current book a big discount on the new one upon release, as always.
Yes, probably Thursday. The business course got in the way of the audiobook schedule.
A bit off topic but I think most people would want to know.
I follow every point of your alpha 2.0 system. I have lots of fbs and mltrs, and I’ve had many oltr candidates in the past. I know how to make sure of that if I ever get into an oltr relationship I can never get hurt legally or financially. The thing is I’m sorta in fear of getting emotionally hurt. Fear of getting relationship ruined after investing quite a lot in a woman. Look i won’t mince words here, women are women. I know someday she’ll cheat on me by falling in love with another man. It’s just that what’s the point of investing in a relationship then? But if I won’t do it, I feel empty inside. I’m serious. The fbs and mltrs model give me a lot of power in my life, but i feel empty.
I’m tried some therapy from two different places all they said how the whole system of fbs and mltrs is just because I have commitment phobia even though I told them how I’ve been divorced raped.
Johnson – Your questions are so good (in that I know other readers have them) that I’m going to devote not one, but two blog posts to them. Coming soon.
Considering that you have been divorced once already, your chances of being successfully married are now statistically far worse than the first time. Can you imagine telling someone who you knew was a 3:1 dog to getting injured like that they were irrationally scared? No, because that’s crazy! If this was an industrial safety issue they would do a massive campaign and disallow the practice.
No shit you have trust issues. Those aren’t to be plastered over, they are to remind you not to do that TMM shit again!
Any therapist who doesn’t understand the mental and financial costs of the demise of a TMM, or is not empathetic to relationships other than TMM should be avoided at all costs. But being emotionally committed is different than signing marriage destruction contracts.
I’d find another therapist.
I dont get any of those messages from Rollo. Of course the reader plays a role in the communication, and for me he represents really well the nature of the beast, like it or not. I think Roosh tries to do all those things you listed, and its kind of sad. Sometimes it looks like he would like to take the blue pill, because he hates the crude reality of the red pill so much. Rollo doesnt give me that vibe… I think he describes a lot of ugly stuff trying his best not to judge it from a personal level.
I myself prefer to know the truth and use it to decide my path. I’m much like Blackdragon, pragmatic and rational. The nature of women doesnt make me angry at all. Actually, knowing it better makes me less and less angry. I was angry when I was a needy Alpha who couldnt understand the basics of feminine logic.
All I was trying to say is that from my perspective the route to maximize happiness for me goes through being a serial monogamist rather than being in an open relationship (and being aware of the eventual drama I’ll face makes it much less harmful or disturbing). I’d actually like to be able to do it, but my attraction switch doesnt work like that. Life is easier for the pleasure of sex guy, and I think the thrill of the hunt guy inside me wants to be sure he wins the competition with other man for the girl tingles even when fully commited in a long term relationship.
Not sure if it all makes sense lol
BD I didnt mean literally that I want to be monogamous because I’m afraid the kids wont be mine. I dont even want kids.
The thing is I dont think an open relationship will make me actually happier. Will probably be constantly questioning myself if the girl enjoys sex more with her FBs. What turns me on is seeing the girl horny as hell, and knowing that I make her wet as fuck (I know i know LTR will end this pretty quickly. Then I break up and start it over lol). I know that doesnt make me any favors, it would be much better if I didnt give a fuck, but thats how I’m wired and I couldnt really control it the last few years (trust me I tried). I mentioned Rollo just as a possible genetic explanation for my preferences.
I had no clue that saying Rollo’s name would cause such a shitstorm lol. I didnt even said I liked Rollo (like BD did), just mentioned him, and people went nuts
Well hope youre right and I change over time, but hasnt worked lately. MLTRs and FBs for years and its meh. Dont want OLTR. Well I will try the alternative
That’s fine but you’re not acknowledging that your alternative (serial monogamy, i.e. getting dumped by women for the rest of your life) wont make you happy either.
Lots of good perspectives and good ideas – thanks everyone.
Just a minor aside –
I interpret #12 as possibly talking more about the fact that relationships are strengthened whenever the people overcome external challenges together.
Well it will definitely have its ups and downs. But I think being aware of the reality behind it will make it much easier. Getting divorced sucked of course, especially as a not red pill aware alpha man feeling I was becoming a pussified version of myself in the process, but looking back the biggest issue for me was not knowing what the hell was going on and getting crazy frustrated that I had no clue what was wrong with my ex-wife. Well now I know (and know she was just being a woman, not her fault) and I will be fully aware. So I’ll try to minimize the lows and maximize the highs. In between relationships, enjoy the hell out of MLTRs and FBs until it becomes stale again. Rinse and repeat. Maybe later in life I’ll be able to tolerate an open relationship who knows
Yeah, re-reading it, that’s probably a more accurate interpretation. And I agree getting through shared external challenges can help a marriage. Often they don’t, however. (As one example, parents who have deformed or special needs children have much higher divorce rates than normal couples.)
Exactly. Ups and downs is not long-term, consistent happiness, as I showed in the Alpha Male 1.0 chart here.
I don’t have downs. I just have a steady stream of up.
But it’s your life.
Yeah but if I did it exactly like you it would be a steady stream of down, unfortunately. Gotta try to optimize my situation
As distinguished from what? Being monogamous and having your irreplaceable angel cheat on you while you pedestal her as a scarce resource and guard her from other men with laser guided missiles?
Yeah, that seems like a smart strategy.
So if I ever get into a relationship that is not polygamous I immediatly turn into a beta loser forever?
I’ll enjoy NRE and be as alpha as I can. Whenever the girl isnt making me happy anymore I’ll break it up and move on.
All I’m saying is that a string of MLTRs and FBs for years brought me to the point where I am today, where I think this lifestyle is meh. Now I want something more but I dont want to be in an open relationship (be it because of SP that I couldnt overcome or some deeper psychological reason). So serial monogamy here I go, knowing perfectly that maintaining my alpha frame is a must and that breaking it up will be a need after a while.
I’m not defending being a cuck pussified beta for crying out loud
This easily works in theory, hopefully it will work for you in practice.
Just curious, do you even get sexual desires for other women when getting regular sex from one woman? In case you didn’t know, allowing women to have sex with other guys doesn’t mean they will actually take you up on it. They may even desire it less, since it’s not forbidden. On the other hand forbidding women outside sex, absolutely won’t guarantee they won’t do it.
Yeah but I mostly do ONS. I’ll probably keep doing it when monogamous. Its the dating boring girls and nexting them when they become annoying and then dating new boring girls that really gets me tired. And when I finally get a good set of girls that are minimum work and highly enjoyable they LSNFTE my ass. I believe girls in my country are not open to be FB and MLTR for as long as american girls. 1 year max before it starts raining drama (probably can take the relationships longer with the drama but whats the point?). Even when I hardly make any boyfriend behavior.
Yeah I’ve thought about that. I’m actually not that jealous , I know its stupid and useless and would actually increase the odds of being cheated on. I wasnt jealous even before the red pill;
I rationally comprehend the advantages of open relationships. I still know that I wouldnt be okay with my girl sucking someone elses cock and then come back to me like nothing happened. It definitely can happen in a regular LTR, but in this case the relationship is immediatly over. And I’ll know there’s something wrong with my frame/OI that I’ll need to fix.
I don’t think he’s quite going that far. But it’s also apparent that is okay for you to be jealous and possessive over someone, but the minute they get like that over you, it’s over.
I’m not judging. But to me that’s just masked neediness when I’ve seen it before.
Personally, I expect a reciprocal relationship. If I expect to be free, I need to extend the same courtesy to her. Likewise, if I marry someone and imprison them, I expect to ultimately have a prison riot on my hands.
But yet my ex-wife used to complain that I didnt have any jealousy towards her, and that I should because blahblahblah. And I wanst even red pilled.
Yeah youre right about that. I wont be around for long if they want to boss me around. I think most people around here would agree on that.
Perhaps, but I dont think so. I definitely feel rewarded by becoming the girls biggest priority in life, but would hardly call it neediness. Nowadays it is more like some kind of pride and appreciation for all the self improvement that I’ve been through since divorce, by studying and following great manosphere minds like BD.
Agreed
What country is that? Sounds like a good problem to have, if that’s all you have to worry about. You have to look at it from a woman’s perspective. They are trying to get financial investment (eventually anyways) and are generally not wired to be FB/mltr forever, although they would have no choice if all men refused to invest in them. It’s funny how these girls are boring/uninteresting, but in their minds due to male thirst they think they are the best thing ever.
Your best bet is to do what JOTB does and get yourself a masculine/independent woman that just wants sex and is not needy, which would probably be unattractive to you but you can’t have everything!
Uhh, my girlfriend does not just want sex. If she just wanted sex, she wouldn’t be my girlfriend. She’d be just a fuck buddy.
My girl is very feminine in terms of her physical appearance. She has to be, or she would get no men. She’s also a Wiccan, which is a very feminine religion.
But she has a very masculine attitude towards sex and sexuality. She has a very intense sex drive and would get very fidgety if she had to go without sex for a week. She receives multiple and super intense orgasms very quickly and easily.
But yeah, she’s certainly not Disney. She loves fucking other women’s husbands and boyfriends as well, with or without the women’s permission. And she cheated on every boyfriend she’s ever had when she tried monogamy a long time ago.
Polyamorous, not polygamous. Words matter.
Polygamy is even worse than monogamy. It means you’re sexually exclusive with multiple women, which is way worse than being enslaved to just one. No wonder the Muslims are so angry.
Not forever.
How will you know if she’s cheating on you? Women are experts at not getting caught. In fact, my girlfriend has given some of her female friends who are monogamous and cheating extremely specific tips on how to avoid getting busted. “Tell your boyfriend a guy just hit on you and you said no because you’re taken, but he’s harassing you. Send your boyfriend after him or distract him with that, while you see your lover.” “Text him an ‘I love you’ right after sex with your lover.” Etc…
LOL! There’s no “deeper psychological reason.” You’re just needy. You see a girlfriend like a diamond that’s worth hoarding from other men. You can’t pedestal women like this and claim to be an alpha 2.0. No woman is worth being treated like a scarce resource.
Wow! So you’ll cheat on her and make sure she never finds out. Ok, so is it fine if she also cheats on you and makes sure you never find out?
If your ego is that fragile, than I guess you’re heading into “don’t ask, don’t tell” territory. Which is fine, but just be aware that you are going to be in an open relationship. Everyone is in an open relationship. The only relevant question is, “do they know it?” If you don’t want to know it, that’s fine, but don’t delude yourself into thinking that you’re monogamous.
There is no such thing as monogamy. There is only either a polyamorous relationship that you know about or don’t know about. But everyone in the world is poly, barring some extremely low sex drive prudes and super religious people living in third world shitholes (or the Amish).
So enjoy your discrete open relationship, I guess.
Please don’t make me laugh.
The odds of you being cheated on are increased by the fact that she’s a human being who likes sex and is hot. You’ve admitted that you’ll do it too. So just understand that she’ll be doing the same thing. If you want to protect your fragile ego with a monogamy delusion, fine, but here we will tell you the truth.
And how do you plan to stop her? How do you plan on even knowing about it? We have smartphones now. We have the internet. We no longer live in villages where neighbors observe neighbors and women get stoned to death for fucking other men.
No, it won’t be immediately over, because you won’t know. Stop acting like such a tough guy. You will have no knowledge of her dick sucking activities. She will make sure of that.
And if you find out, do you really want to lose her over something that stupid? It seems your relationship is rather cheap if you can’t get passed your girl having some fun on the side, even while you ONS other women. Then again, I think all monogamous relationships are cheap and hypocritical.
Wrong! All women cheat eventually, even on alphas. It has nothing to do with your frame. An alpha frame merely postpones the cheating. Women cheat because they love sex, just like us! Want to mitigate that? Get yourself an Amish virgin who will only fuck you once a year in the missionary position while totally silent.
You are declaring war against human nature and fooling yourself into thinking that being an alpha can overcome a woman’s natural biological tendencies. It can’t. But you’ll learn that the hard way!
I’d be interested to see what you think of this BD.
I am about to come up to 3 years into my relationship with my OLTR. First 6 months was FB which turned to MLTR pretty quick. Then we moved in together and went OLTR and I got rid of my other FB‘s but we started swinging and fucking a lot of girls together. I hadn’t found your blog by then so I didn’t follow your steps. But pretty much ended in the same place and then when I did find your stuff I used it to adjusted our situation to match it pretty much.
I currently have 2 casual FB‘s on the side which I only see rarely. Like once every 2 months or so. I also go and see hookers when I feel like it. But mostly I fuck other girls with my GF through swinging or at swinging parties.
The funny thing I’ve found is that I never had NRE at the start with her. She’s much younger than me and exactly my type of hot. So I just loved having her in my life. Plus we got on well etc. But it wasn’t NRE. But we are coming up on about 2.5 years living together now and we’ve had a lot of fun. And the longer we are together she is becoming more and more open to accepting whatever I want to do sexually. Plus we’ve ironed out a few little fights here and there. Normal relationship stuff. So we are starting hit this real connected spot where everything just works so well and all of a sudden I’m finding myself really falling in love with her and getting some real NRE type feelings about us.
So I feel like my NRE and real falling in love type feeling is ass about and has taken us 3 years to get to and developed by a shared experience of sharing our sexuality in a really open way as well as just sharing our lives together. We get on really well from day to day just living normal life.
Because I’m 50 and she’s only 22. I was really expecting our relationship to fade out after 3 to 4 years and for her to move on. And I think she was as well. But now we are both feeling like its going to end up being pretty long term. Seems to be getting stronger not weakening.
I wont argue much because most of your points are based on this opinion. I think its a broad generalization. I’m sure a lot of people cheat, I know I did and will probably do again. Its ironic that while Duke is trying to convince me that getting into an open relationship doesnt mean my gf would have sex with other guys, you’re saying they will 100% cheat in a monogamous one.
I’m closer to agree with Duke’s opinion on this. Yes a lot of women cheat but mostly because their interest in their man fades given time, because of their beta behaviour and slow pussification natural to every relationship. But sex is a different thing for men and women, and I disagree of your view that they are just like us Women cheat because they love sex, just like us!”
Yes they love sex but their attraction works in a pretty different level, and they are more prone to pair bonding. Most people in the manosphere will agree that a girl wont cheat during NRE for example, meanwhile a typical man will fuck any hot girl without thinking twice.
Extrapolating, the gf will cheat when she lost that spark for the guy (he is not, in her eyes, the same alpha she fell for) or someone with a much higher SMV took her from him (what is rare if you’re already a guy with a high SMV so I dont worry about it so much. Plus, it could probably happen in an OLTR as well, and the girl could just kick the guy and move on to the next, or worse, try to demote the OLTR to a FB or something. Idk, just wondering. Anyways, for me it falls in the 2% rule)
But that’s just my opinion, I know that for you it is disney, and you probably have your reasons to believe that. I just disagree with the idea I’ll be 100% cheated on and that there is no escape
What country is that? Sounds like a good problem to have
Brazil. It is a more westernized nation than other latin countries, but it is probably more religious and traditional than america (despite the huge amount of leftists and communists trying to destroy Brazil). The culture here definitely discourage MLTRs. There are tons of sluts though to become FBs
Of course it is. It’s probably right too. Because…
See? Cognitive dissonance. Knock that Disney shit out of your head.
Funny thing about that, if you give her the freedom she yearns for, she’s less inclined to take it.
There are exceptions. I am not the least bit jealous or possessive, and was with someone a while back who’s a serial cheater. She goes from one mono relationship to another, and as soon as things smooth out and the NRE waits a little, she cheats again, which I wished I knew before I got involved with her in the first place.
Anyway, she probably wouldn’t be open (too much SP), so she’ll just go do it again. Too bad, the sex with her was fantastic.
Well “a lot of people cheat” is not “women always cheat”. That is not cogntive dissonance.
Well that is an assumption. Probably based on the idea that being in an open relationship makes it easier to sustain an alpha frame. It’s all about frame. A girl wont risk cheating if she deeply respects and admires her bf frame and SMV. They might even not cheat after she loses all that respect, and just break up (and propably regret not cheating subconsciously)
Notice I said “being in an open relationship makes it easier”. But it depends on the individual. A guy can be in an open relationship and lose his frame pretty quickly, or be in a monogamous relationship and keep an alpha frame for a long, long time. Anyways you will make some concessions that will affect your value in the eyes of your partner regardless, and being in an open or monogamous relationship is just one of many factors. I’m not arguing that an open relationship is more efficient, it is, I’m just saying its not the only thing that matters
I’m not sure what your actual question is.
(And I don’t recommend OLTRs with 22 year-olds, but I think you already know that.)
Most of the post was just context.
But the question was have you seen, or is it something you might have expected, what I am experiencing. I.E. less feelings and little NRE at the beginning of an OLTR but then after almost 3 years living together a sudden deepening of love feelings and a sort of NRE type experience.
And if your girlfriend catches you cheating? I’m sure you would think it would be stupid of her to trash the entire relationship over something as insignificant as you enjoying a one night stand. And yet, that’s what you’re planning on doing to her. Sad.
Eventually yes. As C Lo pointed out, if it’s forbidden, dirty, and taboo, she will be more likely to do it quicker than if it’s above board. If you tell her that the rules forbid her to think about the pink elephant, she will be more inclined to do so under a “he doesn’t own me” and “this is extra hot” attitude.
Beta behavior may hasten her cheating, but even if you’re the biggest alpha in the world, monogamous relationships are, by their nature, boring. Eventually, she’ll get tired of fucking the same guy only and will want to spice things up.
Would you at least agree to a threesome with her and another dude if she were to give you one with another female in exchange?
Sleeping with another man on the side does NOT negate her pair bond with you, just like you doing ONSs does not negate your pair bond with her.
You seem to view the concept of cheating as a philosophical monolith. It is not. There are a few different types of cheating. You’re only referring to one type – cheating because she no longer wants to have sex with you, or is no longer attracted to you. If that is the type of cheating you’re talking about, then you’re right and I’m wrong.
But, there are other types of cheating, like her being madly in love with her alpha boyfriend, while ending up having a one night stand with a hot guy during a girls’ night out because (1) she knew you would never find out, (2) it’s just a one time thing, and (3) she doesn’t even know his name, so it doesn’t count. She’s still super horny for you and loves you very much, but she sees this as having nothing to do with you, as this is just a one time guilt free pass that doesn’t count.
In an OLTR, she has less incentive to do such things because it’s not either/or. She doesn’t have to choose between us. Let her fuck you and me. She doesn’t have to “kick one of us out” in order to have her cake and eat it too. She doesn’t even have to go through the headache of hiding it.
I wouldn’t say that’s worse. That’s actually better than a full on break up.
My larger point is that you’ll never know. Seriously, how to you expect to find out? You’ll probably have a monogamous girlfriend, be happy, and then eventually break up for reasons that had nothing to do with cheating. But during the relationship, she cheated on you multiple times with multiple men and you were none the wiser.
How do you plan on enforcing your monogamy? How do you plan on knowing when she violated it? Monogamy is impractical, unenforceable, and a completely meaningless concept. The illusion only serves your false peace of mind and assuages your ego.
Even if you’re 100 percent right and I am 100 percent wrong, you will have no way of knowing because she won’t tell you – not even after the break up. By contrast, there is no way my girlfriend can violate the terms of our relationship without me finding out, since I will definitely know if she fell in love with someone else and she will surely break up with me. Thus, OLTR rules are enforceable under penalty of break up. Your rules are not.
It does. But more than that, an open relationship stops you from throwing away something beautiful because of trivial bullshit, like finding out that she slept with another man.
She will never respect you, and will lose all attraction for you, if you stay with her despite her cheating. The relationship is doomed, so you must break up with her just to maintain a semblance of respect in her eyes. What a waste of a good thing!
OLTRs don’t allow you to terminate the entire relationship over socially constructed nonsense, like the fictional ownership of each other’s bodies. Plus, OLTRs demand a level of trust that the monogamous world is incapable of. They make relationships stronger and less fragile.
And as a special bonus, open relationships give you both reasons to treat each other nicely, as competition creates incentive and prevents you from taking each other for granted, as when you put all your eggs in one basket like a giant corporate monopoly.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!
The level of her respect and love for you will only determine how cautious and discrete she will be with her cheating. If you’re a beta loser, she won’t hide her cheating very well and will take it in stride if you find out.
But if you’re an alpha whom she is intensely in love with, she will cheat on you as if she’s a ninja trained by the wisest Samurais in all of Japan. Because it would literally kill her if you found out and broke up with her, her level of discretion and secrecy will be unbelievable.
BD gave us his story about fucking the wife of an alpha husband. When the husband was out of town, she had BD park blocks away (at a certain time of day when the neighbors were away), knock on the door in a certain way, and then have him sit in the living room and watch TV while she went upstairs to call her husband to make sure he really was at the hotel he’s supposed to be staying at. She talked with the husband for 45 minutes while BD was downstairs watching TV. Then she’d close the curtains, usher BD upstairs, and they’d have sex.
I myself have had sex with married women whose husbands were clearly alpha and whom these wives would literally give their lives for without hesitation if it meant saving them.
One of these wives told me how paranoid she was about her husband finding out and I had to reassure her that he never would. She told me (with tears in her eyes) that she’d kill herself rather than lose him. We had to drive to a different city in order to have sex in a certain motel. She also insisted on wearing a black wig (she was blonde) and a scarf over her mouth (it was winter) even in the downstairs motel lobby. She even wore latex gloves in my car so as not to leave any fingerprints (her husband was a cop), even though the husband would never go anywhere near my car. I’m not kidding!
Everything had to be timed perfectly and between our sex sessions, she would text her husband lovey dovey messages, with him responding in kind. Once, he didn’t respond for ten minutes and she became paranoid that he might suspect something, until he finally responded and she relaxed. Then we had sex again.
During the sex, she would tell me, in between moaning, how much of a sweetheart her husband is and how he went out of his way to make their wedding beautiful, plus how he fulfilled her perfect bridal fantasy.
When I asked her why she’s cheating (after we had wild sex multiple times), she said, “You’re very hot and funny and after we talked that first time, I knew I wanted you inside me, but this is our own little universe that will be locked away till the end of time. Back in the real world, I’d never be unfaithful to my husband. He’s the perfect man! I hate cheaters and I would never do that. This is just a dream. It’s not real.”
If you’re a beta, nothing can save you. If your girl knows you’re a beta, she may insist on an open relationship just because she wants to fuck the men whom she is actually attracted to without going through the headache of lying to you. Usually, the beta fucks no one but her while she has group sex with numerous men.
But if you’re an alpha (and you say no to open relationships), she will think that you’re worth the headache of all that secrecy, so when she cheats, her behavior will rival that of our finest intelligence agencies.
This is all based on my personal experience.
As I said in my previous comment, you maintaining your alpha frame will protect you against only one motivation behind cheating. Not the rest.
Sure, that can happen and I’ve seen it happen. It somewhat happened with me and PF (but not exactly what you’re describing). Her and I had some NRE, but not crazy NRE because we had already been FBs for a year, but now we’re getting really into each other 4 years later (1 of which was co-habiting).
No, I would think its the right thing for her to do. Actually, if she didnt break up, I would. No way I’d take the heat after cheating on the girl. She would feel like she could boss me around after that.
So I engage in an open relationship and hope she wont get some dick on the side? thats monogamy with extra steps for me. Either you dont care or you do.
Hell no. No way.
True. I used the wrong expression. I explained the idea afterwards. Girls dont feel horny for multiple guys at once like guys do with multiple girls. Of course I’m generalizing.
Possible. And if I never find out great, no problem whatsoever. If I find out, next. I wont lose my sleep thinking about this. Probably 2% rule anyways (at least that I will find out)
Assuming the other guy is into open relationships as well. Might not be the case. Plus she might fall for the FB and promote him to OLTR and demote you, cant she? I’m just wondering, it seems like a possibility to me.
If I never find out, why would I care? whenever I find out I’ll worry about it. Plus, not caring will make it less likely that she will do it (even hiding it) because of outcome independence and frame benefits.
Overall, the main issue is that you think it is a big problem if the relationship is monogamous but she is fucking on the side and I never find out. If I never find out and it never affects our relationship or my life, I dont care.
BUT, you think its okay if she says she is fucking someone friday night instead of you, because she said so and is not lying about it. That’s something I consider a deal breaker.
If we would agree with the idea 100% of girls cheat, I’d rather be the guy for whom she is in love and because of that never lets him find out about her cheating than be the guy that she also loves but openly fucks other guys on the side. I think that’s our main disagreement, as we otherwise agree with a lot of stuff. I respect your opinion, its just not for me.
Thats another thing… How will you ever know if that isnt her real reason for being in an open relationship? she loves you and all but prefer to fuck with some other alpha dude she is more attracted to? That’s probably the reason it would never work for me. I’d question myself who se really is more attracted to, sexually. And I dont know why but the biggest turn on for me is knowing (or at least believing) the girl is more attracted sexually to me than anyone else.
Also that’s why my favorite MLTRs and FBs are not the ones that are hotter or fucks like a whore or whatever, my favorites are the ones that I get the feeling they never felt anything like that during sex. crying of happines afterwards and stuff like that. Obviously its a matter of perception
Ether you need to go let him get some pussy on the side (which I’m sure you won’t allow)…
Come on, that´s a great fix.
Lol. What’s the point of doing something that works only via dread (“dread game” ) ❓
.
It was invented (= needed) all over the world, by the religious or civil authorities.
It will be delisted (with some natural delay) now that it isn’t in synch with the times any more.
Research, the reliable kind of, shows partners lie to each other 8 times a day averagely. Which kinda means, they lie every time they key in any message/open their mouth.
I haven’t yet figured out why 3 (one, even) physical strike in anger in a year distresses and injures them more than 2000-2500 lies in the same span.
However, the consensus on this is so wide that normal liars, and lying machines, can safely keep enjoying their faviurite activity without any danger for them — legal, or social. Lucky people.