When I talk about long-term sexual monogamy not working, I, surprisingly, don’t get a lot of guys (or women) protesting that anymore. Many years ago I did, even from PUAs(!). Long-term monogamy works as long as you find the right girl, long-term monogamy works if you’re Alpha, long-term monogamy works if you’re a Christian, blah, blah, blah and so on.
Yes, I actually used to get this insane crap from guys defending long-term monogamy and traditional monogamous marriage.
But not so much anymore. Cheating, breakups, and divorces have become so rampant in the last ten years as the Western world continues towards collapse that even hardcore right-wing guys full of Guy-Disney don’t really bother to defend long-term monogamy for fear that they might look stupid (which, of course, they would).
However, I’ve noticed that these excuses have morphed into something else. Defending long-term monogamy has magically transformed into defending jealousy. These excuses usually take the form of one or more of the following:
I could never have an open marriage. I get that monogamy doesn’t work, but I’m too jealous.
I would NEVER have a marriage (or relationship) like you talk about! I can’t be with a woman who is allowed to fuck other guys!!! I’d fucking kill that bitch!
BD, not all men can have an OLTR marriage or open marriage. Maybe it works for some guys, but lots of guys can’t do this. Some men are too jealous.
This all goes back to the concept I’ve discussed before about defending those personal shortcomings that make you unhappy instead of improving them.
Just imagine if you heard a guy say something like…
I could never lose 60 pounds. I’m fat. I was born with bad genetics. It’s just how I am. Maybe some other fat guys can lose 60 pounds, but not me.
Or…
I could never make $75,000 per year. I’m too lazy. I know it sucks, but I’m lazy so I’m just going to have to be poor the rest of my life. Just the way it is.
We all have personal shortcomings. I have some, you have some, everyone has some. They’re different for every person, but we all have aspects of our personality, bodies, or genetics that make us weaker / shittier in some areas than other people.
Some guys suck with money. Some guys suck with women. I suck with my weight. Some guys are lazy. And some guys are… jealous.
These are all problems that need to be addressed. These are not things that you just surrender to because “that’s how you are.” No, you dumbass. If these things cause you unhappiness, then eventually, maybe not today or tomorrow, but eventually you’re going to have to sit down and address this problem.
Jealousy is not a trait. It’s a problem. A trait is something about you that you have to live with. A problem is something you fix. If you view a problem as a trait, you’re just being lazy and irrational.
Having a lower metabolism is a trait. Nothing wrong with that. Being fat is a problem. You need to address that.
Being an introvert is a trait. Nothing wrong with that. Not having any sex for over a year is a problem. You need to address that.
Having a more emotional personality type is a trait. Nothing wrong with that. Being jealous is a problem. You need to address that.
One argument is that jealousy is biological and thus there’s nothing wrong with it. I’m not saying you should have zero jealousy at all times. That’s silly. I’m saying that if you are really jealous as compared to lots of other men, you have a problem that you need to address.
Let’s take two guys, Guy A and Guy B.
Guy A is an Alpha Male 2.0 who has an OLTR plus an FB on the side he has sex with several times a month. One day his OLTR tells him she had sex with some other guy, a beta male she met at a party last year. He shrugs and moves on with his day. She’s been with him for several years and he trusts her, so he doesn’t really give a shit. Within three minutes it’s completely out of his head.
Guy B is an Alpha Male 1.0 dating three different women casually. One of these women tells him pretty much the same thing; that she had sex with some other guy, a beta male she met at a party last year. He is instantly consumed with jealousy, screams at her, calls her a slut, commands her to never see any other men but him, and stresses about this for the next two weeks.
The biological human propensity for jealousy has nothing whatsoever to do with the difference between these two men. Guy B has a serious problem in his life with his jealousy that he needs to address. If he just says, “Hey man, there’s nothing I can do about it, that’s just the way I am,” then he’s just being a defensive and lazy little bitch… and embracing his own unhappiness.
Stupid. (Unless unhappiness is your goal, but if it is, I’m not sure why you’re reading my content.)
Another argument is that being jealous like this is “healthy” or something. I’m sorry, but psychologists and researchers disagree with you.
Here’s a quote from this article from Psychology Today with citations to all of the referred-to studies:
…what really motivates jealous responses? Research has linked several traits to greater jealousy:
- Low self-esteem.2,3
- Neuroticism: a general tendency to be moody, anxious, and emotionally unstable.2,4
- Feelings of insecurity and possessiveness.5
- Dependence on your partner:6,7 Even asking people to imagine that they don’t have good alternative partners leads to more negative reactions to hypothetical jealousy-inducing scenarios.8
- Feelings of inadequacy in your relationship: Generally fearing that you’re not good enough for your partner.3,9,10An anxious attachment style: A chronic orientation toward romantic relationships that involves fear that your partner will leave you or won’t love you enough.11,12 Research has shown that temporarily causing people to feel more securely attached, by asking them to think about receiving support from a loved one, makes them react less severely to a hypothetical jealousy-inducing situation.13
All of these factors that relate to jealousy are about the insecurities of the jealous people, not about the love they have for their partner.14
Here’s another one from 2KnowMySelf:
The following are possible root causes for jealousy:
Jealousy root cause #1: Lack of self confidence: The main cause for feelings of jealousy are your doubts about your abilities or skills. If you were one hundred percent sure of yourself you would have never suffered from any jealousy feelings
Jealousy root cause #2: Poor self image : Having a poor self image is another cause of jealousy. If you believe that you look ugly or that you are not that handsome then chances are you’ll be experiencing feelings of jealousy whenever you meet someone who looks better than you
Jealousy root cause #3: Fear : One of the root causes behind jealousy is being afraid. This fear can be a fear of ending up alone, a fear of being rejected or a fear of losing the love of your partner.
Jealousy root cause #4: Insecurity: Feelings of insecurity are the result of the two previously mentioned causes. A poor self image and lack of self confidence can result in making you feel insecure about a relationship and this can be a strong reason that can make you jealous.
And here’s a study done by the American Psychological Association titled, “Study links jealousy with aggression, low self-esteem”:
The researchers found:
Both self- and peer-reported jealousy appeared to contribute to adolescents’ experience of loneliness, even when researchers controlled for adolescents’ broader social acceptance by peers.
Adolescents with lower self-worth reported greater vulnerability to jealousy.
Jealous adolescents were both physically aggressive, such as by hitting or pushing, and passively aggressive, such as by ignoring a peer with whom they were angry.
I could go on and on with examples from experts, folks. If you are so damn jealous that you are willing to embrace long-term monogamy that you know doesn’t work, then you have a serious problem within you related to your own self-esteem and inner insecurities that you need to address, fix, and/or alleviate as best you can.
I didn’t say you need to be perfect. As I said above, weight is my problem, and I’ll probably never have that “perfect.” If you’re a jealous guy due to your personality, childhood experiences, or whatever, then sure, you may not ever get to the level of outcome independence regarding sexual jealousy that someone like me has, and that’s okay. The point is to get your jealousy down to levels where you can at least make alternate relationship systems work for you, systems that are more conducive to long-term masculine happiness.
And, as always, it’s your life. If you don’t want to be happy, that’s your choice too. But don’t try to bullshit the world by saying that it’s “just how you are.” That isn’t the problem and you know it. If poor guys can make more money, if introverted guys can go get laid, if I can lose weight, and so on, then you can become much less jealous.
Note: To preempt the question I know I’ll get in the comments: Okay, but HOW do I become less jealous?, read Chapter 12, Section 11 of The Unchained Man, or even better, all of Chapter 14 of The Ultimate Open Relationships Manual. But frankly, how to become less jealous isn’t the real the problem. The problem is guys using their jealousy as an excuse and then doing nothing about it.
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Most people I have discussed with about jealousy, tell me that not only their jealousy is normal and healthy sign that they love the object of their jealousy, but they also add that jealousy is essentially a pain that is inflicted to them by the person they love. They stand firm that their own jealousy is entirely the fault of their partner’s behavior.
They also tell me that I am an insensitive asshole for thinking that they are incorrect, and they strongly believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with them feeling and acting jealous.
It is important to note that jealousy can be a vicious circle. If a woman sees she can make you jealous, she will use it as a weapon to get what she wants, making you more and more jealous. If she can’t make you jealous she will have to use other kinder and more pleasant ways to manipulate you (e.g. by having sex with you).
I have known women who have tried to make me jealous by sleeping with other men. When they see I am indifferent to it or even happy for them, that makes them less likely to do it again!
I love it when women feel jealous about me (but I won’t go out of my way to provoke it). But I have noticed that they see jealousy in men as a real turn-off. Kind of cute at a low level, but otherwise pathetic or at worst threatening. One woman I know got so pissed off with her boyfriend constantly being jealous, asking her if she slept with someone else, trying to find out where she had been and who with, that she ended up having sex with someone just to end it.
Another thing to remember, to a greater or lesser degree, women thrive on male validation. They love attention from men. So I encourage them to speak to other men. It takes the pressure off me and I can enjoy doing what I want. It also makes them hornier when they end up going home with you at the end of the night. One woman would talk to other men in bars and when they bought her drinks, would give them to me while I was talking to other women. Now that’s teamwork!
Hey BD, I remember you saying oneitis is not a state of mind, it is action. That if you think about a girl all the time, it isnt oneitis, it is just falling in love, or NRE or something. It is when you act like a beta AFC putting everything in second place for a girl thats oneitis. I agree with that.
What about jealousy? I feel jealous but I know I shouldnt and I dont want to. I dont act jealous, I try my best not to act jealous at all occasions. But I feel it.
So, basically, I know acting jealous will only make the relationship fall, and feeling jealous is only affecting my happyness in a bad way, but I can’t avoid it.
The funny thing is that before the red pill I wasnt jealous at all. I was so insanely confident that jealousy never showed up. After the red pill, and seeing how easy it is for a guy with game to get chicks, even married ones, I’m always jealous. I’m always noticing things like body language and IOIs and thinking “in the right situation, this girl would definitely cheat her husband with this guy (or with myself)”. Simply can’t trust girls anymore. And can’t gather myself around the notion of an open relationship neither. Not because I think being jealous is fine… I simply cant avoid it.
Jealousy often arises from a scarcity mentality. This is why it’s so important to continuously work on frame, game, seduction, etc., to the point that you know you can go out and meet (and lay) multiple new women very quickly whenever you need to. This will put you into an abundance mentality, which is absolutely necessary in order to achieve one of the most important concepts BD mentions on this blog for an Alpha 2.0 life/mindset: Outcome independence.
This principle applies to your professional life, too.
In my experience, the people with the most severe jealousy problems also have the highest propensity to cheat themselves. This includes both the dominant women I’ve dated, as well as my cheating alpha male friends.
I’ve always chalked it up to self-projection: I don’t lie about other girls, so if she assumes I’m cheating every time I’m away for a few hours, that’s her problem. She’s the one filling in the blanks.
Spot on. As a man, jealousy is ALWAYS bad. Eradicate it from your life. And if a woman is obviously trying to make you jealous (e.g. posting date/slutty pics on social media) she is definitely into you, and is probably feeling insecure about you. If she was really into that other dude, she wouldn’t be trying to make you jealous; in fact, she wouldn’t be thinking about you at all.
Very good article. I wrote one myself on the same topic (in Italian), essentially saying that jealousy is a byproduct of fear (“La gelosia nasce dalla paura”).
Only one note, though: you wrote “The biological human propensity for jealousy…”. IMO jealousy is not biological; it doesn’t come from the body, it comes from the mind (as we said, from fear and insecurity). Of course the mind then influences the body, thus you feel jealous in your body as well – but that’s a physical reaction, not the source.
Yes, it’s innate and evolutionary, but it’s a psychological problem, not a physical / biological one.
Believing that something comes from your biology makes it more difficult to change, because changing the body is harder than changing your mind: you cannot modify your cells, but you can modify your thoughts.valter.psicof@gmail.comhttp://psicofelicita.blogspot.it/
Caleb, there seems something wrong with the way comments display e-mail and website at the bottom (check my previous comment): they are on a continuous line with no separation at all (making them un-readable and un-clickable).
I agree 100% on jealously. It’s a negative secondary emotion. Everyone has experienced it in their life from the time they are young (siblings or friends) until they die (coworkers, neighbors, lovers, family). Much like anger it causes stress and unhappiness. When it comes to women I refuse to allow the conditions. Same way I refuse to allow the conditions to be fat. I don’t allow onitis, have the ability to fuck many attractive women, don’t allow NRE, and don’t even fuck women who display jealousy. If a woman asks where I’ve been, gone. Woman asks who I’m talking to, gone. Woman questions me about pictures I look at, gone. Try to elicit the emotion, gone. I don’t get jealous anymore for the same reason I don’get fat anymore. Set a motive ( single all important reason among many other less important ones) for not getting fat, remove cheesecake from my fridge, and limit the amount of time I spend with people who sit around stuffing their fat faces with unlimited amounts of cheesecake and beer. Just like any person who is trying to control an unhealthy impulse.
Off topic: your voice sounds great !
But remove the code linking to the audio version from the email body, because anyone can access the audio recording as a link and it defeats the purpose of an audio version with paid membership.
Those studies have identified the root causes of jealousy, yet people refuse to admit it.
Yes! A classic combination of Societal Programming and avoidance of personal responsibility.
Emotions are not “beamed into you” by other humans. Your emotions occur within you. They are your fault.
I don’t fully understand your question, but if you’re asking if jealousy is indicative of oneitis, it is not. Guys can get jealous regarding women they don’t have any oneitis for at all; it happens all the time.
I’ve definitely seen this among women. It’s probably true with men as well (not sure though).
If you’re trying to sell your website on my website and it doesn’t quite work right, I can’t say I’m very concerned.
I’m a sexy bitch.
Yeah, I’ll get my guy to fix that.
Correct. Jealousy stems from low self esteem!
I virtually never feel jealous. And I have never acted upon jealousy. I am 37, the first time I ever felt jealous I was already 32, the feeling came in when I was with a woman friend, we could say she was some kind of MLTR, in a beach disco and she started to talk and laugh and then dance with a guy. The feeling came as a big wave together with the desire to come to them and punch the guy in the face, or at least just interrupt whatever they were doing just by talking to them. I let the feeling within me and could completely analyze that it was jealousy, but I didn’t do anything for a few minutes, then I decided to stop watching them and I walked towards the sea and meditated for a few more minutes, which decreased the unpleasant feeling of jealousy of a good 80% or more. The whole thing lasted less than 15 minutes before she came to me, she wanted to go back to our hotel room (that she was paying for us with the money of her husband who she just separated from and asked for a divorce). I didn’t do anything jealous but I still felt a little 5 or 10% of the jealousy. 10 minutes later we were having great sex as usual and the jealousy feeling had completely evaporated.
Looking back at it I think this episode steamed from an insecurity that I wasn’t able to enjoy myself on this particular disco. I usually enjoy dancing but this time the music was really not to my taste. Also the fact that she was talking and laughing was very triggering as I do feel a general insecurity that I am not as extrovert, fun and humorous as I would like to be. I have a bit progressed but I feel I could still improve on my ability to make people laugh. The whole thing was possibly mixed with the fact that she shared a passion for my favorite sexual kink at an unusual level. I think I have encountered only one or 2 women who enjoy it as much as her. So I possibly had a fear of loosing this with her, however I think I wasn’t able to analyse or distinctively feel this fear in the moment, she was fit and slim but only cute and had baby damage from her 2 kids, which could explain that the fear wasn’t clearly present in the moment since I could see plenty of better looking women than her.
Second time, it wasn’t so much jealousy, but more a very clear and distinct fear coming from physical and sexual oneitis. Fear of loosing sexual (100% in synch) access to her subjectively perfect 10 physique. That started 3 years ago, and to this day I am still not completely “cured of the oneitis” even though it’s been one and half year that she broke up and I went and fucked over 30 different women since then. I still haven’t just even seen anyone who I feel nearly as physically attracted to compared to her. So there is definitely a scarcity mentality and my experience is not helping, since every day passing by and every new woman I fuck remind me how special my attraction for her was.
I didn’t care much about someone else having sex with her, however I was not outcome independent at all on 2 points: I wanted to keep the access I had to her sexually, and I didn’t want her body to degrade. This second point combined with her carelessness asking for unprotected sex made me super afraid that she would get pregnant from another guy, why would irreversibly degrade her body. I didn’t care that she get a baby or not, I just didn’t want to have a baby myself and I cared that her body would most probably be significantly and irreversibly degraded by the stretching of her boobs, belly, vagina and possible scars from C-section or episiotomy, etc… I bought contraceptive pills for her for that matter. I also made her do regular STD check ups. She was just above 18 when I met her. Only 3 month after she broke up she already got impregnated, so my fear wasn’t completely irrational. She delivered the baby boy this January at 21 years old. I know because I am still stalking her facebook from time to time from the unresolved oneitis. It’s really pathetic and conducive of unhappiness to have oneitis. Moreover her physique is already damaged from the pregnancy and delivery, so my oneitis is for her past self who doesn’t even exist anymore as such: it’s a really absurd emotional state to be in.
I guess I’m more or less in the middle, but unlikely to get less jealous.
I’m non-jealous enough to accept and even want nonmonogamy, but I’m too jealous to be okay with seeing my MLTR interact non-platonically with men while I’m here (hitting on them seriously, kissing someone who’s her own other MLTR/FB, etc).
So the ideal arrangement for me would be “You can fuck whoever you want, but I don’t ever wanna hear about it”. Probably higher drama than a more hardcore alpha2.0 relationship, and it might lead to a quicker breakup, but I’ll take this over monogamy.
Off topic, but I got banned from that subreddit today. I called out some racist bullshit….should have seen it coming. It was on a day that I had 300+ karma on the main science subreddit on a thread about testosterone & lifting disappear….I was utterly cool about things, and if my handle wasn’t tagged it would never have happened. Did see that one coming, though.
Oh well, on TRP some dude talked about not trusting keyboard warriors, and I think it’s a pretty good point. One weekly manosphere article is more than enough consumption. And this one was good. Jealousy is as far from abundance as it gets.
BD,
jealousy is hard wired……..millions of years of natural selection. paternity certainty, paternal investment, resource security on the part of women etc…….
Therefore it is NOT a problem. It serves plenty of good purposes for protecting men and their investments of time and money….even health (diseases).
That being said. In order to do the MLTR, OLTR, FB – nonmonogamous lifestyle people have to learn to control and moderate their jealousy …… its like learning how not to piss and shit on the floor….i.e. potty training. OR, burbing or farting in public.
BD always talks in books how it doesn’t matter if she fucks some beta dude and having a mediocre sex.
However he never mentioned a situation when, say, you OLTR goes and finds a true Alpha FB who basically outfucks you in every way…
Wouldn’t it make an OLTR arrangement a little bit shaky?
I addressed that in the article. The fact it’s biological (and it is) is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
It is if it makes you unhappy.
I didn’t say it doesn’t matter. Of course it matters. I said you shouldn’t feel threatened by it.
BD hits <paste>:
If a hypothetical 2% exception to the rule is the basis of your argument, you don’t have one.
I don’t even worry anymore. I tuned into existentialist philosophy and now I fear nothing. I am the Buddha. I want for nothing, desire nothing.
I’m not so sure I agree. While I’ve already got my mltr back, she did leave me for an Alpha 1 with a bigger dick for like 3-4 months. (And no, prior to him I was the biggest she’d had, not saying I’m small just for the record lol). But out of maybe 5 or 6 LSNFTE from various women, I have this particular one that left me for an Alpha 1 once, leaving my odds around 15-20% chances of this happening. Could it be a fluke? Maybe, but this particular woman has LSNFTE me twice in 2.5 years, and the first time it was for a beta, but second time for an Alpha 1 whom of course got into angry, violent, and physical confrontations with her as well as got caught attempting to make plans to cheat lol.
Point is, I think X had a valid point about being LSNFTE for an Alpha. This particular woman likes very Alpha men, and this guy was more Alpha I suppose than me (If you consider being angry and violent, cheating, and felonious to be more Alpha…) Because some of these women just love to bring complete chaos in to their lives temporarily.
Something to note, and I sort of knew it would be this way.. When she left me for the beta, she was back in just over a month. When she left me for the Alpha, she was gone for almost 4 months. Alpha does retain women longer than beta, even Alpha 1.
I am surprised you left out the number one cause of jealousy in the seduction community……
Which is projection…. A lot of guys promise monogamy and cheat, this in turn cause them to project and go paranoid that the girl is doing something bad or being shady…..
In fact when a girl is constantly harassing me with the “being with other women” card, i automatically assumed they are doing something…
Finally, when they come out of the blue nitpicking, and making monogamy demands…. Again, i automatically assume there is a dude promising monogamy and/or messing with them…..
^This type of women behavior annoys me, i usually soft or hard next…
The scenario you’re describing is not the one he’s describing.
I understand how that may feel, but you have to use some basic logic:
6 women LSFNTE you. 1 of them has a bigger cock. Therefore, your assumption, or at least implication, is that, oh no, your women will be constantly taken away from you by men with bigger cocks.
Does that make sense to you when you actually look at the numbers?
Or does it make more sense to assume that all MLTRs will eventually LSFNTE you, and a few of these guys will statistically have bigger cocks, or be more Alpha, or whatever.
I’m not talking to the seduction community. I’m talking to men in general, as usual. (The seduction community is less than 1% of men.)
Absolutely, that’s one of the biggest causes for jealousy for Alpha Male 1.0s. It’s not only irrational, it’s hyper-irrational, and a problem that needs to be fixed.
Thousands of years of mateguarding to make sure the kid belongs to the man and not the mailman, that is biology at work. Not so easy to just take away. I think this is hard to implement on your wife or the woman you have children with. But to start over they way BD has done, and have the AM2.0 life with (a) new lady(ies), that are not the mother of your kids seems much easier.
Taking it away is not my recommendation. Reducing it is.
Not any harder than with any other woman. If you’re jealous, it will be hard with any woman you attempt it with the first few times.
I dont have a scarcity mentality. I dont have oneitis. I’m very good at getting chicks and pretty much outcome independent.
I know feeling jealous will only damage the relatonship. I know it will reduce her attraction and improve the odds she cheats/breaks up (if its a ltr). I know there is no excuse to be jealous and it is 100% bad.
I dont act jealous. I dont fight about it girls. I dont complain. I try to not react at all and be totally indifferent.
But I still feel jealous. It bothers me when a MLTR LSNFTE me for some random dude. It bothers me when a girlfriend is a little bit too close with an alpha friend. It bothers me when I see a FB kissing some dude in a club randomly. It is unfathomable to me being in an open marriage relationship.
Idk why. And I can’t avoid it.
Sounds like SP to me. Society teaches us to own each other like property and how dare someone choose a new owner without our permission. Sounds silly like that doesn’t it? But that’s where that type of jealousy comes from. When it creeps up on me like that, I remind myself that my women allow me to sleep with multiple other women and don’t try to own me so why do I want to own them? I don’t, doing so is stressful and leads to unhappiness.
Unfortunately I do have an argument here, Caleb. It happened to me.
You know the worst part? He’s kinda natural Alpha 2.0. No Alpha 1.0 traits. He doesn’t do any guy drama. He naturally follows your rules almost to the letter.
Thoughs?
So, if you have a fresh MLTR who survived a talk. She fucks another guy and it comes to your attention accidentally -> No problem, just manage the jealous feelings and carry on.
But what if a fresh MLTR tells you overtly a week before that “We can’t see next weekend because “on old friend” is coming over” and makes sure you understand what this “old friend” is about. Then she reminds you about the fact (between the lines) that she fucked another guy during the weekend. Is this a situation where you just manage the jealousy or do you have to consider disrespect attempt (soft next or demote?) from her apart because that’s what she tries to do – hit you hard even though she knows that I prefer “don’t ask, don’t tell”-way of the things because it shows respect. Like you say – no need to brush the fact you are fucking other girls to her face, I think it should go vice versa too.
Hey BD,
It’s been almost 48 hours since I sent you a payment for membership on this blog, but wordpress still didn’t sent me any email. I emailed you as well, but your staff also wasn’t of much help. Sorry to post this here, but it’s the only way I can get to you.
Societal Programming or something from your childhood affecting your self-worth subconsciously. It can’t be anything else.
If you’re trying to make an argument, you need to be much more specific so I can respond. You’re saying you had literally an OLTR who was stolen away from you by a perfect Alpha Male 2.0?
How is anything she did disrespectful? She’s allowed to fuck other men, and she told you she did. I don’t see a problem.
If you literally told her that she’s a not allowed to talk about when she fucks other men (which is not 100% Alpha 2.0, but okay), and she does it anyway, then sure, go ahead and dump her.
But if you never said that, or just indirectly implied that, then it’s not her fault. It’s yours.
My advice to you is (guess what?) stop being so jealous so you can get to the point where you don’t have to command women to not talk about them fucking other guys. That way they can say whatever and you won’t give a shit. (And I’m not talking about a woman who is constantly rubbing other men in your face. You said she isn’t doing that so that isn’t relevant.)
Again, I’m not saying to remove your jealousy. I’m saying to reduce it a little.
In my experience as a business owner, 9 times out of 10 when someone is saying that about my staff, it means that my staff is indeed helping you but they’re not responding to you as fast as you would like. I’ll look into it, but I have a feeling that’s exactly what I’ll find.
Yikes. Did someone actually say this? Psycho alert.
Anyway, jealousy is toxic and will ruin your relationship. Never tolerate it from yourself or anyone else.
I used to be more jealous and it had a negative impact on my relationship. A little self improvement and an increase in my own confidence and self esteem went a long way. To get over it, I had to learn how to really value myself. You are the prize and if someone screws up, it’s a loss on them.
I think upping my self esteem played a big role in making my relationship last for as long as it has.
Not exactly. Not stolen. She just a very low end MLTR now, just above FB level and only because we have a common child. And, obviously, I don’t have other MLTRs now (due to she’s been OLTR). She broke the condom rule with this dude.
What I am saying is, if she’s getting better no strings sex elsewhere and you are emotionally exclusive at the same time, this is very damaging to your frame. It is very close to being betaized into an emotional tampon.
Millions of men have said this or things like this. “I’d kill the bitch” or “That means she’s trash, I don’t marry trash,” or “I’d find the guy she fucked and shoot him in the face,” and “I would never marry a slut like that,” all kinds of other jealous Alpha Male 1.0 stuff.
You’re still not being very clear, but reading between the lines, it means you weren’t Alpha with her, at least in some aspects and at least to some degree (too beta, too much of a provider, allowing yourself to be “an emotional tampon”, etc; do you think I would allow myself to be an emotional tampon?)
Thus, weren’t following my instructions. The problem wasn’t that you had an OLTR. The problem was (likely) you. Having an OLTR wife is an Alpha Male 2.0 model. Having one while you’re still beta to a strong degree isn’t going to work.
And by the way, if some guy fucked her better than you (and again that wasn’t the core reason for the problem), then who’s fault is that? Again, yours. You should have dramatically upped your sexual skills a long time before she became your OLTR. (And if you guys started out as a monogamous couple, you’ve just proved my point.)
As an example, Pink Firefly will never leave me for another Alpha Male. That will never happen; just watch. She could leave me for a beta male someday, oh yes. Or leave me for no one, sure. But she’ll never leave me because she gets “better sex” from a guy who is “more Alpha.” Heh. I’m already Alpha; once a woman has one of those the last thing they want is another one (beyond just sex perhaps, and even then it’s unlikely).
Instead, they’ll stick around or dump you for a beta, as I explained here.
Thats the problem. Easy with FB, GF , mistress… but when you got a kid with the lady, so much harder to apply the BDAM2.0 life.
Well, literally enough that she would understand that (perhaps this is the reason she picked this weapon of choice). It’s not hard to distinguish when the someone wants to disrespect/insult and when she is just frankly sharing things.
I’ve had several fuck buddies talking about other guys they are seeing – no problem. They are just sharing things but this situation with my MLTR is different – she is obviously doing that to disrespect or insult (perhaps partly because I don’t agree to exclusive relationship). I don’t necessarily want a person in my life who tries to find weak spots and hit them. I’m sure you are not emotionally that blunt that you can’t see the difference between the ways one can share their thoughts or what they have done.
Wow. Just saw a YT video on this very subject talking about double standards when it came to jealousy, nonmonogamy, and sleeping around.
I believe in authenticity. Practice what you preach. If that means no sex before marriage, so be it. You’re a fool and I’ll see your girl on Sunday, but I respect your right to choose. Now, when someone holds their partner to a standard other than their own, that’s when I have to disagree. In an ideal world, yes, men would be held to a different standard when it came to promiscuity than women. But we don’t live in such a world, if it ever existed or could have at all. We must abide the rules set by reality. That’s why we promote open relationships and ruling your emotions as opposed the opposite. He who cannot control himself has no control over his environment.
Btw BD, when you gonna publish an article on BPD women? Surely you have one ready or in the works. It seems to me that character disordered people are becoming all the more common nowadays, not to be a doomer lol. As well, jealousy, possessiveness, and attachment all play prominent roles if not the defining factor in any relationship with a BPD woman, or one with Borderline traits. Well, that and crazy good sex of course. Haha
Haha.
I don’t see that on my topic list.
Nope.
Here’s my article on BPD women:
“BPD women make FANTASTIC FBs. Keep them at the FB level and enjoy them; they’re wonderful. Do not make them MLTRs or OLTRs, otherwise you’re an idiot and any problems that occur are 100% your fault.”
Part of avoiding jealousy is not getting involved with women who, make decisions based upon dick size and, love drama. Jealousy is a part of a suite of a dysfunction package that comes with some women and relationships. There are always signs. recognize the signs and next them.
Feelings don’t destroy anything. Allowing them to fester unchallenged (using logic and facts to shut them up) and allowing them to control you by acting upon them will. You can’t control the initial presence of the feeling of jealousy no more than you can control getting angry when some guys cuts you off and causes you to have to go off the road. But you can control what happens after that. Once you get better at dealing with the feelings of jealousy the less those feelings come around. But if you’re a natural Alpha 1.0 like me they will always try to come out.
How can you trust her(an oltr gf)?I mean you cant know if she respects the oltr rules,or if she has a secret mltr?
I am not insecure about this,but do you have a system to find out if you can trust her,or do you “test “her?
off topic:Can you make an article about Me too and false rape accusations?
I want to start doing night game and have ons,but im afraid that i can get a FRA .Do you think that the guys who got FRA got this from “dominant women”?Do you think submissive girls are unlikely to falsely accuse you?Girls who reported FRA,did this because they had buyers remorse?
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2015/01/22/5-ways-avoid-false-rape-accustations/
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/12/29/officially-disavow-repudiate-rapey-pua/
I literally have an mltr who is now back with me but has left me for an Alpha 1 once for 4 months or so. The way you sound, I am doing something wrong or she never would have left me for another Alpha. I’ve been with her 2.5 years, 2 LSNFTE, one beta, one alpha. No other woman has left me for an alpha, but this one has always fallen hardest for Alpha’s. She usually goes for wreckless extreme Alphas, which kind of surprises me she’s lasted this long. I am not as exciting or dramatic as a wreckless alpha 1, yet she has dumped an alpha 1 and came back to me. So are you saying a true Alpha 2.0 never gets LSNFTE for an Alpha 1?
@John,
and to BD as well, I made this MLTR sound like she chose the Alpha for dick size, not so. She is just very open with me, had always told me I was the biggest she ever had, then after we got together again after this Alpha 1, she mentioned that he was a little bigger. I really didn’t give a shit because she was back because I’m better. Also his dick being bigger isn’t bothering me. I just mentioned it because it may have been a factor in why she left as long as she did.
Yes, I really believe that. Of course nothing is 100% in life and there are always 1-2% exceptions to every rule, and I’m also not talking about if she goes out and fucks another Alpha but stays with you or comes back to you very quickly. I’m only talking about if she full-on leaves you for one of these men (or forcibly downgrades the relationship into something radically different). Yeah, you were probably not Alpha enough if that happened.
Women go from Alpha to beta, or from beta to Alpha, from one thing they’re missing to something else. They don’t go from the same thing to more of the same. So if she left you for an Alpha, yeah, you were not Alpha (or not Alpha enough for her).
Perhaps I should do an article about this.
Straight up laconic street wisdom from the benevolent patriarch himself.
Holy shit, that was a profound statement. Yes, you should definitely do an article on that…
Yes an article about this would be great. Also addressing “alpha enough for her”. What if “Alpha enough for her” is mainly dudes with no jobs that are constantly in jail but otherwise fearless but lacking common sense. The alphas this particular woman goes for are always extreme beyond anything a 2.0 would really compare to.
Added to the topic list.
Such a woman should never qualify for anything more than a very low-end MLTR, so it shouldn’t matter if she leaves you for a loser-criminal.
I always used to imagine that women left me for super Alphas, much better than me on every regard. If I ever run across them or see the interactions on social media, it’s almost never the case. I saw one on Facebook last night, boasting that the house he was going to provide her with wasn’t too shabby, calling her his little green angel, referring to himself as her devoted slave. Almost made me want to throw up. Little green angel! I used to call her Otter, because she was a good swimmer. Well, may they both live happily ever after. If she’s happy with that, good luck to her.
Great conversation BD!
I’ve never had a woman break up with me nor cheat on me when I cared about such things. Mainly because as an alpha 1.0, I kept them in line. Demanded that they followed my rules or “respect” me. And if any guys (usually attached guys themselves) started coming around I either told them to get lost, which they did, or sent the message thru my current that they’re to get lost which also they did. Along with some threats of violence. Of course now I don’t care if a woman comes or goes. They can do what they want when they want and I will do the same. I don’t care what anyone says it’s a much happier way to live.
Only thing I will say about this. As an alpha 2.0 women will leave for “more alpha” guys but that usually means more alpha 1.0 which we are no longer. Meaning guys who give them drama, which women love, commitment, and etc. But I have had every single one come back since I have stopped being an Alpha 1.0. If I don’t check in with them they’ll check in with me. And it’s always to fuck. They make that clear. Not a relationship, because they are in time out with their current alpha abusive bf, but just to fuck. Funny thing is the guys know about me, lol. The women tell them they fuck me when they break up. Shit some fuck me when they’re together but they don’t tell them that. All alpha’s who abuse, cheat, and do the shit I used to.
I would prefer they don’t openly talk about banging other men, not because of jealousy but because it seems like this is repulsive to me and I would slowly start to not be attracted enough to bang a girl like this. Similar to smoking or some other repulsive behavior. I’m not sure I have much conscious control over this. There is some type of unconscious “disgust” mechanism going on here. I’m open-minded for ways to overcome this, but “don’t ask don’t tell” seems like an easy way around it for now.
Some women just like talking about their sexual exploits. It turns them on, makes them feel like wild, free spirits or something. I never see it as a problem. If anything, I take it as an indication that they are comfortable with non monogamy.
It would be completely different if it was originally framed as an exclusive monogamous relationship. Then it would be like the woman was deliberately flaunting to get a reaction. But if you aren’t in that frame, what’s the problem?
On the other hand, some women are cagey and like the don’t ask, don’t tell model. Yeah that’s fine too.
There is nothing with a don’t ask don’t tell system and it doesn’t violate any of my rules, and it can certainly work. I’m just saying that if that’s what you require at all times for relationship harmony then you have some more emotional growth to experience, per this article.
If Pink Firefly fucked some other guy right now while he was wearing a condom, and then told me about it tonight, I seriously wouldn’t give a rat’s ass. I’m way too exited about the things in my life that actually matter, of which there are many. I would just shrug and move on.
@Incognito
Ever heard of Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks?
Even game-wise men need to understand that most rejections, and most break-ups, are wins and gains, not losses.
A lot of those may fall upon you because you have a personality, and are resistant to manipulation (or out-and-out manipulation).
Others because you are too honest.
That’s the acid test for complete relational maturity for a man, I think. It means one has tamed his pride as well as far-fetched ideas about women, and come to grips with most of what has to be learned to complete maturation.
Also, sex is not love. Why wouldn’t I want her to be happy (having sex when she wants whom she wants with)?
Loving means to want the other happy
“Action cures fear.” Dr. David Schwartz, The Magic of Thinking Big (1959)
”Hard to be jealous when you’re hard in a friend with benefits.” Duke Davis
Well written article.
If you’re sure that’s what she’s doing/attempting, and if you’ve explained that doing this the way she does irritates you – then just dump her.
Been using your harry browne, grog, and the forgiveness techniques from you and RG. Reread your book with your audio and I feel more capable of getting it to that, “yea girl fucking another guy, what else is fucking new…” and repeating it over in my head. visualizing the most intimdating fucking whatever my insecurity, whatever I’m not that this guy has in the visualization until im fully just desensitized and over it.
shit to fucking do and im letting my thoughts be boggled with what these people do in their spare time? or let others have this card so I can be manipulated given the chance? FUCK THAT. time is ticking and being bothered with these thoughts is how my life is going to go? FUCK THAT
its simply boring to live with these feelings in the present, and even with girls who are long gone and are not be coming back anyways. (messy breakup girls). fucking 2,3,4,5,6,7 years ago these people have been gone or more.
yeesh. PLEASE FREE UP MY TIME BY FUCKING OTHER DUDES. I have shit to do and even hotter girls to manifest and mega adventures waiting for me. please have the most awesome fucking time doing it…by the vary nature of wishing that for you the universe is going to drop the most ultimate dream fuck a godamn 12 year old could of dreamt of (or earlier. whenever girls really started becoming a thing)
How do you get into a MLTR with a woman who behaves like this in the first place? Why do you allow such games in your relationships? That person sounds trash.
I think you already have done one. I am thinking of the one with the “Compliance” and “Attraction” and “Frustration” arrows, going up and down in a zero-sum game. That’s the gist of it all.
At a certain point the decision to be free from frustration is taken; unfortunately from the decision-taker, it also cancels attraction.
Absolutely, in fact I think it’s really weird when a woman doesn’t share these details with me. Most of them are totally matter of fact about it, like “oh I met a new guy last Tues, he’s older/my age/younger, the sex was good/ok/bad“, and it’s no big deal. The only woman I’m seeing that doesn’t always tell me is a) new to open relationships, and b) more immature, insecure, and jealous than average (but she’s matured a lot over the years).
Seriously guys, this is one of the biggest benefits of not being jealous. Women feel safer, closer, and more open with you. You’re The One Guy They Can Say Anything To. You are their sanctuary. This is how you make relationships last a loooooooooooong time.
I won’t say you’re wrong but I think you’re oversimplifying things. For starters, sometimes this is cultural: If you live in a fucked up city like San Francisco (*waves*), the 20:1 male/female ratios and “progressive, boss bitch alpha female” culture results in a dating pool where every hot girl (and even some of the ugly ones) act like this. No joke, every single SF woman I’ve dated in the past 10-15 years has shit-tested me like this. The only true solution is to move (which I’m working on, but that’s another story).
But you can still make it work without having to move. The tenets of the Alpha 2.0 always have you covered. Confidence, outcome independence, managing healthy sexual relationships with multiple women, and having a life that’s constantly moving forward make you literally invincible to all of this shit.
Trust me guys, if you are an Alpha 2.0, you are special; by definition! If you’re worried that a woman is leaving you for something better, it means you’re not quite there yet (or aren’t completely aware of your own value). And there’s nothing wrong with that. None of us started out as 2.0s, and we all make mistakes no matter how far along we are. Just keep pushing forward, listen to your fellow 2.0s, don’t be afraid to try new things, and don’t lose sight of the end goals: your happiness and freedom.
I do miss few points so i have a question (i live basically 4y by BD, so im not newb)
She usually talks to random guys, cuz u know, she’s sexy so they approach her. I dont usually (or at all) talk to random girls (besides from our group) cuz i just have my frame, im kinda dick (not total dick) so i wanna avoid her friends asking her why im doing that blabla… I do it other days obviously
So im not sure how to handle these spots. I dont want to come to random dude when he talks to her (yeah i can be cool and talk to him, but i wanna spend time at bday w my ppl there etc.) ).. I dont want to give her drama. But for some reason i cant also simply overlook she is there w some random dude. And tbh i consider myself supersuperlow needy/jealous and basically zero drama guy (thx BD)
Any tips/strategies for these types of things? Things like going there and talk to him in a cool/boss way are cool, but not effective, time wasted.
On a slightly unrelated note, the jealous guy in the cover stock photo is definitely the “actor” who played Mark in D movie cult classic The Room.