As most of you already know, one classification of non–monogamous relationship is the FB, meaning friends with benefits or fuck buddy. This is a woman you see sexually on a regular or semi-regular basis but whom you’re not dating. You have no emotional feelings for her beyond friendship. You don’t go out on dates with her, buy her gifts, spend the night, have long, emotional talks, none of that stuff. She’s just your friend who you have sex with occasionally.
FBs are far less work than any other type of sexual relationship (other than a pure prostitute of course). They take far less time than a girlfriend (LTR or OLTR). They also take less time and energy than a MLTR. This is because unlike an MLTR, an FB doesn’t want or expect a serious relationship with you, so she won’t pressure you for something more serious (and if she does, I’ll explain why in a minute).
For these reasons, FBs are wonderful. I’ve said for years that every man on Earth should have one or two FBs in his life, even if you’re married or have a girlfriend. Make sure these are open relationships, of course; cheating behind a woman’s back while hoping you won’t get caught is not Alpha.
Over the last 13 years I have always had at least two FBs in my life in addition to MLTRs. Today in my OLTR Marriage to Pink Firefly I have one “main” FB and a second “main” FB whom I see semi-regularly (usually weekly) and a few very sporadic, backup FBs who I can draw upon if one of my two main FBs are unavailable.
Here’s a very important point: The FB is the only type of female relationship that the Alpha Male 2.0 will have for literally the rest of his life.
Think about it:
MLTRs will come and go.
OLTRs and OLTR Marriages are only for certain older men at certain times in his life.
But FBs are truly forever; you should have them at all times, at all ages, utterly regardless of your relationship status.
Regardless of the fact they’re the easiest type of relationship to have, a FB still requires a certain level of relationship management, particularly if you have several of them. Here are a few keys to managing FBs for the long term, listed in no particular order.
1. Generally speaking, the younger the FB, the better. This is because the younger a woman is, the less ASD she has and the less likely she is to be a provider hunter. This means that she will be more comfortable with the casual nature of the FB relationship and will be so longer. I usually try to have my FBs be under the age of 27. Since being OLTR married, almost all of my FBs have been under age 23 because they don’t care about the fact I’m married. Once again, the younger, the better.
I’m not saying you can’t have FB relationships with women in their thirties or forties. You certainly can and I have. These are the exceptions though. As I talk about in my primary dating book, most women over the age of 33 are uncomfortable having sex that isn’t at least leading to a serious relationship.
2. If an FB ever starts pushing for something serious, it’s more than likely your fault. I have had scores of FBs of all ages and personality types over the course of the last 13 years of my life. Only one time have I ever had any of these women start leaning on me hard for something more. This is because I follow all the FB Cardinal Rules I describe in the Ultimate Open Relationships Manual. Things like not seeing them more than once a week, not giving a shit if they have sex with other men, keeping texting and phone contact to a minimum, and so on.
If you have a FB under the age of 33 who starts wanting something more serious from you, the odds are at least 90% you’re not managing the FB relationship correctly and are doing one or more things that are sending out “dating vibes.”
The only exceptions to this rule (that other 10%) is if you’re dating a woman who is coming from a hardcore traditional background (like an Indian woman born and raised in India) or a woman going through an odd time in her life (like a younger woman who’s just had sex with 37 guys and has suddenly become a born again Christian in order to emotionally deal with it).
3. FBs who already have boyfriends are usually the best. When a FB already has a boyfriend, this takes all the relationship pressures and possibilities off of you and 100% onto him, which is win-win for everyone (except for him, of course). Though there are always exceptions to this, most of the easiest FB relationships I’ve had were where when the FB had a boyfriend. Either she was cheating on him or she mandated an open relationship with him, both of which are common with younger women these days who have boyfriends. As I’ve said many times, women under the age of 23 are almost incapable of sexual monogamy. (Frankly, women age 24-27 these days aren’t much better. As always, the closer the West comes to cultural collapse, the worse monogamy gets.)
4. Sugar babies should always be FBs. For you older men with higher incomes doing sugar daddy game or any variation thereof, make sure these women are always FBs and nothing but FBs. Barring extremely rare and bizarre exceptions to the rule, actually getting into a real, dating relationship with a sugar baby is a terrible idea with multiple time bombs built into the system that can and will explode in your face at any moment. For the love of god, don’t do it.
5. Be nice to your FBs. The F in FB stands for friend. These women are your friends. Treat them as well as you treat a friend. Better even. (Just don’t cross the line into any dating behaviors.)
Often, some of your FBs can become very close friends. I have many FBs and ex-FBs who I consider strong friends whom I care for very deeply. (As friends, of course.)
Never make the rookie or Alpha Male 1.0 mistake of treating your FBs like whores or unimportant pieces of ass. The entire objective of the Alpha Male 2.0 model is long-term relationships that you can rely upon for many, many years. You’re not going to have FBs stick around very long if you treat them like crap, or even with polite indifference. If you really want the freedom to treat women like shit, stick with prostitutes (assuming you can afford them).
OLTRs and MLTRs are always optional, but proper FB management is a mandatory skill for the Alpha Male 2.0. Get this book if you need more information.
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When you say this, you are talking only about girls who require pay per meet / allowance only or also girls who don’t require that but just “wanna be spoilt” and leave what that means to you / just date you because they think you are successful. To me, in the first case I completely agree and think that is obvious (and those women are basically glorified and perhaps somewhat more innocent escorts) but in the second case I would say its normal dating and treat it as such (with the obvious caveat that I don’t spoil / do fancy dates with a girl who I don’t consider at least mid-level mltr material).
Does not caring about a woman’s sexual pleasure count as treating her like shit?
Okay, but FBs do not come and go? I think its easier to make them last longer as there are less demands or things a guy can do wrong but usually at some point she wants to start seeing someone else exclusively or something like that.
Is spending the night at a FB‘s against the cardinal rules or just her spending the night at yours?
Also, is cuddling etc. banned for sugar baby FB‘s?
FBs are more likely to keep fucking you when they get into a relationship with someone else. Indeed, if you follow BD’s suggestion and choose FBs that already have boyfriends, where’s the pressure for them to drop you?
Those are two completely different types of women. Your first category is a sugar baby. Your second category is a gold digger.
Sugar babies should never be more than FBs.
Technically, gold diggers can be anything you want, though I personally would never have a gold digger as anything more than an FB, but that’s just me.
Incorrect. Dating overt gold diggers is not “normal dating.” Dating gold diggers is unusual.
I usually next gold diggers by the 2nd date. I can’t stand them. (At least sugar babies are clear and honest, provide very clear boundaries, don’t require dates and a time investment, and don’t expect anything more than sex.)
No, but it’s very poor relationship technique if your goal is long-term relationships. (If your goal is short-term relationships or ONS, then do whatever you want.)
What I meant is sometimes you’ll have MLTRs and sometimes you won’t, but you’ll likely always have FBs.
Spending the night with an FB anywhere in the same house/apartment regardless of who owns it or lives there is against the Cardinal Rules.
Cuddling (at least cuddling that that lasts more than two or three seconds) for any FB (sugar baby or not isn’t relevant) is against the Cardinal Rules.
If you want to cuddle, get an MLTR.
If i remember correctly there was a guy here who was doing sugar babies succesfully in a similar system. And some where MLTRs(spending time together etc)
While when i play the SB game i keep it at FB level, i wouldnt mind doing the occassional level up.
Why is it so dangerous? What are those time bombs that a 2.0 cant handle?
There are some who arent actually SBs, they seek some maturity through the SB game. Even at the beginning and if you play your cards right they want to fuck you without caring much about the money.
As always, we’re not talking about what you would or would not mind. We’re talking about what’s effective and optimal.
If you have very, very strong game and are very confident and outcome independent, you could upgrade a sugar baby FB to a normal MLTR if you stopped paying her. If you’re not paying her anymore then she could be an MLTR at that point (but even that is iffy because of how the relationship started, so you’d better be an advanced level guy).
Odds of a sugar baby ever agreeing to a change like this? Less than 5%. Sugar babies are there to get paid.
Would you want to date, with feelings, a woman who was only dating you because you were paying her to spend time with you?
Really?
We’re not talking about something a strong and advanced Alpha Male 2.0 can or can not handle. We’re talking about what is effective and optimal.
It’s like asking, “What’s wrong with regular drama? What about regular drama couldn’t an Alpha Male 2.0 handle?”
Correct, but that’s different. Those are not sugar babies as I define them, so what I’m saying would not apply to a woman you met on a sugar daddy dating site but whom you never paid in any transactional way. That’s not a sugar baby, as I already mentioned above.
I think any woman who asks for money in exchange for her company can only be FB and it should be obvious, however what you mention here is what I meant in my post above.
I am quite new to sugar daddy game but to me if she asks for money directly shes an escort. That is not even FB I would argue. But if she leaves the payment to you this is what I would personally consider real sugar baby and I might consider in some cases it to be real FB or maybe even borderline with low end mltr. If she is just a provider hunter / looking for a more sophisticated gentleman in this way then this I would consider normal dating and mltr material (if I like her that much). Its rare but I see there are also women who date you in exchange for mentorship / social circle access. That to me is a special category of relationship type by itself.
I don’t think us men can have more than one or two (max.) OLTRs or MLTRs to begin with.
FBs can be several, 1 or 10 of them if you can handle that.
Men are not naturally conscribed to having relationships, having relationships is women’s drive. It’s interesting to note that many, probably most FBs, “are in a relationship.” Almost certainly her BF/Husband is a beta/omega, but who cares. His betaness is what drove her to you. You got your once a week session and that’s it. You really can’t “upgrade” FBs to MLTRs, since you can only have one, maximum two MLTRs.
A most common mistake men with money make is they OLTR (or worse, wife up) a gold digger. Then you see all the nasty divorces of famous people. A gold digger can only be a FB. A sugar baby is a gold digger with a “sweet”, open-game, twist. I agree with BD there’s difference between SBs and gold diggers.
Never allow a gold digger to make you her trick. If her life circumstances and history points at needing and relaying on men for resources, that is where she’ll take you. High maintenance women scream of GD. What the fuck, do you really expect women to have a gold digger sign on their shirts ? Of course, not.
A woman who’s constantly posting her ripped abs pics on Instacrap, aka, attention whore (about 80% of of girls in their 20s nowadays) may or may not be a GD. You have to determine her game methodically, and you’ll find out your answer. Coming back to my previous point, if “she’s in a relationship” she may very well be sucking high and dry the poor beta boyfriend she has for his $$$. Therefore, quite possibly, she’s not going to be a GD with YOU. Or she may be IF your game is poor…
Max,
Your argument has one but a major flaw. You assume that just because you are not able to handle feelings driven relationship with more than one person at a time (same as some other men and majority of women) that automatically every men other man is like that also. This is a classical fallacy. There are many men who are able to do that without problem. I have no idea what percentage they are but there are certainly many including many readers here.
Exactly.
You’re using very imprecise language. I don’t do that. “Leave the payment up to me” means she expects a payment, or at least expects to be wined and dined at a higher level. That’s a gold digger. If you don’t mind dating women like that as MLTRs that’s fine, but just be clear about what she is.
Whether or not that gold digger is also a provider hunter is irrelevant. Yes, some provider hunters are also screening for higher-income men. Some of these women are gold diggers per my definition and some of them are not. Not all provider hunters are gold diggers. Most provider hunters are looking for the trait of obedience rather than high income.
You can’t have more than one OLTR since you can only have one of those at a time.
You can have more than one MLTR. Having more than two MLTRs at once is possible (I’ve done it) but not recommended unless you have a lot of free time. Read this for more information.
Incorrect. Men love having relationships, including and especially pair-bonded ones (that’s why so many men get fucking oneitis).
Men are not sexually monogamous, but that’s a separate issue.
I think you’re talking about yourself, not “men.” You are not all men.
And remember I’ve said many times that Alpha Male 2.0 is only for about 10% of men.
That statement makes no sense.
Agree. (I don’t even like them as FBs though.)
Actually, yes. Most gold diggers I’ve experienced are quite overt about it (“I’m a really expensive girl.” “You should by me handbags.” “I love men who spoil me.” “Um, I only eat at EXPENSIVE restaurants.”) and are quite easy to identify. Which is nice; it allows me to hard next them faster.
How the hell dyou have a fuck buddy who’s a close friend AND not give off dating vibes? Seems too dicey
its easy when both you and her are icewalls with no feelings or emotions
I’ve done it with at least 10 different women without ever having a problem. You don’t make her your good friend right at the start; that’s the wrong EFA. She’s an FB for a long time (so she knows she’s an FB and accepts she won’t get more out of you and is comfortable with that, and is perhaps even dating another guy or has a boyfriend by then) and then after that, over time, she becomes a good friend. It’s very easy.
Jesus. No. (Or I assume you’re being sarcastic.)
I’m sure the F in FBs also mean something else 😉
The best thing about “FBs” is you don’t have to cuddle them or take them out. If you’re alpha 2.0 your time is too valuable to worry about chasing girl to save $250 for 15 minutes of sex. I actually only pay around $100-150 but I tend to have a higher level of game than most guys that are new to the sugar baby world.
Caleb,
What do you mean by polite indifference ?
I’m flirting with the sugar baby idea just because they seem easier to manage and maintain once you have an OLTR, like myself right now.
My only concern is that, once the “payment” is established, the relationship will mostly become stale and boring.
Yes, I know FBs are just for sex…but the aspect of a “regular” FB always wanting something more from you – even if on a subconscious level – makes them a joy to be around.
I don’t know if that’s the case with SBs, who are basically selling their time to be with you.
Would you care to elaborate on it?
I’d say that’s the second best thing. The first best thing is they don’t have that emotional pressure MLTRs always have on you.
A long-term FB is almost the perfect relationship.
Only 15 minutes??? Speak for yourself!!! 🙂
Yes, $150ish is very normal if you have a lot of experience with sugar daddy game, don’t live in a hugely expensive city, and limit your sugar babies to only VYW.
Cold, aloof politeness. You’re polite but never talk to her about her life, never ask her how she’s doing, demonstrate you clearly don’t care about her at all and that she’s just a piece of meat you’re polite to. If your goal is a long-term FB you need to be a little more engaging than that.
You will not get anything like this from the majority of sugar babies you will meet (though there are certainly rare exceptions). Sugar babies are friendly and can be fun to talk to, but they’re there to get paid. So if that “wanting” is something you strongly desire, I wouldn’t do sugar daddy game and stick with normal FBs (or do a mix of both like I do).
For the record I personally don’t give a shit if an FB wants me or not, but I’m an extreme INTJ and many men are different.
Welcome to the non-monogamy age of Aquarius.
A lot of the comments here seem to be at issue how you handle your women.
If you are an Alpha 2.0 then it is with finesse.
I keep a lot of my personal life to myself with FBs and if they ask I say I’m not ready to talk about that yet. I’m not rude, mind you. And they appreciate it. I don’t ask them a lot about their past either. We keep it light and flirty most of the time. It’s that or divert the conversation to something else. Interesting note: all of them are Latina. They are more respectful of my time and space. I haven’t dated a woman from the U.S. in years. And this is all part of the master plan of relocating outside of the slow sinking Titanic that is the United States.
BD how do you approach the aspect of STDs with your FBs? What is your framework for oral sex, sex without a condom (is there any with a FB?), etc.? Also in regards to not missing out on any fun aspects of sex (like squirting).
Very useful article. I have some questions:
Is watching an episode or two of a netflix series during meetings with a fb too much? Should i consider it “pushing for more” if a fb tries to get me to do it?
Does the no cuddling rule mean that all long non-sexual touch should be avoided (for example her running her hand over my knee while talking or watching something after sex)?
Is the no long emotional talks rule strict? If yes then whats the definition of “long emotional talks”?
Thanks in advance.
No wonder people with more money than game flock to places like Ukraine. $150 per week already makes her earn more than the average Ukrainian.
Knew one Gold Digger, who might have become an FB (she had already found her God Mine BF) except for the cockblocker. She wanted me to make sure she was pregnant so BF had to marry her, so the threat of exposure stopped it cold. No worries about her trying to marry me, BF made a lot more money than me.
I associate that kind of relationship with promoting a long term FB to MLTR, maybe what BD refers to as “low end” MLTR.
I use condoms on all FBs unless they have demonstrated a long-term pattern of responsible behavior with me.
Oral sex with a non-crazy FB is fine once you know what you’re dealing with, just probably not the first few times.
If she’s a crazy one (fucks lots of guys, does a lot of drugs, gets drunk a lot, and so on), then I would refrain from going down on her.
Have sex with your FBs in any way you want. I certainly do. There are no limits there.
Yes.
Yes.
No. That’s fine. Her running a hand over your knee while talking is sexual.
Not allowed with FBs.
All the Cardinal Rules are strict.
A long talk about her feelings regarding something, especially if you’re a topic in that conversation.
You could certainly do that as well but that wasn’t what I was referring to. My long-term close-friend FBs are still just FBs with whom I follow all the rules (I don’t take them on dates, don’t cuddle with them, etc).
If you want to make an FB a low-end MLTR that’s fine, but that means you’re now able to take her on dates, watch TV with her, have long talks, etc. She’s no longer an FB at that point regardless of how you feel about her.
If the question is, “Why not promote her to a low-end MLTR then?” the anwer is:
1. She may be too problematic for a non-FB relationship (she’s one of the fun but crazy ones).
2. She will now pressure you for a closer relationship a hell of a lot more, since that’s what MLTRs do. You may not want that hassle. (I certainly don’t.)
how do they demonstrate that and how do you define it?
Shit. I fucked up with this. I suggest that you are more clear with this from now on because you always say that watching a little tv with your fbs is ok and it can create misconceptions. I ‘d appreciate it if you suggested a plan of action for a half-assed (due to this misconception) downgrade although it’s against your “spesific woman question” rule.
I ‘m not sure if my question was clear. Another example is her resting her hand on my knee or caressing my shoulder while talking after sex. Are these allowed (although they are probably not considered sexual)?
At how many minutes does “long” start more or less?
Should eating be completely avoided during meetings with a fb?
Sorry for my super nitpicking questions.
Examples would be; she doesn’t fuck a lot of other guys (or if she does she makes them use condoms) and you know her well enough to have a good feel for if she’s lying to you or not, she keeps one, steady job for a long time, she pays all of her bills on time, she doesn’t do a lot of drugs / get drunk a lot, if she has a BF it’s a steady, solid, low-drama relationship that lasts a long time, etc.
When I said that I meant watching a little TV for around 10-15 minutes while you both cool down right after sex and then she leaves. I did not mean you sit there for an hour or two watching shows with her. That will send wrong messages. If that was unclear I apologize.
You can’t downgrade an FB. All you can do is next her.
That is still sexual. Thus allowed.
Dude. Seriously?
Depends on the context. If you both sit down and eat a meal together: not allowed. If you are munching on a bag of Doritos while you’re talking to her right before sex: allowed.
I think Caleb once said a test to see if you are engaging in boyfriend behavior is to ask yourself “Would I do this with a male friend?” If a friend of mine came over to my house and it seemed likely that he hadn’t had lunch yet, I’d offer him a plate of food. I’ve usually got something in the fridge. But i wouldn’t light candles and set out flowers and cook him his favorite dish. I’d follow the same rules for an FB.
I think what is confusing people here is the terminology. Based on your definition of FB it should not be a friend with benefits but an acquintance with benefits thus AB.
with a true friend you expect to do all those things. For me an FB is someone i have dinners with, watch movies have long conversations and do sleepovers maybe even travel because i do that with friends. The difference from mltr is there is no romance at all. With an AB I would follow the BD rules because shes not a friend.
Absolutely true. There are women I’ve had 1st-date with who was very into me but block/ignore my messages after. Now I get it that I was being too alpha and didn’t give them any sight of obedience.
2 FBs (that you meet weekly) + 1 OLTR sounds like a lot. Assuming you have sex with Pink Firefly 2-3 times per week, plus 2 FBs means sex 5 times per week at age 48 and with all of your busy schedule + business objectives?
The problem is, the male friend most likely won’t end up pondering, “What does this mean? What do I mean to him? He remembered to put my favorite cheese into the sandwich, am I special to him?” etc.
Are you sure that was it? I would expect a provider hunter to try to seek more meetings but in a manipulative way. What being too cold and aloof can result in is the girl thinking you aren’t interested in her and going into what Chase calls auto-rejection, convincing herself that this was because she didn’t like you to begin with.
I hope that this comment doesn’t come across as being “off topic”. With the discussion of FBs and Sugar Babies on this thread I wanted to tie in a couple of other related topics from the perspective of a foreign guy living in Asia. I’m a relatively new reader on this site and I’ve been taking a look at the various posts here on dating, day game, online dating, etc. From my experience of living in Asia for 15 years (Tokyo, Hong Kong & Manila), it sure looks like you’ve got to work a whole lot harder in the US to line up young attractive women than you do in Asia. Not to be presumptuous, but I thought that I would post some personal notes on what its like in Asia when it comes to FBs, sugar babies and the like. (Essentially, its a very different world.)
Although I dated plenty of Thai and Vietnamese women during my time in Asia, I’m going to concentrate on the women of the Philippines as I actually lived in Manila part time for five years after retiring and, for a number of reasons, I prefer Filipina women over their Thai and Viet counterparts. (I currently live in South Beach, Miami with my young, pretty wife but spend three months in Manila every year (without the wife) as I have such a good time there.)
Age: Unlike in the US, the majority of Filipina women don’t care how old you are. To a large extent, they also don’t care how attractive (or not) you are. Sure, like most women, they like good looking macho guys but they’re still going to date you even if you’re old, overweight, bald and not Brad Pitt. They simply like foreign (Western) men and the possibility of dating and having a foreign boyfriend is important to them. I’m 65 and my current girlfriend in the Philippines is a 20 year old college student. She’s tall and very attractive. (I’d give her an 8+) (I wish that it was possible to post some pictures here. I prefer to verify statements regarding the looks of women with actual photos – but I understand that’s not the policy on this site.)
Day Game: I read an article on this site recently by a famous pick-up artist and came away thinking that I would never be able to attempt a strategy like that in the US. I’m obviously too old for that kind of approach and its just too much work. On the other hand, in the Philippines my approach to day game is simple, straight forward and highly effective. To be honest, since I’m usually dating 2/3 women at a time when I’m in Manila, I usually don’t go out on “hunting missions” looking for girls but take advantage of the situation as the opportunities present themselves.
First off, Manila does not have pedestrian street traffic and there are virtually no parks in Manila. This is a mall culture. People hang out in the malls because of the free air conditioning and lots of inexpensive dining options. There are almost always plenty of good looking girls in the malls. If I’m at a mall by myself and I see a girl that I like my approach is simple. I put on a nice smile and go right up to her and say, “Hello. I don’t mean to bother/disturb you but I find you very attractive and I’d really like the chance to take you out for dinner/drinks. Here’s my phone number. [Hand her a piece of paper with my name and phone number on it] I really hope to hear from you. Thank you.” Then simply walk away. I know that this sounds like hubris or exaggeration, but I usually get a text within 2/3 hours from around 75% of the women that I approach. And I’ll approach them whether they’re alone, with friends or having lunch or whatever. (Well, usually not if they’re with their boyfriend.)
The only variation on this is in the department stores. Most of the department stores in Manila have literally hundreds of girls working in them as sales ladies and cashiers. Most of the sales ladies are a little on the short side for my taste but there are some real cute ones with nice curvy bodies. Since these girls are always surrounded by their co-workers, and to avoid embarrassing them, I’ll simply walk up to them say “hi” and hand them my “business card” and turn and walk away. Still, I have about the same success rate. Its a total riot.
By the way, if you do meet a girl this way, and you actually do get together, the probability of having sex is around 100%.
Seeking Arrangement/Sugar Babies: On my most recent trip to Manila I slept with five women that I met on Seeking Arrangement within the first 10 days that I was in Manila. They were all in the 8+ range. I was just trying to figure out which ones I wanted to spend more time with (as part time girlfriends) when the Coronavirus hit and Manila was placed on lockdown. I went with the 20 year old college girl that I mentioned above and she basically lived with me for seven weeks. I gave her an allowance of P 12,500 (US $250) a week. She was so much fun (sex) that, if travel normalizes, I’m planning on meeting her in Amalfi/Capri for a week in September and then taking her to Barbados for two weeks in December. (It feels like love – but don’t tell my wife.)
On the point made in the thread above by BD regarding dating sugar babies, I have to admit that I don’t understand BDs position that sugar babies should never be considered as anything but FBs. And also his admonition of not getting into a real, dating relationship with a sugar baby. Personally, I’ve found dating sugar babies to be a lot of fun. Some of these sugar babies make for serious arm candy (particularly on an older guy’s arm) and its fun to take them out for dinner all dressed up and also on nice romantic vacations.* But at my age, I guess that I’ve already missed the “time bombs” that BD warns about. Maybe its just semantics, but to me, Sugar Babies are an entirely separate category from FBs. FBs are more like the girls I meet from doing day game, at a bar or on Tinder and only see on an occasional basis and just for sex. (I noticed that there isn’t a definition of “Sugar Babies” in the BD glossary so maybe I’m just missing the technical application of this term as it is used on this site.)
By the way, you will see some Philippine women describe themselves in their SA profiles as “submissive” and “clingy”. If they’re attractive, you might want to grab those girls. They’ll usually do pretty much whatever you want in bed.
Tinder: While some women on Tinder in the Philippines are picky about looks and age I would say that a lot of them don’t care. They’re just looking for a date and, in some instances, a boyfriend. (By the way, Tinder is very popular in the Philippines and there are usually a number of good looking women on the site.) Having said that, please be aware that some of the women on Tinder in the Philippines are there for P4P.
High Society Girls: There are a number of rich girls, models and actresses/tv personalities living in Manila. A lot of these girls are tall and flat out beautiful. Please disregard everything I said above when it comes to the HiSo girls. Unless you are a 25 year old Italian model and wear your hair in one of those man-bun thingies these girls are not going to date you. They don’t do day game, Seeking Arrangement or any of that stuff. (Although you might get lucky and find a few on Tinder.)
Sorry for the length of this post but hope that some of the information was useful.
*I have to admit, however, that I found the Seeking Arrangement experience to be very different and unpleasant when I tried it in NYC and Miami. There were a lot of really attractive women in NYC and Miami on SA but they were so avaricious, greedy and money grubbing. Plus they could turn so nasty so fast. Seems to me like its a real “sellers” market in NYC and Miami whereas in Manila you’re probably going to have a lot more fun for a whole lot less money.
Haha. Well, in my fridge it’s mozzarella. If they don’t like that, they are shit out of luck.
That is completely pointless. We have no way of knowing or verifying if its a girl you dated or a random pic from internet. There is also nothing that special about getting an attractive girl from sugar daddy website especially in Asia. Almost anyone can do that.
It is not about whether shes from sugar daddy site but whether you are paying her. Hopefully you understand perfectly why in the second case.
BD,
What is the average amount of time you spend with an FB?
What about an SB?
I’ve found that 2.5 hours from “walk in the door” to “walk out the door” is pretty average for me. Usually the first 60-90 minutes is spent chatting (this is where the “friend” aspect of it comes in for those of you confused above in the comments) and the rest of it is spent fucking. Maybe include 10-20 minutes of pillow talk after sex before she leaves.
Does this match up with your times as well? Or are your meets shorter/longer?
Thanks!
That’s an MLTR. If you want to change my definitions for yourself then go right ahead, but realize you’re following a different system than what I teach.
That’s not what she thinks.
Correct. I like to have a lot of sex.
That is usually the case, yes, though often I see one FB per week instead of both in the same week.
Sex doesn’t take very long… maybe an hour at the most if you include all the details. So even if I did it 8 or 9 times a week it would be no problem.
1.5ish hours or so.
No difference. I don’t treat SBs any different than I treat non-SB FBs.
You’re pushing the envelope slightly, but it’s technically okay. But as another commenter already noted, I don’t have a lot of free time so spending 2.5 hours every time I saw an FB would not be compatible with my busy schedule so I would never spend that much time (with an FB). But nothing you’re describing is drastically outside the rules.
Read item #1 here.
Yep, I figured it even through my limited experience with them. Advantages are they don’t give a shit about other women in your life, and they tend to be way more straight and to the point about dates and sex (they flake less too).
Guess you can’t have it all though…thx for the reply.
@Mark: If I’m not mistaken, BD said numerous times Philippines has some of the horniest people on this planet. You are a shark phishing with dynamite there if you are caucasian and have game. Even so, kudos to your adventures, I’m glad to see older dudes hitting it around the globe.
@AlphaOmega
I just wanted to politely reply to a couple of your points on the comment I posted above:
“There is also nothing that special about getting an attractive girl from sugar daddy website especially in Asia. Almost anyone can do that.”
Yes, that’s my point entirely. Unlike the struggles with the avaricious and often nasty, but beautiful women, that you can find on Seeking Arrangement in the US (not to mention the outrageous amount of money that those women expect for the smallest services), in Asia even unattractive Western men (of any age) can find themselves beautiful girlfriends/lovers that they would almost never be able to obtain in the US for what in respect is a very small outlay. I’m glad that you got the point.
“It is not about whether shes from sugar daddy site but whether you are paying her. Hopefully you understand perfectly why in the second case.”
In terms of paying for sex, I think that maybe you are only seeing this from the limited American (Western) perspective. There is a real difference between paying for sex in the West as opposed to the long-standing cultural norm in Asia of foreign men “keeping” Asian women. Keeping a woman in Asia is not at all considered prostitution or paying for sex even though it entails a monetary aspect. (Take a look at Graham Greene’s “The Quiet American” with the older British journalist vying with the young American CIA agent for the affections of the beautiful Vietnamese girl in Saigon.)
While the quaintness of Graham Greene’s world no longer exists, there are literally 1000s upon 1000s of foreign men (of all ages) who “keep” Asian women as their girlfriends. They provide these girls with a monthly allowance to cover the girl’s living expenses. Quite often the Asian woman is far more attractive than her foreign boyfriend. Is that “paying for sex” or prostitution?
And how do foreign men find these women? Sometimes on dating sites, sometimes in bars in Asia and sometimes on sites like Seeking Arrangement. It doesn’t really matter as long as they end up with a girlfriend who is a lot more attractive than anything that he’s going to be able to find in the West with the only obligation of paying a fairly nominal monthly allowance.
If you ask one of these guys if they are paying for sex or if their girlfriend is a prostitute you would most likely receive a rather unpleasant response.
But, hey, even if you really do think that its paying for sex (and even if paying for sex makes you less of an Alpha 2.0 Man) I would still highly recommend it. These Asian girls are Hot. Sometimes you’ve just got to break the rules.
Hey Mark,
I have no problem with paying for a woman, or with someone else doing that. I am just agreeing with BD that its insane to expect or want a real emotional connection with a woman who stays with you for monetary – transaction basis. Its healthy to keep the separation.
Yes we agree that is much easier to get attractive women on seeking arrangement and or in Asia. So my point was that you don’t need to show us proof (not that you need to for any other type of dating) since we all know its very easily realistic.
Occasionally there is some guy here who claims 96% first date success in the west, that I wouldn’t believe though, but again I wouldn’t care about evidence.
All of that is accurate and literally none of it addresses any of my points regarding the negatives of paying for sex I’ve stated in this thread or here or here.
“That’s the way these people do it” is not an argument.
It is. Stop paying these women and then try to have repeated sex with them and watch what happens.
It doesn’t as long as you meet the two criteria I laid out here. I am not against the practice of paying for sex. I’m against it when you can’t afford to do it or when you’re doing it because you (incorrectly) feel it’s your only option for having sex with attractive/younger women.
If you’re under the age of 60 you don’t need to pay hot Asian girls in order to have sex with them. That’s what you’re not understanding.
Over the last 13 years have had sex with numerous hot, young (age 18-23) Asian girls who live in the US (including fresh-off-the-boat ones) without paying them a penny. Curvy Asian girls are my second-favorite type of woman after Barbie blondes so I’ve had many. In two instances the girl was the one who usually paid when we went out. If you look through my archive you’ll see I’ve described many of them in detail.
Incidentally today one sugar baby told me how she thinks the guys who seek (emotional) relationship with women they are paying are sick. So there you go for you guys who are wondering what is wrong with doing more than FB with women you are paying. What do you think those women think about you? Do you think the woman I talked to is the only one in thinking that if you do that you are a dumb ass with mental problems?
Tbh it’s against my morality values to be with a girl who’s cheating on a monogamous boyfriend. Is this going to come up a LOT and be a hassle?
Of course not. Most of my FBs have not had boyfriends (at the moment both of my current FBs don’t have boyfriends and it’s been fine). It’s just a little easier when they do.
Absolutely. If you live in SE Asia and have even a little bit of game, and understand the way things work, you don’t need to limit yourself to P4P, even in the softer forms (sugar babies).
Jakarta, Indonesia.
Yes, I was talking about an MLTR to FB downgrade that was half-assed.
Okay it seems that I dont undrestand the differences of sexual vs romantic touch. Can you elaborate on that? Is all touch but cuddling allowed? And if yes, how exactly is a cuddle defined: Lying or sitting relaxing couple pose that contains a hug or one person’s head resting on the other person’s chest? So all other lying or sitting relaxing couple poses that contain touch are ok?
Yes. Having to avoid 30+ minute emotional talks is verydifferent than avoiding any talk that tends to last 5+ minutes for example. That’s why I’m asking.
Again, sorry for the nitpicking.
Aye – I don’t have the ability to answer your nitpick questions. I did my best. Perhaps someone else here can help you, or you can join the SMIC Program where I and others can take more time to help you.
Hey Caleb. I’ve noticed that you have changed the tone of your blog posts through the last couple of years (seems more “polite” if that makes any sense). Any reason for this change? Not a complaint, just genuinely curious.
Yes. What you’re detecting is not politeness, but more posts focused on advice rather than opinion or analysis. Advice posts are going to be less caustic than opinion/analysis posts, but my politeness has not gone down. Go see my recent political posts over at calebjonesblog.com, like this one, and you’ll see what I mean.
About two years ago I polled the audience on what kinds of blog posts they wanted to see here and most of them said they wanted more advice and less opinion, so I did that.
I m saying you didnt use SEO because you are not positionned on any major keyword related to a qualified audience.
And the only keywords that bring you organic traffic are “blackdragonblog” or “blackdragon” wich are not really seo keywords
Incorrect. Most of the past images have 4-5 keywords embedded, as one example.
I never focused on SEO since it’s an irritatingly constantly moving target and when your funds and time are limited there are better marketing methods. But it’s not like I haven’t done any.
Hey BD, got dumped by my ex recently and I followed your advice. (Also was I in so much emotional pain, I bought all your books lol – the open relationship and online dating one) She started texting and dating someone before the relationship ended but after going no contact she shot me a text and we hooked up. I guess we’re FB‘s now but I didn’t really label it. If she comes back do you think it’s possible to re-entice NRE? I really wish I had your book before I started dating her.
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
Damn. Appreciate it BD!