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-By Caleb Jones
Today I will be debating Sebastiaan Vaz, who believes that my advice about not complimenting a woman's appearance to get to sex faster is dead wrong. Please click here for a full description of my opinion on this issue, so you know what Sebastiaan is disagreeing with.
Therefore, the topic of the debate is:
Sincerely complimenting a woman in a flirtatious way, either about her personality or her body, dramatically speeds up the time to sex.
Sebastiaan will be arguing FOR. I will be arguing AGAINST.
There are five debate rules that Sebastiaan and I will be adhering to. They are listed here. If you would like to debate me publicly on this blog in the next Great Blackdragon Debate on any other topic, under the same set of rules, then either email me or leave a comment below starting with the words "Debate Topic."
Sebastiaan's comments will be in dark blue like this, while my comments will be in the usual font. Since I'm full of love and graciousness, I let Sebastiaan start and end the debate.
Let the battle begin!!!
You should compliment women because it is charming to do such a thing.
Why is it charming? Because it:
1. Makes her feel better about herself. Everyone loves to be complimented at, especially women as they typically have a low self-esteem.
2. Makes her feel special. The more you give out sincere compliments to a beautiful girl, the more she will feel special to you.
ALL women want to feel special. Here’s why:
1. Women naturally want to feel special because they are the ones who have to become pregnant and thus are much more vulnerable. They therefore unconsciously look for a man who truly cares about them, who protects them and stays devoted to them. If she’s not that special to him why would he care to stay devoted to her?
2. Due to social conditioning, a beautiful girl will never go to bed with you on the very first day you get to know her just because you think she’s hot. But when you make clear she’s very special to you by specifically complimenting her about the things which you adore in her, she can and will use that as an excuse to go to bed with you (If she likes you) on the very first day you meet her. Like: “I shouldn’t go to bed with him but he makes me feel so good and we have something special…”
Therefore, a man must be charming to successfully get the highest rate of lays possible within his lifetime.
It’s maybe not necessary, but it definitely improves your attractiveness as women want a man who is attracted to them.
You can also compliment a woman non-verbally simply by looking at her with a smile, checking her out, holding eye contact, smelling her hair, continuously holding her hands etc.
I agree that everyone wants to feel better about themselves in a general sense, but disagree with you regarding your specifics.
As I have talked about before, just about every woman who’s a 5 or over has had men tell her hundreds of times throughout her life that she’s hot or whatever. This includes overweight women and mildly ugly women too. (Most men will fuck anything.)
I promise you that being the 524th man to say this to her in no way makes her feel special. She already knows she’s hot, that most men want to have sex with her, and that YOU want to have sex with her. Repeating this to her is, as I’ve said before, like walking up to a rich man and saying “Wow! You’re rich!” It accomplishes nothing other than to categorize you as another typical, horny dude who wants to do her.
I agree that complimenting on something that has nothing whatsoever to do with her appearance can be okay. It can elicit some positive results assuming you are doing everything else correctly, such as being confident, relaxed, and outcome independent.
If you are a very outcome independent guy out on a first date with a 9, and you don’t mention anything about how she looks but do mention that she’s “unusually perceptive” or has a “unique energy” (credit goes to Mystery on that one, and it still works) then sure, that can help. But if you compliment her energy amidst comments about how beautiful she is, all power in that technique is lost.
- Complimenting on appearance = bad. You decrease your odds for first-time sex and/or reduce the speed to sex.
- Complimenting on something other than appearance while keeping a very outcome independent frame and not mentioning appearance at all = okay.
The fact that beautiful girls get compliments a million times does not matter at all. When giving compliments, you don't need to be original at all. You need to be sincere and specific.
It's all about making her feel special TO YOU, not in general. She indeed knows she's hot, but she wants a masculine man who thinks she's hot as well, and that's exactly my point here.
You can't compare complimenting a beautiful girl on her looks to complimenting a man on his wealth, here's why:
Almost ALL women, no matter beautiful or not, want constant validation regarding their looks because they know that their looks will bring them the highest chances of finding a worthy (masculine) male. And like I said, they typically have low self-esteem so they love the validation.
Wealthy men don't care about other people's opinion about their wealth, so of course they don't care at all if you walk up to them complimenting them on their wealth, unless they as well, seek validation.
I will state it again: Women want a masculine man who is attracted to them. I explained in my previous comment why.
You demonstrate your attraction for her by the way you compliment and flirt with her.
Also, before you can sleep with a woman, you first need to demonstrate your sexual interest in her anyways, so why not do so immediately by boldly and shamelessly flirting with her the very second you get to know her?
Women absolutely LOVE a charming, non-needy, and masculine man who constantly tells them how beautiful and special they are.
If you worry about lowering your value when complimenting her, you clearly have a problem with social conditioning believing that you somehow need to earn beautiful women, and that you can't simply go directly after them.
I agree that women want constant validation of their looks and typically have low self-esteem. I disagree that men don't care about other people's opinion of their wealth. Some don't, but many become wealthy and/or flaunt/brag about their wealth for exactly that reason, but I don't want to get off track.
A hot woman I'm on a date with already knows I'm physically attracted to her. She's not a moron and doesn't need me to tell her. She knows this via my time, interest, questions, kino, and perhaps non-appearance-based compliments. She'll certainly know this when I try to have sex with her!
To suggest that in a dating/seduction scenario women need verbal confirmation that you want to have sex with them doesn't make any sense.
Why not compliment her boldly and shamelessly? Because it reduces the odds, even if just a little, of you having sex with her, or at least having sex with her as quickly. You can prove this yourself: it goes back to my 20-date challenge. Go on 10 first dates and don't compliment their looks AT ALL, then go on another 10 and slather them with compliments about their appearance, even if done in a non-needy way. You will lay more women in the first group, and faster.
It has nothing to do with my social conditioning. It's has to do with the fact that a small chunk of attraction is lost if you tell her she's beautiful or hot. Again, I'm not saying it's "impossible" to sex a woman quickly while complimenting looks. Many players have above-average appearance and strong game which can overcome this. I'm saying that if they, or even the typical guy, refrains from doing this, his odds of sex will go up and his speed to sex will increase, all other variables being equal.
If a wealthy man does care about other people's opinion of his wealth, then it will make him feel better of himself whenever he's complimented on it. If he considers his OWN opinion of himself more important, then, whether your compliment or insult him, it won't matter to him at all, as he trusts his own opinion the most. This applies to everything somebody may have, be, or do. Not only wealth.
To say that a hot woman you're dating already knows you find her hot MIGHT be true, but never necessarily has to be so since most women doubt their looks, intelligence, and/or appearance all the time.
When did I say that women need VERBAL confirmation that you want to have sex with them? All I said is that women want a man who is attracted to them. HOW you demonstrate your attraction for her is another, and one of those ways is indeed to verbally compliment her, but I never said it HAS to be verbal.
You don't state valid arguments for why you shouldn't compliment her boldly and shamelessly. You simply state YOUR OWN EXPERIENCES. Your 20-date challenge is based on wrong conclusions since if your mindset is wrong about attracting women (social conditioning), you'll obviously behave very differently whenever you compliment a beautiful woman, and behavior is the main attractive quality of males.
This issue has, in my opinion, everything to do with your social conditioning. It is in my eyes ridiculous to read something like this. I'm sure however, that most will disagree with me, simply because they too are influenced by social conditioning.
Whether a man is an "above-average appearance", or the typical guy, all that matters when complimenting an incredibly hot woman is that he does not appear desperate, eager, or needy for her.
I am not stating just my own experiences. Numerous men, and I mean a lot, have told me they used to verbally compliment women's appearance pre-sex, and when they stopped they got laid more often and/or faster.
1. You're saying that my 20-date example won't work because my "mindset is wrong." Alright then. Please tell me exactly and specifically how to compliment a woman with my mindset "right," so that doing so will make fast sex more likely. Please be very specific and use a specific example(s). Other men have said things like "Just say it confidently and it works" but that's not specific nor helpful.
2. Are you saying that if I complement but don't do it verbally then I'm following your advice? Because I do indeed "compliment" women non-verbally during a first date constantly, via things like passionate eye contact, kino, deep questions, sex talk, etc.
If you think complimenting non-verbally is an asset, then we're in agreement. My only objection is to VERBAL complimenting of a woman's APPEARANCE.
Numerous men, and I mean EVERYBODY, is influenced badly by social conditioning.
I already told you how to compliment a woman verbally on her appearance, but I will reiterate myself.
You should verbally compliment a beautiful girl on her appearance by doing it sincerely and specifically without appearing needy, desperate, or eager for her and/or sex.
Besides, a man should be confident and responsible in everything that he does. Both are necessary because women are naturally attracted to confidence, and they naturally want a man to take responsibility, since they are the more vulnerable species.
Therefore, if a man is confident and responsible, and he does not appear desperate, needy, or eager for sex (which is the opposite of charm in my definition), then he can verbally or nonverbally compliment a woman as much and as long as he wants, as long as he stays sincere and specific, and remains charming.
I can’t explain social conditioning, and all the characteristics of confidence, charm, and responsibility – which in my eyes means having the right mindset – in a max 1700 character comment.
Non verbally complimenting women is even better than verbally doing it, so yes we are definitely in an agreement with that, but I am also saying that verbally complimenting a woman is perfectly fine as well and actually helps me seduce them a lot. That’s after all why I started this issue with you.
I recommend you to read “The Manual – What Women Want And How To Give It To Them” by W. Anton.
Everything I say and do is based on that book, and it has changed my life dramatically. I’m sure your view on this will change as soon as you’ll read it, it’s a best seller after all, and has changed my life for ever.
Okay. I'm a non-needy, confident, outcome independent Alpha Male. I'm on a first date with a woman I think has really beautiful, exotic eyes. So in a confident way, I look at her deeply and say, "You know, you have really exotic and beautiful eyes. I love them." I'm doing exactly what you recommended. I am being sincere, specific, in a way not eager for sex at all, and from a very non-needy, confident place. And I have still reduced the odds of fast sex from this woman, even if just a little tiny bit. Because, as I've said before, I am now weaker in her eyes, and more like the other 200 men who have probably told her she has pretty eyes a thousand times.
We're at the point where we're both repeating ourselves, so we're probably done unless you have something new to add.
I've heard of the book but never read it. I'll check it out.
So you now actually fully admitted that you indeed are fully influenced by social conditioning by saying that you are weaker in her eyes after complimenting her verbally.
Social conditioning teaches males that they are inadequate, or unworthy of beautiful females until after they have proven their worth to society. This has somehow given you (and countless of other males) the belief that you can’t compliment beautiful girls verbally because you’ll somehow be “weaker” in her eyes.
I will quote a few lines from the book for you:
“Complimenting a woman’s character is the most original way to make her feel good, but of course she also wants to hear that she is attractive. All women, no matter how certain they appear, want to hear from someone else that they look sexy and beautiful, which is the combination of looking feminine, fertile, young, and healthy. Telling women sincerely that they are beautiful should not be a problem, though, as beautiful females are the only females you really want and the only ones you should be flirting with.
It is a mistake to think a woman has heard all such compliments before and that means you should avoid giving them to set yourself apart from other males. Only males with the wrong mindset, concerned with being unworthy of women, worry about such things.”
The definition “male” in the book is defined as an unattractive beta male. So as for Anton’s definition you’re actually not that Alpha!
You definitely need this book. Like I said, it will change your opinion on this.
You and Anton might be 100% right about the social conditioning, but you want to keep talking about what I'm thinking or what she's thinking. I'm only talking about what she actually DOES, which is whether or not she has sex with a new man quickly, or not. And if you verbally compliment her appearance, the odds of this happening go down at least a little bit.
Anton is, like you, talking about what women want, and pre-sex I don't care what they want. All I care about is what works best to get to sex quickly. This is why you should never take seduction advice from women; they'll talk about what they want which almost never has anything to do with how fast they'll actually take their panties off and fuck a guy. If she has sex with me very fast while thinking I'm a sort of a selfish jerk because I didn't say she was pretty, that's a win for me.
We're done. I'll let you make the final statement and wrap things up, and the readers can decide who's right.
Where talking about what women want sexually. That’s also what Anton means.
Doesn’t it sound right when we say: “You have to give women what they want sexually in order to quickly have sex with them”?
You actually never even gave a valid argument for why the odds go down whenever you compliment a woman verbally. And if you say that it makes you “weaker” because everyone else does so as well, then that’s a complete wrong assumption based on a wrong mindset.
Women probably don’t have sex with you any faster whenever you verbally compliment them, simply because you believe it DOES make you more unattractive, and therefore you’ll automatically behave less confident. Again, an issue with your mindset.
Anton actually says as well that you should never listen to female dating advice, so on that we agree as well. Anton is simply stating what women naturally, by instinct want, and that is, among other qualities, a charming man. How he is charming does not really matter, so verbally or nonverbally doesn’t matter at all.
I’m actually also curious to why you would think that nonverbally complimenting does work, but verbally complimenting does not. It’s basically the same way of saying: “I like you”.
As soon as you’ve read the book, you will email me and say: “You’re right after all.” Trust me.
I actually care about you and the BD blog simply because I think it absolutely ROCKS. Your advice is rock solid, I just want it to be “perfect”
And that's it folks! Please comment who you think won the debate, and why. I hope this has been educational and entertaining. Thank you Sebastiaan for a spirited battle of wits! And if you would like to debate me next, start your comment with "Debate Topic" and I'll add you to the debate list.
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