10 Oct What Do You Give Up in a Nonmonogamous Marriage?
DJ asks an interesting question in a recent comment:
Reading other manosphere blogs I get the impression that they perceive open relationships as “alpha fucks beta bucks” kind of thing, where the woman gets your commitment (beta bux) plus sex with hot guys on the side who don’t give commitment (alpha fux), i.e. she fulfills her female imperative and gets your valuable asset (commitment), while you don’t get her valuable asset (sexual exclusivity). If you could write a post to address that fear/point of view men have, I think it could become a very important post and make more guys open to your ideas.
-By Caleb Jones
This is one of those things where, even if I explain it fully, I’m not going to change any minds. If you’re a hardcore Alpha Male 1.0, or alt-right-winger, or typical angry manosphere devotee, you’re not going to support the concept of nonmonogamous relationships or marriage no matter what facts I present to you. You’re just going to clench your fists, burn with anger, and tell me I’m crazy. “Fuck facts, statistics, biology, psychology, and history! Fuck all that, and fuck you Blackdragon! You’re just a dumb cuck who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about! You’re not Alpha!”
Then once you calm down, you’re going to continue your search for your Unicorn Woman who doesn’t exist, eventually get legally married and monogamous because That’s What A Real Man Does™, and eventually get your ass handed to you in a divorce, which is what older manosphere and PUA gurus always end up doing. Once you’re in family court, spending thousands of dollars for the right to see your own children, then, maybe, maybe you’ll be able see reality at that point. Maybe.As I’ve said before, I get “Okay BD you were right” emails on a regular basis from manosphere and PUA guys who bashed me several years before regarding my views on sexual monogamy, who got monogamous and then a few years later broke up and/or became divorced just like I said they would.
As I’ve also said before, if you are an Alpha Male, you are less capable of making long-term monogamy work than the typical beta. The typical beta out there who’s only had sex with six women in his entire life has less bad odds of making a lifetime monogamous marriage work than the former PUA or player Alpha Male who’s banged 87 women before finally getting married and monogamous (just because he’s crossed over age 35 and suddenly realizes he wants to have kids or something like that).
Once the NRE dies down, that guy’s going to cheat like a mad dog, and his Western wife isn’t going to tolerate that shit in the long run no matter how Alpha he is or how religious or virginal she is. She’ll divorce his ass, take his house and his kids, and then he’ll go right back to the angry manosphere sites and bitch about how “selfish” and “disloyal” women are “today.”
That’s the background. Let’s get into the actual argument.
Let’s compare three scenarios…
Scenario 1: Alpha Fux, Beta Bux
This is the typical scenario the manosphere warns about, and one I described a few years ago when I talked about the Story of Poindexter. This is when a cute girl goes around and fucks a bunch of players and Alphas during her 20s, then snags an average looking (or even slightly ugly), submissive, sexually inexperienced, higher income beta male to marry sometime in her late twenties or thirties.
She then lives off of his income while he worships the ground she walks on, despite her reduced sexual market value as an over-30 woman. Per the monogamous model, at some point between the wedding and the three year mark, she gets bored and backs off on the sex. Being a beta, he puts up with it.
She receives: money, commitment
He receives: sexual exclusivity (maybe; don’t forget our historically high infidelity stats)Clearly, she gets the better deal. They both get commitment but she gets money too. He doesn’t get any money. As a matter of fact, he now has to spend more money since being married is more expensive than being single when you’re a man. She also gets a lot of sex before she gets married (from her Alpha fux), but the beta gets little or no sex before the marriage (since he’s a beta and not getting laid much) and after three year mark, when feminine married boredom sets in and sex with her husband becomes ew-icky.
Eventually, she follows the statistics and divorces his ass. Then…
She receives: free money
He receives: nothing
So yeah, Alpha fux and beta bux is a bad deal for a man. No question about it.
Now let’s look at what these manosphere guys recommend…
Scenario 2: The Manosphere-Approved Marriage, i.e. “Alpha Disney”
This is the kind of marriage that would be approved by manosphere guys like Roosh and Heartiste, as well as many men in the alt-right movement like Vox Day, Gavin McInnes, and numerous others. This is when you Alpha-up in your 20s and early 30s, and have sex with a lot of “sluts” (their word, not mine). You learn pickup skills and get really good at getting laid. You fuck scores, if not hundreds of women and have a great time.
Then, around age 35 or older, when your cock is bent in half from overuse, you suddenly realize you want to settle down but have no idea how. Following your emotions, religion and Societal Programming rather than reality, facts and objectivity, you search for your 22 year-old virgin or near virgin Unicorn Woman who hasn’t been with very many men and has a submissive personality. After years of frustrating searching you finally think you find her, rejoice, and get legally married, putting the gun of the state to your head. (You don’t bother with a prenuptial agreement. You don’t need one because You Know What You’re Doing™ and She’s A Christian™ and thus She’s Not Like The Rest™.)
You don’t want her to work, because A Woman’s Place Is In The Home™ and I’ll Take Care Of Her™, so you financially support her…just like the beta financially supports his wife (or close to it).
Being the Alpha Male 1.0 you are, you spend the next several years bossing her around and running her life. During the first year or two, when NRE is still going strong, she loves it and cooperates. Over time, she starts to get tired of it and fights back. Drama and arguments are commonplace in your marriage, but you don’t care. A Real Man Stands His Ground™ and Laws Down The Law™, so you just keep right on with the drama and justify that it’s “worth it.”
You crank out two or three kids with her (or more!) because That’s What A Real Man Does™ and That’s What Jesus Wants™. Once New Baby NRE is over, happiness drops and stress increases for both of you. Finally you can’t stand it anymore and go get laid with some hot young babe on the side. You do your best to keep your wife from finding out, but that’s impossible for you, so she catches you. Enter drama unleashed from hell. Now you’re truly in an Alpha Male 1.0 marriage.
So what’s the breakdown this time?
She receives: money, commitment for a while until you cheat
He receives: sexual exclusivity (maybe; don’t forget our historically high infidelity stats)
Hmm. Doesn’t that look familiar? Why yes, it’s almost the same as the beta male marriage. She gets your money, you get sexual exclusivity (maybe). The only difference is that the commitment she gets from you is temporary, i.e. she gets commitment only until she catches you cheating on her, which she will.
But let’s continue.
Eventually, things snap, and you join the statistics of the 70%+ divorce odds for people getting married in the Western world today. Then you find yourself in family divorce court, fighting for the right to see your own kids while avoiding alimony, while standing right next to the beta male above, who is also getting divorced.
It’s worse for you though, since unlike that beta, you’re going to fight. Because That Bitch Isn’t Taking My Kids™. The divorce goes from bad to worse. When the dust settles, after thousands of dollars of attorney fees and stress the likes of which you’ve never experienced, you’re right back on the manosphere web sites again, screaming about how horrible women are.
She receives: free money
He receives: nothing
You could argue that the man also received children, but as I’ve explained many times before (seemingly to deaf ears sometimes), you can have and raise children without legal marriage or sexual monogamy. I have two chapters in my book on exactly how to do that.
Alright. Enough of those two nightmares. Now let’s look a third scenario, the Alpha Male 2.0 version I endorse.Scenario 3: The nonmonogamous marriage (OLTR Marriage, Swinger Marriage, or something similar)
In this scenario, you start out just like the manosphere guy. You Alpha-up, build up your pickup and dating skills, and get laid a lot. However, you know in advance that this get laid phase is just a temporary phase in your life. When you get a little older, you’re going to want to settle down, you know this is coming, and you prepare for this mentally, emotionally, and financially while you’re having sex with all these hot babes.Eventually, one woman rises above all the rest, qualifies for OLTR, and you slowly, carefully move her into that role, following all the rules, without getting stupid, Disney delusional, or oneitis. You move in with her under the auspices of an enforceable co-habitation agreement. You do not legally marry her, or if you’re lucky enough to live in a region that allows for an enforceable prenuptial agreement (and most places in the Western world do not), you marry her with one of those.
You keep right on fucking women on the side, and she’s aware of it. Will she fuck men on the side too? She might, she might not. Based on my experience, it’s about a 50/50 chance. Let’s take the worst case scenario and say she does, at least eventually. Even if she does, she doesn’t do it consistently like you are; she only does it very sporadically and there are many years where she doesn’t do it at all.
You have kids with her if you both want them, but unlike the beta and the manosphere Alpha 1.0, you have kids in a way where you have a huge amount of legal protection in case of a later breakup or divorce, which you know is statistically likely no matter how Alpha you are or how submissive or virginal she is.You financially take care of her only if you want. Perhaps you do. Or perhaps you’ll do what I would do, and you tell her that she must have a job and her own income at all times and that she needs to pull her weight in terms of financially supporting the household, at least as much as she’s able. “You wanted equality with men,” you tell her, “Well, now you’ve got it, Sweetheart. Get your ass to work, and hand over your paycheck to me when you get paid so I can pay our mutual rent and living expenses.”
Unlike the beta male, she can’t tell you want to do. If she tries, you just laugh and ignore her. Unlike the Alpha Male 1.0, you don’t tell her what to do either, so drama is minimal.
She receives: companionship
He receives: companionship
Neither party receives money. Neither party receives sexual exclusivity. Unlike with the first two scenarios, neither party receives more than the other. It’s not perfect, but it’s fair. He doesn’t get screwed.
But there’s still that pesky 70% divorce rate, right? Does doesn’t that still apply? Yes, it does. Eventually she divorces him because that’s what most women do. And…nothing happens. She just moves out and gets no money (unless he wants to give her some because he feels its fair, but that’s completely up to him). He keeps right on having sex with his side-women just as always. If they have kids, there is no legal battle; they just do what the pre-filed parenting plan says to do. It’s not fun getting divorced of course, but there is no lasting damage to his finances, his sex life, or his fatherhood.
None of these three scenarios are perfect, but which of them is least bad for the man?
I already know the answer, but you be the judge.
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WolfOfGeorgeStreet
Posted at 06:33 am, 10th October 2016The reason the manosphere looks at open marriage/relationships as a raw deal for the man is because of the ease that the woman can get laid on the side for free vs the massive amounts of time, effort and expense that it takes for the man to get laid (and all of these things will increase significantly once you are living with a woman). As well as the man losing his biggest leverage in picking up girls, the potential for future commitment (he’s called a player for a reason).
While they are correct, the reality is that the woman simply won’t be as motivated to look outside the marriage/relationship even when she has the mans blessing to do so if she is getting all her sexual and emotional needs met by the man.
The two most critical things I see that are required for a man to be in a live in OLTR/OM are:
– Having the money needed to see women on the side while still fulfilling his financial commitments at home (and her fulfilling hers) and the freedom to spend his money on other women as needed (drinks, dinners, hotels if she can’t host and he can’t bring her home etc.)
– Ensuring that the woman in the OLTR/OM is a good fit for such an arrangement. That usually means (but not always) looking for the sort of girl manosphere types are looking for for marriage anyway. The problem is that they think that the sort of girl that would agree to such a relationship would not be worth marrying (catch 22 in their minds). When, in fact, the very girls they’re looking for (even already married to or in a ‘monogamous’ relationship with) would usually agree to it, if they handled it correctly
If they ensure they follow the above 2 points, it won’t be the cuckold type of open marriage/relationship they are thinking of.
What they’re imagining is being in a relationship with these dominant, high sex drive, openly ‘polyamorous’ and proud of it, feminist girls that they think are the only types that are interested in these sort of relationships. These sort of girls are usually not the most attractive, and will aggressively chase very good looking alpha guys and sometimes be used as a quick pump and dump by such guys (but can usually never keep them), and will settle for a (or a couple of) beta cucks longer term, while still aggressively chasing super good looking alpha guys on the side for sex.
As for not being able to leverage the potential for future commitment to land girls, it’s true that this does make the game more difficult. Also SP relating to men in relationships and ESPECIALLY marriage (whether or not it’s open) can be hard for some girls to overcome. The best way to get around this is to be very clear with girls that you’re not looking for anything serious, then only come clean about the OLTR/OM after the second time you’ve had sex, while selling her on the benefits of being with a man in an OLTR/OM, ie. not being clingy, wanting a relationship, no jealousy etc.
Nitpicunt
Posted at 07:43 am, 10th October 2016The importance of the pre agreed parenting plan cannot be overstated. I do have doubts about the enforcing part though. Any statistics on the issue? Would the odds of getting an enforceable one be lower or higher than with the prenup? My guess would be that depending on the place where you live either both or neither work. Because if a pre-nup can be broken or misinterpreted or ignored, there is no reason a parenting plan shouldn´t face the same fate. Both are voluntarily entered contracts theoretically done at the same stage of the relationship with pre-nup being around for longer (and anyway, shouldn´t a prenting plan be included in a pre-nup if you have one?)
If, however, for some reason the parenting plans work fine, it is probably the one thing that men needed – a perfect replacement for marriage. If you have this possibility, there´s no reason men should complain. If she refuses to sign and you do not say goodbye, there´s just one person in the world you can blame.
Joe K
Posted at 07:46 am, 10th October 2016I was *very* close to living out Scenario 2 except I was not (ever) willing to get legally married and I would never cheat, no matter what. Just as this was about to happen (after a ~4 year relationship) – I discovered that she had been cheating on me and lying about it – so I ended it there and then.
Truly, I thought I had done everything right. That I had put all the odds in my favor.
Now it seems that the only way it could conceivably work would be to co-habitate (or marry, if you must) with an early-20s chick that has an alpha father, and put babies into her every 2-3 years until she’s basically post-menopausal.
As for your lifestyle BD, nowhere do I see that out in the open. It is still so publicly clandestine that I have no reference for “seeing how that really does work”. And there are limiting beliefs about the caliber of hotness of women who are up for that (inverse to character – I would look at women who are up for that as being almost, by definition, of higher personal character).
WolfOfGeorgeStreet
Posted at 08:00 am, 10th October 2016Going to depend on jurisdiction, but usually they’re not enforceable. Certainly here in Australia they’re not worth the paper they’re written on.
Grody
Posted at 08:03 am, 10th October 2016I respect your work. Having said that, perhaps, having already reproduced and not wanting to do so again is coloring your perceptions a little. Perhaps city living with an abundance of available women is coloring your perceptions a little.
Have you ever seen this plan pan out for a man? Multiple men? I really appreciate what you’re trying to do to revamp a broken syestem…
But is it just theorizing?
Nitpicunt
Posted at 08:13 am, 10th October 2016@Wolf
Were afraid so. I´ll ask my lawyer tomorrow, if there is anything like it in Europe and to what extent is it enforceable.
JB
Posted at 10:41 am, 10th October 2016I am really not sure why some of you keep saying that it will “never work”. I think BD has no doubt that most girls have too much SP to ever consider it, and most won’t accept an open marriage even if you do everything right. He’s not delusional.
What he is saying that the woman who exceeds your expectations – including her overwhelming acceptance of the polyamorous nature of your relationship – is the type of woman you can consider for an open marriage. And that exact same type of woman has already shown that she is not scared away by signing a co-habitation agreement when she first became your live-in girlfriend. Thus, she is also less likely to be scared away by a parenting plan and/or prenuptual agreement.
I’m sure that all of you living in rural towns know no women of this nature (which is your fault if you are interested in such a relationship), but truly independent women from the big cities will be more open to these kinds of relationships. They value their own independence, after all.
Erik Williams
Posted at 11:33 am, 10th October 2016BD,
as a 40 something man who has been in all three scenarios over my life, I can say you are spot on absolutely right.
Must be tiring to be right all of the time 🙂
You other guys, listen to the man and learn…
donnie demarco
Posted at 11:46 am, 10th October 2016You probably already know people in such relationships, but they don’t want to tell you. Couples keep this stuff secret because they don’t want to be judged.
Speaking of judgy:
This “lower/higher caliber” crap is exactly the type of thinking open couples are trying to avoid.
Perhaps Disney and SP are coloring your perceptions a little?
Can you offer any alternatives to #3? Because we already know #1 and #2 don’t work.
Saracen III
Posted at 02:45 pm, 10th October 2016#4 Scorched earth
Have the snip.
Don’t marry.
Don’t date single moms.
Prosper.
Until alimony laws are repealed entirely.
A financial gun-to-the-head is no way to live a life,
and no way to raise a child.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 03:38 pm, 10th October 2016More or less, yes. Whenever these manosphere guys talk about open marriages, they’re picturing a Dominant feminist who’s out banging hot dudes while her mousy little beta husband jerks off to porn and watches the kids for her. This is obviously one extreme (and not typical) example, is not the kind of relationship or marriage I talk about here, and isn’t even close.
That is not a question anyone here can answer, since all the states in the US and all the countries in Europe have laws that vary widely. As always, you need to consult a family law attorney in your own town and let him give you the info (which sounds like what you’re doing).
A good thing about Europe is many countries countries there don’t have alimony. (They have child support though.)
As for:
And:
Both you guys need to read excuse number 3 right here.
Heh. Heh. Heh. Hopefully someday soon I can publish a few pictures of my OLTR. I’m planning on moving her in at some point. That will show you what kind of “caliber of hotness” women who are up for this are “like.”
Or, you’ll just make excuses about “Well, that’s Blackdragon. I could never do that.” The choice is yours.
As I said in the very first paragraph of the above article, there will be no convincing certain guys no matter what I do, even if I posted video interviews of 10 men with hot OLTR wives. (Which I could do if they agreed to do it, which they would not.)
It is a burden I am willing to bear. 🙂
Exactly. That’s the question to ask any doubters or hardcore monogamy-loving manosphere types.
As I’ve said many times, you may not like my answer, but at least I have one that works.
That is not a pair bonding option. I’m talking about ways to long-term pair bond here. Only a very small percentage of men over age 40 will follow what you’re suggesting. The vast majority of men over age 35-40 will want to settle down and pair bond and/or have kids in some fashion.
CTV
Posted at 03:58 pm, 10th October 2016Here is the problem I see with these men. A lot of it is Point of View and Self Confidence.
Point of View is they think that that makes them a Cuckold. If you’re into that fetish than good on you it’s not necessarily beta per se, just a fetish. It’s not my thing. In a sense though if those guys were actively seeking a fetish it’s Alpha because they’re getting what they want. It’s beta if you’re chick corners you with it and you have no choice. See the difference? So obviously if your heart doesn’t skip a beat when your chick fucks another dude because you’re Poly, Swinger, etc than you’re a non-needy badass than because you know you fuck other chicks too. Hell Feminists should go crazy over that kind of equality!
Self Confidence in the sense that you don’t care, know it’s going and are secure with yourself. Let’s just say your chick fucks a guy who is another Alpha in your eyes and you know about it. You’re an Alpha too in your own eyes right? You’re conducting your life in accordance to your code, your terms, etc. Did her fucking that guy take anything away from you? It’s like how DEVGRU (SEAL Team 6) got called up for the Bin Laden take down instead of Delta Force. Now did Delta Force lose points? NO. Are they still badasses, FUCK YES. They just happen to use the other team that time. Coulda easily been them. Another Example.. Take a badass MMA fighter vs. badass football player. Does them doing their thing take away from the other? NO
Straight Rider
Posted at 06:31 pm, 10th October 2016@BD. Why if I may ask are you planning on moving her in? What is the advantage you will be getting by moving her in over your existing OLTR situation right now with her living in her own place? @WolfOfGeorgeStreet has posted comments about this live in OLTR stuff and it does not seem to be optimal in terms of logistics(except if you have more cash to get over the logistics issues as per his comments above and elsewhere on this blog) and discreetness(not throwing it in your OLTRs face).
This is coming from a dude that has lived with a woman for over 5 years in the past(not legally married) and it was pretty much like scenario 3 that you describe above and even though I didn’t know anything about alpha, beta etc at the time I naturally exhibited a lot of alpha 2 traits simply because I was more focused on my mission even at that young age. I gave her the freedom to do whatever and I was free to do whatever and I just thought this was how everyone lived, happy. That was until friends and family started to get involved and I guess convinced her this dude should not be living happy and she needs to take control of the relationship, then came the ultimatum, settle for betaization or its over, well you know what I chose. (I didn’t even realize at the time the ultimatum was just about taking control, I just thought it was what she really wanted and I was like ok, sure, much to her surprise. I was naive at the time but I instinctively knew a woman has to want to be with you, there is no point trying to make her want to, so if she doesn’t want to, you need to let her go.)
Anyway, I say all that to say this, even though I was happy in that situation I still currently don’t have the desire to move any woman in with me again, ever. I would rather she has her own place. I personally don’t think you need to be in each others space day in and day out, your relationship will probably last longer.
Perhaps you are doing it to raise kids?
Side note about parenting plans, even if they are enforceable in your location today, is there any guarantee they will be enforceable tomorrow?(they could change the laws on you).
Jocko
Posted at 08:48 pm, 10th October 2016Honestly, before I read this blog I saw myself having a relationship life similar to yours. Have kids in a monogamous de facto LTR (I learnt how shit marriage was for men in high school legal studies, benefit of going to an all boys school). When you inevitably break up, I thought I’d just run through a series of casual flings and MLTRs. But the model you’ve outlined seems much more workable and less dramatic.
To guys that are worrying. I’ve only been following BD’s advice for a few months, but for what it’s worth, I’m having no problems maintaining open relationships with “high quality” women. In fact, a lot appreciate that you don’t do the hot/cold thing or you’re not needy and controlling.
It’s different once you get to the point where you want to start a family with a woman. But solely from my experience, there’s no reason to doubt BD. What he’s saying works. It’s certainly harder in the short term to establish open relationships and get a rotation going, but that’s nothing compared to the stress of a messy break up/divorce.
(Only thing I disagree on is kissing on first dates, but I think that works for me because I’m in my early 20’s)
@WolfOfGeorgeStreet. So, in your experience, the women throw themselves at married men trope is just a myth?
Oh Yes
Posted at 08:58 pm, 10th October 2016I must not be doing the Alpha male 1 thing correctly. Been married for 28 years. My wife still looks good and weighs 125. She can’t get alimony from me, cause she makes as much money as me. She fucks me whenever I want. She doesn’t cheat on me. She won’t divorce me and even if she did I’d get over it. Child support? I have one kid out of the house already. The other one is almost ready for college.
I’m not saying marriage is the best thing out there. I got married before I knew any better. But so far I have been one of the 30% that Blackdraggon talks about that didn’t get divorced. It can happen.
Oh and there is no such thing as a unicorn. You gotta train your woman to do the right thing. Women don’t know how to be wives until you train them. And you can’t train them by bossing them around alpha style. Nope. You have to make them think that being a good wife is what’s best for them.
JB
Posted at 12:01 am, 11th October 2016@Jocko
As another young guy in my mid 20’s, I actually have to disagree (based on my location in Scandinavia).
Up here, it’s actually about the same difficulty to establish open relationships – If you follow the advice to the core, meaning:
You dont discuss the nature of your relationship
You see each other once a week (after Lock-in = sex on two seperate occasions)
You had poly EFA from day one (which was incredibly attractive to her)
You are congruent and you never refrain from dating other women (i.e. you are not getting needy/oneitsy)
But I’m guessing it depends on the location.
I’m actually having some trouble with this one as well. While I whole-heartedly agree that it is often true, I can actually feel that a lot of times they can get strongly disappointed that I’m not going in for a kiss (i.e. they give you the not-so-subtle kiss me face), then look confused as hell when I hug them and go home. Perhaps I should start, see if the statistics get better (i.e. faster sex or more sex from new women) and apply as needed.
Jocko
Posted at 12:19 am, 11th October 2016@JB
I didn’t mean that it’s hard to form open relationships, just harder. I’m sure you’ve hooked up with a girl who likes you enough, that after the first time you’ve had sex would be down for a relationship.
There’s a lot of steps to getting into an open relationship. A mono relationship you can basically have a few dates and say “hey, I want you to be my girlfriend”.
With the not kissing thing, if it works for you then don’t change it. I make out on the first date with every girl I’m interested in, hasn’t hurt me at all.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 01:07 am, 11th October 2016I’ve wanted to experience a live-in OLTR for several years now. I’m getting old (turning 45 next year) and would like to live with someone (as long as it’s nonmono and my finances aren’t threatened, of course).
It’s not something I need to do (if I never live with a woman for the rest of my life I’ll still be very happy) but it’s something I’d like to try/experience.
A deeper form of pair bonding. Read this.
George has a very different personality than mine (he’s much more pessimistic) and lives in a very different mental world than me in terms of how he views women and what kinds of women he wants. Read my comment to him here for more detail. I won’t have any of the problems he describes (nor will most older guys who attempt this who are financially stable).
No. I’m done having kids and she doesn’t want any. Though that would be the reason most men would do this, yes.
Correct. Not only could they change, but they likely will eventually. We live in a fallen, left-wing, anti-man world and thus it’s your job to stay abreast of these things if you really want kids.
As I’ve said before, there are no good options for being married and having kids anymore. All we have left are degrees of bad.
Congrats on your success, but just to be a factual asshole, there is a huge spike in divorce risk/rates when the last child finally leaves home. My mom and I were just talking about that the other day. Most of her old married female friends dumped their husbands as soon as the last child moved away and was settled (i.e. she knew the kid wouldn’t be moving back). So you’ve got one more hurdle to overcome before you declare victory. If you’re still married in about 5-6 years, then I’d say you’ve won the marriage game (assuming you’re still happy by then of course).
FiveSix
Posted at 08:39 am, 11th October 2016In my experience, worries about girls riding the cock carousel in an open relationship are overblown. Sure, women *could* have sex on any day they want. Sure, some girls do see lots of partners, they’re great FB’s, and if you can’t accept the STD risk, next them.
But most women, at least the ones I’ve been with, are quite happy with one or two partners and don’t desire to constantly find, filter, and fuck different men each week. Women have to worry about their own problems with men: Finding ones that are hot (physically or otherwise), safe to meet so they don’t get stalked/raped, and compatible with their desires in a relationship.
JT Money
Posted at 11:10 am, 11th October 2016I think you are right about how marriages and divorce play out. Your solution however is one I see generally not playing out. What decent attractive woman, and no I’m not talking about a unicorn, will agree to a child raising agreement? If they do you know darn well they have an ulterior motive or likely know it’s not enforceable.
Also what woman will have an illegitimate child with you without marriage if she is likely a woman who has the same quality type of man willing to marry them? Marriage benefits a woman because courts take care of her.
Lastly the open marriage thing is a joke. Assuming she agrees to it,and you’re even an above average money guy, she will have way more options than you do. A man can have sex with ten women under this circumstance and if she does it once, you will emotionally abandon her out of anger and the relationship won’t last.
Your idea for relationships are good from a mans perspective but it won’t be done with a quality woman. There is no need to marry or even be commited unless you want kids. If you do you will have to be in some form of commited relationship until she says otherwise
The Dude
Posted at 12:20 pm, 11th October 2016BD,
Been following your advice for a few years and everything is spot on. I’m in mid/late 30’s and not interested in living with anyone at this point, but realize that may change over time. Looking forward to hear about your experience if/when you do the move in.
Specifically:
(1) how it affects your relationship with any current FBs and downgraded MLTRs;
(2) whether it affects the quality of new FBs;
(3) whether your OLTR helps you get new FBs, and if she does it pre-move in, whether that changes;
(4) on average how many nights per week you spend together, does she travel with you, etc.
(5) details regarding any post-move in increase in drama, cockblocking, withholding sex and other standard betaization tactics, and how to avoid that without being able to soft-next.
(6) how/when do you bring up the fact that you have a live-in OLTR when meeting new women and how that affects your success/close rate.
(7) how old is the OLTR girl when you moved in and if she does change her mind about wanting more of a commitment, what age was she when that happened.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:27 pm, 11th October 2016Correct. Men always forget that female sexual patterns are nothing like a man’s.
Most wives I know in long-term OLTR marriages/relationships either don’t fuck other men or fuck other men only very sporadically. Even when they are, it’s just one other dude, not a train of sex partners like an Alpha typically has.
I have had multiple women, as in about eight of them, ask me to have kids with them, and when I told them about the parental agreement, none of them balked. Not one.
If a woman likes/loves you and wants kids with you, these kinds of details are irrelevant to her. Just try it before saying it doesn’t work, and you’ll see.
Now if you throw this in a woman’s face on a first or second date, then yeah, she won’t like it. Get her to like/love you first, then give her the logistics. She won’t care at that point (at least not enough to not go through with it).
What I just said above. She likes or falls in love with you first, then you figure this crap out. Not the other way around.
You’re making the common mistake of looking at this analytically like a man. Women are not men.
You mean YOU will abandon her out of anger. I won’t give a shit and have no problem with it. Neither will most of the other Alpha Male 2.0s in these comments.
I’ve been in multiple serious nonmonogamous relationships and in many of them, the woman was fucking other dudes occasionally. I didn’t give a shit, since betas and Alpha Male 1.0s are not a threat to me. I have better things in my life to concern myself with.
If you’re going to let sexual jealousy rule your actions, you’ll never be happy. I suggest you get a copy of my book and read about the cure.
You’re obviously new to these concepts. You need to do some more reading and research on this topic, starting with the articles and comments on this blog.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:41 pm, 11th October 2016If it happens, and there’s about an 80% chance it will, then trust me, you will all receive a full report and regular updates on this blog.
I’ve actually already written a rough draft of the first post I will make about it (and she’s read it).
She’s already my OLTR thus I downgraded or nexted all of my other MLTRs about a year ago. I’ve only had her and FBs since then.
FBs don’t need be quality. That’s the beauty of FBs.
FBs just need to be physically hot, and all of mine are. The physical hotness of FBs won’t change just because I live with someone. Most of the same ones I have now will simply continue. (And sugar babies are always an option too.)
FYI the FBs in my life right now are the hottest they’ve ever been. The result of experience.
My last OLTR helped me do this and we had a great time doing it. This current one will not. There are several reasons for this that I’ll discuss later if/when she moves in (mostly because of personality differences).
If she lives with me she’ll spend every night with me, unless I’m traveling. She will travel with me about 50% of the time (that’s only a guess). We’re going to Vegas next month and we’re already planning a trip to Europe next year.
Yes, that will be something I will have to manage. I’ll keep you all updated if/when she moves in.
I can’t soft next her once she moves in. All I can do use use my relationship management techniques to the best of my ability, keep my frame 100%, and kick her out if she becomes a recurring problem. And she’s aware of all this. She reads this blog regularly.
It will likely decrease my success rates. I don’t care as long as my success rates don’t go to zero (and they won’t). (And again, if I go the sugar baby route, they completely don’t care.)
She is 36 years old now. She will be 37 if/when she moves in. One of the many reasons I wanted to do this with someone older is for exactly what you said; the younger she is, the more likely she is to change her mind about wanting kids or monogamy or whatever (which is what happened, somewhat, in my last OLTR, but she was much younger).
The Dude
Posted at 02:32 pm, 11th October 2016Awesome, thank you!
Yes, by “quality” I was only referring to looks; I should have clarified that. Great to hear that hasn’t changed.
Speaking of sugar dating, I’ve read your past posts on it discussing the differences between that an the traditional sites. Is that an area you’ve been focusing on, and if so, do you plan to put out future advice via books/blog posts on how to frame the interaction to optimize results – i.e, screen girls, negotiate, convert to non-arrangement FB, or ideally avoid the arrangement from the start, etc.
donnie demarco
Posted at 05:05 pm, 11th October 2016This is why I love the comments here. People describe our lifestyle as if it’s impossible. It’s flattering; you make me feel like Errol Flynn or something.
FiveSix
Posted at 05:59 pm, 11th October 2016I concur with BD, I really don’t mind if my wife, or secondary partners, see other men. I’m even a friend of one partner’s partner. If they want to go monogamous, that’s great since they’ll be happy together (for a while), and I’ll have time to get a new FB. Win-win.
In the past I had the mentality of “there’s NO way my wife is going to FUCK another man, god dammit!”. But I look back and it seems so ridiculous to worry or be upset about. People have sex, woop dee doo!
FiveSix
Posted at 06:02 pm, 11th October 2016Holy Shit that’s the truth… All the nay-sayers say “it can’t be done”, and here we are!
Cheers to Donnie, BD, et al!
Caleb Jones
Posted at 03:22 am, 12th October 2016Already done. I have a post on it here and an entire updated and very detailed section on it in the Ultimate Online Dating Manual.
I agree. These kinds of comments make me smile. 🙂
Pretty much, yes. As long as a condom is used, most sex is a physical act like shaking hands. Why should I be offended by this? However, irrelevant of that, the big things for me are A) low drama and B) sustainability. Constantly monitoring your GF or wife to make sure she doesn’t fuck other guys, then losing your shit if she flirts with dudes or whatever, is A) not low drama at all and B) not sustainable if YOU are out fucking other women. As I’ve said before, Western women, no matter how virginal or submissive, are NOT going to tolerate you banging other women on the side while they can’t bang dudes. Not forever. Thus, not sustainable.
Anon.
Posted at 04:50 am, 12th October 2016So true. What brought me to applied female psychology research websites like this blog was a crush I had on a girl. I would monitor her every step, ponder what her being online and offline at certain times meant, be frustrated whenever she would add a male friend–and generally be frustrated : )
There’s just no level of monitoring that brings you peace. The only way to peace I see is acceptance of her as her own person, and confidence in myself that whatever choices she makes, I won’t be alone and I will be happy.
Joe K
Posted at 06:12 am, 12th October 2016“What I just said above. She likes or falls in love with you first, then you figure this crap out. Not the other way around.
You’re making the common mistake of looking at this analytically like a man. Women are not men.”
I have no experience in anything beyond very short term FB arrangements with women over 30. All my LTR experience is with women 21-27. So if you’ve got a 36 year old woman who’s been through all that life-stuff, maybe that’s something I oughta look at. Like you, I see massive rampant cheating everywhere but I also see massive rampant weddings taking place. Even hot younger millennial women – to JTMoney’s point – are not willing to sign on to your type of agenda. Their own social circle will talk them out of it. Everyone around that mid-20s western woman (including, and especially, other 20-something female peers/friends) is telling her not to have kids before the man puts a ring on it…it will make her public social status a joke, and by-default lower than uglier women that successfully have convinced their beta mercenary to put a ring on it. By the way – my examples (experiences) are from a couple very liberal US cities, with young women who self-described as both politically liberal and conservative, and none of that shit matters. What matters to her is her precious image in the eyes of all around her, and that suffers almost irreparably from going down that road *at that age*. I wish I were wrong, and this is in no way adversarial against the guys that have made it work. I simply want to believe you, and my experience is screaming ‘impossible’.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:39 am, 12th October 2016and
and
You really need to read and understand this.
Again, stop looking at this logically like a man and start looking at this like an irrational woman. I can only repeat that so many times.
Mike Hunter
Posted at 11:53 am, 12th October 2016@BlackDragon
I’ve tried poly dating. So far it has usually resulted in the woman using poly dating as a chance to shop around for a decent SMV “mono” man, using me as a backup plan [unbeknownst to me]; then jumping ship once she finds a “mono” that she’s sure she can lock into a relationship. While she’s in the throes of NRE with him of course. I believe you refer to this as “LSNFTE”. This is always accompanied by lies and deception on her part about: whether she’s dating someone else, if they’re having sex, whether it’s serious or not, etc. Sometimes I don’t find out about any of it until right before she leaves me for the other man. Granted I don’t have a huge data set when it comes to this situation because, I don’t get into a relationship with a woman unless she’s high SMV relative to the type of women I can normally pull.
My question is how do you have a pair bonded relationship with someone under these conditions? I could care less if the woman I’m with fucks another man. As long as she’s having safe sex, and it doesn’t effect my relationship with her. It’s only sex after all. But women don’t seem to be satisfied with just sex. They all want to use an open relationship as a chance to trade up; without the risk of losing what they already have. Trying to plan long term with someone under those conditions is no way to run a railroad. I need at least a minimum guarantee of stability.
It seems in those situations promising monogamy and cheating might be a more practical option. Sure the man may get caught and the relationship may end because of it. But my experience with poly is that the relationship will end anyway when she trades me in for someone else behind my back. If the relationship is going to end either way I’d rather be the one playing women then the one getting played. Also I’ll have some degree of control over the likelihood the relationship will end; though the level of precautions I’m willing to take to avoid getting caught. Thoughts?
Parade
Posted at 12:43 pm, 12th October 2016First thought: Regardless of anything else I’m morally opposed to the idea of cheating myself. I’m happy to help someone else cheat, but I won’t setup a relationship where I can.
Second thought: You’re preoccupied with the idea of control. You control when the relationship ends, you don’t control her, etc. Not sure why it’s such a big deal to you. Every relationship will end at some point; that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy the time you have together. Worrying about who will end it or if she’s using it to ‘trade up’ doesn’t sound like a very enjoyable way to spend your time to me.
Third thought: if she’s using you to trade up then it sounds to me like you have some self-esteem/value issues. While there are other guys who might be a better fit for someone I’m fucking it’s not possible for a chick to trade up from me. She can, at best, make a lateral trade. Maybe someone who fits what she’s after better (say, a provider, which I’ll never be) and if she does find someone like that, great! I’m happy for her. I’m also still around to fuck her when she gets bored of him.
Final thought: I get the feeing you’re trying to force an M/OLTR where you shouldn’t be because it’s what you want. Let the relationship develop into what it does and upgrade when someone has proven they are what you’re looking for by their actions.
Duke
Posted at 01:11 pm, 12th October 2016It seems like ego/pride is a huge part of this from the looks of it. Like parade says, let women use you, while enjoying it in the process. Life’s too short to be worrying about these petty issues.
FiveSix
Posted at 02:46 pm, 12th October 2016Mike, a woman that LSNFTE’s you is not qualified for a pair-bonded open relationship.
BD has many articles on qualifying women and the rules (for you) to set up relationships correctly.
Cherie
Posted at 03:49 pm, 12th October 2016BD,
I can’t wait to read some posts when/if you do move in together. My OLTR and I moved in together a few months ago after careful consideration( and preparation), and things couldnt be better! Neither of us has compromised our happiness in any way, and its a joy having someone to share all those life moments with.
I have a few personal concerns which i would like to voice as to handling some new situations which have arose as a result of living togerher now. We are luckily able to logically communicate so well it has not been an issue for us.
Looking forward to your next post, as always!
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:18 am, 13th October 2016Correct. That’s exactly what happens. Look at the definition of LSNFTE. The good news is that, since monogamy doesn’t work, 94% of these women come back. So you lose nothing.
The only thing you got wrong is these are not higher SMV men. These are usually lower SMV men who are promising something you won’t promise. As lower SMV men, they must promise crap like monogamy in order to get women. As an Alpha, you do not. I’ve discussed all of this in detail in past articles. I suggest you take a look at the archive and do some more reading.
Irrelevant.
She’s allowed to fuck other men so how she does so and what she says about it is up to her.
You’re never getting one, including with monogamy.
But the general answer to your question is stop doing MLTRs and have an OLTR instead (after proper vetting of course). It’s easier to keep a woman long-term in an OLTR than an MLTR because with an OLTR she’s your real girlfriend and gets all the girlfriend benefits her Disney Societal Programming craves. Whereas MLTRs by their very nature are more temporary (though not always; many of my MLTRs last years and years).
I don’t see the difference in those two scenarios, except in the first one you’re slave and in the second one you’re an Alpha.
Your perspective is completely screwed. Under an FB/MLTR/OLTR model, no one is getting played, since you’re honest about what you’re doing and not doing.
If that’s your priority over every other aspect, then sure, get monogamous and enjoy your pain. I’ll be over here being happy. But OLTR seems your better path.
Happiness is my priory. No other details matter to me.
They’re coming! It will be a while though.
Congrats! But don’t forget you can’t claim victory until you’ve been living together past three years and everything is still good. Moving In Together NRE is a real thing.
Not a lawyer
Posted at 04:53 am, 13th October 2016As for the risk of women sleeping with many partners if you “allow” them an open relationship: if they want to do it, they will not wait for your permission. Whether you tell them “you can do it” is quite irrelevant, the ease with which they can get laid exists (or doesn´t exist, depending on perceived quality) independent of your leadership illusions.
As for the preparenting plan in continental Europe, I´m no lawyer but (not sure whether this applies in all countries) as far as I know, nothing of the sort exists, the rationale being that you can´t preagree on the handling of people in the same way you can with wealth (dogs on the contrary are things, so you probably can put your bitch in your prenup, if your country has prenups – not all EU countries have them). The parenting decision can only be made with regard to the situation at the moment of divorce.
On the other hand the no-fault divorce system applies only if the couple comes with an agreeement on what to do with the wealth and what to do with the kids, agreed and signed by both. Otherwise it´s the who did what haggling, dirty sheets in public, guilt proving, battering and adultery accusations, psychologists deciding which home is better for the kids how much the other parent should pay with the objective of “maintaining” the life standard of the children – not the woman. Alimony for the woman is very rare, mostly if she proves she can´t get along by herself and often it is your fault (such as you drove the car, crashed, crippled her and you dump her because she´s a cripple). The child payments tend to be reasonable, too low even, so the single mother mostly has a good reason to come to terms with the husband, unless she already has another sponsor.
Joe K
Posted at 05:47 am, 13th October 2016BD-I’ve read that before and I read it again. It’s a great piece. And each of the 9 examples you cite reveal women *trying to have their cake and eat it too*. “Sure I told BD one thing, but when he called me out on my BS, or didn’t take the bait, or didn’t give me what I said I wanted – I went ahead and did the opposite because that’s my prerogative and as a woman I’ll never be held accountable for anything.”
But the scenario we are discussing here (a woman consenting to have kids with you, without marriage, in her 20s, without monogamous commitment) seems to me the *polar opposite* of a woman having her cake and eating it too. This goes to the heart of my limiting belief on the matter.
doclove
Posted at 05:53 am, 13th October 2016Blackdragon
I would like to thank you for finally proving how much more Beta Males are screwed under the current regime in the sexual market place than they ever were before. The reasons is simple. It is called hypergamy which means men have a moderate interest in having a harem or better yet a virtual harem and women have a mild interest in being in a harem or worse for them virtual harem. You said it up above that there is a 50/50 chance that your OLTR will have sex with other men while you have sex with an FB. Even if your OLTR has sex with other men it is my contention that she likely will do so with fewer other men than you have sex with other women, and that she will engage in sexual activity with these other men less frequently than you do with other women. Even the MLTRs and FBs will be less likely to have Beta Male partners and also to have sex less frequently with Beta Males than Alpha males especially Alpha 2.0s which basicly renders Beta males involuntarily celibate. It’s a terrible deal for society especially Beta males but Alpha 2.0 males benefit the most, Alpha 1.0 males a little less, then women and finally Beta males bringing up the rear. It really made no sense for you or anyone else to complain about the man-children becoming grass-eating herbivores living in their mothers’ basement, smoking dope, playing video games, masturbating to pornography etc. because at least they are going to be the least harmful to other human beings be they women or Beta, Alpha 1.0 and Alpha 2.0 males. If they ever leave their mothers’ basement they might decide to try for the thug life and be a danger to society which includes children, women, and Beta, Alpha 1.0 and Alpha 2.0 men. An non thug Alpha 2.0, Alpha 1.0 and Beta are not a threat to society, but a thug Alpha 2.0, Alpha 1.0 and Beta are. The thing most heterosexual men want is pussy no matter what kind of heterosexual man they are. The problem is that the price of pussy has gone up and the price of dick has gone down in the last several decades. If men can not get pussy easily enough then they either give up and become 1) docile grass-eating herbivore man children or 2) they turn into thugs or 3) they work to become law abiding alphas in that order because it is easier to be a grass-eating herbivore man child than a thug which in turn is easier than working to be a law abiding alpha.
You know that only 5 to 10% of men are willing to do what you do and make it work at best. Actually , unlike you, I think a lower percentage of men even have the potential ability to make it worthwhile their effort to try. I will agree that you will never know until you try and at least if you try and fail at the very least as long as you aren’t permanently injured, arrested or dead(which would be rare as in under 2%) then at the very least you as a man will be a little better with women. You never know until you try as they say.
I have also come to believe that romantic love coming from a woman is as a rule, there are exceptions as you say the 2% rule, is essentially the most worthless love there is. Remember that women on average are less willing to suffer and die for you men than you men are for women and that there is no greater love than one human laying down their life for another human. Because women on average are more likely to leave you with the children married or in a live in OLTRs, it by definition means that not only do they love you less than you men love them but that they care more about themselves than even their own offspring because as a general rule statistics have proven that children perform better on average when couples stick together. Here is a caveat. I understand that most men crave and want it more than anything else, but it is like processed sugar in the sense that a little bit and you vigorously control your intake feels good, but too much will make you fat and diseased with diabetes and kill you. Someone tell Jack Outside the Box. I really wish I had the time to respond more fully to the comments he made to me on other articles and I may return and comment on them admittedly a day late and a dollar short. My advice which most men will not follow is to never marry, always wear a reliable latex condom, never live with a woman and never have children. The problem with your advice is that even if a man does all that you say, he is still liable for child support and maybe alimony, increasing numbers of jurisdictions will start treating “live in girlfriends” increasingly like they are wives or divorcing wives and it doesn’t even provide partial protection against the Duluth model of how men are treated in domestic disputes concerning the Violence Against Women Acts. Sure your way minimizes these dangers a lot, but I see no rational reason to do it. Women are for sex first foremost and always, and it would be nice to get more than that but it is not necessary in my opinion. It makes no difference to me how men get sex from women as long as it is always between mutually consensual and voluntary adults, and prostitution prohibition should be ended now and better yesterday,
CrabRangoon
Posted at 09:07 am, 13th October 2016@doclove
You are correct to a certain degree that women’s love is kinda worthless but I would replace “worthless” with “transient”. They won’t love you the way you want forever-it’s always temporary and can only be extended a bit longer by keeping a strong frame and not betaizing yourself. You just have to keep your expectations in check when it comes to romantic love, enjoy the ride while it lasts and keep an abundance mentality. There are a few articles on here that give advice on avoiding oneitis and extreme beta/alpha 1.0 behaviors. Always keep a tight group of guy friends too-too many men these days ditch their friends the minute they get into relationships.
Any time a girl I’m seeing says things like “I’ll always love you…” I just smile and think yo myself “aww you’re so cute and full of shit”. I know she won’t but will enjoy the time with her nonetheless.
Still working on the OLTR thing but making good progress-these girls do exist, ones that will be down for this type of relationship. I’m on the MLTR/FB phase right now and I dig it WAY more than that old traditional LTR method. That just caused me stress and unhappiness in the long run(once the NRE died down).
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:04 pm, 13th October 2016Great point and you’re exactly right. I’ve said this before myself.
Whether or not she eventually cheats on you or leaves you is up to her, and you run this high risk regardless of you’re monogamous or nonmono.
This is correct. Women’s sexual patterns are not like men’s. And the older they get, the more this is true (due to rising ASD and a reduced feeling of their own sexual attractiveness).
This is the one (large) flaw in your argument, and unfortunately you’re not the first one to make it. There is nothing involuntary about being a beta male. Beta males can stop being betas whenever the hell they want. I know this personally, because I used to be one myself, and finally stopped because being a beta was too painful.
I’m not saying it’s easy to make the switch from beta to Alpha. It isn’t. I’m saying that most betas know they’re betas and CHOOSE to stay that way.
Make no mistake: betas are betas by choice!
This is why I don’t feel sorry for them anymore.
CrabRangoon already beat me to my point, but this is only true if you buy into the Societal Programming that romantic love is supposed to be “forever.” Once you realize that all (or at least the vast majority) of romantic love is temporary, and build your lifestyle around that, suddenly love becomes a very nice, wonderful thing.
Removing Disney from your life really does increase happiness in very real ways.
And as I’ve said a thousand times, 95% of men, including Alphas, will ignore that advice. Instead you must give men a way to pair bond and/or have kids in the least bad way, or else 95% of them will just snort and ignore you. I’m not saying that’s a good thing. I’m saying it’s the reality.
That isn’t a problem, because I tell men in advance that they must plan on and budget for paying child support for 18 years before they ever have kids.
As for changing laws, I already addressed that in a comment above. (Pay close attention and watch the laws at all times.)
I already addressed that here.
joelsuf
Posted at 01:17 pm, 13th October 2016I cringe more and more every time I see this term being mentioned. Unless you are physically unable to have sex or something, there is literally no such thing as being “involuntarily celibate.” Its like when female supremacists scream about all sex being rape and shit. That term SCREAMS “helpless victim.” This is coming from someone who had a 5(!!) year dry spell by the way. Sure I was depressed during it but I didn’t run around calling myself “involuntary celibate.” I was just either too lazy or too depressed to do something about my dateless and sexless life at the time. Once I stopped being depressed and got back in the game, what do you know? I get laid. If I was “involuntarily celibate,” I wouldn’t be able to do that.
As far as the rest of the article, who cares if chicks obsess about making dudes their property? This is my big beef with the alt rights, is that they think its something that’s thrust upon dudes and that there is some weird “war on men” because of it. It isn’t. Its just some weird trend. No one’s being changed, there’s just different choices now. I’m not affected by it at all. Seriously, most of these fringe groups are comedy gold. Their attempts at mind control are hilariously pathetic.
I’m still looking for a difference between alt-rights and female supremacists. Besides the gender differences, I can’t find any. Its the same agenda: “Agree with us or we’ll make you feel guilty!” That has no effect on those like me who are more or less in complete control of my emotions (something alt-rights are not in control of despite how “masculine” they claim they are).
Parade
Posted at 07:07 pm, 13th October 2016This is the weirdest thing to me. Why do so many people care if a chick is “riding the cock carousel”? I mean, care in a negative way. Seems like it’d be a good thing for the guy she’s with, both in a “hey, I have options and I picked you” ego boost kind of way, and in a “she’s probably better than average at sex since she’s had so much experience” kind of way.
CrabRangoon
Posted at 09:02 am, 14th October 2016@Parade
“Why do so many people care if a chick is “riding the cock carousel”?” This is mainly a symptom of the tradcon manosphere types if you check some of those blogs. They usually insist on a girl being a virgin or near-virgin for any type of long term relationship. The theory is this will make her less likely to stray and be a more trainable wife. I still say you can’t override female nature, regardless of her notch count. I could care less myself as long as they are STD free(with proof). One of my last girls slept with around 100 guys, was tested negative for everything and one of the best lays I’ve ever had. Inexperienced girls can be quite dull in bed and not very open minded.
Duke
Posted at 12:54 pm, 14th October 2016I wonder how long you expect this will last in cohabitation. 5 years? 10 years+? Since this one is older and doesn’t want children, in theory, it should last a while but who knows. If for some reason it lasts until you hit sixty, that would put you in quite a predicament having to start over again at that age. It would be interesting how it all pans out. Given you plan to give up your blog in 2025, we might never know, unless you become really famous or something.
IIRC didn’t you just break it off with your first OLTR about a year ago as well. It seems that you are well on the path of serial OLTRs, and have started adopting female mating strategies, whereby you have a potential OLTR on the back burner in case something happens to the current one. It comes natural and easy to women; men not so much. It never ceases to amaze me how much evolved and ahead of us women are. They literally run circles around us.
donnie demarco
Posted at 05:15 pm, 14th October 2016It’s not a matter of having + eating cake (though you’re right that women generally want everything). It’s about understanding the natural opposition between a woman’s social needs vs. her biological needs.
This is what women SAY. They say this to satisfy their need for social relatedness.
This is what women DO. They do this to satisfy their biological needs for sex and companionship.
Hence the title, “Ignore what they say, watch what they do”.
Unfortunately, there’s a problem: Women tend to hide the dirty little things that they DO. So unless you’ve seen it with your own eyes, you’re not going to believe it’s possible. Whenever you hear a man say “no woman would ever agree to that!”, what he’s REALLY saying is, “no woman has ever agreed to do that with me, because I’m a big pussy and never tried it”.
In conclusion, the only person who can shatter your limiting belief is YOU. You have to just try it, Man.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet
Posted at 06:58 pm, 14th October 2016Myth mostly. The exception is a few damaged women with issues that get off on ‘one upping’ another woman OR women that think they have a chance of stealing you from your wife.
The first type of woman loses interest if she finds out it’s an open marriage (that’s no fun for her), the second requires playing the ‘my wife doesn’t understand me’ game and giving them hope, something that causes a heap of drama down the road, not worth it.
Don’t believe me, create an online dating profile that says you’re married, even an open marriage and it’s completely honest and open and watch your response rate plummet.
BD has never been in a live in OLTR, and if he told everyone the reality, that you have to be rather wealthy so you can afford the hotels etc. or pay for a ‘love pad’ to make it work he wouldn’t sell many books on the topic. Think about it logically, getting laid with attractive women is tough enough nowadays for the average guy, now add all the logistical issues on top of it that a live in OLTR brings. Maybe in cheaper cities it’s a bit more achievable, and maybe if you can find women that can host, but in my experience you’re in for a tough time.
Of course it’s better than a mono LTR, but acting like you’re not giving much up and it’s ‘easily’ achievable by most men, is insane.
Technically we’re both INTJ. The difference is I’m actually in a live in OLTR, whereas you just theorize about it, or talk about people you ‘know’ or have ‘spoken to’.
I agree, it’s better than other options (otherwise I wouldn’t be doing it) but I think you make it sound alot easier than it is, probably to sell more books. Which I’ve purchased, and they’re great, but the reality isn’t as simple as the books make it sound.
I’ve also experienced the difference between various dating markets, and they are huge. So much so that someone giving dating advice in one city to someone in another city can be the equivalent to a good looking, rich, famous celeb giving dating advice to an average guy. Your advice is not universal, I can setup an online dating profile in Portland or Seattle right now, and a bunch of other US cities (especially NYC, Chicago) and have 3 dates lined up with attractive women next week, this is NOT the case for many other cities. Again though, I’m sure you ‘know of’ or have ‘spoken to’ many men who do this all over the world successfully so it’s totally achievable etc. like that trumps first hand experience.
The reality of the local market will also play hugely into the viability of a live in OLTR depending on your city, because it’s all supply and demand. An attractive girl will generally prefer a single guy as an FB, but will certainly compromise on him being single if the options in the single market aren’t great. If she can get a guy who is just as handsome, just as good in bed, just as fun etc. who’s single as an FB, then there’s no reason she’ll go for the non-single guy (except for exceptions where she actually gets off on that as I mentioned above), because with the single guy there’s always the chance it could turn into something more, even if she’s not looking for something more right now, that ‘chance’ gives the single guy alot more leverage because most women like that chance to be there.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:28 am, 15th October 2016We’re really jumping ahead talking about something I haven’t done yet, but I will give a very detailed answer to that question if/when it happens. (As a matter of fact, I’ve already written it.)
Incorrect. I’d still be fucking FBs just as before. Getting new MLTRs is easy. Getting another OLTR at that point would not be a priority.
It’s 2024, not 2025, and I don’t “plan” on giving up this blog then; I just reserve the right to stop writing it at that time if I so choose. I’m not exactly sure how I’ll feel about it in eight years.
And I never plan on becoming famous (way too much work). Just rich.
Incorrect; you’re way off. I broke that off three years ago, November 2013.
Incorrect again. That’s the opposite of what I do. When I have an OLTR, or even a high end MLTR, I never have a second woman on the “back burner” in case she doesn’t work out. That sounds incongruent and dishonest to me. Instead, I have a nice portfolio of FBs to keep me sexually happy. That’s it.
By “us” you mean “betas.” They don’t run circles around me, and I hope they don’t run circles around you. If they do, you have some major changes to make in your life.
Gil Galad
Posted at 05:11 am, 15th October 2016BD, how much money (as a minimum) do you recommend for a man to save by the time he’s 55-65 ? I’m talking disposable money, on top of what he might save for post-retirement ‘survival’ purposes.
Edit: this is a more important number for me than the recommended income which you put at 75k+
Caleb Jones
Posted at 07:55 am, 15th October 2016That’s too complicated an answer to give in a quick comment. However, my general opinion has always been that a man living in the free world should have a net worth of at least $1 million or close to it by the time he hits 50. At age 50, you’ve had 30 years as an adult to get your shit together; more than enough time to gather up $1 million, with today’s real inflation rates isn’t even that much money anymore.
I admit that’s an oversimplification though. More detail I can’t give here.
It’s just as important, since you will need the $75k+ per year income in order to hit your long term investment goals, especially if you plan on having kids and/or a wife at any point in your life.
Parade
Posted at 01:49 pm, 15th October 2016This is completely true. Having lived in both SF and NYC, well, the dating market in each place is totally different. I can sleepwalk through NYC dating and have dates out my ass. In SF I’m lucky if I go on two dates a week if I’m trying. That said, there’s more to it, since I know people in SF, NOT rich people, who can go on a date a day for a month straight off of tinder alone.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet
Posted at 01:12 am, 16th October 2016Yes, they’re females, extremely good looking men (top percentile), guys with low standards or liars. I could do a date a day for a month with an attractive girl in NYC (not SF) off tinder alone, at least a year ago, tinder isn’t what it used to be.
Zarko
Posted at 05:25 am, 16th October 2016There is a big difference between women who are openly poly and those who are poly in a discreet way. The first kind are almost always nutjobs, the second kind are perfectly normal. Manosphere guys tend focus on the first kind due to ignorance or because it fits their narrative.
Parade
Posted at 07:30 pm, 16th October 2016I’m not talking about chicks 😉 I’m going to guess they’re better than average in the looks department, but they’re not like “male model” (at least, I don’t think they are?) level. And this was relatively recently. And yes, I’m talking about in SF, not in NYC.
Inquiring Mind
Posted at 09:18 am, 17th October 2016BD, this thread led me to think of beta orbiters. Anyone who has dated attractive women has had to deal with them. As you’ve stated, you have seldom lost a woman to another Alpha, but many to a beta. That said, how does an Alpha 2.0 successfully deal with the beta orbiter?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:56 pm, 17th October 2016He doesn’t “deal” with them at all. He completely ignores them and lets them act as beta as they like around his women. If she ever brings them up, he just nods and shrugs, or perhaps makes a comment that observes their beta status. “He Facebooks you every day? Hm. Sounds kinda needy.”
That’s it.
Le Penseur
Posted at 04:30 pm, 17th October 2016Blackdragon,
I admire your blog and clear thinking. It is certainly food for thought.
I agree with most points you make. Just one issue. Because the Alpha 2.0 strategy is so advantageous, it is likely that in time, the majority of men will adopt the Alpha 2.0 strategy. In fact, it is already happening at a massive scale. The Alpha 2.0 lifestyle demands a surplus of women, which are extracted from the pool of potential mates for beta males and omega males.
What if beta males and omega males disappear, and all Alpha 2.0 males try to catch fish in the same pond? There will be a dearth of available sex partners.
Of course, cyber sex partners will probably eliminate this dilemma in the near future, but what if this, for one reason or another, will not happen?
Personally I foresee a society in which Alpha 2.0 males will invest everything they have in increasing their SMV. Two-parent families will be non-existent: child support is killing off their SMV. This money can be invested in e.g. smart suits or a luxury car. In short, the society that is prevalent in Caribbean island nations. The large groups of lonely young men will become agressive.
Anon.
Posted at 05:37 pm, 18th October 2016Le Penseur, when one asks, “What if a significant portion of the society adopts behavior X that’s currently rare?”, the answer is always, “Well, that would be a different society from today, and today’s knowledge won’t really apply”.
If (and unlike you, I place a very low probability on this) most men try to become Alpha 2.0, then either the betas will change in a way that counteracts this, and/or Alphas will diverge, and/or women will change, and/or something else will happen. This can’t be really predicted with any reliability.
But that doesn’t matter anyway. In the current world, becoming an Alpha 2.0 is a very sensible thing to do. If the world changes significantly, then re-evaluate the situation, but until that time, enjoy your Alpha 2.0 life.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet
Posted at 10:15 pm, 18th October 2016They’re alot better looking than you think, dating bottom of the barrel women or lying. A date a day for a month in SF off tinder alone. Nah man. I could put a male model profile there and not get those results. I’ve heard all sorts of crazy claims and they’re not hard to disprove with a fake profile.
Think about it, you’d need to have 3 dates organised a day just to ensure you cater for all the flakes. Even if I organised a date every day of the week at least 2-3 of them would cancel or stand me up.
2-3 dates a week with attractive women off tinder alone if the guy is very good looking in SF though, sure, that I’d believe.
Le Penseur
Posted at 02:03 am, 19th October 2016Anon,
Not really. The consequences do not require superhuman visionary abilities.
Just use some elementary logic.
Actually, this experiment is already in play. e.g. in Africa and Caribbean island nations.
sta.uwi.edu/crgs/november2009/journals/Kempadoo.pdf
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:54 am, 19th October 2016Incorrect. Read section two here and item number 17 here. Even if my books sold millions of copies and I became a household name, only a very tiny percentage of men will ever pursue the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle.
No, it is not. Read this.
donnie demarco
Posted at 04:57 pm, 19th October 2016The 2.0 lifestyle is not a zero-sum game. When a 2.0 sleeps with a woman, she is still free to have sex with other men. She’s still in the pool.
To be honest, a world of 2.0s sounds awesome to me. But I don’t think it’s biologically possible; the world needs its worker beta bees.
But this advice isn’t universal, either. Women want everything, and don’t choose unless they feel like they have to. If they can keep the non-single guy discreet (which is common), they’ll keep seeing both guys.
And maybe it’s just me, but my female attention levels always skyrocket when I have a girlfriend. I used to take advantage of this for many years, at least until I found BD’s system.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet
Posted at 09:29 pm, 19th October 2016I tend to agree with Le Penseur and this tends to be where most optimistic PUA types and perhaps more pessimistic ‘red pill’ types disagree.
Basically one side of the argument is that sex isn’t a zero sum game, that the market hasn’t reached nor surpassed ‘peak sex’ and that there is the ability for sex to be ‘created’ within the market similarly to how wealth can be created in the technology sector through innovation.
That is to say many ATTRACTIVE women (forget about the ones no guy really wants to have sex with) aren’t having as much sex as they would like and hence Mr smooth PUA/Alpha 2.0 just needs to run his game and create sex for himself in the market that wouldn’t have otherwise been there had he not run his game, ie. similar to the concept of wealth creation.
The other side of the argument is that sex from attractive women is a limited commodity, like oil, and there is a finite supply. Also that we’ve already hit and surpassed ‘peak sex’ as evidenced by the reduced amount of sex people are having (the article BD linked above).
The argument here is that the supply of sex from attractive women is shrinking due to increased obesity rates, an aging population and the ability of women to provide for themselves without having to rely on men, therefor making sex completely optional as opposed to something they need to use to survive.
It’s also argued that most attractive women are already getting as much sex as they would want, and there is no room in the market to create a greater supply of said sex, so we are all competing for the same limited and dwindling supply of sex from these attractive women. As soon as an attractive woman feels the need to get laid she heads down to a bar/nightclub (where guys will compete for her sex), jumps on tinder (where guys will compete for her sex) or fires off a few texts to her stable of FB’s to see who’s offering the best deal tonight (so her FB’s are competing for her sex).
Therefor if I end up having sex with 3 girls this week, it’s feasible all of them might be satisfied and choose not to have sex again for another week or more further limiting the supply for other men, whereas had I not have had sex with them, another man would have that opportunity.
o a
Posted at 07:26 am, 25th October 2016Why get in a relationship if you are not planning to marry?
posted on GirlsAskGuys by a 25-29 man.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:45 am, 25th October 2016Why not?
B
Posted at 08:10 pm, 29th November 2016Here’s a quick question and something I have been experiencing a LOT lately. I have an OK Cupid profile that says (near the bottom) that I’m in an open relationship. When I message girls they often message back with a ton of interest, compliments, nice things to say, but put a “soft no” in there somewhere. Something like “I’m not into open relationships” or “I’m not OK with someone I’m dating being in a relationship, but I’d like to meet up and see if we can be friends.” I often simply shrug these girls off even if they’re really hot as I feel like they’re a waste of my time just to “see if we can be friends.” I know from what I’ve read and experienced that this is not a complete NO, but what would you suggest doing in these frequent interactions???
Thanks
Caleb Jones
Posted at 01:30 pm, 30th November 2016Don’t put open relationship in your profile. Say single or divorced or leave it blank, then explain your situation on the first date in person.
Getting laid while blatantly saying you’re in an open relationship right on your profile is an advanced level of game.