20 Jul Managing Your Nonmonogamous Relationships In Social Environments
-By Caleb Jones
Today I’m going to address one of the most common questions you guys ask me about nonmonogamous relationships; those addressing how to handle them in social situations. What should you call her when you go to a party or meet your friends? What do you put on your Facebook page? What if people give her a hard time about what she’s doing with you? These are all valid questions, and we’ll address them all today.
As usual, when I talk about nonmonogamous relationships, I’m specifically talking about the three types: FB’s, MLTR’s or an OLTR. Click on those respective links for definitions if you have never heard those terms before.
You don’t need to worry about the social aspect for FB’s, since FB’s should not be going to parties with you or meeting your friends and family in the first place. FB’s are friends with benefits. They are not women you’re actually dating. She comes over to your place, or you go to her place, you talk for a bit, you have sex, and that’s it. There is no going out with a FB, ever. If you do, you are violating the rules of these relationship structures and you’re asking for all kinds of drama, conflict, and hurt feelings down the road.
MLTR’s are when things get complicated. These are indeed women you’re dating (nonmonogamously, of course, since you can have multiple MLTR’s) and they can indeed meet your friends. They should not meet your family unless she’s your primary, favorite, high-end MLTR.
OLTR, surprisingly, is where this stuff is actually pretty easy. While OLTR’s take more work and effort than MLTR’s, having an OLTR meet your friends and family is pretty easy. She’s your girlfriend or your wife, and that’s it. OLTR’s look and feel much more societally acceptable than MLTR’s in the eyes of normal people, so if she acts like your wife/girlfriend and that’s how you identify her, you’re not going to get very many questions from others.
So what we’re really talking about here today is MLTR’s. OLTR is not really a problem in this particular area and FB’s shouldn’t be involved in your social life at all. If any confusion or awkwardness is to arise, it’s likely with your MLTR’s only (unless you’re doing something very wrong with your FB’s or OLTR).
What To Call Her In Social Situations
One of the most common questions I get about this usually goes something like this:
Hey BD, when me and one of my MLTR’s goes out to a party, or goes and meets my friends (or hers), and people ask “what she is,” how do I respond? What do I call her? How do I identify her to others in my social or family circles? How do I respond to her when she asks who she is?
It’s important to understand that normal, monogamous people have this exact same problem. Let’s say you’re the typical monogamous person and you start dating a new girl. You’ve only been seeing each other for a few weeks. You two go out one evening with some of your friends. One of them asks you “who she is,” or perhaps even she asks you, “So who shall I say I am?”
See? Same problem. You’re both a little confused. As I’ve talked about before, societal nomenclature around these topics is stupidly only designed for the people at the two extremes of completely single or who have very serious partners. It’s silly, but that’s how it is.
The answer to the above question is the same answer for monogamous people. The answer is she’s a “woman I’m dating.” That’s it. An MLTR is a “woman you’re dating.” “Hey Joe! So is this your girlfriend? Or friend?” She’s a “woman I’m dating.”
That’s it. It’s both concise and accurate. Don’t get into a big discussion about it. Most people will just nod and move on.
What if she doesn’t like that term “woman you’re dating?” Just shrug and ask her what she would prefer. I honestly don’t care what I identify an MLTR as long as it’s the truth. If she wants you to identify her as your “girlfriend,” that would be lying (as well as an extremely dangerous boyfriend behavior), so obviously you’re not going to do that. But beyond that, call her whatever she wants to be called if “woman you’re dating” isn’t to her liking. It doesn’t really matter. (Even “friend” can be accurate.)
You don’t introduce her as a “woman you’re dating.” Just introduce her using her name. Only do the “woman you’re dating” or “we’re dating” thing if directly asked.
Obviously, if she’s your OLTR, then she’s your girlfriend, so that’s easy. (Just remember that no woman should be your OLTR until she’s been in your dating life for at least six months and has been low-drama and low-jealousy the entire time and she’s survived The Talk. It took a year and a half of dating Pink Firefly before she became my OLTR. It took my last serious relationship even longer than that.)
How To Deal With Social Media
It has always been my strong advice that you always keep your relationship status blank and hidden on your Facebook page. People who put “In A Relationship” on their social media profiles are just asking for trouble, drama, and awkward questions, particularly when the relationship ends, which it will. Not to mention when other new women you’re trying to bring into your sex life see your relationship status and get confused, or even angry. Putting your relationship status on your Facebook page, even if it’s “Single,” is literally a no-win scenario for the Alpha Male 2.0. On my personal Facebook page, my relationship status has been blank and hidden for literally the entire time I’ve been on Facebook (almost ten years), and I’ve never had a problem because of it.
The one possible exception to this is if you are actually living with a woman under an OLTR Marriage and you indentify her as your wife. I guess you could put “Married” if you really want to, but I still would not do this. It’s no one’s fucking business what your relationship status is; that’s a deeply personal matter, but I acknowledge this is an old and outdated way of thinking in our new social media-dominated world.
As I’ve talked about in my books, if you’re in sarging mode and building a roster of MLTR’s and FB’s, it’s a good idea to see activity on your Facebook page that involves other women. You don’t want women being too blatant on your page. “Hey Joe! I had a really great time with you on our date last night! Can’t wait to see you again!” That would be too much. But you do want women (ideally attractive women) commenting or liking your posts and pictures. This is fantastic EFA and frame setting for FB’s and MLTR’s alike, without you rubbing it in their faces.
You can even have pics with you and women at various social events, particularly if you’re a younger guy (under the age of about 28 or so). What you don’t want is sappy, beta male, “serious looking,” lovey-dovey pics with you and a sweetheart. (The only exception to this is if you have a very long-term, proven OLTR and you’ve got plenty of long-term FB’s on the side to last you many years. And shit, even then, keep that beta crap to a minimum.)
Defending Her
What about defending her against people who find out she and you are in a nonmonogamous relationship? A lot of you seem concerned about defending your MLTR’s (and/or possibility an OLTR) against things like haters, harassment, and shaming language if the “word gets out” about the sexual nature of your relationship.
I have a decade of experience working with women in serious and semi-serious relationships with me managing this kind of problem. Here’s what I can tell you…
It is almost never as bad as you expect. A lot of guys are really worried about this, but the reality is that it either won’t happen at all, or will only happen with people she already doesn’t like very much. Only on rare occasions does it actually get bad enough where it really concerns her or hurts her feelings. So don’t stress too much about this.
As talked about a few weeks ago, people are getting much more accustomed to nonmonogamous relationships now than they were just ten years ago. Ten years ago, if a woman told her girlfriend, sister, or mother that the guy she’s dating is openly having sex with other women, you’d almost always get a horrified reaction and an immediate demand to drop the bastard immediately. Today, this still happens occasionally, but quite often, women react in a more neutral manner like “Well, that must be hard, but at least he’s being honest. You’ve got to give him that.” Or, “Well, yeah, Amber has an open relationship with her boyfriend. I would never do that, but she seems okay with it.”
So again, don’t worry. It’s not going to be as bad as many of you seem to fear.
The first person a woman tells about her new nonmonogamous relationship is usually her best girlfriend. The second person she tells is usually her mom. These are the two people you’ll have to “respond” to if they give her any negativity. Girlfriend’s reaction will be neutral to negative, mom’s will usually be negative. The good news is that mom has likely been divorced and or cheated on by men multiple times, and her daughter is well aware of it. As always, monogamy doesn’t work, and monogamy and traditional marriage in the Western world has become so thoroughly damaged that even the most pro-monogamy people can’t deny that anymore. The fact that your new MLTR literally has women all around her who have been cheated on, broken up, and divorced gives you more ammo for your side than anything you could possibly say.
In terms of being a white knight and “defending” your MLTR, don’t do it. If you get involved, you’ll just make the entire scenario worse. Instead, it’s better to “coach” your MLTR (or in some cases, OLTR) on what to say or not say when people flip them shit about this.
Here’s what I’ve told MLTR’s in the past on what to do, say, or think in these situations:
1. Don’t try to argue with the person or change the person’s mind. Just roll your eyes and move on.
2. Remember that the odds are almost 100% that the person attacking you for the nonmonogamous relationship you have has had monogamy fail, and fail badly, in their lives multiple times… cheating, drama, breakups, divorces, etc. This person is therefore not qualified to give relationship advice, or even opinions.
Seriously, one of the biggest problems women have is that whenever they need relationship advice, they ask their girlfriends, moms, or sisters, all of whom have had a long trail of horrible, failed relationships. Then why the fuck are you asking them for relationship advice?!? Women, even very intelligent women, never seem to consider the source for their relationship advice. It’s simply amazing. (This is one of the things men do much better than women.)
3. Look how happy this person is in his/her current relationship or past relationships. Are they really happy? (Usually they are not.) Then who cares what they think?
4. Remind the person that you are allowed to go have sex with other men if you want. If the person attacking you is a woman, ask her if she is allowed to do that with her current boyfriend or husband. (Note: This only applies to women under 33. Women over 33 will usually lie and say that they will literally never want to fuck anyone else, which of course is biologically impossible unless she literally doesn’t have sex at all.)
Women also tend to assume that “open relationship” means the man can have sex with other women but the woman isn’t allowed to have sex with other men. Make sure the woman attacking you doesn’t assume this. Alpha Male 2.0’s are extremely rare in society, so it’s unlikely a woman bitching about “open relationships” has ever seen or experienced such a man before.
5. If the person attacking them is someone they already don’t really like, terminate the conversation with them, block their number on your phone, and block them on social media. Why maintain such a relationship at all? I certainly don’t.
6. If the person attacking them is someone they do like or respect, remind her (your MLTR) that this person is just trying to look out for you and that they can only give advice based on their own (usually false) Societal Programming and experiences. If they’ve never had a nonmonogamous relationship, they’ve never had experience with such a thing.
That’s about it. There’s more to be said about all this, but the above scenarios will cover 80% or more of the issues or questions you may have about this topic.
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RandomJin
Posted at 05:41 am, 20th July 2017Great article! I have been waiting for this topic for quite some time. There are still some questions that I have about this topic though.
What would you do, if a guy comes up to your MLTR and invites her for a drink when you’re both at a party? Just laugh it off and focus on having fun yourself?
I wonder if it’s “beta behaviour” to let guys flirt with your MLTR or vice versa in front of your face in these situations. Do you have any boundaries for this?
Also, what would you do if a girlfriend of hers or a family member makes fun of you/tries to provoke you/annoys you or anything like that?
You can’t really soft next these people in this situation. Does it lower your value when you don’t standup for yourself in that scenario?
CSR
Posted at 05:55 am, 20th July 2017This is interesting as the nomenclatures could change depending on the language and/or region. As I am Spanish, I’ll try to do the equivalent Spanish terms:
With FBs: as BD says, there should be no social problems in this case but just for the record, in Spanish “fuck buddy” is translated as “follamigo/a” which means “fuck friend”. We also say “amigo/a con derechos” which matches “friend with benefits”. It’s 1:1 equivalent.
With OLTRs: we would just say “es mi novia” (she’s my girlfriend) or “es mi mujer/esposa” (she’s my wife). So not a problem here. Note that the literal translation of “novia” is bride (“novio” for groom). In English you use these terms only for the wedding day but in Spanish we also use them for the boy/girlfriend status.
With MLTRs: “dating someone” is the equivalent of the Spanish “salir con alguien” (literally “going out with someone”). The difference is, from what I’m seeing, that “dating” is more flexible in English. If we say “dating”, in Spain everybody will assume that she’s indeed your girlfriend.
So in this case I’d rather stick with “just friends” with no more explanations whatsoever, and let the other person imagine the rest. If they ask if she’s actually your girlfriend or if you only have a “rollo” (equivalent of the first stages of a relationship) I’d say that “we see each other frequently but nothing very serious”.
(correct me if I’m wrong with my English assumptions)
Cherie86
Posted at 06:29 am, 20th July 2017My personal view on this is you shouldn’t care at all if guys are hitting on her when you are together. If YOU brought her to the party, and are there together however, I think she should be respectful of you and engage in a little brief flirting if she wants (nothing wrong with that) and let the new guy know she is there with someone tonight, but would love to catch a drink another time & exchange #s. That is how I would handle it at least.
“LET” guys flirt with her? I hear some Alpha 1.0 mindset coming through here. Are you saying you wouldn’t flirt with another hot girl that was there if she came on to you? Of course you would.
My OLTR and I ran into some sticky situations with this earlier on in our relationship. He would take me out somewhere, and was very concerned about alot of people in his social circle knowing he was in a relationship, as word could get around, and at that time, he was using alot of social status to get laid within his circles. I assumed, since he was taking me out, we were going to be out together and have a good time as usual. A girl there started hitting on him, and he spent most of the night flirting with her instead, and left me alone. It really bothered me at that time. Afterwards, we agreed that we would communicate before going out in what capacity that would be (ei, we would be out together, with the intent on spending time together, or just out, at the same place, free to do whatever we want). That helped clarify things quite a bit and save us both some hassle.
CrabRangoon
Posted at 07:56 am, 20th July 2017Wow BD timely! I just had the “defending her” conversation with a MLTR I’ve had for just over a year and brought up a lot of the same points you listed. This Alpha 2.0 stuff is really clicking thanks to blogs like yours! I can’t thank you enough.
The person giving her shit was actually a mutual friend (the MLTR is form social circle game) and her life, especially romantic life, is an utter train wreck and has been since I’ve known her, going on 10 years. My MLTR does have those “i’m not sure I can do this” moments and little hints of jealousy but she is handling it well until friends like this chime in. I reminded her that this girl has no business giving anyone relationship advice since she has never been able to get anything going and just burns through men-and she’s borderline alcoholic.
Part of me wanted to confront the mutual friend to just get her off the MLTR’s back but something also kicked in telling me don’t bother, it’ll just make it worse.
End of it all, she agreed that her life with me in it is better and she’s really enjoying the time we spend and the sexual chemistry. Why end it if it’s overall making you happy?? I hope you’re right about non-monogamous relationships becoming more accepted. I have been seeing more and more articles floating around about this very thing, even written by women, so it’s encouraging. Still though, most of these article comment sections are chocked full of SP and traditional thinking so most are still not open to it.
Parade
Posted at 08:27 am, 20th July 2017has never seen or experienced
Small correction: ‘has ever’ or the ‘unlikely’ before should be ‘likely’
Leon
Posted at 08:38 am, 20th July 2017Nice article BD,
What to do when you accidently meet your OLTR’s parents and they ask whether you are serious with her or not and whether you want to marry her or not? (assuming you don’t want marriage anytime soon, even OM)
Btw, when should you consider upgrading an OLTR to OM (assuming she accepts it and has been a great OLTR all along)? In my experience non-mono guys never really want marriage since many things can go wrong and hurt your frame, but your girl can’t wait forever I suppose, so when is the right time to consider an upgrade?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:12 am, 20th July 2017Yes, assuming she actually took his offer, which in most cases she probably would not. Most MLTR’s I’ve been with would have politely declined.
No. She’s free to flirt with anyone she wants, and if she does, I’m free to turn right around and go flirt with another woman at the party who is both younger and hotter than her. (Yes, I have done this.) There are no “rules” on each other in a MLTR. That’s the beauty of the MLTR. She’s free to do whatever the hell she wants… and so are you.
Poke fun at them right back, although more intensely. Leave or soft next if it continues (which it probably won’t).
Them: “OMG. You guys fuck other people! Wow, nice!” <snigger>
You (spoken very loudly so everyone can hear) “Didn’t your last two boyfriends cheat on you?” <big smile>
Yes you can. Read this.
Good point. You’ll need to adjust everything I’m saying for your own language and culture.
WTF? How the hell would this “accidentally” happen? That’s your fault dude.
I would smile and politely tell them that the personal details of my relationship life are none of their business. Then I would ask myself why I was such a dumbass for doing something as stupid as “accidentally” running into my OLTR’s parents.
I have met Pink Firefly’s parents, but it was not “by accident.” Jesus. It was a pre-planned event that occurred at the proper time. Take control of your life. It’s not that hard.
Of course… if you’re over the age of 35 and it’s something you really want and you are fully aware of all the downsides (of which there are many) and she’s been an OLTR for quite a while (a year or more) and been great and you take all the precautions I’ve listed in my blogs and books and you have a nice solid portfolio of active FB’s on the side. I’m doing that with my OLTR soon, but I’ve met all the criteria.
They are correct, as I’ve explained many times. Moving in with a woman is very risky unless you structure things very differently than what most people do, and most men aren’t going to take the time to get all the financial, legal, sexual, and emotional logistics in place to make living with a woman a least-bad scenario, usually instead just turning it into a de facto monogamous live-in relationship with some combined finances (which is death to an Alpha Male).
When you meet all the criteria above.
RandomJin
Posted at 12:19 pm, 20th July 2017I’ve had a situation where a friendzoned guy put his arm around my MLTR. Remembering the rules, I resisted saying or doing anything stupid and instead did nothing. But inside it FELT like I had to do something about this situation. In that case, would you recommend just leaving the interaction and looking for other girls to flirt with?
My main concern about this approach is that it seems like reactive behaviour. You flirting with other girls just because she does.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:45 pm, 20th July 2017Standing there and doing nothing is indeed extreme beta behavior, which is why I’m not recommending that.
If a dude puts his arm around her, you need to look at her reaction. That tells you what you need to do.
– If she gently pushes his arm away, you don’t need to do anything.
– If she looks really uncomfortable and embarrassed, you need to say the to guy in a soft but firm voice, “Please take your arm off her. She’s clearly uncomfortable.”
– If she clearly looks like she’s enjoying it, then smile, laugh, turn around, and go flirt with some other chick (ideally one younger and hotter than her, which shouldn’t be hard if it’s a party).
“Reactive” behavior usually means a negative reaction. “Hey, why are you flirting with that guy? Don’t do that!!!” That’s Alpha Male 1.0 stuff, and thus unacceptable if you want to live a happy life.
But in terms of a positive behavior (flirting with other women and having a great time) that is also a reaction to something she does, sometimes you need to choose between that and looking like a beta. Looking like a beta is always worse.
Cherie86
Posted at 12:54 pm, 20th July 2017BD,
How should one handle being seen repeatedly with a woman you are dating in social circles? As mentioned, my BF has had concerns about people perceiving that he is, in fact, in a relationship, and that hurting his possible game with women as word gets around.
Kurt
Posted at 01:14 pm, 20th July 2017A lot of discussion here related to this topic, I mostly agree with the above. I feel it should be similar to how you relate with platonic friends; you don’t get upset at them having other friends or doing things with other friends, but if you have decided to spend time doing something together it is rude to then ditch that person or ignore them over someone else you may be interested in. e.g., If you buy two movie tickets and you invite your friend to come along and they agree, you both reasonably expect that you will keep the date and that you won’t suddenly decide to do something with someone else at the last minute. Doing so would be rude. So it wouldn’t upset you to learn that your friend just went to the movies with another friend, but if you showed up expecting to go to the movie with them and they said ‘oh sorry, I’m giving the ticket to my other friend and going with them now’ and waltzed off with another person you would be rightfully pissed at them because they were being rude to you.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:23 pm, 20th July 2017He’s in an OLTR so if he doesn’t like people knowing he has girlfriend, that’s his problem. Either A) he shouldn’t be looking for FB’s who don’t know he has a girlfriend in your mutual social circles or B) he should downgrade you to MLTR, where his attitude about this would make more sense.
To illustrate this, just imagine if PF and I went to a party with a bunch of mutual friends, and I said, “Now look, I don’t want you to tell any of these people you’re my girlfriend because I’m trying to bang a few of these chicks.” How do you think that would go over? How realistic an expectation is that?
Now if a woman is an MLTR, that’s different. I have indeed said things like that to a MLTR or two in the past, and I’ve had many MLTR’s bring me other women to have sex with from their social circles. It was fucking great, but that wasn’t an OLTR. With an OLTR there needs to be some level of separation (unless you’re both really into threesomes).
So your BF needs to get congruent with what he wants, fast. Right now he seems a little confused by trying to have his cake and eat it too.
Saracen III
Posted at 02:50 pm, 20th July 2017I just said (and this was 10 years ago) “I have two girlfriends”.
No-one gave me shit about it.
Jack Outside the Box
Posted at 03:53 pm, 20th July 2017Then tell her to marry someone else! Solved! I wouldn’t tolerate my girlfriend making me wait for anything I wanted badly either. You shouldn’t make your girl wait. That’s cruel. Tell her she has your permission to find a husband ASAP.
Then when he cheats on her or she gets bored and starts cheating on him, start fucking her again.
Inviting the government into your bedroom is not an upgrade. It’s an act of retardation.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 04:00 pm, 20th July 2017Agree, but involving the government in your OLTR Marriage is not required. Read this.
Tom
Posted at 05:06 pm, 20th July 2017Thanks be. I have been here from the start. And after failing to convert a marriage into a open marriage. I have been single and dating with your help. I can see some of this playing out very soon.
Keep it up.
donnie demarco
Posted at 05:56 pm, 20th July 2017If you are an older man who dates very young women, you will likely encounter an alternate form of this phenomenon. Instead of people directly asking you stupid questions, you will overhear people making stupid assumptions like:
“Ew, how old is that man? Oh my god, how young is that poor girl? He’s obviously a sugar daddy/she’s obviously a gold digger/prostitute, etc. etc.”
I personally find this very irritating, because I work hard to give girls good dick. And I won’t have my social proof/reputation tarnished by some basic ass bitches. Here’s how I deal with it:
First, I reset my mental state. When an Alpha 2.0 doesn’t like his environment, he changes it, and he needs to be in a positive mental state to do so. The easiest way for me to do this is, whenever I hear a stupid comment, I look at them and think: “when was the last time those people had hot, passionate sex?”. I always feel better immediately.
Once I’m comfortable, the next step is to make your date comfortable. The standard first date tricks are good for this (kino, sex talk, etc.). If she can hear the idiots talking about her, ask her the same question: “Do you think those people talking about us have good sex? I think they’re just jealous because we’re the hottest couple in the bar”. If you can get her comfortable enough to where she’s smiling and leaning into you and touching you like normal, you’ve basically won because everyone will see that her attraction is genuine (and you’ll notice a big change in the people around you).
This is more of a frame thing, but there are a few other factors that contribute. I wear cheap (but well-chosen) clothes, and I drive a piece of shit car. I also like to have my dates pay for a drink or a meal while we’re out. Oh, she’s a gold digger, huh? How about that shit?
donnie demarco
Posted at 06:09 pm, 20th July 2017It’s not beta. Beta behavior is worrying about this at all.
When I go out, guys ALWAYS make moves on my dates. Some are sneaky (subtly hunting for eye contact), some less so (hit on her while I’m in the bathroom), and VERY RARELY they will hit on her directly in front of me. If you date lots of hot bitches, you should expect this.
Unfortunately this is one of those things you can’t fake. Your confidence has to be real. If you KNOW she’s into you, and you KNOW you fuck her good/make her feel good, and you KNOW that most guys won’t be able to give her what you give her, then you will KNOW that she won’t leave you. And your frame will be rock solid.
BD is right, it’s rare. I’ve NEVER been ditched by an MLTR (most of my women are MLTRs), but ironically I’ve lost more than one club-girl-who-was-willing-to-go-home-with-me because she left me for another guy and I didn’t chase. But that’s not too bad. I mean, she’s the one that lost out.
B
Posted at 08:53 pm, 20th July 2017Great article!
I’ve found myself in a new situation and have a question that relates to what was said…
Recently (2 weeks ago) my 4.5 year OLTR ended. I have a few FB’s I would like to upgrade to MLTR but am wondering if/when it is appropriate to do so, and if/when I should tell them that I no longer have a “girlfriend”. I rather like the no-pressure relationship structures I currently have with them considering they still think I have a girlfriend, but a couple of them are real MLTR candidates (super sweet, kinky, fun, no jealousy, and they bring me other women to bang). I just don’t want to fuck up my frame as I only have experience with OLTR+FB relationships.
Sergei
Posted at 09:57 pm, 20th July 2017Very nice post and long awaited! Some questions:
Regarding MLTRs:
Considering you don’t overdo it and get too boyfriend-girlfriend or beta, when your with an MLTR in a social enviroment the degree of which you are being romantic/sexual with her is determined by personal preference and doesn’t matter that much. Correct? Also, if you could give a general rule of where is that limit where you start overdoing it, it would be very helpful.
In a previous blog post you say that it is extremely unlikely to bump on one of your women while accompanied by another one of your women. This is untrue when we are talking about social circles. For example it is not unlikely at all to go to a party with an MLTR and see your other MLTR there. Should we try to avoid these situations (this could be a pain in the ass and something very self-limiting)? Also, in these situations how should we behave?
The problem of you being perceived as “taken” because you demonstrated a romantic relationship with an MLTR in a social enviroment can be overcome by demonstrating that it is not a monogamous one. Either by bringing multiple MLTRs in the same social enviroment (not at the same night as that would not work so well as a technique) or by a seducing new or old targets. Also, this reinforces your preselection and EFA unless your social circle is too conservative in nature.
Regarding FBs:
If you have FBs from your social circle it is possible that you see them in social enviroments although you are following the rules and not going out on dates with her. In such cases you behave to her as a normal friend. You may flirt a bit or do some sexual innuendos but no romantic behavior (of course, since she is an FB) and no sexual behavior unless you are seducing her to fuck her that night/day. Correct?
Moreover, the above statement implies that you can make FBs out of your female friends. I believe this to be correct as long as the equation “Sex frequency=1/friendship level” doenst get violated. For example you can even have sex or participate in an orgy with your female-bestie as long as you’re doing it around once a month or so. Do you agree?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:04 pm, 20th July 2017You can tell them right now, but you need to play it cool. Next time you talk to them, just say casually, as part of the conversation, “Yeah, I broke up with my girlfriend,” and just move on with other topics. Then the next time you see them, you can pitch other things, like going out, or whatever. Take it slow.
Correct.
Like you said, as long as you don’t get too lovey-boyfriend-girlfriend-beta, there is no limit.
Dating multiple women as MLTR’s within the same social circle is an entirely different scenario and outside the scope of what I’m talking about in this post. Perhaps I will make a separate article talking about that someday.
The bottom line is that dating multiple women in the same social circle, as MLTR’s, is extraordinarily dangerous and it’s almost impossible not to get some drama and pushback from doing that. I strongly recommend against it and I’ve never done it myself, by design, but I know from my audience that a lot of guys do this anyway.
Having multiple FB’s within a social circle is perfectly fine (I’ve done that a lot and it works great!) but having multiple, active MLTR’s in the same circle is going to be dicey and problematic now matter how well you handle it. (That’s why you shouldn’t do it unless you don’t mind drama.)
True. That’s fine. She won’t care.
Correct! I personally wouldn’t even flirt, but that’s me.
I’ve run into various FB’s and ex-FB’s around my hometown on several occasions, like at the store, and I’m sure I will again. I just stay friendly. At the very most there might be a friendly hug but that’s it. But again, that’s me. If you want to flirt a little, especially if it’s just the two of you, that’s fine.
Of course. That’s social circle game. Go right ahead.
You can fuck her up to once a week. But no more. I doesn’t have to be once a month but once a month is perfectly fine.
Daniel
Posted at 11:47 pm, 20th July 2017There are no “rules” on each other in a MLTR. That’s the beauty of the MLTR. She’s free to do whatever the hell she wants… and so are you.
If you have had the talk, that is not exactly true, is it? You list a large number of potential rules in your book which you would normally agree on with a girl after having the talk (e.g. regarding condom use).
You also generally assure women that you will be _discreet_ in your playing around, don’t you? (is this only for OLTR’s?)
Have you ever agreed with a woman that the two of you would not sexually pursue one another’s close friends, acquaintances, or relatives? What do you think of such a rule?
Personally I’m totally fine with her hooking up with men I don’t know at all, but I have to admit the thought that she might start hooking up with my brother or co-worker bothers me. It seems disrespectful, and in any case, I tend to feel that as far as our _mutual_ social circle is concerned, there’s no reason for them to be aware of the “open” status of our relationship generally.
Hoping we can get more articles related to this topic, such as checking all those boxes you mention before getting into an OLTR, how to manage a live-in properly and the downsides, etc.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:24 am, 21st July 2017Yes, it’s still true. The Talk has nothing to do with it.
No I don’t. The only “rule” is that she can’t threaten my personal safety (condom use, etc). That’s it. But that’s a “rule” even before The Talk.
Correct. That’s for an OLTR. There are no rules in an MLTR. There are indeed some in an OLTR.
Yes, but that kind of thing is only for high-end MLTR’s and OLTR. For those kinds of very serious relationships, those kinds of mutually agreed-to rules are fine. But for standard MLTR’s, there are no rules. I can have sex with her mom (and have), her sister (and have), her best friend (and have)…
Outcome independence. It doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve had at least three women in the past express a desire to fuck one of my better-looking brothers. I told them all to go right ahead, and I meant it. They didn’t, but I would have allowed it. Who cares if they fuck my brother? I don’t. I have bigger things in my life to focus on.
Those are just your inner fears talking, stemming from both false Societal Programming and Obsolete Biological Wiring. There’s a little Alpha 1.0 in there as well.
Sure; that’s totally up to you.
I will always post articles on nonmonogamous relationships here. However the most important, technical stuff will be published in upcoming books. In just two months I have brand new, very big book focused just on this (nonmono relationships) and it’s the biggest Blackdragon book I’ve ever written in my life. (I was working on it all day today.)
And I have a second one planned for next year.
Lots of good stuff coming.
JEB
Posted at 01:54 am, 21st July 2017It’s great to see a lot of Alpha 2.0 pursuers commenting on this threat. To be honest, I had stopped following up on the comments due to so many men posting “Yeah, I’m trying <Alpha 2.0 relationship strategy> with my monogamous girlfriend and it isn’t working at all”. No shit. It’s even worse on the Alpha 2.0 community site, where almost all advice seeking is reclaiming frame in a monogamous relationship. Hell, even long-distance monogamous relationships.
Great article on the subject. I think everyone who is afraid of all the very specific questions from the woman they’re dating / her mom / the local witch doctor / the president should know that it very rarely happens. If you have balls / OI you can answer them any way you like, anyway. I usually just tell people the overt truth, because they can think whatever they want. Usually, people meet the answer with curiosity rather than frustration anyway, since everyone knows deep down (especially women) that monogamy doesn’t work.
Roberto
Posted at 02:26 am, 21st July 2017I think it’s harder to convert a monogamous relationship into a non-monogamous one than it is to start a non-monogamous one. Probably stating the obvious, but there you go. It can be a bigger problem for guys trying to move to a different type of relationship.
In my experience the people that create the most fuss about non-monogamous relationships (apart, perhaps, from girls’ mothers) are the ones for whom monogamy has patently failed (or is failing). But younger women (say up to early twenties) often don’t tell their mother (in my experience), or their father.
But I agree, most people are basically uninterested or too polite to probe very much or else pretty relaxed about it. I suppose that must depend to an extent on where you are and on what social circles you’re mixing in.
JEB
Posted at 04:21 am, 21st July 2017I actually didn’t even bother trying to reframe my relationship back in the day – The chances of success are slim to none. I’m glad I just decided to call it quits. I do think it’s still nice that BD, among others, is selling the idea anyway, since it at least helps people come to terms with their blue pill conditioning in a much less invasive way than telling them to “divorce your wife, then go fuck women”. And I’m sure his book about the subject is much more explanatory in how to pull off a more subtle frame-grab.
I live in a country where everyone moves away from home when they are 18-20 years old, which causes many to never tell their parents about their relationships unless it gets super-duper serious. I’m sure I’ll see them telling their parents about it more often when/if I start dating women who are close to The Wall.
Certainly, but who’d want to be in a deeply conservative social circle anyway. If the people in one of my social circles started disapproving of some of my behavior (let’s say they all get married and have kids, then I’m sure I’ll get more than a few remarks), I’d just leave that social circle. I’ve never experienced true disapproval so far (to my face), but I’m certain that has a lot to do with frame and OI as well.
Roberto
Posted at 05:02 am, 21st July 2017If I’m honest, I was never monogamous in reality. From the age that I first had a girlfriend I was fucking around – in other words, cheating. I saw monogamy as the “norm” but I never achieved it, nor did I really want to, again being honest. After causing hurt to several girlfriends who expected fidelity, and realising this was not fair to them, dishonest to myself and not conducive to happiness generally, I “formally” moved away from the monogamy model (if I can put it like that) just after I finished my undergraduate degree at university (I was 22). But I see guys struggling to “convert” or reframe their current relationship: as you say, generally not really possible.
Lovergirl
Posted at 08:06 am, 21st July 2017It just seems blatantly disrespectful for either party to be heavily flirting with others when they go someplace “together”, whether in a monogamous relationship or not. It would be embarrassing to be with a guy who was hitting on other women. Earlier this summer I was at a concert with some girlfriends and a drunk guy walked up to me, girlfriend in tow, and started going on about how he liked my dress and then put his hand on my thigh, halfway touching my ass. Afterwards he went on leering at more women and we were all so embarrassed for the poor woman he was with as they were walking away. It just makes a guy look like a sleazeball loser when he’s with a woman and hitting on others. It’s likewise trashy for a woman to entertain too much male attention when she is with a guy. Not recommended.
I would say if you are in public with an MLTR you should behave just as you would if you were dating in a monogamous fashion, minus the title. Back when we were younger we didn’t say “dating” we said “talking”. “So I’m talking to this guy but we aren’t seriously dating”. That implies you are seeing one another but not so seriously yet that you can’t see others. That doesn’t mean you need to rub it in their face, because that’s just rude.
POB
Posted at 09:59 am, 21st July 2017Regarding social occasions, it’s very simple:
FB: treat her as a friend;
MLTR: treat her as a friend who needs a bit more care (aka discretion);
OLTR: treat her as your GF (no flirting with other women in public);
I have a friend who’s a personal trainer and fucks almost every single hot chick that comes to our gym. He’s just friends with them all and they don’t seem to care about who he fucks on the side (most of them have boyfriends LOL).
Girls bitch and babble about Disney and SP but they sure know how Alphas behave sexually. We just have to be polite, funny and discreet.
Sergei
Posted at 10:15 am, 21st July 2017Ohhhhhh, ok! I had never heard that from you, now everything is much more clear. So you basically want to keep your MLTR’s social circles separate as much as possible. I will also wait for that article.
I forgot to ask you if you agree with that. But let me rephrase:
The problem of you being perceived as “taken” because you demonstrated a romantic relationship with an MLTR in a social enviroment can be overcome by demonstrating that it is not a monogamous one. You can do that by seducing new or old targets. For example if you go to a party with an MLTR one night but the other night you go there with your friends and at the end of the night you start heavy flirting with an FB you bumped into or a gal you just met and take her home with you. Also, this reinforces your preselection and EFA unless your social circle is too conservative in nature. Do you agree?
This can’t seem to be working too well at all cases for me. At times I have close female friends that if I made them once a week FBs and kept the rest of our relationship the same, I would break all the rules (too much chatting, too much face-to-face, too much physical contact in social enviroments etc) But I think I could still fuck them once a month or participate in an orgy or two with them without any problem. What do you think?
Also, one new question: If your current or ex FBs verbalize in social enviroments anything about your sexual relationship it just benefits you with preselection, right?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:26 pm, 21st July 2017Much harder.
I have a book about that, but it’s only for married couples. Maybe I should write an article for normal boyfriend-betas trying to convert things to Alpha 2.0.
No. There are some of those behaviors that are okay, but a guy with a monogamous girlfriend in public is going to do a lot more fawning, public displays of affection, holding her purse, glaring at other men who look at her, taking selfies together, and all kinds of other sappy ass-kissing beta (or Alpha 1.0) behaviors. Most of these are not at all appropriate for hanging out with a MLTR in public.
Correct. Owen’s “Secret Society.”
AlphaOmega
Posted at 02:42 am, 22nd July 2017Can you also write something – book/article – about getting with girls who have boyfriends? You seem to have advised previously that such girls make perfect FB, and it seems logical, but I have not seen anything from you how to get them. Ive met many girls who had boyfriends and who were clearly into me but they rarely go for it, so I guess there are some techniques…
David
Posted at 05:14 am, 22nd July 2017My only argument for monogamy is condoms. I can’t keep a hard on with one, let alone reach climax. So open relationships, fuck buddies, and randoms are fun, but I never finish because I’m wrapped. With a monogamous girlfriend, usually they eventually go on the pill or something and I can finally enjoy myself.
Other than that, the alpha 2.0 thing really helped me stop looking for “the one” and start building a Rolodex of lovers. It really takes away the power any 1 woman can have over you… which actually draws them all to you more because of your carefree attitude !
AlphaOmega
Posted at 06:12 am, 22nd July 2017David,
Same here. That is a major problem for me also, though I have seen it was “ok” with some girls, like if shes super hot and or really tight it can be good still, maybe same for you?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:32 am, 22nd July 2017They rarely have boyfriends when I first get them. They get them later in the relationship.
That isn’t a problem with condoms or nonmonogamy. That’s a problem with you. In other words, most men don’t have that problem. Do what’s necessary and fix it.
You are also more than welcome to not use a condom on an OLTR or high-end MLTR.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 11:47 am, 22nd July 2017So you dont have much experience / advice in getting girls with boyfriends, and usually just go for single girls? It seems pretty hard to get any proper advice on this subject.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:45 pm, 22nd July 2017I don’t screen women so I go for everyone, boyfriend or not, particularity if she’s on a dating site with an active profile. (I do avoid married women though, unless they’re in an open marriage.) Some women on dating sites have boyfriends but the vast majority who do are there just to attention whore and won’t agree to actually go out on a first date with you.
So yes, most women I initially get are single to some degree (there are often other guys they’re having sex with occasionally, but no full-on boyfriend). There are exceptions to this, but I don’t calibrate my game any differently with them.
Over time, most of my FB’s get boyfriends. As a matter of fact, I think most probably do. Which yeah, I like. (Takes all the pressure off of me.)
Just follow this simple rule. If a woman:
– Is under the age of 23
– Is attracted to you at least a little
– And is not in your shared social circle
Then she will happily fuck you assuming you do everything correctly. There is no “difference” in how you approach or escalate with her. If she has a boyfriend and one of those above conditions are untrue, then I would forget her and move on. Too much work.
Roberto
Posted at 01:10 am, 23rd July 2017David, by mutual agreement, I regularly ride one of my women bareback. I trust her to practise safe sex with other partners and vice versa. I don’t have problems finishing with a condom on, but even so my not wearing one obviously makes more difference to me than it does to her, but there are big advantages for her too, notably that it’s possible to be much more spontaneous if I’m not worried about covering up.
In terms of your problems finishing when you’re covered up, I presume you tried all the usual things (different brands, a drop of lube on the inside of the condom before you put it on, changing to female condoms, etc)?
Duke
Posted at 01:00 pm, 23rd July 2017I try to steer away from mixing my relationships into the social realm. It seems that there lots of potential problems and not very many benefits unless you’re an extrovert and or care about social validation. Call me paranoid, but I’m like Costanza on Seinfeld who doesn’t want his two worlds colliding.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:07 pm, 23rd July 2017Yes.
I think you’re in friend zone with too many girls.
And if you talk to a girl all the time but only fuck her once a month or less, that’s almost friend zone; it’s absolutely within the friend zone “zone.” I would never do this.
Correct, unless your a MLTR is standing right next to you when she does it. Then you’ll get preselection and drama.
Many Alpha 1.0’s do this; engage in things that do indeed increase social proof, preselection, and attraction but also increase conflict and drama. Your job is to get these things without the drama.
Dafid
Posted at 02:42 pm, 23rd July 2017Alphaomega, actually I climaxed 2 times in the last 15 years while covered. Both times with an asian!
Roberto, Ive never used a female condom. Where do I put it? Up my anus? I dont think that will protect me or the woman, but I will try.
Lovergirl
Posted at 04:59 pm, 23rd July 2017In always amazed that there are actually people in the world that are super responsible about condom usage. I haven’t come across many lol.
Parade
Posted at 05:34 pm, 23rd July 2017Where do I put it? Up my anus?
https://alphamale20.com/2016/10/24/female-condoms/
AlphaOmega
Posted at 01:18 am, 24th July 2017Yeah it does make a difference. If shes not very tight I just dont feel it enough with a condom on. I had a super hot girl I had awesome sex with without condom but with a condom it didn’t work at all. But I guess it makes sense, she was after two kids so not that tight anymore. I had another girl few months ago who was not that attractive but very tight and with her it felt like as if I didn’t have the condom on and I easily finished twice in same evening.
I think there are ways you can train yourself to become more sensitive. Other than that, I dont know, then its a question of risk vs reward and you have to see when to use it and when not to. Most of last few months I had two girls one I did with a condom and one without. They both knew and accepted, but needless to say the sex with the condom girl was terrible, so I cant say that worked.
yeah, thats what she said
POB
Posted at 05:51 am, 24th July 2017Oh, almost forgot. To achieve that kind of “power” that secret society gives you you must absolutely never talk about your sex life with other guys – unless they’re really close to you and you know for sure they can be trusted. I know it’s hard because we guys LOVE to brag about our last conquests with the opposite sex (especially when we’re on a guy’s circle) but talking about that stuff when side by side with committed (or beta) dudes will harm you in a big way!
The worst thing that can happen is you bump into one of the chodes who knows about your sex life with a hot women on your arm. Or you try to be sexual with one of the women these guys know. Or you try to be sexual with one of the women THEIR women know. Not cool at all.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 06:34 am, 24th July 2017Same about women. When you have women who are friends and tell them too much about what you do then dont expect them to be so helpful in getting new girls to you anymore. Its hard because on the other hand that leaves almost no one you can talk to about it.
roger
Posted at 05:08 pm, 25th July 2017There is still a lot of resistance to polyamorous relationships, especially propaganda from the mainstream media:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/love-sex/69342676/do-polyamorous-relationships-actually-make-for-a-better-life
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/life-style/93671241/The-rise-of-non-monogamous-dating-isn-t-convincing-me-to-try-it
Elkay Mann
Posted at 07:20 am, 28th July 2017Some time ago a FB wanted to have a little unprotected sex before putting the condom on. As she insisted, I laughed twice didn’t make a big deal about it and just fetched the condoms. I don’t have unprotected sex unless I’ve seen the ETS tests sheet with negative results AND I’m comfortable with her responsible pill taking.
Silver
Posted at 04:01 am, 14th June 2018This is all good stuff but I have to wonder how the above is actually accomplished? How can you allow someone to comment/like your post and pictures while at the same time preventing anything too descriptive from showing up?
Unless I am missing something the only way to do that is to hunt down and delete any comments that are too much, which seems counter intuitive to most of what I have read here.
Chris
Posted at 12:52 am, 9th November 2018Hi. How can one Avoid meeting a MLTR’s friends, e.g. If she invites me to a club that her friends frequent or if she states in advance that her friends will be there?
What reasons could I give for Not meeting her friends/family.
I think that is one of the cardinal rules, please correct me if mistaken and/or clarify?