07 Dec Relying Too Much on Your Sexual Market Value
For thousands of years, women have used all kinds of dating and relationship techniques in order to date, marry, snag, have babies with, and/or control men. From wearing makeup that makes her look like someone else, to wearing a push-up bra to make her boobs look bigger than they actually are, to wearing heels to make her look taller than she actually is, to imply possible sex when she knows damn well she’s not actually going to do it, to even restricting sex in order to enforce compliance, either directly (“You’re not getting any until you empty that dishwasher!”) or indirectly (“I think its so sexy when you do housework! It turns me on!”).
-By Caleb Jones
These techniques, among hundreds of others, have successfully put men under the sway of women in marriages and relationships for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I’m not saying women have been in control of society for that long; of course men have. I’m saying that women have been successfully getting what they want from men in terms of dating, relationships, marriage, children, protection, and financial support for that long, using these techniques.
Men, on the other hand, really have not had a set of techniques for getting what they want from women (with one big exception I’ll get to in a minute).
This changed, at least a little, in the early 2000’s when pick-up artist advice went mainstream. When this happened, many women went into hysterics of course, since under the feminine model, it’s perfectly fine for women to have techniques to snag men, but it’s abusive and manipulative for men to have techniques to snag women. I regularly get women on this blog saying exactly that whenever I cover specific dating or relationship techniques for men. It’s unfair and stupid, but that’s how a lot of women view this.
But I digress.
Before dating / pick-up skills for men became somewhat mainstream about 10-15 years ago, there was only one technique that men used to get women. It’s the only one they knew. It was this: Boost your SMV (sexual market value) as high as you can. In other words, get rich, get powerful, get famous, and/or get really good looking, then wave all of that in women’s faces. Then, you can have sex with (or date, or marry) all the hot girls you want.
For thousands of years, that’s all men, particularly betas, knew about how to get girls. The only exception to this was/is men are known as “naturals” who are naturally good with women just from their inborn personalities, but these men are very rare. (I was never one of these men; it would have been nice if I was. Like other men, I had to spend several years of my life learning how to attract women.)
Back in the days before pick-up/dating/relationship advice for men, focusing on your SMV made sense. There was no other way to get laid (unless you were a natural), so that was the only avenue available to you.
Is that true today?
No.
Today, unlike I had when I was a clueless beta male in the 1990’s, you have an entire internet full of pick-up, dating, and at least some relationship advice specifically tailored for men. You’ve got literally hundreds of blogs and forums, as well as thousands of YouTube videos about this. If you don’t mind spending a little money, you also have access to books and courses on how to do this.
Does all this advice work? Of course not. Are there some bullshit artists and scammers in the PUA community / manosphere? Of course. I can tell you as a business consultant with 25 years of experience, pretty much every industry has that problem.
Does that mean that none of this dating / pick-up advice works? No. A lot of it not only works, but works so great that it will blow you away, and I will now present the proof of this: Me.
In February of 2007, I started off as a badly dressed, 35 year-old, overweight, balding, divorced, 10-years-out-of-pratice-with-women, hadn’t-had-sex-in-six-months, very in debt, beta male dad who lived in a pretty much empty apartment with no bed, just a mattress on the floor in the corner.I learned and focused on pick-up and dating techniques, and they worked. By the summer of 2009, I was having sex with numerous hot girls, many of them almost 20 years younger than me, with very fast meet-to-sex times, without having to pay for any of it. And that was eight years ago; my results have greatly improved since then. If you want to know exactly how I do it, get this book and this book.
Pick-up and dating techniques work. Anyone who says they don’t is wrong. I am living proof of this.Therefore, it’s not all about SMV. It’s also about following a system that is proven to work, and not doing things that clearly blow your chances with women.
There are now going to be a bunch of you who will lose their shit and scream that I’m saying SMV doesn’t matter at all. I didn’t say that. Of course SMV is a factor. I wrote an entire analysis of SMV right here, and I clearly said that SMV aspects of wealth, appearance, etc, do matter when it comes with men’s success with women. I also said, and I’m saying again, that SMV is a factor, but not the only factor and it is not the deciding factor.
If you seriously think that SMV is the only factor in determining whether or not a man gets laid with at least cute girls, then you need to explain the chubby homeless guy who was banging all these girls that I talked about here. You need to explain the pick-up artists who I have personally met (not just read about on the internet, but personally met) who were so poor they slept on their friend’s couches, who were banging hot girls left and right. You need to explain the YouTube videos of these attractive, ripped guys who can’t get laid. You need to explain the myriad of very rich men on the sugar daddy sites who also can’t get laid. You need to explain the fat guys (not overweight, but fat) who were not rich, who I have personally coached, who ended up having sex with multiple girls who were cute enough that I would have sex with them. You need to explain the men in their fifties I personally know who are not millionaires, who are dating women as young as 25 with no problems.
Seriously, you need to logically and rationally explain these things. If you can’t, you have to admit that SMV is a factor, but not the only factor or the deciding factor.
Now that we’ve laid all that groundwork, I’ll get to my main point. Too many of you are over-relying on SMV aspects in order to get girls. You’ll tell me about problems you’re having meeting girls or first dates or online dating or whatever, and the first thing out of your mouth is that you need to make more money or get a better car.
No.
No no no.
I realize why you’re jumping to this conclusion. As Western culture continues to collapse, the manosphere messaging about how “All the rich good-looking Alphas are taking all the girls” is intensifying. The problem is I’ve already factually shown that’s bullshit, both here and here.
I also realize that male society has been focusing on SMV as the only mechanism to get girls for literally thousands of years, and that’s some pretty hard Societal Programming to shake.
But you must shake it. Because it’s bullshit.
I’ve talked before about when I was dating the most amount of women; I was living in a shitty apartment, driving an eight-year-old car, and was about 50 pounds overweight. Granted, most of those women knew I was a businessman and I dressed pretty nice, but I never gave these women any money, nor took them out on fancy dinner dates, or ever implied that they would get these things from me. And the majority of them not only had sex with me, but did so for many years, while they knew I was having sex with other women at the same time.
But you didn’t see me having trouble on dates (and I had a lot of trouble when I got started) then immediately thinking that I had to dress nicer, or make more money, or get a cooler car, or move to a cooler part of town, or get a better watch, or whatever SMV bullshit society has said is the only way to have sex with hot women.
No, instead I focused on improving my technique. And I did. And I got good, eventually.It’s also true that you need to maximize certain aspects of your SMV if you want to get good with women, since yes, SMV is a factor. I have repeatedly talked about how you have to maximize your appearance as best you can within the confines of your age and genetics (and how the older you are, the more important this is). I devote entire chapters in my books to this important aspect, and have written many articles about it here at this blog.
But, you don’t try to look better or get a better car without focusing on improving your dating and relationships skills. It’s those skills that will get you laid, not your fucking car or your six pack abs (though I agree these things can help in certain scenarios).
It’s also true, as I’ve been loudly proclaiming for years, that you do need to increase your income, particularly if you make less than $75,000. That’s basic Alpha Male 2.0 stuff. But as I’ve said perhaps hundreds of times, you don’t increase your income for women, you increase your income to be a happier man and live a better life regardless of women. I explained this in great detail here and here.
Any time you have trouble with women, and the first thought that pops into your mind is that you need to make more money, get bigger muscles, or get a better car, immediately slap yourself in the face. Those things will help, but what you really need to do is improve your skills.
You will get a much faster and great return on investment in terms of woman success by improving your dating skills than you will by making more money or losing weight (though you should do those two things anyway).
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TTPD®
Posted at 05:12 am, 7th December 2017Bottom line, Improve your sales/marketing skill. Though also you need to always continue on developing the real product as well.
It should become 80/20, when just by you maximizing 20% on marketing side, it would give you the most ROI aspect overtime.
Daniel
Posted at 05:46 am, 7th December 2017Let’s say I am like you in your 35 years old scenario,
but 3 things different than you;
virgin (but confident), 25 years old and have no business (no suit also :))
so according to the SMV, in term of age, I am lower than yours (even though we both broke), so in this differences scenario what is the best thing to do:
1. grooming my SMV
2. work on that technique
?
what will bring me faster and to be happier in the long term, what would you prefer first if you had access to only this knowledge in your 20’s?
Nick
Posted at 07:58 am, 7th December 2017Hey BD, I follow you from S.A. Do you have any experience couching spmebody from South America to make 75K a year from home by creating an online business? I already have acceptable results in my dating life thanks to this blog, but I feel I work too much and I dont have time to improve my game.
Chris Stevenson
Posted at 08:07 am, 7th December 2017This article explained it very succinctly. Men need to take the pressure off themselves in regards to their SP with attracting and having sex with females. In many cases men are starting out in life or at some rebuilding point where they feel that these things are not in place to meet their sexual needs. This creates a stress of unnecessary urgency to achieve certain things beyond what are reasonable goals and always makes them feel inadequate. Society could not have made a better system for controlling male efforts. It is also reinforced in some communities where females are very “conservative” and sell themselves as wanting these things regardless of the fact that many live double lives. Media also adds to the mix. Some men are learning that goals of achievement or nice things must be their own independent of their attractive index. For example, I have one toy and often get teased that it is used to pickup females or some other SP comment; use your imagination. Other than the fact that it costs little to acquire and operate which shocks people, I tell them that I have it because it pleases me. Essentially men need to embrace a message that was introduced to females in the 1990’s, “do it for yourself.” This is what the liberated man, “The Unchained Man” is doing. My health is for me, my development of lifestyle is for me, etc. The greater society finds this hazardous for obvious reasons.
As I rebuild after a major change, I find myself falling into the trap as it must be present to some degree in all of us. The reason for the economic and personal goals should be that they make sense for reliable living. Men have a culture shock when they realize that they can have the females without these things. It probably becomes a mental battle as to whether these economic achievements are even necessary. Now the man has a double conundrum. His purpose as a provider is admittedly lost and realized by him long ago. Now he can meet his needs in a major life area, sex, without having a purpose. This is due to the fact that most work is meaningless and only exists to provide income. How many men can say that what they do elevates society or uses their talents in a noble way? Professions formerly gave a man a sense of being part of a history, however professions and the work that they do are mundane and now disposable. The sex tied to personal, often economic achievement, might be the last psychological defense mechanism that productivity leads to worth. Without it men having sex literally for free can feel empty unless they have achieved a more Zen like connection to the universe. Personally, when I have been so broke that I could not pay attention and having awesome sex with a pleasing female there was a feeling of, “is this all that there is?” Only when a man has a greater mission can he enjoy partaking from the free bounty of the earth and not look for the false gods of some sort of personal, economic or consumerist achievement. Then of course he cannot be controlled.
We can see men who hit this wall, having without mission and then seeking validation in many of the pickup artists who start embracing the whole restore marriage, conservative society, fighting the forces of anti-family, whatever, in the Henry Makows, Rooshes, now Chateau Heartiste, and other player converts. They are seeking worthiness outside of themselves in the inspired movements of others.
The man needs to realize that he is good and deserves the bounty of the world as it is now. Then the need to do things to justify it are no longer his prison.
Anonymous
Posted at 08:45 am, 7th December 2017Accepting the fact that improving these PUA skills improve your success rate how exactly do they do so on top of your SMV? Are these techniques behaviors that create sexual arousal in Women where there was none previously? Do they accelerate the process compared to conventional dating? Do they stop the Women from being bored with you or being turned off?
One of the reasons I ask is because I have seen many articles which argue such as the one I will post below that LMS are the primary factors so I want to understand why PUA techniques trump these exactly or at least how do they improve your success rate?
https://sirtyrionlannister.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/pick-up-artists-game-subculture-evolutionary-analysis/
joelsuf
Posted at 08:57 am, 7th December 2017I’d argue that a lot of men do not know that they are naturals growing up. I was a natural growing up, and I knew how to attract chicks in high school and college, but there were two things stopping me:
First, my father didn’t want me to date non-jews in high school. So that eliminated a lot of the field for me until high school ended.
Second, I had STOOOOOOPID one-itis for a popular chick who would eventually try to get me arrested for harassment (I deserved it; I was saying and doing a lot of stupid things around this chick that I wasn’t doing around others).
In this day and age, as long as you are outcome independent, you have all the SMV you’ll ever need. The rest is up to you and putting in the numbers.
MoChnk
Posted at 09:01 am, 7th December 2017That was right after your separation and during the divorce process. Was your financial life in a crisis and were you completely broke or was that just the very moment you had moved out and before you had gotten any new furniture?
joelsuf
Posted at 09:02 am, 7th December 2017I think BD’s answer is gonna be the same as mine, but you gotta develop outcome independence first by taking chicks off of pedestals. A lot of people don’t know that they are doing this and it messes with their progress. Overvaluing chicks is a major part of SP that holds both sexes back. Also if you haven’t had sex yet and are 25, I would either pay for it just to get the first time thing out of the way, or have sex with a chick that isn’t traditionally attractive this way you aren’t as intimidated.
Alex
Posted at 10:37 am, 7th December 2017In my mind what boosts SMV the most aren’t even things like money, cars or six pack abs, but confidence, non-neediness and outcome independence. This is the stuff that separates the boys from the men. But these things aren’t “skill” or “technique” either. Technique is something you do, but being non-needy is something you are.
When you fake non-neediness as part of a technique you come across as incongruent and women pick up on that. Or it works in the short run, but after a while women still sense the needy little boy behind the facade. And a needy boy with six pack abs and a Ferrari is still a needy boy = low SMV.
bluegreen
Posted at 10:40 am, 7th December 2017Dig the article.
If you’re good at one thing doesn’t mean you’re automatically good at something else.
For example:
1. Being good at making money doesn’t make you good at dating.
2. Just cause you’re a good singer doesn’t mean you’re automatically a good actor.
3. If you speak 3 languages fluently, you’ll probably still need to study to learn calculus.
You can use previous knowledge and experience, but different skill sets still need to be developed. Overlapping skills, experience and talent may exist but not always.
You can use the experience gained from learning one skillset, and then (possibly) apply the method to another skillset.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:07 am, 7th December 2017Well said.
Virgins are a unique and unusual case, and my advice for virgins is completely different than for normal guys. Virgins need to temporarily forget all PUA technique and SMV and just fucking get laid. Read item #20 here.
Yes. I’ve coached guys on that from all over the world. Location doesn’t matter to an online business; all the principles and techniques are the same.
Time to work on your time management then. Chapter 11 in my book.
Well said!
That’s exactly what they do. Pick-up skills “stack” with your SMV to provide a total amount of competence and success with women. They both matter and they both help, a lot.
They existed, but men didn’t know how to do them. Prior to around the 1990’s, what pick-up skills did men know? What open relationship management skills did men know? Or have access to? Little to none. Today, they’re all over the place.
Uh, duh. Of course. For the past many years, I’ve gotten laid within 3 hours of face time with under $24 spent. That’s the entire point.
Dude. You’re asking some very dumb questions.
What the hell is LMS? (And I’m not reading the article; too long.)
PUA techniques don’t trump SMV, they stack with it. They also don’t conflict with biology; the actually embrace female biology. That’s why they (mostly) work.
I think I agree. I knew a few naturals in high school, and they were always baffled as to why I, and other guys they knew, couldn’t easily bang a parade of hot chicks like they could. They were legitimately confused.
“Dude! Just ask her out and fuck her!” was their usual advice, reinforcing the notion that you can’t take dating advice from naturals, since they literally don’t know what they’re doing right.
Both, although there was some time lapse between the two. I describe what happened in great detail in my book. I got divorced, and while dealing with that financial chaos (which took two years), the entire economy crashed and I lost 60% of my income from my primary business almost overnight. I had some bad years in there (financially that is; with women they were great!).
Alex C
Posted at 11:50 am, 7th December 2017@Alex
Exactly! This is the thing with SMV, it’s kinda vague. I was always under the impression that confidence and outcome independence were a part of your SMV, and that it was just game that was a major separate factor.
If confidence & outcome independence are separate from your SMV, then SMV really isn’t a big deal. I know plenty of guys who are very high “SMV”, in both the looks and money department – pilots for example, who have really average, dominant girlfriends/wives.
Shanghai_bobby
Posted at 12:55 pm, 7th December 2017I’m sorry BD but this is absolute horseshit.
Pickup techniques never trump SMV, and to think that a middle aged male can snag plenty of hotties in their 20s, with just PUA techniques is as fake as RSD Luke teaching you how to get matches and be 100lbs overweight on Tinder.
As far as for proof, aside from your forum and blog posts, I’m yet to see concrete proof – saying posting proof is silly and has legal ramification is not a justifiable excuse – I don’t see Will Freeman or GLL getting slammed with legal ramifications, and they post plenty of proof they actually score younger hotter girls.
Like you regularly mention in your articles, there are always exceptions, but exceptions prove the rule.
Having said this, we are yet to see actual proof that a guy dressed in rags, hasn’t showered in weeks, begging for spare change, can get up off his ass (reeking of meths spirits) and go get a hot girl walking down the street – he most likely wouldn’t be able to afford a smart device/phone which rules online dating out, and he still has to get past the hurdles of getting nicer clothes, getting a decent camera for good photos, etc. – maybe he can use a net-cafe to do online dating, but this is far-fetched.
What constitutes as credible proof:
– creep photos with face being blurred out, and you somewhere in the picture
– multiple creep pics without you in it, but something which is identifiable e.g. maybe the same angle you took your other pics, perhaps a small ornament/decoration which appears in the same picture of every creep pic you take
– text exchange screen caps and follow up screen caps of them telling you how good the sex was
– the photo-set you’re using yourself and exactly which “game/pua” techniques you tell guys to use in your book, then letting the guys make a dating profile with those materials to actually test these “techniques” themselves
– creep vids adhering to the criteria mentioned above (this is the most credible source of proof, as this is the hardest thing to fake/Photoshop)
What doesn’t constitute as proof:
– referring to some article written by some WSJ or other non-credible source about homeless people getting laid
– using Tom Leykis as an example – of course he gets laid – his net worth is over $22m, and it doesn’t matter if he spends on women or not – they’re hypergamous by nature and all think their golden vagina is the one that can snag a high SMV male – they all fail in the end
PUA techniques have never worked and never will. If they did, every average Joe will be banging multiple hot young women. 20 years of mainstream evolution cannot change thousands of years of genetic hard-wiring.
Every person selling materials on how to score poon will use a degree of artistic licensing to hype up:
– how young the girls they bang are
– how hot the girls they bang are
– how good their game is
Until credible proof has been produced, claiming game works is about as real as snake oil.
Inb4 hotness is all perspective and it only matters if you find her hot – hotness is based on SMV and the majority perception of something/someone’s worth. Case in point, ~45% of Americans say Trump is not their president, but majority rules, thus Trump is their president whether they say he is or not.
Same can be said if you rate your girl 7+/10. If the majority rate her 5/10, it doesn’t matter what you rate her. She’s a 5/10. This is especially true if you’re teaching guys how to get hot chicks.
Girls like anything in life is a commodity and has a value tag – that’s why only guys like Leo and other high SMV males score top Victoria secret models – I’d like to see any PUA assclown try to score them (only using PUA) and have CREDIBLE PROOF to show.
In an industry dominated by charlatans, the only credible “experts” are the ones with reliable proof, and even then, one has to still be mindful of BS e.g. photoshop
Alex
Posted at 01:12 pm, 7th December 2017@Alex C
I think one has to distinguish between SMV and social status. Also I think SMV is in part relative to your “target audience”. Is the woman looking for a lover or a provider? Your value for her depends on that context. The classic example would be the wife who sleeps with the mailman while hubby is at work.
If you want to attract a provider-hunter then yeah, sure, it helps to be a rich pilot… or even better yet: “Nothing beats an astronaut!” 😉
…but if you want to have fun with multiple women (who maybe already got one of those pilots, who is never at home anyway) then having a high social status isn’t as important for your SMV in the eyes of these women than having confidence & outcome independence.
JudoJohn
Posted at 01:39 pm, 7th December 2017You’re right.
I’m miles ahead of where you were when you got started, although I’m a decade older than you were, at 45. Also, I’ve internalized much of your blog, and if it disappeared I have about 10 of the full web pages saved locally.
I’m sitting on 7 Tinder matches….some with climber girls in their mid 20’s….I know you say the outdoors thing is overplayed in Denver, but it works and damn it, it gives me room to hamster (I am honestly looking for hiking/backpacking/climbing buddies, with benefits). How am I getting Tinder matches with girls half my age? Facebook age is 26, but it’s blocked on Tinder, but my pics are bleedingly current, gray in my hair and all, and some are swiping right…..because my SMV is sufficient. And now it’s about putting in #’s.
Damn it, BD, will you please stop telling me I’m stepping on my own dick?!?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:19 pm, 7th December 2017I never said they did. I said they stack with SMV and that both are important.
I never said that either.
Emotional control and reading comprehension, my friend. You’re an angry guy, and you just wasted a lot of your own time by writing a long, hysterical comment about something I never said and don’t even believe.
Try hard to read what I actually write, not what your pre-exsisting anger and biases think I write.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:25 pm, 7th December 2017It’s not vague. SMV are the external attractive factors that women like, like sixpack abs or a Mercedes. I clearly listed them here. They are things that you can include in a picture of yourself.
Outcome Independence and confidence are the internal attractive factors that you possess, that cannot be included in a picture of yourself (at least not really; you can hint at it of course).
OI and confidence are ridiculously important, but they’re not SMV. That goes more to my point; that there are other factors beyond SMV that are important for attracting women.
That’s a great idea! Though I promise this blog will never disappear (at least before 2024).
It’s always about putting in the #’s.
Stop stepping on your own dick.
zaal g
Posted at 02:38 pm, 7th December 2017Im another 24 year old (kissless) virgin. Had some interest from girls in high school but never knew what to do with it. My indian parents definitely have damaged my psyche.
To give you an example of how toxic my mindset is at the moment, every time I see a decently attractive girl, I lose a part of my soul. Im not even joking with you, a part of me literally dies inside by even looking at a bangable girl.
For many years, Ive tried a lot of self improvement shit ( including a steroids cycle) but I still cant get over the fear of rejection because I just dont think Im good enough ( physically, financially, etc).
At this point its my receding hairline that Im using as an excuse. Until I give that shit a hair transplant, my toxic mindset wont allow me to be confident enough to even normally talk to girls.
WTF DO I DO?
JudoJohn
Posted at 02:53 pm, 7th December 2017Unless you’re a coward like me. Women are perceptive, though, and they know I’m hiding my age for a reason. Only one woman pushed me on it, I stupidly copped to it, and she said “we’re not looking for the same thing” and unmatched…..bullshit, yes we are looking for the same thing.
You got it, boss.
I also have 2 pages from the Good Looking Loser and about another 10 from The Red Pill. I could put together a “best of” the Manosphere together (clearly, it would show my biases) or even restart it from scratch…..~25 pages doesn’t sound like a lot, but we’re both Gen-X’rs….we’d have killed for this information in the early 90’s.
Gil Galad
Posted at 03:05 pm, 7th December 2017Strawman. This isn’t a description of an average person, it’s far worse.
I’m gonna protect myself legally and say that this is a thought experiment. With that out of the way: go see an escort a few times. That’ll decrease some of the anxiety. But you’re still gonna have to make approaches; if you can’t accept to live some moments of dread – with the near guarantee that this’ll all fade away with repetition – , you’ll never fix this. And please stop thinking about your hairline. Jesus.
Shanghai_bobby
Posted at 03:07 pm, 7th December 2017Your answers are evasive BD, and you’ve diverted attention from the main objections raised. You’ve also misconstrued candid feedback and genuine objections as anger, and I suspect it’s to make my argument less credible, as people who seem mad/irrational seem less believable.
It’s those skills that will get you laid, not your fucking car or your six pack abs (though I agree these things can help in certain scenarios).
Any time you have trouble with women, and the first thought that pops into your mind is that you need to make more money, get bigger muscles, or get a better car, immediately slap yourself in the face. Those things will help, but what you really need to do is improve your skills.
This is you stating game trumps SMV. Getting laid is the measurement of success, thus something that doesn’t get you laid is inferior to something that does.
Pick-up and dating techniques work. Anyone who says they don’t is wrong. I am living proof of this.
You are alleged “proof” of this, and “anyone who says they don’t is wrong”, yet you still haven’t posted credible proof that you’re living it.
Maybe you should carefully re-read my comment and respond to the objections? The genuine objections I’ve raised have sound logic, so I won’t blame you if you’re struggling to find suitable responses to them.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 03:17 pm, 7th December 2017Do you use the hide age function? I feel it will hurt the matches a lot because it makes one look really shady. I think better is to set a visible fake age and come clean about it later. How much later depends I guess on what you want.
You always lose some. Random unmatching happens sometimes.
I had my first sex at late 28, before that I only kissed a few girls few times. But in roughly the year and half before the first sex my mind set has changed a lot. Now I am in my late 31 and by now have banged several girls and some of them I have dated for longer, including more than one at a time where they knew and accepted it.
“It’s not about how you look or what you say but how you see the world.” – from Seduction by Robert Greene (author of 48 laws of power, sometimes considered modern day Machiavelli); its also directly related to this confidence and outcome independence. Only thing you have to change is how you think, the rest will follow.
Alex
Posted at 03:22 pm, 7th December 2017@BD
Why shouldn’t SMV have internal factors? One of the items on your list for men’s SMV on that post is “Confidence/Dominance” which for me absolutely makes sense. But it’s an internal factor still.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 03:24 pm, 7th December 2017Who cares about that, if I rate her 9/10 and other guys think shes average then fine, I keep her to myself and have lots of fun with her and they can go after someone else.
Anon
Posted at 03:30 pm, 7th December 2017BD, I think you misunderstood this poster’s question, and he asked whether the techniques generate arousal out of nothing.
My understanding is this:
1 — SMV. You make yourself a healthy man and a high achiever, because you should do it anyway. That chicks dig this is a pleasant bonus.
2 — Pickup. You put yourself into position of interacting with multiple women, where the focus is to get a yes or no decision out of them as quickly as possible. The techniques are primarily aimed at not swaying them towards a no.
3 — Relationship. With those who decided yes, you refrain from attraction-killing actions.
In my mind, it’s like an old lady tending her garden. She cares about it well, because it’s her garden and it makes her feel good, but she also likes the ability to make a little money (1). She sells some vegetables to those who already have an appetite for vegetables, she knows many people come just to talk and not to buy anything, she doesn’t care yet doesn’t let them waste too much of her time (2). And she’s polite and honest with repeat customers, yet doesn’t let them take advantage of her (3).
JudoJohn
Posted at 03:41 pm, 7th December 2017I do. It’s bleedingly obvious that I’m not 26. I think the mismatch between pic and age is just too much.
My main pic, I’m sitting on my couch with a cup of coffee, map in the background…..on “photofeeler” it rated top 20% in all 3 categories with girls under 30 (rated top 10% with girls under 40). You know the angles girls use to hide fat? It’s basically the opposite, I have my left leg kind of folded Indian style, and am kicked back…..it would be impossible to hide belly fat at that angle. My second pic is a belay stance…..I figure, showing a pic of me using protection is a good idea!
I’ve had about 30 matches, outside of bots/whores, and I’ve been lazy…..Go Time’s coming up.
I’m somewhat breaking BD’s rules and being pretty honest in my profile….looking for “the nebulous place between hooking up and adventuring” and “friendship forged on shared adventures and meals is a great result” but to be honest, that’s exactly what I’m looking for. My favorite hiking/climbing/backpacking configuration is with a girl who is hot, can keep up, and I’m actively fucking.
One of the toughest nuts to crack (if only in my own head) is how to communicate “Yeah, you’re hot, guys fall all over you, I think you’re hot and would like to get to know you, I’m dangerous because I climb and do martial arts, but I’m safe because I’ll give you space and understand that you’ll be dating others, perhaps even for marriage, while we’re together but it doesn’t matter to me because I have options” without, you know, saying it out loud.
Brandon
Posted at 03:48 pm, 7th December 2017zaal g
“At this point its my receding hairline that Im using as an excuse. Until I give that shit a hair transplant, my toxic mindset wont allow me to be confident enough to even normally talk to girls.
WTF DO I DO?”
Its not your receding hairline holding you back. Your just trying to rationalize your excuses for not talking to girls. The only way you’ll get over it is taking action.
If it’s too much to try to direct approach a girl why not do an approach anxiety program like GLL. That helped me build my confidence and tamed my fear. Regardless what you do to get over your fear of rejection do something. Otherwise you’ll never get over it and keep giving yourself excuses
AlphaOmega
Posted at 03:57 pm, 7th December 2017Why not then just say on your profile that you are not 26, I’d do that instead in this situation.
One advice for what you can do immediately is to adjust colours on your photos. I put some simple instagram filters on my photos few months back, and the amount of matches I was getting after that went up 4 times. I also added a description which was kind of clever yet provocative and interesting at the same time so could also be because of that, probably a combination. I used to struggle for matches before and since then I could get new dates each week (actual dates).
Yes but over what time period? It makes quite a big difference if that was in one week or several months. I’d say if its in less than a month then its good, because then you should be able to get at least one new date per week.
Why do you have to say so much to her? Like BD says just exchange a few sentences and then pitch a date. I do that it often works even after little chatting. Some girls need more time talking. But anyway I just am very direct and I dont say much. I just say ask her to meet for a drink. Often there is a good point in the conversation to mention it, sometimes I just say it out of nowhere, especially if the conversation kind of dies then why not try. Sometimes they suddenly reply and accept. Though recently I am starting to get lots of girls who happily say yes and give me their number but then change their mind, must be doing something to scare them off. Or maybe its just wrong time of year now. I will see how it is in January.
Dont tell her this
say this instead:
with a bit more words and pitch a meet
This is for much later on
JudoJohn
Posted at 04:07 pm, 7th December 2017Mostly because it would violate Tinder’s terms of service? I think, anyway. Also, I have young and good looking friends from judo, college and climbing, and I think it helps in getting decent matches, I’d hate to get banned.
I wasn’t careful enough in the set up! This is the Frame I’m trying to set up, good Lord I wouldn’t say any of it! NO NO, let’s just grab some coffee or happy hour!!!!! You’re right, if I said any of it, that would be as retarded as Eminem!
Relevant question: right about a month.
I’m open to it……I dunno, I feel this pressure to be a bit extra honest since I’m knocking 20 years off my age. Minor filtering isn’t a bad idea, though.
My last girlfriend is a smokeshow half my age. She has made it very clear how annoyed she is at dudes falling so hard and fast for her. She’s great, but not quite all that….I’m sure other girls have this problem too.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 04:18 pm, 7th December 2017Then you make a new profile again? There are lots of people who do that. I see many under 18 girls who say they are under 18 on their profile for example.
I just ignore this shit. Its funny how girls complain about stuff like that and then later they complain you didnt fall for her completely etc. Women dont know what they want, its our job to guide them.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 04:21 pm, 7th December 2017Its about the colour composition of the whole photo, it makes a huge difference.
JudoJohn
Posted at 04:34 pm, 7th December 2017I hear you. What I need to do is listen to Blackdragon and put in the numbers while stopping stepping on my own dick.
I grapple 9 hours a week, run 7.5 miles per week, do bodyweight fitness 3X’s per week, and climb when I can. Although I’m 45, I’m pretty much a slab of meat these days. I climbed a mountain with a skinny dude 15 years younger than me and smoked him.
Even girls not into outdoors stuff like visiting my apartment. It’s really nice, I have a great kitchen and know how to use it, I live in a tasteful and very masculine space.
That’s why this post bit me hard, my SMV is fine. I’m living the fucking dream. I’m hard on myself, so life is easy. It’s beyond stupid to not be swiping right and messaging immediately until I have at least 1 MLTR & 1 FB, although I never went through my slut phase and there’s no better time than the present…I won’t get another chance.
Shanghai_bobby
Posted at 05:24 pm, 7th December 2017It’s not a strawman argument in this case because apparently (according to BD) even homeless people can get laid with enough game. I don’t know what homeless people in your city look like, but this is what homeless people in my city look (and smell) like.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:22 pm, 7th December 2017You are angry. That’s apparent from your comment, the other comments you left that were spammed by WordPress, and the email you sent me.
Correct. The entire fact you think I said something I didn’t say shows this. When you’re angry, higher brain functions shut down, rendering rational discourse difficult to impossible.
That is not my position, as I stated in the above article multiple times. If you’re going to pull three sentences out of a multi-page article and say that I was saying otherwise, you’re welcome to believe that, but you’re still wrong.
To state one last time, and I’m not going to say it again, I do not think game trumps SMV. What a stupid postion. I think SMV is very important, just not the only important thing.
That’s a standard PUA-hater complaint, and I’ll say to you what I’ve said to them in the past. I can’t and won’t post detailed pics and/or videos of me with women. Just the legal issues alone would be a serious problem, and I don’t have that kind of money and time. That being said, I’ve been posting about my dating life, in great detail, on the public internet since 2009, which is eight years straight. Either you think I’m telling the truth, or you think I’ve been lying about it the entire time.
For someone to lie to that level of volume and detail, and keep all those lies straight for that long, requires some kind of amazing super-genius. This is true even if I’ve only been lying about 50% of it, or even 20% of it. Accusing anyone who has been discussing these topics for this long to be lying about them, be it me, Roosh, Owen, or whomever, means you’re accusing them of James Bond villain genius-level intelligence and organization. If you want to think that’s me, I’m quite flattered, but I don’t possess that level of intelligence or organization.
No, not according to me, according to the news:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmav517MQJc
You might want to actually click my links that back up my points instead of just making things up to object to.
But I’m sure the news is lying about all of this too.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:30 pm, 7th December 20171. Follow my advice under item #20 here.
2. Get some counseling / therapy. Your issues are too deep to be solved with PUA techniques alone.
Ask society, not me. I didn’t come up with SMV. Society did. I think the whole thing is stupid, since it’s mostly based on Obsolete Biological Wiring from a very long time ago. Women in their 20’s earn more than men in their 20’s, plus we have a massive welfare state now. Women don’t need men’s money or protection anymore. Some men may hate that, but those are the facts.
True, but I lean more towards dominance as SMV than confidence, but I admit that’s a grey area.
Got it. Then answer is yes, provided you are at least within the range of physical appearance of a man she would fuck. If you’re ugly as fuck or the opposite of her type, then no techniques will help.
Shanghai_Bobby
Posted at 11:46 pm, 7th December 2017Again BD, weak rebuttals.
I posted a comment and it didn’t come through, perhaps I did something wrong. I tried again to no avail. I then posted a comment with only one sentence (maybe there was a word limit counter)? I then pressed edit to paste my reply into the box, at which point your site told me my reply was spam and that I needed to contact an admin. Again, you’ve misconstrued someone following the instructions on your site to get a post across, as anger – perhaps you’re angry someone is challenging your snake oil? From the get go my reply was what you see here, and it was auto-marked spam.
The above response is a weak rebuttal against someone who has a solid point. Trump used it plenty during his election campaign to deflect topics he could not adequately answer – it seems like this is a standard knee jerk reaction you have for comments you’re unable to adequately address – basic psychology 101.
I’ve seen the link you posted. Again, there is no proof, just stories.
I’m disappointed in this statement BD. You out of all people should know how much the news/media lies…
It doesn’t actually require any genius to lie about things for a prolonged period of time. RSD have been doing it for longer than you have, and I’d hesitate to credit any intelligence to them – when people are desperate with nowhere else to turn, they’ll believe anything, hence the term “snake oil” was coined. Can’t remember who said this quote, but it went something like “keep that up, and you’ll end up believing in your own bs”.
Quoting Google (the key word is unverifiable):
I already preempted your response, to which I responded that GLL and Will Freeman have proof for days, yet I haven’t seen them facing any ramifications. You’re again being evasive.
At the very least, there shouldn’t be any legal ramifications of you posting your photoset (the one you use for OLD), then letting others use those photos to see for themselves. It should work with anyone, as they can execute your “game” via your books, and chicks can’t magically see through a computer screen.
Just Google RSD is full of shit/bullshit, and see what some of their instructor assistants have to say about them – standard over-inflation of lay count, over exaggeration of how hot chicks are, etc…
As I’ve already stated:
Reminds me of the “I know you are, but what am I” phrases I heard when I was 10 years old lol, but you’re a good writer and marketer BD, just like RSD and any other PUA.
In summary BD, you’re exchanging a service for money, thus there is nothing wrong with calling you out on questionable aspects of your service – after all, the most credible service providers are the most transparent ones.
Don’t fret though, you’re not the only person (organisation) who gets defensive when threatened. I do the same with Amway “diamonds” requesting to see their P/Ls, and am met with the same “you’re just a hater” comment, “I’ve been doing this for years”, “Amway has flown me around to many countries to do speeches”, if I’m full of it then all other “diamonds” should be full of it too, etc…
Maybe I should ask Vegan Gains to make a video about this – he’s great at calling people out. Snake oil until verifiable proof to state otherwise 🙂
Shanghai_Bobby
Posted at 11:47 pm, 7th December 2017Oh no BD, hit the spam filter again – gosh your WP is good at filtering out people calling you out 😉
David
Posted at 11:49 pm, 7th December 2017I’m a relatively tall, good looking guy with a good job. Doesn’t mean shit. In fact it means gold diggers expect fancier dates!
Plenty of times I fuck it up.
Last year I was seeing a busty, hot girl who flaked and vanished. Then I started getting threats from this fat, short, cholo dude on Facebook. Turns out it was her boyfriend. She eventually told me the story. So this cute chick, super “feminist”, dumped me for an ugly, short, face tattooed, ex convict fresh out of prison lol. He works at like Home Depot or something.
Another girl I met in a bar the same time was even younger and sexier. We only made out a few times. I took her to one nice dinner, met her mom, then she vanished. Found out she was knocked up by the fugliest dude you’ll ever meet. He works at her gym.
It’s almost like some women prefer a controlling man with some obvious social problems instead of the perfect guy. Maybe it’s their own self esteem issues or some ancient attraction to leadership. I can def improve in that area.
French Newbie
Posted at 11:58 pm, 7th December 2017Since I have my own business and I’m pushing my mission every day in a state of passion and determination (even though I’m very far from the 75K) I have an incredibly stronger success with women than when I was employee.
However, I have never really sought to improve my skills in this area.
But spending each day fulfilling my destiny gave me a much more attractive appearance than when I was employed, a confidence and humor at the top and destroyed all forms of ill-at-ease, shyness and other errors with women.
So, I can not determine if these results are due to SMV, dating skill or both.
Because I did not focus on any of these two factors.
What do you think about that?
AlphaOmega
Posted at 12:03 am, 8th December 2017Or maybe its the fact you take them to dinner dates and go meet their mother whilst those guys go straight to the point.
I stopped doing dinner dates unless Ive been seeing her for a very long time or its some very special situation like meeting someome who lives really far or its one of us cooking but even then that should be a bit later. If you take them on dinner dates and tell them about your business success you are literally asking for gold diggers and for the girl to make you wait.
Ive had dates where we split the bill or I paid for one drink for her and next date she was at my appartment “watching a movie” with me. This includes student girls who were broke and knew I have a good job. Dont waste your time on dinners. This is for a girlfriend not a new date.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:12 am, 8th December 2017WP, not BD. It’s probably happening because your comments are too long. Jack Outside The Box gets his long-ass comments filtered all the time by WP too. Write shorter comments and they’re get through faster.
The rest of your long comment is just general ranting, mostly against other people, except for this:
What specifically is questionable about my services or products? Please be very specific with your answer, or I’m done with this conversation. I’m the only guy in this entire industry (as far as I know) who gives a lifetime money back guarantee to all of my ebooks, with no time limit, so I can’t wait for your answer. “You’re probably lying for eight years straight because you don’t show pics” is not specific; it’s just a general attack, and if that’s your only criticism, you are more than welcome to assume I’m a liar, leave, go read someone else’s content, bash me endlessly on other websites (but not here, since I only respond to specific criticisms, not general attacks), and have fun with your anger. Thanks in advance.
I’ve talked about how women can “feel” when a man is motivated, and how attractive it is to them. It’s not surprising at all that you get more laid now as a self-employed guy than as an employee wage slave, even if you make the same (or less!) actual income. In my main book, I talk about the woman who said, “I’m really attracted to a man with a twinkle in his eye, but I can’t be that twinkle.” When a man is motivated with his goals, it instantly makes him more attractive.
However, as I said above, I don’t consider that SMV. SMV is more about six pack abs or a fancy car than an attractive sense of motivation and drive about a man.
Shanghai_Bobby
Posted at 12:50 am, 8th December 2017You’ve just answered your own question. What? = lack of first hand evidence – surely this is obvious.
Now it’s your turn – be very specific about how I’m angry and ranting, and why it’s an attack. It’s starting to feel more and more like you’re angry – just the other day I heard “go have fun with your … [insert descriptive item here]” on a video about angry feminists, but I guess you’re done with this convo.
Fun while it lasted and no need to go out of my way to bash someone, when the burden of proof is on them. Evasiveness and “accusations” of anger was all the “proof” (or lack thereof) I was looking for.
Thanks in return.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:55 am, 8th December 2017I’m not going to have an argument with you about your feelings (what are you, a woman?). I asked you for a specific criticism on my services, and as I thought, your only answer is that I don’t post pics or whatever. I clearly told you what you can do if that’s your only criticism, so I’m done here. Have a nice day.
observer
Posted at 02:31 am, 8th December 2017I just read the section on Alpha Male 2.0.
The Alpha Male 2.0 kind of just sounds like a stereotypical teenager to me, narcissistically focusing on his own gratification while constantly worrying about where he imagines himself ranking amongst his peers. And hey, I get that high school was a shitty time for a lot of us, which is why we should take comfort in knowing that high school is not a microcosm of society but, rather, a developmental stage that one passes through en route to becoming a full fledged member of society.
I can see why the whole idea of “nobody tells me what to do” might appeal to people who are still in that sort of juvenile mindset but, at least in my experience, most adults don’t actually resent responsibility or commitment. Having responsibilities means people trust you. Commitments mean having people who support you. And doing stuff you don’t want to do sometimes is just part of life as is compromise and cooperation. Relying on others doesn’t make you weak, it just means that you’re a part of society.
Look, the majority of you guys are perfectly fine the way you are. You just need to believe that about yourselves and you’ll have no problem talking to women. But, of course, actually talking to a woman and being genuinely open with her is a hell of a lot scarier (at first) then just doing personal work on yourself instead. I know when I’m scared to actually do something I sometimes create long lists of things that I tell myself I need to do before I can actually get to the task at hand. It’s a wonderful way of avoiding doing something without admitting that it’s really just your fear that’s holding you back.
Anyway, you don’t need to buy books or visit these sites to learn how to talk to women, you just need to quit stalling and actually do it. And, trust me, you’ll be fine. Guys have been doing it for millennia and very rarely do the females bite the heads off the males during these encounters 😛
VKK
Posted at 02:37 am, 8th December 2017With regards to tinder I can tell you it’s nearly useless. I’m probably in the top 1% of good looking men , I’m 6″1, make a decent income and have 14% body fat, look like I’m in my mid 20’s though I’m 31. and I have a serious issue with the low number of women who match with me and after matching response rates are low and I have a friend who is even better looking and he’s never gotten a match on tinder and this is a guy whose dated the best of the best. Also While At a bar or a club on the weekend I can strike up conversations with numerous beautiful and younger women. But that doesn’t mean it’s a walk in the park, as BD said, looks SMV isn’t everything. As a man you still have to keep taking hits and keep moving forward, key is confidence and dominance. Women are illogical, you just have to keep trying large volumes.
Tom
Posted at 02:46 am, 8th December 2017I would say 80-90% of pua success (end game) comes with logistics. Back in the days, I was poor living with family unable to ‘close’ several girls simply because i had no space.
Yes, my skills have been developing. But smv (logistic) is so important. And if you are looking for short term thing because of mgtow, you don’t need relying on smv to take care of her offsprings, you only need to get infields for more exposure.
hey hey
Posted at 03:43 am, 8th December 2017@Shanghai_Bobby: Why don’t you go out yourself and try BDs techniques letter by letter? See the results on your own instead of wasting your time arguing about it? Are you that much of a pussy?
Lower SMV can lose you numbers but all you need is two beautiful chicks. Are you saying you can’t get two chicks? I’m also of the opinion that BD is overrating SMV a bit in the bigger picture. Ultimately women(with high SMV too) don’t give a rats ass if you have money(just money to take care of yourself), don’t give a rats ass if you are a bit bald and you have a little belly, don’t give a rats ass if you have a good car IF your game and your OI are really good. They’ll fuck you, they’ll stay with you and over time they’ll believe that you are far higher value man than the CEO who makes millions. Because you have your shit together and you know where you are headed in life. The CEO does not have his shit together. He only wants to show of himself and how cool he is. And he has no fucking idea how to handle a woman other than throwing her gifts and dinners everyday to keep her. I was banging a woman who her boyfriend was a good looking millionaire and she is headed for a marriage with him. She did not have sexual excitement with him, she was describing to me that she was sitting at night alone everyday playing games on the phone while her boyfriend was sleeping, watching TV or playing poker with friends. But she felt I was very exciting prospect even though I was nowhere near him in terms of money and SMV.
And just for proofs, you simply can’t make this shit up. Imagine someone saying women keep on coming back after seeing them once a week. This has to be working or else this blog wouldn’t have been here after so many years right? I guarantee you all the techniques work like a charm. We are not fucking kids to take selfies and show off just because you want to.
Marty
Posted at 04:20 am, 8th December 2017@Shanghai_Bobby
Boy you really are an angry little critter aren’t you! Who burnt you? RSD didn’t make you a super stud like you thought they would and took your $10 or some oneitis chick crushed your little soul? Haven’t seen this level of hurt for a long time!
For the record I really loved my RSD experiences. Learnt a shit load from them. Sent my results through the roof. About to turn 50 and dating a hot bi 22 yo who I’ve been with for 2 year and I fuck lots of other hot young chicks with. I’d say it was well worth it. BD stuff is the best for relationship management though. That was the final key to the whole puzzle for me.
Onder
Posted at 05:18 am, 8th December 2017Spot on, Game is essentially Sales and Marketing.
Not going out and delivering your value to girls is like stacking your products on a shelf and somehow expect that people will just magically find and buy it.
Having a good product isn’t enough. People need a reason to buy.
You can be the highest value man in the world, but if you’re not selling yourself to people and matching their needs with what you have to offer (this will be different for everyone), no one will care how big your muscles are or what clothes your wearing.
Steve
Posted at 06:43 am, 8th December 2017Most, so all women use many smv techniques. They put in the effort. Pics of thongs, ass crack accidentally hanging out.. she knows. Push up gel padding walking around a size C.. and you discover after you’ve confessed feelings to her she is only size A. So many pics of her in the gym with perfect makeup.. until you learn she was recently divorced or broke up.
Later in life they stop putting in effort. Too bad considering her efforts stop once she has you. She go around all day with a shitty makeup and nail job. Dress homeless in fashion trends from 5 years ago. Put on noticeable 2-3 sizes bigger weight stomach, thighs, arms and come up to you expecting the right answer when she ask, “I look hot don’t I?”
If a guy pulled the male equivalent of the above on her, she’d find a new bf in an instant and dump your sorry ass. But somehow everywhere you look you see most guys staying content and together with her before and after transformations.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:08 am, 8th December 2017I had the same for a very long time, adding instagram filter to my photos and adding a clever yet provocative bio that demonstrates my SMV has changed that to getting actual dates every week.
Then you should be doing night game and day game because if thats true and you can combine that with confidence you should be cleaning with the girls. If not then you are prob not top 1%.
The best part is that they are always suprised that the kind of man that they want often refuses monogamy / cheats. Well no shit Sherlock, if he has to go through all that crap and volumes hes not going to stop.
How can there be an evidence? Even if he did post photos how do you know those were actual girls he picked up and not someone he asked to pose for it? Your reasoning makes no sense. Either you trust or you don’t. But ideally you shouldn’t trust – you should check it for yourself. For me I see its logical and fits together with itself and my own observations of the world.
Johnny Clay
Posted at 09:14 am, 8th December 2017Based on my own experience, I have come to the conclusion that SMV solely determines your ability to attract women, i.e. you can attract women at your own level of SMV or lower. I believe that “Game” is about teaching men confidence, outcome independence, and how to avoid making common mistakes. Game is not a magic pill or special skill set that can offset a lower SMV and enable a man who is a “5” to get a woman who is a “7.”
I’ve tried running game on women with higher SMV and it has NEVER worked. I always found myself trapped in the Friendzone and no amount of “game” ever changed that. Game will not *create* attraction when there was none there initially. On the other hand, I know high-SMV guys who didn’t have to do anything to get attractive women other than just show up. They would act like needy beta males, get oneitis, make all kinds of mistakes, and it didn’t matter — their success was determined by them being high-SMV.
Gaming women with lower SMW is fairly easy, but then there isn’t really any “game” involved; you’re just playing by the rules of the sexual marketplace.
A guy who is already confident, outcome independent, and has at least average social intelligence is better off learning to increase his SMV, as that is the main factor in his success with women.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:48 am, 8th December 2017Here I would argue that you def did something wrong here. This doesnt happen to me anymore because the women who dont want to come to my apartment will also terminate with me because I have clearly demonstrated who I am and why I am there. And in the cases where it was still unclear to her I make it clear to her I dont have time for her unless she reconsiders.
This article and the comments here have convinced me that SMV is much more important than game. I am not sure if this was the intention of the article but that is the conclusion I make now. (not just this comment, but the discussion in general)
But there is a big difference between real SMV and percieved SMV. Would be cool to know what is my actual SMV so I know which girls would be easy and what I have to work on in the future to get specific women.
By the way,BD, will you be accepeting cryptos as payment in the future?
Duke
Posted at 10:41 am, 8th December 2017Not familiar with tinder, but don’t you have to pay a fee to get access to the hot girls or is that another app/dating site?
AlphaOmega
Posted at 11:02 am, 8th December 2017No, you have to pay to remove adverts and to swipe without limit (normal is some max value per day) and to unlock some gimicks like hide your age, change location, super like etc. And pay even more so that it tells you who already liked you (can be useful if you live in a huge city where you never run out of people to swipe or if you are a woman… ironically).
Any app where you have to pay to get access to hotter girls sounds fake. Usually the paid dating stuff is a fraud. Its best when it all works fully free but you pay for some gimicks or to hide adverts etc.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:07 am, 8th December 2017Based on your comment, I’m 90% sure you’re a woman (and if you’re not, god help you), so this is probably going to be a waste of time responding to you, but I will do so this one time.
Completely incorrect. The Alpha 2.0 is outcome independent and doesn’t give a shit what anyone thinks of him. It’s a core part of 2.0.
I had a great time in high school and more or less enjoyed it outside of the academic stuff which I felt was stupid, so nice try.
Neither does the 2.0. Read this.
Men don’t resent commitment, they get burned by it. The real divorce rate is around 70%, the cheating rate is over 60%, and the marriage dissatisfaction rate is also over 60%. Traditional commitment, as you define it, no longer works. Stats here:
https://alphamale20.com/2014/07/13/divorce-statistics/
https://alphamale20.com/2016/08/15/often-people-cheat-real-stats/
https://alphamale20.com/2015/11/16/what-life-long-marriage-really-looks-like/
Yeah, standard female pick-up advice; “You don’t need all these techniques. Just be yourself and say hi.” If that advice actually worked, pick-up and dating books wouldn’t sell by the millions, because beta males everywhere would be getting laid left and right.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 11:15 am, 8th December 2017I agree the rest of that post sounds a lot like a woman.
Anonymous
Posted at 11:23 am, 8th December 2017@Anon
Thank you for this:
Are these techniques behaviors that create sexual arousal in Women where there was none previously?
BD, I think you misunderstood this poster’s question, and he asked whether the techniques generate arousal out of nothing.
As for LMS I meant to use this to stand for Looks, Money, Status as per the moniker which youtuber FACEandLMS (AKA Invisible) https://www.youtube.com/user/FACEandLMS uses but I think that BlackDragon includes these as part of his SMV definition if I am not mistaken.
The above youtuber once brought up an interesting point in one of his videos in which he referred to a show which I never watched called Dating in the Dark where he states that Women would be enamored by a guy whose face they had not seen yet due to his personality and the way he came across I assume and then on the day when she got to see how he actually looks behind the screen she lost interest in spite of the previous non looks interaction according to the FACEandLMS.
Personally I am not completely discounting Game/PUA I just see myself as being somewhat agnostic about it’s ability to hugely and significantly stack above SMV myself but I accept that I could be wrong about this as well.
I would also be curious to hear BlackDragon’s explanation if he has one for the Dating in the Dark example? I assume that he would say that they were not using specific PUA techniques and personality is not exactly Game but I should not put words in anyones’ mouth so he obviously can feel free to set me straight if he has an opinion.
I know that supposedly to my limited understanding in psychology all humans sometimes make false associations as to the reason why they are succeeding at something so I want to try to understand things better to possibly rule out that its really other factors are what makes most of the difference. e.g let’s say a hypothetical example of a guy who thinks that he gets women because he tells funny jokes but its actually because of his good looks or he is just playing the numbers game and approaches women.
I like hearing the stories about guys who have high SMV and lose out to women to guys of lesser SMV like the gangbanger example someone mentioned earlier because I find these to be very interesting and worth examining further even though I think that PUAs feel that they have figured it out that he is just being Alpha/Dominant or whatever due supposedly to primordial subconscious programming indicating to her that in spite of his average looks (genetics) that he is the Alpha Cavemen who will fearless hunt the mammoth and lead the tribe insuring a higher probability of her offspring surviving due to his signaling of his potential access to resources. PUAs reference Evolutionary Psychology for this I believe.
From my point of view looking at the community like Black Dragon very much to his credit indicated there are probably a lot of scammers and frauds like in any industry and I understand that things evolve and change over time like any industry but at first it seems like they were on the Looks Don’t Matter kick and now most of them accept that Looks play a significant part including Black Dragon though some of them still promote the original line. Some of them promote Direct Game, In Direct Game etc and to me their suggestions seem contradictory sometimes as per the approach directly, don’t approach directly etc from guru to guru. And as per the above example someone is partially wrong or right or all wrong but with apparently contradictory statements they can’t all be totally correct. e.g either the Looks Don’t Matter guys are totally correct and the Looks play a big part guys are partially wrong. e.g Will Freedman says Game is necessary in today’s society in order to get Women who are in your league while others say that with Game it can get the average guy to punch above his weight so to speak.
And to respond to BlackDragon’s good question as to explain why these high SMV guys don’t do well with women and guys with lower SMV who have taken his course do well with women I don’t have the answer myself (could be a number of possible reasons e.g more approaches now) but I do not and this definitely could indicate that PUA down properly can have a stacking improvement effect for a guy.
I would like to know BlackDragon’s opinion on the following hypothetical example.
Let’s say if we could peak into infinite alternate realities and we have an average looking guy who is not a naturally which I will name at first JoeCantGetAGirl for explanation purposes.
So lets say JoeCantGetAGirl gets himself in physical shape, (improves SMV in general) improves his fashion appropriately to his market, tailored clothes etc, goes to a therapist and gets his mindset/mental issues (or what PUAs call Inner Game) handled, gets normal social skills, becomes more confident, is outcome independent like BD advises, loses his approach anxiety by exposure therapy over time but still does not have whatever the “Natural” has in terms of suave or smooth verbals or whatever makes up a Natural, gets rid of any possible repealing behavior which he might have e.g awkwardness or shyness, not being present in the interaction, good eye contact , not saying or doing socially inappropriate stuff that turns off the average woman, and when he gets dates he moves the interaction forward with the woman by being assertive when appropriate.
Now lets rename him JoeGotHisStuffHandled.
(By the way I consider the above self improvement stuff not unique to PUA though a lot of PUAs promote this because I think that there are non PUAs avenues to improve this like therapy, going to a fashion stylist, body language improvement etc)
Ok so now here is where the timeline/alternate reality branches out.
If in one timeline JoeGotHisStuffHandled with all of his above improvements continues to approach lets say 100 women that he meets wherever with “normal” methods e.g starting out a conversation with “Are you having a good time here?” “What do you think of this place?” etc. “normal conventional stuff”.
And then in another universe this improved Joe starts approaching with structured PUA Openers or whatever is recommended by BlackDragon or others “Who Lies More?” Men or Women?”, direct openers, indirect openers etc..and doing stuff like Mystery Method, Negging, Cold Reading techniques, Push and Pull attention withdrawal tactics, Storytelling to demonstrate higher value, NLP Subliminal Speed Seduction (I assume that BD does not promote all these specific techniques but just indicating any PUA in general) percentage wise as an average guess what would BlackDragon say that the success rate of this version of Joe I call JoeUsingPUA over the other JoeGotHisStuffHandled? eg 15% to 25% average increased success rate?
I just want BlackDragon’s opinion.
As per my agnosticism I wonder if PUA is just like the medical Placebos which actually work for whatever reason myself and if it is or is not too what extent on average can it improve the average man’s success or even the success of the guy with the high SMV myself.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:24 am, 8th December 2017Be nice. He’s clearly young guy who’s really pissed off at certain PUA folks who are not me and just taking out his anger on me because I’m one of the few content providers who actually respond to comments.
It happens all the time here, PUA haters or women over 33 who are pissed off at Heartiste or RSD or whoever and come here and try to yell at me. It’s not a big deal.
More or less, yes. You could view it as the “product” (your SMV) and the “sales and marketing” (your pick-up skills), although that’s a gross oversimplification, since you have aspects such as OI and confidence in there too.
Correct. As I said in the article, the typical man trying to date the typical woman is hugely out-gunned in terms of dating technique, and it’s been that way for hundreds, if not thousands of years. That’s why it’s so funny when women come here freaking out that we men are just starting to use techniques of our own.
Yes, but to be fair, men do too.
Yep. The stats clearly show this. Women know men are always replaceable. Men don’t know that about women, or at least don’t act on it.
I’m not sure what you mean by that. You mean you tried to fuck women better-looking than you? Wealthier than you? Younger than you? Because I’ve done all three, and with multiple women, even many years ago when I was worse at this stuff than I am now.
Correct, no technique can get you out of friend zone, which is why you should never allow yourself to go there in the first place. The fact you’re allowing yourself to even get into friend zone shows me your technique is off. I never get into friend zone, with any woman, ever. How do you explain that?
Yep. I’ve been wanting to for a year now. It’s yet another project on the big project list. I’ll get around to it eventually. I have to re-do my entire shopping cart system. Badly.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:38 am, 8th December 2017Anonymous, please be careful with posting multiple copies of comments. Thanks.
I don’t really have an opinion on this, nor do I agree with the premise.
Yes. I’ve said before that pick-up has gone through three phases:
Phase One (early PUA 1999-2006): Looks don’t matter AT ALL! You can FUCK ANY GIRL YOU WANT!!!!!
Phase Two (mid PUA 2007-2013): Yeah, looks matter, so you need to optimize them, but so does technique. Work on both.
Phase Three: (manosphere 2013 to now) Looks are ALL THAT MATTER! Technique is bullshit! FUCK! IT’S NOT FAIR!!!!
The truth, as is so often the case, is in the middle, i.e. phase two.
He would get at least slightly increased results if he used some (though not all) pick-up techniques.
John Smith
Posted at 11:39 am, 8th December 2017Yup. I used to follow that advice, and it got me a lot of female friends who complained to me about the assholes they were dating. Not exactly the outcome I was hoping for.
everbodyhatesscott
Posted at 12:07 pm, 8th December 2017If this is all true, get better pictures. Even if you’re good looking, your match rate is going to be under 1/10
Pancake Mouse
Posted at 12:31 pm, 8th December 2017I co-sign this. I forget who said it, but Game is a lateral movement, increasing SMV is a forward movement.
If your SMV is high enough to pull 6s and the occasional 7, Game will help you do this with less effort and pull more of them with less failures.
But increasing your SMV to pull 8s is the only thing that will give you the *potential* to pull 8s.
By the way, the “homeless” guy in your example is attractive, well-dressed, and tall. So, high SMV.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:55 pm, 8th December 2017Uh, no. He’s chubby and stupid looking, not attractive.
That’s easy for any any man to fix/duplicate.
Yes, he’s tall. I can show you ten tall men right now who can’t get laid.
A tall homeless man with a good shirt is high SMV?
Yeeeeeeah okay. I’ll just let that hang…
Anonymous
Posted at 01:33 pm, 8th December 2017From what I remember of the story of the homeless dude who gets laid more than most guys from the article he seems to have low inhibition and approaches women without much fear. At least that is the impression I got from reading the stories. And whatever he is doing with these women while he interacts or has sex with them is keeping them interested so maybe he is whatever they call “a Natural” is. I personally doubt that its due to someone giving him a copy of Neil Strauss “The Game” myself or that he has memorized all the steps in Mystery Method.
joelsuf
Posted at 03:07 pm, 8th December 2017Actually, you can take that advice. The only thing separating a natural from those who need dating coaches etc is outcome independence. I’ve realized this now, 20 years after I hit the age where I decided to try to develop a love life. Whenever my natural buddies said “don’t overvalue these chicks, just ask them out! The worst thing they can say is no, right?” That’s them telling me to be outcome independent.
“Game” (the ability to meet chicks and get them on dates/in bed) is only three things:
-Ability to approach
-Ability to invite
-Ability to flirt/escalate, backing off when you think its necessary (which is very important now cuz chicks are sick of fuckboys getting away with rape and stuff and if you do what fuckboys do then you’ll get a rape charge)
Unless you are mentally disabled (and even if you ARE in some cases, one of my buddies is autistic and he gets with chicks; It is speculated that I have Aspergers and I can still get with chicks, a buddy of mine is in a wheelchair and he gets with chicks at shows he goes to) literally any person on the planet can learn these.
There is only ONE thing that can stop you: Outcome dependence. Sure if you are broke, ugly, and have low self esteem it stacks the deck against you, but it does not mean you can’t still get with chicks. Even if they are traditionally unattractive chicks, they are still chicks.
Outcome independence is the crux. Naturals just happened to have it earlier in life than anyone else while those who had to develop it had to learn.
joelsuf
Posted at 04:28 pm, 8th December 2017I bold’d the one key thing that held you back. You were hoping for an outcome. You overvalued them, thus placed pressure on them, probably wanted them to replace your mom instead of being your gf and thus you got strung along.
I am stoooopid friendly to chicks. Like Mr Rogers friendly. I ask them how their day was. I act like their therapist for a bit. I have fun and am entertained by the things they say. I do exactly what BD says and speak right around 20% of the time and let them run their mouths 80% of the time. They tell me that something is stressing them out and I go “aww” and bring them in for a hug like their chick (or gay) buddies do. I don’t complement their appearance (unless I am making fun) and instead say “I’m really enjoying your company. _____!” It’s sickeningly polite lol.
All these “nice guy” things, yet I enjoy success with chicks and they have sex with me at really quick rates (often right out of the gate on the first date). Hmm, wonder why that is…?
Outcome independence homie. You can be as mean or as nice to chicks as you want, but if you expect or hope from any kind of reaction from them, you’re sunk.
Duke
Posted at 10:53 pm, 8th December 2017I think you’re right about outcome, but you also have to focus on the one of the other words you bolded. Hope. The tough part is eliminating that feeling/desire/belief without getting nihilistic/depressed. Most men (and humans in general) cannot live without hope. Hope that a woman likes you for you, is a good girl etc.
I also agree with putting pressure on women. Most men are not aware of this, and it rarely gets brought up in seduction anymore. I remember it being mentioned via the false time constraint when I read The Game a while back.
Marty
Posted at 11:38 pm, 8th December 2017@joelsuf
You seem to be very hung up no this “Outcome Independence” is the only thing that matters in game! While I agree you’ve got the main things here. There are always subtle skills to be learnt with game. Like any skill. It would be like saying just serve really hard and don’t hit the net when you play tennis and you’ll kill it. You’ll be winning majors in no time. Not quite!
When I was out doing night game a lot I was a 47yo approaching lots of girls in their 20’s. It was tough going regardless of OI and the other things you mention. Most of the PUA guys I was getting my stuff off at the time were in their 20’s or early 3o’s. Then I watched a video by a guy who was in his 40’s. He said “If you are more than 20 years older than the girl you are approaching you can’t go direct. You MUST go indirect.” So I tried it. And boom….my results went through the roof. Started pulling girls in their early 20’s so much easier and it lead to me pulling my current OLTR who was 19 at the time.
Just one subtle change had a massive impact on my results. I didn’t change a single other thing. I had already worked on lots of areas of my SMV. Look, clothes, style, approach skills, push/pull, push through etc etc etc. They all help. As does experience and practice. But there are a lot of interesting tweaks to game. Just as BD has shown with some of his stuff. Do the wrong thing and you fail. Do the right thing and results go way up.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 05:08 am, 9th December 2017can you say how exactly you went indirect in this context? I cannot imagine what that means in night game.
Jack Outside the Box
Posted at 06:06 am, 9th December 2017Correct! That’s why, if you’re smart, you hide your wealth, or even pretend you’re poor. When I did online dating, I’d say under “occupation,” “janitor’s assistant.” Sometimes, I’d tell the girl that I’m the guy in the big chicken costume handing out coupons outside KFC, saying “buck, buck, a buck off your next bucket.” After sleeping together for several months without incident, she’d gradually discover I’m an attorney.
Well, if you show off your wealth, what do you expect?
Yup. Many women are very attracted to alpha 1.0s, including criminals on death row. In the jungle, they would keep their women extremely safe and would be super competent. Most women prefer a dictatorship to democracy, as long as they can sleep with the dictator. The feminine imperative is safety. The masculine imperative is freedom.
This is insane! What the fuck is wrong with you? You never even had sex and you’re taking her to “nice dinners” AND meeting her fucking mom? This is beta 101. Did you also offer to pay for her college tuition? LOL! Dude seriously, you’re making all of us puke!
Not surprising. She wants sex from alphas and nice dinners from betas!
Holy shit! Really? You don’t say! They’ll choose the jerk over the rich nice guy who thinks he’s the perfect guy? Wow! Amazing knowledge! We must tell other men!
You sound like a virgin in a whore house. How long have you been in this community?
Are you the same guy who expressed interest in moving to South America because “family values?” LOL! Really dude? Really?
Jack Outside the Box
Posted at 06:12 am, 9th December 2017Hey David, you desperately need to watch this and internalize it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBhz1cK_f9A
joelsuf
Posted at 08:50 am, 9th December 2017Its not the only thing, but it is by far the most important. That and SMV. You can do all the cool techniques you want, if you do not have SMV and OI behind them they will not make you as successful as someone with no techniques and nothing but SMV and OI.
Spot on with the feminine imperative. I would argue that the feminine imperative preaches safety for chicks and no one else, but that’s only because they are collectivist by nature and that’s just how collectivists operate. I would argue that the masculine imperative is dominance although because of the advent of the Alpha 2, that is changing.
Steve
Posted at 09:14 am, 9th December 2017David she wanted muscle juice head not you. You don’t know what she wants thats why you fail. If you knew what she wanted you would of gotten her and not him. You come off as a studious guy who can recite every chemistry textbooks, biology, geometry.
A stark contrast to most guys, most girls knows what guys want. That’s why every single pic and profile of her online is from 5-7 yrs back. 2017? More likely 2012. Ever notice she never updates age, dates, old pics. You wanna know something else that’s gonna break your heart, every girl has a plan B. She ALWAYS has a plan B. Before you met her, during dating her and after break up. Yet guys are stupid cutting off contract with everyone in his life for her. She isn’t seeing only you, she is comparing you to her plan B to see how you measure up constantly. Guys be smarter have your own plan Bs in place.
If she did the equivalent of what you were doing.. At first meeting she told you she was 5-7 years older than what you accept, she told you had another man she saw every week but she was always looking to upgrade. You would of ran off and not even wasted blog posts complaining about her.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:27 am, 9th December 2017But it won’t work unless you’re already a natural, which means you wouldn’t need the advice to begin with.
Incorrect. It is the most important thing, but it’s not all you need. And, you can’t just tell a guy “go be outcome independent!”
AlphaOmega
Posted at 01:34 pm, 9th December 2017Its so important also for many other things, yet its not so simple. Systematic training is what is necessary here I would say. Meditation and Buddhist philosophy – nature of mind and emptiness of all phenomena in particular can get you a long way.
joelsuf
Posted at 09:07 pm, 9th December 2017Sure you can, BD. If you explain why it is so bad to be outcome dependent enough times, it is definitely possible. It depends on the company you keep, which most dating coaches kind of gloss over.
If something is repeated to a person enough times, they will believe it even if it is totally untrue and/or hurtful. Hence why we see so many betas and so much outcome dependence in the first place; it is very much all around us. It is also why people have low self esteem and stuff; if they are told by everyone around them that they are worthless or that they aren’t good enough, they will think that way as default because that is literally all they know.
JOTB mentioned it earlier, but Tomassi’s “Feminine Imperative” operates the same way: Modern Women’s Movements and progressives keep sending a message that any and all heterosexual males are evil rapists (nowadays they tend to target needy betas, since Alpha 1s are going to be phased out shortly) and that women and LGBTs should be able to get away with whatever they want. They send this message to the public across many, many platforms. Its classic SP, but getting someone to be outcome independent follows the same process.
If Alpha 2 philosophies and qualities like outcome independence was around someone and preached all the time to them, they wouldn’t even need to learn anything physically to be outcome independent. It would just simply become part of them.
This happened to me about 6 years ago when I was really struggling with the opposite sex. I began watching RSD stuff, (which was still good at the time), hanging out with people who were outcome independent, and within a few months I began developing outcome independence myself. I didn’t even know I was becoming more outcome independent during this process.
Guess what all of these people I was hanging around were telling me: “All you have to do is be outcome independent!” Every time I asked them about chicks.
joelsuf
Posted at 09:11 pm, 9th December 2017I wasn’t arguing that it was all a man needs, I was arguing that it was the one thing that separates naturals from AFCs, all other things being equal.
joelsuf
Posted at 09:29 pm, 9th December 2017And now, my turn to take on David. I will prove what I argued before, that you indeed can just tell someone “go be outcome independent” (or in this case, attaching all of the bad qualities to outcome dependence) Watch very closely at the words I am using.
Because you are outcome dependent.
And this makes you made because you are outcome dependent.
Because you are outcome dependent.
And you’re jealous of him. Because you are outcome dependent.
And you’re jealous of him. Because you are outcome dependent.
A “perfect guy” that can’t get any…because you are outcome dependent.
If he was exposed to this kind of rhetoric on a daily basis (that outcome dependent = BAD), would he still be outcome dependent in a few months, or even weeks? I highly doubt it.
So yeah, you can just tell someone “go be outcome independent (or “you suck with chicks because you are outcome dependent” in this case). If they hear it enough times, they’ll BE it.
Ex-Buddhist
Posted at 11:53 pm, 9th December 2017Hmm.. interesting how you could expanding it to become like that.
I don’t wanna debate here…
But also didn’t know really if BD had some article somewhere about this OI thing, or if BD had clearly deconstruct the OI concept to the very basic level.
For me, OI is directly correlated toward self-esteem, it’s internal thing; hence the name is OUTcome INDEPENDENT(‘In’ here actually a Latin phrase mean ‘without’). Because it must be dependant to and ONLY to the INTERNAL, to the inner self.
To have an OI you must had a solid frame at the core level that couldn’t easily be shacken. It translate to whatever happens out there it’s gonna be okay internally, anything from out circumstances can’t never have any effects to this military-grade level of internal-state, and your believe in the capabilities to always thrive and navigate thoroughly.
It’s OK, it’s all right, it doesn’t matter anyway, and you rather choose to be happy.
Mike
Posted at 02:35 am, 10th December 2017The problem with this SMV vs Game debate is that it doesn’t take into account the different way men and women think and perceive:
I read people saying that this particular guy is high in SMV because he is/has/does
– tall
– good-looking (whatever that is)
– fit
– good job
– dress well
– etc…
That is essentially looking at a whole package and cutting it into piecing, assessing them individually and ticking off boxes – i.e. we analyze the guy and focus on details.
Women look at the whole picture and the feeling they get from that. I don’t think they analyze the guy (is he tall? is he fit? what’s his job?) . If they get ‘the feeling’ it’s on or not. When they start asking questions and evaluating, that’s either politeness or because they are sitting on the fence.
You can use game to brign women off the fence. It’s like selling a product to an indecisive buyer. They don’t want the product at all costs. But they don’t want to walk away either. So you get into their mind and nudge them to buy.
Marty
Posted at 02:46 am, 10th December 2017Doesn’t sound like you have done much game work at all if you don’t know the difference between “direct” and “indirect” approach. I would suggest you do a lot more learning about game and PUA in general in that case.
But basically “direct” would be to walk up to a hot young girl and go. Hey you are quite cute! I need to get to know you more! What’s your name? “Indirect” would be to walk up to a hot young girl and go hey this band is amazing do you know who they are? Yes, they are x. We come here all the time because we love them whatever…bla bla. Or No I have not idea. Doesn’t matter her response. Oh ok cool. Wow you have an interesting vibe about you. What’s your name? I’m x. Push through…. game 1,2,3,4….whatever works for you…..2 hours later you a banging the fuck out of her. 😛
Direct shows straight off the mark you have approached her because you like her and are hitting on her. Which is very alpha and good if you are younger and someone she expects to hit on her. Someone she wants to hit on her. Indirect allows you a few seconds or minutes to interact with her in a non-confronting way where she just thinks you are some random older guy asking a question. Then all of a sudden you are hitting on her and escalating in an alpha way. Her initial social programming guard of old creepy guy hitting on me is not there and if she does like you she will probably go with it better and you have a chance.
Marty
Posted at 02:58 am, 10th December 2017@mike
What you said is so right. For example if a women wants a certain height and you are too short you are fucked. But after that. If your not too short. It’s game on and if you know how to make her tingle a little bit you are in. 🙂 It’s all about the feeling. The really good guys can read it and know what and how to make them feel it! Game is about learning what makes that work which is a lot of times not what we are told or think it is.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 04:59 am, 10th December 2017Yes excellent analogy, if there is some product thats totally irrelevant to me and I am completely uninterested in there is no amount of marketing / sales skills that will get me to buy it. But on the other hand if I go to a video games store because I am clearly into games and start looking at action games in PS4 section a good salesman has a good chance to get me to buy not one but several of those games even though I was planning just to look (this would actually not work in my case at all, but its an example that is relatable).
Ah ok, now I get it, and I guess I have done both in the past. In a party with dancing environment I mostly go very direct, and in other settings I break the ice first and if I see shes comfortable with me I ask her out. But the part I didn’t get was in your example you were talking about clubbing – how do you do indirect in that environment? Not exactly a place for conversations or where you even expect you can have a conversation, but then again I always see some people try that. Not my thing though, when I want that approach I go somewhere else.
OnAMission
Posted at 05:15 am, 10th December 2017You can tell someone to have OI but if they don’t believe it then its useless. Especially when a Hotter Than The Others comes along.
I believe OI is simply all about having Options. If you have 15 concrete Options of going on a date with 30 tinder matches, you will naturally be more OI with all 30 – no need to fake it. That will show externally.
Therefore; Put in the numbers>Gives you Options>Gives you OI
AlphaOmega
Posted at 08:08 am, 10th December 2017I still struggle with two things. 1) if shes really the kind of girl I dream about but normally dont even meet; 2) sometimes it happens that all options fail or current girls stop talking to me, then I suddenly become more outcome dependent
Still gotta master that art of not giving a fuck. Not that easy!
Gil Galad
Posted at 03:02 pm, 10th December 2017I think older women, or women in husband hunting mode, might fit with the “checking in you out like you’re a list of items” more or more often. Ideally I think the goal should be to exude a vibe that is so good at “simulating” the general guy-has-it-all-together appearance and demeanor that they get attracted to you based on how that vibe makes them feel, regardless of what they find out later about how you might (possibly) have almost nothing on their “list” of requirements. As always, what’s nonverbal and implied matters more than what’s verbal and explicit.
Lovergirl
Posted at 05:31 pm, 10th December 2017There are a lot of things that take the place of smv, but when a guy is NOT your type or what you typically would like then SMV can help a lot. A lot of women have types they like that are not the norm, like women who think nerdy guys are great or whatever. So I would say either be her type, have massive confidence and OI, or have high smv. All three and of course you are in. 2/3 and you are very likely to get in but even having just one of the above CAN get you in, in the right circumstances.
Like today I was at a college basketball game doing some marketing work and I started talking to this guy. He had no interest in our product but he was clearly interested in me, lol. He asked for my business card and he later texted and Facebook friend requested me. He’s totally not my type- he’s a 50-something white guy but he’s in great shape and nice looking. He also clearly has a lot of money, because he owns his own custom home building company. The girl that was with me was like I know he’s not your type. I said I know but he’s cute and she’s like are you kidding me- he’s hot and I bet you anything he’s going to contact you later (which he did). Add that there are pictures of him out boating/jet skiing with some of the big deal players and of course we are all like who is this guy and it makes him more attractive.
SMV is just one tool, not the only one.
Leon
Posted at 11:19 pm, 10th December 2017Very well said @Lovegirl, I see BD bashes you all the time but you really should chip in and add more of your opinions here.
[quote]In February of 2007, I started off as a badly dressed, 35-year-old, overweight, balding, divorced, 10-years-out-of-pratice-with-women, hadn’t-had-sex-in-six-months, very in debt, beta male dad who lived in a pretty much empty apartment with no bed, just a mattress on the floor in the corner.[/quote]
@BD: I’m very curious about how you still had all the sky-high confidence in that setting. Did you have to fake it for awhile? It’s easy to have solid confidence when you believe in your SMV and your skillset, but when you have none, there’s no other option other than faking it, am I right? How did you do it?
I still struggle with two things. 1) if shes really the kind of girl I dream about but normally don’t even meet; 2) sometimes it happens that all options fail or current girls stop talking to me, then I suddenly become more outcome dependent
You forget 1 important thing: if you always in action and keep putting in the number, then even if all of your options evaporate right now, you always can create tons of it tomorrow. That’s why BD emphasizes the ability to have sex with 2 new attractive girls in 4 weeks and recover current income in 6 months in case of a depression. You have to know that you can do it QUICKLY ENOUGH, to ensure your OI is always rock-solid and unaffected no matter what.
I will prove what I argued before, that you indeed can just tell someone “go be outcome independent”
@Joesulf You can but if he doesn’t see good results for awhile then he will conclude that the advice is bullshit/SP and seek other ones. Also if you don’t develop a core OI principle for yourself (which is exactly what BD is trying to help through his OI-related posts) then every once in a while when A Girl Not Like The Rest appears, all bet will be off.
Leon
Posted at 11:23 pm, 10th December 2017Very well said @Lovegirl, I see BD bashes you all the time but you really should chip in and add more of your opinions here.
@BD: I’m very curious about how you still had all the sky-high confidence in that setting. Did you have to fake it for awhile? It’s easy to have solid confidence when you believe in your SMV and your skillset, but when you have none, there’s no other option other than faking it, am I right? How did you do it?
You forget 1 important thing: if you always in action and keep putting in the number, then even if all of your options evaporate right now, you always can create tons of it tomorrow. That’s why BD emphasizes the ability to have sex with 2 new attractive girls in 4 weeks and recover current income in 6 months in case of a depression. You have to know that you can do it QUICKLY ENOUGH, to ensure your OI is always rock-solid and unaffected no matter what.
@Joesuf: You can but if he doesn’t see good results for awhile then he will conclude that the advice is bullshit/SP and seek other ones. Also if you don’t develop a core OI principle for yourself (which is exactly what BD is trying to help through his OI-related posts) then every once in a while when A Girl Not Like The Rest appears, all bet will be off.
Pancake Mouse
Posted at 11:46 pm, 10th December 2017Attractiveness is not for us as males to decide, unfortunately. If a man gets good results with women despite other SMV detractors, he is physically attractive.
If I took photos of this guy in the same poses I use for my Tinder profile, he’d have double the matches I do.
He is high SMV because of his looks, which are the most important part of SMV for the target market he’s going after (seems to be women <28 from the video).
Callahan
Posted at 09:07 am, 11th December 2017What buffles me is how some celebrities announce that they have slept with hundreds, or even thousands, of women. Yes their SMV is through the roof, but such a claim is not nearly realistic, since they are busy with rehearsals, photo shootings, interviews etc. There is no doubt that LOTS of women would die to have sex with them, but there is no way they would have so much time, especially if they are in a relationship already. So if they lie about their lay count, why would they do that?
AlphaOmega
Posted at 10:37 am, 11th December 2017Seriously? Need to ask that question? Why do men lie about all kinds of accomplishments or make it seem bigger (pun intended)? Just because you are successful and have followers doesn’t mean you don’t need an ego boost or don’t have a need to brag. In fact because as you say they are so busy they are often quite lonely and sometimes this makes them feel better. Or maybe one celebrity brags (hundreds!) and the other feels hes missing out because hes so busy but likes to maintain public image and keep up with the peers (thoudands!!!).
Caleb Jones
Posted at 01:01 pm, 11th December 2017You’re absolutely right. Some guy says that his SMV is 5 so he can’t fuck a girl with an SMV of 7. But wait, SMV for women is factored very differently than it is for men, so how exactly are you coming up with this two point difference? Do you mean she’s better looking than you? Richer than you? Taller than you? What exactly? And so on. You’ve got to be very specific about your perceived difference between her SMV and yours, because her SMV is determined very differently than yours.
It only matters if the difference is extreme. If you’re a typical, everyday guy and you’re looking to bang Scarlett Johansson, and you’re complaining that your SMV isn’t as high as hers and that pick-up techniques won’t work, well fuck, of course that’s true you dumbass. But are you really going around trying to fuck super hot, multimillionaire, world-famous, A-list celebrities and no one else? I doubt it. (And even if you are, you’re probably already in that wealthy, famous zone already, thus narrowing the SMV gap.)
I think most guys bitching about SMV are complaining that they’re not good looking, therefore they can’t fuck hot girls. The problem is that’s obviously and demonstrably untrue.
I have never once bashed Lovergirl. Disagreeing with someone’s points or pointing out that person’s biases is not bashing.
I did not have sky-high confidence at that time. On a scale from 1 to 10 it was about 7 or 8. Read this. Later it got to a 10, but that was several years later.
Some of it, yes. I talk about in my books about how I channeled certain celebrities.
Right.
The Unchained Man, chapter 15.
Your argument makes no sense then, since you’re a male and you’re saying he’s attractive and I, another male, am wrong for saying he isn’t.
Then in all seriousness, you must be extremely ugly. I’m not saying that as a personal attack; if you’re saying that chubby, stupid-looking homeless guy would get double the amount of Tinder matches as you, you must have severe problems with your appearance. That, or you’re not being 100% honest here about how attractive you think he is (which, by your own argument, you can’t determine anyway, since you’re a man).
Why? That’s what guys lie/brag about.
I have purposely never disclosed my number, and never will, because I don’t want to spend the time dealing with the irrational bullshit and blowback from the nitpickers and haters, which is typical when other public figures in this space deal with when they disclose those figures. But my irrational ego would love to tell you! Cuz I’m a guy. It’s biological.
Leon
Posted at 11:35 pm, 11th December 2017One of the best chapters in your book. I should really re-read again.
OnAMission
Posted at 01:22 am, 12th December 2017I look at it this way:
SMV=Product
Game= Marketing
So you can have a great product but shit marketing.
Of course you want to increase your product quality but don’t rely just on that.
Get great at marketing too
I think the mark of a good PUA are those that have an ok product but are top salesmen
zaker
Posted at 09:47 am, 12th December 2017Wow, I was looking to explain this to my friends who don’t believe in having game and are all about “just be yourself yo”. Thanks
Pancake Mouse
Posted at 03:36 pm, 17th December 2017I’m pretty ugly. I wouldn’t say extremely ugly. I’m short, have a shaved head, and have an ugly face, but a great physique. I have a much more polarizing look than our homeless friend here, which means I get much less matches than he would (but I, on occasion, can still bang a 7/10 girl in the US who not put off by my look).
And it is possible for men to know their own attractiveness, but only with female feedback. Tinder happens to be the rawest, most efficient form to get that feedback. Hence why I know I have low facial attractiveness (uploading only a photo of my face gets me so few matches I might as well not try), but high body attractiveness (uploading a photo of my physique with my head cut off gets me matches with incredibly hot girls).
Gil Galad
Posted at 05:56 pm, 17th December 2017@Pancake Mouse: maybe avoid using purely facial pics; stick to ones where you’re either suited up (being well-dressed tends to greately improve women’s reaction to someone’s picture from what I’ve seen) or shirtless, if you have a great physique. Also don’t be too quick to conclude that your face is ugly or very ugly to women; sometimes all it takes is better pics, better angle, etc. And worst case scenario, facial surgery (or non-surgical facial aesthetics) is an option if you have some money other than your long term savings; those things are getting better and (relatively) cheaper. If Kryptokate reads this she might chime in, I remember her sharing a pretty convincing link about this the other day.
Anon
Posted at 09:56 am, 18th December 2017Pancake Mouse: then it’s likely BD’s advice at https://alphamale20.com/2014/07/24/10-steps-on-how-to-create-ultimate-online-dating-photo/ is for you. Note, for example, how his own face is not at all prominent at http://calebjonesblog.com/about/.
Pancake Mouse
Posted at 02:28 am, 19th December 2017That’s exactly what I do. Lead with a shirtless photo with lighting that overemphasizes my muscularity, and then second photo is a suited up candid shot with a DSLR. I do alright with those.
My point about putting up a straight facial photo was not to illustrate that I actually do this, but rather to note that I have done a multitude of experiments and facial attractiveness is the number one thing, by far, for apps like Tinder, and to a greater extent, for modern dating in general.
So back to our friend Joe the “homeless” guy. If you don’t think he’s above average attractive, you need to have your eyes checked. Look at this screencap I took from the video: https://i.imgur.com/Kd5nD9F.png. Slayer eyes, low social inhibition, decent haircut, well-groomed beard, above average style. That’s all you need.
johhnybegood
Posted at 08:20 am, 19th December 2017This makes sense and I agree with many posters above, SMV = product, “game” = marketing/ sales. A combination is obviously necessary, one can make up somewhat for shortcomings in the other.
That said, the “game” aspect is usually a lot harder to pin down than SMV — which is usually looks, body, fashion, social status, friends, wealth, career, hobbies, archetype, power, fame, etc.
By which I mean, there is a lot more abstraction, and disagreement, when it comes to “game” – hence the litany of PUA products and forums out there.
Even though some men won’t believe it, woman have “game” as well. For sure. Men believe that their attraction to women is mostly looks-based, and it definitely is more looks-based than woman’s attraction to men … but some woman definitely have some game as well and can date out of their league, it’s just much more rare.
That said — BD, your game is mostly online, is it not?
I’d say the main hurdle in online game (at least for the Tinder-based apps, not necessarily OkCupid messaging apps) … is getting those initial matches. That’s heavily SMV based. Even women barely read profiles, if ever, unless they match you first. Which is massively looks/ photo/ style / lifestyle front-loaded. And cockiness/ confidence doesn’t carry much weight behind a screen, versus in person.
I’ve read a lot of your books and several other pickup books as well. I’d say, even years later, maybe I internalized a lot of the logic, but it’s still hard to pin down the main tenets of game.
To me, the gist of game comes down to a few aspects:
1. Actual social freedom and effort and persistence in bedding women. You’d be surprised how much this factor is overlooked. Besides auto-swiping on Tinder, I mean.
2. Being the archetypal alpha male. Dominant, cocky, rugged, self-reliant, socially savvy, etc etc. The exact qualities of the alpha male that actually get women wet are widely debated online, but there is some truth buried in there somewhere. I still struggle living this, given how often society/ school/ workplace try to beat down alpha behavior and demonize male sexuality.
3. Emotional manipulation, although not in a negative way. Being able to incite emotions, be in tune with them. Brazen cockiness, teasing, flirting, bedroom eyes, push-pull, role reversal … there are many psychological tricks (just like in sales) that somehow get a woman chasing you, or wet for you. Again, these are very abstract and sometimes difficult to pin down, hence the endless debates. Asserting and maintaining a frame that makes you appear much more attractive and exclusive to bed than you otherwise objectively are.
4. Practical logistics and flow. You know how to set up a date, make it easy to accept. Easy to get to. Make conversation easy. Touching natural. Escalation seem natural. Make it seem like nothing to go back to your place. Easily escalate to sex. Logistics and flow. Conversely, don’t put out landmines like your positions on politics, God, feminism, you like ‘exotic chicks’ and other derailing bullshit.
I don’t consider myself an expert, I mostly wrote this out for my own understanding. I’m sure there are different ways to conceive of game, but that’s my current mental model.
Marty
Posted at 02:32 pm, 19th December 2017Awesome summary johhnybegood. To me game is way more complicated than just saying its like marketing/sales. It covers everything from pickup to relationship management to business and even how you deal with family and male friends etc. How good you are at game will have a huge impact on your SMV and even where you choose the right things to work on in life to increase your SMV. I think when a lot of people talk about game they are actually referring to pickup which is only a small (though very important) part of it.
Betlisi
Posted at 09:23 am, 24th December 2017Hi!
Im a female that listened to Tom Leykis for many years, from the beginning of his career on radio to the end. This blog reminds me of his show. I’m interested in a Russian man and was googling information about how their women behave so I could have some info/game and I read your article about “why you stopped dating Russian women”. Obviously, Im not Russian. Anyway, everything you guys talk about is very interesting. I’ve always liked to learn how men think.
Betlisi
Posted at 09:41 am, 24th December 2017Hi!
Im a female that listened to Tom Leykis for many years, from the beginning of his career on radio to the end. This blog reminds me of his show. I’m interested in a Russian man and was googling information about how their women behave so I could have some info/game and I read your article about “why you stopped dating Russian women”. Obviously, Im not Russian. Anyway, everything you guys talk about is very interesting. I’ve always liked to learn how men think.
Anon
Posted at 06:02 pm, 24th December 2017Welcome to the club, Betlisi!
Well, not many men follow BD’s line of reasoning. But still we men are rather straightforward and rational-thinking typically.
As for gaming a man, a Russian (half-)joke suggests all you have to do is to cook borshch, give a blowjob and ask at what time to come the next day : )
Betlisi
Posted at 06:22 pm, 26th December 2017Anon,
Thanks for the advice, that’s absolutely right. He brags about borshch incessantly and has the biggest ego, so Im moving on. It’s funny because I read about all the different nationalities of women that BD talks about and for me it’s all the different nationalities of men that I have experinece with. Diversity is fun, exciting and educational.
Anton
Posted at 11:05 am, 2nd January 2018Hey Caleb,
Out of curiosity, do you have plans for providing pictures / documentation of your past successes with girls after you become better known as a public figure? I think the other guy was a bit hamfisted in how he asked for evidence, but I can understand the underlying concern.
This is the only thing I’ve really wanted you to provide over any other improvement of your website as a long-time reader of yours.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:31 am, 2nd January 2018The only evidence that would be accepted would be pornographic video of me actually having sex with all of these women. If I provided literally anything else (copies of old spreadsheets, pictures of me with girls, screenshots of texts and online dating conversations, etc, all of which I have), I would spend the next 10 years fighting off attacks from both haters and nitpickers accusing me of making up the numbers, or hiring models or hookers for pictures, photoshopping the screenshots, etc, and you don’t believe that, go to the latest PUA hater site (I’m not going to state the name because I don’t want to give them the traffic) and see how these guys react when a guy like me does provide evidence. They go apeshit just like that young angry guy above (he is typical of the type of guy I’m talking about). I just don’t have that kind of time to dick around with the drama and attacks that would result. Not to mention the legal issues involved with me showing pics and/or private conversations of women from my past.
My younger woman ebook includes several long transcripts of conversations I’ve had with many of the younger women before I slept with them, but again, anyone could say I was just making all of those up (which they would).
Chavel
Posted at 04:19 pm, 8th February 2018BD, Thanks for refocusing us…I too am prone to focusing on SMV.
One thing I can’t lose is my efforts to make money. Through money all things are possible under my belief system.
Chicks are the least of my concern as it relates to money. I’ve actually gone on seekingarrangements.com, pulled chicks, fucked them, and in the end paid amongst all three that I fucked, about $26.
So it ain’t so much I’m hung up on money to pull chicks it’s I’m hung up on money for the sake of success. My belief in business is your success should be measured and the measuring stick is khash….
So whether I pull or don’t pull I do focus on biz and money a lot. And I never get caught up in, “well if I had a roll of cash, that chick would get with me.”
The other things, weak ass apartment, ugly, okay car (truck), I got all that in spades but I still pull.
Thanks Again for Refocusing Us,
Chavel
Robbie
Posted at 09:53 am, 15th February 2018@Blackdragon I believe Shanghai_bobby is mad because he actually desperately wants to believe that game can overcome smv. The reason he wants you to post pictures is so that he can see evidence that an overweight balding, older man can actually attract young super hotties. Part of me can relate, I would love to see proof that I would actually find the girls you date to be attractive, and that you haven’t deluded yourself into allowing yourself to be attracted to girls that are by most men’s standards objectively average. I’m not saying that you’re lying but there are times that I find it hard to believe, mostly because the hotties that I’ve dated, being a 27 year old good looking guy with a ripped physique wouldn’t even go on a first date with an older overweight man, let alone sleep with him. But maybe that’s just a specific niche of girls, I don’t know. I understand you can’t post pictures and never will, so I just have to have faith, and your system certainly does work for me, I still doubt how well it would work for me if I didn’t look the way I do. At least with the girls that I find hot, who usually care about how a guy looks.. Which seems to be pretty common in Australia.