28 Dec How to Assess Whether or Not to Move in with a Woman
I seem to have a disagreement with many of my fellow libertarians. Let’s see if we can figure this out together.
I believe in intellectual property. This means that if you create something, like write a book, create a piece of art (a panting or a movie), write a piece of software, invent something new, or whatever, that item is a result of your labor. Since I follow Natural Law and the Non-Aggression Principle, I believe that your labor is 100% yours and no one else’s. This means that the result of your labor is also 100% yours and no one else’s.
-By Caleb Jones
In two days, this Saturday, I take the next step in a plan I’ve been working on for about seven years. Pink Firefly moves in with me under an OLTR marriage. This is a big event in my life, to say the least. It will be the first time I’ve lived with a woman full-time in over ten years. (I did live with my prior serious relationship part-time, as in 3-4 days a week, but this is the first time in ten years a woman is actually living with me full-time).
I have many more articles coming regarding how her and I will manage this under an Alpha Male 2.0 framework, but today we’re going to talk about you instead. How do should you assess whether or not to move in with a woman? By the end of this article, you’ll know.
First off, before we get into this, I have to address the two types of opposite extremists on this issue who I know will be upset at reading this article.
If you are one of those jaded guys who say you should NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER FOR ANY REASON EVER, then you need to stop right here and read this article. Seriously. Stop right now and go read it. If your question is “Why would you ever move in with a woman at all?” then again, stop right now and read this. I’m not going to waste my time in the comments repeating what I already said in that article that answers that question, so please, for the love of god, go read it before commenting and stating your opinion that no man should ever move in with a woman ever. (By the way, this is an opinion that I don’t necessarily disagree with, but one that requires a little more nuance than screaming the word “NEVER,” which is a very feminine word).
On the other extreme, I have to address the societally brainwashed right-wing guys who think monogamy is fine and traditional marriage works out just great as long as you marry a Christian virgin or something. No. You idiot. No.
If you move in with a woman while promising her monogamy, YOU ARE STUPID.
If you move in with a woman while expecting her to be 100% monogamous to you at all times forever, YOU ARE STUPID.
If you move in with a woman while putting both of you on the lease, YOU ARE STUIPD.
If you move in with a woman while co-buying a house with her, YOU ARE STUPID.
If you move in with a woman while combining your finances with her in any way, YOU ARE STUPID.
As always, I am not talking about moving in with a woman the normal way all of your Societally Programmed friends do. I’m talking here about an OLTR marriage, where you are allowed to have sex with other women even after the move-in and your finances are 100% separate and protected from hers in legally enforceable ways. If you move in with a woman in any other way, today in the Western world, then YOU ARE STUPID.
If you are tempted to do this, please go through the archive of this blog and start reading some articles so that you don’t fuck up your life like most other men do. I suggest starting with these articles:
How To Move In With A Woman – Step-By-Step Instructions
When She Asks To Borrow Money
The 12 Steps To Safely Have Kids With A Woman
Divorce Statistics
When To Spend Money On Women In A Relationship
How Open Marriage Works
Spending Money on Women When You Can Afford I
Don Jon – And Why You Should Not Change For A Woman
The (Lack of) Realism of Reducing the Odds of Divorce
What Life-Long Marriage Really Looks Like
Objections to OLTRs and Open Marriages
The 9 Different Marriage Legal Structures
How Often People Cheat – The Real Stats
Objections to Non-Monogamy and Their Answers
Alright, now that we’ve dealt with the two opposite extreme types of men who will hate this topic, let’s move on to the rest of you who can actually think objectively and actually want to be long-term happy.
Should you move in with a woman? Should you now, or later, or ever? Here are the six factors you need to assess:
You would never move in with a FB or MLTR. So when talking about co-habitation, we’re only talking about an OLTR relationship. As I already said in great detail here, OLTR’s are only for older men. They are not for younger men. Age 30 is the bare minimum to even start considering an OLTR, and I consider age 35 the real minimum.
Therefore, yes I’ll say it, if you move in with a woman under a romantic context and you are under 30, YOU ARE STUPID. Don’t do it.You should be age 35 or older before you consider moving in with a woman. The older you are, the better. Waiting until your forties, fifties, or even sixties is great. I’m 45 years old, so I qualify. A huge percentage of the men reading these words are under 35, and thus do not.
There is no rush to move in with a woman. For those of you who want kids, there is no rush to do this either. Calm the fuck down and wait until you’re older. It’s not that hard. Focus instead of having fun and building your income.
2. Your Level of Woman Experience –
Managing an OLTR is hard work. Living with an OLTR is even harder work. It requires confidence, strength, a chill, outcome independent demeanor, constant frame control, and a healthy amount of relationship management skills. This is true even if the woman you’re moving in with is a nice, calm, easygoing sweetheart.
If you’ve only had one or two decently serious relationships in your entire life, or only had sex with seven or eight girls, you don’t have anywhere near the level of experience necessary to pull this off.
You must have vast experience with women before moving in with one. When I say “vast experience” I’m talking about both sexual/pick-up experience and relationship experience. Both. Not one or the other. If you’ve had sex with 80 women but never had a consistent, happy relationship that lasted longer than a year or two, then you’re not ready. If you’ve had several multi-year-long relationships but you’ve only had sex with ten women in your entire life, you’re also not ready.
I hate putting numbers on these kinds of things, but as a rough estimate, if you haven’t had sex with at least 30-40 women and you’ve haven’t had at least two or three happy relationships that lasted well past the three-year mark, then in my strong opinion, you should not move in with a woman. You’re just not yet ready for the skill set it requires, nor have you gotten through the crazy phase men need to get through before they settle down with someone.
(Please do not get hung up on the exact numbers I just gave; they’re debatable. I’m just giving you an idea of the level of woman experience required before you actually move in with one.)
3. Your Pair Bonding Desires –
Some guys like to pair bond, other guys don’t. Neither is right or wrong; it’s just a personality trait. I’ve always been in the pair-bonding category. Even at the height of my craziness with women over the last ten years, where I was having sex all over the place and had huge amounts of women on rotation, I always was happier when I at least felt pair-bonded to one “favorite” woman whom I had a connection with, even if it was just a favorite MLTR.
If you’re like this, then it’s likely that when you get older, you’ll probably be happier if you live with a woman. If you’re not like this, I wouldn’t worry about it, and just live alone forever while dating as needed.
Personally, I would be perfectly happy if I never had an OLTR, but I also know I would be happier if I had one. So, I have one. But you may not need one, and that’s perfectly fine.
4. Her Age –
I’ve talked about this several times before. There’s a new disturbing trend of much older men getting very serious with, and moving in with hot 20 year-old girls as either girlfriends, wives, or sugar babies. FUCKING IDIOTS. You’re just asking for future problems if you do this. These men either love drama or are extremely short-sighted.
Just like you need to be over age 35, she also can’t be too young. The divorce rate for women under the age 25 is something like 92% the last time I checked. If you move in with a woman that young, you’re just begging for nuclear explosions to go off in your life a few years down the road. If you don’t mind unhappiness, then I guess go right ahead and do whatever you want (I don’t know why you’re reading my content though).
Otherwise, the woman you move in with should be well over age 25. In my strong opinion, she should be over 30. Now for those of you guys who are about to scream about “the wall,” remember that A) a lot women over 30 these days look super hot, as I’ve shown before, and B) don’t forget that we’re talking about OLTR here, so you are still more than welcome to have sex with younger women if you like. Your OLTR wife is not your only source of sex; that’s monogamy and that doesn’t work.For the record, Pink Firefly just turned 38. I specifically wanted a woman age 35 or over for my OLTR. I am far more comfortable with you moving in with a 38 year-old woman than you doing so with a 21 year-old.
5. How Picky, Anal, or Easily Frustrated You Are
Again, we’re talking about personality traits. Some people are very picky, anal, high maintenance, easily frustrated, detail oriented, and/or outcome dependent. If that sounds like you, moving in with a woman is a really bad idea. When she wants to decorate the kitchen differently than you, you’re going to have a fight, and a fight is drama, and drama is unacceptable. Touchy, anal people should live alone. I’m a little anal about certain things, but as an Alpha Male 2.0, I’m extremely outcome independent and I don’t give a shit. As long as she doesn’t touch my home office or my weight room, Pink Firefly is welcome to decorate, organize, and/or arrange the entire house and the entire yard literally any way she wants; I just don’t care. It was the same way when I was stupidly, traditionally, monogamously married so many years ago; as long as the wife didn’t mess with my home office, I don’t care what she did with the living room or the yard or whatever. I just don’t give a shit. I’m also a very happy guy who is almost never angry. All of this makes me a much better candidate to live with a woman than many other men.6. Your Ability to Consistently Ward Off De Facto Monogamy
OLTR’s are great since the usual threats most pair-bonded men face (lack of sex, financial threats, etc) don’t exist. However, the biggest threat to a man in an OLTR, by far, is de facto monogamy. If you think you’re the kind of guy who will “get lazy” or “get complacent” or “get too busy with work” to keep having sex with other women on the side at least occasionally, then you should probably not move in with a woman, at least not until you get to the point where you’re confident this won’t be a problem.
Getting de facto monogamous with an OLTR is just too easy, and I’ve seen many men make this mistake. Many men. When she moves in, this tendency gets even stronger (particularly when the move-in is still new, her boredom hasn’t kicked in yet, and she’s still having sex with you all the time).
Reducing your activity with side-women over time is perfectly fine, particularly as you get older and your priorities in life change. I’ve already done this and will continue to do so, by conscious choice. But going de facto monogamous, just because you’re a lazy dumbass who isn’t paying attention, and getting to the point where your OLTR wife is the only woman you’re having sex with… NO! Otherwise, you’re a beta, and will suffer all the usual consequences of being a beta. Have fun with that.
Long-term happiness requires consistency and constancy. Your Mission, your long-term goals, your sex life… these things should never radically change, and should always continue with or without a girlfriend or wife. If you don’t have that kind of consistency in you yet, you’re not ready in with a woman (unless you don’t mind drama or unhappiness).
Over the next few weeks, I’ll keep all of you updated on my progress with this new co-habitation, but remember that all this stuff is about you and your ability to stay long-term happy. Don’t be stupid, and don’t make the wrong decisions.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
Leave your comment below, but be sure to follow the Five Simple Rules.
maldek
Posted at 07:26 am, 28th December 2017The word “stupid” is the most used word in this article.
Life is not that complicated and over-thinking everything certainly would not make ME happy.
But then I wouldnt be happy even a tiny bit with your busy scedule BD eighter.
I found that often when you are in tune with yourself (unlike following social programming) the best things happen when you simply do what feels right.
Long checklists may help rookies to avoid the most stupid mistakes, but then – we often only learn and grow stronger from our mistakes. You are a good example. Without the not-so-happy experiences in your first marriage you would never have become the person you are now.
You may want to keep that in mind when you advice young pleople to “play it save” – sometimes stupid mistakes are the best we can do.
In any case best of luck to both of you!
Rollo
Posted at 07:33 am, 28th December 2017Well, firstly Congrats, BD!
Second, I’m genuinely interested in (then) how you’ll deal with kind of relationship problem with woman who you live under the same roof with you, since you can’t using soft-next techniques anymore.
Ash (Dames That Know)
Posted at 08:13 am, 28th December 2017Congrats on your new step and good luck.
I’ve lived with my significant other for 10 years now, and things are great. It’s whenever we have had roommates that was always the problem.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:25 am, 28th December 2017Happiness is not your objective (you’re a monogamous Alpha Male 1.0 who has regular drama).
Sometimes that’s true and sometimes it’s not. Even if it was true 100% of the time, that doesn’t mean you rush through life to ensure more mistakes occur. Lastly, some mistakes are not worth making, because the long-term damage from them isn’t worth the lesson learned, if any. Read chapter two of my book where I examine that “mistakes are good!” concept in detail.
I’ll be discussing that soon.
Yeaaaahhhhh we’re not going to have roommates. I’m not surprised that created problems.
CrabRangoon
Posted at 11:08 am, 28th December 2017Good stuff man! I feel most men do not put nearly enough thought into living with a woman. They just do it and hope for the best with no plan in mind or get strong armed into it by the girl. People that move in together very quickly while under the thrall of NRE are the worst by far. I can’t think of any example where that worked out. Don’t you also find it interesting that many women push for co-habiting only to get quickly bored of it and seemingly unhappy in the situation most of the time? I guess it’s their constant struggle between perceived security and boredom with a domesticated man.
These posts also make me think harder about what I really want long term and as of right now, living with someone isn’t something I care to do. I realize that may change down the road but I can only speak for how I feel today. I like having my own space and the solitude when I want it. I tried living with a woman once for a couple years and it was a disaster. Wish I had this info back in my younger days!
Curtis T
Posted at 11:41 am, 28th December 2017OLTR’s are a joke. Grow up! End of discussion.
CrabRangoon
Posted at 11:55 am, 28th December 2017Curtis T you got a better idea???? Please share. Throwing insult bombs out are a waste of time and unless you can backup why you feel this way, don’t bother commenting.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:57 am, 28th December 2017Then why do you have one?
skills
Posted at 12:14 pm, 28th December 2017It is not popular to talk about in the manosphere, specially in the seduction community… But men have HUGE intimacy needs, of course most denied, rationalized etc…
I just came out of a 3 months sexual rampage and it was fun, but exhausting and unfulfilling… However, as you know needed in order to select properly rotation etc..
Out of multiple girl per bonded with one, and found a bi sexual girl perfect as a side girl (since she will supply other women for 3 somes)…
But the 2 things i realized and i was thinking about you, is that you only indeed need 2 women (100% correct).
And the intimacy and connection with one women greater imho than multiple meaningless notches…
About 35 that is a pretty good age 30 i would bump up to 32 though, me personally i would say 38. So you say 30 and 35; i personally say 32 and 38…
Bd i really recommend you when you get a chance to listen to this by rev. (thank me later) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX0RsqHPiZA
Cherie86
Posted at 01:28 pm, 28th December 2017BD,
What would your advice be for an OLTR couple who are thinking about purchasing a new house together? As far as I can see, we would just need to be sure only one of us is listed on the deed, and we would update our cohabitation agreement? Even though we each would be equally supporting the household itself, we don’t want to fall into any legal pitfalls regarding the house either.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:33 pm, 28th December 2017You wouldn’t purchase it together. Person A would purchase it on his/her own and Person B would live there in the home and either pay rent to Person A or live rent-free.
To be more specific:
1. Person A purchases the home by himself/herself.
2. Person A is the only name on the deed and the mortgage.
3. Person A and B write up a co-habitation agreement separating communal from individual property, and the home would be 100% individual property of Person A.
4. Person B would pay monthly rent to Person A, or Person B would live rent-free (that’s up to them). A rental agreement could be drawn up, but in many jurisdictions this isn’t necessary.
Doing it any other way means you’re in for a huge legal/financial battle when the relationship ends. Fighting each other over each of your 50% valuation of the house, trying to sell the house, wrestling over the legalities and paperwork while you hate each other, etc, it’s a fucking nightmare and I see ex-couples go through it all the time. (One of my brothers just went through it last year; mass chaos.) It’s stupid and needless.
David
Posted at 06:00 pm, 28th December 2017“never had a consistent, happyrelationship that lasted longer than a year or two, then you’re not ready.”
Yeah looks like Im decades away from being ready lol
Erik Moore
Posted at 06:06 pm, 28th December 2017(By the way, this is an opinion that I don’t necessarily disagree with, but one that requires a little more nuance than screaming the world “NEVER,” which is a very feminine word).
A little typo. Good article overall, glad to finally find someone in the manosphere whose head doesn’t explode at the idea of moving in with a woman.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 06:54 pm, 28th December 2017Fixed; thanks.
Yeah, I just explode at the idea of doing it the dangerous way most men do it, not just doing it.
Macro Investor
Posted at 10:41 pm, 28th December 2017Hope it works out for you, but I doubt it will. Your girl is agreeing to this now because she is appeasing you. Later she won’t be happy, and you’ll have your dreaded drama as she tries to change you to monogamy. Or you’ll become unhappy because she’ll want to adopt dogs/cats or the loser relative sleeping on your couch watching TV all day.
And an observation — most of the guys I know married or moved in with women thinking they were “locking in” their sex toy for life. That was in combination with being a lonely, needy guy. Almost all of these relationships ended with her cheating after NRE wore out. I have friends with 3 or more marriages that lasted less than a year. Others are long-term married, unhappy, but state openly that divorce would ruin them financially.
A mine field I see often — the single mother with broken kids who will never be self sufficient. If you get financially tied to her you’ll be paying to have a surly asshole around all the time.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:40 pm, 28th December 2017I don’t know if it will or won’t, but you’re the same guy who said my moving out of the country won’t work either, because you read on a forum (or something) a bunch of BS about how passports cost $250K (huh?) and that you can’t ever enter the US if you renounce citizenship (huh?) and that foreign bank accounts cost a lot of money (huh?). So with all due respect, I’m not putting any stock in your opinions since clearly they’re not backed by anything factual.
Yavuz
Posted at 03:14 am, 29th December 2017All the Best and good luck BD! I cannot wait for your future articles talking about how to manage side(FB, MLTR, etc) women and the one you live with when you live with OLTR.
lao
Posted at 03:40 am, 29th December 2017Good luck BD and PF.
My only tip would be that personally I found that separate bedrooms makes life much more bearable when living together, particularly when the two of you have a large gap in your usual bedtime. I’d also go as far as taking Sir Michael Caine’s suggestion of separate bathrooms too if we could afford it.
Cam70
Posted at 04:38 am, 29th December 2017Don’t obfuscate the truth BD, you’re getting monogamous. 😉
Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle is cool but it takes a lot of effort. And we’re getting older…
Gil Galad
Posted at 06:14 am, 29th December 2017I assume the limit one should never go under in the process of reducing his activity with side women is the same as the threshold where you consider a man de facto monogamous, ie once per 30-40 days?
David
Posted at 08:50 am, 29th December 2017So is it common for guys to NEVER live with a woman? I know I dont want kids, marriage, or cohabitation, and ive felt that way for 15 years. But I always lie. I mean I have relationships that last usually only a few months. If she asks on the first day we meet about what Im looking for, I usually say whatever she wants to hear, because I know she wont last anyway. Whenever Ive said I dont want anything serious, they usually bolt before even getting to know eachoher. The irony is, they usually end the relationship. Maybe they can tell I want space, or maybe theyre so young that they want to party and be free. Its been great honestly lol and this blog has helped reduce that tiny nagging of my parents telling me to settle down.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:51 am, 29th December 2017Agree. We don’t have two full-on bedrooms but we have a spare room with a full bed that we will maintain for exactly that reason; it’s always there if needed.
Actually, two separate bathrooms is a requirement for a live-in OLTR. A man seeking long-term happiness can not share a bathroom with a female. That’s pure insanity (unless he doesn’t mind drama and inconvenience). And if he can’t afford to do that he needs to wait until he can to live with someone. (Exception to the rule: the guy is rich and has a gigantic bathroom that has two completely separate “areas” for man / woman.)
So yes, we have two separate bathrooms. Of course.
How? Would you like to know the number of women I’ve slept with this month?
And if your answer is, “Well, once she moves in, then you’ll be monogamous,” then please state that for the record so I can point out your comment a few years to show how wrong you are. (I’m saving links to all the guys who say I’m going to go monogamous now that I live with a woman.)
Happiness always requires more effort than unhappiness, correct.
Speak for yourself. I feel younger today at age 45 than I ever did at age 20, 28, or 35.
Numerical age is only one of many factors; it is not the deciding factor for aging unless you’re over age 70.
No. Such men are rare exceptions to the rule.
I always say to not lie to women, but I always add that if all you want are brief relationships for the rest of your life, you can ignore my advice.
Correct; as I’ve talked about in my book and on this blog, you don’t live your life for your fucking parents. Once you move out of the home, your parents can go fuck off. Love your parents, but don’t obey your parents and don’t even try to impress your parents once you become an adult. (And yes, this applies to my own children.)
WTF_was_I_thinking
Posted at 11:22 am, 29th December 2017Comment deleted. Curtis, please don’t post using multiple different names while leaving random troll statements. Final warning. Thanks.
Stefano
Posted at 04:54 pm, 29th December 2017Best of luck, man. I am with Macro Investor on this one: be wholly prepared to fail (not only yourself, but her logistics: getting her out FAST and on her feet financially to mitigate most drama). I agree that every guy who moves in (kids or planned kids or not) falls for the “above the game” fallacy:
It is either a misconception of “this one is different” / “locking up the sex”… or it’s “she really needs it and I owe it to her” (Captain Save-A-Ho). Either is misguided. Truly independent women want nothing to do with having their freedoms restricted, and the control games begin for any couple – OLTR or not. There is great stuff on this on RLD’s “Advanced Game” series.
Personally, I’m 37 years old (lay count around 100, relationships of 5yr, 3yr, 2yr, 2yr… a couple others 6+ months). I’ve lived with three women and backed out on a fourth. It is nearly impossible IMHO. One move-in was a Euro professional cleaning service lady who barely did squat for home cleaning and generated nonstop shopping lists once I let her camp out (Captain Save-A-Ho, obviously)… as you guess, this was despite her obvious promises of the exact opposite beforehand, lmao.
This is basically why I think it’s a suicide mission to the couple’s attraction:
-submissive women almost NEVER live alone. She probably lived with roommates, family, or at minimum some pet before you. You must now become her social outlet and her entertainer. It is cool, but it also sucks sometimes. Will at RLD really hit well on this with dissecting the female promises and matriarchy, etc pitfalls.
-you add tons of NOT sexy stuff: cleaning, accounting, decorating, etc etc. Most honeys (you or her – esp you!) don’t want a honey-do list. It adds control most monogamous beta men or submissive women even rebel a bit on – much moreso an independent, dominant, or any sort of alpha. It doesn’t matter how strong your “alpha frame” is… you can’t keep it up 24/7, and betas can’t keep their whining bottled up 24/7. That is inevitable. Can strategies Athol’s teamwork or Rollo’s self improvement and dread keep it rolling along? Maaaaybe. At least you have wisdom to not tie your financial and legal bandwagon to it.
-Sex is always “available” when your partner is home, but one or both is not always feeling sexy. That means more rejection than either has ever experienced before. Not good at all. You are no longer just seeing each other at your best for a date, sex session, weekend mini vaca, etc. Sure, you have seen your partner weak before or seen them fairly gross looking in the morning or in the bathroom, but now you see it more and see it worse. Again, not good. This gets MUCH worse when you don’t have a two or more bathroom setup.
-The main one for me (and most guys – most people) is certainly: you lose your sanctuary! You must face your partner immediately when you arrive home from work exhausted, tired, stressed, etc etc and just wanting to CHILL. You will also now be questioned when you just want to veg out, read, watch a movie, meditate, roll around naked, eat a whole pizza, etc you could. Now, it might get passive aggressive and/or interruptive. If you have kids and are used to this, maybe you won’t mind it. Logic says otherwise.
…The idea of MORE intimacy is a total myth. It gives a jolt of NRE whe cohabitating since you get to conquer a new obstacle together (setting up and fixing a house or etc). However, it also takes away so much freedom and quiet time – namely a place to bed FBs, assuming OLTR.
If I did OLTR, the only plausible option would be maybe a duplex or side-by-side apartments or condos. It just does not work. Again, good luck. I’m alpha 1.0 and do the player or deep intimacy monogamy thing all the way, and you can bet your bottom dollar that I will never live with a woman ever again. The only *possible* exception would be retirement age for BOTH of us when we intended to travel frequently AND have a cleaning service, lawn service, etc etc… so the main house is essentially just a frequently utilized hotel for us. Even that I’m not sure on.
In the end, I would say to each their own. What works for one guy doesn’t work for the world. That is for damn sure. If you want to be open, be open. If you want to be monog, be monog. If you want to just date casual and/or be on your mission, then do that.
There is room in the world for all, but I would bet a few books (I pay again, or you refund) that this will not last one year. The comments seem to be going that way, and these are your “friendly” people who like your stuff and value your advice. To think you are above the game here could be a crap shoot. Sorry to not mince words, but consider this post and my bet motivation to communicate well, let her dictate groceries, and leave the seat down? 😉
Anon
Posted at 06:57 pm, 29th December 2017The topic of separate bathrooms has been raised multiple times, which is surprising for me. Anyone care to elaborate?
Jacques
Posted at 09:03 pm, 29th December 2017Thank you for writing this article, Blackdragon. I learned a lot from it. I always wondered whether or not to enter into an OLTR, but after reading your article, I realized I don’t think I’m ready yet for such a thing. I feel better now. I’m 27 years old now, but once I reach 35, I’ll start to think about whether to have an OLTR or not. But for now, I’ll just enjoy my current MLTRs and fuck buddies, and move on to more important matters in my life. 🙂
Johnny Clay
Posted at 08:16 am, 30th December 2017The “separate bathrooms” thing seems to be key. Michael Caine is about to celebrate his 45th wedding anniversary, and — as posted above — claims that “separate bathrooms” is the secret.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11076055/Michael-Caine-Secret-to-a-happy-marriage-Separate-bathrooms.html
Larry Hagman (“Dallas” and “I Dream of Jeannie”) was married for 57 years (until his passing in 2012 at age 81). His secret? “Separate bathrooms.” (He would say this frequently in interviews).
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/larry-hagman-i-was-drinking-five-bottles-of-champagne-on-set-but-i-was-never-drunk-8092749.html
Parade
Posted at 08:24 am, 30th December 2017Why? I’ve lived with women before as roommates with one bathroom, I’ve lived with men as roommates with one bathroom, and I can’t say I ever cared which gender it was, or experienced any inconvienice because of it. Why the need for a second bathroom? Sure, the chicks have more products in the bathroom, but I couldn’t care less about that…is there something else that changes when you move in with a chick, or am I just odd in that respect? (Since I see multiple other people agree that 2 are needed)
Eli Sunday
Posted at 11:59 am, 30th December 2017Long-time listener, first-time caller here.
First off, love your work. It changed my life. Thank you.
I have just a few thoughts on cohabitation and how it relates to the life of the AM2.0. Your metaphor about the bullet train in your book is a good one. The female passengers hop on and off your train as it suits your needs. This example explains the AM2.0s nature of uncompromising commitment to personal code and mission, always filtered through the lens of longterm happiness. Let’s now talk about the concept of OLTR marriage, because…pair-bonding. Suddenly, this bullet train is more like a pack mule pulling the chuckwagon with a woman as the driver. I’m making an extreme analogy to draw attention to the idea of “compromise,” practically understood as giving in to the demands of a woman in your life. The bullet train is now compromised because of compromise. I think the AM2.0 model is damaged by what is part and parcel to pair-bonding, that of OLTR marriage. The AM2.0 is happy and has a mission. But let’s not delude ourselves-we’re talking about living with (a) another person, and (b) that person being a woman. Very few men attain AM2.0, and it is silly to think a woman will adopt the mindset to personally apply the AM2.0 model to her own life. It is wishful thinking that your OLTR will let you stay AM2.0 without trying to erode at it, perhaps through weakness which can be seen as no real fault per se. It has to do with the inherent feel of ownership that is central to marriage and cohabitation. In theory, the AM2.0 works in an OLTR because of the don’t-mess-with-me-and-I-won’t-mess-with-you nature of the man’s frame. In practice, however, we start right out of the gate with giving in to the wants and needs of the woman. I think it’s central to the topic to identify what these compromises are, and how it potentially hinders the AM2.0. What will change in the marriage? I’m not talking about toilet seat positions or the type of decorations in the living room. The AM2.0 might be able to uphold the agreement, but you’re dealing with another person. Most people aren’t evolved in this sense, women less so. In the comment section of one of your related articles, there seemed to be examples of stark contrast between male and female wants even before the OLTR marriage. Do we think the ultimate compromises won’t be subjected to the same forces of a traditional marriage? I mean, no one really marries to end up divorced.
Rules will be broken. Fewer rules means fewer pacts to violate. But the nature of these rules is too much for the vast majority of women to respect, even if agreed to beforehand. Marriage and cohabitation invite the violations. It’s built into the system. It’s set up ostensibly as self-imposed rules to govern your own behavior in a union. In practice, it morphs from self-control into control over the other.
It’s that goddamned pair-bonding thing that throws the wrench in the works. We’ll pair-bond up until the point of you threatening to derail the bullet train. Then that’s when you get off at the next station and I continue on my merry way. Only continuing on my merry way might mean we sell property, or you pack up and leave, or I pack up and leave, or we both pack up and leave. No problem, I still have my mission and that fuckbuddy or two I decided to keep. Except I just lost that thing that matters, the pair-bonding. Damn. But I’ll be over here being happy. Except for that pair-bonding I don’t have anymore and need in my life. No problem, I only need the next decade to find the next ex-OLTR. Divorce is divorce even in OLTR marriages, even for reasons other than the fucking-other-people part. People don’t do too well when boxed in, even in the pair-bonding thing. Life is more fluid than that.
Yes, you’re right, there are no perfect options, only this that’s the least bad. You get to keep your nature of AM2.0 in very large part and minimize the bad of current conventions.
Perhaps instead of beating the drum of monogamy not working, would it be better stated that both monogamy and lifelong pair-bonding don’t work?
The true strength of the AM2.0 lies in his ability to keep the train on the rails of his mission instead of getting lost in the perversity of control over others and all of life’s disrupting minutiae. Enter the world of pair-bonding and OLTR marriage and you’re inviting some level of negative impact on that mission. Is it worth the tradeoff? Probably yes. That is the similar to the thinking that encourages traditional marriage.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:14 pm, 30th December 2017Have you not read anything about how I’ve structured this relationship financially and sexually?
The rest of your comment (just scanned it; too long) looks like you said, “This probably won’t work because when I did while monogamous it didn’t work.” Great, but I’m not monogamous. (Do you even know what an OLTR is?)
Yep! 27 is way too soon. Good call.
Correct. I have no such expectation.
Incorrect. Read this and this.
That is not how I look at it. I don’t need pair-bonding to be happy, as I clearly said in the article. I generally prefer to be pair-bonded. A preference is not a need. I’d prefer to live in a cool, sunny place like San Diego instead of living in the rainy, cold Pacific NW where I live now. But I don’t need to, and I’m very happy living where I’m currently living.
Now, if you need to be pair-bonded to be happy, yes, the difficulty bar is raised for your long-term consistent happiness. No way around that. Fortunately I’m not in that category. Never have been.
Incorrect. An OLTR divorce is a universe of difference from a standard divorce. That’s one of the key points of OLTR.
If you define “work” as forever, then yes. That’s Disney and Disney doesn’t exist. ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY (unless you’re both already over age 60). Yes, there are unusual exceptions, as always. You could be one, I could be one, or nether of us will be. Don’t know, and it doesn’t matter. Your job is to seek and find long-term happiness within the real world, not seek Disney like a traditional right-wing conserative.
I have a detailed post coming up on exactly how I define “work” in terms of “will it work?” with odds of success and failure. Coming soon.
Depends on the man.
Macro Investor
Posted at 02:50 pm, 30th December 2017“you’re the same guy who said”
Glad you have such a good memory. Perhaps you should re-read some of your own comments from the other blog. I went back and found you wrote most of that yourself. The rest are from various dubious sites like sovereign man, which you seem to rely on without attribution or research. You should either update your earlier articles or accept that you are the source of information you no longer respect.
Let’s wait and see if you really have your woman tamed the way you think you do. And let’s see if you really move to 5 different countries 7 years from now. I’ve seen tons of guys make statements like that and they never (and I mean NEVER) followed through. I don’t know you, so perhaps you are the one in a million.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 03:14 pm, 30th December 2017Thanks!
I ever said 2 passports cost $250K. You did. I never said foreign bank accounts cost a lot of money. You did. I never said you might not be able to ever re-enter the US if you renounce citizenship. You did. And so on.
Please take ownership of what you say. I do.
I don’t have her tamed in any way and never said I have. I’m Alpha 2.0. I never tell women what to do. Taming a woman is Alpha 1.0, not 2.0.
(Seriously; it’s as if some of you guys have never read any of my past articles at this blog before this one.)
I have clearly said in multiple occasions that I am moving to 2 countries (HK and NZ) at the most, not 5. I have no idea where you got 5.
I’m not sure what’s wrong with you, since you can’t seem to quote me correctly on literally anything you’re complaining about, so this is my last response to you at either of my blogs.
Anon
Posted at 03:19 pm, 30th December 2017Hey BD, you are avoiding the mostest importantest question of all—why the two bathrooms? I’m not even asking hard questions like how to distribute the three seashells among the bathrooms, just why two in general?
azog
Posted at 03:23 pm, 30th December 2017Most of the negativity in this thread? Classic projection. These guys are feeling their past fuckups and puking them up on you. I don’t agree with everything you say, but I think you’re more likely to make something like this work than most guys who try to live with a girl, especially the men in this thread saying watch out it probably can’t be done.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 03:39 pm, 30th December 2017I was writing my response to that when Macro Investor came up with is weirdness. Patience, my son, patience. And this isn’t the most important question of them all. Really? Don’t be dumb. (I really hope you were being sarcastic, but I have a feeling you weren’t even if you’re going to say you were.)
Not sharing a bathroom with a woman you live with in a romantic context. If any man asks why this would be a problem, this is proof positive that such a man has never lived with a woman in a romantic context, or else he would already know the answer.
I’m taking here about a woman you’re living with in a romantic context. Platonic female roommates do not count (although even then I wouldn’t do it simply because of the inconvenience factor). The dynamic of such a relationship is completely different and can’t be compared to woman who treats you like her husband or live-in BF.
If you share a bathroom with your wife or live-in OLTR / LTR, here’s what is likely to occur:
– You’ll argue over how things should be arranged.
– You’ll have semi-regular arguments over when it can be used and by whom. She needs to take a shower RIGHT NOW but you’re in there taking a shit. You need take a shower to go somewhere now but she’s fucking around and taking too long taking hers. Happens all the time. Forever.
– Your stuff will be mixed in with crap like her makeup smears, her long hairs everywhere, etc.
– You may not have room in the shower for all your stuff with all of her girly crap.
– She’ll complain about your hair in the shower, or your toothpaste stain on the sink, etc. (Remember, a female roommate probably won’t bitch about this, but your live-in GF or wife definitely will, particularly after NRE has died down.)
– If your bathroom isn’t huge, you may not have enough room for your crap and hers, causing you move shit around every morning for the rest of your life (and also possibly causing arguments).
– You get to smell each other’s farts and shit if you need the bathroom right after she takes a shit or vice versa. (And imagine a GF or wife not complaining about such a thing.)
– You get to argue about whether or not to leave the toilet seat up, and when. Not to mention how dirty the toilet is or who’s fault it is.
And so on. Those are just a few items; I could list a million more.
Sharing a bathroom with a live-in GF or wife is only for men who don’t mind drama (and remember that many Alpha 1.0’s don’t, so these kinds of guys are going to be very confused as to why I’m even discussing this) or who don’t mind daily inconvenience forever (note what I said in the article about men who are more anal). Yes, there are always rare exceptions to this rule; doesn’t matter as usual.
Sharing a bathroom long-term with a woman you’re fucking is asking for problems. Don’t do it.
Anon
Posted at 04:04 pm, 30th December 2017Thanks for the answer. I wasn’t sarcastic, but wasn’t meaning it literally either; I was just surprised because I never would have thought this was such a major issue (having, as you correctly guessed, never lived with a woman). Live and learn!
Gang
Posted at 06:54 pm, 30th December 2017Blackdragon, do you think that a major yet very simple requirement is that the man desires to never sleep alone? Or at least desires to sleep alone as few times as possible?
Or in other words, if the man desires to sleep alone every nights or at least most of the nights, then this automatically disqualifies him for living with a woman (unless 2% exception of the rule of a woman who dislike sleeping with someone).
How about you? Do you prefer sleeping most night alone or sleeping most nights not alone?
And by the way I don’t understand at all why most women seem to enjoy so much sleeping with someone EVERY NIGHT. And they seem to dread so much skeeping alone. Apparently a lot of guys are like that also. I dunno, but to me even the mere preference of sleeping most of the nights with someone seems as extremely needy behaviour.
I didn’t have much trouble sharing a bathroom women I was in a relationship with except with one but she was really abnormally uptight about order and cleanliness.
However my huge problem is sharing the same bedroom. It just drives me completely insane to sleep EVERY FUCKING NIGHT with someone. If she moves, it wakes me up. Often, she comes to hug me and FUCKING WAKES me up again. And then it takes me ages to fall back to sleep.
I really enjoy cuddling and hugging often, if not every day, when I am awake. I enjoy falling asleep while hugging. But once I sleep I just prefer to be alone. So as soon as I wake up again, I jist want to go to another bedroom and sleep the whole rest of the night alone. Then after I wake up, ok I can cuddle .I also enjoy sleeping with a loved one occasionaly. But sleeping every night, THIS is the number one problem I have.
It gets slightly better with 2 beds next to each others so that it makes a big bed. Cuddle then roll on my side. And have and agreement that I don’t want to feel any movement near me and certainky not be touched while I sleep. I don’t want to be waken up. Problem is: this is Alpha 1.0. Women ressent this a lot. Fucking huge source of drama.
I tried 2 bedrooms once: huge source of drama. This woman still went into my room at night and wake me up anyways.
I fucking hate HAVING, most of the nights, to sleep in the same room, or worse in the same bed with someone else. It’s really something I can only enjoy if it’s just occasional. And even then, I still dislike the sleeping with someone part, it’s only a trade off for enjoying the falling asleep while cuddling and hugging, and cuddling when waking up. Things that anyway I could still do while spending most of the rest of the night Alone in another room.
Parade
Posted at 08:04 pm, 30th December 2017Interesting. Nothing in the above would bother me at all…except the toilet seat thing, but my stance on that is when I use the bathroom I’ll leave it however I feel like, not engage in drama over it. Dunno, the bathroom to me is a place to shit, piss, and shower. I don’t really care how stuff is arranged or whatever.
But I’ve only lived with a chick in a romantic context for ~2 years, and I’m not living with that chick anymore. I probably won’t do it again any time soon, either. But maybe in the distant(10+ years) future…
David
Posted at 09:29 pm, 30th December 2017Stefanos comment was awesome. And I agree with gang too. Maybe we’re products of this messed up society, or mayne we’re sociopaths. I hate sleeping with people and hate having to share my place with anyone. Even spending a weekend with one woman drives me nuts. Maybe that will change in ten years, tho. Im thirty four now and cant keep/stay tied down for more than a few months.
Leon
Posted at 01:37 am, 31st December 2017Stefanos pointed out some (not all) good points, too bad BD didn’t try to discuss them though. Anyway, I feel very lucky that I now have a living role model (or guinea pig? time will tell) to learn how an open marriage works and whether it’s worth it or not.
Unlike some people here, I’m totally happy that BD chose to experiment living with an OLTR. It’s like seeing Master Yoda practices a lighthalberd, exciting and helpful either ways.
Gang
Posted at 01:59 am, 31st December 2017Another thing I tried for the sleeping with a woman most nights, is that whenever I wake up myself, I roll to her side and cuddle her, the only purpose being: to preempt her desire to cuddle. I also make sure to wake her up as much and as long as possible, just to mess with her sleep as much as possible, so that she feels as tired as possible. The idea is to kill as much as possible her desire for sleeping with someone and instead raise her desire to sleep alone. At most this strategy only lowers a little bit the number of her rolling to me for a hug.
But it seemed it also augmented drama in other parts, just because it was makng her more tired indeed. She would be in denial of the sleep situation and just manufacture more drama about completely unrelated stuffs. Possibly kills attraction also.
I never brought a woman to aknowledge verbally that it’s just better to sleep alone most nights and to only sleep together very occasionally.
Parade
Posted at 09:30 am, 31st December 2017Gang, Your approach is a stupidly passive aggressive one. It might be alpha 1.0, but it really seems extremely beta. ‘I’m too scared to just tell her that I don’t like sleeping with someone so I’m going to disturb her sleep as much as possible’
Similarly with your earlier comment. You’re getting drama about it because you’re not handling it properly. You can deal with the drama, compromise, or ignore the drama. If you want two bedrooms and she is extremely upset by that, then you didn’t pick the right chick. Or you can make a deal: I sleep alone on weeknights, with you on weekends. Or whatever works. But if it’s something you can’t compromise on you absolutely have to screen for it before you move in together.
No more Mr. nice guy
Posted at 10:31 am, 31st December 2017In the past, I’ve shared a bathroom (“Romantically“) with two different women for multiple years, and never found it to be a problem.
I think it really depends on the couple… It’s hardly a universal necessity for cohabitation.
But if either one of you are the type that can’t share a bathroom, you should know that upfront, and plan accordingly.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:27 am, 31st December 2017As long as A) I get my own blanket and B) the woman doesn’t wake me up via noises or movement, then I don’t care. I agree those are two big “ifs” though. If I have to share a blanket/comforter/whatever with a woman and/or she moves around a lot, makes a lot of noise, or sleeps with a dog that barks in the middle of the night, or whatever, then yes, I’m going to sleep alone.
I think most men who hate sleeping with women don’t realize that if you sleep in a king size bed (which most people don’t, I don’t either, yet) and you get your OWN blanket that she can’t pull on in the middle of the night, then sleeping with a woman is fine. (This assumes the woman is quiet all night; if she’s not, then yeah, you have a problem.)
The problem is most guys, when they sleep with a woman, use a queen or twin sized bed and try to share blankets. Yep, that will most likely suck balls, but it means you didn’t think ahead.
It wasn’t the 2 bedrooms that was the source of the drama. It was the woman you were living with.
Harry Browne strongly recommended two completely separate bedrooms, even if you both slept together every night or most nights. I agree. PF has her own separate “spare” room with a spare bed in there that she can use / live in without any interference from me. And I have my giant home office and my workout room that is “mine.” This was all part of my plan.
Separate areas in the home is critical; it’s not just about bathrooms.
Yeah that sounds fucking terrible.
If you don’t want a woman sleeping with you, don’t sleep with a woman.
As always, I give advice based on the odds, not based on any individual. Most men are going to have some amount of drama/inconvenience/disagreements when sharing a bathroom with a romantic partner for a long span of time. If you want the odds in your favor, don’t do it. If you don’t care, or want to see if you’re one of the exceptions to the rule, go ahead and do it and cross your fingers, but that’s not the way I live my life.
D
Posted at 06:18 pm, 1st January 2018The king size bed and separate blanket makes a ton of sense.
BD, how do you deal with or plan to deal with this one, of where to go when you inevitably want some introvert time or to be totally focused on something? It’s possible your separate apartment mentioned elsewhere or your home office covers this, but is there some other plan to address this?
This also sounds right, that what used to be a quick call each day becomes hours a day, and suddenly you have zero space and her wanting to talk way more than you’re interested in plus the overfamiliarity of countless hours together dulls how happy you are to see each other. Leaving aside the typical ‘escapes’ (long hours at the office, lots of time out with friends…) that seem less likely here or less productive solutions, how do you plan to deal with this?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:23 am, 2nd January 2018I’ll address all of that in great detail in upcoming articles and books, I promise. I don’t want to start getting into the weeds on co-habitation here; it could go forever.
That would be your fault.
That would be your fault.
I’ll answer that soon, but the simple answer is “never allow that stuff in your life in the first place.” Which, I agree, can be difficult over time. (Betaization is soooooo easy.)
Chris Stevenson
Posted at 09:37 am, 4th January 2018looking forward to your continuing discussions as to how this will work. this article and your answers to comments are intriguing. i always considered my wonderful live-in situation to be something that was a unicorn and that it would never happen again. this occurred after i had casual relationships and established my own house that i brought her into. when something just worked, one often does not know how or why. now i see that some of the things that you recommend were not necessary in my situation as we were very similar. your framework allows dissimilar characteristics to not be an issue. regarding your bathroom discussions in the comments, it is like modern housing was designed to cause conflicts between housemates. it seems that I have a sense of how i like my house setup and decorated, much less than you. perhaps this is alpha to a female as it says definitively what i like. it was interesting the trepidation that she had when she was brought into my space. does kind of make one feel manly. yet, i was totally without a care in other ways. this proposes that it is not what a man is particular about it is that he really knows what is important to him and why and can bend in other ways. hard ass Alpha 1.0’s bitch about everything and become trying to live with.
perhaps a technique for a man would be to list on paper what is really necessary for him to have his way and reflect upon it. then he can see where he might need to work on himself and what makes him who he is. also, he can prioritize his needs. it is nice when there are a few things that he sticks to instead of reacting to everything with emotion.
when i did this i realized that i do not want chaos and disorder in my personal space and do not like being used by people nor disturbed by their drama. it made a lot of sense to my companion. she kind of liked my ban on unplanned visitors and disconnected doorbell.
TheRealCurtis
Posted at 09:30 pm, 4th January 2018This post is to correct the record somewhat as much as I can.
I have been part of a bad divorce that deals with lots of drama and accusations and blackmail etc over the past 4 years.
I have had others posting items on my behalf as “Curt”, “Curtis” and “CurtsNOKC” etc it appears.
So, to clear up concerns and confusion for my GF (lets call her Cynthia), I am posting this. I have been Exclusive with her (not an OLTR) for the most part of 2017 aside from the couple of times she broke up with me (don’t laugh I know what your thinking lol). I am an avid reader of BD and believe 90% of his stuff is true. She knows I read this website and we debate it all the time. She knows that I fear mono relationships but was willing to try it with her because of her amazing sex drive, bubbly personality, intelligence and open mind. I love her dearly and would love to have her in my life long-term! Currently, we are trying other ways to spice up our mono relationship with threesomes (2.5) eventually for when we pass the 2 year NRE phase and we have recently moved in together. For the record, I have not cheated on her or slept with anyone else (except for when she broke up with me for a few days lol) and I am crazy about her, otherwise I would have NEVER attempted to try to do something like monogamy! I sure hope that I don’t kick myself for attempting this some day and that you guys can’t laugh at me too lol. Btw, the majority of ladies I dated last 4 years, I was not mono with so I am not one of those guys anymore. But I do weigh out the pros and cons and see does the fun outweigh the drama of going mono and decide from there. And with my Cynthia, I decided that she was worth taking the risk on it!! I LOVE YOU CYNTHIA;)
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:55 pm, 4th January 2018You are lying. You seem to forget that I’m the administrator of this blog and can see all commenters’ IP addresses, locations, and email addresses. The last two comments you made (and yes, it was you, not anyone else) made were troll comments and I had to delete the second one, which I rarely have to do. There isn’t anyone “posting on your behalf.” Either you’re a troll, or this woman you have beta oneitis for is a troll (by using your computer and your email address to make bullshit comments here, which somehow I doubt but I acknowledge it’s possible).
Either way, you have major life problems, you’re headed for a fall (which is the fate of all men who have oneitis and go monogamous), and I will ban your ass (and your high-drama GF if she’s posting as you) if you make one more troll comment here.
And please don’t lie. It’s unbecoming. Be a man.
Jack Outside the Box
Posted at 01:31 am, 5th January 2018Pathetic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_RqaCDdg6s
C Lo
Posted at 11:29 pm, 6th January 2018I tip my hat to BD. Maybe nine more years after my divorce I’ll be ready to live with a woman again. I’m just too independent to surrender any autonomy again. Once was enough. I’m assuming some day I’ll want to pair bond again, but not now.
Not to continue be the jaded guy, but it’s gonna be tough to move a woman in on $75k if you are on the coasts AND not commingle funds AND maintain separate spaces. I live in a postage stamp sized house that I can afford but it’s got two tiny bedrooms and one bath so small you have to go outside to change your mind. The chick I’ve been dating lives in a similar circumstances, and brought up the topic of us moving in together and splitting the expenses. I shot that one down right quick. Plus she snores.
Clearly BD has this thing thought out, but I’m not sure his tolerance for drama is as low as mine (he still has drama, it’s just that her drama doesn’t bother him, and for me, I don’t want even that much).
Good luck bud!
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:35 am, 7th January 2018Correct, at least in many cases. Though maintaining separate spaces is not required, just recommended.
I don’t have drama per my definition of the word:
Drama – Any harsh negative actions directed from a woman to man where the man is the target of said negativity. Screaming, nagging, complaining, arguing, demands, crying “at you”, threats, ultimatums, the “silent treatment”, refusing sex because of non-medical reasons, all of these things are drama, and there are many others. Drama is not “anything negative”. Specifically, it must be harsh (sweetly lying would not be considered drama) and focused at the man (angrily complaining about her boss at work would not be considered drama). Drama is a female trait. (Men have guy-drama.)
C Lo
Posted at 09:26 pm, 8th January 2018BD,
Isn’t that what I said? I’ve read your stuff, we don’t disagree.
I don’t tolerate people in my life who sport bitch (complain for recreation). If you are bitching because you are mentally trying to work toward a solution, fine; otherwise fix it, or be quiet, or bye!
Duke Royal
Posted at 07:52 pm, 13th January 2018Thank you. Someone had to say it directly:
“On the other extreme, I have to address the societally brainwashed right-wing guys who think monogamy is fine and traditional marriage works out just great as long as you marry a Christian virgin or something. No. You idiot. No.”
Another guy looks at their girlfriend, they turn on her demanding “why is he looking at you, are you having sex with him?!?” Seriously uptight, unhappy guys.