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-By Caleb Jones
What is a shit test? The Urban Dictionary defines shit test thusly:
A test that a girl performs on a male by saying or doing something to judge the reaction or response from him.
That’s about right, if not a little incomplete. The shit test is a social device women use to determine the social fitness of a male in order to determine if he is a viable sexual option or not. As always, women don’t do this because they are bitches or evil. They do this because of 100,000 years of woefully outdated biological evolution. There’s no ill intent behind shit testing (usually) even though it feels to us guys like sometimes there is.
Here are a few random examples of shit tests:
“Are you some kind of player?”
“I have a three date rule.”
“I only date guys who…”
“I bet you say that to all the girls.”
“It turns me on when a man does housework without being asked!”
“So why are you here with me? Why do I get that honor?”
“I hate it when you…”
And so on. There are thousands of examples I could give but I think you get the point. They can occur both in the seduction/dating phase as well as during relationships (though you tend to get more during relationships, particularly in the earlier phases as she’s feeling you out).
Here’s how you avoid shit testing and/or deal with it when you get it.
1. Calibrate your EFA so that women don’t give you shit tests in the first place.
This is, by far, the most important technique in regards to shit tests. Sadly, it’s something the Pick-Up Artist community almost completely ignores. The PUAs/players are really good at explaining what to do when you get shit tests, but most of them have no idea of what I talk about, which is setting a frame and EFA from the very first second so as to minimize the odds you’ll receive shit tests in the first place. This applies both to dating and to relationship management.
I’m serious about this. Even way back when I did a lot of posting on seduction/PUA forums, I was always surprised at how much discussion there was among these guys about how to deal with shit testing. This was because I was getting laid left and right and almost never got any shit testing from women prior to Lock-In (having sex with a new woman twice).
The only time you’ll get shit tests under this model is if the woman is a Dominant or is a hardcore provider hunter. Other than that, you won’t need to worry about shit tests at all.
Strangely, it can also be an indication that your frame is too weak or beta, since a woman will know she can throw more shit tests at a man who is more likely to fail them. This applies more to relationships than it does to dating/seduction, however.
The 85/15 frame, as always, is the ideal sweet spot between these two extremes. 85% Alpha means you’re sexually attractive to her and not going to take any of her shit, but that little 15% provider frame keeps you, just barely, in her socially acceptable range of a man she could have sex with quickly without looking (or feeling) like a “slut.” Do this, and you won’t get very many shit tests from women pre-Lock-In. The only ones you’ll get are the inevitable ones after Lock-In where the ongoing relationship begins and she activates her betaization template. But those shit tests are much easier to deal with (since she’s already had sex with you a few times and is now locked-in to you to some degree).
So for the rest of this article I’m going to address how to deal with shit tests when you get them, but please focus on setting the correct EFA so that you don’t fucking get them. That’s a much better use of your time. Seriously, with the Alpha 2.0 nonmonogamous frame, I almost never get shit tests from new women I’m having sex with. It’s extremely rare. If you need more information on how to set this frame, read this book and this one.
The best way to respond to a shit test is to confidently agree with it and reframe it like it’s no big deal.
You usually fail a shit test (i.e. come of as defensive) when you disagree with it. For example,
Her: I don’t date guys who play video games all the time.
You: Oh, well, I don’t play video games all the time! I think they’re for babies!
Her: Can we just be friends?
You: But I don’t want to be friends! I want something more!
Yuck. No. Instead, when you get a shit test, you want to agree and reframe. The best example of this is Eben Pagan/David DeAngelo’s old advice of saying to shit-testing women, “Well, you’d better get used to it because I do that a lot.”
Her: I hate guys who watch sports.
You: Well you’d better get used to it because I do that a lot.
Shit test, PASSED. She will respond with mild frustration, but she’ll keep eagerly having sex with you. And remember, this frustration you see when you pass the shit test is very normal. Read this article and internalize it; it’s one of the most important articles I’ve ever written.
Here are a few more examples of agree and reframe:
Her: Can we just be friends?
You: Sure! And we can have sex occasionally too.
Her: How many girls have you had sex with?
You: Oh my god, there’s so many I lost count a long time ago.
Her: I don’t date black guys.
You: Good. We don’t need to date.
Her: I love it when a man empties the dishwasher on his own!
You: Yeah, I like that too. We should totally get a roommate in here who does that for us!
Her: Will you buy me a drink?
You: Sure. When are you free next? We can go out one-on-one and get to know each other.
You get the idea. Agree with what she’s saying, or the implication of what she’s saying (in the case of asking you how many women you’ve slept with) and then reframe the shit test into something that makes you look Alpha or something humorous (or, if you can, both).
If you have no idea how to do this, ask yourself this question: “How can I respond to this shit test in a way that makes me look confident, dominant, and valued, while not being a total asshole?”
3. Flat-out refuse if you have to, but do it nicely.
There are times where agree and reframe won’t work. In that case, you need to just flat-out refuse. But, and this is a big but, you need to do it in an Alpha Male 2.0 way with a smile on your face and a casual, happy, no-big-deal reaction, rather than the Alpha Male 1.0 way of doing it defensively, forcefully, or with a lecture.
An example where agree and reframe might not work well is this:
Her: Will you hold my purse for a second?
There’s no way you can agree with this and fully pass the shit test, even if you said something like, “Sure! Tomorrow.” That still implies you’re going to hold her purse for her at some point. You have to just say no. Just do it playfully.
Her: Will you hold my purse for a second?
Beta Male: Okay. But just for a second.
Shit test, FAILED. Attraction drops, betaization increases.
Her: Will you hold my purse for a second?
Alpha Male 1.0: No! I’m not going to hold your purse. I’m not your slave. Don’t ever ask me that again.
Shit test passed, but he’s also just damaged either the relationship (if they’re in a relationship) or he has reduced the odds he’ll ever get to sex with her (if he hasn’t had sex with her yet). Both bad. Here’s a better way:
Her: Will you hold my purse for a second?
Alpha Male 2.0: Awww, you really think I’m going to hold your purse? You’re so cute.
Shit test passed, and any damage is minimal. Again, she will show some frustration, but as that linked article above explained, that’s a good thing, since that means you’re maintaining attraction.
And again, I will say that if your EFA is strong, you won’t get these kinds of “hold my purse” shit tests from women very often. Pink Firefly, as well as every other woman I’ve ever dated in an MLTR or above relationship, knows damn well that I will never hold her purse in any scenario and she won’t even bother asking. This is because my EFA has been rock-solid Alpha 2.0 since day one.
Shit testing is a big topic and there’s more I could say about it, but above is the core. Just remember that if you’re getting regular shit tests from women, that means you have some more work to do on your EFA and frame.
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NaturalBornChiller 2018-06-25 05:28:21
This can be summarised as agree&lify and amused mastery. You only need the provider vibe if you want a relationship with the girl. They will sleep with you at least once or twice with a 100% player frame. Blackdragon, if a girl finds out I'm a doctor, do you think that will bump my provider frame above 15%?
Calahan 2018-06-25 05:29:07
Personally, I don't believe in shit tests. There is only shit thrown be women with psychological issues or spoiled ones that are used to having everything their way and treating other shit. The big question, in my opinion, is not how to handle shit tests, but whether men should tolerate them. I don't accept to play their game or prove anything about myself to them. If a woman does lots of shit "tests" to me, she should be nexted for good. Fortunately, I don't meet such women often. To occasional shit 'tests' I respond with silence or with absolute truth. If they can't handle the truth, at least I haven't got caught up in playing their stupid game.
Ash 2018-06-25 06:51:27
Do you think men ever shit test women?
Misha 2018-06-25 07:37:47
when men do it, then it's not called a shit test anymore..
Anon 2018-06-25 08:01:08
BD, I have two theories as to the shit tests, and I can't decide which one is right. Either women employ them on purpose ("this man's growing influence on me makes me uneasy; I better ask him a trick question to reassert my dominance"); or they just speak their mind, and unintentionally make some men feel defensive, which may result in attraction-shattering replies (she might blurt "I bet you say that to all the girls" because that's exactly the thought that genuinely has just entered her mind, but now if he makes a self-deprecating remark in response she can't help but feel less attracted). The unspoken assumption is that it's the former, but I actually lean towards the latter. What do you think?
CrabRangoon 2018-06-25 08:11:20
I always just swat these away with a playful/teasing response. Seems to work pretty well. And if the girl gets really pissed, congrats you just found out she's a hardcore dominant and you dodged a future bullet. As for the "hold my purse" line, what I like to do is take it from her, then immediately just lay it on the ground. It usually gets a laugh.
paternitytester 2018-06-25 08:54:08
I hold stuff for women in certain situations, for example if we're in a hurry and she needs to search for her *whatever* or pay for something, I'll do it since we're on the move and there's a real benefit out of doing it. Otherwise I don't see why can't it lay on the ground, lol.
A 2018-06-25 09:02:10
Blackdragon, I am willing to purchase one of your books, but it seems there are a lot of books with overlap. For example, why are there two books on Online dating? That implies that the first one is not comprehensive. $57 is pricey for a book, but when you have two on the same subject, how is the customer to decide which one is best to buy? Maybe if you merged the two into a 350-pager, it would not seem so pricey.
London Boy 2018-06-25 09:14:26
Another great post but I do think, when it comes to shit tests, men must take context into consideration. Not everything is a shit test. For example, take the "hold my bag" example. If my girlfriend asks me to hold her bag for a second so she can reach something easier, I am not reaffirming her attraction to me if i say "No, i am not your slave." I look immature. However, if we are just walking and she says "hold my bag" for no good reason, then yes, by all means, do as BD has said. With shit tests, you need to use a degree of common sense and maturity. There are times when a woman is shit testing you and you need to reassert your dominance and there are times where she is being genuine with you.
A 2018-06-25 09:24:33
I have a request of articles that I hope Blackdragon can write in the future (or if he already wrote something similar, link to from the archives). Blackdragon's advice on these areas would help a lot of men. This comment has to be OT, as by definition it can't be on topic for the current article : 1) "Don't waste your life practicing the wrong things" : It takes hundreds or even thousands of hours of practice to become good at skill truly worth having. Too many guys, by default, get into practicing something useless (such as commenting on websites about politics, manosphere topics, white nationalism, etc.). Instead, that same effort could be used practicing Game or something else more valuable. But it is harder to start that momentum vs. defaulting into a practice momentum of something behind a screen. Being great at Game, Salesmanship, Finance : Valuable. Being great at whipping out facts and links to win Internet debates : Useless. 2) "Easy appearance hacks" : Many men just don't know where to begin. How a man can color his hair at home on the cheap, or how to find the right hairstyle, or the importance of custom-fitted shirts (after a man becomes fit), or a primer on shoes, or something. There are articles, but a lot of men have to start even more basically. 3) "Improve your voice" : In America, too many men have a high-pitched voice to a degree you don't find in other countries. American TV and radio commercials almost deliberately seem to select for a faggy voice. Some might have a nasaly voice. How to improve one's voice so that it becomes second nature and they no longer have to think about it, is good. 4) You have written in the past about how if a man does not have sex for a long time, his d**k may not work properly when the time arrives. A more detailed examination of this subject, with solutions, might be useful. It is more than just V**ra or C**lis, there might be a loss of sensitivity. Plus, what if the feel of a condom is so bad that the man just can't stand it, to the extent of not wanting to have sex? What are his solutions? 5) "What to do if you just have no talent for an area that is important in life". What if you just have no talent for key aspects of Game? Or for job interviews? Or for keeping your place clean? Or for cooking? Or for speaking without stuttering? What is easy for some men is extremely difficult for others. How can they best mitigate these shortfalls? 6) "Why it is not productive to default into White Na*****lism (or any other race identity)" : I notice that once exposed to the red pill, a lot of guys find it too difficult to bear and default into the minimally true but far easier path about whining about 'whites are being replaced', etc. and abandoning any effort at self-improvement. An examination of this, and why this is best avoided if one wants to bring happiness to their own lives, would be good. ________________________________ That is it for now. I hope this is some food for thought.
John 2018-06-25 09:30:14
Tried denying the whole player shit test but I eventually learned that some of these shit tests come in handy later. So yes, agreeing is the best course of action. Like the player shit test. Play that card right and it can come handy in a lot different situations later on. For example, I'm never going to have a woman tell me do something or she will deny me sex. Not since I've been married has a woman done that to me. And the women make an effort to come to me for sex, they're always on top of their game, and very enthusiastically turned on. Part of that is the thought in the back of their head that I seem like a player.
Blackdragon 2018-06-25 10:45:20
Blackdragon, if a girl finds out I’m a doctor, do you think that will bump my provider frame above 15%?Your level of provider frame is (mostly) up to you and your behaviors, not your profession.
Do you think men ever shit test women?No. At least not in the same way. We have different biology. Men don't want to test to see if you're worthy; men simply want to believe you're worthy already and don't want to do anything that might demonstrate you're not.
Either women employ them on purpose (“this man’s growing influence on me makes me uneasy; I better ask him a trick question to reassert my dominance”); or they just speak their mind, and unintentionally make some men feel defensive, which may result in attraction-shattering replies (she might blurt “I bet you say that to all the girls” because that’s exactly the thought that genuinely has just entered her mind, but now if he makes a self-deprecating remark in response she can’t help but feel less attracted).Women do both, but most of the time it's the latter.
I am willing to purchase one of your books, but it seems there are a lot of books with overlap. For example, why are there two books on Online dating? That implies that the first one is not comprehensiveYou're looking at an outdated page, which is my fault. I'm in the process of updating that page right now. Ignore that page and go here instead: www.alphamale20.net I'm in the process of going through all of my pages and updating them, but I have a lot of websites so it's taking a while.
Another great post but I do think, when it comes to shit tests, men must take context into consideration. Not everything is a shit test. For example, take the “hold my bag” example. If my girlfriend asks me to hold her bag for a second so she can reach something easier, I am not reaffirming her attraction to me if i say “No, i am not your slave.”Disagree. 1. We're talking about a purse, not a generic "bag." I'll hold a shopping bag for her; that's fine and often I'll even volunteer to do that. But her purse? No. 2. "Hold my purse for a second." Who would hold her purse if you weren't there and she was alone? Seriously, stop and answer that question. 3. I already said you should not say something like "No, I am not your slave."
A 2018-06-25 12:29:37
You’re looking at an outdated page, which is my fault. I’m in the process of updating that page right now. Ignore that page and go here instead: http://www.alphamale20.netOh, ok. That makes sense. There is only one book devoted to Online Dating, from this new link, and thus I interpret that as the one book being comprehensive.
Chili 2018-06-25 13:31:16
I'm not sold on shit tests being part of women's biology, otherwise I would expect men to be hardwired to pass shit tests in the same way women are hard-wired to give them. Are men born with the ability to knock away shit tests but are taught the wrong response? What causes men to fail so often if it's ingrained biology, or why do men lack a way to fulfill a biological need of women if it isn't?
blueguitar 2018-06-25 13:56:55
What about (not everytime but once in a while): Her: Will you hold my purse for a second? Sure, that'll be $50/minute cash upfront haha... Her: OMG! Those shoes are amazing! Let's go shopping here for just a little bit! Ya, awesome, I can be your personal shopper, you're so cool I'll give you a discount, just $200/hour haha ...
Blackdragon 2018-06-25 14:13:27
I’m not sold on shit tests being part of women’s biologyWhenever I talk about shit testing (and similar) I get a one or two guys saying that. I'm not an anthropologist / evolutionary psychologist and neither are you, so we really don't know. It's irrelevant anyway.
What about (not everytime but once in a while): Her: Will you hold my purse for a second? Sure, that’ll be $50/minute cash upfront haha…It's okay but it's a little too indirect for my tastes. What if she just answers, "Okay I'll give you $50 later" and then shoves the purse into your hands?
Anon 2018-06-25 14:15:34
What causes men to fail so often if it’s ingrained biologySex itself is ingrained biology, but there's an entire layer of social norms on top of it. I think, and BD concurs above, that it's not performing shit tests that's ingrained, but rather losing attraction as a result of a wrong answer. As for why men have become less manly around women, I attribute this to centuries of fathers inflating the value of chastity in order to marry off their daughters.
$200/hourYou don't want any finances to enter the relationship in her mind lest she start thinking her pussy is worth something, or some other nonsense like that. As for specific examples given, she well knows she's asking you to do a non-manly thing, she fully expects you to refuse! Thus "Nah" is all the situation warrants.
Anon 2018-06-25 15:47:55
A yet another unspoken assumption is that women are somehow "evil", that day and night they exercise their cunning to "trip" you somehow, and you have to "win" the "fight". They root for you! The moment you appear on the horizon, they think "This guy better be unlike the rest". They ask you for something without thinking it through, and before you reply, they already think "He better not agree to this". You reject something without comment, they will make up an excuse for you! They ask you why you did or didn't do something, you just shrug, and they invent a plausible reason (which can tell you much about their thinking). An interesting thing is that women seem to be more capable of self-delusion than men. But I'm not really close with that many men so I might be biased. But multiple times did women invent an excuse for my actions when I hadn't bothered to produce any, and seemed to stick to their own invention.
Vanilla Boy 2018-06-25 15:59:58
Seems like this one could be summarized in a simple sentence: Don't buy into the drama.
Vanilla Boy 2018-06-25 16:21:34
I'm just thinking about that a bit more. Reflecting on married life in a previous incarnation, a Dominant / Alpha 1.0 mismatch. A common shit test might take the form of leaving a social gathering, saying our goodbyes as a couple - and then her all of a sudden finding fascinating topics of conversation with friends on the way out the door. I made myself unpopular in that social group by telling the woman, calmly and without any expression of annoyance, that when the minute hand reached 10, I was leaving. Which I did, alone, on a few occasions. Shit tests are sometimes done like a child having a tantrum in a shopping center to get an ice cream. It can be very manipulative. You may have to deal with nasty looks from people around you if you stay firm. PS I think this is why I now keep a cat. Just in case I ever get a feeling that I miss someone trying to play dominance games.
Jokah Macpherson 2018-06-25 19:14:49
That's very interesting that you don't get shit tested very often. That's definitely plausible though since you're not exactly running an RSD-style game out at the club. My general advice on passing shit tests is similar to my advice on most forms of communication; don't try to be too clever. While a perfectly executed, verbally dextrous response might make for a great story later on, you can get the same results with simple agreement, or even my go-to favorite when I get caught off-guard: a dismissive, "OK." "I hate guys who play video games all the time." "OK." <Carry on like nothing happened>
Jokah Macpherson 2018-06-25 19:19:23
Also, I think one reason the PUA's are big on shit tests is that they're a signal you are getting somewhere. If a girl is totally ignoring you there's not much chance she's going to sleep with you, but if she is shit testing you, then that possibility is on her mind, at least at a subconscious level, and she's trying to find a reason to rule you out...and if you don't give her the reason, then you're halfway there.
Blackdragon 2018-06-25 19:34:03
That’s very interesting that you don’t get shit tested very often. That’s definitely plausible though since you’re not exactly running an RSD-style game out at the club.True and good point. My game style doesn't smack up against a woman's ASD like typical PUA game does.
Also, I think one reason the PUA’s are big on shit tests is that they’re a signal you are getting somewhereAlso a good point; true, at least in those kinds of PUA scenarios.
Vaquero357 2018-06-25 20:43:58
PS I think this is why I now keep a cat. Just in case I ever get a feeling that I miss someone trying to play dominance games.Heh, me too. The cat gives you a lot of the manipulation you'll get from women, only its repertoire is smaller - and predictable. Plus, it's always happy to see me when I get home and NEVER greets me with, "We need to talk about where this relationship is going." Plus, a cat teaches you how NOT to give in to begging, whining, pleading, pouting, or any of the other methods women have for getting what they want in the moment. If you find yourself giving in to a cat....a woman will grind you into hamburger.
Vanilla Boy 2018-06-25 22:04:11
Hehehe. No, I don't agree. I'm a pussy with my cat.
Dan 2018-06-25 22:39:35
Hey BD, Do you think women are aware when they shit test?
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-06-25 23:23:21
Do you guys think there are other forms of shit-testing, except the verbal ones that BD mentioned? I think some of them are behavioral (purposely ignoring my text for a few hours/a day), and some can be even indirect (trying to make me jelaous using social media). What do you guys do when that happens? Is the answer "just follow all the usual rules", or are there some other countermeasures that you apply in those situations?
Vanilla Boy 2018-06-25 23:37:51
@Tony, if she can wind you up by ignoring your texts, she's got you by the short and curlies.
The Lord Humungus 2018-06-25 23:57:33
1. We’re talking about a purse, not a generic “bag.” I’ll hold a shopping bag for her; that’s fine and often I’ll even volunteer to do that. But her purse? No. 2. “Hold my purse for a second.” Who would hold her purse if you weren’t there and she was alone? Seriously, stop and answer that question. 3. I already said you should not say something like “No, I am not your slave.”I agree with not holding purses, but your argument here isn't sound. Who would hold the shopping bag if you weren't there? That's something that you said you would do, and there still wouldn't be anybody there to hold it if you weren't, so why does that matter? Purse or shopping bag, there wouldn't be somebody there either way, so that is irrelevant. I don't hold purses simply because it makes you look like a total loser schlub standing there like a dork holding her purse while she does whatever, and most likely subconsciously lowers your status in her mind AND in your own. That said, there are always exceptions. I can't think of any, but I can imagine there are some situations where absolutely refusing to touch her purse for even 5 seconds would just come across as weird and autistic, like you have some sort of bizarre hangup.
naattori21 2018-06-26 01:17:00
It's easy to agree with you that you can avoid most of the shittests by strong right kind of EFA. When I got to intermediate level I always wondered why I'm not getting shittested (PUAs say that shittests are good because it tells you that the girl is interested). Even tho I got only mild shittests and half of the time no shittests at all - I still got laid. I guess my EFA was accidentally 85-15 right from the beginning. Only recently I've been getting more hardcore level shittesting when I'm a bit more advanced in pickup. I think I've tipped from 85-15 to 100% player/alpha EFA because now I can blast witty jokes and stories verbally non stop. I guess I gotta transfer back to more chilled kind of game. The lines below can be comfort shittests too. They happen when your value is high but the comfort is low. You shouldn't pass these by blasting more alpha-style value - instead go more comfort style of passing then. “Are you some kind of player?” “I bet you say that to all the girls.” “So why are you here with me? Why do I get that honor?”
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-06-26 01:43:16
@Vanilla Notwithstanding my reaction, I would still argue it is a form of shit-test. And I guess in those odd cases OI is the best solution (maybe to all forms of shit-tests).
Guren 2018-06-26 02:39:48
What's your response to "I have a 3/4/5/x date rule"??
Vincent 2018-06-26 05:04:18
What’s your response to “I have a 3/4/5/x date rule”??"Wait you do this so often that you made specific rules for it? I haven't given it that much thought."
Vanilla Boy 2018-06-26 05:19:14
My line is to look mock horrified and say: "At LEAST five dates! I don't want you to think I'm cheap and easy!"
johnnybegood 2018-06-26 07:29:30
More gold BD. I have gaping holes in my game, but this is one thing I do well. And I also never think about "shit tests" because they just seldom happen to me or don't seem like a big deal. They're one of those things where once you learn how to respond, it becomes natural. You don't even need to think about it. Two guiding principles as you sort of referenced are this: Nonreactivity, generally (a good principle in general for the alpha male). You are nonplussed by being asked to hold her purse, for instance. No of course you won't do it, but you aren't "peturbed" by it. The unexpected answer. Or "rapport breaking." If you ever take improv/ comedy classes, usually this can often be ingrained. Basically, you're fucking with people and don't care. You DON'T agree or try to make awkwardness "go away". It's funny how far you can take rapport breaking. I mentioned I was in Russia recently, most girls there are easily-sexed models seemingly. HOWEVER, there are a few (obvious) honeypots looking to run a bar-scam on you, and it's hilarious how much rapport-breaking you can do. "Do you want to go to a bar with me" "No. You are Russian spy" "Hehe What? You don't want to go to [scam bar] with me?" "No. I prefer [dance club]" "Ooh I hate that place!" "That's a shame. Bye" "Wtf? You don't like me? Are you on drugs?" "A few" "Wtf" "Bye Red Sparrow" Okay obvious you wouldn't break rapport that hard with a girl you actually wanted to get along with, but still hilarious nonetheless. Expending effort to really "maintain rapport" or reduce friction is a form of supplication. But yeah shit tests? Nonreactivity and rapport breaking are usually the guiding principles.
hollywood 2018-06-26 07:38:54
TonyOutOfNowhere says June 25, 2018 at 11:23 pm Do you guys think there are other forms of shit-testing, except the verbal ones that BD mentioned? I think some of them are behavioral (purposely ignoring my text for a few hours/a day), and some can be even indirect (trying to make me jelaous using social media). What do you guys do when that happens? Is the answer “just follow all the usual rules”, or are there some other countermeasures that you apply in those situations?In my opinion you can't ever get bothered by her ignoring your text, and especially cannot show that you were ever. I usually stick with a general rule of waiting just a little longer than she did to answer me back. If that's a day, I'll answer her back a day later, and slightly later in the day. If she takes 15 minutes to answer me, I'll answer her back 16 or more minutes later.
hollywood 2018-06-26 07:50:02
It seems as though "hold my purse" is like the ultimate classic shit test and I must admit I just failed it. I just completed a weekend with a WD and when we got back to her place once, as she was unlocking her door, she asked me to hold it for her and I just held it til she got the door open and handed it back to her. Dammit. I didn't even recognize that as a shit test. However, the night before, we were out at the clubs and a gay guy came up and told her she was beautiful then asked me if she was my girlfriend. I told him she's a single lady and she isn't my lady. He asked if I was sure, then asked her if he could kiss her. She made out with him real quick and he walked away. I honestly didn't give a shit, so I just smiled and we kept going. She told me something to the effect of "You didn't really care that he did that?" I said, "Nah, have you dated guys that would be pissed if you kissed a gay guy in front of them?" She's like "I don't think he was actually gay, but yes a lot of guys would be." I said, "Regardless, I know you're with me, not him." She's like, "Exactly! You know who I'm going home with tonight." So to me that was a major shit test that I passed, but I completely failed the purse test. (She also admitted later on that she actually thought the guy was gay too). If you happen to fail an obvious shit test like I did, is your frame now permanently damaged? I'd like to feel I was Alpha enough most of the time that failing one shouldn't matter that much as long as I don't let it keep happening.
greg g 2018-06-26 07:51:53
The AT&T chick can shit test me anytime.
Blackdragon 2018-06-26 09:49:28
Do you think women are aware when they shit test?I already answered that in this thread.
I think some of them are behavioral (purposely ignoring my text for a few hours/a day), and some can be even indirect (trying to make me jelaous using social media).Yeah Vanilla and Hollywood are correct; you shouldn't care at all about any of those things. Ideally you should barely even notice they're happening.
I agree with not holding purses, but your argument here isn’t sound. Who would hold the shopping bag if you weren’t there? That’s something that you said you would do, and there still wouldn’t be anybody there to hold it if you weren’t, so why does that matter?1. Because one is a feminine symbol of betaization and emasculation and one is not. 2. Because there's a distinct difference between me offering to hold the shopping bag and her asking me to hold her purse.
I don’t hold purses simply because it makes you look like a total loser schlub standing there like a dork holding her purse while she does whatever, and most likely subconsciously lowers your status in her mind AND in your own.I don't care at all about the former because I'm outcome independent, but the latter is the issue, yes.
That said, there are always exceptions. I can’t think of any1. As usual, using an exception to the rule to back up your argument proves the validity of mine. 2. The fact you can't think of any examples of your argument should tell you something.
Anon 2018-06-26 10:01:41
What's the deal with the purse-holding anyway? Is it really such a big thing?
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-06-26 10:56:57
So BD, That's what you meant with the first technique (having an EFA that negates all the shit-testing)? You have a mindset where you don't even realize that you are being tested and yet you still pass it with flying colors, just unconsciously?
Blackdragon 2018-06-26 11:59:42
What’s the deal with the purse-holding anyway? Is it really such a big thing?All by itself? No. It's not a small thing, but it's certainly not a big thing either. But EFA is made up of 87 different "not big things" that all add up. As a human being and not a robot, if you blow it on the purse thing, you're definitely blowing it on on other things. There goes your EFA.
That’s what you meant with the first technique (having an EFA that negates all the shit-testing)? You have a mindset where you don’t even realize that you are being tested and yet you still pass it with flying colors, just unconsciously?Not exactly. I meant that if a woman "doesn't text you back in a few hours," you shouldn't even notice she hasn't texted you back because you're too busy working on your goals, Mission, and/or other women. Women "don't text me back in a few hours" or even days, all the time, and I rarely even notice. I have too many women in my life and too many exciting things going on to care.
The Lord Humungus 2018-06-26 12:21:35
I don’t care at all about the former because I’m outcome independent, but the latter is the issue, yes. Not wanting to look like an average schlub has nothing to do with outcome independence. It goes back to the "real men don't care what they look like" trope that Tanner Guzy and others have already destroyed. I wouldn't want to be seen in public fat, or unkempt, or wearing cargo shorts, goofy Seinfeld sneakers and a dumpy t-shirt either, but none of that has anything to do with outcome independence. Now if I was forced to venture out into public wearing something like that for whatever reason, looking shitty wouldn't affect my self image or frame. THAT is outcome independence. But not wanting to look like a loser slob does not demonstrate a lack of outcome independence.
johnnybegood 2018-06-26 13:29:38
Holding a purse is a just a small, but at the same visceral, archetypal example of a woman saying "lick my boots" or "supplicate to the magic pussy" - even if subconscious in her mind. Of course there are exceptions. If she's a sharpshooter and you're stuck in Mosul, Iraq while she needs to quickly gun down some terrorist with an AK-47 & the purse is holding valuable ammo and survival products, then yes, hold the purse. In most cases though - don't.
Antekirtt 2018-06-26 14:00:38
Are men born with the ability to knock away shit tests but are taught the wrong response? What causes men to fail so often if it’s ingrained biology, or why do men lack a way to fulfill a biological need of women if it isn’t?Hardwired doesn't mean everyone can pass it. It the opposite actually: we are not hardwired to be compatible with each other or to live in harmony, and we are not hardwired to correctly respond to what others do. But some can have innate predispositions to do things right, those we sometimes call "naturals". If everything was fine-tuned, there'd be no natural selection, and the next mutation would create a new imbalance and get natural selection going again. This is part of the reason people fall for the naturalistic fallacy so easily: they assume you'll be happy if you do everything that's natural. We are not programmed for happiness, and men and women are not programmed to "get" each other or like each other. There is a scattered lottery of winning formulas among the population, that's all. You don't "follow" biology, you investigate it and hack it.
david 2018-06-26 14:14:03
The most common shit test that I fall for is when a woman acts like she wants to have a discussion about anything, period! She doesnt. She's not going to listen or do shit other than tell you that "you don't understand." Another one is when she says "i'm sad" or "i'm confused." don't fall for it. Just tell her everything will get better and change the subject. I'm a very logical person, a great instructor, and great communicator. This does not help with women. She'll blame you for the way she feels if you try to talk her out of it. If you want to have an intellectual discussion or debate with your male friends (which is becoming difficult in today's society) then that's where you get your intellectual needs met. A woman will only judge you and lose respect for you if she thinks you don't have strong values. When i learned this, and started categorizing my conversations, my dating life got a lot less stressful. Different people can fill different needs.
Mhci 2018-06-26 16:38:47
@Dan Very loosely aware — as is the rule for them, but not entirely unaware. Allow for some person-by-person variance, but the average awareness is very low (and not only about "shit tests". Awareness of what they lime and dislike, for example, is usually minimal).
Blackdragon 2018-06-26 16:51:11
I wouldn’t want to be seen in public fat, or unkempt, or wearing cargo shorts, goofy Seinfeld sneakers and a dumpy t-shirt either, but none of that has anything to do with outcome independence.Completely disagree. When I go out to run errands or go get groceries or something, sometimes I look dumpy as shit, pretty much as you described. I don't care how I look unless I have a specific reason to look good (first date, important business meeting, etc) because I don't give a shit. I'm outcome independent. I'm not saying I always look like shit when I go out, but often I do. Don't care.
Vanilla Boy 2018-06-26 19:57:46
@david, that's just a basic male-female divide. Men like to discuss things to work out solutions, women like to express their feelings. When men and women talk, women get frustrated when you make suggestions about how they could fix their problem, they just want you to listen and be sympathetic. It's not that hard, I don't mind listening. "Hmm, yes", "Hmm, no", (pat on hand). What's so difficult? If it's about you and your shortcomings, it's not so much fun, but you can do the same thing to some extent.
Leon 2018-06-27 02:54:38
I never understand the purse shit-test (never got one). Basically, she just gives you her purse and tells you to keep it out of nowhere? or it's always in some context (like she's unlocking the door in someone's example above)? If it's for no good reason, of course, we don't take it. I guess this is common sense. If it's for a good reason but you refuse to do it, how do you deal with the weirdness when she's struggled to do something while holding her purse, meanwhile you stand there looking, hands-free? Btw, how do you deal with the shit-test when she suddenly acts nonchanlant and disinterest (after showing that she's attracted to you)? I get this sometimes. The general advise is ''never answer a push with a pull''. However, if she pushes and we push too, it's likely the end, especially when she hasn't invested much.
K 2018-06-27 03:27:06
I never understand the purse shit-test (never got one). Basically, she just gives you her purse and tells you to keep it out of nowhere? or it’s always in some context (like she’s unlocking the door in someone’s example above)? If it’s for no good reason, of course, we don’t take it. I guess this is common sense.Finally someone reasonable. Thank you.
hollywood 2018-06-27 06:50:00
If it’s for a good reason but you refuse to do it, how do you deal with the weirdness when she’s struggled to do something while holding her purse, meanwhile you stand there looking, hands-free?While the example you mentioned was my shit-test failure, I know how I will handle the same situation next time. Her: Hold this a minute so I can unlock the door, (hands purse my way) Me: (Clearly refusing to reach for her purse) Yeah right, how do you open your door when you arrive here alone? However, in that situation she didn't actually need anyone to hold her purse. In a situation where she really had no choice but to drop her purse or hand it over, I'm not sure, but I'm going to do my best not to take it no matter what from now on.
Von 2018-06-27 07:03:50
Your definition could do with an improvement. The shit test is social device women, consciously or subconsciously; use to determine the social fitness of a male in order to determine his sexual viability. That little change will clear up a lot of confusion for people who don't look too deeply into the subject and want to reject it. The rest of the change is just cleaning up the word clutter. It could still be better but that'll do for now. I once heard a traditional style of job interviewing in Japan is basically hurling a bunch of insults and degradation towards the interviewee to determine their character and confidence. There is a bunch of subtle shit tests in modern interviews, too for anyone that pays attention. Interesting stuff… There's good reason why men don't shit test subconsciously. Just a guess of mine that I wrote before, I'll just paste it here: If we look at the IQ disparity between men and women, this is the only way I can make sense of it. You talked about optimizing a system with the trial and error method in your online dating book. You take a part of that system, change it, put it back in, test out the whole system and see if that change was beneficial or detrimental. The wrong way to do it is to change a bunch of parts at once and then test it out. That way, you have no idea what change brought about the net benefit or detriment. That's what I think is up with men and women. Men are these wildly erratic, unstable, risk-taking and ambitious motherfuckers. And women are the comparatively stable element that mostly opt for safety over risk and are more influenced by herd mentality because of that reason (They have to be safe to raise children and that’s why they are usually fighting/nagging against the father's ambitious risky behavior). Evolution kinda specialized us that way to effectively weed out the weak mutations and reward the strong ones. Evolution has no consciousness to make educated guesses so trial and error is all it's got. IQ is but a facet to this disparity between men and women but a pretty big facet as it's the number one predictor of success. Men generally don't care about their partners' confidence as much as women do. We pay more attention to signs of fertility and beauty, submissiveness to go along with male leadership and feminine empathy and kindness that makes for a good mother. IN CONCLUSION, We don't need to shit test women. Their appearance is obvious and the other traits are easily revealed through her behavior and can't be revealed through a shit test anyway. For example, whenever a masculine man sees a woman acting delicately, they feel lustful towards her. That is our brain signaling to us that she would be a good mother because a delicate person is more sensitive to a baby's vulnerabilities rather than the crude toughness of a masculine man. Therefore, the shit tests that men throw at women are almost entirely deliberate and intentional, in other words screening. The shit tests men throw other men however are can be a mix of deliberate and unintentional devices. They can come in the form of offensive jokes from masculine men to determine if they can count on other men's strength in a tough situation. Furthermore, it can escalate to all out bullying if they determine them to be weak, with the purpose of either toughening them up or eliminating them from the gene pool. That's right; there is natural selection even within a species.
George Allen 2018-06-27 08:25:45
At what point does holding onto something like a purse stop being a shit test and is instead just a dick move? E.g. She's carrying a few things and she's going to drop something. Also how do you handle carrying something such as groceries?
johnnybegood 2018-06-27 08:34:16
I never understand the purse shit-test (never got one). Basically, she just gives you her purse and tells you to keep it out of nowhere? or it’s always in some context (like she’s unlocking the door in someone’s example above)? If it’s for no good reason, of course, we don’t take it. I guess this is common sense.Oh I've gotten it a few times. Always ended up fucking the woman later, to some extent some of this bullshit is a good sign; it means she's at least somewhat invested/ interested. I see what you're saying but you're thinking too logically. It's not about getting the task done or logical reasoning. I think this is just one specific example being hung up on but nonetheless. Usually she'll be foraging or needing to do something she can easily do herself - or sometimes leaving for the restroom or some other bullshit.
If it’s for a good reason but you refuse to do it, how do you deal with the weirdnessDude --- this is very minor 'weirdness' and if you really want to do well with women, you need to learn to RELISH the weirdness. LOVE weird awkward bullshit (and don't be phased by it) because if you want to break rapport, give her shit, have social freedom/ cockiness/ and some balls, you need to "Not Give a Fuck" to an extent. The guy constantly 'smoothing things over' is a supplicating pussy. Why doesn't SHE try to smooth things over? Let her do that if she wants. The same is true in business and negotiation. Are you the guy that wants to always fill the awkward silence? Then you're going to have some problems. Stop giving a shit. Girls have called me 'weird' many times, often because I'm nonreactive and am not the typical pussy-worshipping beta male saying "you're so beautiful" over and over again. And usually later are naked in my bed. I know I'm going on a tangent here but this is also a good indicator of how experienced/ cosmopolitan a girl is. For example if you're wearing an earring and she thinks THAT's weird (practically nothing) -- you know she's had a pretty sheltered life. I know that's not the same as awkward situations, but yeah.
Blackdragon 2018-06-27 09:58:02
If it’s for a good reason but you refuse to do it, how do you deal with the weirdness when she’s struggled to do something while holding her purse, meanwhile you stand there looking, hands-free?and
At what point does holding onto something like a purse stop being a shit test and is instead just a dick move?I am amazed (and somewhat saddened) that so many of you are that concerned about this. Since so many of you are bringing up the same concern I will make a separate blog post about this. Though I have a strong feeling you "OMG what if she thinks I'm being a dick???" guys are going to hate it. If you're that concerned a woman you're dating might think you're being a "dick" for a few seconds, you're not Alpha. You're still in beta-zone.
Her: Hold this a minute so I can unlock the door, (hands purse my way) Me: (Clearly refusing to reach for her purse) Yeah right, how do you open your door when you arrive here alone?Exactly. If you weren't there, she would have looped the handle over her arm, or she should have placed it on the ground for a few seconds, or whatever, and she wouldn't have given it a second thought. The only reason she's asking you hold her purse, in addition to betaiztion/emasculation, is because you're there. If you weren't there, she would have no problem whatsoever. But I'll write a separate article about this going though all the points and questions raised in this thread.
CTV 2018-06-27 10:31:45
Caleb I think what these fellas ain't seeing is this and you're right to say we need another article for this. I think the primary difference with this whole purse is her asking you and expecting you to just do it is the Betaization.. Versus if you see he needing help and offer it on your own much the same way how if you get divorced YOU should be the one deciding how much assistance they may need to get on their feet. Scenario 1 : I'm out with a VYW who's barley old enough to drink/has as fake ID and hasn't learned to handle her alcohol. So when she's too fucked up I grab her purse on my own so we can carry her to the car. Scenario 2 : Some mouthy stupid bitch I wasn't even dating Snapped at me to grab her purse and expected me to (Yes this really happened). Needless to say I didn't and was mortified. Holding a purse is undignified either way, that's a given. However does everyone see the difference between Scenario 1 and Scenario 2??
Vaquero357 2018-06-27 10:35:50
If you want to have an intellectual discussion or debate with your male friends (which is becoming difficult in today’s society) then that’s where you get your intellectual needs met.The HUGE lesson it took me 25 years to learn. I'm an intellectual guy - I like to analyze, evaluate, critique, compare/contrast, and debate stuff. For years I was searching for the HB who could be part of that part of my life. But it turns out that's Guy Brain stuff. Even most highly intelligent women aren’t really into that. They can manage extended Guy Brain thinking, say, on their jobs, but it's a struggle. Once, they’re off the clock, they gotta talk Chick stuff. Even worse, a high IQ woman is better equipped to come up with more elaborate shit tests. Anyway, Vaquero's big life lesson is that the intellectual side of my life goes on in my head, with my family, and with guy friends. The Woman Side is primarily for other things.
Leon 2018-06-27 10:49:14
I am amazed (and somewhat saddened) that so many of you are that concerned about this. Since so many of you are bringing up the same concern I will make a separate blog post about this. Though I have a strong feeling you “OMG what if she thinks I’m being a dick???” guys are going to hate it. If you’re that concerned a woman you’re dating might think you’re being a “dick” for a few seconds, you’re not Alpha. You’re still in beta-zone.Great, I will look forward to it. Just to make it clear so you address the problem properly in your upcoming article: I don't give half a fuck about what she thinks about me, I also know very well that breaking rapport and being a dick sometimes can sky-rocket women's attraction. The true question here is: is awkwardly refusing to hold the purse, when there's a good reason to do so, really positively affect her attraction to you? I don't believe so. Probably in nightclub environment where thing moves fast, it might be a significant shit-test thrown out by women with spiked ASD. However, in normal date/relationship, your EFA and masculinity have time to project more clearly and I believe minor shit-test like that (if it's one) doesn't mean much nor do any harm, as long as you take it comfortably, with confidence. That's why I don't care about ''passing it'' (the minutiae) and have no problem doing such thing. Isn't that the definition of Outcome Independence?
joelsuf 2018-06-27 10:58:16
Chick: Will you hold my purse for a second?My answer to this has always been "maybe," "possibly," or "I'll think about it" in a teasing manner. Then after they ask a few more times, I'll hold/watch the purse. That's an outcome independent way of handling that "shit test." Although I do agree with the "how do you get the door when you're alone then?" You gotta do what's close to your core personality. I like joshing and teasing people I hang out with, so I tend to just stick to that. In my experience, you can do as much beta stuff as necessary around chicks, as long as you aren't a complete pushover about it. Its thirsty fuckbois (alpha 1s) and needy nice boys (betas) that chicks can't stand, just because they are so outcome dependent. Outcome independence isn't a set of actions, its more a lifestyle.
Do you think men ever shit test women?Can't speak for any of the other readers of this blog, but I do. And quite a bit. I use the exact phrases that chicks do when they "shit test" guys. When things are getting intense, I'll make a move but then back off. If she starts making moves in response, then she passed my shit test and I then know that she wants to get more physical. Then we usually fool around or have sex. If nothing happens, its over. We'll continue our date, then I'll stop talking to her. Guys need to know how to shit test chicks. Its one of the first steps to outcome independence and in this crazy #metoo era where a chick can just say that any dude sexually assaulted her just because he was laying things on too thick, being too aggressive, or being too needy, its gonna be necessary. Letting the chick make most of the moves is what you want.
Leon 2018-06-27 11:20:49
I think the primary difference with this whole purse is her asking you and expecting you to just do it is the Betaization.. Versus if you see he needing help and offer it on your own much the same way how if you get divorced YOU should be the one deciding how much assistance they may need to get on their feet.It's still you who make the decision. She makes a request -> you assess the situation -> if it looks like a shit-test -> you refuse to take it. -> if it looks like she really needs your help -> you take it with confidence, may as well throw in a joke. As everything seduction-wise, it's not what you do, it's how you do it. I can't help but think about an analogy between this and a girl who is sooo attracted but refuses sex due to some kind of weird sexual hang-ups. (you know she needs some help, but you don't because you fear that she might think you are pussy).
Blackdragon 2018-06-27 11:36:15
The true question here is: is awkwardly refusing to hold the purseWho said "awkwardly?" I said confidently and without anger.
when there’s a good reason to do so,There is no good reason, which is exactly why one of the guys above trying to make the same point you are admitted he couldn't think of one. Any "good reason" you can come up with is a scenario she created because you were there, that she would have not created if she was alone.
really positively affect her attraction to you?I don't know if it will go up, but I know it won't go down. If you hold her purse "for a second" like an emasculated beta, it will go down, at least a tiny bit. As I've said many times, her biology doesn't care about your feelings regarding the "reasons" you choose to engage in beta behaviors. Again, I'm only talking about her purse here, not some other generic shopping bag like when you're both getting groceries. That's completely different. I will explain this when I write that article.
johnnybegood 2018-06-27 12:35:04
I think BD said it all but
The true question here is: is awkwardly refusing to hold the purse, when there’s a good reason to do so, really positively affect her attraction to you?In a way, yes, because if you held it, you're now a bitch. I mean ... objectively, who cares, but that would be the knee-slap social perception. If I turned the corner and saw a girl and a man (boyfriend/husband/whoever) holding her purse, I would know said woman has said man's balls in said purse. Period. End of story. The woman knows this as well, they are usually even more intuitive/ symbol-reading than men. I'm not one for hyper-masculinity or caring what 'male norms' or what people think. But life is a theater, in a way. And if you're holding a purse, you look like a baby-back beta bitch. Women dry up at the sight.
Cherie86 2018-06-27 12:47:31
Not to keep harping on this seemingly difficult to understand concept of the "purse hold" and shit tests, but I figured I would share my experience on this. I recall during the 1st year of our MLTR phase, we were out shopping for some home items (him being a newly single bachelor and all), headed out of the store when I needed to make a bathroom stop. I had my big purse on one side, 2 or 3 shopping bags in the other hand, etc. I think he had a coffee he was working on downing. Without any conscious thought or ulterior motives, I said "Babe, can you hold this stuff while I run and pee real quick?" I got an immediate, "I don't know who you think I am" look with a raised eyebrow and a response of, "No, but you can set it on the floor right here and I will watch it." I laughed and said, "I didn't mean ACTUALLY hold it, but I don't want my purse to get dirty, could you just hold that for me?" "No, I cannot. You can leave it here or take it with you, and I will watch the bags." So I shook my head a little, understanding the emphasis now, and guess who carried her purse to the bathroom....
Johnny Caustic 2018-06-27 15:30:07
I was a regular reader of alt.seduction.fast (for all you young'uns, that's a UseNet group...uh, never mind) when the term "shit test" first cropped up. I was surprised then that the term caught on (and wasn't replaced by some other term like "alpha test" or "confidence test"), though in retrospect "shit test" captures the feeling of the concept very well. So after seeing this fine post of yours, I checked the origins of the term (thanks, Google Groups). To my surprise, Google suggests that "shit test" was introduced by "Outfoxing the Foxes" (email@example.com), aka Ray Gordon, a mentally unstable denizen of alt.seduction.fast who probably rarely left his mother's basement but nevertheless sold a seduction manual entitled "Outfoxing the Foxes". Ray was like a satanic parody of Blackdragon, with just enough real seduction knowledge to occasionally conceal what a pathetic incel he was. The first use of "shit test" I can find is in a Ray Gordon post dated April 17, 1999 in response to a post entitled "A hard case to crack...". He used the term in several subsequent posts before others started to use it. But the first proper discussion I can find of the concept itself is in a post dated May 29, 2000 by poster ALPHAHOT1 (firstname.lastname@example.org) entitled "SEDUCTION TRENDS: Why Women Test Guys". This post didn't actually use the term "shit test" (he originally called them "jack-ass tests"), but ALPHAHOT1 reposted it a year later with an added note, "The Original `Shit-Test' Post". I think it holds up well; Google has it archived here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.seduction.fast/IrDeZDBPiuE/vdGc7WtFjawJ I hope you don't mind the nerdly excursion into seduction terminology history, but I think it's interesting how well the term has held up after 19 years.
joelsuf 2018-06-27 21:11:47
Ray Gordon, a mentally unstable denizen of alt.seduction.fast who probably rarely left his mother’s basement but nevertheless sold a seduction manual entitled “Outfoxing the Foxes”.I remember Gordon. He made a channel in 2010 or so dissing RSD. I was still an RSD fanboy back then so I trolled him lol. After doing some research on him, I found exactly what you found. Gordon was an OG Keyboard Jockey it seems.
Ray was like a satanic parody of Blackdragon, with just enough real seduction knowledge to occasionally conceal what a pathetic incel he was.That's a very accurate description of him lol
B 2018-06-29 16:31:35
Not sure if this is a shit test... You make plans for a second date, she says something like "Can we do tomorrow instead of tonight? It would work better for me because of...(whatever). But if you can't, I can still do tonight." I've always just agreed to reschedule, but am I fucking this up by allowing more time to pass before having sex when I didn't necessarily have to?
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-06-30 11:27:55
I don't see a reason to reschedule if she says that she doesn't mind tonight. To me, her indecisiveness seems just like a nervous reaction.
No more Mr. nice guy 2018-07-01 07:45:51
B, I would not consider that a shit test. In fact, I can think of a few times where I pushed to meet again quickly, even though it was somewhat inconvenient for the women. They agreed, but the dates did not go as well as they could have...they felt pressured, or tired, or needed to be back home at a certain time. Makes the whole seduction process more difficult. That said, if they want to reschedule the same date twice, without a really good reason...that’s a red flag. But perhaps just signifies lack of interest, as opposed to a shit test.
B 2018-07-01 18:15:58
Thanks boys. It definitely wasn't a shit test. I had the second date with her and she was INCREDIBLY NERVOUS. She's apparently very inexperienced, hasn't had sex in forever, just moved here from literally across the country a couple weeks ago, etc. Far too much nervousness/asd to actually get to sex, but she VERY clearly wanted to and thoroughly enjoyed all of what we did do. Date 3 should be more fun 🙂
DB 2018-07-09 03:01:03
I was just shit tested in a LTR relationship. We have been not as close lately due to ongoing day to day life stuff. I am busy working on 'my list' of things to accomplish and she is busy with her life / kids / divorce etc. ( I NEVER bought into that 'save a hoe' reality, I just emotionally supported her) Problem is the more she talks about her asshole ex the more the 'Catch 22' was developing or I knew it would develop. She talks about ex to me, more I will feel internally to her female brain like a friend. If I don't listen I look feel an unsupportive douche boyfriend. Anyways... fast forward to post theatre night, I got the 'where is this relationship going' discussion, she sees red flags, is powering down etc. I agreed and said it was over, we talked some more, no harsh feelings (I know game) and I calmly gave her some stuff back and that was that. I HAD NO PLAN TO TEXT HER OR COMMUNICATE. Of course she did text a couple times then headed out west for vacation with her kids. I woke up the next morning and told myself 'I will let the light in' meaning more women. Shamefully, I did have oneitis in this relationship even though we 'played' with others on occasion. Well if not a cute brunette who I met a couple times invite me for a drink with her female buddy. Before you know it back to my house, pool party etc. I made sure to take a pic of the fire with the brunette in it. As my gf (now ex-gf) send me a pic of the kids with the word 'Cuties' I replied with my pic with the word 'Cutie'. She seemed cool, but when we got back she laid into me for having a new woman so fast etc. I calmly told her I 'just let the light in' and that this happened. She assumed I fucked her, told her I did not but I might at some point. We ended last night with a good conversation, she will be attending a dinner event we had BUT she is not my gf any longer, she is 'back in place' I was a bit cocky an arrogant in my texts to her an she lapped it up. You see I was being a bit of a lazy beta bitch lately, and guys women WILL power down around that nonsense. She will be downgraded (or rightsized is more appropriate) to a F or FWB. not LTR. Down the road maybe... but NOT before she dates others, sniffs around. That would be my rules. (Boys NO jealousy with women, EVER) And guys, I would not have got this drama if I was fucking someone on the side. The spiral. She even wants me to, actually turns her on. It is as necessary as taking a shit or shaving... you need side pussy... for her benefit and yours. So when she shit tests you, follow this blog 'Agree, Keep Calm and Chive On' and sprinkle a little bit of 'mental judo' in there as well. 😉
kevin 2018-07-11 06:41:46
DB ...gave her stuff back? sounds like the road to problems right there!
CK 2018-07-17 16:40:17
This is a great article because I tend to be a "nice" guy who will willingly do things to be helpful. I applied this style last night, although I don't know if her comment rises to the level of "shit test." New girl to me: "I vowed I would never again date a man with children." Me to new girl: "No problem, we don't have to date, we can just keep hooking up."