02 Dec Legalities of an OLTR Marriage
I’m about to delve into a very complex topic that varies wildly based on the city/state/province and country in which you reside. There is no way I can be comprehensive or even accurate in a generalized article like this directed at a worldwide audience.
-By Caleb Jones
Instead, I’ll give you a basic overview on how to manage the legal aspects of when you have an OLTR Marriage. Please, please, please refer to a family or divorce attorney where you live if you have any questions on this topic. He will be able to help you in ways I can’t; anything he says will override anything I say on this topic. Again, the laws vary too much.
The first aspect you need to address when you live with a woman is, if possible, to ensure that the living together aspect does not become a legal marriage, common law marriage, or what is considered a “marriage-like relationship.” I said if possible because in many, perhaps most cities in the left-wing Collapsing West, pretty much any time you live with a woman full-time for more than a few years will automatically be considered a relationship like this no matter what you sign.
Regardless, you need to determine if this is an option where you live, then sign the legal paperwork with you and your OLTR wife that signifies this. When you sign anything, you need to get it notarized. Any signatures with both of your names on it won’t be enforceable otherwise.
If you live in a region where this isn’t possible, then you need to either A) move to another city before you move in with a woman; B) plan on kicking her out of your house right before the relationship becomes a de facto marriage (and make sure she knows this is the plan); C) go ahead and let the relationship become a de facto marriage but make sure you enact numerous other safeguards well before she ever moves in with you (which may be less effective and will cost more money in legal and banking costs). The choice is yours.
The point is to be informed and have a well-thought-out plan BEFORE she moves in with you. For fuck’s sake, don’t be like every other moron who just moves in with a woman without evaluating all of these aspects.
The next thing to address is something most jurisdictions call “communal property.” Communal property (CP) is any assets that are considered both you and your wife’s. If you split up, all CP is split 50/50 between you and her, regardless of who owned it before the marriage or who earned it during the marriage. In most jurisdictions, this will be done even if you’ve signed a prenuptial agreement or similar document. It’s very hard to find a way around a 50/50 split of CP.
However, what you can do (in some jurisdictions) is carefully define all (or most) of your assets and earnings as individual property or personal property (PP) instead of communal property. If you split up, she will receive 50% of your CP but she can’t get any of your PP, and the same is true with her (you won’t be able to get any of her PP). Of course, there can be many exceptions to this based on the scenario, legal paperwork, and regional laws.
The goal is to assign all of your current and future assets (or at least as much as is allowed in your region) as PP, and either have no CP or a very tiny pool of CP that you don’t mind losing half of in a divorce. Your legal paperwork will define all of this.
Next, you need to make sure your legal paperwork absolves you of any and all alimony or palimony. Interestingly, this is usually the easiest part, though not always. Some places, like California, will force you at gunpoint to pay your ex-wife alimony for the rest of her life if you were married for more than ten years even if you both signed a prenup. (Men who get legally married in places like this are either tremendously reckless or flat-out insane. I laugh hysterically every time I see a pick-up artist or red pill guy in California get legally married, and I’ve seen it many times.)
Child support can’t be avoided no matter what you do. If you make kids with her, you’re going to pay child support no matter what. That should be something you budget before you ever impregnate a woman, as I discussed here. Just realize in most parts of the West, there is no magical document you can sign that forever protects you from paying child support. If the mother pushes the issue, you’re going to pay it or go to jail.
Next, you need to engage in asset protection. This is the legal practice of protecting your assets so your wife can’t take them away from you in case of a break-up or divorce. This is done using things like corporations, trusts, family members, creative investing, stateless assets, paperless assets, and offshoring your assets to distant countries far away from your wife’s reach. Asset protection is a huge topic and beyond the scope of this article, but the point is that a massive layer of asset protection is required in addition to all of the legal paperwork you sign with your wife. Just getting a prenup and calling it a day is not going to do it.
Too many guys get prenups (or similar paperwork) but then do the usual thing of owning a house, a small business, and a 401k or IRA in their own names. They don’t actually protect anything. Then they get a divorce and the wife (with the help of our anti-man legal system) plows through his paperwork and she takes everything. Don’t make this mistake. Asset protection is required in an OLTR Marriage.
Next, you need to enforce a forever separation of finances. This is something I’ve talked about at great length many times before. This simply means that you don’t ever have any shared assets, debts, accounts, or leases with your wife. Everything is either in her name or your name. Nothing is in both of your names.
I love these idiots who move in with their girlfriends, refuse to marry her and think they’re being smart, then buy a house with her. NO! The house, just like everything else, needs to be 100% hers or 100% yours. Share everything with your wife, but co-own nothing with her.
Moreover, this must always be the case. If you start out with all finances separate but then you get complacent a few years in and start combining things, you destroy all protections of having things separate, and now everything possibly becomes CP. Very bad.
Those are the basics. As I’ve said before, I’m legally barred from discussing anything I have done legally or financially with my marriage to Pink Firefly so I can’t and won’t answer any of those questions in the comments, but I’m happy to answer general questions on this topic. It’s an important one.
And I’ll repeat one key item that bears repeating: Do not move in with a woman under a romantic context until you are at least 35 years old. Otherwise YOU ARE STUPID. You can certainly see how complicated this stuff is and you’re not ready to do it if you’re a young guy.
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Al
Posted at 10:45 am, 2nd December 2019Good Stuff BD !
Alexandra
Posted at 11:28 am, 2nd December 2019Do you ever suggest getting a second cheap property, e.g. a small condo in a cheap area of town and then claiming you don’t live together officially?
Or if each person already owns property under their own name in the same city and keeps it that way after moving in together, would you not avoid having to split assets in the event of a break up?
Redbaron
Posted at 11:55 am, 2nd December 2019With 10+ years of manosphere/red-pill content on the internet you would think that most guys would learn to be smart with women in relationships by now, but it seems like most men are still slow to learn even in today’s information age where they have all the necessary information to get ahead in life at their fingertips.
I’m a young guy and I see it. I personally don’t plan on ever having a relationship or moving in with a woman under a romantic context primarily because my brain isn’t wired to for pair bonding, only for sex (and I hope it stays this way for my own good). Secondarily, I think the effort and money involved in setting up the legal protections for a romantic move-in with a woman is not worth the potential “emotional reward” of moving in with a woman (I am assuming the emotional reward is why most men move in with women).
CCMidwest
Posted at 12:18 pm, 2nd December 2019Not always true. Several states have passed legislation stating that child custody and child expenses are to be split automatically 50/50 unless there is good reason not to (like abuse, alcoholism, etc)
In my state “support” only comes into play if custody is not 50/50 or there is below poverty level income for the custodial parent, and even then the courts are instructed to keep support obligation in line with actual expenses as much as possible…with judges retaining the right to make changes for “the welfare of the children” as they deem appropriate.
Child support and child expenses are not the same thing. I am divorced, with 50% custody. I pay no child support, but pay 50% of child expenses that benefit the child 100% of the time (medical care, dental care, health insurance, school sport equipment, etc.)
In other words I pay 50% of legit expenses…way different than some made up BS support obligation. I usually have to write the ex a check for about $150 a month.
A good friend of mine is a hot shot divorce attorney and he keeps track of nationwide law changes. He says the family/divorce court system has changed dramatically in the last 5 or so years to be more equal. (Still has a long way to go obviously)
CrabRangoon
Posted at 12:18 pm, 2nd December 2019@Redbaron
“With 10+ years of manosphere/red-pill content on the internet you would think that most guys would learn to be smart with women in relationships by now, but it seems like most men are still slow to learn even in today’s information age where they have all the necessary information to get ahead in life at their fingertips.”
Yes you would think this given the ease of finding this info and how much it has proliferated over the past several years. Many men prefer to live in blissful ignorance I think and even knowing all this, want to go back to their old ways because they place high value on external/social validation. Also, it’s the path of least resistance and is just easier to go along with-you get all the pats on the back and accolades guys that are more 2.0 won’t get.
Other men just don’t even want to know this information and think they’re Superman, Alpha enough, etc.. and can control their women in some way.
Still others are blinded by Oneitis and think they can’t live without this woman, regardless of how bad the deal becomes. These are your typical corporate drone types that have no real mission in life and just go on auto-pilot through all the stages society tells you to go through.
Disney Prince
Posted at 02:57 pm, 2nd December 2019This goes to show you that marriage is first and foremost a FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENT.
And at this point I’d say sex is almost wholly financial too.
I have seen every kind of relationship go south.
There worst one’s are when the couple are syrupy sugary in love. Those women are the first to cheat and bail.
The others are the ones who believe in soul mates.
When you corner them and ask them for a definition of the magical soul mate they always respond with some illogical bullshit by saying our souls have multiple soulmates or the next one will be the one. It’s absolute bullshit that sells pop psychology and new age books and intelligent people buy into it.
Young guys, under thirty-five, who think that your wife or girlfriend will always be there and you do not need to listen to this. Yours will be the worst breakups. You have made a terrible error.
hollywood
Posted at 02:59 pm, 2nd December 2019I disagree. I have two children with the ex wife. Her and I live in a state that requires a judge to evaluate child support for every case. In other words, neither party can “decline” child support. The state forces it. I do not pay a dime of child support. How? Well I received shared/joint 50/50 custody of our children. It just so happens at the time, we made nearly the same income, so no child support could be issued. If I made a lot more money than her, I would get stuck paying very minimal child support to balance things out, but 50/50 custody is the only fair way to do child support.
Coincidentally, the point of divorce is when I slowly began becoming Alpha 2.0. It started with me researching how to get her back. Essentially, don’t beg for her back, clean up, look sharp, make lots of plans, stay busy, and when she asks questions, be vague and make her start guessing and thinking. This worked. She wanted me back, but things changed. I was becoming Alpha 2.0. I ended up realizing I didn’t want her back. However she wanted me back so bad, she agreed to do the entire divorce and custody with one lawyer and do it all fair and 50/50. I would suggest if you are getting divorced, to do what I did. Get her to want you back. It may not work especially if you’ve already cried and begged for her back. But literally appearing to have a fulfilling busy life to the point you no longer give a shit about her, while looking sharp and new every time she sees you will likely pull her back. You may think she’s probably regretting her decision these days, she’s married to a new man and living a blended family life, but she brags about how she is a good woman who knows her children need their father just as much as their mother. I’ve been divorced 7 years now. It’s pretty much peaceful between us.
Antekirtt
Posted at 03:41 pm, 2nd December 2019@Hollywood: do they only take income into account or could you get screwed for having more assets/savings than your wife at the time of divorce (even if you earned same as she earned for most of the relationship/marriage)?
Every time an article like this comes out, I’m even more resolved never to move in with anyone lol. But biology’s a bitch, you never know. At least right now I don’t even feel the need for an oltr, let alone a live-in oltr. I’ll do this if, like, I have so much time and energy on my hands that I can literally become a legal nerd in cohabitation and divorce. Unlikely to happen, especially that I’ve always hated all kinds of paperwork anyway.
Redbaron
Posted at 06:58 pm, 2nd December 2019Sex much is pretty much a financial/temporal/effort-based transaction 98% of the time, and has been that way since the beginning of dawn (there are always those 2% of the time exceptions where the girl wants sex just for the sex, but those are the exceptions and the exceptions prove the rule). That’s why prostitution is referred to as the “world’s oldest profession”. Marriage, IMO, is a perverted and more inefficient form of prostitution. If you think about it, dating is a fairly recent invention, only gaining mass popularity in the early 20th century (around the time a lot of US states started making prostitution illegal).
Incognito
Posted at 08:25 pm, 2nd December 2019Even if it were only two percent, that’s not bad. Go and find them. If you live in a city with a million women, that’s 20,000.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 08:30 pm, 2nd December 2019Regarding legally getting out of child support or some child support, of course there are always odd exceptions to that rule, but you guys know what I always say about making your argument based on the unusual exception to the rule, right?
Yep, you can do something like this if you really want to. I’ve heard of a few guys doing this.
No. Both of your property instantly becomes communal property in a traditional marriage or marriage-like relationship… unless you do what I recommend in the article.
Yes. You would think. But sadly that isn’t how human beings work. It’s sort of amazing.
Correct.
Incorrect. Around 90% of all of my past relationships with women (scores of them over the past 13 years) had zero financial component.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:12 pm, 2nd December 2019What the hell? No. Incorrect.
Where is this bullshit coming from?
joelsuf
Posted at 10:12 pm, 2nd December 2019After checking out this article, I feel like my mother running out on my dad and I before I entered high school was a blessing now.
There is no chance in a cold hell that I will ever get married. I can still see visions of how depressed and bitter my dad was after his divorce. He was just not the same. Even at that age I knew that there was no way I could ever benefit from being married.
Although I try not to be too cynical about chicks, it is very difficult to trust them after witnessing them take advantage of a lot of the more important dudes in my life – and gleefully, might I add.
I always thought marriage (especially TMM) was antiquated beyond belief anyways. God save any dude who is foolish enough to get married or who are married going into the 2020s, people I know included lol.
hollywood
Posted at 10:34 pm, 2nd December 2019Yes assets are split 50/50, no getting around that other than if she agrees on forfeiting it, but things like owned property, homes, vehicles have to be split 50/50 by the courts, or the overall asset total has to be divided equally. Mine wasn’t necessarily equal, but we just agreed on everything we were splitting and signed paperwork saying it was equally divided. The home had to split evenly and there was no getting around that. In my case I owned it soley in my name and the loan was in my name, so I had to pay her half of the equity and kept the house.
Stephen
Posted at 10:59 pm, 2nd December 2019Perhaps you are just leaving out details, but this article goes against everything I’ve learned over the years. Community property is what was acquired after the marriage started. Separate property is what each person had the day before the marriage. So, all you need is a list of your assets before the marriage. Signed/agreed, of course. Keep your banking separate. No joint accounts.
If you have a house, this is yours after the divorce. But, you need to structure it like it’s a rental business. Be careful that you make all the tax, mortgage and maintenance payments. If she contributes to any of this, a lawyer could claim part of the equity is rightfully hers. She should be paying rent with a lease agreement to live in your house. There should be some sort of room mate like agreement that spells out how much each of you will pay for living expenses. She should be paying her share of utilities, food, etc.
If you help her with expenses, you should structure that as a loan with interest and payback terms. Signed/agreed, of course. Then later it will count against any asset split. Otherwise anything you give her is a gift, which you assume you will never get back. If it turns out she’s a good girl and the split up is friendly, you can always forget about the loan and call it a gift. But if you don’t do it right you won’t have the option.
Retirement accounts are always separate property so long as she never contributes a dime. You are keeping banking separate, right? Inheritances are always separate.
doclove
Posted at 04:52 am, 3rd December 2019First let me say that Blackdragon has solid advice if you want to get married especially OLTR married if you are a man living in the 1st world nations especially the West and most of all the USA. However it is a bad idea to get married. First an increasing number of states are like California in that they are becoming ever more misandric, against men. Even if you avoid the most misandric states to be married in, that does not mean that the rules and laws and enforcement of them won’t change and became as bad or worse than California. Keep in mind that as long lost commenter Jack Outside the Box, former divorce attorney, said that marriage and child support are courts of equity and not courts of law according to my memory. There is the Duluth model in which you can count more often than not on any accusation of harrassment or abuse being charged by a woman against the man will have the police remove the man from the home in a domestic dispute even if he owns the property, mortgages the property and rents or leases the property where he resides. That briefly deals with the legal and financial aspect of it.
Let us move on to the emotional/psychological aspect. It is better for a man to have only FBs or at least 2 MLTRs.. The emotional sense of loss can not occur or is almost nothing because their is little to no emotional attachment to the women because they are only FBs meant for sexual physical gratification and practice IF an MLTR leaves, while it is devastating to lose the emotional connection, needs and wants , it will be mitigated because the other MLTR is still giving you as a man emotional connection, needs and wants. You can have a failed OLTR relationship and many FBs satisfying your physical but not emotional needs, and although not quite as bas as a monogamous relationship that is finished, it is still emotionally devastating to most if not all men.
There should be another reason besides I want an better stronger deeper emotional connection with a woman before getting into an OLTR especially an OLTR marriage or even monogamous especially monogamously married even though I still think it is a mistake to become OLTR or monogamous with any woman for myself and almost all men. One reason to do it is what Jack Outside the Box wanted to do and that is to have children and at least try to raise them properly or at least semi-properly. It is better for the children for the father to try to be around financially, emotionally etc. if the father stays in the relationship. A better reason is why Blackdragon is doing it in my opinion even though he never explicitly said so which I will state at the end. Women have a tendency to be an emotional, financial and time suck and if they didn’t have vaginas, mouths, anuses, hands and breast cleavage we men like our penises to ejaculate into or on then we would even more drastically limit our relationships with them. As the late great standup comic Patrice O’Neal said, “what would you ladies do if you did not have vaginas? How would you get your man? How would you keep your man?” Blackdragon probably truly loves Pink Firefly and wants a deeper, stronger and better emotional connection with her, but let us not delude ourselves in that she is not the emotional, financial and time suck on him that most women would be which allows him to concentrate more fully on his mission and make more money and be able to leave the USA faster and better than he would be able to do so otherwise, and I truly believe that he fully knows, understands and is self aware of this.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:16 am, 3rd December 2019They wouldn’t. They would probably need to be sugar mamas to pay men to hang out with them. Japan is often a good place to explore such what ifs because honestly almost everything happens there and this is no exception. Look up “Host Club” – it is where (usually older rich) women go to hang out with handsome and fashionable men.
Unfortunately this does not work so well for me. FB leaving if she was my fav in terms of good sex its hugely emotionally devastating for me. MLTR leaving is def not IF, it happens all the time, especially if she knows shes one of your girls and its clear you have no intention of making her a gf. If she doesn’t know she often leaves because you didn’t give her what she thought she wanted or because of some vague stuff like “we don’t have that much in common” or “idk, it kinda feels different now, lol bye” …. that is pretty much women these days in a nutshell and it doesn’t matter how many months or even years you spent together or what you did for her if she feels like she wants something else she usually leaves without offering to find a replacement and without giving a notice period.
This is probably legally shady, but it is near impossible for her to do anything about it, legally: If you are doing the flags system you live in a country that isnt your citizenship country. If you also are not attached to stay in that country and dont keep finances there which again is as per flag system then you can just leave the country. Good luck getting you to pay the child support then. It is not likely she can even if find you and it is not like there is interpol for civil cases like this or something. However, the morality of it is questionable because it is your child after all. No matter what you think about the woman or what she did wrong, imagine the child finds you one day and you have to explain why you left it behind with no support and no recognition. Still, it is good to know one can always just leave the country if something unexpected happens and you are in a situation where you really cannot pay.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:26 am, 3rd December 2019This is irrelevant. You can just have FBs on the side which will not take much of your time or energy or money. Anyway, even as a good father and husband its not like you’re not allowed to have hobbies so even if you spend many hours a week with FBs and have to pay them since they are sugar babies its just your hobby lets say. If you can afford it on top of providing for your family and giving the children good education and nice holidays I do not see how this makes any difference whatsoever. The whole point of FB / sugar babies is that they are on the side and you don’t get deeply involved, its no different than for example playing tennis on weekends with your buddies. In fact it can be beneficial for the relationship and family since it puts less pressure on the wife to have to satisfy you on daily basis (and thus take her time and energy away from the kids…). Of course one needs to be able to afford this and one should not have romantic side girlfriends in this situation.
Living with a woman has many advantages. Some guys just really like it, others just want the constant sexual availability any time (you don’t live with a woman who isn’t like that, that would be absurdly insane). There is no reason to be monogamous though, I agree. NonMonogamous doesn’t have to mean you have 5 other girls that you see every single week, it can just be that if you chose to you can always find someone and you don’t need anyones permission and its not cheating – for that there is no reason not to have such arrangement with your girl. The only time a guy will object to this is saying he would do that so she doesn’t get to do that also but then he forgets if a woman wants to do that she will cheat or leave you anyway and if she doesn’t want to do that she wont do it even if “she can”, so being mono or not is irrelevant for what your woman does.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:29 am, 3rd December 2019Right; read the part that I bolded in your statement. Signed/agreed. If you have $500,000 and she has zero dollars and you just get married and don’t sign anything beyond the marriage license then get divorced three years later she can be awarded up to 50% of that original $500,000 if she pushes the issue.
Correct.
I believe this is true, yes, because those are government instruments.
Fuck yes. Everything separate.
Again I believe that is true but I’d be careful about using the word “always.” Example: while married you inherit $1 million from your rich uncle, you haven’t signed anything other than the marriage license, and then you get divorced 5 years later. I’m pretty sure she could argue that million is now communal and get some of that.
Correct.
In most cases this is correct.
Correct. I am paying a price by being OLTR married, as will any man. I have ensured that this price is very small compared to 99% of other married men, but the price is still there. The benefits I receive from being in an live-in OLTR outweigh this price for me, at this time in my life. This was not true for most of my life prior (I said no to many marriage proposals from other women prior to PF), nor is it true for most men reading these words.
I will post an article explaining this in more detail soon; many have asked for it.
Eh, I would change “many” to “some.” And again, these advantages are only valid for certain men at certain points in their lives.
More or less correct.
Stephen
Posted at 01:52 pm, 3rd December 2019Only if you are very stupid and careless. All you would need is bank statements for the month before the marriage proving you had that as separate property going in. In court everything has to be proven with evidence. You can’t just say “hey bro, that was mine” and hope to convince a judge.
I realize you are writing this for average guys who have very little or no business experience. You are doing them a good service, warning them of the pitfalls and advising competent legal assistance. But all it really takes is a basic understanding of business to get thru this unharmed.
I would advise every man, alpha 2.0 or not, to take a business law class at your local college. We live in a society governed by laws and it is very important that you learn the basics. You will learn how to write your own simple contracts, deal with employers, banks, landlords, stores, etc… Splitting up divorce assets and who pays child support are just issues of business equity.
Lothar of the Hill People
Posted at 05:41 pm, 3rd December 2019All good and relevant but why get married in the first place?
Some would say to have children.
But I can see where you can side-skirt that too and still raise them in an environment that is conducive to good growth.
What’s the point?
The only reason I can see if she is a super cool chic and she has more assets than you.
Or for insurance purposes or benefits.
C Lo
Posted at 10:13 pm, 3rd December 2019BD had written earlier articles (on this subject) that I was highly critical of.
This is not one of those articles, and it is very good.
Some guys are really needy, or really want to settle down with somebody and pair bond or some shit. Clearly I’m still bitter and jaded divorced guy, but I just don’t get it. I spent twenty years in (what I still believe) was a decent marriage and it wasn’t even worth the trouble before you consider the meatgrinder that is a contested California divorce.
C Lo
Posted at 10:55 pm, 3rd December 2019Unless she’s being vexatious and angry about it. Then she can beat the snot out of you with the process.
Ultimately she’ll get her half. If she’s representing her self per se, you will potentially be out exponentially more legal fees than if she had an attorney. At least thats how mine went down.
She got her half, my attorney got my half, and bankruptcy got the rest of it.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:43 am, 4th December 2019My friend, that is the norm and the standard for men who get married.
Hm. Good advice.
Most men shouldn’t.
For those few who could, I will answer that in a future post. Also read this.
That’s because…
Which is why your opinion on this topic isn’t relevant or valid, and won’t be for at least another year or two. I don’t say that as an insult; I was like that too for about 2-3 years; angry and thus highly irrational and biased about he topic of settling down with a woman. I said a lot of things online in 2008 and 2009 that I regret until I snapped out of it and got back to objectivity.
You will too. Eventually. (But not yet.)
Wow, yeah, you need a lot more time before you can state objective opinions on this. I’d be furious too. But humans can’t be objective and furious at the same time.
Mr. Hankey
Posted at 09:55 am, 4th December 2019Excellent post and comments.
I feel like this has helped me to really lock on to
what is
what I want
and how to achieve it.
Thank you for that, Caleb.
My tolerance level is extremely low for bullshit and this all cuts through the ninety percent of it floating out there in the ethers.
This is the best business and relationship model for the current age.
I was talking to a female friend of mine who streams on Twitch (funny, yes it is one of her income “streams”) and we both agree the business model and the relationship elements are sound and a lot of it applies to women as well (Ex. three separate sources of income, $75000). She was in total agreement with all of it.
She’s a smart girl and it only reaffirms all the information readily available here.
John Smith
Posted at 01:36 pm, 4th December 2019–
That’s not true. Contributions to retirement accounts made by you and your employer during the marriage are marital property. Interest and investment growth that occurs during the marriage is marital property as well. Contributions and growth prior to the marriage are yours.
If the Qualified Domestic Relations Order (QDRO) isn’t written the right way, you could also end up paying taxes and early withdrawal penalties on distributions to your wife which would make splitting the retirement assets suck even more.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:18 pm, 4th December 2019Interesting.
Big20s
Posted at 05:27 pm, 4th December 2019Remember, thanks to the Duluth model, she’s only a 911 call away from taking your house, your kids & possibly your freedom.
Stephen
Posted at 07:14 pm, 4th December 2019The article is about OLTR “marriage”, not a legal marriage. Your comment is true, but off topic. In the US, if you are not legally married and you have not combined finances, this is a non issue.
Let’s also remember BD is writing to a global audience. A lot of this doesn’t apply to US law, even Krazy Kali. For example, palimony is not real if you just keep your mouth shut. If you promised in writing to take care of her all her life, then you have palimony. Not so scary now, is it?
Same for common law marriages. In a few states if you go around telling everyone you are really married, just without the paper, that can be a problem. So just shut up in those states. In one of those states BD might be in trouble because he and Pink FF had a ceremony, rings, and they probably go around telling everyone they’re married. But it doesn’t apply to Oregon, so okay… for now at least 🙂
I looked up marriage like relationship, and it only applies to one province in Canada.
Antekirtt
Posted at 11:38 am, 5th December 2019So that article says “This is the price you pay to satisfy the human need to co-habit / pair bond that 97% of you (including me) have, or will have as you get older. That still doesn’t mean the NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER advice will be effective in changing men’s behaviors“; what if I’m part of the 97% and do get that desire for cohabitation, but successfully resist it and never move in with a woman, what level of unhappiness will I be looking at? Can I still hope to achieve close to 8/10 consistent happiness (assuming I stick to FBs, MLTRs and the occasional non-live-in OLTR)?
Buzz
Posted at 12:30 pm, 5th December 2019Questions
1 Does it matter if she makes more money than you do?
2 Does it matter if there is a record of her paying you rent?
3 Does it matter if you move into her house, condo, whatever?
4 Does it matter if she is sterile, had a hysterectomy or tubes tied?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:39 pm, 5th December 2019You won’t. If there was a way I could bet $50,000 on it I would. By the time you’re 60 years old you’ll either be living with a woman or divorced (and “divorced” can mean you used to live with a woman but don’t anymore). Watch.
Going along with your hypothetical that will not happen, that depends on A) your personality and temperament, B) where you are in life when you are much older (over age 45 or so), C) your level of cultural Societal Programming, and D) how much influence your family has over you.
If she makes a little more than you, not really.
If she makes a lot more than you, yes it can depending on the region, but the odds of you actually marrying a woman who has way more money than you AND is attractive enough physically and personality-wise to actually marry are so low that it’s not really worth considering.
The hope of marrying some rich woman is a form of bullshit Guy-Disney. I’m starting to see more and more guys hope for this.
Yes. That means you both “co-own” the lease in most cases.
If she owns the home 100% and makes 100% of all mortgage and utility and property tax payments out of a checking account with only her name on it, then you’re good as long as you both sign the right paperwork (cohabitation agreement, etc). Otherwise you’ve got a possible problem (and she certainly does).
Irrelevant to this discussion.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 05:24 am, 6th December 2019Can’t you just get her to sign a paper where you say there is no possibility to get money from you ever and that this document cannot be challenged in court and that it is above any law that can ever be applied to it and that there is no possibility for any law to override this? You sign it outside of the jurisdiction where you plan to live and then you add a clause that says if it would ever be the case you come into a jursdiction where a law could make the statements written here null or a new law shall be passed that would do this then automatically the marriage and any agreements or rights arising from this are void upon entry to that jurisdiction for that particular jurisdiction.
See? Simple. Such a document cannot be challenged in court by definition. You guys are just making this too complicated.
Living with a woman is fine, just keep all finances separate and one of you keeps a separate housing and are seen as a visitor and/or have an agreement like I suggested above.
John Smith
Posted at 07:33 am, 6th December 2019LOL. Be sure to write this fantasy contract in Comic Sans or crayon to make it even more enforceable.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 10:04 am, 6th December 2019I would like you to explain your belief it is not enforceable. I will wait.
In fact it does not need to be because the marriage is automatically void if the question of affordability and / or legality even arises by definition. There will never be any court hearing because it is clearly in violation of the contract and therefore voids the marriage and all rights arising from thereof.
If you need an attorney for a relationship you are doing something wrong. It is laughable.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:23 am, 6th December 2019Hahahahahaha!
And you’re living in a fantasy land.
Correct, maintaining two separate residences at all times will usually work provided you do everything else correctly.
Your statements are laughable.
But seriously, if you really believe all of these things you’re saying, go do everything you’re saying in the Western world without any attorneys and let us all know how that works out after 5 years.
Stephen
Posted at 06:16 pm, 6th December 2019Caleb, IMO he’s right that you don’t need an attorney. Just look up “common law marriage”, “marriage like relationship” and “palimony” on google. As I pointed out earlier, they are mostly bunk. Perhaps attorneys are spreading this fear to drum up business.
In the US, if you don’t get legally married, all you really have to do is not combine finances or buy anything together. That especially means not letting her pay for anything related to your house, except under a lease agreement. BTW, it’s not just women — don’t let your buddy or your parents make your mortgage payments either. They could later claim part of the equity too.
I looked this stuff up and saw no cases of non married men getting taken to the cleaners in family court. If you have specific examples of where this happened, please enlighten us.
C Lo
Posted at 08:59 pm, 6th December 2019I’m at five years plus, almost six.
Frankly, at year two, I discovered your writings, which kept my head in the game for an additional three years before I decided it was okay to feel good about pulling the plug, which is what I honestly always wanted to do.
I appreciate your work, and think that your advice is solid. I’m not actually bitter, and was being flippant.
Ill post back if I change my mind.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:05 am, 7th December 2019Seek mental health counseling. And I’m not making a joke or insulting you; I’m serious.
C Lo
Posted at 06:26 pm, 9th December 2019No offense taken.
I already did, for four of the five years, at substantial expense in both time and money. If you think I’m in bad shape now, y’all should have caught me before!Somebody this weekend told me I’d be coming out of it “any second now” and hopefully he’s right. But, as I described to him, I’m….different since then. There’s parts of me totally burned out and missing. But I’ve come to realize that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Im still gonna go have an awesome life. It just isn’t gonna look exactly like what I expected.
You suggested a Brian Tracy book that I read – Personal Power, where he talks about some doctor who experienced a trauma and “he will probably never get over it.”
It was the sort of throwaway line a good editor would have tossed, but when I read that about six months ago and a absolutely wild thought occurred to me “maybe I don’t have to get over it”. And it’s been a relief, frankly.
I was working too hard on something that I really didn’t want. I wasn’t being honest with myself in regard to what I wanted my life to look like going forward, and that was causing lots of problems. I have a working plan for building that life going forward. But it’s built around me, without the compromise of having to consider someone else.
I want to take this opportunity to apologize for being so combative over the years I participated here. I didn’t understand how much circumstances changed, mostly because I was struggling with what thought I wanted and what I actually wanted. Once I got those two things calibrated things started to smooth out.
And, so this isn’t totally off topic, I loved being married, but I don’t want to ever live with a woman ever again for reasons, and I’m not the least bit judgmental of someone else who chooses differently.
This article is a great example of how to accomplish that and minimize your downside when things eventually end. I hope your readers take it to heart.
iphrihf
Posted at 06:24 am, 10th December 2019I’m doing research on which states in the US are OLTR marriage and cohabitation friendly.
I know you’re not a lawyer, but could you let us know which states are on the less-risky side of things when it comes to marriage?
C Lo
Posted at 02:09 pm, 10th December 2019I can think of a dozen reasons he shouldn’t starting with he’s not a lawyer.
Even if you do everything right and get OLTR in a jurisdiction where you are home free, it only is good if you stay there and DONT move somewhere they DONT recognize it.
There is an additional non zero risk the legislation in your state changes the law and zeros out your work. It’s very small but it could happen, so you’ll have to be aware of changes and act accordingly going forward.
Do your own work, people!
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:43 am, 11th December 2019That is exactly what I think hence my comments above.
That is why you put a clause in the contract that makes it so that no future changes in legislation can change this contract and if it is possible ever to be ruled otherwise the contract is void in that jurisdiction.
Antekirtt
Posted at 04:34 pm, 12th December 2019@AlphaOmega: You said something similar earlier in this thread and don’t seem to realize what’s wrong with it. Forgive a nerdy digression but it reminds me of when Asimov wanted to fix the problems with his three laws of robotics by adding Law Zero which was supposed to supersede them all. Better yet, it reminds me of God. We have questions about reality and its origin etc, and instead of searching for actual explanations or just saying we don’t have an answer, just invoke an X that “makes it so that…” the properties of X arbitrarily solve the problem. Then we call it God, and voilà. It’s a shit solution. Same thing here. You can’t invoke a law that simply “has the property of solving all those legal problems” because anyone who doesn’t like it can also invent a “clause that makes it so…”. Granted, you can try but it isn’t a final solution as you seemed to suggest; it is as strong as people’s ability to get courts to overrule it.
C Lo
Posted at 05:26 pm, 12th December 2019Pre existing rejoinder is a thing and you should probably read up on it and how it effects this issue.
Again, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck the court will treat it like a duck.
Look, I’m unapologetically on anyone’s side who gets divorced against a vexatious ex. But if you are going to enter a contract (signed or implied, TMM or otherwise) you should be aware of what you can protect yourself from legally. It’s not much, to the point where if you are shopping jurisdictions to get hitched and reside, I gotta ask you if it’s really worth it? Let me suggest an alternative strategy:
Figure out the limits in your jurisdiction, and don’t cross them. That may be just don’t get legally married (California) or in some place that recognizes common law marriage, maybe don’t move in.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 06:25 pm, 12th December 2019Would never be enforceable in the real world during a real divorce years down the road.
You are absolutely talking out of your ass on this topic.
Stephen
Posted at 11:10 pm, 13th December 2019I’m not sure he’s completely wrong. Look at all the companies that have terms of service that say you can only dispute them in arbitration, not civil court. The law can make that invalid and there is nothing you can do. But in many cases the companies use it and it works. Two people can agree to most anything. It makes it much harder on them if they later try to reneg. This is essentially what a prenup tries to do.
In all fairness, all of us here are talking out our asses to some degree. Even legal experts lose cases. That’s why under US law just don’t get married and don’t combine finances. You will very likely be safe.
One more hazard for men that get married. I’ve heard wifey can establish residency in a state with friendlier laws. Perhaps one that will ignore your prenup. Then divorce you from there. So if she leaves you, best to quickly divorce her in your home state where you have all your legal ducks in a row. Otherwise every divorce could become a CA divorce.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:54 am, 14th December 2019I’m not. That’s why my very first statements on this topic is always “please check with your local attorney before trying any of this.”
Refusing to use an attorney and just relying on your guy-logic to apply these things to real-world scenarios of angry ex-wives and left-wing anti-man divorce courts is talking out of your ass.
Yep. That’s exactly what Katie Holmes did to Tom Cruise to get custody of his kids.
C Lo
Posted at 10:12 am, 16th December 2019Alternatively, one could potentially flip that to your advantage. If you were in a state where they DID recognize common law and moved to California, she’d be hosed if you did everything right.