09 Dec Honesty
One of the biggest problems in man-woman relationships is the issue of honesty. Everyone lies to each other constantly.
-By Caleb Jones
Some people lie a lot.
Some people lie a little but still lie.
Some people tell huge lies.
Some people tell lots of little lies.
Some people get quietly resentful or fearful when their partner(s) lie to them.
Some people get furious and engage in massive drama and arguments when they’re lied to.
And so on.
This is a problem with both men and women. Anyone who says or implies that one sex lies more than the other is full of shit. Men, women, aliens, I don’t care! Pretty much all of you fuckers are lying to the people you’re dating.
Chris Rock once said that men lie more than women, but women tell the biggest lies. Men lie by saying things like, “Uh, yeah, I picked up the bread on the way home. I didn’t forget.” But women lie by saying things like, “It’s YOUR baby!”
We could debate that I suppose, but the point is that everyone is lying to everyone. The world of dating and relationships is a world of dishonesty. Today I’m going to talk about how to navigate that world as an Alpha Male 2.0.
The two biggest reasons people lie to their sexual partners is Societal Programming and monogamy. Just think about it. The vast majority of lies boyfriends, girlfriends, husbands, and wives tell each other are due to one of these two reasons:
1. They are trying to shield someone from something they think is societally unacceptable.
or
2. They have somehow violated the rules of traditional monogamy (even if that means all they did was have a friendly IM conversation over social media with an ex).
Fortunately, as an Alpha Male 2.0, these two factors don’t apply nearly as much to you as it does to our beta male and Alpha Male 1.0 brothers. Thankfully, you’re sexually free. You’re not monogamous and never will be, so you never need to lie about anything in that realm (unless you are really fucking up the non-monogamous relationship models).
Societal Programming is a factor with other people, so that needs to be accounted for, but the Alpha Male 2.0 has worked really hard to remove his false Societal Programming from both his life and his mind instead of embracing it.
The Alpha Male 2.0 doesn’t need to lie to a woman he’s in a relationship with, ever, for any reason. You simply do whatever the hell you want, don’t hide it, and if she doesn’t like it, she can leave any time she wants and you don’t care because you have other women in your life besides her and she’ll likely be back anyway.
Once you’re well past several months into your relationship, she should have a pretty good idea of everything you’re doing. If she doesn’t like it at that point, that’s on her, not you. If she doesn’t like it, that’s her problem, not yours. She can either leave and go find another guy or stay with you and deal with it.
When a man lies to a woman in a relationship with it’s because he’s scared she might leave him. It’s a mild form of oneitis. Instead, you shouldn’t give a shit.
This applies to even Alpha Male 2.0s with OLTR Marriages like I have. I’ve never lied to Pink Firefly about anything and I never will. I don’t need to. She knows me well at this point and pretty much knows what I’m doing with my life. I don’t need to hide anything, and if she doesn’t like it, that’s her problem. She’s welcome to divorce me any time she likes, get nothing from me financially, and my sex life with my FBs will continue. I’m covered no matter what happens. That’s why I never need to lie.
This is the exact opposite of the beta male (or the Alpha Male 1.0 who surrenders to monogamy) who “needs” to lie to their women all the damn time, but I’ll get to those poor bastards in a minute.
To be clear, I’m talking about not lying to a woman, meaning that everything you say to a woman is 100% truth. I’m not saying you need to disclose everything to everyone. Honesty and disclosure are two different things. Today I’m only talking about honesty. I discussed disclosure and “lying by omission” already here.
Men think that lying eliminates drama. Men are wrong. Lying delays and expands drama. It does not eliminate drama.
If the woman you’re dating asks you a question to which she’ll hate the answer, yes, lying to her about the answer and telling her what she wants to hear will prevent her from screaming at you today. However, eventually she’ll discover you lied to her. It might take months. It might even take years. But she’ll find out. Men are terrible at keeping secrets from women.
At that point, you’ll not only have drama, but you’ll have more drama than you would have if you had told her the truth to begin with. You didn’t eliminate any drama. You just exacerbated and tossed it a few months into the future. Not smart.
Plus, the fact you lied to her is proof positive that you’re needy, outcome dependent and likely have some oneitis. You shouldn’t care what she thinks. If you’re completely honest with her (which is what women always say they want!) and she responds by actually giving you drama, fine, soft next her ass on the spot and go have sex with the next woman on the list. Yes, it’s that simple (I’ve done it many times in the past.)
Speaking of needy, that brings us to our beta male brothers. Beta males lie to hide things. Since betas live in a state of scarcity and fear, they’re terrified that if the woman in their life finds out X, Y, or Z, she might break up with him or yell at him. Oh dear! Can’t have that!
Alpha Male 1.0s lie as a matter of course, as part of their lifestyle. Unlike beta males, most (though not all Alpha Male 1.0s) lie to women on an ongoing, and regular basis. To use the monogamy example, beta males are actually monogamous (at least for the most part) so they don’t need to lie about it. Alpha Male 1.0s promise monogamy then turn right around and cheat. They “have” to lie, and they do, all the damn time. And, of course, they eventually get caught and have drama.
The Alpha Male 2.0, never being monogamous and living his life the way he wants regardless of what women think, doesn’t need to lie unless he’s really screwed up somehow (failed to follow the Cardinal Rules, got oneitis, etc).
Honesty in terms of your relationships is a big topic and I’ve only scratched the surface here. I will write more on this if I get requests to do so.
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greenlander
Posted at 06:34 am, 9th December 2019When you wrote “Alpha Male 1.0s live as a matter of course…” did you really mean “Alpha Male 1.0s LIE as a matter of course…”?
AlphaOmega
Posted at 06:53 am, 9th December 2019You always say that and I have experienced that a few times but often in my cases the woman never brings up the topic and never asks where this is going or what I am doing or want from her. I guess your response will be that this is fine and that it means I am doing things well but do I still need to tell her at some point or never if she never asks anything?
To give an example two of the (3) girls ive been dating over the past several months, one at some point told me she thinks I dont want anything serious and she doesnt either and just wants to continue as is, whatever it is we have. The other never asked or said anything and I have been leaving her lots of hints of other women which I believe she picked up on very clearly and after 5 and half months of dating she left saying we don’t have enough in common.
So neither ever asked me anything about this and I haven’t told them either. I consider both cases success considering the duration where I was doing whatever I wanted and they didn’t push for anything more serious but I wonder if in such cases it constitutes lying or not. I guess not with the girl who said she doesn’t want anything serious since its kinda implied I can do whatever.
It is true that often women ask and bring it up but I find in my experience its def not that they always do and in fact at least half of the time they don’t (I have more experience on this than the two cases above, they are just examples).
hollywood
Posted at 08:16 am, 9th December 2019Women shit test you by trying to get you to lie to them sometimes. It can be a difficult thing for some of you to do. She asks a question with a tone that implies she will be pissed if you give the wrong answer. But you need to answer truthfully. She probably suspects or knows the answer and if you lie, she’s ready to dish out the drama. So if you lie, you may have just brought about instant drama, but even if not, like BD just said in the article, it will eventually come back and cause you drama. Typically if you answer truthfully, even though it pisses her off, she may initially react unhappily, but guaranteed her attraction will go up for you. It’s almost amazing how honest you can be about some things and it won’t bite you simply because you didn’t lie.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 08:21 am, 9th December 2019BD often says that one of the biggest mistakes men make is over-verbalizing things.
It’s exceedingly likely that she was pursuing other opportunities just like you were, and then some man requested monogamy which she accepted for the time being.
You did not lie because you didn’t say anything to begin with.
Are you guilty of lying by omission? A big no. Lying by omission implies that you see that the other party is misled, and you neglect to alert them to the actual state of things. This is not the case either.
What you’ve been doing, same as BD advocates, is what could be called truth by omission. They know perfectly well what’s happening, you just don’t say it aloud.
If your question is an ethical one—can I sleep well knowing I behave this way with women?—compare the situation with something less stereotypical. Suppose you have a trait that annoys her a bit. For example, you raise poultry, but she considers the very thought of this disgusting. The arrangement is that she knows well you spend some time in your coop, but you don’t let the birds get anywhere close to the house, and you certainly don’t rub the matter in her face by discussing novel uses of chicken manure in her presence. Would you find such an arrangement unethical?
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 08:30 am, 9th December 2019It’s not like you have to answer all the questions, there are other options.
“Are you seeing other women?!”
“Why, yes, I have 15, two for each day of the week plus one spare.” (“agree and amplify”)
“Are you seeing other women?!”
“You’re so cute when you make that pouty face.” (deflect)
“Are you seeing other women?!”
“Of course no, honey, you are the only woman in the world for me!” (not recommended, especially if it’s the truth)
“Are you seeing other women?!”
“I see who the fuck I want, deal with it.” (not recommended either)
Viking
Posted at 08:56 am, 9th December 2019Be aware of women trying to dig a hole in your soft uncertain brain and placing her own truth in there.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 09:15 am, 9th December 2019Well, work to have a firm certain brain that only believes things that are true?
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:28 am, 9th December 2019If she does that to you while you are long term dating she is clearly not a serious relationship material. If she is a low level MLTR or a FB, then who cares what she thinks.
If it is at the beginning then you deflect / avoid the questions / make a joke about it like Pseudonym User says.
Yes indeed that is why I thought its best to just leave it if she doesn’t ask. It is just that sometimes I was asking myself is it that she is really ok with this or did she miss the hints I have been dropping her?
With some women, yes this was the case. I had a women where I knew this happened and I suspect this with one or two other ones in the past. In this case I am extremely sure it was not the case, but not that it really matters. It started to feel different after we spent longer time together than usual and I was busy during that time so couldn’t give her attention. She left a few weeks after that. I think that was the mistake to learn from here. In fact I was starting to get bored of her. Sometimes I think women feel or know when you have doubts and leave you for that so that it cannot happen that you leave them, they want to be the ones to do this. I have had something like this several other times also. It is interesting.
This is the thing, I am not sure. As I said, what if she really was naive and inexperienced and didn’t pick up on my hints that I have other women. Maybe I over think it but since here we have an article about lying I thought this is relevant because I am often having doubts in situations as in this example. Do you think that when having such doubts I should try to give more hints and make them more obvious? Or should I just leave it, enjoy and see if drama happens one day or not…
Actually, now that you mention this she did say at some point that her friends saw me on Tinder. I didn’t respond to that at all. She then added that she told them I prob forgot to delete it and that there is no need to worry but that I am being watched. I didn’t say anything. (Not sure if thats a good idea, but it worked then) and then we talked about another topic as if nothing happened. Is this a good way to deflect? It has worked for me in the past with other women also, but most women will press in this case, so won’t work on most I think.
But that is precisely why I was having doubts she picked up on the hints because she said I am being watched on other occasions also. Why would she say that if she understood I am still seeing other women. It made me think she did not pick up on my hints and just assumed we are monogamous. Would you still say I shouldn’t verbalize with such women or would you say unless verbalized its lying?
Other less innocent women I had who picked up on the hints or just assumed somehow I do have others would never say things like that I am being watched or ask about other women.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:30 am, 9th December 2019Excellent comment, haha.
As a man, your qualities should be reliability, certainty, rationality. Women are confused like crazy so a man needs to be the light that guides them. I believe that is even the idea when you look at nature and biology. As a man your role is to lead women, help them understand who they are and what they want and guide them through confusion and uncertainty, clarify when they have wrong views. You know that things are very wrong both with the women and with yourself when the situation is the other way around (or trying to be the other way around…), unless you are a very afeminate man trying to date very manly women.
Viking
Posted at 11:00 am, 9th December 2019Exactly, but truth be told: “the Truth, and Nothing But the Truth” is only true for a woman if the truth is the same as her emotional truth.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:28 am, 9th December 2019Yes; fixed.
Irrelevant at that point. She still knows what you’re doing (assuming you’re following the Cardinal Rules). Women are far more perceptive about these things than us men.
With the one rare exception of the OLTR Talk, no.
Good way of putting it.
Eric C Smith
Posted at 11:48 am, 9th December 2019good topic. im reading Harry Browne’s freedom book again. closely tied topic! full honesty is a breath of fresh air. I will revisit this idea again as I get my logistics, finances, and lifestyle sorted out.
Tao of Steve
Posted at 12:00 pm, 9th December 2019I am loving this.
The alpha male sounds more like the Ubermensch more and more and I mean that in the sense of being unshackled but maintaining your own code.
I can say that when it comes to the matter of sex and cheating women are 00 agents and men are bumbling idiots.
After sleeping with many married women over decades it becomes readily apparent that they don’t do it because they hate their husbands, they do it because they love their husbands and they don’t want to leave their families.
And women are much better at cheating than men.
It’s not societal programming but rather societal pressure that keeps them from being honest.
And I am not defending or rationalizing but merely stating how it is.
The thing about being an alpha is that you aren’t the only man she is attracted to.
And if you are realistic this is not a problem for you.
If you can be realistic about sex and relationships and follow these guidelines they will serve you well and you will be better off than ninety percent of the men out there.
Stephen
Posted at 12:03 pm, 9th December 2019The only thing I lie about is my age. Once we are in a relationship I’ll let her know the truth. But why bother in the beginning, when it’s most likely she’ll just be an FB or flake after 1-2 meetings?
It is a white lie that hurts no one. It gets me laid, and it gets her the benefit of my magnificence, where otherwise we may have missed out. No harm, no foul.
Stephen
Posted at 12:19 pm, 9th December 2019I’ve seen this enough times that it doesn’t bother me. I have a tape in my head ready to play. I say — if we still like each other at the one year mark, we can DISCUSS being exclusive. Until then, we both have the right to date others.
That seems to satisfy them. I’m dangling the carrot of monogamy, but I’m implying she has to earn it by being nice consistently. I’m being honest, because if she is nice for a year I want her around.
When she brings it up again, I can delay again. How good of a friend have you been? You’ve kind of been giving me drama. How would you rate yourself. Until you do X, Y and Z I cannot commit to you, etc… Again, letting her know that it is how she chooses to act that determines how far we go.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 01:12 pm, 9th December 2019Rationalists say that one of the biggest sources of bias is neglecting the base rate. E. g. if a test for a rare disease comes out positive, you still must take into account that the disease is rare to begin with (and that test errors are possibly more common than the disease itself). If one in 100,000 suffer from it, and the test is 99% reliable, your probability of having the disease is still 1 in 1000 after the positive result.
In psychology, it’s easy to overlook things that aren’t there, things that didn’t occur in your case. But the norm is that women cause scenes for evidence much less damning than having an active Tinder account. That no scene occurred is a very clear sign that it all worked in your favor.
I’m pretty sure these things work like this. A friend confronts the girl with evidence. The girl’s #1 priority is protecting her image, so she immediately invents an explanation that you’re a Socially Acceptable Faithful Man. She’s well aware that you aren’t, but the friends don’t need to know that. (Unless it’s a close friend, then the conversation devolves to “all men are like that” and “where to find a manly man who will do my bidding”.) When she gets to you, the events are on her mind. She knows you won’t tolerate a scene, so none is forthcoming. When she blurts out the news, it’s either because she doesn’t care and finds it funny, or because she doesn’t know what to do with it. Your options are to verbalize the truth (bad), lie (bad), and deflect.
In books on the art of negotiation (personally, I’m a fan of Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss), you’ll read that a skill is to know when to keep your mouth shut so the other party will feel compelled to continue the conversation, bring to light facts previously not known, and generally negotiate against themselves. With women especially, you’ll observe how easy it is to get her to negotiate against herself. Your girl, instead of confronting you with the news, supplied you with an acceptable explanation without being prompted! You ask whether it was a success, of course it was—to be exact, it was the outcome of all the frame setting that you did before, not of that particular interaction.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 01:14 pm, 9th December 2019Now that’s both half-lying (implying that there exists a set of circumstances under which you’ll be monogamous with her) and controlling behavior (you need to change your behavior). That’s too alpha1.0ish.
Stephen
Posted at 01:57 pm, 9th December 2019Pseudo, that’s a very important tell on her character. If someone assumes you have bad motives, she will never be a trusting partner. She probably dislikes men. If I get hit with negative mind reading or innuendo, it’s an automatic downgrade to FB.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 03:08 pm, 9th December 2019How on earth did you manage to infer that from what ΑΩ said?! From the word “watch”? That’s way too vague.
Tao of Steve
Posted at 03:54 pm, 9th December 2019To address the issues above–for example, being seen on Tinder
In all cases–without fail–after I was caught cheating the girl returned to me only to continue with the relationship.
I would not push it past the first time and the relationship never lasted beyond a short term after being caught though.
I changed my MO after that and I would tell potential partners that I am seeing and sleeping with other women and this was never a problem.
In fact, it makes you more attractive.
Before that I would try to be a sneaky fuck and lie about it and that always ended badly.
Also when caught cheating I can tell you from my own experience and that of my friends two things are effective.
Deny
Say little
I don’t really recommend that but I guess you could call it a failsafe if you find yourself in that situation.
That’s why being up front and honest not only simplifies thing it shows good character and helps to avoid headaches later.
A
Posted at 09:07 pm, 9th December 2019OT, but this is troubling.
Until five years ago, I was getting good results on Match.com. Now, in my mid-40s, I am getting fewer responses, so I might be old. But at least a search for women always led to women. I never had to see anything disturbing.
I joined Tinder just to see. In the process of swiping, there are SO MANY transgenders and men as ‘non-binary’! It is not just 0.3% but over 5%. This is in a big coastal metro, of course.
How can they be so many transgenders and freaks? I am sure I am not the only man who does NOT want to even see those. Why doesn’t Tinder let you filter out these transgenders?
Even though they say they are Trans, the whole thing seems like they are trying to trick straight men. Doing a Google search, many men post the same problem, and SJWs are quick to shame them with ‘That is why you are single!’, as in they are single because they won’t date a man pretending to be a woman. Trannies are getting more brazen about how men should be forced to date them.
The disgust is so high that if a single mother appears, I actually get glad since that at least proves she is a real woman.
Then I realized that the whole thing seems irreversibly tainted. I have not met up with anyone from Tinder at all, and don’t think I feel like it.
If you want to kill a man’s interest level and turn him MGTOW, make it so he cannot filter our transgenders and ‘non-binary’ types on a dating site.
I am sure I am not the only one seeing this on Tinder. What should one do? How come so many guys here think Tinder is good????
I may have to go back to Match.com, try Daygame (which is hard for me), or just give up and ‘retire’ as MGTOW.
Incognito
Posted at 11:49 pm, 9th December 2019Jesus. Who gives a shit? If they didn’t declare that they were trannies, that would be a problem. They should be congratulated for being upfront! Even if the 5% thing is correct, that’s still only one out of twenty. Concentrate on the other 19!
S
Posted at 03:41 am, 10th December 2019This is personal comment for Caleb,
I am a very successful attractive 35 years old female and I have recently started reading your articles. I find them interesting. I am very open and just looking for good sex with an alpha male but find it difficult to find. I do not belong to your 33 years old rule though. I just wish I could date a guy like you. I would go into bed with someone like you in less than a hour. Please keep educating men.
Viking
Posted at 04:10 am, 10th December 2019It’s not what you as a logically wired man say but how you actually behave with an emotionally wired girl that really matters, regarding how honest you are with her.
It’s not what you are thinking of the relationship, it’s how she is feeling.
If you want a FB but your EFA and behaviour are within the monomogous boyfriend frame, you are misleading her and I would say you are also lying. That’s what she will think and that’s what matters.
How do you feel when a girl give you sexual signals all night and make out with you, but when you go for the pull she changes her mind and firmly nails you down in the friend zone?
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 06:23 am, 10th December 2019I agree with both statements, and I’ll also add that they aren’t contradictory. Everyone should strive to be a logically wired person, and know enough of psychology to be able to cause such feelings in other people as best advances their agenda.
If I’m unable to display the correct EFA, it’s my failure, but ethically, it’s not an intentional lie. Practically, it’s likely to cause distrust and other issues in her, so of course this is to be avoided.
“Practically, I’ve failed to achieve my goals. Ethically, I caused the girl to suffer from not getting something she obviously wanted at some point. Both are bad. I must develop my skills so neither happens again.”
A
Posted at 09:42 am, 10th December 2019Jesus. Who gives a shit? If they didn’t declare that they were trannies, that would be a problem. They should be congratulated for being upfront! Even if the 5% thing is correct, that’s still only one out of twenty. Concentrate on the other 19!
er… A lot of men would prefer if they didn’t have to see trannies and non-binaries on a dating site where they have no option of filtering them out.
Plus, the 5% who declare are not even the biggest problem. There are obviously many who are trying to deceive. I don’t think I could be tricked, but I would rather not even communicate with one over the phone.
Furthermore, as I said, this vastly lowers standards. I used to reject single mothers without exception, but now a single mother looks good as she has proven she is a woman.
I can’t believe you are minimizing the negative ripple effects of this problem.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:35 am, 10th December 2019Thank you for your Honesty. Pun intended. 🙂
I agree. Many men make this mistake, particularly younger guys.
joelsuf
Posted at 11:00 am, 10th December 2019tbh, a mentality like this is the golden ticket for every dude out there. Even chicks or LGBT folk should follow this advice. Don’t lie and know that if the person you like leaves you or doesn’t want to be with you, someone much better is just around the corner.
I have a bad habit of doing this but tbh I feel like it is necessary for me as it takes a weight off my back. If someone isn’t comfortable with the adverse things that happened to me, that’s their problem. I’ll just keep looking for someone much better for me who I know is right around the corner.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 12:30 pm, 10th December 2019An understandable approach, but a highly non-productive one. Knowing when to keep your mouth shut is a valuable skill you’d do well to acquire.
Stephen
Posted at 12:33 pm, 10th December 2019Post pictures with your weight/measurements, along with where you live. I’m sure there are some alphas around who can give you a hand.
joelsuf
Posted at 06:15 pm, 10th December 2019Fair enough. I just feel like there is such a stigma behind the stuff I went through that if no one knows about it, more like me will suffer in silence. But then again, why waste my energy?
So fair point.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 04:56 am, 11th December 2019Are you the one whose mother engaged in… questionable parenting practices? Writing a post somewhere on the internets will certainly have more impact than telling the story to one particular woman. Though both approaches are indeed a waste of energy.
Arnie
Posted at 06:58 am, 11th December 2019For the Tinder Swipers out there … save time, swipe right on all them. Stop wasting your time looking through pics and reading bios. And then just ….
1. Nothing happens until there is a “match” …. Only worry about your matches
2. Be liberal with the unmatch feature – and who gives a flying fuck why you unmatched – just say “no reason” and move on
3. Message the matches you keep
4. IF they message back (once again, this is not a given), at that point, you can decided to look through the pictures and read the bio.
5. Follow Black Dragon’s advice to get out of the virtual world and into the real world as soon as possible. (because that’s the only place that matters).
If you’re wasting your time before there is even a match (and a message response), then you need to re-evaluate your goals for dating and the process you use to “be efficient” with your time.
Arnie
Posted at 07:17 am, 11th December 2019One more comment about ALWAYS swiping right … You will start to see the patterns of WHO swipes right on you. Over time, just like anything on the internet, you will begin to see patterns of activity, including age groups, their motivations (bio or messaging), body type, race, etc. and so on. If you are “attracting” groups which you don’t like, then start changing your photos and update your bio.
TEST, TEST, TEST – that is the lead generation motto of the internet. That rule doesn’t change just because it’s a dating site.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:41 am, 11th December 2019I also read now your reply to a similar comment in the newsletter and now its clear. It was not clear to me whether it needs to be verbalized at some point or not.
Yes, that is what I thought you would advise. So with MLTR you never verbalise / clarify the situation if she doesn’t bring it up herself?
Completely agree and do the same. I do not even consider it a lie as such since I think its irrelevant and inconsequential for a woman. The two reason that they care about normally is that they think you don’t look good anymore or you won’t have enough connection – well clearly thats nonsense if she thinks it works when you meet thinking your age is closer to her. Only reasons why she then might age closer to hers is her having some fetish for it or some irrational disorder based on upbringing – neither of which do I really want to help her promote, so it’s actually positive.
But I have a question for you: by how many years do you lie? My issue is that in the past I used to keep it a few years which is easy to disclose at some point and never was a big deal for them but recently I was experimenting with much bigger age difference and it does work and the women do not question my age, interestingly. I have successfully dated almost 10 years younger women who thought I was their age and they never question it. The problem then is I don’t feel like I can tell her anymore when it has been a while. Not really a problem if I don’t intend for anything beyond FB or low level MLTR but if in the future I meet a very young woman that I consider for something a bit more serious I have no idea what to do. But I guess that is a quality problem.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:46 am, 11th December 2019Then you are very smart. This is what women your age should do. The main reason for a guy to date someone your age is because your are sexually experienced, known what you want, and will not make any bullshit and can be easy to go straight to sex and maintain causal relationship without prejudice. This is what men expect from women of this age. Yet most women that age seem to do the opposite. It is hilarious because then they are all upset and surprised the quality men are all dating women in their 2os instead.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 09:58 am, 11th December 2019Completely disagree. If someone, doesn’t matter if its woman or a man, doesn’t matter if its relationship or business or whatever, makes choices based on emotions and not logic and facts this is a big mistake they are making and I am not going to go out of my way to support this mistake. To illustrate why this is the case you can imagine that for such a person the emotions change all the time and therefore there is no stability behind the decisions nor is there a stability of an opinion or understanding what the things mean, or indeed of what they want and don’t want. It is fine to be emotionally wired but then you pair up with a dominant rational and follow their lead and trust they know what’s best. So if I am sleeping with multiple women and she doesn’t think its good because of her emotion and that it was betrayal even though I never promised anything else because again of her emotion then she just needs to trust when I say that is fine and this is the right way to do things.
That example makes no sense. If you made out with her then clearly this is not platonic friends. Or did you mean friends with benefits zone? Irrelevant, because that would be fine with what you did together, she did not give any indication of romance beyond sexual interest. Perhaps you mean shes being emotional and changing her ideas left and right then you either come back when she changes her ideas again (this seems to be BD approach somewhat) or you help her understand what she wants as a good strong dominant rational.
None of us here experience the problem you describe. Such people are usually extremely easy to recognize and no one says you have to chat with them and meet them. Most of use do not even see them more often then once in a few thousand profiles. If you really see them that often then its perhaps something to do with your city and or the app you are using. Keep in mind different apps are better in different places and some cities are better for dating than others. If indeed you arent full of nonsense and its true as you say then perhaps the problem is not the app or the approach but the city where you live. If it has disproportional amount of such people it probably means all kinds of other problems with demographics, economy, political situation etc in that city – and that is a much bigger problem for you than what you describe.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 10:01 am, 11th December 2019I always thought it was strange that this was there and that you cannot select accidental match or something similar. I feel like this is a standard for women – “I dont have a reason why I dont like him – its just my emotion of the moment, oh I better go eat some chocolate to feel better”.
Anyway, Arnie, you describe what to do very well, though there are some additional tricks that can help a lot.
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 12:36 pm, 11th December 2019Of course all the women would benefit from becoming more rational and less emotional. Of course it makes no sense to be upset over, for example, some harsh words.
But you, as a rational person, should recognize the objective fact most people are mostly emotional. So you have either to surround you with rational people, including women (infeasible), or adapt to the fact and learn to influence others’ emotions.
A
Posted at 08:21 pm, 11th December 2019This is Tinder, and this is in the Bay Area, albeit 408, not San Francisco.
I installed Tinder because over here, it was rated as the most useful.
I have only ever seen three trannies in my entire life over here, but on Tinder, trannies + ‘non-binary’ are easily 5% of the matches, which is enough to gross me out from using the app.
Remember, I said above that in the past (2010-15), I used Match.com here in those days with success, and nothing disturbing like this would come up.
What bugs me is that Tinder does not let me filter them out, and they are numerous enough to be frequent appearances in the Tinder app.
I am sure other Bay Area residents here have used/do use Tinder, and can corroborate.
What is the best Bay Area app?
A
Posted at 08:27 pm, 11th December 2019Arnie,
<i>For the Tinder Swipers out there … save time, swipe right on all them. Stop wasting your time looking through pics and reading bios. And then just ….</i>
That would make sense, except that in the Bay Area and NYC (and probably LA), trannies and ‘non-binary’ freaks (i.e. men who appear on Tinder even if you are looking for women) are significant in number (about 5% of profiles in the Bay Area). Swiping right on all of them means you have swiped them right too.
Yes, you said you can unmatch later, but still…….
AlphaOmega
Posted at 01:49 am, 12th December 2019That is not what I mean at all. I mean that people can be emotional all they want but I do not tolerate making choices based on emotions since that is always wrong since emotions change all the time. So I am not going to support her making such choices. Either she falls in line or she doesn’t in which case it is her own problem if she feels betrayed or lied to since she made emotional choices and hopefully it serves as a lesson to her mistake. If she is not capable of making rational choices then she should just follow instructions from a dominant rational such as myself.
I thought it was something like that. Never been there but from what i hear it is the epicentre of extreme left and confusion (which are closely related). Perhaps you should consider moving out, since there are probably other way worse things happening there anyway.
I think you are here just to complain and are being irrational. Just use a different app if you don’t like it or go out to the malls and meet women there. Or move out.
Zech
Posted at 02:07 am, 12th December 2019I lie to my MLTRs not to unnecessarily to upset them. For example if I don’t feel like seeing them I tend to say “I can’t I’m busy” instead of “I don’t feel like seeing you”. Basic human courtesy and to avoid unnecessary low key drama next time I see and want to see her.
I’m a kind of person who naturally doesn’t wanna hang out with same person many days in a row and I need every other day for myself alone. Actually seeing same girl 1 or 2 times a week is great for me and it’s been easy for me to apply your advice about seeing girl only once or twice a week depending on her status.
John
Posted at 06:05 am, 12th December 2019Women are fantastic liars for the most part and good at detecting lies. They’re like little detectives and a lot of men will just about have a pair of sex stained panties hanging out of their pockets and say they don’t know how they got there. Too stupid to get rid of the evidence and too dumb to know they’re caught. My fun question of the day is if men where better liars overall would this be an article?
Pseudonymous User
Posted at 07:04 am, 12th December 2019The more things that don’t affect you you’re able to tolerate, the happier you’ll be. https://alphamale20.com/2014/11/09/zone-control/
POB
Posted at 08:37 am, 12th December 2019Tinder already has an algorithm that prevents right swipers to match with the hottest chicks (if I’m not mistaken, it’s been 3 years since they implemented that).
This algorithm gives you a number based on match quality and the number of responses you get. By swiping right all the time, what you are doing is putting yourself at the bottom of the line, along with the war pigs who got the lowest scores. They did that to prevent the rampage of auto-swipers, which right now are just a waste of time and money.
A better strategy to save time on tinder:
– wait for a promotion;
– buy tinder gold (I paid only 15 bucks last time);
– check the best time to match and activate the auto-booster (which is by far the best feature of the app right now…no wonder it’s so expensive);
– get 15-20 great matches and work on them;
– use the rest of your paid month for the extra 5 super likes/day and the “see who liked you” feature;
Caleb Jones
Posted at 08:58 am, 12th December 2019Yes! It’s hilarious.
It’s a combination of ego and stupidity.
Good question. If men were fantastic at getting away with lying like most women are, perhaps not. It depends on other factors. I would probably do it but the focus would be different (on her lies, and perhaps yours).
Arnie
Posted at 10:01 am, 12th December 2019@POB
Thanks for the tip about the “mass swipe right” on Tinder. Makes sense they have a “sensor” for that, plenty of fake profiles and bots.
Your suggestion is much better – the key is not wasting time, watch for patterns, move from online to real life and remember it’s a numbers game (Believe BD says that all the time).
Agreed about cycling Free to Paid. Another benefit of Paid is the ability to search any location. So if you travel (or are traveling), you can start the planning before you hit the ground.
Thanks again for the update and clarification.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 06:22 pm, 12th December 2019Correct. Unless you fully intend on upgrading her to OLTR right now.
joelsuf
Posted at 01:39 pm, 14th December 2019No, she just ran out on my dad and I. Didn’t hit me or molest me or anything. Although I’ve known dudes who have been straight up molested by their moms, aunts, sisters, etc with them facing zero consequences. They’re silent because support groups don’t believe them/exist and dudes victim blame them.
The victim blaming I don’t care about since containing that is stupid, but I do want to create more support groups for dudes who have been abused sexually since there is practically nothing out there.
The second I agree, its probably a waste of energy. But the first could save some who feel like they are all alone when it comes to going through what they went through. Which is what I want to do.
donnie demarco
Posted at 01:33 am, 19th December 2019when i first read this, i thought you were hella off topic. but in a way, it’s true that bay area women have a particularly hard time with honesty. which is ironic considering how “progressive” it’s supposed to be there.
in my experience, online dating is not time efficient in the bay. i recommend switching to daygame (best) or nightgame.
the best piece of advice i can give you is this: treat the bay area like Old Town in Sin City. the ladies are the law. and if you ever find yourself bound to a chair in rope surrounded by a bunch of angry women, you’re gonna have to take some licks if you wanna talk some sense into them.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 02:23 am, 19th December 2019My experience is that the more in this direction a place is the more difficulty with honesty the women tend to have.
I started calling progressive places “progressive” and the so called liberals, “liberals”. It is perhaps ironic but more so it is an accurate description of these areas and movements. It kinda makes sense, it’s like the dictatorship countries having the word democratic in the name of the country.
Shura
Posted at 10:00 am, 19th December 2019Blackdragon, I stumble on The Talk (not the OLTR one). In one case I had to do it without her asking because I could see she was getting very hung up on me and that she thought doing romantic things (high-end MLTR), even if just meeting once a week and other cardinal rules, meant we were boyfriend & girlfriend.
How to verbalise it without feeling like an OLTR talk is my problem. “Women on the side” (as your book recommends) makes it sound like others will just be FB’s. I wonder how to better express the idea of an MLTR.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:06 am, 20th December 2019I really hope you were dating her for at least 3 months before you did this. Otherwise you screwed up and did it way too soon.
You don’t have to say “women on the side.” Just say you’re not a monogamous man and never will be and leave it at that. Do not express the details of what you’ll be doing with the other women during The Talk. The Talk is just to express there will always be other women, not necessarily the context of those women.
Shura
Posted at 08:58 am, 22nd December 2019Of course, 6 months in both case and comply with the Cardinal Rules. Yet they don’t fathom the MLTR concept so tend to think you can’t possibly be doing with other women what you are with them (dinners out, day or weekend trips, etc).
stan
Posted at 04:11 pm, 22nd December 2019I also lie because I don’t want her to feel bad or sad. She does not like when I have sex with my ex, because she is afraid that I may dump her to get back with the ex, while for me the ex is now just a FB. My current girls does not seem to understand or believe it will stay as a FB.
donnie demarco
Posted at 02:35 am, 23rd December 2019i have good news, bad news, then more good news for you.
first, if you made it 6 months before she started pressuring you, that probably means you like each other a lot. so congratulations for that.
you haven’t gone into detail here, but i’m assuming what you mean is that her behavior changed in a negative way, like passive-aggressive actions that seem to be aimed at indirectly pressuring you into a different relationship structure. this should be viewed as an LSNFTE, and you never want to verbalize that. the problem with verbalization is that no matter how you go about it, it will come off as emotionally punishing for her, which will take a very long time for her to recover from (if ever).
a couple years ago this happened to me, the woman in question was becoming very rude and borderline crazy. i really tried to be gentle when i verbalized it, but it didn’t matter. the damage was done, and even now (years later), it still comes out in her behavior that she hasn’t fully recovered from this.
so the bad news is, you’ve hurt her, and if you want things to continue with her it will take some extra investment and additional responsibility on your part to gain her trust again.
but the good news is, if you feel she’s worth the investment, you’re on the right track to making things work out. but you have to believe 100% that you are making the best decisions for the two of you, and always approach things positively and constructively no matter how crazy she gets.
while i’ve never had an OLTR (maybe someday), top-MLTR (or “Queen of the Hill” MLTR) is the best relationship i’ve ever had, without question. so if a nutjob like myself can have this level of confidence in leading a relationship, so can you.
donnie demarco
Posted at 02:45 am, 23rd December 2019don’t lie. find a way to communicate truthfully but non-hurtfully. there is lots of advice on this blog on how to do this. remember that women are generally smarter than men are about this kind of shit.
in my experience this is mostly unavoidable. unless the woman in question is very, very independent, she will tend to assume the worst about every other woman in your life no matter what.
i recently had a conversation about this with a platonic female friend. i haven’t fully acted on her advice yet, so i can’t say for sure if this will help you. but maybe you can try it and let us know how it goes.
she told me that if you are in an open relationship, but the “queen” is the only one who matters, you need to take extra steps to communicate this non-verbally. like establishing clear zones in your life that are exclusive to her, and avoiding activities that can create potential ambiguities in those boundaries.
again, this is still a work-in-progress for me, but so far i’m happy with making these changes in my life. good luck.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 04:57 am, 24th December 2019wtf? She started to act like this and she needs to recover? I feel you missed a lot of details or you are dealing with drug addicts / psychological or possibly psychiatric dissorder.
And correctly, it is normal natural behaviour of a man to want to bang every remotely hot woman, unless he is completely saturated with varied sex from several varied women he considers super hot already. The problem is her thinking there is something wrong with this.
Yes that is good. Translation: let your actions speak for themselves so that you don’t need to verbalize. That should be a standard for you.
AlphaOmega
Posted at 05:04 am, 24th December 2019Actually I have another new recent funny experience with women struggling with honesty all the time regardless off location. I am convinces it stems largely from not being honest with themselves which then makes sense – how can you be honest with others if you aren’t with yourself?
Women lie all the time about all kinds of stuff it often feels like they are pathological liars. “We will meet again.” “I will come to your house sometime.” etc etc, these kinds of statements are basically promises that are expected by the other side to be kept but as we all know often are not kept. It is quite severe form of psychological condition from that point of view to causally break promises and make ones one knows will not be kept. The result is that this makes the person appear untrustworthy and that the stuff they say is irrelevant and inconsequential. And then women wonder why they are not taken seriously. Haha, darling, why do you think that is?
Anyway, the recent experience was a woman I dated for a while and then she left me and I recently see her on Tinder again. I read her profile and the stuff that she claims she is and what she claims she is looking for not looking for is completely wrong based on my experience with her. It means she is either actively lying to make herself look cool or whatever or is passively lying to meaning she did not learn anything from the experience and is at ground zero so will probably have the same issues she (thinks she) had with me again.
dante (with a t) demarco
Posted at 06:51 pm, 25th December 2019as an attorney once told me: “wow, you really know how to pick em, don’t you” 😛
your extrapolation is pretty accurate, not just for these women but for myself as well. i’m basically Dexter, and my relationships share a lot in common with his (just replace “serial killer” with “serial party boy/sex addict”).
it is, but i will always have certain challenges. for example i’ve never been a naturally jealous person, so it’s hard for me to empathize with those feelings and i constantly have to remind myself that most people can’t disassociate themselves as easily as i can.
i’m glad you brought this up bc i wanted to touch on this earlier but forgot to. i agree with chris rock about men lying to delay getting in trouble vs women telling bigger lies. but i think it’s more accurate to say that women lie for more complex reasons, like social/political concerns and self-image.
when i realized this, i instituted two personal rules that i still adhere to to this day: the first is that i don’t take women’s lies personally. the second is that i never call them out on their lies. when i sense a person is being dishonest with me, i simply consider their narrative, then consider what i believe to actually be true, and then choose a course of action that satisfies my goals in either scenario.
Bobby Roe
Posted at 04:45 pm, 13th January 2020How do you approach a situation with an MLTR who is intentionally deceiving you. One of my MLTRs recently went on a trip to Colorado with some other guy, which I don’t give a shit about. But she hid her Instagram stories from me so I couldn’t see them.
How would you confront her about this?
dante (with a t) demarco
Posted at 07:22 pm, 13th January 2020don’t confront her. she has her reasons and you should respect her independence and privacy.
it might also mean that you have said something or acted in a way that made her feel like you might be jealous, whether you actually are or not.
it could also be her projecting her own jealousy.