35 Comments on “Happiness or Longevity? – An Experiment”

1. Thanks for this one BD. Fun, entertaining, educational. I’d love to see more of this sort of thing on Red Pill manosphere sites vs. well, what we have now, to put it politely.

   Question: did you post the comparative results over at that other site for your Blue Pill friends? I’m sure they’re curious ;). Remember, Thou Shalt Stir The Pot

2. did you post the comparative results over at that other site for your Blue Pill friends? I’m sure they’re curious ;). Remember, Thou Shalt Stir The Pot

   That Shalt Stir The Pot, yes, but only when stirring the pot is of tangible benefit. My friends over there would simply explode into hysterics, not make any rational points (because they can’t), and nothing would be gained either by them or me. I was temped, but I don’t see the value into putting my limited and valuable time into a group of people who will not change their minds (until years later when they get divorced anyway).

3. This data fascinates me. Can’t say I am shocked.

   I am curious though how much of what people say is simply because it is either what they feel they should say or because if they don’t say it, they may have to examine what is true and that scares them…even if unconsciously.

   I saw stats that only 32% of Americans believe in evolution (2009 Pew Research Poll) but 57% believe in satan (2013 yougov.com survey). Are people really that stupid?

   I think there is so much societal programming impacting people that the real numbers are much different with even less people on all sides really believing that lifetime commitment is really good/realistic for anyone.

4. I’m so shallow I can only date young dumb women

   Even if it were true, I never understood why this was supposed to be an insult.

   Woman: “Yeah…well…you probably only date 18 year olds who don’t know any better.” >:(

   Man: “I know! It’s great right!? *high-five* No? Ohhhhhhh, you’re saying that’s a bad thing. My mistake….”

5. ” was temped, but I don’t see the value into putting my limited and valuable time into a group of people who will not change their minds ”

   Yeah, I guess so. It might be worth the cackle of trollish glee to watch them lose their shit though.
   More seriously, I think many of them would be surprised by the results. If roughly 1 in 3 don’t really think lifetime monogamy is a good thing, that might make more of them look suspiciously across the (chaste, unstained) bedsheets at night and wonder if their partner is as unhappy as they secretly are.

6. I think that what effects the responses from many of the married folksis the following:

   You see, these people have purposely commited themselves to a concept they held in high regard. Once they make that commitment, they feel compelled to defend that choice even when they start to notice things that may indicate their choice could be wrong. And the funny thing is, the more time they invest in their belief, the harder they feel compelled to defend that belief. I believe this phenomenon is covered in psychology but I forget what it’s called officially. Anyway, it is really hard for them to give an answer that conflicts with the efforts to which they have commited.

7. It might be worth the cackle of trollish glee to watch them lose their shit though.

   That’s just it. I have no interest in being a troll. I am interested in rational debates with rational adults who make rational points.

   Anyone else is welcome to post anything they want over there though.

   You see, these people have purposely commited themselves to a concept they held in high regard. Once they make that commitment, they feel compelled to defend that choice even when they start to notice things that may indicate their choice could be wrong. And the funny thing is, the more time they invest in their belief, the harder they feel compelled to defend that belief. I believe this phenomenon is covered in psychology but I forget what it’s called officially. Anyway, it is really hard for them to give an answer that conflicts with the efforts to which they have commited.

   Absolutely correct. When you get defensive, the frontal neocortex of the brain actually shuts down. Higher functions shut down. So when you speak within this state, you’re just speaking irrationally and emotionally, not logically or with any basis in reality.

   That why when I say long-term monogamy sucks, single guys or guys in very long-term mono relationships usually agree with me, but guys in relatively new relationships or marriages tear their hair out and lose their shit.

8. The observation Joshua Tenor made is spot on. It’s called The Law Of Dissonance which stipulates that people always respond/behave in ways that are consistent with their beliefs and highly held values……otherwise they feel discomfort and ill ate ease with themselves….

   That perhaps is why you got the results you got BD. Those pro-marriage guys responded they way they did because they had to defend what they felt was a right decision in their eyes even though in reality it’s not so.

   But like you said……one isn’t exactly surprised.

9. Geez guys. Is sex really that important?

   There it’s now been said.

   Single, male, 32. Never married, never will be. No kids.

   I’m just not that interested in sex anymore.

10. I wanted to address Jay Sauce’s comment:

    “Geez guys. Is sex really that important?
    There it’s now been said.
    Single, male, 32. Never married, never will be. No kids.
    I’m just not that interested in sex anymore.”

    I’ve actually heard a guy or two say this, but it’s a rare occurance. Now, even for me the interest level may have decreased a little from when I was younger, but sex is definitely still important to me, even during the times I’m not getting it… or not getting it with whom I would like to. Me? I’m a single male in a long term relationship, was married once. I have one kid.

11. There is an immense difference between not wanting sex and getting visibly defensive, confused, or upset when people around you talk about sex. You guys are talking about the former, I’m talking about the latter.

    I too know a small number of men who don’t want or like sex. I have never seen these men, or any man, react with defensiveness or confusion when other people talk about dating or sex. But have have seen many women do this. Married ones.

12. This is very interesting research and great to read.

    To me, it seems to highlight the female need for security over all else (including one’s own happiness). They would rather be in an unhappy relationship than no relationship at all, especially in older age.

13. To me, it seems to highlight the female need for security over all else (including one’s own happiness). They would rather be in an unhappy relationship than no relationship at all, especially in older age.

    Correct!

    I would love to have done a survey like this but with just blue pill women. Imagine what the numbers would have looked like then!

14. I think that the way you phrased the question implies that you are talking about monogamous relationships. So when you factor in the level of happiness of many short relationships versus a very long one you have to take into account the heartbreak of separation and the period of sadness after a breakup plus retraining your mind to “go get some”.

    So that brings the level of happiness down for the serial monogamy way. So for some people it is very alluring to put some effort into making the shitty relationship work.

15. “I think that what effects the responses from many of the married folksis the following:

    “You see, these people have purposely commited themselves to a concept they held in high regard. Once they make that commitment, they feel compelled to defend that choice even when they start to notice things that may indicate their choice could be wrong. And the funny thing is, the more time they invest in their belief, the harder they feel compelled to defend that belief. I believe this phenomenon is covered in psychology but I forget what it’s called officially. Anyway, it is really hard for them to give an answer that conflicts with the efforts to which they have commited.”

    —
    The mistake this commenter makes is that EVERYTHING is programming. People thinking that they need to have sex to “be a man” is just as much societal programming as the concept of marriage. Yes, everyone has a sex drive, but I’ve not had sex for long periods of time and been just as happy – if not more so – than when I was banging someone. Don’t hate on the marriage crowd so much (for being societally brainwashed) because you have to look in the mirror and you’ll see your own brainwashing.

16. Don’t hate on the marriage crowd so much (for being societally brainwashed) because you have to look in the mirror and you’ll see your own brainwashing.

    Brainwashing is fine as long as it doesn’t make you unhappy.

    For example, the problem isn’t low sex drive married people who never have sex and don’t mind. The problem is the normal and high sex drive people in a marriage where they suffer because their sexual needs aren’t met. And those married people far outnumber the non-sexual married people.

    Programming isn’t the issue. Happiness is.

17. Being almost 35, single, having a collection of ex’s (and drama) and at this very moment sharing my bed with a variety of women and living one of the most amazing times of my life I get a lot of this:

    – It’s time for you to settle ’cause soon you’ll be turning 40!!! (OMG I’ll be sooooo old when I turn 40, maybe I should grab a shotgun and blow my brains out)

    – Are you gonna be single forever? (Yep, what’s the big deal?)
    – You haven’t found THE ONE™ yet! (I’ve found MANY TIMES, it always ended like shit)

    – Don’t you wanna have kids??? (I do and I will and I won’t be married when the time comes)

    And my personal favorite
    – Don’t you wanna know someone for real, like really get to know someone, share your feelings and emotions and shit? (I do this ALL THE TIME with women I sleep, sometimes even with casual FBs, and I see married people (women mostly) holdin’ A LOT back from their “lifetime” partners).

    So I ask: Why do I have to change anything if i’m happy the way things are right now?

18. Excellent comment!

19. Found this post online earlier:

    ‘My wife and I met at 19, married at 23 and we’re 26 now. Two months ago she stopped shaving her pussy. She’s had it shaved since the day we met I asked her wtf cuz’ I don’t like bush on anyone. She told me that if I loved her it shouldn’t matter what her business looks like.’

    Thought immediately of this blog!

20. @POB I get all those questions as well. My general response is ‘none of your business’ whilst wearing a shit-eating grin. People (especially other married people) can’t stand to see a late 30’s man enjoying the single non-monagamous life and want them to join them in married misery, I mean bliss.

21. Short-term monogamy is just fine as long as I get unhappy with the relationship. Usually under 3 months.

22. as soon as*

23. Oh fuck, you understood what I mean.

    I’m not a native english speaker.

24. Honestly I think the results will be skewed because you used the term “ideal” length. I imagine, especially in such a place as that one, which is filled with idealists, their automatic thought is that the “ideal” is a unicorn woman and unicorn man meet and live happily ever after, so “ideal length” kind of implies, that if everything about you and your partner were perfect, you would get a perfect result. I’m completely on your side of reality on this one, but I have to admit, a lifelong relationship would be pretty good, if neither person ever gave each other drama, their love did nothing but increase, nobody cheated and nobody got bored.

    I’d be interested to see it reworded as something along the lines of “at what point do you feel it’s healthy for a relationship to end/move on?” 1. Never, for any reason, 2. I’m bored 3. I’m unhappy 4. I’m unhappy and the kids are grown, etc.

25. Soon she will be bragging (or at least heavily implying) that she is the most successful person, in terms of relationships, than anyone else in the group.

    Why? Because she’s been married for 14 years and hasn’t gotten divorced (yet). Everyone else in the group is either single, dating, divorced, or newly married. So she “wins.

    Well, obedience must be rewarded. Society rewards obedience to it, and what better reward than making the obedient feel they are… winning something :D.

26. (It’s interesting to note that most married men tend to not defend marriage like this…but that’s a topic for another time.)

    Yes, still, they keep running into legal marriage like ants into sugar. (And usually accept their new mate’s requests to marry once they are divorced once.)

27. Absolutely correct. When you get defensive, the frontal neocortex of the brain actually shuts down. Higher functions shut down. So when you speak within this state, you’re just speaking irrationally and emotionally, not logically or with any basis in reality.

    Well that happens when the deep mind knows their counterpart is in the right, and no fact-complying argument can be opposed to what they stated :D.
    It’s deeply deeply wired an evolutionary feature.

28. I’ll also say “Geez, is sex really that important.” I’m 44, married, kids, been lurking here for a while because I’m not happy with the current situation.  What happened in my case is that I found out the wife was using sex as a currency, a “reward” – something I notice everywhere.  Think of all the sitcoms where the “girl” tells the “guy” that “he’s sleeping on the couch tonight!” as a punishment for doing something “wrong”.  This hugely turned me off, and I decided to ask myself the question “is sex really that important”.  A word of warning for guys reading this who are about my age, hope it’s useful.

    When young people do the “no-fap challenge”, it helps and will build up libido.  Above a certain age, this is a “dangerous” experiment.  I now understand how monks in monasteries can live without sex: your body just gets used to it, and libido decreases.  It can be a permanent effect.  At first, my wife seemed “pleasantly surprised” at the change, then came a phase of “Oops this is not what I intended” and now we’re in a phase of “living together without sex”, and the subject basically never comes up.  When she’s in the mood (which is rare but happens), I’ll give her my full attention and make her cum, but am not interested in anything else.

    What is also quite surprising is that I get *much* more “game” now, from quite hot VYW (under half my age).  I’m never following up on it because I haven’t had “The Talk” with my wife yet, but I attribute it to *genuine* outcome-independence.  Because honestly, I don’t care if I end up having sex or not.  These VYW confide in me, send out signals, and seem genuinely puzzled that I switch the subject away from their hot story about that adventure they had last weekend with this other girl.

    I can hear the other forum members cringe at me wasting “opportunities”, and I have decided that I should indeed stop doing that.  I bought the “open marriage” ebook and am reading it with much interest.  I’ll keep you posted.  But back to the original topic: Even if you think “geez, is sex really that important”, there’s a lot to be learned.  It doesn’t have to be about scoring as much sex as possible from as many different women as possible.  If there’s no sex, I won’t go home and masturbate using my bitter tears as lube.  I shrug and go do something which interests me instead.

29. If there’s no sex, I won’t go home and masturbate using my bitter tears as lube.  I shrug and go do something which interests me instead.

    Read this.

    You’re doing what most monogamous married men do; making excuses for why sex isn’t that important to you instead of making changes in your life so you’ll be happier.

30. I have read it, and I am aware about the importance.  Not every man’s road to enlightenment is the same 🙂  Mine started by me refusing to accept “sex as a reward for good behavior on my part”, and went via “if you don’t want it, I don’t want it” to “if you don’t want it, I don’t want it with you.”  (This, incidentally, is why I struggle with some of your other posts where you respond to the “I’m not your hooker” speech with “It is your job to have sex with your guy”.  I would say “if you honestly see this as a job – then never mind, I’ll find an amateur instead.”)

    I see that there’s a long road ahead of me with very interesting and beautiful vistas, and I’m going to enjoy it.

    The main point of my (first) post here was to warn other readers: When you’re above a certain age, stopping having sex does not only have “mental” repercussions – there are physiological ones as well.  Your body will simply stop craving it.  This may even be irreversible.  At first you may think “Well that’s not so bad – one less thing to worry about.”  After all, if you don’t crave it, who cares whether you get it?

    By the time you realize that this is a bad idea, it may be difficult to realign.

31. Not every man’s road to enlightenment is the same

    We’re not talking about enlightenment. I’m not a Buddhist monk and neither are you. We’re talking about physical health and long-term masculine happiness. Neither are likely if you’re never having sex. (Maybe you understand that, maybe you don’t; it’s hard to tell with you.)

    Mine started by me refusing to accept “sex as a reward for good behavior on my part”, and went via “if you don’t want it, I don’t want it” to “if you don’t want it, I don’t want it with you.”

    That’s perfectly fine if you’re having sex with someone else on the side. Otherwise you’re just pouting; choosing celibacy or jerking off to porn instead of fucking her looks horribly unattractive to her and makes sex with her in the future even less likely.

    The main point of my (first) post here was to warn other readers: When you’re above a certain age, stopping having sex does not only have “mental” repercussions – there are physiological ones as well.  Your body will simply stop craving it.  This may even be irreversible.

    It’s not irreversible. I promise you that if you ever have sex with a super hot 22 year-old, you will suddenly “discover” that you’re a horny man once again. And one fuck is all it will take. Try it and you’ll see.

    I hope all you men who are looking to become monogamous someday are reading Vincent’s posts very carefully. This is what you’re looking at if your monogamous marriage is “successful,” i.e. it lasts a long time without any divorce or cheating.

32. That’s perfectly fine if you’re having sex with someone else on the side. Otherwise you’re just pouting; choosing celibacy or jerking off to porn instead of fucking her looks horribly unattractive to her and makes sex with her in the future even less likely.

    I’m not having sex with others on the side (yet) since I didn’t have The Talk yet.  I’m about half-way through your book.  Maybe I should have waited with posting until I finished it.  The point is that I don’t really care whether I’ll have sex with her in the future.

    I suggested an open marriage to her on several occasions.  Her reaction was, quite literally, “eww – why would I want to have sex with another guy.”  I left it at that.  I don’t think she’s cheating either – I honestly think she’s fine with the situation as it is.

    What I meant by “enlightenment” is the realization that it doesn’t have to be this way, and that I’m taking steps to change it.

    I hope there’s a section in the book on overcoming the “but you’re married” objection, which I have actually already encountered from several obviously interested VYWs (although I wouldn’t have slept with them anyway).  I suspect that most men claiming to be in an open marriage, have wives who know nothing about that fact 🙂

33. I suggested an open marriage to her on several occasions.  Her reaction was, quite literally, “eww – why would I want to have sex with another guy.”  I left it at that.

    Why did you leave it at that ? If your account of her reaction is accurate, then all you had to do was say “fine, i’ll sleep with other chicks and you can choose to sleep or not to sleep with other guys”, and you had your open marriage.

    You say you don’t care about sex; was your sex drive higher early in your marriage and before your marriage ? If it was, it’s extremely unlikley that you’ve just “adapted”, that kind of flexibility is very rare. As BD told you, go have sex a few times with a hot chick and then you can decide what is what.

    I don’t have anything in particular against asexual or quasi-asexual people, but it has to be honest, otherwise you’re just a normal guy doing himself a huge disservice. If your testosterone is much lower than it used to be then that could explain a diminished sex drive, but low T means a whole bunch of problems down the line.

34. Why did you leave it at that ? If your account of her reaction is accurate, then all you had to do was say “fine, i’ll sleep with other chicks and you can choose to sleep or not to sleep with other guys”, and you had your open marriage.

    True, and I wish I did.  I was “confused” at the time, and I actually honestly suggested it for her.  I had lost almost all interest in sex and I thought it’d only be fair.  I thought my lack of libido is what happens normally after X years of marriage, when the lust “wears off”. I had already learned that women’s libido increases with age, but by then I just wasn’t turned on by having sex “on her terms”.  I will gladly admit that this is partially caused by spite on my end.  “You turned me down when I was needing it; and it’s too late now.”  It was also partly “experiment” to see whether I really needed it so badly.  Either I don’t, or I did a good job fooling myself.

    My sex drive was indeed (much) higher in the past.

    I agree with the “just try it” assessment.  I realized that my interest in sex wasn’t really gone once some of these VYW told me, in these exact words (but not in English :-)) that she wanted my dick.  It’s been a while since I heard that, and it was an interesting eye-opener.  But first, I’ll finish the book and try not to screw it up when I bring up the subject again.  At least I’ll know more clearly what I want and how I’m going to get it.

    Thanks for the replies!

35. Finish the book, then get out into the real world and do what it recommends. If you still have questions at that point, let me know. Right now you’re just living in your own head.