Women Can’t Pick Restaurants
This classic funny-but-sad scenario plays out millions of times a day all over the developed world:
Husband: Where do you want to go eat tonight?
Wife: Oh, I don’t care. I’ll eat anything. You pick.
Husband: <rubbing his eyes, knowing what’s coming> No, seriously. Where do you want to eat?
Wife: I’m serious. I’ll eat anything tonight. Be the man! You pick!
Husband: Okay. Let’s go get Mexican.
Wife: Oh gross!!! I don’t want Mexican!
<argument ensues>
It’s a class women give their husbands and boyfriends on a regular basis called Female Irrationality 101. It’s amazing that husbands and boyfriends all over the world still fall for it as often as they do.
I can top it.
Way back when my kids were little and I was married, both my kids and my wife at the time did this. They even did it to each other at the same time. It was hilarious to watch.
On a semi-regular basis, the four of us would be at home or in the car, and I offered to take the family out to eat. My wife, son, and daughter would ask each other where to go. Per the feminine model, all three would say either “I don’t care” or “I’ll eat anything.” (My son wasn’t a woman of course, but he was a little boy, and often they act like chicks.) One of them would finally suggest a place, then another one of them would say, “No! I don’t want to go there!”
The three of them would then argue, and argue, and argue. I wasn’t involved in the discussion, since one of my super powers is that I actually do like everything. Unlike when women say it, when I say “I’ll eat anything,” it’s the literal truth. You could pick any type of restaurant in any city completely at random, and I’ll love it. You could even randomly pick any item on the menu, and I’ll love it. The upside is that it’s a very efficient and happiness-conducive way to live. The downside is that it’s one of the reasons I’ve been overweight for most of my adult life; I love food.
So, throughout the nine years I spent as a married family man, whenever the family decided to go out to dinner, I would say to the three of them, “Okay. You three argue about it and let me know where we’re going when you’re done.” The three of them would proceed to argue with each other, often to the point of getting angry and screaming, for literally 10 to 15 minutes. I would just sit there smiling and laughing (if we were in the car) or be in my home office working, listening to the screaming from a distance (if we were at home).
Finally, two of them would overpower the third, and they would reach a decision, with at least one of them seething. Sometimes this loser would be the wife, sometimes my daughter, or sometimes my son.
I would win every time. Since I like everything. My goal is happiness, as always.
Today, many years later, my daughter is now an adult and lives with me full time. Being a woman, she once tried to pull this shit on me. Unfortunately for her, her dad is Blackdragon.
When she first moved in with me a few months ago, her default statement for going out to eat was, say it with me folks, “You pick. I’ll eat anywhere.” Since it had been almost a decade since I lived with a woman, I had temporarily forgotten that women play this screwy, psychotic game, so I would stupidly choose a specific place, and she’d snort and say she didn’t want to go there.
After this happened, the next time she or I pitched the idea of going out to eat, I would say, “Pick three places (or three types of places) and I’ll pick one from your list. If you say you don’t want to go there, we’re not going out at all.”
Oh, she hated that. It made her girl brain hurt. “But…must…argue…with…man…Does…not…compute!”
Regardless, like most women, my daughter is a fast learner. After contorting her face, she would finally say something like, “Italian, burgers, or pizza.” Or she would say, “Anywhere except Mexican, Japanese, or Chinese.” Then, I’d immediately pick a specific place and stare at her with my Eyes of Steel. She’d then cower and say “Okay.”
I’ve used this method with her since then, and it always works great.
A few years ago, the last time I had a serious OLTR or high-end MLTR in my life, she would also attempt to do this. She’d try to make me pick a restaurant, when she knew god damn well whatever I would pick she’d say no to. Since my super power is that I like everything, I’d just make her pick where we ate almost every time we went out, unless I was in a very strong mood for something specific (which is rare for me; I like everything).
Problem solved. She’d pick a place and I’d love it no matter what it was. She was Asian, so usually it was Chinese, sushi, or Thai. Yum! I could eat buckets of all three. And have. Win for me. Zero drama, and food I love.
It might sound beta to let the girl always pick the place, but it was nothing of the sort. Why? Because she fucking hated it. She was a girly girl, into strong, masculine men, and the fact that she was forced to pick the restaurant almost every time drove her crazy. She wanted to be the typical woman, lie by saying she liked everything, have the boyfriend come up with a place, shoot down eight or nine of her boyfriend’s suggestions, and get into a mini-argument until they came up with a place she liked.
Unfortunately for her, her boyfriend was Blackdragon. Blackdragon doesn’t do drama. Nor does he involve himself with female irrationality. He can witness it from afar and laugh at it, but he doesn’t get personally involved with it. He’s too busy working on his Mission, having sex with babes, and being happy.
I’m currently in NRE with someone who I consider a strong candidate for OLTR. Because it’s the NRE phase, she is extremely sweet and compliant, and is always cheerfully agreeing with whatever my restaurant choice is. (When we go out, that is. I’m a cheapass, so often we just hang out at my place or hers. Much less expensive.) This is saying something, because she’s a really picky eater (as most feminine women are). Sometimes I ask her where she would like to eat, and she either quickly picks a specific place that I like (since I like everything) or she defers to me (“I like everything. You pick!”) and instantly agrees with my choice.
NRE is nice. Too bad its temporary.
I know that in a few months when the NRE wears off, which it will, she’s going to get “comfortable” and attempt this Female Irrationality 101 shit on me. Then she’ll be in for a rude awakening. She’ll reminded who she’s dealing with, and will learn, kicking and screaming, the Blackdragon Method of Picking Restaurants When a Female Is Involved™. She’ll fucking hate it. And I won’t care.
She’ll even read this blog post (Hi Sweetie!). Then she’ll say, “BD, how could you say that about me? You know I’ll never do that!” and a few weeks later she’ll do it. Women are funny. (As I’ve explained before, women’s two favorite words are always and never.)
Most importantly, when women try this silly crap on me, it doesn’t surprise me. I’m expecting it. Because they’re women. It’s how women work. Even the Good Ones™ who are Not Like The Rest™. Unlike betas or Alpha Male 1.0s, I don’t expect women, even intelligent ones, to make sense or be consistent.
Because I’m expecting it, A) I don’t fall for it and B) it doesn’t piss me off. On the contrary, often it actually entertains me and makes me laugh. Try it sometime. Watch the women in your life (including your female relatives) squirm and sputter as their neurons misfire when they’re actually forced to verbalize the place where they want to eat. Seriously, it’s hilarious as fuck. I should videotape this shit.
See, female irrationality doesn’t have to be a pain in the ass. If you develop systems in your life to deflect it, it can actually be a source of quality entertainment.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
LOL
You need to read Dave from Hawaii story on Heartiste 🙂
If anyone wrote a book about all female irrationality, describing in details practical examples as you did, I’m sure it would be longer than the Bible, the Torah and the Coran combined!
Another good example is when a woman is just “dying to see you”, but flakes at the last minute. After it she says “I feel sooo bad because I so much wanted to see you today…”. It used to piss me off, but these days I just take a good laugh, shrug it off and go back to what I was doing.
I’m jealous, I’m a super picky eater and hate it. Not only does it make it difficult to go out to eat with people, but it seems like a very feminine trait.
For having that argument, I read a good solution that I haven’t been able to try out myself yet (I guess women know I’d just go where I wanted if the filibustered too long). The conversation goes something like this:
Man: Where do you want to go?
Woman: I don’t care.
Man: OK (Takes her to place he wants to go)
Woman: I don’t want to eat here.
Man: Bummer (BTW, this is my favorite word in the English language, it’s so useful)
You might have to put up with some drama in the short term, but you think she’s going to play that game again after that (especially if you soft next her if she gives you drama afterwards)?
@POB
Somebody should write that book, it’d be a best seller instantly. Think of all the free advertising it’d get in the media for being “sexist”. I’d read the shit out of that book.
I do something similar with my current girl.
If I don’t have a strong preference, I’ll offer two places for her to choose from. If she doesn’t like either, she has to pick the place. If she waffles at all, I chose and we enjoy our meal.
Usually though, I just pick the spot.
One thing that is strikes me as odd though. I can offer her two options and get a quick choice from her. If it’s three (or more) options, she can’t decide and gets frozen in indecision. What I wonder about is, if that is a female thing in general. Or more specific to her and her claimed ADD.
It’s not exactly irrationality. It’s a lack of self-awareness in saying ‘I don’t care’ and ‘I’ll eat anything’. From the Womanese: “I care greatly. And I disprefer all options equally.”
The and reasons for the dispreference actually have next to nothing to do with food (so ‘I’ll eat anything’ is a non sequitur). The reasons include: We ate there recently; we have not eaten there recently; I dislike the decor; The people who go there are tacky; There are too {many, few} people there. There is a waitress there who {doesn’t like me | thinks I’m fat | thinks I eat too much | thinks I’m anorectic | …..} ….
…
Hi BD.
Just wondering when the next article in your inter-racial dating be published? Thanks.
There’s an easy way to navigate this – with a little help from social media.
First, (if she doesn’t already use it) get her to fire up Instagram. Then have her search under #[name of your city]food. All the 10 millions food pictures of other women in the city will show up. From there she can do her flip flopping.
This appeals to the social part of the female brain – and her can find out what she doesn’t like on her own.
By the by, what the heck is up with women and food photos? It must have something to do with cave women gatherer instinct in the human genome.
@Tony
Maybe a group of scholars with 30 years to spare, LOL. I’d read it too, sure (and laugh my ass off). Of course we should put a hardcore feminist to do the preface. Light the fuse and run my friend!
Another practical way to handle restaurants (it’s ok for movies too) is just saying: “I feel like going to X to eat something…wanna join?”. It does not matter her answer, because after it you say: ” I’m leaving at X:XX am/pm, would love if you could come along”….aaaand you just go (with or without her). If she does not go and complains too much later, there’s always a soft next.
My wife used to pull this shit all the time until I finally just stopped caring. I finally just picked a place at that I knew we’d both like and just go there and ignore her comments. Eventually I decided to try again with her and she of course never had any place she really wanted to go.
So I finally laid down a rule that actually worked out really well and seems to have solved the problem once and for all. It’s simple, if I suggest a place and she doesn’t like it then she has to provide a new place. No, “I’m not feeling that,” or “I dunno what I want.” If she can’t name a place then we go where I want. If she can name something then I have to go with it or counter with another place. Sometimes we’ll go back and forth for a bit but we’re talking about specifics so I can deal with that.
If she just tries to be indecisive then I just remind her of the rules. Usually she’ll gripe a bit but then she’ll either offer a suggestion or shut up. Works great and actually gets results.
That’s the problem. I don’t do drama.
That might work with her, but with multiple women in general it won’t. You’ll offer two options and they’ll dislike both.
That’s just another way of saying it’s irrational. If a man had those same thoughts, he would pause for a minute, think it through, and come up with a place he wanted to go, while avoiding all the places he didn’t.
Considering I write these articles and provide them to the public for free? Whenever the fuck I want.
Haha, I’ve thought the same thing. I think it’s just the female appreciation of aesthetics.
I’ve had so many women take a picture of their food before they ate it. I’ve never seen a man do this. Hilarious.
That method will work if it’s a newer woman or lower-end MLTR, particularly if you don’t live together. But if it’s someone long-term and serious, it won’t work at all. She frown and complain you’re not taking her opinion into account.
Eh, that’s probably the least-bad suggestion I’ve seen in the comments so far but I still don’t love it. Sounds time consuming, and there’s a little drama. I still like mine better.
As a girl, I rarely do this, although I’m very sure I’ve done it before and I’m trying to figure out why. I think it happens because at first, we like the thought of where we go to dinner as being a surprise; it’s exciting! Then once a restaurant is named, our mind suddenly processes it. Maybe we realize we don’t actually have a taste for anything at that place, or just ate there yesterday and start imagining something else that we’d want instead.
It’s very similar to what they say when you use flipping a coin to make a decision. Once the coin decides the outcome, you will suddenly feel either glad or disappointed, which means that maybe deep down in your mind, you had a preference all along, but didn’t initially realize it.
Very similar to my usual method. When she’s “good for whatever”, I bring up three options for her to choose from. She can either pick one of those, give me ONE alternative, or let me pick. Given our general overlap of tastes, we’re never dissatisfied with the selection, and when I choose she loves it.
It does help to learn to read people, too. Lately I’ve been experimenting with rattling off styles of food first and watching her body language for what she wants. After some practice, I’m getting to the point where I can just decide on the exact restaurant she wants, which makes me almost a wizard.
WRT taking photos of uneaten food, I do that whenever I personally prepare a meal that is both visually appealing and delicious. It never hurts to have photographic evidence of your skills.
A well-known Russian blogger has an Instagram account which he only populates with photos from restaurants. But it’s always pictures of his food after he ate it : )
https://www.instagram.com/temalebedev/
Sharing a meal with a woman I like is absolutely a plus, but not a necessity for me to be happy, and I respond accordingly when someone I’m seeing starts exhibiting the behavior you’ve described above. I’m perfectly content staying home and whipping something together, eating leftovers, or even having a bowl of cereal if that’s what it comes to, and I make that clear.
On the extremely rare instances where I really want to go somewhere specific, I’m assertive, and will go even if the person in question doesn’t want to join me. Again, my women know this, and (as a result, I believe) generally jump on board without raising a stink.
By the way, I’m sure some will respond to my approach by saying that it won’t work with high-end MLTRs, OLTRs, or other long-term relationships. I would push back on that and say that it CAN, but depends on the woman. It works very well with my OLTR partner (and we’ve been together for almost a decade), but she is very close to being a true Independent, and I think that helps; she has no problem seeing to her own needs on the occasions where our tastes don’t align.
Heh….oh yeah, I remember my married days. As a bonus, my ex was slightly hypoglycemic – so if she didn’t eat, she’d get all fluttery, so there was extra pressure. God, I laugh at my early “very concerned” betahusband days spending all that time driving around….
Nowadays, I just tell the girl we’re going out – and if she asks where, I’ll tell her “You’ll see” and tell her what appropriate dress level will be. If she’s “picky”, I might ask her what she doesn’t want – but that’s as far as I go.
Otherwise, no muss, no fuss and it’s a surprise. Chicks dig surprises.
I love this because it was always me who suggested a place and my guy who said, “No, I’m sick of that place!” Then I had a realization. This was just going to have to be one of the times I’ll be taking charge in our relationship. There are areas where he is better taking the lead, and some areas where I am better. This is one of them. Finally, I told him not to ask me if he was just going to shoot down everything I said. Then I said that if he wanted me to pick a place, we’re going there, otherwise he can come up with an idea before the question is even asked. So now I’d say about 7 out of 10 times, he’ll ask me, I’ll pick the place *I* want to go, and that’s where we go, no arguing. The other times he says something like, “I’m craving mexican food, let’s go to that one place.” I say okay and we go. So it works out.
This is funny because my standard answer when someone asks where I want to eat is “anywhere that isn’t Mexican, BBQ, or sushi.”
It is much easier to realize your negatives than your positives. So I would suggest asking where someone does NOT want to eat, because it’s more salient. People don’t always know what they want because it involves trying to optimize the best choice among many good alternatives. But they do know what they DON’T want. So I think framing it as a negative makes it easiest.
I don’t think it’s really illogical it’s just true. She could be happy with a variety of good choices, but until a restaurant is named, she can’t decide whether there’s a problem with it. Which might not even be the food but something else she doesn’t like about it, like the music or the lighting (a pet peeve of mine, I can’t stand places that have crappy lighting where one person at a table is practically sitting in the dark and someone else is in a glaring spotlight, or they don’t shade their windows when the sun is setting and blinding everyone, or it’s either too dark or too bright). We all have an embarrassment of options nowadays so it’s hard to pick sometimes. Most downtowns have dozens or hundreds of great restaurants.
@ Tony Stop letting people shame you for being a picky eater. And it is NOT a feminine trait, how ridiculous. It’s genetic and it likely means you can taste more sensitively than others, who can’t taste everything you can. I’m a super picky eater and I won’t let anyone try to shame me about it (which they do, all the damn time). If certain foods tasted to others like it did to me, there’s no way they would eat it either, and anyone who gives in to social pressure to look cool by putting something that tastes like dog shit in their mouth and eating it is the one who should be embarrassed.
I feel strongly about this. Your tastebuds are just more sensitive and finely tuned than someone who treats their mouth like a garbage disposal. I proved this many times as a child in blindfolded taste tests my dad made me do because he didn’t believe I could taste certain things I claimed to…and I passed every test. Also, I’ve noticed that being a picky eater is often correlated with being very logical so it’s just part of your sensory processing wiring and nothing to be ashamed of in the slightest. In fact, don’t call it picky, call it discerning!! Would you be ashamed at having particularly sensitive ears and being really good at hearing things others couldn’t hear, or having a very sensitive sense of smell? Discerning eaters need to stand up for themselves and stop letting people whose eating habits resemble dogs who would eat at the town dump from trying to assert their superiority. 🙂
Because you gals don’t want to make a fucking decision.
But you’re more than happy to shoot down other people’s decisions. It’s easier and more fun.
That’s not bad.
Reminds me of how I named my daughter. I didn’t want to argue forever with her mom on what to name her, so I made her mom come up with a list of 5-6 names she loved, then I picked the name from that list. Worked great.
Still usually won’t work. The guy will pick a restaurant not on her restricted list and she’ll still shoot it down like a hunter shooting a duck.
This post reminds me of an old girlfriend…
Taking her out to dinner was never a problem, until a Mexican restaurant opened near her house. She expressed an interest in going there after we drove past it and I decided to take her there one Saturday night.
Me: “Get ready, we’re going out for dinner.”
Her: *Silence and a frustrated look*
Me: “What?”
Her: “Well, where are we going?”
Me: “The new Mexican place down the street.”
Her: *Silence and a frustrated look*
Me: “What?”
Her: *Moan* “You always just decide where we’re going!” *Sigh* “I wanted us to decide together!”
30 minutes later she was drinking frozen margaritas and talking about how great the new Mexican restaurant was.
With MLTRs/OLTRs I now just go with the “surprise” option when we go for more formal “date” dinners:
Me: “Get ready, we’re going out for dinner.”
Her: “Well, where are we going?”
Me: “Out for dinner. The establishment will suit a skimpy dress and heels.”
Then we just go.
Provided it’s a nice place we haven’t recently been to, this hasn’t produced any complaints or drama. It suits my general style to do this, so the girls seem to expect it. There may be problems with girls in future but soft next should handle that.
A lot of this is down to a woman wanting an alpha male at some times and a beta at others. So generally I find that I can dictate where we are going especially if we haven’t seen each other in a while.
But then out of the blue you’ll get the “I don’t want to go there” but of course no alternative is offered.
I too will eat anywhere so I don’t care where we go. Can’t see why it can be such a problem. Do women in general lack decision making ability in general?
I have actually got half way to somewhere and turned round and gone home owing to a large attack of the sulks from hers truly.
Do we suffer from too much choice?
Now then……what shoes shall I wear? 🙂
Another solution: Always order or go eat Pizza. Pizza is always great 😀
Not on topic, but you say that you don’t verbalize this poly/open relationsip thing until about 3 months but then you just said you have been dating a woman recently and she even knows about this blog already. Isn’t that contradictory?
Agreed. Forgot to point that out, thx.
See though, having direction is a masculine trait. Making decisions is masculine. A woman should not have to make the decision. This is what a man does as the leader.
The feminine knows what it DOESN’T want, not what it wants. I don’t want to have to make the decision and I don’t want BBQ today, but anything else will do. Just don’t let her keep saying no to one thing after another. If she turns down your first choice, just make a decision and take her somewhere else.
I’m actually generally pretty happy with anywhere. I can find something I like at almost any restaurant. So I really don’t care, and if the guy is paying I’m sure as hell not going to argue with him. I like it when he’s just like okay, we are going to eat at xyz, and doesn’t ASK. Or if he asks me for ideas and maybe some input “anyplace you haven’t tried that you would like to try?” but if I don’t have ideas he just figures something out.
My ex husband was awful about this, but he was more feminine in a lot of respects. Like we were both all “I don’t know, where do YOU want to go?” and no one could make a decision. I much prefer the more masculine men that I go out with who are just like hey, I’m going to take you to xyz, I think you’ll really like it, and come up with something. Ideally, something I haven’t tried before!
I know. That isn’t the problem here.
Correct, and very good summation.
Women never have any idea what they want, but they can talk for hours about what they don’t want.
That might be true for you individually, but as I already stated above, for most women “anything but BBQ” is still a lie. He’ll suggest Mexican or whatever and she’ll say ew.
And then put up with her drama about how you should make the decision together and how you don’t care about her feelings, etc. Not a good system (unless the man enjoys drama).
Alright, soapbox time: I’m gonna go further on this and say that nowadays, most grown ass men act like chicks now…worse even! I know people who are MY age who get butthurt about EVERYTHING, pick fights with ANYONE who they think threatens them (I have seen the WORST of this in cold approaching, where boys have pulled fucking GUNS on one another for cockblocking), but then when they are with a chick they are obedient slaves. Both Alpha 1s and Omega MGTOW act like this, especially with the butthurt. Fuck me senseless, that moment where you can talk to chicks on cold approach like they are your boys but then stranger boys get butthurt about the SAME SHIT! I’m getting real sick of alpha 1s and MGTOW who are pretending to be alpha 1s. Even betas are tolerable at this point. At least they just shrug and accept everything, as harmless as they are. My roommate is a massive beta (he almost has to be; he’s autistic), but at least he doesn’t crave drama or get butthurt.
I haven’t really experienced being with chicks who don’t know what they want to do or where they wanna eat. The chick I’m dating now is like “let’s go to ____!” and shit. Maybe southern chicks are different, who knows. College girls, however…Jesus CHRIST!!! You’ll get ADHD just by holding their hand lol
I know. Beta males have become the new standard.
Who does this though? If you asked her, and she said no to whatever you chose first, then you can say, hey, I asked your opinion and didn’t get it so I picked something. I don’t really get how it becomes an argument, but then I have had guys call me “easygoing” and it’s probably because I am generally happy with whatever they choose.
She’ll frown during the dinner, you’ll ask what’s the matter, she’ll say nothing. Then the whole dinner will be ruined because she will be cold. Later on if you don’t push the matter, she’ll say something like you don’t care about me.
You are easygoing because you are in NRE. Let’s see how easygoing you are when you are deep in a relationship.
Hey hey- it has nothing to do with NRE, even my ex husband said I was easygoing. I just am not picky about restaurants. Im not the type of girl that throws a fit about it or gives the silent treatment over something that ridiculous. The only thing that would annoy ME is a guy ASSUMING I was going to act like that and not just picking a freaking restaurant!
Ive seen women act like this. My former brother in law and his wife would go on double dates with us and she would be bitching about wherever we went or take forever to decide on a picnic spot because she didn’t like this one or that one and it would drive me nuts. Just throw down a blanket, anywhere and it makes no real difference to me.
So I know it happens, but don’t put someone else’s irritating personality onto me. Don’t refuse to choose a place because you assume im not going to be happy, when I’m genuinely happy with anything, just like I say.
Well this is what I was doing in the past and it didn’t have a pleasant ending(mostly after NRE) . So maybe you are the exception to the rule but I’ll consider a bigger sample here. The technique does not work when the NRE wears off. And most of them did not have irritating personality, they were women. After some time into the relationship they’ll try to pick even the most ridiculous event.
When I was monogamous, I had women tell me straight up, if a couple does not fight they are not in love. Women that were sweet and were hanging to my every word. You think it has to do with irritating personalities?
@joelsuf: there’s a Goodreads review of In fifty years we’ll all be chicks (Adam Corolla) that says: “I picked up this book because it sounded offensive. In fifty years we’ll all be chicks ? Good. Change I can look forward to.” These are people who seriously think that the best thing men need to do to “liberate themselves” is to finally start acting “normally”, as chicks do.
I think men and women have a very similar potential for problem-solving, decision-making, etc, but that women’s potential is only ever unlocked 1° if they are forced, 2° if some ideology tells them they have to prove something. The rest of the time it remains blocked under all the ADHD, childishness, indecisiveness, and oestrogen. If the rise of the oestrogen man we’re witnessing today had happened long ago, I wonder if we wouldn’t all be living in huts.
FWIW, I think it is wrong to describe women as irrational. The problem is that we men simply want to impart our type of rationality and world view onto them, and they don’t share it, and consequently our logical conclusions don’t match.
Have you ever seen this type of problem on FB?
1 + 2 = 12
2 + 3 = 23
3+4 = 34
6+7 = ??
This sort of thing is popular, and it drives me nuts. Because 1+2 does not equal 12, it equals 3. However, what is happening here is that the problem creator is pretending he can just redefine the meaning of plus and somehow you have to work out what that new, non standard meaning is.
Women are very much the same. They don’t use words or thinking patterns that are the same as you (men) or I, on the contrary they have a different set of axioms they are working from, but within this system they are no less rational than the average man (and since most men are horribly irrational too, that is not much of a compliment.)
You might laugh at this, but if you are familiar with mathematics you will know the story of Kurt Godel. For most of the 19th century mathematics was about pulling together a minimum set of axioms on which all of mathematics could be based, and all the rest logically derived from it. Then Godel produced something called the incompleteness theorem which basically said some stuff is always random, some stuff is true just because it is, and there are different sets of mathematical systems all logically consistent and yet all different.
In the case of the restaurant, on the surface it looks like a discussion about food, much as 1+2 looks like simple arithmetic. But for the woman it isn’t entirely about food, it is about relationship. Really in this case there are two things in play, firstly, she wants you to take the lead in the relationship, because she is female and females like guys to take the lead in relationships, and secondly it is about how well you know her — what is the nature of your relationship? Do you know her? Do you know what she likes? Do you notice her and her preferences? Will you chose something that she likes over something that you want?
You think it is about filling your stomach, she thinks it is a relationship moment. Both are perfectly reasonably analyses of the situation, just that men and women come at it from different world views, emotional structures and goals.
So I don’t agree with this meme out there in the manosphere that “women are irrational”. They are no more irrational on average than men (which isn’t saying much) but their rational systems are based on a different world view and set of constructs than men, and the truly wise man learns to understand how that worldview works. Women’s world view is full of emotions, and “does he love me”, and “what did he mean by that”, and “god I feel fat” things that are generally absent from a man’s worldview. So if you want to learn why women do things and say things, then you need to learn the axioms and processes that they use to decide their actions.
And I might add for the ladies out there, if you want to be happy it makes a lot of sense for you to understand how your guy’s worldview works.
In the case of BD’s reframing approach, it is fine for this particular thing. What he is doing is using his leadership role in the relationship to force his gal to think like a man in this particular situation. Again, that is fine, but it isn’t a good fit everywhere, and although it might work in particular circumstances, it isn’t a good general solution to this problem.
Fraser orr maybe you have to ask yourself. 1+2 =3? If not then you are being irrational. I don’t care if you spin it around but i’m not going into a debate for long hours making me angry in the process for such a simple logical thing. So the people who want to be logical(or make sense of their actions) with women they are welcome to do it, the point is women are irrational and you need to to base your actions on that. Anything else or trying to understand them and you are loosing the game. Every time.
I want to go and eat, i don’t want to make the where to go and eat the basis of “i see a future with you”. You see how irrational it is? Simply you are trying too hard to understand. It won’t get you anywhere.
@Fraser Orr: be very, very careful when you name Kurt Godel and his famous theorem to deduce implications about everyday life. Just like how people use quantum mechanics for similar purposes, these are fields of knowledge where it’s maddeningly easy to slip into mistaken generalizations/reformulations of a very specific theorem from the hard sciences into more palatable language. It’s just a piece of advice I’d rather not expand into, because after the previous debates I will NOT delve into philosophy of science today lol.
Your facebook example is not “false” (as in “it is false that 1+2=12”), it simply uses numeral symbols in a non-numeral way. What men usually call “women’s irrationality” isn’t just that they use different axioms, it’s that, like men but much more than them, 1° they withhold information about their own axioms, and 2° they consider it fair game to change those premises any time it suits them. If you google “the male must never know the rules” you’ll find a meme that develops this in a depressingly accurate way.
Emotions are an acceptable source of axioms, for example, we are emotionally geared towards resisting what constricts our freedom, so we can use the right to freedom (to be defined more precisely, etc), as a premise. But we have a problem if your emotions interfere with your own handling of your “axioms”.
I once proposed a thought expriment to my mum and told her “imagine that you’re forced to choose between killing me and killing 500 babies. If you refuse to choose, both me and the babies die.” After a lot of complaining, she finally said “I’d kill myself” – understandable, but it still means that this would have produced the worst outcome.
Men and women aren’t so alien in their mind processes that one can just surrender to non-judgementalism and say we’re different in our rationality, because both men and women would agree that reason is ultimately about answering questions/ solving problems (that includes academic ones, before you accuse me of being biased towards what’s practical). And I sustain that on average, in a no-pressure state, women’s way of thinking is less conducive to problem-solving than men’s. As I said above, I think the unused potential may actually be equal, and it’s not that women can’t, but that they won’t except in special circumstances (ex 1: all men are dead and they must survive alone, 2: feminist hell-bent on proving a point, 3: exams – you might have noticed how even the most brilliant female students are often much less interested in outside-of-studies brainy stuff than their male counterparts, and they are seldom aware of how what they learn in classes is applicable to everyday life).
In all my dealings with people, it is the most often with women – including very smart ones – that I find myself demanding a pause to the bickering and saying “Ok, wait. I have a proposition. [explains proposition] Might that work ?”. Because even though they’re smart and can use that for their PhD or whatever, they just won’t apply it outside of those spheres and instead love the thrill of socialization.
@hey hey says
Who suggested that? And why on earth would you get angry at something as trivial as that?
I think you missed my point. Women are no less logical than men (which isn’t saying much) but they derive their conclusions from different bases. No long debates necessary, it is about understanding another person. Based on that understanding a man should almost never ask her where she wants to eat. Rather, he should tell her, and taking the responsibility to know what she will like, and choosing with that in mind. And of course not being such a douche that if she doesn’t like your choice, not getting all pissy, rather being man enough to have a couple of back up ideas.
Why does he do that? Because he has taken the time to understand how women think about these things, and adapts his approach to minimize drama and maximize happiness.
It isn’t hard. It is basic politeness. It is about having a set of balls. It is about being in charge. It is about leadership.
Nobody suggested that. It is what happens with most relationships.
And this is exactly my point.
You will lead taking her preferences in mind. She will say something like I don’t feel like that today. Then you will come back with another solution. She will say “Again??”. Then you will say a 3rd option and she will say it’s far. A man who does this and keeps on going with that, will eventually become frustrated and a fight will start. You want to do this? Be my guest. Being in charge means if she shoots down your 3rd option she’ll stay home. If she throws drama she’ll get a next. No getting angry no nothing.
Notice the above scenario happens well into the relationship, the first months/year she’ll be flowery and all smiles when you take the lead.
This is bullshit.
We are biologically still tribal animals. Man brings home meat and fish and woman eats what she gets. The end.
My approach is this: If she is going to make a scene on a regular basis over what to eat as described above, simply for the sake of doing it (as seen from a male perspective), she is defective and gets replaced.
I find complaining and bickering annoying, yes, and they are things that people who have more easily agitated personalities do. When someone says that if a couple does not fight, they are not in love, they are usually talking about fighting over possible loss of the person or relationship- jealousy, possessiveness, things that show they actually CARE, not about bitching about where they are going to eat.
Perhaps this type of complaining is really more of a shit test. Can you pass by not being affected and just making a decision, taking control? I suspect THAT is what it is really about. When I think of the more Alpha men in my life, there is no way they would put up with that.
It is a shit test. Yes the alphas will not put up with that they will get angry, a small fight will ensue and the woman will say later i’m sorry. This is drama. Then it will happen again AND again because the woman is taught by now that her man will get angry if she plays around like that and she loves it. This happens even if she is the most submissive sweet woman around. Beta way or alpha way you will loose the game.
The best way is next her and she’ll learn that she can’t fuck around like that. Next time she’ll cheerfully say yes to the 1st option.
@ hey hey-
Why would you allow this to become an argument? That makes no sense whatsoever. Just don’t take her out to eat if she acts ungrateful. Don’t say a word. Just turn the car around and drive back home. She’ll get the point.
Like I said, I can’t imagine any of the more Alpha men in my life putting up with this type of behavior. Of course, they are always the one paying so they have more leverage, in that respect, than if I were footing the bill or splitting it. They (rightfully) expect appreciation, and they get it.
What do you mean it doesn’t make sense? It happens all the time with couples. I don’t know what you do with your alphas, but if what you say is true then you are not the standard.
A woman will argue over this. Yes, she’ll find a way. Beta way: You are weak, you are not leading. alpha way: You don’t care about me anymore or I’ll shit test you because you made me angry yesterday. Beta way: Back and forth for hours, the result a moody woman. alpha way: you take her where you want after she shoots down your suggestions, the result a moody woman. Or you drive back as you say, give her silent treatment redirect the topic, the result she’ll give you drama the next day(and the reason will be this). No your alphas won’t avoid drama over this in a typical relationship. They will at first, but not deep down the road.
I have to be honest. It’s not just women who do this. My dad and some other males do this as well — however they don’t do the ‘you pick’ routine … more like … they will only go to a place usually if THEY came up with it, even if it’s your neighborhood. Annoying as hell, and I know women to do the same.
I’m not a picky eater, but there are some SHIT places out there in major cities. And again, these “I just want to be the one to decide” people usually pick out the scrubbiest, foulest looking shithole in sight that has 1 star on Yelp.
Sweet and “Compliant” instead of “Complaint”.
Thank you. Fixed.
I don’t approach it like this. Instead, I say something like “I’m starting to get hungry. I definitely want something hearty.”
[wait for her to say whatever].
“I want something steamy with meat in it. Like a stew or maybe pork chops”.
At which point, she’ll usually say something like “Yeah, I think I want something crunchy and I want a big desert!”.
This goes on for a minute until she’s very excited about something. At which point, I say “I think we should go to [type of place that has type of thing she’s suggesting].
About 4/5 of the time I’m met with happy agreement. And even the 1/5 of the other time, she’s not in hostile response mode. I can then just ask her, what she has in mind, and at this point she has something clearly there. I then pull out my phone, pop up Zomato and go that category. We then pick out a new place, every time. I have the filters set so only single $ restaurants show up(I’m also a cheap bastard). We usually glance over a couple and she usually seems a lot more interested in one than the others, which is then the one I suggest.
The whole process takes maybe 5 minutes.
I think part of the reason most of you are getting fights(when only one other person is involved), is because you’re putting her on the spot. Women hate that.
Now I can see why this strategy wouldn’t work in a group, because if anything the other parties would get even more invested in what they want. So I wouldn’t suggest it in that capacity. But it’s always worked really well for me with a single girl. It even works with dominants(though in fairness I only date girls who are on the mild side of this).
Thanks for the food for thought (pun intended). This seems to be an emotional approach as opposed to BD’s more rational way, and mastering this angle of attack is surely key to great relationships with women. Why don’t they come with instruction manuals?.. : )
Jesus. Your method is a hell of a lot of fucking around. I have no interest spending this much time, effort, or thought every time I want to go out to eat. But each to their own.
Most importantly, when women try this silly crap on me, it doesn’t surprise me. I’m expecting it. Because they’re women. It’s how women work. Even the Good Ones™ who are Not Like The Rest™. Unlike betas or Alpha Male 1.0s, I don’t expect women, even intelligent ones, to make sense or be consistent.
Oh really?, really?!
So you aren’t outraged less than half PhD’s in philosophy and hard sciences (different from soft disciplines only for that cheating is way harder. Not, like many boobs think, because they really require more wits) are females?
I suspected you were mysogynistic, now I am sure.
Women (along with Africans) would rule philosophy, if not undergoing discrimination.
People like you, Dragon, are part of the problem.
lulz
Back to non-joky issues.
What your post is about is not always, and not only, irrationality.
It’s shit-testing. Womanly ways to assess and determine the power balance, or imbalance, in a relationship.
Sure enough, it’s done unconsciously, and by instinct, but it still has an important function (as I am sure you know).