What Men Don’t Understand About Female Attraction
This is one of the most important blog posts I’ve ever made. I hope you understand how important this is.
It’s a tough one. It is the single most difficult thing men have trouble understanding about women in relationships. Even very woman-experienced men have trouble with this one. The primary reason is because the concept I’m about to describe goes against logic and masculine thought processes in so many different ways that it’s going to be extremely hard for your man-brain to grasp, no matter how high your IQ is or how educated you are. Even worse, most women don’t even understand this, even though it’s happening within their own minds right at this moment.
Like I said, it’s a tough one. However, if you can get this, it will transform your life.
I thought long and hard about how to convey this difficult concept, and realized that words alone probably wouldn’t do it. Instead, I’m going to take you through a series of charts, step-by-step, to explain what I’m talking about and to make it as easy for this concept to penetrate your logical, manly man-brain as possible.
I’m not being facetious. This concept took me decades to understand myself, and to this day I often forget it, because this concept is so bizarre to my masculine, rational, logical outlook on life.
I’m going to start with the first chart, level one:
This is only the first level of several “levels” that I’m about to explain. I haven’t even gotten to the difficult part yet, and already I’m describing something most men in society don’t understand.
This is the reality that, in a sexual or romantic relationship, the more you comply with a woman’s demands, desires, parameters, and rules, the lower her attraction for you becomes over time. This is beta male 101. If your girlfriend demands you to do this and that, and stop doing this and that and this, and you agree to all of it, her attraction for you drops, at least eventually. She may still love you, she may still want to be with you, but she won’t be quite as turned on by you anymore.
If you’ve read a decent amount of PUA or manosphere books or blogs, you already know this concept, but the typical guy walking around out there has no idea that this is how women work. They think that doing everything a woman says will “make her like me more.” No dumbass, it’s actually quite the opposite. If you keep saying “Yes ma’am” to everything she demands, in short order you’re going to be confused when you try to have sex with her and she’s says she’s not in the mood or too tired. Her attraction for you has dropped like a stone, because you complied with all of her wishes. (There are many biological and societal reasons for this that I’ve described before, but that’s a discussion for another time.)
I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, and you probably don’t either, but it’s how women work whether we like it or not, and whether we understand it or not.
Alright, now let’s dial up the difficultly level a notch and move to the second level:
This is the simple inverse. If she makes a demand and you refuse to go along with it, her attraction for you increases. How much it increases really depends on you, her, and the particular scenario or demand/desire she states. At a bare minimum, refusing to cave in to her demands/desires maintains the attraction she has for you, rather than causing it to drop like the beta male above.
Gently saying no to a woman’s demand actually makes them more attracted to you, or at least maintains the current level of attraction they have. Saying yes to all of their demands reduces attraction.
Crazy, I know, but that’s how this works.
With me so far? Good. Now, we’re really going to jack up the difficultly level and really make your man-brain hurt:
Here’s an example of what this graph is explaining. It’s a very common one; you’re a badass Alpha Male with a long history of banging lots of chicks. You start dating one who is Not Like The Rest™ and get oneitis. One day she demands that you stop having sex with all other woman but her. You reluctantly agree to her demand.
How does she outwardly react? She’s joyful! She throws her arms around you, tells you how much she loves you, gives you a big kiss, then goes off to tell all of her friends and family that she has the best boyfriend in the world and has probably found The One™.
Your logical, masculine man-brain says this: “I did what she wanted. She’s happy now. She loves me. She likes me more now. This is good. I played this one correctly.”
Your man-brain is completely and utterly misreading the entire scenario. As the above chart shows, her outward demonstration of satisfaction has increased, but her attraction has still gone down. She’s happier, yes, because you complied, but her attraction for you as a masculine, attractive man has just dropped a few points. Over time, it will continue to drop.
Moreover, her satisfaction is temporary. Over time, your new condition of compliance will start to bore her. This is why women initiate 70-80% of all divorces and end three-fourths of all boyfriend-girlfriend relationships.
The point is, in that moment where she’s jumping for joy, you don’t see any of these internal machinations. All you see is that she demanded something, you complied, and that made her happy. Your man-brain starts thinking that you should keep on complying with her demands more, so as to make her happier in the long-term. It’s opposite of reality.
Okay. Here’s the final level, the one hardest for your man-brain to understand and remember:
Here’s another example. You start having sex with a new woman and a week later you decide to make her a MLTR, which is perfectly fine. The next day while you’re both hanging out, she tells you she wants you to start calling her every day. She explains that’s what her last (beta) boyfriend did, and the last one before that. She says that’s what a gentleman does and doing it shows her that you consider her important.
Remembering the MLTR relationship rules, you then respond by saying that you’re happy to talk to her sporadically throughout the week, but talking to her on the phone literally every day, seven days a week, is not something you’re interested in doing, nor have time to do, because of your packed schedule. (Internally, you remind yourself that if she was an OLTR, it might be a different story, but an MLTR? Hell no.)
How does she react? She’s pissed! She snorts and starts insulting you, saying that clearly you don’t give a shit about her and are treating her like crap, and that maybe she should go find someone else who “treats her right.” And while she’s sitting there, frustrated and bitching, her attraction to you just shot up 10 points.
Again, you don’t see any attraction at all. It’s all internal, going on behind the scenes. You just see an angry, frustrated, insulted woman that you’re trying to keep in your life. Your man-brain observes what’s happening and says, “I did not do what she wanted. Now she’s upset. She doesn’t like me anymore. I just made a big mistake.”
And once again, your man-brain is completely wrong. Even though she’s frustrated and upset, she’s also attracted. That’s right; these two things are happening inside her at the same time.
This is why millions of men all over the world are completely confused as to why women date assholes that they (the women) always complain about. That’s because often, not always but often, attraction and frustration come together in the same package, at the same time.
Your brain doesn’t work like this. Unless you’re an exception to the rule, when a woman you’re seeing acts like a “bitch” (in your eyes), it doesn’t attract you at all. It either turns you off or it maintains the attraction you have for her without increasing it. If she doesn’t adhere to your demands, you’re going to get so turned off that you’ll either dump her or you might keep having sex with her if she’s really hot, but you’re going to downgrade her to FB. I’ve done both of these things many times myself.
But…Always?
So does that mean that in order to maintain attraction, you never comply with anything a woman asks for or demands?
The answer is: it depends on the type of the relationship; FB, MLTR, or OLTR.
If she’s a FB, you never comply with anything she asks, ever. She’s an FB, and if she doesn’t like it, she’s free to leave you and go have sex with some other guy.
Doing this results in FBs who are hugely attracted to you. Over time, if you do this correctly, you’ll have a large portfolio of FBs who constantly come and go (between monogamous beta male boyfriends and/or husbands) because they are so attracted to you because you never comply with anything they ask for or demand (assuming they ask for anything; FBs know they’re FBs so they usually won’t). You’re not an asshole with these women of course; you’re still a happy and polite guy. You’re just a happy and polite guy who is really good at nicely saying no. (This is the opposite of the beta male, who is a happy and polite guy who says yes to everything.)
Your FBs can’t really complain about it either because the two of you aren’t dating; you’re just friends with benefits. This is one of the many reasons why FBs are so enjoyable and drama-free.
If she’s a MLTR, you also don’t comply with anything relationship related or demands that she gives (unless they’re within the standard nonmonogamous relationship rules), however, the situation is a little more complicated (though not as tough as it sounds). With a MLTR, you’re going to be demonstrating a lot more romantic-ish behaviors than with a FB, so the MLTR will be getting at least some of her Societal Programming and Disney desires fulfilled. This is unlike the FB who doesn’t get any of that stuff. That takes some of the pressure off. Things like dates and spending the night are okay with these women.
However, for the same reasons, it’s more likely that a MLTR will demand boyfriend behaviors which will make her satisfied and temporarily happy, but will murder her attraction for you in the long run. (This desire to demand boyfriend stuff is doubled if she’s over the age of 33.)
You have to stay strong and nicely, gently, say no. And she’ll get frustrated, and her attraction for you will skyrocket even if she looks pissed off. Again, this is how women work.
What about an OLTR? With an OLTR, yes, you’re going to have to comply on some things, assuming you want a relationship that lasts longer than 6-24 months. (If you honestly don’t care if the relationship ends sooner than that, then you can ignore all this advice and do whatever you like.) An OLTR is a girlfriend or wife, and under those conditions, you must make some compromises, not a lot, but some, to maintain relationship longevity and harmony. As I’ve talked about in my books, you need to keep these compromises infrequent and minor, but you do need to make some of them. If you never want to do this, you should never have an OLTR.
Doesn’t this mean her attraction for you will drop when you do this? Sadly, yes, at least a little. This is the price you pay for long-term pair-bonding. A woman in an OLTR relationship with a guy for three years is going to be less sexually attracted to him than a woman in a FB relationship with a guy for three years, even if it’s the same guy.
I didn’t say that OLTR woman doesn’t still deeply love the man, care for the man, want to be with the man, or have a deep, spiritual connection for the man. That can all still be true. The issue is that love and connection are different than attraction. When that guy goes to have sex with that OLTR woman, her horniness for him will be at least a little less than any other woman in a FB or MLTR relationship with a man who isn’t complying with her demands at all.
If a guy in an OLTR gets complacent or lazy and complies with most or all of her demands, at that point he’s simply in a de faco monogamous relationship. It’s a very common scenario with Alphas. Her attraction for him eventually plummets into the abyss. Drama and/or a breakup is quick to follow, just like it would with a beta.
This is why an OLTR can be such a complicated dance at times. You have to comply just enough to maintain harmony and a long-lasting relationship, but not too much that it creates drama, betaization, bullshit, sexual boredom (on her part), demands and breakups. It’s not always easy. I’ve been in an OLTR for most of this year, and it definitely takes more attention to pull this off than with FBs and MLTRs, which I’ve always considered near-effortless. (Side note: I’ll be discussing this woman and our relationship in greater detail next week. A lot of you guys keep asking me for details about this. Check back next week and I’ll tell you all about it.)
But Won’t She Leave?
If you have a FB or MLTR to whom you’re not complying with at all, won’t she eventually get pissed off enough to leave you, even if she’s still attracted to you? YES. That’s exactly what an LSNFTE is. They’re very normal and typical. However, in your focus on what happens, you’re forgetting the reason why this happens, and the end result of what happens. She leaves you not because she’s not attracted to you, but because she’s frustrated with you. There’s a huge difference in how these two things eventually play out.
This is why I have a 94% return rate for women who leave me, versus the typical beta male who never gets to have sex, ever again, with his traditional, monogamous ex-girlfriend who dumped him. They dumped me because they were frustrated with me. She dumped him because she wasn’t attracted to him anymore. A woman isn’t going to fuck you if she isn’t attracted to you, so if that monogamous beta tries to get with his girlfriend again, he’s likely going to fail.
But if my ex-FBs and ex-MLTRs are all still attracted to me, all I have to do is wait a few months or perhaps about a year or two, and they’ll be right back to me once they get bored with their current boyfriends or husbands who are complying with everything they want and murdering her attraction.
In other words, if a woman leaves me because she’s frustrated but still attracted to me, I don’t care at all, and consider that a win. There’s a 94% chance she’ll be back to have sex with me again. Yet if a woman dumps you because she’s not attracted to you any more, that really sucks and you blew it, because that’s likely a permanent loss. By complying with everything she demanded because she looked happy when you did it, you’ve ensured you’re never going to see her naked ever again now that she’s dumped your ass. Since, statistically speaking, women are going to eventually dump you / divorce you at some point anyway, you might as well ensure that when it happens, it happens for the least-bad reasons and for the highest odds of her returning to you.
I hope I’ve been able to explain this in a way that makes sense. As I said, if you truly get what I’ve just described and put it into practice in your life, it will transform your entire relationship life, or perhaps your whole life altogether.
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is there a date,time after which you reduce compliance for FB ,MLTR
if less compliance after third,fourth dates
or even from first date itself
requests like where to meet ,what to eat convenient to both ? or only conveniet to YOU
any specific compliances requests to say NO ,for FB vs MLTR from your experience
few specific examples you can include
yup – women like confident guys who don’t pedestalize nor always comply.
Betas complain that women go for assholes, but women go for them because of their confidence and non-compliance/non-pedestalizing, and DESPITE asshole behavior. You can be confident and non-pedestalizing WITHOUT being an asshole, that’s even better.
Women too complain that guys go for bitches/shallow women. In reality, guys go for attractive/hot women, DESPITE their bitchiness/shallowness. If a girl can be hot and not shallow/not a bitch, that’s even better.
Yep. Just had an MLTR leave me the day after we spent Thanksgiving together because I won’t be monogamous with her. I just shrugged my shoulders wished her the best. Since then she’s been texting nonstop. I’ve pitched a couple meets, but she won’t see me (yet). So now I’ll just ignore her for a while until the eventual meetup. Amazing to see in practice.
Haha not me. If a chick wants to put on that kind of front, then I’m good. I’m not gonna waste my time trying to “disarm” a chick. Fortunately, chicks usually get that read off of me right out of the gate so I don’t have to worry about it usually. And sometimes they will change their demeanor around me within seconds. I see this a lot in college chicks and chicks under 33 in general. They’ll talk shit to a scrub, see me laugh at them, and then we’ll laugh at the scrub together. Subcommunication and nonverbals are important. If you present yourself like a desperate scrub, then you’ll encounter more “bitchy” chicks.
Its funny, when I declared myself “involuntary celibate” in my early 20s, nearly 3 of every 5 chicks I encountered were really standoffish and not very approachable at all. But now that I possess more knowledge of self and outcome independence, chicks who are more attractive than the ones I talked to in my 20s are approachable, friendly and open to me flirting with them.
Please don’t comply with every single request that is gross. It is the most nauseating thing to see in a man even at work do. I just want to note as a woman I admit that reading the above was hilarious as it felt like I was totally figured out. And I think that being able to control a man means that anyone can control him (woman) and what woman wants a man where she has to constantly wonder is his mother another woman pulling his strings?? Its a bad idea to reproduce with someone we can control totally or who disregards us completely. We create drama and chaos sadly as a test to see if you guys are capable of standing your ground under pressure …I know its sad but I can’t help it I’m not sure about other women but I’ve tried to stop…sometimes men get this too in that case its like reactive attachment disorder lol
..The only thing I would say and maybe this was explained somewhere else in the different types of ways you treat women based on relationship type but not complying with emotional/physical prompts while at the same time being non compliant is a bad thing….not sure if that makes sense. But like if she reaches out to you for affection or sex or comfort while you’re in her presence like don’t play with that. I guess it would depend though if she was someone you wanted to keep around long term in a some type of commitment. But again I don’t know all the relationships type but I suppose this would be one where you actually cared about the woman beyond sex.
“What Men Don’t Understand About Female Attraction”
Or, better
“What Men Refuse to Believe (or Act On) About Female Attraction”
Despite all I have learned and the success I have had, I still have trouble giving the concept the weight it deserves.
Its seems the article describe a mating strategy to secure a high quality husband/protector/father for the offsprings and exclude the non-suitable canditates.
Thanks for another gem, BD.
This largely rings true to me, but I’ve been around the (monogamous) block many times.
This post is extremely helpful, as it gets to the point of one of the harder aspects of getting to an Alpha 2.0 lifestyle. I am seeing a woman and for the most part following the rules (still waiting on my pics to come back for an OKC blast). She is absolutely frustrated with me. She wants more contact, would prefer I not be dating others, etc…..but she leaps at the chance to hang out. That frustration you’re talking about, we recovering betas are virtually hard wired to assuage. I’m burning that tendency off as we speak, but I’ll tell you what, it’s been so much fun to have access to a woman and do whatever I want whenever I want to. I don’t know if the novelty will ever wear off.
The one thing I will add is this, and it’s something you’ve said over and over: We men need to keep our fucking mouths shut. It adds to the attraction, and it adds to the frustration. Relationship talk with women is like bringing a knife to gunfight. I think that concept blends will with the point of this post.
Great post, BD. Definitely one of the hardest lessons to fully assimilate.
I’m wondering about a subtlety of this.
If a woman asks you for something that you genuinely like the sound of (e.g. she asks you to go to an event you really would like to attend, she suggests a sexual activity that sounds interesting, etc.), do you still lose points for complying?
My logical brain says you shouldn’t, since you aren’t actually giving up frame, but my experience suggests that you do anyway.
This would suggest a strategy of default contrariness to all requests, even if you intend to “have the same idea later”.
Your thoughts?
Great content as usual BD. I have an interesting “demand” out of my current MLTR…
After sex last weekend she told me “We need to have sex at least 3 times per week even if I’m on my period!”. I’m not usually one to turn down (great) sex, but I replied “We’ll see, my latest project is keeping me busy during the week”.
I suspect because I have a decently non-monogamous “frame”, she is aware that I’m seeing other women and wants to drain me of my sex drive. My plan to deal with her demand is to continue only seeing her once per week, and have all the sex she wants only during that time.
This is a high-quality problem, but still a problem. My question to you is: Have you had a similar experience with FBs/MLTRs demanding to see you more and even trying to “monopolize” the sex you’re having with other women? If so, how have you managed this ?
P.S. Keep up with sharing your knowledge!
Is there any truth to the idea that the more a woman wants to hook up with you the more shit she will give you?
I’m the kind of person who loses attraction to a girl if shes bitchy.
@JudoJohn
“Relationship talk with women is like bringing a knife to gunfight.”…great line man. Guys would be wise to follow this advice. I don’t attempt to engage women in this type of talk anymore. I just smile and tell them how cute they are when they’re mad. Women are far better equipped to have these kind of talks and spend their whole lives perfecting the skill.
Take a look at unselected cases
You’ll find love has been wrecked
By both sides compromising
Amounting to a disastrous effect
You hear stories of old
Of princes bold
With riches untold
Happy souls
Casting it all aside
To take some bride
To have the girl of their dreams
At their side
But not me
I couldn’t do that
Not me
I’m not like that
I couldn’t sacrifice
Anything at all
To love
I really like you
I’m attracted to you
The way you move
The things you do
I’ll probably burn in hell
For saying this
But I’m really in heaven
Whenever we kiss
But Oh no!
You won’t change me
You can try
For an eternity
…
Depeche Mode – Stories of Old
Laughing and nodding my head throughout this post. A bit unfortunate, but all true.
This is key IMO.
Once you learn to better distinguish between a woman being bitchy, disrespectful or giving you drama because you’ve slowly become more of a wimp and too attached (and she’s lost/losing attraction) VS an angry, frustrated, even spiteful women who is STILL highly attracted to you (or hasn’t lost any attraction), then you’re on the next level.
Had to be one of the articles so far!
So yes nexting chicks is okay for me in that sense.
Obviously we want to keep women’s attractiveness for us as high as we can (without making an ass of ourselves for the sake of our reputation of course), but there is no sense in doing so in way that is harmful long term to our lives.
The really questionable and complicated areas has got to be when it comes to very serious issues where compliance traits are to our advantage and obviously warranted. Issues such as when somebody is in the hoispital, having kids with us and in a serious relationship, ETC. Basically stuff where it’s in our interest/very serious situation long term to be compliant. In many ways being a good parent has many compliance behaviors in it. So how do you stay attractive in these situations?
Caleb your thoughts?
@James
That’s when the frustration goes up also with the attraction (on not going down) as BD says. And also the hardest scenario of all when you don’t have internalized all the Alpha 2.0 frame.
Whatever scenario is it, don’t give up.
Women aren’t stupid. When you genuinely enjoy the event and flirt with pretty girls should any appear nearby, is she going to get bored with you?
Women aren’t stupid. If she has an emergency (a real one), won’t she value your quick and decisive action? You’ll have a chance to disobey her later (“No, you’re safe now, I won’t hold your hand any longer, I have work to do”).
The part I struggle with is where it’s something I enjoy and now I need to refuse because she asked. While if she did t ask I would have invited her to join me. Say, we both enjoy going to a sex club but I’ve been busy lately. I have a free weekend coming up and she goes:’want to go to the sex club?’ And now I have to go ‘no, sorry’ instead of ‘sure!’ Even though I was about to ask her the same thing. (Replace sex club with any other activity) same as the guy asking about the concert…
I don’t have a good answer here, though.
BD has good insight and has helped me to think about this subject deeper. Although I disagree with him routinely and his characterizations he has a lot of nuggets. Some additional thoughts from me that BD helped me generate are below:
If we say NO to a women for the sake of saying NO and to increase attraction and frustration then to me that is creating drama and playing games. I think some gamesmanship is good though so don’t get me wrong.
The problem is we start saying YES to a women when this is not want we want deep inside. So we start projecting a false identity to the women. If we are in touch more with ourselves then we are honest to them of what we want and this can turn them on. By complying and being who we are not to them can be a turn off.
It is about be honest with ourselves and communicating this to our partner, even at the cost of creating pain. The problem is we lie all the time.
If a woman asks you to go to a venue that you want to attend then say yes but make her pay for the entire evening.
Great article Caleb. Really integrated a few key concepts for me. Thank you!
You’re talking about the dating/seduction phase, which is before you have sex with her twice. Slightly different rules apply to that phase; I’m only talking here about the relationship phase, once you’re already having sex regularly.
Yep. Compliance is one of the biggest turn-offs to women, even when women demand you do it.
True. That’s why I said this is one of the hardest concepts for men to understand and remember.
Sometimes I forget this stuff myself (though not often; I’ve had a lot of practice!).
At least partially true, yes. There are a lot of biological reasons for this.
I’m no anthropologist, but I’m in strong agreement with the reporting done by many of these guys that state in pre-agrarain times, the biological father of a child was one guy (an Alpha in the tribe) but the dad/caregiver man was a completely different guy (one of the betas in the tribe).
That alone would explain all of this.
I’ve answered that question a thousand times, and the answer is still the same: YES!
Yes, yes, yes, YES, YES, YES!!!!
The mental reason you engage in beta behaviors is completely irrelevant. They still cause the same problems.
It’s like asking “But what if I honestly want to shoot a half a gallon of heroin into my body every day? Will it still be bad for me?”
Obviously sexual positions are okay; those aren’t boyfriend behaviors, but all the other stuff I talk about here, YES.
Only with certain female personality types. I’ve slept with a large number of women and only a tiny percentage “gave me shit.”
I addressed that in the article. That’s OLTR or OLTR Marriage stuff. You comply a little, just enough to keep the relationship long-lasting and harmonious, and not one inch more, even if she asks, which as a woman she probably will.
Gene Simmons had a wide open OLTR Marriage for over 25 years (before he betaed himself when he got old and lost his balls). That’s an example of giving just enough compliance to keep her around and keep her happy, but not enough to murder attraction enough where the relationship suffers.
Grammar nazi coming through! Hey dumbass, you misspelled frustration in the fourth chart! lol
Ribbing aside, this has got to be one of the most important concepts in seduction. Have to admit, you did a good job of presenting it. I like how you categorize everything, chop up the theory and present it in bite-sized and wrapped up chunks.
If most scientists and psychologists weren’t so (beta?) this would have been obvious to everyone. That’s what happens when a concept is too holy to be questioned (Like the concept of god). Seriously, it’s so scientific that there should be a name for this theory. I propose “The paradox of female attraction”. Someone go ahead and latin-ize that…
Understandably, this would be a lot for the average Joe to comprehend. The third “level” makes things very complicated and deceptive. NRE filled men would outright refuse the theory.
To answer the question in the discussion, IMO as long as her request/demand doesn’t break BDs rules on relationships and she knows that you want to do it, it’s okay to
complygo along with an MLTR or OLTR‘s wishes, sporadically. (So your frame is still tight)This question is in the same vein as the money spending dilemma. Even if you’re filthy rich, you should be very careful with how much money you spend on your women. As doing so will make her see you as a walking wallet rather than a dick she wants to impale herself on. Although willingly going along with a MLTR or OLTR‘s wishes is less of a serious dilemma.
@blackdragon
Freaking awesome article and is spot on.
The part I have the hardest time with is when my OLTR demands sex of me AFTER I don’t comply and she is turned on.
For example, just last night she bitched about something and I agreed with her that I was a horrible BF and did not comply w her demands.
I had taken my Ambien and was getting sleepy. Next thing I know is she is getting naked and on top of me. So, this alone proves your point that non compliance leads to attraction.
But I wasn’t in the mood after the demands she was making and almost asleep too. Additionally, when she is tired, she can say no to sex so seems this road should go both ways but we know it doesn’t.
It is very rare that I turn down sex btw so it’s almost like she knew I would and wanted something else to create drama but maybe she was really turned on cuz I didn’t comply?? Lol
Your thoughts on this please?
@CurtsNOKC
Refuse. Even if it’s sex. Touch her the next day, then send her to take a cold shower. Then see what it does to her attraction. Should be fun…
@pyro magus
I did refuse so let’s see what happens today. But it’s definitely the trickiest part to handle cuz being strong does turn them on for sure.
It’s almost like I want her to make demands so I can say no so we can have more passionate sex! Crazy I know….lol
Thanks for advice
While I can actually agree with what BD is saying in an overall context, I have to say some of the examples in the comments are silly. You can’t go arguing with everything just to be difficult and try to show how “alpha” you are. That just comes across as tryhard game playing and immaturity. If she says I would love to go to xyz restaurant tonight and you say that sounds good to me too, she isn’t going to lose attraction for you. It’s when you bend your will to hers over things you actually don’t want to do that she will pick up on it and lose respect for you. It’s less about compliance and more about standing up for yourself as a man.
Hm. My attraction to my man seems to be much more strongly linked to how much control of my life and behaviour he is trying to exercise (possibly because I don’t issue (m?)any demands, so there’s little for him to be compliant with). The more controlling he is, the less I’m attracted and vice versa – please note the opposite of “controlling” isn’t “disinterested”.
If I need his help, I ask for it politely, but I don’t take it for granted. He then helps me whenever he can, which doesn’t change the level of my attraction to him – for better or worse. It does keep the relationship going, though, as without being there for each other, what would the point of the relationship be?
In our case he is the one pointing out I think too much in terms of “I” and “you” while he prefers to think in terms of “we”. His natural inclination obviously is to make the decisions on “our” behalf, which in the past led to serious trouble. Recently he has learnt to be less pushy and I have learnt that if I want our relationship to work, I need to invest time in us, too, outside fulfilling our sexual and communication needs…
@BD
This is one of those posts I have to completely agree with you.
I used to keep a record of the number of activities I complied with FB‘s and MLTR‘s everyday in my journal. I consistently observed that whenever the number of activites I complied rose, the relationship started gradually going downhill.
I’ve already internalized all of the concepts you mentioned in this post and I’m 100% sure it fucking works.
One thing I’ve noticed is that this concept didn’t work in the initial stages of a relationship..or atleast until the novelty becomes the routine.
@lovergirl
Fake and pretentious alphas do that. They’re obviously betas anyway.
This post is at the “top” level of the learning pyramid . It requires you to master the concepts at the”basic” level first. For example, learning frame, the art of indifference and being an alpha 2.0 are the “basics”
@CurtsNOKC
Yep, gotta fuck her mind before her body. lol
Teasing is fun if you can outlast her. As you probably know, teasing is a two-headed blade. You’re teasing yourself as you’re teasing her.
@Lovergirl
Hmmm… I don’t think that’s the issue. While maintaining frame is still important here, I’d also add that putting a price on compliance will still benefit men in an MLTR. There should always be a challenge. I wouldn’t say never like BD, but sporadic, yes.
Would BD be kind enough to elaborate on his “Never say yes” position? Should we say no for the sake of saying no every single time? Obviously, we’re talking about non-beta behaviours not things like texting her a lot or expensive dinners.
Really well worded article BD. Easy to digest. Thanks. 🙂
I disagree about one thing – this concept of Compliance vs Attraction is not that tough to me to understand or do anymore. I just do the opposite of what the old Beta Curtis used to do if I ever get stuck.
I think the most difficult thing to do in all this Alpha world is learning and actually implementation of the Soft nexting for weeks and/or only seeing a chic one time a week!
However, this article is probably the most intriguing and fun lol.
@Pyro Nagus
Grammar Nazi you missed one. He also miss spelled satisfaction in chart number 3.
And actually it is not a grammar mistake it is a spelling mistake or perhaps just a regular old typo.
BD isn’t talking about that. BD is talking about straight up leaving if she wants him to do stupid boyfriend behaviors. Controlling chicks used to be alpha but now its beta. Or OBW or whatever BD calls it.
And IMO, chicks don’t deserve that much attention to begin with. I’d rather just have a whole bunch of one night stands and then take occasional time off than jump through over 9000 hoops and maintaining an open relationship. That’s just me though.
The correlation between frustration and attraction is reflected in body language. The next time you tease a girl or resist compliance, watch her facial expressions. The first will be a “I can’t believe you just said that” look, quickly followed by a “I want to fuck you” look.
I agree with Pyro on this one. I had a similar issue last week with a FB: I wasn’t feeling the sex (she was being lazy), so I cut it short and went to sleep. When she tried to have sex with me again the following morning, I was still tired and slept in. She got upset and left without saying anything. I ignored her, and now she’s hitting me up again. I have a feeling she won’t be as lazy the next time we meet up.
Refusing to have sex with a woman is likely to do more damage than help. If you think it’s problematic when a woman refuses sex, it’s much worse on the other end of the spectrum. A woman’s ego is extremely fragile when it comes to her attractiveness to a man sexually. You risk very quickly being cut off for good if you make her feel unsexy. Refusing sex as a “punishment ” and to manipulate someone is bad coming from either sex and decreases attraction.
@Just Curious
I am defeated, clearly you are the superior grammar Nazi! Lol, grammar Nazi is more meme-y so I’d use that.
I don’t think these nuances about willing compliance really matter as much as we’re giving it credit. As long as your alpha frame is well established in her mind, willingly complying doesn’t hurt.
What not do:
Girl: “I’m bored. Can we please go out?”
Me: “Well shit, I was just about to but since you asked…NO!!!”
Girl: “Ahh… Yes, harder.”
Me: “NO!”
What to do:
Response: “Have you been a good girl?”
Girl: “Yesh!”
Response: “Alright then, we can go to…”
Response: “You can’t handle harder, it would need more of your spit…”
Lol, I’m getting loopy.
@Lovergirl
No no no no…teasing, not refusal. Teasing!
Hell, even refusal is can be good sometimes. It can be a good way to encourage her to bring it up a notch. It’s a bit like negging but more lethal. And I’d argue that it’s more likely to work. In the heat of the moment she’s likely dying for release. Compare that to the stoic abstinence of her alpha mate. She’d collapse and empower him.
It takes the right attitude and frame to pull it off.
Denying someone sex is not “teasing”. Do you consider it “teasing” when a woman you are involved with won’t fuck you? Massive turn off.
This is what I mean. Men on this very thread are taking a premise that is is true to an extent, in some situations, and applying it to things they shouldn’t.
If a woman is demanding or challenging you then please don’t give in to her. Just like you wouldn’t give in to a bratty child.
That doesn’t extend to situations that should be obvious, like if she’s asking if you want to go to a concert that you both want to see or making a sexual request.
No one loses attraction to a guy because he said yes to “fuck me daddy” lol. The same holds true for a reasonable non-demanding suggestion- Im really hungry for Mexican tonight, how about you?
When she loses attraction is when he turns into a “yes dear” or “anything you want/what do YOU want to do guy ” that can’t stand on his own two feet or lead and make decisions.
Depends on if you like Mexican.
Right and if you don’t want it you should say no. But you shouldn’t say no just for the sake of saying no or because you are making it into some sort of power struggle when it’s not. That’s drama.
One new girl sent me this, the night before our first date:
“i’d like to give you a sensual massage then have you dominate me, how does that sound to you?”
I thought: Oh… she’s giving me permission to dominate her? what kind of BS is that? I’ll look like an idiot saying yes, following her plans, even though it’s exactly what I want to do, fuck.
The Correct Answer: “I think we’ll have a good time”
Lesson: Deflect/Avoid your “Yes” answers as needed, be non-committal, imply something else could happen. As Caleb says: Don’t verbalize!
It is a power struggle. It’s always a power struggle. Games within games. But we’re catching on.
Yep, it’s a biological/sociological game. No one should be “punishing” anyone. It’s just moves and counter moves in a mating ritual, like spiders and peacocks do.
Being raised by a fucking hippy set me back about 20 years. I’ve made up the ground, though, in part with the help of a very hot, VYW who was sharp as hell and totally realistic (after the first two months). I know I’ll never fuck her again because I did pretty much everything she told me to. No regrets, my (recent) degree and new career got me into the middle class, but I had some very rough edges……she got me into the middle class socially by scouring those edges down, so it’s all good. No woman will ever have that privilege again, I monk moded it for a few months to make sure I didn’t hand that power to any other woman.
@Five Six or anyone else
Let me get your opinion on something – is it ok to verbalize our emotions when we feel they say something rude or mean to us?
I had a chic say one of the most rude things to me other day and I couldn’t believe it. She asked me what the “perks” where to her dating me? Then she wants to have sex!
I denied it and verbalized how I felt that was very mean to say. (I was on Ambien too which changes normal behavior).
I’m didnt act dramatic or anything. Just kissed her and rolled over and went to sleep. More so just shocked about the comments really.
But my question is, did I f*ck up by even letting her know (verbalizing) that she hurt my feelings and letting her know she is the asshole vs me?
Generally, she is calling me the asshole, which is what I prefer lol 🙂
Love Girl is very active here. In here first comment she summed up in better words what I was trying to say about the absurdity of saying no for the sake of saying no in my first post at 10:15am.
Here is an example of non compliance that turned on one of my GF today at lunch; I think reading this article in morning helped me react in the way I did to her.
I asked her if she wanted a coffee; and she said NO, but want a glass of some warm milk. I said NO I am not getting that for you it is unhealthy and turned away (which it is for adults BTW).
Later I got a texted from her and she cited that event, as well as being turned on.
It is about BEING WHO YOU ARE, not being fake or creating drama. Saying NO can be fake if it comes from the wrong place.
There are many opportunities to say NO to women and be who you are.
joelsuf – Rule Number 4 of this blog states that you can’t feed trolls. You certainly can’t encourage them; now you’ve used up all your lives. If you feed a troll one more time, even if it’s an “oops by accident” thing, you’ll be banned. If wish to continue posting here I suggest you pause and think before you type.
Pyro and Curious – Thanks for pointing out those dumbass errors. I’ve corrected them. I wish my flowcharting software had spellcheck. 🙂
Having sex isn’t a boyfriend behavior. It isn’t even a romanticish behavior. So having sex when she wants to have sex is just fine unless you literally don’t want to have sex. If you don’t, then don’t. (I’ve never not wanted sex in my entire life so I can’t relate to feeling like that.)
I generally agree. That’s provided the guy would love to go there anyway.
The scenario changes when, for example, she wants to go to an expensive restaurant that he doesn’t want to (or can’t) pay for. Or she wants to go to a type of restaurant that she knows he hates. In those cases, his agreement would indeed reduce attraction a little. But a casual place she knows he likes and wouldn’t mind going to, sure.
You ask yourself three questions:
1. Is this a boyfriend behavior?
2. Is this romanticish behavior?
3. Do I actually want to do this, even if she wasn’t around, i.e. would I do this anyway?
If the answers to the questions are no, no, and yes, the you’re probably okay in saying yes. If they’re not, it’s probably not okay (unless you like drama).
This is sometimes true; it is not always true. Women can indeed exhibit 100% negative body language and still be attracted.
Well, as you said in your later comment, it depends on if the guy actually wants to have sex at that moment or not. I’ve literally never turned down sex from a woman I was attracted to in my entire life (unless I was soft nexting), so I can’t relate to the guys above who said they didn’t want sex because they were tired or she was being lazy or whatever. Yet, if a guy doesn’t want to have sex, and he’s in a nonmonogamous relationship, then he has every right to say no to sex if he legitimately doesn’t want it. If she doesn’t like it, she can go fuck someone else. (Or dump him.)
Okay, that was some good shit….Worth a 2nd and 3rd read…
Thank You,
Alright, I can work with that. If she’s asking me to do something that fits my frame and budget that I want to, I probably do it.
@Lovergirl
Don’t worry, we’re men, thus horny horndogs. We’d never leave women with proverbial blue balls for too long. Flat out denial has to have a good reason, I assure you (Wife sex, laziness, transactional sex, etc)
It’s good to keep her on her toes.
@CurtsNOKC
Hmm…or you could have acted like an egomaniac and answered: “My holy presence! Be grateful for it. ;)”
BD I will kiss your ass a little bit here
I found your articles very innovative and intelligent, you should be a anthropology professor in some uni LOL
Anyway have you found out all this stuff from your own experiences or you also read and study about these matters? If yes, from which sources?
@ pyro nagus-
Just be aware that refusing a woman sex,drastically increases the chance she is going to take the option bd mentioned and fuck someone else. If you make her feel bad by rejecting her she will also start to feel turned off by sex with you. That is precisely why I ended up cheating in my marriage.
How can a woman be “lazy” in bed anyway? What are you expecting her to do? Dominate you?
@CurtsNOKC
“Let me get your opinion on something – is it ok to verbalize our emotions when we feel they say something rude or mean to us?”
I think it’s more important to do a soft next if appropriate, instead of worrying about verbalizing. If you’re all hurt/pissed off and then continue to spend the night with her, that’s bad.
Mind this pitfall: https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2014/01/26/the-one-way-to-go-too-far-with-sex-talk/
I think another good rule of thumb is making your decisions “pay their own rent” so to speak. Whatever you are agreeing to with any woman, would you enjoy doing this anyway?
A good example is when people move for a significant other. If not for this person, would you want to move anyway and would you pick the same location? If yes, then it’s ok because even if the relationship doesn’t work out, you’re in a place you wanted to be anyway. If the answer is no, then don’t do it, period. You’ll just resent her in the long run.
I ran into this a few times-girls asking me to move to some city I had no desire to live in, nor did I want to leave my current homebase since I enjoy living here. I declined, they pouted and LSTNFE’d me for some schlub that happily agreed to all her demands.
You slay me. Just slay me. I guess the guys here are of varying levels of sexual proficiency. I hope the less competent ones don’t take from your comment that women can’t be lazy in bed…..they can be damned lazy, esp. in the context of LTR‘s. I have had very lazy sex with LTR‘s….not that it was all on her, but we all (should) know that both genders can be very lazy in bed.
But I’m with Lovergirl on this – how could a woman be lazy in bed? Obviously if she’s just laying there not making a sound. Well maybe that’s what he meant; maybe she was just laying down flat and not doing anything at all…….but I certainly can’t even imagine a guy being lazy in bed! What that must be like I have no idea.
I’m a pretty good lover. Why? Because I pick up on cues. A woman in bed who is lazy doesn’t give off the cues, doesn’t get involved, etc. You both know good sex, you can’t fool me.
Yes you can. Do you cum every time before he even gets started?
Reading some of the comments, I’m not sure how some of you guys ever get laid. BD was not suggesting you say no to a woman for the sake of saying no, be it for sex or anything else. He is saying, if you act like a pushover and comply with a woman’s every demand, she will eventually see you as the wuss you are and lose attraction for you. Don’t over think this.
@Pyro Nagus
I can’t believe you would refuse sex just because she’s asking. That’s definitely a form of control that will make a women less attracted to you. Actually, that will make women want you less and will therefore go have sex with someone else. It’s one thing if you don’t want to, but it’s another to just say no for the sake of saying no. Trust me, she’ll find someone else that will be more than happy oblige.
Of course. It was all the man’s fault. It wasn’t anything to do with you getting sexually bored of your monogamous husband and desiring fresh Alpha cock…
Haha no. Professors don’t make enough money. (And they’re almost required these days to be left-wing.)
Both. Most of my reading on this stuff is articles and published studies (from colleges!), including ones you have to pay for. I’ve read a few books on this stuff (Sex at Dawn, etc) but most of the good stuff are in studies. The problem is these studies are often hard to read and it takes a while to get the meat out of them. Fucking researchers and college professors are so wordy!
Correct.
Saying no to all kinds of things, just to say no, is over-gaming. (Over-techniquing?)
However, in my experience, men who do this (saying no just to stir up frustration and conflict to somehow increase attraction) tend to be guys who lean heavily in the Alpha Male 1.0 direction and kinda like drama. Technique is the excuse they use, when in fact they sort of enjoy the conflict that results.
@Sparks
Too funny! I was thinking same thing!
Women crack me up sometimes.
Reminds me of this chic that begged me to be Exclusive w her ( marriage too) and yet was always bragging about how it was her that left her 3 loser ex’s cuz she didn’t love them anymore or got bored.
She was so proud of her stats.
So, finally one day I ask her, “why would I wanna be # 4 on your list and you bragging to the next guy about breaking up w me in 6 months? Why would a man wanna do that?”
She never did or could answer that question to this day…..
Great Stuff!
Amazing how BD can so quickly sumarize everyhting that Tyler Durden and his RSD takes so long to explain: Female attraction comes from guys that dont react to them. They are just doing their stuff and having fun with theirselves (no pun intended).
Women dig into guys that do what they want, basically (that thought really satisfy my inner libertarian. Praxeology is the answer to “what women want?”. Mises is a god)
A good technique I’ve used (and still use) when a woman proposes something I might find boyfriendish (but am not sure right there) is to pause for 3-5 seconds and say: “Gimme a moment to think about it”.
Usually my answer is “no”, but when I give it a rest for a couple of minutes and let the rational hemisphere take over my actions, that “no” means a little less of a big deal than if I say it right to her face.
I’ve also noticed that we as men, when concentrated on work, a game, a movie, etc, etc, are more vulnerable to emotional questions/behavior or drama because our focus is 100% elsewhere. So if you and your lady are watching a good movie, and you’re really into it, that’s the “perfect” time for her to come with that damn question about why you never take her out or spend time with her on valentines.
Don’t know why it happens, but I’ve fallen for that trap in the past!
Lol, if you’re talking about my made up scenario, that was a joke. Learn to tell the difference. Note that I said “What not to do:”
Someone asked:
BD answered:
He later clarified that he meant beta (boyfriend-y or romantic) activities are attraction killers, even if you like to do them. So that’s why some of us misunderstood him.
@Lovergirl and others
Let’s set some definitions:
Wife sex: She flops on the bed, stares at the ceiling like a dead fish and says: “Just get it over with…” (Lack of enthusiasm)
Lazy sex (On her part): Hmmm…Let’s say I tell her to change position or do something. The purpose is to add variety, lengthen the time before the climax and of course, be subtly dominant. She refuses for lazy reasons (Not medical ones). (Lack of compliance)
Now as you can see, in the first scenario, she’s NOT lazy. She’s just not in the mood (Cause of which can be lack of attraction; it probably is)
But in the second scenario, she’s in the mood but is lazy and/or doesn’t play the submissive part. Now, I don’t have a hard and fast rule for this and don’t take it seriously. Sometimes, I prefer her not to do anything. But I’ve read that Mike Cernovich once aborted sex when a woman didn’t comply and she woke him up later and agreed to play the part. It’s up to personal preference on how to deal with lazy sex. (I’d spank her into submission if I feel like it)
So don’t confuse the two terms. Additional definitions:
Orgasm denial: Make her horny but don’t make her cum. Tell her not to masterbate and keep her like this for some time. Then, finally relive her when you want to. Does it sound evil? Think of it as teasing or foreplay. Not so evil now, is it?
Transactional sex: She agrees to sex…if you do something she asks of you. Like cleaning dishes or something.
BD’s posts without spellcheck: Elementary kid’s essays.
So to wrap things up, when she puts out wife sex or transactional sex, attraction will actually increase if you say no. Any objections?
Update: BD, plz don’t ban me…
I can tell the difference, maybe you should re-read your post and learn to not contradict yourself.
Your comments are pretty childish so I wouldn’t be making any negative comments about BD’s essays. You never know, he might just ban you one day!
Sigh…
Which is clearly pointed at this:
Not fucking this:
Which has nothing with her ASKING and generally to do with lazy sex, wife sex or transactional sex. All of which I talked about.
How cute…read the rules and avoid resorting to ad hominems. Maintain civil attitude or I won’t continue to respond to you.
Haha. I like Tyler. But yeah, he and the RSD guys can be very long-winded.
Jokes and sarcasm are not against the rules here, so you’re fine. (If jokes or sarcasm weren’t allowed on this blog, I wouldn’t be able to post either.)
She’s fine too. She didn’t make an ad hominem against you, she made it against your comments, which is allowed here. (Not only allowed, but encouraged.)
Lol, smartass.
Still, if I feel like anyone’s getting too emotional or butthurt to objectively argue with me, I know my time is better spent than trying to convince them. Even rude is fine with me, just as long as we’re being objective.
“Even worse, most women don’t even understand this, even though it’s happening within their own minds right at this moment.”
As somebody said, what’s said isn’t what’s thought, which isn’t what is actually desired.
Everytime the self-image and actual desires diverge — and they’re going to diverge everytime, when it’s about sex — you have the gap.
These gaps are wider in the case of women since they have been subjected to more societal pressure.
Men aren’t foreigner to the situation, though. For example, I think many men who are attracted by other men live their life managing to always hide it from themselves; the societal shame they feel is compelling.
Likewise, while it’s been registered many women (more than 50%) get aroused seeing woman-and-woman sexual scenes, much fewer said they do.
We could just say: the more you comply, the weaker you look to her. And women crave strength — sometimes not knowing they do.
{by the way: this is the same thing with the “don’t tell her she is beautiful, specially if she is beautiful” thing. And I’ve been surprised to see how many men can’t get this reading through the comments. I mean, if nothing else, haven’t they had some empirical experience?
Talk and meet some times with a beauty without EVER showing you think she is a beauty, and she’ll be much more interested than otherwise.}
The Frustration chart is why only male rags can join together with dominant females. Dominant females frustration tolerance is very, very low…
It all ends in that scenario you outlined before. Whatever they choose, women will be unhappy. Only a man that doesn’t exist, a beta-alfa, would make them happy.
@LoveGirl
you really seem convinced you represent all women/understand women better than men who understand them.
I am sure of the very opposite.
There clearly is a way to deny a woman sex making her realize we aren’t attracted, and there clearly is a way to deny a woman sex not making her realize we aren’t attracted.
The latter way very often arouses the woman more.
Delay may be in the order of length of minutes, half a hour, morning to evening, or even a week.
Her sexual tension just builds up.
It’s the same thing as “short lasting” vs “long lasting” sexual intercourse.
As always, you have to know how to do it.
I’m not turned on by being denied sex and I sincerely doubt any but the most masochistic woman would be. If you aren’t sexually attracted why would you be with her anyway? Doesn’t make any sense.
I’m still trying to understand “lazy sex” from a woman. Not wanting to change positions is “lazy”? Sounds more confrontational than lazy. Unless she’s just like no I’m not getting up on my hands and knees because I’m too tired to move. Lolol I’m trying to picture this…
I really don’t understand when men complain about women just laying there though. When I just lay there men tell me how great the sex is… lmao. Maybe I’m just with more industrious men, who like being able to fold me into different positions and for the most part don’t ask me to do anything haha.
I’m quite happy to let them do all the work and be “lazy”. A guy just told me, like two days ago, how he loves that I just let him do whatever he wants with me in bed. His exact words were “I love how you give yourself to me, no questions asked”. In other words I’m lazy… lol. I don’t want to be THINKING or trying to DO something during sex the majority of the time. That ruins it for me.
@Lovegirl
Maybe another way to think of “Lazy sex” is “anti-passionate sex” or is the woman really into it or not?
Like most issues, this one is a huge double standard with the ladies – they can be tired and not in the mood but we sure can’t or it can be used as an excuse for all kinds of actions, including cheating, as you so eloquently put it 🙂
She can decline a specific fetish any time but if I did the same (for valid reasons), wooooo. It is the end of the world and now she will assume all kinds of things. One time, my lady literally jumped on top of me and woke me up at 5 am (REM sleep phase) to have sex and I eventually woke up and did even though I was extremely sleepy. When I tried this by simply touching her ass one night while she was sleeping, I get my hand slapped and then told I am being too loud masturbating while watching a porno.
Complete double standard and another reason to NEVER move in with a chic cuz then its tougher to kick them out when this shit starts up….
I wish I gound this blog 2 months ago…
I was read the why its important to ignore her after a break up piece and I loyerally felt like I stepped out of the matrix….with that being said…i need some foresight…
I was talking to this girl for about 10 months…the majority of our relationship was long distance so we mostly video chatted
After 10 months of talking I went upstate to her school for the weekend and we finally had sex (i fucked her like 6x)
A few weeks after that weekend she dumped me (and i basically found out she is a lame and batshit crazy)
Her reason behind dumling went as follows
She believed we were at a level where the goal was marriage (no) and what she wanted she didn’t see in me. Essentially her gripe was my choice of vocabulary and the fact I smoke weed (which she was aware of)
At first i wished her the best…then i went batshit crazy…i told her id change for her…i bought her flowers (I’m so sorry BD) and she told me she loved, i quickly responded no she didnt
At the time i was still very emotional and she was kind of stand offish when i wanted to speak to her so i eventually told her I had to let her go.
Heres the thing tho…that same day I made a joke she got mad at and i told her why she was being so negative….she went on to show me mlre crazy.
She told me she felt for a few months that she wanted to die…which concerned me…and made it that much harder to let her go. So 4 days after i told her i had to let her go (exact text being “although im concerned with your mental health..thinking about you doesnt feel good anymore. I have to let you go. She didnt respond.
4 days later i texted her (still being a bitch, but also concerned) that i wake up worrying about her. She called me immediately but I was at work.
We spoke throughout the day even though i wasnt responding to her promptly…
I eventually asked if she still had my flowers and she responded that she threw them out that day….then i called her an asshole.
She texted me saying sometimes when we talk I feels like we can be friends but then im reminded of how poisonus i am to you and I dont think youll ever stop talking to me (ugh).
She then told me i didnt deserve what happened (as far as our breakup) that she hoped id forgive her one day and and goodbye….she blocked me on everything…social media phone whatsapp….
So I emailed her (I’m sorry). My email essential proposed that we remaim friends and id be here if ever she needs to talk. I also admitted in the very beginning of the email…that biotch i told u I was crazy…
She replied back a day later saying “this made my entire day and weekend…u are crazy…but as far as friendship it is up to me and if id be able to see her with someone else, noting that there were no prospects at the time. She also said that another condition would be no mention of the sex…the flowers or her wanting to die.
I responded saying im not sure it matters but im sure ill be fine considering the space Im in…after no response (im a bitch) i relayed to her that i had a friend take his life and it was difficult for me to leave the dieing thing alone. No response (might be blocked or she might be studying for finals, she like that…when i first pursued her i would literally have to set appointments to talk to her…she sticks to a seriois schedule).
Maybe 2 days after feeling emotional some more i told her ive made some conclusion about her id like to share..and to kick butt and take her degree as she should. No response…..long story short. If I follow the NC rule of 4 months…do you think she’d boomerang? Despite me showing her the worst of me after the breakup?
See, now that above is an example of a “there’s this one girl…” thing.
The answer is you need to not care about having sex with or seeing her again. Go have sex with other women and stop worrying about whether or not she’ll boomerang. If she does she does, if she doesn’t she doesn’t.
@IMsorryblackdragon
OMG. Are u serious?? BD is probably gonna just link your post to the “there is this one girl” article, which u should read if u have not.
Go find more chics asap. Lets say u loved dogs and your main one ran away. If you had 3 dogs, would it be so difficult to deal with now you still have 2? Same with sports cars etc. If u have 3 hobbies and lose the ability to do one, the fact you can still do 2 helps a lot right?
IMSorry, I didn’t read past your first 3-4 sentences. You really need to read this, and then read this.
Oh, c’mon LG, now you’re reaching. You’ve been married; I know you know what he’s talking about. I’ve seen / heard about it too (mostly in monogamous relationships of course). A woman refusing to do things during sex she’d normally do, like change positions or do other things during sex the man requests, because she’s being lazy, or she’s in a bad mood that day, or she’s a little mad at him for some reason, or what the fuck whatever. Yeah, women can do this sometimes. I know what he’s talking about, and I agree it happens and it’s a problem. I think you’re acting dumber than you are.
Now that I have no problem with, and I somewhat agree with you, provided A) she’s really hot, and B) as long as it’s not wife sex, where she has this “jeez, okay, hurry up!” attitude about it.
Many other men disagree with me on this one and I understand, but my sex drive is high enough where if she’s hot and she’s not trying to give me wife sex (which is always unacceptable), I’m cool with it if she just lays there (particularly if she’s a FB and doesn’t mean that much to me).
But again, a woman just quietly laying there and doing nothing is not what they’re complaining about.
Excellent post BD, and thanks for relaying your reliable experiences on this subject.
I thoroughly agree with your point on women laying there, provided it’s not wife sex; IMO, so long as a woman specifically likes this (massive turn-off if not) it is an opportunity to prove how good you are in bed which reinforces your masculinity and attractiveness and is magnified too if previous men were not as good!
I’m not playing dumb. I’m being sincere and I can honestly say I never refused to get in a position for my ex husband. He, on the other hand, was pretty lazy in bed. He had some sexual hangups and pretty much just wanted to lie there and have me ride him, whereas I wanted to be dominated. I did what he wanted in the moment because I just wanted to have sex and he hardly ever did. I said things to him about it outside the bedroom but he really didn’t attempt to change it. I felt very resentful but I still did it. I did, a couple of times, try to encourage him to change positions in bed, like got up off him and moved to a different position in the hopes that he would follow but he would just lie there like the sex was over. God, it was awful. We were so poorly matched sexually. I’m so glad that is over.
The guys I like the best are the ones who don’t really expect me to do anything lol. Other than blowjobs he is pretty much the one doing all the work. Like my current favorite guy is freaking amazing in bed. We got into a discussion once where I was telling him about a conversation a girlfriend and I had been having about the lame advice women are given about being good in bed and his response was that women can’t be good in bed, that’s a mans job. That attitude takes all the pressure off me and is actually pretty nice because then I can relax, be lazy, and have orgasms. 🙂
Like I said, It’s pretty much up to personal preference regarding lazy sex. People like me and BD have certain preferences but generally don’t mind her being lazy, or we may even like it. Other hardcase Alphas demand total control (Order her to change position, lick up cum, etc) Different shades of dominance. The result is the same: Women happy to give up control and let strong men take responsibility.
You’ve trained yourself to enjoy it that way. Now you can’t imagine enjoying it any other way. Perhaps you’ve never had sex with the certain dominants that like to order you around. If you did, you might be surprised to find that you like it. Although, probably not since as people get older, retraining their mental condition become more difficult.
For example, if I somehow repetitively force myself to orgasm while thinking of fetishes that I find appalling, even they will become a new fetish for me. It can be anything. And I’m young so it’s certainly possible.
I suspect many of you read/heard stories of third wave feminists who wouldn’t dream of submitting but quickly becoming infatuated by the practice once they found the right man. Women are very moldable. I think I made my point clear.
I hope this clears up the confusion.
This is helping me so much with a break up im dealing with. i am following your 4 month minimum no contact rule and it is hard. And she broke up with me basically because i didnt comply. Right now im just focusing on my mission in life and focusing on other women. I am curious though when yu will address the long distance relationship return rate. great blog and advice, saved me when the break up was nearing, from throwing myself into high demands….i was dealing with a 35 yr old….rules and rules lol
Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I get really turned off by a woman that won’t show passion and lust when we’re having sex. Just lying there, even if willingly, doesn’t cut it for me.
I am most turned on by mutual attraction: feeling that she is just as turned on by me as I am by her. That sort of thing always leads to the hottest sex for both of us, whether it ends up with me being very dominant to satisfy her needs to be dominated or she ends up being very active and aggresively pursuing her lust, wanting to mount me/take new postions/grab my cock and start sucking it, etc.
So to me, a woman can definitely be lazy in bed and it is a huge turn-off. I have no interest in fucking a corpse, I need a hot-blooded, lustful, orgasmic, screaming banshee in bed who bites in ecstasy and digs her nails into my back to complement my roaring-lion wild-animal lust and be the recipient of my sexual savagery.
BD, have you ever intentionally let compliance go up a little to reduce a woman’s attraction?
I just realized that I more or less did this with one girlfriend because I wasn’t so attracted to her any more, had other options I wanted to focus on, but really liked her as a friend and figured if I let it be her idea we could preserve the friendship and our social circle after (vs. me dumping her which would have killed it).
Friendship was preserved and I still think to this day she is none the wiser.
You can not DO anything and still FEEL passionate or lustful or have orgasms. It’s still a man’s job to provoke all those feelings though. I’m not going to be having screaming orgasms if HE is lazy. So really it still falls back on the man. If she’s not enjoying thé sex it’s likely something he is doing or not doing that’s not turning her on.
Pointed out above in (alarmingly, only 1) of the comments….this is not blanket advice. A common mistake when learning this stuff is to take it too literally (ask me how I know…..).
The properly nuanced statement is to be aware of the effect of compliance to a woman and ensure you are not doing things you don’t care to solely because you want to please her. That leads to resentment and eventual breakup. In essence, this post is about passing compliance tests.
A lot of the spergs posting here are going to have serious problems when these girls see them denying reasonable requests and wonder why this guy is so uncalibrated.
I’ve been reading BD for a while, but don’t normally (never?) post in the comments, or follow them, so this was a bit of an experiment to post here and follow the thread.
I’m surprised how many people in this thread didn’t actually understand the original post, especially the female / white knight / anti-sperg voices who have been the living embodiment of the cognitive dissonance that makes the post’s advice so hard to assimilate.
My own comment was obviously not clear, since it would seem that BD interpreted me as sending out another “mother may I be a blue-pill chump if that is what I really want, and call myself alpha” comment. I had something subtler in mind.
It is not the content of the man’s intent, or the content of the request that matters, it is the woman’s intent in making the request. Even something obviously “alpha”, like a woman requesting a threesome with another woman, can be a test in a particular circumstance (this one has been quite common IME…)
Only calibration and being able to read the woman and the context can tell you if it is a test. It requires some vigilance, but you develop a “spidey sense”, and if that is triggered, however gently, you are better to deploy some form of non-compliance than to create problems for yourself by assuming that no one would be so devious as to ask for something they didn’t want.
This is why men have a hard time assimilating the rule: it goes against the grain of our desire to be able to relax with a woman, and our desire to take people at their word about what they want.
I learned this lesson at first hand with an ex last year. I was the one who initially initiated the breakup after 6 months of exclusivity. Previous to that, she worked hard to secure a relationship with me. I did everything that you would consider asshole behaviour towards her (excluding physical and emotional abuse) and went as far as telling her to go home after she came to meet me at salsa and telling her there was another girl I was paying attention to…
Despite all of this, she still came back a few months later and offered to be a friend with benefits. The sex was far better than anything we had when we were exclusive.
I eventually dropped the ball once she moved onto someone else and kept me as a ‘friend’. I thought it would be ok to let her know how I felt, apologised and asked for her back, which completely blew everything apart.
Long story short, being a beta is far harder than it is to be an alpha. You can get away with a lot more when you’re unapologetic than when you’re a nice guy treading on eggshells with people.
The things I apologised for were the things that justified her excuse not to come back, which conversely were the things that made her hugely attracted to me when I simply didn’t care.
Was a hard lesson learned and a mistake that I’ll never make again.
Just some food for thought.
@onder
Shit I’ve learned that being a beta is like asking myself:
“do I want a new part-time (some cases full-time) job that is complicated to figure out, losses me $ and I know I’ll eventually get fired from it?”
My answer: No
@blackdragon
Different topic but have you done any posts on how a guy can increase his Novelty w the chics?
Especially if it’s a more serious relationship and she is around more than 1x per week.
I feel that since I am a biz owner that works from my home office (make good $) I have a lil disadvantage here compared to the firefighters, cops, attorneys etc that have a higher Novelty to them. This also seems to be a big factor w my boomerang % too.
Love to hear more on this topic sometime!!
Thanks
This is going to sound strange, but I wanted to get any opinion on this if I could.
I’m like 5’4 and bi-racial.
I’m fairly fit and working to get more fit (I’m around 14% bf and looking to go to 7%).
So, I started with this stuff 6 months ago, and I started with POF and occasionally going out. The only biters on POF were fatties, not-so-hots — you get the picture. The first two were just fat dumpy chicks, the third was a normal looking black chick, the fourth was a plain jane white chick.
Then I somehow lucked into getting with a very hot white chick (from IRL)(honestly looks like a model) for a ONS. But she made it pretty clear that she didn’t want a relationship or anything like that with me, meaning — to my mind — she just wasn’t THAT attracted to me.
Then on POF I just set my sights on hot women. For awhile, no responses. Then after awhile, some responses (but fleeting…). Then IRL I hook up with this cute filipina girl (had her as a FB for awhile until she pulled the ‘let’s just hang out tonight and not have sex, it’s not just about the sex is it?’). My POF inbox has more hot chicks responding (still mostly non-committal, fleeting).
Meet up with another chick who looked really cute in her pics but is maybe a 5-6 at best IRL. She practically jumps me though when we meet up, so we bang one time —in my car. Seemed fun, but then I don’t really hear from her.
Another chick is a hot black/native american pornstar (ya on POF right?) Go out with her on a date, she seems really interested and says so, but I can’t meet up with her the next time she wants to meet up (and she wanted to come over). So that fizzles.
And when I go out, interactions like this are typical: see a young very attractive chick, talk to her, get handsy — she seems to like it, like she squeezes my hand back when I hold it, seems comfortable when I put my arm around her — but then, idk, I’ll put my hand on her thigh or something and she’ll suddenly tell her friend to tell me to leave — weird shit like that. You know, like I’m kind of a creep.
The question is…I feel, even though my results fucking suck…that I’m on the right path. Like, I legit believe the chicks are digging it when I touch them and stuff and that I just must do something wrong in the interim. Maybe I’m between leagues or something, I really don’t know. Did you ever have this time period with women? Where the results didn’t really match what you were feeling? Was the feeling right? Should I re-evaluate and take another path…?
@anon
1) have you meet anyone offline yet? If so, how did that turn out? If not, why not?
2) what kind of car you drive?
3) what is your career? Novelty is tied to this alot. At one time, I had a legal (attorney) website that generated leads for a customer of mine. So, technically I was in the legal biz and chics loved it.
4) what hobbies you have?
5) maybe your trying too hard? Act more like Adam Sandler in movie Blended where he is trying to watch TV and jokes w her w lil sarcasm. Just don’t give a shit how it turns out kinda….
6) are u texting or calling them too soon after sex ?
No. I don’t see the point in ever reducing a woman’s attraction for me.
There will be many scenarios in which I disagree with that. If, for example, a FB decides to shit test me somehow by suggesting a threesome with her super hot sister, fuck it, I’m saying yes. I will happily fail that shit test to do that, and doing so is still “Alpha” even if it was some kind of test.
I don’t fully understand what you mean by novelty, but if it means what I think you think it means, then I don’t care what a woman thinks about me. I present myself as I am, as honestly as possible, and she can make her own decision. I’m not going to go out of my way to attempt to impress a girl. (I somewhat did that many years ago, and all it did was give me a bunch of high-ASD gold-diggers for my trouble, so I stopped. I’m a fast learner.)
In that scenario, you are still “losing points” with the FB, you just don’t care, or at least see it as a reasonable trade-off, which is always an option when you are your own point of origin.
My point is to elucidate the core mechanism you are presenting in the OP, which can be ridiculously, ruthlessly illogical, and which seems to have flown past half the commenters.
@judojohn
Holy crap you nailed it when you mentioned the hardest part of becoming Alpha 2 is keeping our mouths shut! I still struggle with this a lot. Partly cuz I’m such a transparent guy that was married to a woman for 19 years that held everything in. Secondly, I enjoy the humor, analytical and psychological side of dating to some degree and the banter or “Seinfeld” side of it.
But man does it open a shitload of drama down the road….
That being said, I’ve had numerous chics wish they could take back stuff they said to me because I don’t ever forget it and when she contradicts herself eventually, I will recall her statements which pisses them off too. So a guy really can’t win either way and I just have learned to bite my tongue and smile. Damn it’s hard not to use Man logic sometimes.
@CurtsNOKC
1) Yeah, that hot model looking chick. It resulted in sex. (btw all the women were between 20-30)
2) Not a great one. I don’t really think that’s relevant.
3) Yeah I got that handled, but I almost never tell chicks what I do before I sleep with them. When I go out and manage to actually work up the courage to actually talk, then I tell them, but it doesn’t really seem to help me out much either way, even though I do have a high status career.
4) gym, hiking, music, reading non-fiction science stuff, writing, reading philosophy, just started boxing awhile ago
5) idk, tbh while I’m sure I’m doing things wrong, I think I’m headed in the right direction. That’s what I’m asking about. Like, I have this growing confidence that ‘yessss it’s starting to work,’ even though my results really aren’t there yet lol. I’m only asking if this is a phase everyone goes through or if I’m insane.
6) No I wait a day or so. I’m not really a big or furious texter. Pretty hands off about it.
True. I don’t mind losing points if a woman is asking or demanding I do something I would do anyway provided it’s something very Alpha and has nothing whatsoever to do with boyfriend or romantic behaviors.
I did in some of the comments above.
I think “half the commenters” is an exaggeration, but I’ve explained it, and if anyone still doesn’t understand it at this point, that’s their problem. As I said in the OP, it’s a very hard thing to men to understand. I’m only going to go so far.
@CurtsNOKC
1) Oh, and that filipina chick was an IRL thing. I also forgot to mention that I hooked up with this ok looking 40 y/o woman too IRL awhile back (not really worth mentioning — I’m 30 btw).
BD (and others):
Looking for guidance about attraction / compliance in regards to a situation where I’m converting a SB into a FB. Thanks in advance…
Over the last six months, I’ve been seeing this girl who started out as a Sugar Baby, but has evolved into more of a normal FB situation. I used to shower her with gifts every time I saw her, but have gradually tapered off the gift-giving, and focused more on the sexual satisfaction.
In the early months, I also indulged in boyfriendish / romantic behaviors, like giving her chocolate and frequent texts, but as I re-read Blackdragon’s rules, and alpha’d up, I stopped that shit too. Fortunately we’ve never spent the night together, and never saw each other more than once a week. I also make her cum every time (multiple times). Her attraction / affection for me seems to be increasing, despite (or perhaps due to) a decrease in the amount of money I’m spending on her.
But here’s my question. As Christmas rolls around, I’m debating on whether to get her a holiday gift. I know the rules say no gifts for FB‘s, but due to the fact that she started as a SB, I almost feel “obligated” to continue providing her gifts, or at least a Christmas Gift, to honor the original “arrangement” (male brain / word is bond). But ultimately my goal is to continue increasing her attraction and eventually upgrade her to MLTR.
So should I just immediately cut out all the gifts until upgrade, and treat her like any FB? Or should I “grandfather” her into a little provider-type treatment, so to speak, based on the fact that we started off as a SD / SB arrangement. Compliance is at the heart of the problem here because she dropped subtle indicators of a “Christmas wishlist” and wondering how I should respond.
BD could write an entire post just on this concept of “converting” a SB into a FB.
Thanks again,
Dionysus
@Lovergirl is mostly right here but her current man was incorrect. Women CAN be good in bed, but it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with position or technique.
Generally speaking, the more willing she is to follow a man’s lead in bed (assuming he leads), the better she is. The more she is able to relax and let go, the better she is. The more she is able to stay in the moment and enjoy herself without being in her head, the better she is.
The guy still has to lead and it’s 100% his responsibility to take the pressure off her and allow her to relax and follow him. But the more intelligent and sexual she is… the better she’ll be able to let go and enjoy.
I generally don’t care how a girl feels when I’m sleeping with her. As selfish as this is, every time I’ve tried making a girl satisfied, it caused it to be worse than it could have been. Because you can never know what she truly likes. In addition to this, it causes horrible symptoms such as performance anxiety and ED.
My focus now is simply dominating her and overwhelming her with my masculinity. And I don’t stop until i’m satisfied. I’ve never had any complaints from any girl aside from the comment that they love the fact that I behaved like an animal and treated her like a sl*t. I haven’t has a single girl tell me they didn’t like to be treated rough in bed. Was interesting feedback, but I generally don’t care. The focus is mainly on my own pleasure.
If you focus on being the alpha guy you naturally are in or out of the bedroom, then it will turn her on and often times, make her orgasm harder and more often than what any sex manual could ever teach you.
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
If they have ever hinted at things like spending $ on them in exchange for sex with them or paying for her dates or gifts or rent etc than that opens the door to the FB conversation usually.
I have done this a couple of times and it can possibly move you from the loser BF pile to the attractive & free guy FB pile of men if done right.
For example – chics that bring up the “5 date rule” and bullshit like that open the door for a FB convo in my opinion. If it is $50 per meal x 5 meals so she is implying she is worth about $250 per lay. Take this and have some fun with it lol. Many many ways to slowly move this direction….
Maybe I missed a post on the topic or something…
Don’t disagree with you at all, this is pretty much dead on.
Just wanted to say that it DOES in fact work on guys too. Frustration = morivation. Frustrating someone and making them feel they still have to work to earn your approval can even be applicable in a work scenario. I’ve found that my clients that I always jump immediately when they say to and do exactly what they want when they ask are much more likely to be in appreciative and take me for granted. The ones who sometimes have to wait to speak to me or who I put off a little and frustrate are the ones who value me more.
It’s all a balancing act. Frustration increases dopamine, the motivating chemical that is also the chemical that increases sex drive and makes you want rewards. If you want to keepisode dopamine popping in someone you have to leave themy wanting, keep them guessing, and be willing to frustrate them sometimes. But not all the time or they will give up. They need rewards and satisfaction sprinkled in too or they’ll give up.
It’s like a video game. You want to get to the next level and master the game. Every level you conquer gives you a brief burst of satisfaction and happiness but then you want to find out what the next level brings. The best games also frustrate the fuck out of you. A game thats way to easy would bore you. And even an awesome game, once you’ve mastered it and won, is quickly discarded as you move onto something new. Relationships aren’t that different, and if you want to make one last you better make it an epic adventure full of uncertainty and “what happens next” excitement and frustration and challenge.
Excitement comes from anticipation and uncertainty and suspense. Not from comfort and satisfaction. It’s weird that anyone would even think they could go together when they’re physiological opposites and it isn’t even physically possible to be both excited and desirous and relaxed and comfortable and content at the same time. The brain states are mutually exclusive.
The guy from my past who is the most enduringly obsessed with me, for years after we broke up, was the one who liked me the least as a person and who I never really got along with. But it just drives him fucking nuts that he never truly conquered me, so I still get texts once a month from him and he fancies himself I love when we broke up 3 years ago and aren’t even friends. Whereas the guys I am actually friends with after a break up aren’t like that, they moved on. But I didn’t frustrate them. So yes, it does work in reverse oN men as well, and listening to what they SAY about this is not much more useful than listening to what a woman says. Dudes LOVE winning over and conquering a woman who frustrates them, this is just human nature.
So anyway, good article. And guys, if you want to take this to another level and act at a real female level of relationship artistry, try actually picking a fight, like we do. Just for the great makeup sex when you break the tension. Lol. That’s a move not many guys are willing to do but it works just as well as when women do it, if they have the stomach for it (I know many here are anti drama). I personally don’t like emotional obligations and that form of drama, but I definitely don’t mind acting out some Wild Kingdom style aggressive sex.
Great post but…unfortunately, you do this often enough and you’re conditioning her to fight with you more and more, because of the “reward” she gets at the end.
Not sure if that’s what you want to go for in your relationship. A woman who looks forward to constantly pushing your buttons because there’s some reward at the end of that battle.
@ Eugene. Ha, good observation. In fact you pretty much just described the drama/tension/release cycle of abusive relationships, which are just addictions to a relationship characterized by aggression from a dominant partner, followed by bad feelings and anxiety, followed by the reward of love, sex, and attention. People who can’t leave abusive relationships are best understood as addicts.
Anyway I wasn’t suggesting anything at that level. More like just a once in a blue moon fight…once or twice a year or something and only to remedy what might be growing boredom and complacency. Sort of a jolt to get some life back into it. I’m not someone who likes drama or anxiety at all…I’m pretty avoidant and would rather just not spend much time together at all in order to stave off the boredom factor. But if one IS spending a bunch of time together, and things ARE getting a little too cozy, complacent, and boring with decreasing attraction, it’s worth considering not just noncompliance (which could be difficult if one gets along really well and doesn’t have many demands made) but actually purposely picking a fight. The bang for your buck, so to speak, may be better. Women do it. And on that topic, guys should consider that many times if a woman seems to be picking a fight with you for no reason, many times the proper response and the one that makes her happiest the fastest, is to throw her down for some wild animal sex. Not to talk around in circles for hours about the supposed topic of dispute.
I dated an older woman back in my beta days (in fact, immediately before I discovered the RP community), and through a series of unusual circumstances I seem to have ‘accidentally’ done EVERYTHING that raises attraction without ever knowing it. She practically nicknamed me “the guy who wouldn’t stop saying no”. Thinking back on this, I realize that I’ve always had a whole lot of alpha in me since childhood but that it got submerged by continuous societal programming, namely from the Disney cartoons and then the books I read, plus social standards in my country.
Anyway, the last straw that seems to have sent her attraction for me into the stratosphere was that I broke up with her (I’ll skip the reasons). It drove her crazy, and her degree of insistence in getting me back might’ve qualified as harassment. Bear in mind that all this happened while I was otherwise extremely beta and boyfriendish with her; it’s just that every once in a while I’d refuse something, make a ‘rule’ or act a little Alpha 1.0.
I don’t think it was conscious on her part but I do think that *on some level*, she wanted to get me back so that *she* could break up with me, not the other way around. As someone said on this blog, women will keep chasing you if you’re the man they never “got” (as in screwed over emotionally), so that they can finally “get” him (have *him* as the dumpee who chases them and thereby extinguishes all their attraction for him). I think most of them don’t really scheme this out, but subconsciously that’s the goal.
Edit: it’s even worse actually; even the girls who “got you” will try to do it again if later on you seem to be doing well. There are at least two chicks from my past who had friendzoned me when I was at the worst of my betaness, neediness, etc, they “got me” in every sense of the term (lol, I seriously humiliated myself as a blue pill teenager), and now they regularly text me in a feeling-the-water sort of way. It’s pretty disgusting in a sense; you’d think they’d gotten enough.
@kryptokate yeah see what you mean now.
I’m still mixed on that overall, though I definitely agree that women are sometimes just horny or frustrated because they want sex and let it out on you a bit with some fight picking.
But as far as picking a fight to jolt out of some complacency and routine, I still don’t know. I’d rather look for other ways – maybe try to go do some new, somewhat dangerous/exciting activities together…the more physical the better. And have that jolt both of you and then have sex after.
Would rather try to think of things like that first before I start picking a fight with my girl to bump my dopamine for some hot makeup sex..but that’s me.
True, it can, for some guys with some personality styles.
Its funny reminding myself back half years ago the 1st FB I met, we had sex after meeting at 3rd night. She told me she don’t wanna ME having sex with other girls, I can see jealousy in her eyes when we were missionary on the bed of course that night became my best night of sex so far, I pawned her real hard doggy styled with lights off.
Later she found me post some selfies with girl she was jealously cute.
Another FB I met day 3rd night having sex, she told me she hated me treat me that ‘asshole’, I cheekily told her, ‘but u liked it, right…’
I didn’t comply for both scenarios. they’re probably still attracted to me. Cause I been busy with my work didn’t see them for months.
Hey BD,
Regarding male to female attraction,
You mentioned before that theoretically female SMV peaks at around age 23-25, but if social taboo is taken out of the equation, then actual female SMV peaks at age 18.
What is it that makes 18 year olds generally hotter than 23 year olds, other than less ASD?
Women in their late 20s don’t seem that much older…or maybe it’s cuz I mostly see Asian chicks 🙂
What’s your take?
@The New Yorker:
It’s really just good old boring logic:
As soon as a woman is 100% physically mature (which happens somewhere between 14 and 19 depending on the woman), there is rationally NOTHING that happens to her body to make her more attractive (anyone who disagrees is invited to re-read the sentence “as soon as…etc” and respect the premise), all other things being equal (such as fitness: if she was fat at 18 and got fitter, it changes things of course). Therefore, it logically follows that a 24yo is less attractive (in purely physical terms – she can actually get better by optimizing how she dresses, talks, etc) than her 18yo self, even though the difference will be negligible. It is no longer negligible, of course, between a 60yo and her 20yo self, as aging begins slowly and then picks up speed.
There are of course people who have a thing, physically, for older chicks (when I get used to younger ones my body seems to beg for cougars), but that’s not the rule.
In men it’s kinda different because the evolutionary process that determined female esthetic preferences in male physiques is more complicated than just “be attracted to boys proportionally to visual clues of fertility”. That’s why it’s much more debatable which age (usually in the 18-45 ballbark) is most attractive in men.
Biology. To your biology, younger is hotter, provided the woman is fully developed sexually. Younger may not be hotter to you, but its hotter to your biology (your reptilian brain, your cock, etc).
Just think about it. You see two white girls standing in front of you (not Asians, since they all look young). They’re both equally pretty in terms of body, boobs, facial symmetry, etc. Same color hair, wearing the same outfit. However, one is 24 and one is 17. Which one does your dick want to fuck more? Not you, your dick. Not have a relationship with or go out on a date with, just fuck.
Most guys, not all guys, but most guys, if they’re isolated far away from the world, have 100% confidentiality, and have been injected with truth serum, will report their dick wants that 17 year-old at least a little more.
Biology.
It’s so interesting to read about guys wanting to fuck teens…there are so few teens that want to fuck older guys I remember wanting to and my friends being absolutely disgusted. Even now they are like seriously??I have never wanted a young guy not even when I was younger. I am with someone the exact same age as me now and this is not the best situation. I have a preference for older and the older I get the older I prefer. It feels biological to me…or least it seems to serve my primary desires…I don’t know…I just mean that when I was 14 I only noticed early twenties looking guys and this has steadily progressed for me. I’m 30 now and I find guys closer to 40 or more most attractive. I should say though that I have my own set of sexual preferences that may be outside of normal women’s desires. And I appear younger than my age (due in part to my ethnicity) and so it doesn’t help my cause as older guys don’t think I am interested and young ones still approach. Do you guys think its biological or daddy issues when a woman prefers an older guy since for you guys a teen body is most appealing to fuck vs an older one..could the reverse be true for women?
@Michelle: biologically, women’s average attraction to men will tend to adjust itself to scarcity/prosperity clues: women are wired to gravitate toward older men when the environment is perceived to be harsh, as older men are more likely to have built up social status/skill and have more to offer. When prosperity is high (getting more and more true nowadays as opposed to the previous centuries or non-Western societies), the benefits of older guys vs younger ones diminish as, with egalitarianism and prosperity a man has less to offer other than sex and companionship, and so a woman will tend to prefer guys between 2 years younger and 5 years older than herself, roughly.
However ALL of this must be tempered by “bell curve” considerations: you’ll always have some percentage of women who deviate from the norm and prefer older guys even in a prosperous egalitarian society, and equal-age guys even in scarcity (quite rare). Which is why BD can always find VYWs who like older guys regardless. And of course, you have today’s feminist/matriarchal tendencies where not only do women start preferring younger men, they also want them boyish, androgynous and submissive. Lol.
As for your saying that teenage girls aren’t interested in older men, this has never been a big deterrent for men: accross all epochs, men have always faced the conundrum that they would fuck anything 5/10 or more (worse for some), with a higher arousal for whoever has more fertility years left (ie younger girls), while women are pickier. Therefore, there have always been many men competing for fewer women, and men always had to face the “girls don’t like men of your height, age, style, build”: they still played the numbers’ game, because there’s nothing else to do. You acknowlegde the lower odds of getting what attracts you, but you do make an attempt, because those low odds are not zero.
@Gil Galad
I just don’t see anything appealing about men my age or younger…that seems awful. What you wrote makes sense for some women I know they literally sought out the best possible partner to get pregnant by and get married. They did so in their midtwenties and I would have to say they are not happy campers right now. Specifically because they chose men they could control or men that aren’t dominant in the real sense but pretend to be. They are always giving me advice…get married…get money…do this do that…and act shocked that I have more fun now than I did when I was younger…but I was mothering more then my kids were tiny and I was still very much a young girl..while they are just now having babies at 38-39..! I couldn’t do it omg…and getting a manboy …wow…never I mean I just turned 30 I guess technically I could have a baby but why?? My kids are more than halfway grown lol wtf..
I did things backwards in terms of social programming. I had kids younger much younger thank god and so I’m not dealing with a desire to settle down and reproduce. I’m more interested in connection, friendship, fucking, and a serious relationship without kids. But I do see your point when I look at the women in my life running their rat race I don’t get it I like being alone .. just planning my travels and working on my career I guess then maybe I’ve always been outside off.that sort of dream…again though it could be my own daddy issues or some other deviation from normalness … I just never really notice men my age or younger its like I can’t even see them. I also don’t know that the odds are low for me to be with a forty something year old man…are they? I’m pretty secure in my relationship now but I don’t plan on staying in it forever…also…I don’t plan on marrying or having that sort of situation either..do forty something men want 30 year old.women…or is the goal always teens/20s? I guess i will figure it out later when I’m actually looking lol
@Michelle
Reading your post made me laugh. I too got married at 20 and had to kids at young age. Was married for 19 years until 3 years ago. Kids are 19 and 11 and boy am I glad i started that part when I was younger!!!
I am totally free now to do whatever for the most part after learning the BD system.
The other day, I was standing in Lowe’s and this wife was yealing at her beta husband about what she demanded in their house while he was holding 2 kids and another running around the store. He looked like 30 or 40. Poor guy is all I could think. The shit us guys will/used to put up with is amazing.
Even now, I hear all the radio commercials marketed to MEN about getting that love her huge diamond ring to prove your love and I wanna vomit.
But aside from that I’ve dated some around 25 and 29 and they tell me that many guys closer to their age are immature, play video games all day or are Ben Afflec beta types and it turns them off.
Once they find out months later that I can’t have kids (oops) then they usually want to go find them another provider or babies daddy to control and I try to keep them on the side for sex once they get bored of him. Poor saps….
Hi Blackdragon,
I think this kind of discussion of female psychology and deeper dynamics of the FB / MLTR / OLTR is something that we crave and that is unique, not many people talk about it.
So I think if you wrote a book about this specifically, even if you covered it somewhere else before, but going deeper this time, and also discussing the different types of females (including ethnic / non-USA ones like Russian, Latina, etc, drama girls, artsy girls, office girl or whatever distinctions between various women types that are clear in your mind now after being with so many women), and even a discussion of tell-tale signs that a girl will be a great lay and amazing in bed compared to a girl that might look sexy but is timid in bed (I’ve met enough “hot” girls who just laid there in bed or were too self-conscious to have a great lay), and all the alpha/beta stuff, and how girls will leave you but stay very attracted so they come back.
Just going deep into this type of mindset and head-trip stuff related to female psychology and how to deal with women (arguments, non-compliance, what level of compliance for OLTRs, the hang-ups guys have about non-complying with FBs or MLTRs and the fear they’ll lose them or get into fights etc) will definitely be a very popular book of yours, and totally unique that will set you apart even further and give you a bigger edge with us men nowadays.
As you know, this stuff doesn’t even sound logical or natural to us, so a book just on this that covers the whole landscape and drills it deep into us (compared to short blog posts that give us an understanding, but is lost in game-time) will be a super-seller and real life changing for us.
Specialization always sells more than a book on a more general subject. So a specialized book on this will ROCK the sales and get a huge discussion going on here that will inject even more life into the blog!
I’m not a psychologist so I don’t think I’m qualified to take that topic and write an entire book about it.
Hi Blackdragon,
I understand what you mean. At the same time, I don’t think there are actually psychologists who can talk about this as well as you do.
How many psychologists do you think have the theoretical knowledge coupled with real life experience to know what works and what’s armchair theory, then can come up with their own conclusions about this? I’d say a big zero.
In all cases, it can be a small book like your upcoming novel (or even a detailed report), and you can clearly write that it’s purely based on your opinion and experience.
After all, experience is the most expensive thing we have. We pay for it with our mistakes, our time, our emotions and our life. So sharing your experience has tremendous value.
Reading this article twice, I realize the less demands a woman makes on the men she chooses to be with the more satisfied she will be. Hence Independents are happier than Submissive who are both happier than Dominants.
If I catch myself issuing more demands/rules than I’m comfortable with (I’m not a controlling person–it just takes too much unneeded effort) that signals to me I am either with the wrong man or must downgrade him. I’m not a babysitter nor his mother–I want to be his confidant and coconspirator.
@hilsey
Yes! Exactly why I won’t live with another woman unless it’s a Duplex or apartments side by side or she allows her GF to live with us too lmao. One can live close by and just give each other keys to their place I guess as an alternative to living together maybe? Have not tried that approach yet lol.
I love your advice, my FB, was an affair on and off again for five years, she called it quits on me two years ago, left her husband, and moved in with another man, pure beta guy. I did exactly as you have recommended ignored her for a year, sure enough a month ago a get a text, I let the back and forth texting go on for about two weeks, then I started to escalate to meeting for sex, she balked and gave me a speech about how in love she is now. I stopped responding and disappeared, she has sent a flurry of texts and emails over the last three weeks all more desperate for contact but no indication of sex, so I haven’t responded to any, and now today she blocked my Facebook account, Let me ask you BD did her attraction just go way up ? I think so, will I be fucking her again some time this year if I play it right? I believe so. I’m a married man, in a semi open marriage we keep together for our kids, I have other FBs so i can wait, she is aware have other ones too, so i believe this will double her frustrations and attraction
What are yalls top responses that got the best results from these comments from the ladies?
These assume I want a Alpha 2 frame….
1). She invites us over but says no sex due to period, infection, or whatever.
2). In the future, do we need to verify sex is gonna happen before coming over? If not, how many times would you go w/out it before saying something or nexting her?
I have a really difficult time handling this and typically tell them just call me once your feeling better or more in the mood. What is so wrong about this approach?
Any other ideas? I don’t like going over more than 2x in a row and no sex. Feels too much like your being moved to a friend zone to me.
Thanks guys!
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
“Cool. I hope your blowjob skills are top notch!”
I don’t. I just assume it. If it doesn’t happen (for non-medical reasons), I soft next. Read this.
I would soft next her (nicely) the very first time she did it.
Blackdragon
point taken, she on the new ignore list for 6 months to a year, I never added her on social media, I wasn’t done ignore her the first time, she contacted me and I started re ignoring again when she wouldn’t commit to a meet, I just chuckled to my self when I realized her frustrations with me are actually a bigger attraction, like you said in other posts, she’ll be back when the Beta gets boring, she’s boomeranged three times in the past, move on to others till then.
BD do you always take ladies back to your house or do you go to a hotel ,motel How do you screen out the crazy onesI wouldn’t like a xboyfriend coming around to my house causing trouble or a x fb What’s that saying Hell knows no fury like a woman scorned !!
Wow you have managed to explain a situation I had with a recent new fuck buddy and a chick I’ve been casually seeing every few months .
The fuck buddy texted me to come over and hang out with her I agreed but then she asked me if she could shower first . I said sure and didn’t hear back from her again that night even though she read the message . I have been trying to figure out what the right way to play that situation was and I probably should have said ” No I want you in all your filthiness now ” judging by the little I know about her I think that would have been the winning move . By going with her flow I may have reduced her attraction .
The on – off relationship chick works exactly as you mentioned. she comes by every four months or so , tries to pressure me into a relationship , wants to go out and do something together hoping the night ends with my dick inside her . When I don’t promise exclusivity she gets frustrated , I ghost her for a bit she disappears and sure enough she comes right back around 4 months later. Bizarre exchange but she’s been chasing a relationship with me for over a year now . Considering I know how fickle women can be my continual rejection / aloofness has not steered her away from me at all .
I’m revisiting this thread because I want to highlight a really important point made by one of the women in the comments:
A few months ago, I experienced the worst LSNFTE of my life. This particular girl is both very hot and very intelligent, and she used every resource available to try to make me jealous and basically hurt me as much as possible. I admit it hurt, but I stood my ground. And as expected, she just came back to me a couple days ago.
Like the article (and quote above) states, whenever a woman throws shit at you, focus on the WHY. Is it because she’s bored, or frustrated? In the aforementioned case I knew it was frustration, because she was putting effort into hurting me and using Look Guys Are Spending Money On Me game to make me jealous. She LSNFTEd me because she was falling in love with me, was getting scared, and summoned a hailstorm to see if I could hold on to my balls or not.
The best way to hold on to your balls is to focus on the WHY.
Now I didn’t intend to revisit this second topic, but I seem to have a weakness for LG’s questions:
Laziness is context-sensitive.
Women enjoy sex with me primarily because I provide very intense rape fantasies. Limp, ragdoll women that I can throw around and beat the crap out of are my favorite women. Women who try to lead me (e.g. don’t want me to touch their head during blowjobs, try to sexy cowgirl me all the time, etc.) are my least favorite women.
In my world, lazy sex is when “rape fantasy resistance” turns into “real resistance”. In the example I cited above, she and I had just grown apart sexually and she was “real” resisting everything. We’re still good friends today and hook up every now and then, but those days of weekly intense sex between us are probably over.
Brilliant.
Wow this is all complete bullshit. I mean sure it will work short term for extremely superficial sex-based, immature relationships built around triggering dopamine loops and wounding each others egos. But none of this ideology ultimately yields anything beyond two people fucking with each other. Actual connected relationships- the kind humans are genetically biologically wired to need- whether with friends, family or romantic partners- require being honest and vulnerable. I wish you bros wrapped up in the whole PUA BS would read an actual book on the science of human bonding, mammalian bonding, human relationships, psychology, etc. You’ve completely limited your conception of romantic relationships to the release of the phenylethylamine chemical and dopamine-addiction loops. Its myopic and laughable to anyone who is educated in the very real, very accessible science of human relationships.