Why The Hell Are You Hitting On Women You Don’t Find Attractive?
Whenever anyone has any questions or problems about dating and/or nonmonogamous relationships, I always have an answer. I’m serious. It’s rare I get stumped with a question or problem I don’t know the answer to. Moreover, I also usually understand the mindset of where the question is coming from. Even if I completely disagree with the question (or rather, the premise of the question or problem), I usually understand who the guy is thinking.
That being said, there is one problem that guys report to me on a regular basis, and it’s a problem that I have no understanding of why men are doing this to themselves. I have been hearing about this problem going back ten years, even in the PUA days when guys were complaining about it on the forums. All the way to today, guys are regularly complaining about this problem to me, and I have no idea why.
Here’s the problem they report. They went on seven online first dates and only had sex with two of the women. The primary reason? Three of the seven women the guy didn’t find attractive.
When I ask if these three women lied on their photos, or looked radically different than their photos presented, the answer is usually no.
This happens in daygame too. Daygame guys will hit on girls, only to later magically decide on the second meet that they don’t find these women attractive enough to have sex with.
Um…..
Okay….
Uh…
Let me ask you guys a question.
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU OPENING WOMEN YOU DON’T FIND ATTRACTIVE ENOUGH TO HAVE SEX WITH?
Jesus, guys! What the fuck? Why are you purposely wasting your time like this?
Seriously, can someone explain this to me?
I have been having sex with large numbers of women for 11 years straight now and I have literally never had this problem. Not once. Do you know why? Because, and I know this sounds crazy, I only open women I find attractive enough to actually have sex with. If a woman on a dating site is not attractive to me, I don’t send her an opener. Wild and radical, I know.
To be clear, I’m not talking about a social circle scenario where a woman is making moves on you. If you’re sitting around with a few friends, and some girl you know who is about a six on your scale is clearly DTF for you, starts rubbing up against your body, and you have nothing else going on at the moment, so you figure “what the hell” and have sex with her. I’m not talking about that.
I’m also not talking about an online dating scenario where a woman shows up to a first date and she clearly doesn’t look anything like her photos. I understand this happens sometimes and this is one of the downsides of online dating. It happens to all of us occasionally, but I’m not talking about that either.
I’m also not talking about getting a girl on a first date that you clearly think is hot, but she’s such a bitch or is so dumb you’re not attracted to her despite the fact she’s physically hot to you. I’m not talking about that.
No. I’m talking about this weird thing you guys do where you look at her photos on the dating site/app and for some reason swipe right or send her an opener, then on the first date, when she shows up looking pretty much like her photos, you decide she isn’t physically attractive enough to have sex with.
Or when you meet a girl while doing daygame or living your life, you clearly see what she looks like, you contact close her, get her out on a date later, then magically decide she’s not physically attractive anymore.
Seriously guys, what in the FUCK are you doing?
Do you like wasting your time? Are you that disorganized with your thoughts and actions that you will take the time out of your life to hit on girls you don’t find physically attractive so you can waste a bunch more time on first dates that go no where?
I really don’t get it. I don’t understand the concept of a guy saying, “Eh. This girl isn’t that hot. She’s maybe a four. I’ll send her an opener!”
I don’t understand the concept of a guy on a first date saying, “You know? When I first saw her (or saw pictures of her), she was clearly a seven. But now that I’ve seen her for longer than about five minutes, I’ve decided she’s a four. Gross! I’m not fucking a four! Damn! Pick-up is so hard!!!”
I’m laughing as I’m typing this. I just don’t understand the mindset you guys are experiencing.
So let me give you some advice that I really shouldn’t have to deliver. Ready? It will blow your minds:
DON’T OPEN WOMEN WHO YOU DON’T FIND ATTRACTIVE ENOUGH TO HAVE SEX WITH.
If you do, you will simply waste your time on a bunch of dating, pick-up activity, and first dates that end up with zero results. Then you’ll come complain to me that you’re going on all these first dates with girls who aren’t hot. Well whose fucking fault is that, genius???
My guess (and this is only a guess since I honestly have no idea why you guys are doing this) is that too many of you are not opening the hot girls because you think you can’t get them, and are instead only opening the “approachable” girls.
Well, stop doing that. I’ve said many times over the years that from day one, way back when I started back in 2007, I made a pact with myself that I would only online open women who were at least an eight (to me) or higher, and I would ignore all the other women on the dating sites (which yes, is the vast, vast majority of the women on there; that’s why you must always use multiple dating sites/apps, not just one).
I strongly suggest you do the same. If you think you can’t get hot girls, read this and this. But for fuck’s sake, stop hitting on women you don’t want to have sex with. That’s one of the dumbest things I can think of.
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I’ve been guilty of this a couple of times. What’s weird is that I knew that I was doing it. It’s been a few years since it’s happened though.
I’d be interested in knowing how you handle women who show up who don’t look like their photos?
When I was in my mid twenties and started making decent money I would occasionally ( once or twice a year) treat myself with a smoking hot escort ( it’s legal where I’m from). This programed my mind in a way that after that I never felt that a woman was too hot for me. I didn’t have a problem to flirt and ask out and escalate on a personal ten even when I was still a hopeless beta with no game.
I have never had this problem when hitting women directly in real life.
However I encouter this problem with women from online dating, in both ways and I have no clue what to do about it. If you have advices I am interested. I am not even really sure what the problem is, maybe the pictures are just 2D but IRL is 3D and then I percieve things especially faces very differently:
A – 1/3 of the time the woman shows up and she is clearly the person I saw in the photos, she didn’t lie. But based on the photos I felt she was a 8 or 9, in real life I feel she is a 4 and I just don’t want to have anything to do with her.
B – 1/3 of the time the woman shows up and she is clearly the person I saw in the photos, she didn’t lie. But based on the photos I felt she was barely a 6, in real life I feel she is a solid 8 or more.
Also it happened that based on the first date, I find the woman just borderline cute. But then when I fuck her her body is really great and I didn’t see that coming, and the sex is really great. It’s just that her facial feature are objectively symetrical but subjectively not in my favourite type for instance.
perhaps it starts because a man is desperate for sex and figures that he has to lower his standards. some men have told me that they think of sex and dating as moving up a job ladder, flawed logic. if he is dating within a social group, this actually type casts him with hotter women negatively. this is why i never go on blind dates unless very accurate photos are shown to me. it also tells what your friends think of you and where you need to improve. somewhat related, the quality of females that you date or marry affect your upward mobility especially some jobs. perceptions can matter greatly and most prostitutes will tell you that they have been hired not for sex, but to make a man look right at some professional event. i think that this issue that BD describes is a deep psychological effect of a family dynamic model specific to some peasant groups. one cannot underestimate the effect that a family, wife and relatives can have on a man’s future by controlling the perceptions of others. i cannot tell you how often a man has improved himself only to still take whatever wife or girlfriend is available in his peasant group, bad enough. subsequently when his professional contacts see his baggage, all of his sophistication is discounted. it is an amazing self-reinforcing cycle, and for his family oftentimes consciously done.
sometimes there is even internalized rage due to his internal struggle and repeating of the cycle. probably more common than we realize.
Guilty of this a few times, especially after a dry spell, once that goes I become more choosy.
Happened to me a few times. Reasons were different.
1) I was going through a pretty toxic break-up and feeling very shitty. Ended up hooking up with a girl in a night-club who was about a 3. That girl was borderline gross. However, I was emotionally a mess and remembered a phrase “pussy is still a pussy, feels good!” and was curious to see if it is true. Well, it isn’t. Went limp after maybe 3 minutes. I still remember the moment of feeling sorry for myself as I was walking her to my apartment, realizing what is about to happen…
2) Girl was only 19, looked kinda cute on her online profile picture, slightly on the curvy side, but still cute. Chatted the whole night, had a great time and decided to meet up. She sent me more of her pics later and yeah… seriously overweight. But she was so freaking nice and cute and into me that I just couldn’t turn her down. She was too nice of a person, plus I was curious to see if appearance is a deal-breaker for me. Sex was actually ok, but I didn’t see her again. Couldn’t look past the physical attributes. That was a good lesson.
3) I live in a small town (50,000 people) and there isn’t a lot of girls online. I know, I know, move to a bigger place. Anyway, there was nothing on the radar and I was bored and decided to go out on a date with this chubby girl who I didn’t find attractive at all. Reason? I just didn’t want to get too rusty when the hot girls came along. It was a simple first-date practice run for me. I knew nothing will happen, simply will have a chat with a new person for an hour, have a few drinks, a couple of laughs, and refine my dating skills in the process. Funnily, went on a bunch of dates soon after her and some of the take-aways from that date actually helped to lend a few hot girls. So, a positive experience.
I would say I am done with consciously going out/hooking up with girls who I don’t find attractive. I’ve done it, learned some things about myself, and wouldn’t do it again.
Its because these men want some attention that they arent getting elsewhere and these women give it to them.
I’ve done this in different contexts.
1. A woman is borderline attractive but in retrospect I realized that it was the novelty of being with a new partner that pushed her over the “will-bang” threshhold. The question is why did I continue to bang her. Probably laziness, avoidance of emotions associated with dumping yet another chick, and trying to keep up the momentum of frequent lays which always helped my confidence with women.
2. I’m guilty of aiming too low since it’s supereasy and doesn’t force me to have to expend any effort. I just kick them out quickly and don’t spend any extra time with them. But the amount of adoration you get from them is really nice. Super-hotties don’t always dish that out. They are frequently used to getting everything and they often are not used to giving out the warmth that average girls have had to give their whole lives.
(I’m a good-looking guy who unfortunately had a crazy mother and wimpy father who put all kinds of low self-esteem shit into my head)
However, I realized that aiming too low bc of fear of challenge, low self-esteem or overall laziness is actually a terrible idea. You should aim for whatever your SMV is in terms of looks, status, and sophistication. (I spell this out bc you can have it all but if you lack self-worth then you will feel like you can’t even get a homeless woman).
If you are a stud, aim for hotties. There are definite problems with shooting below your weight. You WILL start to think you are getting the short end of the stick and this will cause you to dump, avoid or play games with an otherwise very nice girl. I only bang girls who are very sweet and who are clear that they like me so I don’t want to give them the runaround. But I inevitably do this a bit if they aren’t hot enough. (The surprising thing is that once you bang them well, they do tend to put up with a lot). The women who are in to me are very nice to me and do not play games and so I don’t feel it is right to do that to them in return.
Two primary reasons:
1) They do it for validation. After all, don’t women, too, go out on dates with men they are not into?
2) They aknowledge that they are not sexually attracted to these women, but they date them anyway, because they think it will change, if they prove DTF or with a hot, feminine vibe, which never happens.
It could be a validation thing.
They are seeking the ego boost of being admired by women who they feel they are better than.
I’ll present quite an unusual scenario:
Living in a small town (pop 12,000), far from any metro area. I do not do online dating because it can’t work here. I have to do night game and social circle game. Clearly in this situation, it is about impossible to have a roster of 9’s without massive amounts of traveling. Yet I currently have 1 MLTR and 2FB.
I don’t have any 9’s, and I’m ok with that. I know I could have 9’s if I was in a more populous area. At first I did have a problem considering having sex with women I didn’t find super hot. But that’s how I got in to nonmonogamy. I had just been lsnfte by a woman I was defacto monogamous to but wouldn’t actually commit to monogamy with either (long before I heard of Blackdragon). At the time she cut me off, a woman I didn’t find all that attractive was going for me hard via social circle. I said “fuck it” and challenged myself to just do it and see if I could have some good sex with her anyway.
Turns out, she was quite adventurous in bed, and very giving, and while initially I hadn’t been that attracted to her, I started being excited to meet up with her because of her ambitious sex drive and willingness to do anything to please me.
My point is, if you are at all like me, the women you find a little less attractive, could end up becoming women you find attractive because of their sexual prowess. I personally no longer find it difficult to fuck women that are not super attractive, because I know they could be a super pleasurer type which is actually an attractive thing to me. I am a pleasure of sex man, so that might explain this a little better as well.
This particular woman I am talking about has recently came back in to my life after a 1.5 year lsnfte. She has lost weight and actually is quite attractive now, so in this case, it really did pay off to bring this woman in to my life. As when I first got with her it was just a “fuck it, let’s see if I can do this” kind of thing, and turned out to be great.
My answer to this question is because chicks who I do not find attractive are in my target market (at the moment). When I improve my attractiveness, so too will I seek out more attractive chicks. But because my confidence level with attractive chicks is not as high as it is with average ones, I’ll focus on the average ones for now because it will take less time.
This has happened to me quite a bit. Back when I was on the RSD boards, I posted stuff like this as a field report. And of course the hiveminded idiots there would be like “that seemed like fun, but I wouldn’t count that as a lay.” It was pretty much then (five some-odd years ago) that I realized that RSD and other big pickup organizations are not in the business of getting guys to succeed with chicks in general.
Social circle is important, peeps. In fact, I’ll go on record and say that if you are struggling with the opposite sex, look to your social circle first. Get some buddies, then everything else with fall in place. This goes double if you are introverted like myself and BD.
Playing this lottery seems quite bad time management.
definetly needed this one since im just getting started and at first I’m not getting the results I’d like. I’m going to implement those belief systems.
I seriously feel that Women are most def doing this too! I will sometimes end up on a date with a woman who I can tell fundamentally had no desire to be there. I used to get a little put off, but now I know it’s just a modern trend that I feel out sometimes to screen who’s For Real and Who Ain’t
Online Dating has an effect that has made this go up too.. Maybe some other modern dating and societal trends too.
Most def something we will have to analyze here.
Women make up their mind about you very quickly, so a very probable possibility is that within five minutes she decided she’s not attracted to you but didn’t know how to leave without hurting your feelings. I did have to cut some dates short, wishing them well and expressing my hope they would find a man with whom they would not spend the entire date staring out of the window.
Yes that is a good point. I also have the feeling that if the girl isnt very attentive/enthusiastic and doesnt respond much to your touching her etc its good to cut the meeting short and split the bill.
Yes but if you met from online its hard to tell in advance sometimes whether you will like the person or not. Personality can be for some people big part of attraction and that you dont really know until you’ve met them. Of course if you are on a date with someone you have met previously in person then this should not happen.
You might think, but consider that none of the “less attractive” women I’ve got with have I “nexted”. Therefore there are ones in my current roster. It might be bad time management if I ended up nexting some of them right away but I haven’t. And remember I am in a low-populated area, so I cannot expect a roster full of 9’s here.
The consensus answer to my question seems to be “I was in a negative state.” You were distraught over a past relationship, or you were bored, or you were lonely, or you were desperate, or you just got over a dry spell, or you were lazy, or you needed validation, and so on.
Since I never experience these negative states, that would explain why I never do this.
Interesting.
Some of your other comments:
I just ride out the first date as usual, not giving a shit about the outcome since I’m not going to fuck her, and wrap it up a little earlier (45 min or less instead of 60 min) the usual way, and move on. I consider the date practice.
NO! NO! NO! You should aim for whatever type of woman you like, right now.
NO! NO! NO! I’m not a stud at all (I’m chubby!) and I’ve always aimed for hotties, and often get them.
NO! NO! NO! You should aim for whatever type of woman you like, right now.
Some of you guys’ attitude about this SUCKS.
If you live in a tiny town like you do, this attitude is fine. But for everyone else reading this who live in or very near cities, please do not follow that advice or frame.
Yes, most women do this, but in their case it makes sense because they’re getting a clear benefit they crave; they’re getting free attention (which all women need). If I was a cute / semi-cute girl under the age of 33 I would love going out on first dates and getting my ass kissed by men who I knew I’d never fuck while they bought me free food and listened to me talk about my cat and my best friend, and you would too. (Over 33 is a different story; most of those women hate first dates.)
Hey black dragon. My name is Alex, i’ve been following your blog for a few years now. I believe you now, you are totally right. I just bought a ring for my girlfriend, I was going to propose to her. She lives with me, and we’re going to Japan and Thailand (where she’s from) for a month soon leaving May 8.
I just bought a ring, and now she’s yelling at me saying that I bought the easiest thing for her, that the ring is cheap quality (she hasn’t even seen the ring). We’ve been fighting a lot lately. But I think I now see how awful this situation I’m in really is. I’m basically stuck with her, and have to travel the world with her. She lives with me, so I can’t just kick her out.
I’m really thinking I never want to get married. I just lost $3,500 on her. You were right, I should never have gotten into my head the idea to marry this girl. I should never have gotten into a monogamous relationship. You were right. I should have listened to you.
Keep doing what you’re doing. Hopefully I’ll be able to recover from this relationship and have my freedom back.
This is a reason I’ve done it. The photos are borderline and sometimes you win…so it conditions you to keep trying, like a dog with spaced rewards.
Another reason I’ve done it is ‘easy’ aka she’s doing all the work and I just need to show up and fuck her.
Black Dragon: It seems that I can only lay women in the 6-6.9 range most of the time. I do get 9’s occasionally. But that only happens once in a blue moon (once a year usually). It’s not that there aren’t beautiful women in my town. I live in a town with a large university (41,867 students). There are hot women everywhere.
It’s just that they want the younger frat guys, who are on steroids, and throw around daddy’s money. The female students seem to prioritize looks above everything else because they’re being subsidized by uncle sugar (via student loans), their parents, and the top tier ones have sugar daddies. I would run sugar daddy game but I don’t have enough money to make it believable in the short term. Although I am working on that.
I seem to do well with women who are recent grads age 22-29. But there are so few of them in my city that they’re almost a non-factor. I have a son and want to be a part of his life so it’s not realistic for me to just move. Even if I didn’t care about being part of my son’s life (and I do) I’d take a huge quality of life hit when 22% of my pre-tax earnings were confiscated and given to his mother for child support. The only solution I can see is to work on my diet and physical appearance in the short term; as well as continuing to work on my income in the long term.
Also you should do a article on the shutdown of the craigslist personals! There were a ton of spambots in there, but it was also a decent place to post an ad and get passive pussy from women looking for adulterous relationships; or who had a fetish that they wanted to explore.
Is there a way to turn this around to our advantage? I know youve talked about this in bits and pieces mostly in relationship maintenance, but what about in pick up?
Its because youre a hardline introvert who doesnt need any attention at all. This is not the case for most people.
I agree with the point BD is making especially if you’re doing day or night game and are introverted. It’s stupid to waste your limited time and social energy approaching and conversing with women who are not attractive.
I’ve seen the number 8 used often by BD and others as the threshold to apply when deciding when to open a woman. An 8 means different things to different people, but I believe the general consensus if we plot women on a standard distribution 8’s or better are pretty rare. I think the women in the photos of most of BD’s recent posts on this blog are an 8 or better like the woman in the picture for this post, “stop thinking with your dick,” and “no such thing as casual sex?” But honestly, how many women particularly on online dating sites are that good looking. I would argue less than 2%, maybe even less than 1%, even if you’re in NYC, LA, Vegas, Miami, etc. If you go out daygaming or night gaming in the best areas maybe it’s more like 5%. And how many of those women do you actually have a chance to open?
The point I’m getting at is guys open women who they’re not that into because most of us have to. Most of us don’t have access to women who are 8+. I salute any man who is able to have any type of roster comprised of women who are 8+’s, especially if he can do so using traditional online dating sites like POF, OKCupid, Match, eharmony, etc. As I find the talent on traditional online dating sites is getting worse and worse. I even see attractive girls on those traditional dating sites post things like “hey, I’m not paying to use this site. If you want to reach me please hit up my Instagram @whatever.” Seems like if you even want a chance for an 8+ nowadays you need a combination of tight daygame, nightgame, social circle, and/or social media.
dude the brutally honest truth is that attractive women have options and if you’re not attractive yourself or viewed as attractive, the ‘numbers game’ for you will be 1 for 100 maybe 1 for 200 or even more (i’m being generous).
so you can either have ZERO sex or you can just get sex where you can while still moving forward.
i don’t really think white guys who are normal height (regardless of appearance) get how fucked people are who aren’t in those two groups. literally women look at you like a leper. and no this isn’t facial appearance (i get rated >90% on photofeeler constantly). it’s just about social programming and who is allowed to have sex and date attractive women and who is not.
This is interesting. @Joelsuf I’d be very interested in your response to what BD said above. There’s a fundamental disagreement between that and the view you’ve often advocated here.
It does seem like most guys are very reluctant to do most or all of their approaching on girls clearly several points above them in SMV. I get the rationale for having to ignore this and relentlessly approach hotties, but I also understand the reluctance. When you’re a 5 or 6 going after 8s and 9s AND you’re still a beginner at this, it does get very tempting to put at least part of your effort into plainer girls who are closer to a sure thing, just so that your sexual baselines are covered, and that you’re not riding a 6-month dry spell when you approach the hotties. Initally-super-low success rates with those girls that are way ahead of you in SMV can get frustrating.
Are you suggesting going on dates with unattractive women is a reasonable way of getting attention with no harmful side effects?
‘it does get very tempting to put at least part of your effort into plainer girls who are closer to a sure thing, just so that your sexual baselines are covered, and that you’re not riding a 6-month dry spell when you approach the hotties. Initally-super-low success rates with those girls that are way ahead of you in SMV can get frustrating.’
yes man exactly.
it’s possible to get with hot women. i’m a minority and short and i do it. but the numbers i have to put in are ridiculous. for example, last Friday I started a blitz — so I’m about 170 messages out, about 20 responses, about 4 women who (a) made plans to meet up with me and (b) flaked out (none of them texted or said much of anything, they just ghosted — after giving me their number and after confirming the day of).
if you are not part of the group in society that says ‘can’ have hot women, this is how attractive women will ALWAYS treat you — the SECOND anything remotely BETTER comes along, you are dropped.
like, i don’t to go three or four months with zero sex at a time.
The numbers are nowhere near ridiculous, and the conclusion is messed up. That you have a low priority is true, but that’s merely because you’re “that man from a dating site” while men in her real life are more important to her. BD acknowledges this and his advice is to move as quickly as possible. Note that with good photos she doesn’t even recognize that your SMV might be slightly less than that of Brad Pitt. Change your mindset.
Umm, I do move as quickly as possible. What I’m saying is that the flakes and long periods of time between sex with hot women — because remember, to get them into a regular FB situation you need to fuck them two or three times, and that is also very difficult when you don’t have much value to them — require SOMETHING to keep your sexual needs met.
and no, it’s not just i’m a guy on a dating site. it’s that i’m a guy on a dating site who happens to also be x y or z which = low value in her mind. it is what it is, you play through, but that’s the reality.
I was certainly guilty of this in the beginning, and I would definitely agree it was due to some negative that was pre-existing in my life. You could sum it up as “scarcity mentality”, and it was difficult to change, but it’s much better on the other side. I follow the rule when deciding whether or not to pursue a woman; It’s either a “Fuck yes!” or it’s a “No”. Nothing in between. No half-assing it. No making excuses as to why you need to bang this chick you don’t REALLY want to bang.
‘NO! NO! NO! I’m not a stud at all (I’m chubby!) and I’ve always aimed for hotties, and often get them.’
Okay but dude you wrote about how you were at one time the top 10% on OKC, so…lol.
not only that, but for some of us the ‘target market’ of women will always be some flavor of undesirable. i’m not making excuses — i put in the numbers, i do the grind — but i’ve never been a fan of ignoring reality.
I’m seeing a correlation between this article and this one.
The difference being guys that are already good with women versus guys who are not quite there yet. I understand the need for validation, especially if the guy is an extrovert like someone mentioned. I could also see if you are in slump or going through some shit in your personal life. What I’m seeing though, is that as a guy that is not yet an alpha, he wants desperately to be liked AND he wants to put in little to no effort AND he wants to be sexually attracted. In his mind, he might be trying to convince himself that he likes this girl, when he really doesn’t because he sees the path of least resistance and the pleasure of validation.
This happens with girls I think. They say, “oh maybe I will grow to like him and be attracted as time goes by.” With women, it is different though because they get higher off attention than men, they get financial goodies out of it, and most importantly they don’t have to get an erection; all they have to do is spread their legs or bend over.
Most men IMO are lazy like this and would prefer a much easier path. They would prefer to have submissive and feminine women, which allows them to pretty much just work hard and have a girl like this to come home to. They don’t want to go on date after date, put up with drama and shit tests, and all kinds of tedious and undesirable crap. This is where having a mission and being outcome independent come in. If you have something important to occupy your time with, you think you’re going to give a shit about a random girl or to a certain extent even a special girl?
Having a mission and not giving shit is seemingly too hard for most though. That’s why a lot of manoshpere guys including Roosh and a few others would rather go abroad, where the women are hotter, nicer and the men have to put in way less effort. Instead of changing themselves, they just change their environment, which isn’t a bad idea if you don’t leaving the comforts of your country, friends, and family support system.
No you’re not.
No you don’t.
Yes you can.
You don’t.
Return it the ring. I assume you still have the receipt.
Ah, if I had $10 for every man who’s said that to me over the last ten years…
(Actually… maybe I do.)
That’s like saying “Hopefully I’ll be able to drive down the street in the next few days so I can get some groceries.” You don’t hope for it. You do it.
Yeah I know all about that. Don’t think it’s worth an article though. Western authoritarianism continues to grow…
Yes, my entire dating system exploits to this to your advantage (give her 60 minutes of full attention without trying to fuck her, leave her while buying temperature is high, escalate on the second date, etc).
“Hardline introverts” never have negative states? “Hardline introverts” never have sexual dry spells? Or bad breakups?
Think you might want to re-word that comment?
(And even if you’re right (which you are obviously aren’t), then… therefore what? Go on a bunch of first dates with girls you don’t want to fuck? )
Your entire comment makes no sense no matter how it’s interpreted.
Incorrect. Read this.
That’s valid depending on the circumstances, but only if you are actively spending time improving, by increasing your confidence, outcome independence, game skills, and appearance. If you’re just sitting around settling for average looking girls because “boo hoo I’m not rich or ripped or white” then NO.
Read excuses #7, #8, and #9 here.
Excuse #2 here.
That’s fine, but that’s very different than refusing to approach hot girls, or rarely approaching hot girls because of SMV differences.
Seriously guys, if I had the attitude of not regularly approaching women far over my SMV 11 years ago, I wouldn’t be here today and I’d still be a monogamous nobody beta male.
That’s an 11% response rate! That’s better than mine, and I’m an online dating expert and one of the best in the world at online dating. There are tons of men reading these comments who would kill for numbers like that. It’s very easy to improve your results when your baseline response rate is that strong. Just imagine if you improved your photos!
A non-white short guy pulling down an impressive 11% response rate online… thanks for proving my point.
Exactly, because I follow all the numerous photographic techniques I outline in my online dating book to make my photos look as amazing as possible. They’ll work for you too, because I have a strong feeling you’re much better looking than me.
Every comment you’ve made here is an excuse.
Seriously, if you want to bitch and moan about how near-impossible it is for you to have sex with hot girls when you’re probably better looking than me, not an old man like me, and are getting better response rates than me without improving your photos like I had to, that’s fine, but you’ll never be happy holding on to attitudes like that. Or successful.
And seriously, read this article, the entire thing.
lol Out of curiosity I looked up your university based off that number. I would try to to live closer to a bigger city if it’s the university I’m thinking of. If you commute every week it might be better than out right moving and paying more in child support. Just a friendly reminder since it’s easy to make excuses in order to resist taking action.
I’m somewhat in the same boat, as I also have a kid with shared custody and I’m in a city of half a million and metro of 1 million, but it still feels small. I am thinking of commuting six hours each way and having two homes, although one is almost paid off so it wouldn’t be too bad.
There’s reality and there’s the prophecies you tell yourself to justify focusing on things you can’t control (the bias) instead of improving what is in your control (confidence, dating technique, the hotties focused on). It’s true there are biases in dating (I’m a minority woman on the bottom of the dating totem pole, statistically), but I don’t think only xyz men “can” get and keep hotties. Life tends to suck when you’re wrapped in strangers’ biases (real or assumed).
Hey BD,
This comment is not directly related to this post but thought you might find it interesting.
Todd V (former RSD intructor now independent) has begun to talk about open relationships in his content. He released a detailed Relationships seminar on his youtube channel.
Thought you might be interested in watching it and then giving your take on his advice in a later blog post.
Hell, can I, like, possess him or something? I run a pretty terrible opener -> response rate, probably because of where I live, but still, it’s like 1% or 2% or something tiny. A 10-11% opener -> response rate would be amazing.
Ok, I lied just a bit…because my response rate sucked so much I stopped sending the first message and started letting the chick like me or message me first, pretty good response rate there, but it’s not entirely under my control. I might hook up with a new chick via that method every 3-5 months…but I already have a few I’m seeing so it doesn’t bother me / I have no great need to find a ton more chicks. Now it’s about slowly upgrading quality.
whoa whoa, i didn’t say that i’m relying on these reasons to NOT ATTEMPT picking up hot women. so i fall into the exception you outlined above. i work really hard on my career, my fitness, etc. and approach hot women online. ill hire a photographer when i have the time. the photos i use are pretty good i thought — on photofeeler they are my highest rated ones.
my only point is that getting into a FB/FWB with a hot woman doesn’t come so easily and that until you get a few in rotation, satisfying your needs with less desirable woman is the only solution. i didn’t say it couldn’t be done.
“Hell, can I, like, possess him or something? I run a pretty terrible opener -> response rate, probably because of where I live, but still, it’s like 1% or 2% or something tiny. A 10-11% opener -> response rate would be amazing.”
I don’t overthink my opener. here are the two I use:
“what’s up”
and
“just saw your profile and wanted to say hi.”
occasionally, if I’m moved I’ll write something witty, but the girl has to have a pretty bomb profile. this one hot chick — who was white btw — had her entire profile written so that it could double as a rap song — that was pretty cool.
the amount of women who will actually give me their number and meet up is like 1/50-1/100 though, so…
That works well on Tinder. I believe BD has some better ones in one of his books for something like OKC.
As a couple commenters noted, it’s a female-like behaviour, done to fetch some food for the ego.
Lol. They (we) are the best candidates to all those life pits, obviously.
Also, way longer recovery times (you observe more, analyze more, and have more reasons to see the world as a worrisome intimidaging place of struggle).
few years back, i asked two fat chinese girls omfg she really looked like a typical american chick with bitchy attitude some more, i wanted to test my *dating skill* ended up she standing close to me, i can really smell her stinky body odour when she sweats
one of them was superb clingy asked for monogamy before hinting me whether want to come upstair with her or not. Another one was acting like diva she didn’t even know she made my wheels lose air once her ass landed on my car’s seat.
Never ever wanted to date fat chicks anymore, that feels disgusting in my gut. Same goes to a few years back i had sex with a GILF 24 years old vs 59 years old match. GODDAMMIT
I’d really like to be able to internalize this.
Personal 8’s & 9’s are giving me such a hard time, that I resort to 5’s & 6’s to get any action whatsoever.
However, more often than not I tend to be unable to perform in bed with them because I don’t really find them attractive.
It’s just that 8+ girls enjoy so much attention and have so many choices that they can’t be bothered with you or have a bitch-shield up that’s hard to overcome.
That’s why I guess many of us go for girls that seem attainable right now and postpone the ones we are really attracted to, to a future where we ourselves will be sufficiently hotter / higher status / and so on.
Maybe you are using wrong methods or are not putting the numbers in with lots of OI?
It’s far easier if you also have options…like go on 2-3 dates a particular day. Then if that 8+ seems too bitchy then you go to the next 8+ and then to the next etc.
With scarcity mentality you are not going far. You need to put in the numbers and create abundance.
I feel that men who go with unattractive women are lazy with lots of scarcity mentality(mostly betas) or horndogs who fuck anything that comes their way(you can find many alphas like this).
I forgot to add the following cases:
A-I meet women that I like, they look good, we habe sex and it’s good. But I don’t like the smell of her skin. Her personal musk. I try a couple of separate more days to make sure it’s not just some wierd thing she ate or drink or some weird time in hee period cycle. I think a solid 15% of women I fuck are like that to the point where I can’t really get over it. Even if she washes just before we have sex I am still gonna feel too disturbed after like 30min. All I can do with this type of women in a very quick wamb bam thank you mam irregular FB tyoe of thing.
A less diturbing version of this is are women with fishy pussy smell. The rest of their skin smell ok or even good. But thir pissy and pussh juices smell like rotten fish. That’s probably another good 15%.
B-I meet the girl, she looks like her picture, as hot. But she is just too “big” for me. Not big as “fat”, but too tall and/or big.
I notice you made another response which is slightly different and you acknowledge that its just hard to get to where you need to be with game. Which is my point. But I still think its relevant for me to comment on this.
When I finally got into game properly I was 47. I spent a year working on my game and did lots of education on it. (didn’t find BD unfortunately) But I spent a whole year doing lots of training and going out all the time and approaching day and night game. I was also doing online game (not very well) but I was able to get a few decent girls to fuck in my age group. But this was just sex for fun. I didn’t want these girls. I wanted to learn to get the young hot girls. I really wanted to go for the young hot girls and online didn’t work for me for that back then at all.
I got so many rejections and so much hate. I had young girls spitting venom at me about “I could be your daughter. Fuck off you creep!” It was pretty bad to be honest. But I didn’t give up and kept at it. My skills improved. I went to the US and manged to pick up a seriously hot young 24 yo from England one night. That was a big break through and pretty amazing. Still in contact and friends with her. I wish I new about the VYW who like older guys as BD teaches back then. Then back here I kept at it. Some success with a couple of hotter younger girls and getting better with mid 30’s girls rather than mind 40’s. SO much rejection though and a lot of nasty reactions from younger girls. I didn’t give up and one night I approached my current OLTR when she was 19 and I was 47. All my work and practice and experience and not giving up finally paid a dividend. And it just worked. She is my perfect 10 in terms of looks, body, personality, everything. Even being Bi which is what I was looking for as well. And now here we are almost 3 years later after having fucked over 130 girls together and still going strong.
I’m 5’11” so not short but not tall either. Decent looking. But I was almost 50 when I got into this shit and I was targeting low 20’s girls. So I wasn’t exactly what these girls think is hot. Game works if you learn it and keep at it. Not on every girl but it works a lot better than giving in to the excuses.
My response is that his observations aren’t wrong. They are what make sense to him. I’ll admit to taking much easier routes with chicks. I’ll also admit that I had some really nasty experiences with more attractive chicks in my youth (I was so socially awkward back then that I would get harassment accusations from attractive chicks quite a bit but not so from unattractive ones) so it kinda programmed me to believe that I was not worthy of attractive chicks.
I am still addressing this today, as it is akin to being sexually assaulted (something that ALSO happened to me in my youth); the pain and fear stays with you for a VERY long time and never really goes away. I remember what Elliot Rodger did 4 years ago and was like “holy crap, I was one step away from that. If I didn’t have a whole bunch of distractions I would have done similar.” BD has probably never been through the things I’ve been through and if he has I’d like to know what kind of superpower he developed to completely get over it all. I’m aware that I sound like a weak victim at the moment, but I’m just providing an explanation. And I’m not the way I was in my youth where my “solution” was to go full nihilist, do nothing about anything, and pretend that there is some kind of conspiracy against me. I’ve been taking steps to improve.
There was also a disagreement between BD and I about having female buddies. I argue that if you are inexperienced and have had your self esteem shattered by chicks like what happened to me in my youth, that it would behoove you to befriend a chick, drop all of your romantic expectations with her, and just have her be your buddy (without her taking advantage of you or anything). I met a person like this about 15 years ago and she wasn’t in my corner, I’d likely still be a virgin. I was THAT clueless and resentful. Again, EERILY similar to Elliot Rodger. So her telling me that I was worthy of female attention (but not her obviously since she was my therapist of sorts lol) as long as I keep working on my skills meant way more to me than when any of my male buds said it because the fact that an attractive chick was saying it “proved” it in a way.
I also STILL have no real input from BD about social circle. If you want to get with attractive chicks, you NEED a damn social circle and a social presence. There is no way around this. The more attractive a chick is, the more likely that her mind is still trapped in high school. This means the VERY first thing she thinks about when a guy hits on her is: How is this guy gonna affect my social standing? Chicks are VERY mindful of this, especially attractive ones. The average/unattractive ones? They’re just happy they are getting attention. Follow the basics (be friendly, mature, and cool, know how to flirt and make moves properly), and its on. From what I’ve been observing, it is NOT this way with attractive chicks. Especially now that we are part of the feminine imperative where chicks are being seen as the stronger sex.
All of this being said, I could just exclusively hunt more attractive chicks, but I would likely need to triple my commitment to succeed. Since my sex drive isn’t as high as BD’s I do not feel obligated and I would see such a thing as a waste of energy (at the moment). Got other stuff I want to master before “leveling up” with chicks.
Still, for anyone who HASN’T been driven to the point of hating every being with a vagina like I was in my youth and who needed to spend nearly half a decade to unwire that, yeah. Quit hunting chicks who you do not find attractive, there is no real excuse for you.
BD, how do you mentally categorize a woman that’s cute versus one that’s hot when that woman is showing a lot of skin?
When a cute woman is wearing revealing clothing, showing cleavage and legs, in the moment I get fooled into thinking she’s hot because her bare skin turned me on.
Makeup also hinders my ability to judge face attractiveness.
Now that I think about it, I sometimes bump an average woman up to cute due to this as well (cleavage, legs, makeup).
That’s true if the girl is approached via social circle game or night game in the presence of her friends. But that’s untrue if you approach her via internet game and you have a discreet FB or MLTR with her where she doesn’t introduces you to any of her acquaintances, friends or familly. Where basically you don’t go out of your place much when you meet and thus nobody in her social circle even has any clue that she is fucking a guy at the moment of her life (you in that case). Girls, especially the type you describe, fuck a lot “in secret”, not only hiding it from their social circle but even denying it if they were to be confronted.
If you want high end MLTR or OLTR and take part in her social circle, with that chick then ok perhaps this can be a problem if she never grew to get over this high school mentaly that you’re describing. But besides this specific case, you can bang hot chicks discreetely without anyone knowing. Discretion is the key word, NOT social game technique.
Happy birthday Caleb!
Cheers to you, man! All the best!
Now that this is soaking in…if I’m not sharp, non mega hotties behave towards me (some sort of inflated view of themself or disposable view of men) in the same lame ways an imagined mega hottie would. Might as well work towards what I really want. Plus my authentic desire to make things happen will be there, and I won’t be secretly annoyed or whatever with something I don’t truly want anyways.
Yea totally doesn’t make sense.
@Joelsuf: Thanks for the reply, and sorry for what happened to you.
I think that this has something to do with PUA frames, where some dudes would open girls they are not attracted to “warm-up”, or they just open random girls to “train” themselves how to aproach girls.
Another thought that comes to my mind is that beauty is subjective but there are some social programed general values of what a beautiful and hot woman is. Some dudes might a find a girl cute/fuckable but not hot enough to “show off” to the guys, and they’ll shot themselves in the foot.
“This means the VERY first thing she thinks about when a guy hits on her is: How is this guy gonna affect my social standing? Chicks are VERY mindful of this, especially attractive ones. The average/unattractive ones? They’re just happy they are getting attention.”
This.
The reason why I bring up being white and height is because they are highly valued in society and allow hot women to think ‘this guy won’t really hurt my social standing’ very easily.
If you have a high sex drive and don’t check those two boxes, you are either going to go long periods of time without sex or you’re going to have to have sex with not so great looking women while you’re searching for a hottie to get into an FB/FWB situation.
They’re just less open to anything more ‘permanent,’ even a MLTR or oLTR.
I’m not saying I don’t approach or put the numbers in. I have a date Saturday with a smokin’ hot woman who’s 10 years younger than me (of course, she’s flaked twice thus far so we’ll see).
I’m just defending the practice of having to nail some not so great looking broads while you’re out hunting for your hotties.
So obviously you have have no idea about women in general? You think all women are exactly the same? BD talks about 3 different types of women. You don’t agree with him??? You’ve not read his stuff but you are on his forum giving your opinion about how it goes down?
<em>So obviously you have have no idea about women in general? You think all women are exactly the same? </em>
Lol <em> did I say </em> I thought all women are exactly the same. I have plenty of idea about women in general. I’ve had success. And I’m just saying that for some people, they’ll go through long dry spells if they only focus on ‘hot’ women unless they just tag some less attractive ones.
I’m not sure why that’s so earth-shattering. And I’m also not sure why explaining how race and height impact the ability of one to GET and RETAIN hot women is like….anything but common sense.
I’m not saying that I refuse to approach hot women. Nor am I saying that one needs to give up. This is all in service of my original point: for some people, the less attractive women are just necessary to keep the supply of sex steady.
It depends whether or not a jacked off before hanging out with her. Ive made horrible, time wasting decisions out of horniness.
My strategy in employing game, whether it’s day, night, social circle, or online is to open women who I think are an 8 or better. I think I’ve seen BD post that he agrees that you should open women who are an 8 or better to you. I think the woman pictured in this post and many other recent posts on this blog are 8+ women, but honestly, how many women do you actually see who are that attractive.
I don’t know what exact percentage of women are 8+ but even if you live in NYC, LA, Vegas, Miami etc it’s probably less than 2% of adult women, maybe 5% of women aged 18-40. If you live in a small city, forget about it. On traditional online dating sites I’d argue it’s less than 5% of age appropriate women as the talent seems to be getting worse and worse on online dating sites as most attractive young women get more than enough date offers through living their day-to-day lives and through their Instagram.
In my experience it’s next to impossible to get an 8+ woman out on a date from a traditional online dating site today. Day or night game can work, but it can take hours to find one 8+ woman to approach. And I don’t know many successful men who have that kind of time.
Most of us can truly only have abundance if we’re shooting for women who are a 6 or below, especially if your method of game is OLD. I salute any man who has a roster of 8+ women anywhere in the anglosphere.
Complete horseshit!
Joelsuf – I have fucked hot married women who’s husbands were church pastors, ok?
Where was my damn social circle?
When I was in London (all by myself) I fucked a married + 4 months pregnant woman.
Where was my damn social circle?
I had zero friends when I first met my girlfriend online (and we had sex on our first date).
Where was my damn social circle?
Don’t fucking talk to me about women rejecting you if their reputations might be injured, mmmkay? That’s why you stay discreet and within the secret society.
The sexual marketplace is a matrix. Let’s say you’re at the bottom. Assuming a girl is still sexually attracted to you, you have three choices:
1. You can be rejected by her (despite her being attracted to you) because you’re not socially acceptable.
2. Raise your social status to become social acceptable by climbing the matrix hierarchy (the hard way).
3. Step outside the matrix, practice intense discretion, and tempt her away from the football playing jock, like a vampire from the shadows (the easy way).
Famous people, public celebrities, and those alpha 1.0s at the top of our social hierarchy are mere puppets – puppets of men whose names will never be in any history book; men whom no statue or monument will ever bear any image of; men who control those at the top through the one thing they need in order to have absolute power – anonymity!
History is decided by unknown and anonymous men standing in the shadows and fucking the wives of famous jocks!
Black men fucked white women in the 1800s despite being the lowest of the low in terms of sexual market value. The women only falsely accused them of rape when they became indiscreet.
Let me reiterate (I say this not to brag, but to prove a point): I have had sex with married women, women with boyfriends who were jocks, and other women who would get lynched by their social circle, husband, or boyfriend if anyone ever found out! They’d be kicked out of their churches, and sometimes even lose their jobs if I were to ever be less than fully discreet!
I think those girls from high school fucked you up, Joelsuf. It’s harder to be discreet in high school (though it’s still possible). They rejected you because you were connected through school. You were the public guy, which is when SMV comes into play. So you got it in your head that only SMV matters!
What about the married woman I’m currently fucking whose husband is a doctor? You don’t think that I’m toxic to her social reputation? What about the wife of the church pastor that I fucked for 18 months? You think she cared about her “social reputation?” Well, of course she did, which is why we both made sure she wouldn’t get caught!
Your sexual market value doesn’t matter at all if three things are true:
1. She is sexually attracted to you.
2. You have game.
3. You practice intense ASD busting discretion.
Remember the three words that every seducer must know – Discretion, Discretion, Discretion!
Yeah, if you’re the public guy within her social matrix who must manually climb the social hierarchy! If you insist on doing everything the hard way, be my guest, but the red pill secret society is the ultimate cheat code!
Joelsuf, you have a lot to learn from Halloween, which is the best day of the year to fuck married women! Learn about the concept of Saturnalia.
Create a separate universe where it’s just you and her, locked forever till the end of time. She didn’t cheat on her boyfriend, because it wasn’t really her. It was another her from another life, locked away in a separate universe.
This female inclination towards the pretension of inter-dimensional spiritual travel and dissociative schizophrenia (exemplified in romance novels) is extremely useful for the seducer! Halloween amplifies it times ten, but it’s not necessary.
I feel sorry for famous people, or public people whose sexual market value is higher than mine. They have to do everything the long way, be mindful of reputations, and all that. Whereas I bypass all that and become the guy she doesn’t count.
Men way uglier than me have it even easier (assuming the woman is attracted to them). A woman knows she would never fuck a man as ugly as that. That means he doesn’t count. So she “officially” never fucked him. So she can drop the guilt and shame because it wasn’t her and it wasn’t in this timeline, but a parallel one! Read romance novels for more. Or just watch sci fi, same thing.
The less socially acceptable you are, the easier the woman will be to get in to bed (assuming she’s attracted to you and you know what you’re doing) because, if you’re socially unacceptable anyway, then she might as well fuck you without dating or ceremony, since those rituals are only for a public sex life, not a private one.
Women love being naughty and transgressive. “Let me make you cum. Susan and Michelle will never know, your husband is out of town, your kids are in school, and you don’t sing in your church choir until 4. We have time.”
HAHA! Socially unacceptable sex is the hottest sex a woman can ever have!
Fuck SMV! Save that for the public people and the mainstream!
P.S. You might want to delete your Facebook page and all of your public social media. You don’t need any of that crap anyway. Just saying.
Jack outside the box, I would be interested to get to wherever you’re at. The boyfriend popular guy stuff never ends up working for me anyways. I would love to go dark and off social media.
If you’re in the Alpha Male 2.0 community send me a messege!
Straight to the babes!
Read this.
I can’t give you input about that because I’m not a social guy, nor is building or maintaining social circles my area of expertise.
Utterly incorrect. I get with attractive chicks all the time, have for 11 years, and I don’t have a social circle to speak of (outside of work).
Only women who are in your shared social circle. The hot girls I meet/fuck via online don’t know anyone I know, which makes it much easier for them to say yes to me sexually. They don’t give a fuck… but they would if we had tons of shared friends.
This is one of the strengths of online dating over social circle game. The fact she doesn’t know anyone you know is a huge benefit when there’s a large SMV / attractiveness difference.
I can categorize a woman into cute or hot within about 20 seconds, at the most, of real-life interaction despite those issues, particularly if I can see her entire body (i.e. she’s standing not sitting).
What you’re talking about is those first few seconds when you first see a woman. During that brief moment, yes, my dick is “confused” too. But only for a few seconds.
Thanks!
That’s more of what I meant, sorry if it wasn’t clear. Just so happens that the most attractive chicks available to me are in social circle.
I agree but only halfway. I’ll still contend that in this day and age where men need to walk on eggshells around chicks in order to avoid getting in trouble with the law (Rollo Tomassi speaks quite a bit about this), you still take a big risk in getting with chicks with higher SMV than you. Having a solid social circle where you are placed in high regard can lower this risk.
I did awhile back, and all I can say is that there are varying degrees of adversity that affect different people in different ways. However, I never argued that traumatic events should be used as an excuse to rationalize a lack of success. I DO argue that traumatic events mean that you need to triple your commitment and seek out proper resources to get on the road to recovery, which is something I did not do in my 20s and paid for by having extremely low self esteem most of my life.
Nearly half of every chick I have had sex with have been in an open relationship or marriage. Halloween has very little to do with that. Now if you are arguing that Halloween is when every chick unleashes her inner slut, I would agree. But again, it would behoove you to have a social circle to go to those Halloween parties, no? Do you really think it is a good idea to go to these parties by yourself?
1. Chicks are sexually attracted to men with high SMV.
2. Guys who have game (the ability to approach, invite, flirt, and close without looking awkward or needy) is a trait of…high SMV
3. If you have high SMV, there is no such thing as ASD, it just goes away.
Just one chick actually. But yeah, no shit. And that’s the missing link: The massive hit it took to my self esteem. And I’ve been working on it.
No, back then I got it in my head that no matter how high my SMV may be, if I hit on a chick I WILL be accused of harassment so I better just not express any romance towards them.
SMV matters about 80% of the time. But what many do not understand is that there are many, MANY things that comprise SMV. Incels believe that it is ONLY LMS–Looks, Money, Status. Its way WAY more than that. This is what I believe comprises SMV:
– (Perceived) Status
-Looks (appearance and style)
-Social Skills (ability to relate, approach, invite, close etc)
-Ability to take care of oneself and/or others
-Experience in love and romance
-Masculine traits (like outcome independence, high self esteem, being a leader, etc)
Chicks judge men based on these six things all the time. So when they have “socially unacceptable” sex it usually means that the guy they have sex with usually stands out in at least one of those traits. Do you need ALL OF THESE to get with chicks? No. But similar to BD’s Seven Life Areas rankings, so too there are rankings for this. That to me is what SMV is. So yeah, SMV is I would argue 80% of the equation with chicks. The other 20% is other stuff like location, demographics, being at the right place at the right time etc. Relying on that 20% while ignoring SMV to me is a tragic waste of energy.
Sounds so 2%.
You may well find yourself thrown under the bus for her to save face, which wouldn’t happen if no-one in her life knew you. Like some other poster on this blog, who was seen with someone other than the MLTR by a mutual friend. The MLTR was OK with the other girl, but not with the exposure, and she left. So much more likely than a false rape accusation, and easily avoidable by doing the exact opposite of what you’re suggesting.
Discretion is the name of the game. Note that most social circle game guides suggest playing on the very outskirts of the circle, e. g. hitting on those who tag along with friends of your friends at parties.
This made me laugh. But also reminded me of a mate of mine. He was at a conference in Hawaii once and saw this smoking hot blonde standing in the foyer. He has amazing natural game and is married. So he approached her. Ends up fucking her and starts an affair with her. She turned out to be a well know international Christian singing star. She was there in Hawaii doing a concert for some big Christian conference. Her husband was the Principal of this massive Christian school that was attached to her church. He and her were both also elders of the church as was her father. There are heaps of videos of her on youtube. She’s been on so many Christian television shows in the US and all over the world. Massive concerts everywhere.
My mate and I double teamed her one day and then him and I and another mate of his triple teamed her one day as well. I know he had a few threesomes with other girls and her as well. He had a lot of fun with her over the 3 years they were having the affair. Not sure it would have been good for her social standing if anyone knew about any of that.
Then do online dating and/or daygame in addition to social circle game. Easy solution.
Incorrect.
1. I have had sex with scores and scores of women far beyond my SMV (in that they were far more physically attractive than me).
2. I have never, ever “walked on eggshells” around any of these women. Not even close.
3. I have never, ever had any legal problems, or even a hint of legal problems.
4. I personally know (not on the internet, but personally know/met in real life) several other men who have also had sex with many women far beyond their SMVs who were complete and total assholes to these women (unlike me) and they never had any problems either.
You are making excuses. But like that other guy making excuses above, if making excuses is what you want to do, that’s cool with me; just don’t expect to be long-term happy while making excuses.
Excuses or happiness, you can only have one.
So can online dating, and with much less work.
There is no risk you put the numbers in with hot chicks you get hot chicks. Social standings only gives you a boost just like looks. If you have this defeated or lazy mentality you are going to get the deserved results.
This is how the “law” works.
Sometimes it seems to me people like being unhappy. At least in the short term. I guess they are having difficulties and want a short term band aid by having people feel pitty for them and get the attention to feel better, because they know to actually get up and do something about their challanges is going to take some time and work so they do this instead.
I’ll admit that I had a phase like this, where I enjoyed being unhappy and wanted others to be unhappy. I don’t think I’m making excuses so much as admitting that if I want chicks who are more attractive than the ones I’m getting with right now, I will have to triple my commitment until my SMV is a bit higher (get a better physique, improve my self esteem with attractive chicks, etc), then it will be just as easy.
I don’t believe I’m making excuses at all. An excuse would be “well my SMV isn’t perfect therefore I can’t get ANY attractive chicks.” And unfortunately, that is how most of the “red pill” crew think, which is why I never took them seriously: They literally believe that if your SMV levels (which to them is ONLY Looks, Money, Status) are not perfect, you can’t get with ANY chicks, let alone attractive ones.
They also believe that chicks are throwing around rape accusations all the time and I don’t really believe that is accurate. Although it IS higher than 2%. It’s more like 5%-10%, but still nothing to worry about…yet. In the 2030s or so, when it gets to 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, THEN it will be something to worry about. Good thing I’ll be in my 50s by then and I won’t really care about sex as much as I do now. And even then, these are just predictions. I could be (and hopefully am) wrong about it. But we will see.
I DO admit that I have a mental block with attractive chicks because of events that took place in my high school years. I will also admit that I have settled on average and unattractive chicks. This doesn’t mean I *can’t* get with attractive chicks, it just means it will require more effort than the average or unattractive ones. I’m pretty aware of this.
Look, its not that I’m not aware that anyone can get with anyone regardless of SMV just because of random elements. BD’s method, which is to just put in numbers as well as knowing what to say/do, relies on these elements of randomness.
Correct. I’ve talked that in great detail before. Those people are always going to have trouble with my content, or at least strong aspects of it.
Yes, its hard to talk to such people about or even have any kind of serious discussion. I believe they just need to go through some cold showers so to speak where they reach a point they realize they need to change. It has to come from within not from outside. I sometimes make the mistake of trying to convince people who are too stuck doing what they do that doesnt get the results they want due to their ignorance but arent prepared to accept any other views. I thought by explaining it to them logically they would just change but often the response is anger.
Are you crazy? Its nowhere near that. How often do you hear about this stuff? You can probably count the cases youve heard about with your fingers, and probably dont know anyone in person who this happened to. Now, how often do people hook up / do ONS? Thousands of cases. Every day. Even if you arent good at math you can see this has to be way way less than 0.1% chance. Also keep in mind that a false crime accusation is an extremely serious case of fraud. In most countries this would be on the level of grand theft. So if the girl did that and it turned out it was a false accusation shes looking at some serious jail time. Finally, if you follow the flags system, you already at least live in a different country than that of your citizenship so getting out of the country if necessary should be possible. Seriously, this is the most pathetic excuse ever.
Quite a bit actually. I personally know a few buddies have been accused of sexual misconduct. BD has a few articles about it. The #metoo thing has pretty much trained chicks to accuse a man who they regret having sex with of rape. In certain colleges they have etiquette classes of sorts where guys are trained to ask chicks permission to have sex, which is something JOTB has written whole novels about here.
Now, this kind of stuff is a freak occurrence if you do things right which is what I do. I was arguing that this kind of stuff happens to 5-10% of guys who do not do things right. It could get to that 1 in 4 number of men who get accused of rape (like I said, I’m predicting its gonna get to that level in a decade or so) and I’ll still be good cuz I’ll know what to do.
Its not an excuse as I still pursue sex. If I was using it as an excuse, I wouldn’t be pursuing sex, and I certainly wouldn’t be reading blogs like this which are about improving your sex life. I’d be on Return of Kings or something with all of the other Matt Forney and Roosh nuthuggers who need their manosphere hugbox to feel good about themselves. Or even better, I’d be trolling feminist/progressive minded blogs and stuff (which I admit, was quite fun back in the day, seeing people online get triggered and butthurt over things is some of the most entertaining things to do). And again, I am out of that phase.
It is. But we are approaching a narrative where there is no such thing as a false rape accusation however. Just like in years past, when trad-cons ruled everything, there was a narrative that told us that there was no such thing as rape. Again, this does not bother me one iota. Unlike most “red pill” people I don’t think its ever gonna hit critical mass. However, it may be something to watch out for in the future.
All right, I know BD won’t have anything to say to this but to you readers out there, I just want to put this out there.
What evidence is there, that this guy is legit? He has _never_ posted one single tiny little drop that any of his claims are the least bit true. Just as 90% of the female profiles on dating websites are fake to lure men in, the entire industry of PUA and dating apps are ridden with fraud, and BD clearly is as well and I’ll tell you why, besides the obvious point that he has never ever demonstrated any proof whatsoever, we also have zero evidence that anyone has ever duplicated his success in even a small degree.
I am a male model. I literally get paid to take my shirt off at parties. I have hundreds of professional photographs to choose from when creating an online dating profile.
I read several of BD’s books and put his advice into action following it very methodically. I have sent out thousands of openers, and I have never gotten a date. I can count on one hand how many times I’ve even made it to the “three reply” mark where I could even ask a girl out!
1. BD’s claim: He sends hundreds of openers out at a time, and he only sends them to personal “8’s” and above. He further claims that this was true even when he first started dating and was severely balding, and seriously overweight. He claims he was able to date and bang super hot, 18-23 year old girls right off the bat, with no game and no dating skills and a well below average physical appearance on top of it all.
My experience? 1. There are not “hundreds” of 8’s and above to open in the first place. Maybe 40, in a city of 5million people. If BD is blasting hundreds of women, they are 4’s and 5’s at best. I’ve never even received a _reply_ from an actually attractive woman on a dating site, and I am a guy who is literally professionally good-looking, and my opener, remember, is right from BD’s directions in his book.
Conclusion: BD is lying, or he is banging really unattractive women.
Can any single guy here on this site honestly say that you have duplicated BD’s results even in the tiniest percentage? Are there a bunch of overweight balding middle aged guys on here who seriously are banging five or six super hot college girls every week from online game based on BD’s techniques? Show of hands please.
@Jarrod
Let’s see some proof you are not talking shit first.
Like your “professional” “male model” photos.
Actually, that’s not at all what he claims. He’s said he wasn’t able to bang girls that young for several years after he started online dating and stuck with women his own age for that time and had a lot of problems with it. He has an entire series of articles on this blog about this.
I too think BD overestimates the attractiveness of many women he’s banged, but lying about what he’s said isn’t going to help your case.
40 8’s in a city of five million people?
What little credibility you had: Gone. And for a minute I thought you had a legitimate complaint. *shrugs*
I have. 30s, a little on the thick side, thinning hair, banged several hot birdies using some of BD’s techniques, and I did it in a city that BD has said is one of the hardest in North America.
Oh, he’s talking shit. Having a little trolling fun.
Yes. I have not followed all of his advice, but some of the stuff I did follow did work. For example improving my profile and photos has resulted in me getting about 4-10 times more matches. Following his advice to be very pushing in arranging first dates has resulted in me getting first dates about once a week on average. Every second of those girls I took home and something has happened with most of those. I slept with several women over the last year who were just from online. I am not sure what would happen if I followed all of his advice because I did not do that yet.
Would I have gotten there without BD? Probably yes, since his online dating / pick up advice isnt that new /revolutionary as such but hes the only one I know whos promoting a system that isnt monogamous which is what I want. No one else I know or read seems to know how to make that work and BD is quite convincing about it with the arguments being consistent and logical and fit with my own observations. He also promotes other ideas which I have already known to be true beforehand like outcome independence.
You probably have some insane standards or live somewhere like china (and dont like chinese women). Then I can see this works. BD’s advice is always to move. I live in a city with about 200 000 people (but a large university population) and as such there is a disproportionate number of hot chicks. I can walk on the street for 20 minutes and see 40 girls who are an 8 to me. So in a normal city with millions of people in a country where you find the women attractive you should have several hundreds of women to chose from. You sound like some women who say crazy stuff like that most men are below average. Stuff that doesn’t even make sense per definition. Same as your 40 girls who are an 8 in 5 million.
I am early 30s and have lots of hair and athletic figure but had like zero matches / dates in the past. I look the same as before but I have more systematic approach and my attitude is different.
Why is that most of the time when someone is supposedly making claims some advice / coaching / guru / teachings / whatever is fake its always an article that either doesnt make sense or they list ideas that are irrelevant? Why dont these people try to make a logical argument for the reasons and back it with some scientific data?
Now that bit at least is just silly. I could go out now, before nine o’clock on a Sunday morning, and be not unlikely to see an “8” or two in a ten-minute walk to the shops. And that’s just in my little corner of London, a little corner with a few thousand people, nothing like five million. (Of course, not all of those “8”s will be available to me, but some are.)
i feel like our comments are being categorized as excuses when they’re anything but.
once again — i am taking action.
tonight i went on that date with a BEAUTIFUL (easy 8) young chick.
and it went terribly. from the moment she got there her body language was pretty closed (she kept her purse in her lap). she was friendly enough but barely made eye contact didn’t really go anywhere with sex talk, was totally not seeming open to kino.
played pool with her, showed her how to aim, she slightly warmed up — nothing spectacular. then -she- said she had to get going, hugged me by the car. i didn’t even bother bringing up a second date and i’m pretty sure never gonna hear from her again.
last night i hit it off with a BEAUTIFUL (another easy 8) young woman. she had been looking at me all night but logistics got in the way of me approaching. finally, as soon as i’m able to sit near her, she asks me the time, and from there she starts asking me a lot of questions. she lets me know she’s single. she lets me know the guy she’s there with is just her friend (def true from body language and the beta orbiter look of him). she even suggests hanging out sometime, i get her number.
text her today tell her who it is and say we should hang out sometime this week and that i’d like to get to know her better. response? hey truthteller!
BRUTAL! completely ignored the hangout request.
so a week blitz, 170 messages, 24 replies, 5 numbers (+1 offline), 4 flakes, 1 date 0 lays
it’s not ‘excuses.’ i know i’m trying my best here. it’s just a fact — hot chicks are just hard to snag esp if you do suffer the defects i mentioned and if you can’t endure dry spells you need to fuck less attractive girls. no way around it.
Thats normal when you meet people from online sometimes. Sometimes people have different expectations based on photos. Id just end it early and split the bill. There were cases when a girl acted like this and still went to my house for second date but then that was bad as well: just sitting there with arms crossed the whole time…. Makes one think do some of them just come meet you because they are bored and have nothing to do? That particular girl had told me she had many dates that didnt work for her… hmm I wonder why? Anyway I am not her therapist. So seems in these cases its best to just end it early.
I am starting to discover that there hard cities/countries and easy ones. In the place where I live its similar level of struggle you describe (though I know I am doing loads wrong, but its not easy for me to change those things from day to day). I am planning a trip to one city in another country soon so I changed my location to tinder there and within less than a day I got like 50 matches there… wtf. Also I did sign up for seeking arrangement just out of curiosity (I cant afford sugar daddy game) and within hours I had girls looking like models hitting on me. And that was with me putting there that I am in a relationship and looking for some cute girl who likes to get dominated by me and nothing else. One thing I am gonna do next is getting better photos and trying to dress more “expensive”. Would be nice to make it work without having to change city/country but its quite some work. On the bright side if we manage that then should be a joke in other places in the future.
@Jarrod
You are either a complete moron with no personality or full of shit.
If you are a male model you would be killing online using BD’s methods. I have friends who aren’t models but are tall and very good looking and they slay it online. In a city of 2 million or a bit less. Your idea of an 8 must be fucking silly because there are way more than 40 in this city. Fuck there would be more than 40 professional models here for sure. Girls who get paid to be pretty. WTF are you talking about???
I don’t use BD’s online dating advice as that’s not where I’m at personally but I use all his other advice and its pure GOLD!!
You realize no one on here cares about your stupid attempt to discredit BD for whatever pathetic reason you have. We are just here happily enjoying the amazing life following his advice gives us. Maybe go troll somewhere else.
truthteller they are excuses because I see a lot of mistakes in your descriptions.
First get ahold of how you handle things. It all starts from you not women. And if you start doing most things right you will see better results.
And why do you care if a prospect replied hey truthteller? Move on
Oh dear. You need a red pill stat!
No dude. She’s not. The cops will refuse to arrest her in order to avoid “discouraging real victims from being believed.”
Men on American college campuses have been expelled because of this shit! It’s a growing epidemic!
Just…….watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COaIj8fu8CU&t=70s
And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RliMu2JxVr0:
okay what did i do wrong
i guarantee you going for more kino beyond showing her how to shoot pool on the date would have ended in disaster. i guarantee you me prying or attempting to talk about sex more than i did would also not have ended well. like, i tried to make the best of a bad situation there. maybe the only mistake is that i stayed for an hour instead of leaving after 15 minutes? but i don’t really think so. nothing wrong with a college try.
with the other girl, i don’t know what else i possibly could have done.
this is why i dislike a lot of ‘PUA’ manosphere ‘analysis.’ it just assumes that because things didn’t work out, you necessarily caused the bad outcome. you could always be better, but the reality is that IT IS A NUMBERS GAME.
and what do you mean why do i care?
i DID move on. i deleted her number to ensure avoiding any kind of further response.
but like…frustration is fine as long as you’re proactive, which i am.
as i said tho, this is a week with 0 sex. so how many weeks am i supposed to go while holding out for a ‘hot’ girl?
again, address the main point: there are situations where you just have to lower your standards to get your needs met. and if you haven’t been in that situation, you are likely white and/or tall — FYI 5’11 gets confused for 6’0 all the time.
HAHAHA!!!!! Awesome!
Yeah, those with a public Christian persona tend to be the horniest and sexually wildest people of all! The contrast is super hot! And these are the best examples of secret society sex that probably anyone can possibly give! No social circle required. Just discretion and a vibe that communicates from her point of view that “he just gets it.”
Man, this is priceless! I’m wondering though if (1) she and her husband are secretly in an open marriage and are both hiding it from the Christian sheep, (2) he is cheating on her too with multiple women while thinking she is his pure angel, or (3) he is a true believing beta male Christian chump who’s fucking no one but her twice a year (on his birthday and Valentine’s Day) and thinking she’s his angel, while she bangs you and other men behind his stupid blue pill back!
All three are equally believable to me, considering what I have seen and experienced.
That’s really, really cool! I have never had sex with a famous woman, unless it was at the one swingers party I attended, but I wouldn’t know because everyone was wearing masks. Still, I would love to screw the holy crap (pun intended) out of a famous woman who touts herself as pure, Christian, and virginal (or faithful to her husband) in public, while being the biggest and most wild sex kitten in her double life! That’s like…..the mother of all turn ons for me!
The closest I ever came (heh) was sleeping with those 3 married Christian women with husbands who were church pastors (unrelated to each other in any way), but they weren’t famous in any way (except in their neighborhood).
Fantastic! Nice work!
Did she swallow for Jesus? It’s a sin to let a man’s seed spill on the ground!
You know, my girlfriend and I never made this a habit, but once in a great while, we’ll be sitting on her couch watching TV and some super hot Christian woman with very provocative clothing will show up on the screen telling us to feed African orphans or some shit, and my girl will say something like, “That woman is no Christian. Her tits are fake, and she’s done it with at least 20 men. I can just tell.”
But my girl’s biggest (and really only) “Christian” obsession is Victoria Osteen! You know Joel Osteen? That hyper-feminine faggot who runs that TV mega church out of Texas? Well my girl watched a few of his sermons (in one of them, he confesses his huge fear of squirrels, lol) and several interviews in which both he and his wife are interviewed.
She said the contrast between her and him is astounding. My girl’s, more or less, exact words were, “He strikes me as a pussy who will get gender reassignment surgery if she ever leaves him, and she strikes me as a whore who married him for money and status while having lesbian orgies on the side and probably also getting dicks in every orifice. Just my initial impression.”
HAHA!!!
You hear that Joelsuf? As long as you’re “in the know,” all the beta rules about public status, money, social circles, and all of the crap that society uses to keep the sheep working cease to matter! Secret society sex is where it’s at!
Sometimes I ponder just how shocked the average man would be if he knew about our world, what’s possible, and what all the “good girls” that he knows (including perhaps his own sister or mother) are doing behind his brainwashed ass!
Well done man! Thanks for sharing! More men in this community need to hear shit like this to open their eyes!
Nice. Then do it.
I’ve said this before, but I’ve always encouraged men to seek out some type of pagan community in their area (just google it and see what comes up near you). You can find contacts that will eventually lead you to poly communities.
And they will definitely connect you to women in open marriages, and those women’s friends who are jealous of the open marriages and will definitely cheat (but just to explore, so it doesn’t count, wink, wink).
Online dating also has the potential to connect you with these types of women.
I’m not, but I have my own blog in the making I’m coming out with this June. I may eventually become a member of your community also though (when I get some time).
I think he was just a blue pill chump. She had sex with him a lot more than twice a year though. She eventually left him and the church a few years later. Not sure about him cheating on her. She spent a lot of time away from the family though as she traveled a lot with her singing career.
Some of her youtube vids a so funny. Intro by some dickhead Christian old guy about how amazing she is and then her singing in this long flowing dress and smokey background with light shining through etc. She was a seriously hot blonde girl though. Similar look to Ferggie. So funny watching those videos (doing it right now) and remembering DPing her with my mate. Haha.
Haha she sure did. 🙂 She did everything. My mate was a classic natural. 6’2. Good looking. Never done a day of game training in his life. But was crazy good at it. He is very alpha though and a bit kinky. He had this routine he used to use with girls on ONS’s and even after he was having affairs with them where he would talk them through a number of crazy fantasy role plays while fucking them. I’m not going to go into them here but they were so kinky some of them I could never even do them myself. Too much for me. But apparently they used to drive the girls crazy. Most of his affairs were with really hot girls that were high level business women making big money. Alpha females. Anyhow I know he actually got her to act out quite a few of them in real life with her and pushed her to some extreme limits sexually. Stuff that I would never do.
So true. Even in the swinging scene. Some of the shit that goes down with avg teachers, nurses, school mums etc. Their friends and acquaintances would be blown away if they knew what they were up too on the weekend. haha.
pretty sure the average man is aware of those things and CORRECTLY surmises that they are beyond his reach. just like everyone can’t be a millionaire, not everyone has the ‘whatever’ to be a part of the non-stop orgy of this secret society. i mean you just described one of the participants as a good-looking, tall, white guy who had natural charisma…
no shit? dude gets mad pussy?
WHOA. you really are spilling some beans. SECRET SOCIETY MEMBERS HATE HIM.
But the article wasn’t about not having sex with girls who arent total hotties. It was about hitting on girls you arent attracted to at all to the point you dont wanna have sex with them. There is nothing wrong with banging a girl you find attractive that you wouldnt bang if you had better options, as long as you still find her attractive.
Any examples?
I dont really get what is this secret society stuff about. Is it meant as an actual society where people meet who satisfy certain criteria and just fuck each other, or is it meant as a methaphor for fucking around under the radar?
I’m not talking about walking around and seeing 8’s. I see 20 8+’s every single day wherever I go. I am talking about women with active dating profiles in online dating sites, which is where BD claims he gets all his women.
Just as it recently came out that Ashley madison, with 20million male profiles and 5.5million female ones, something like 1500 of them were real women actively using the site. BD has a HUGE financial incentive to tell people what they want to hear: “you can bang super hot young chicks from your living room and it doesn’t matter what you look like!” and all he has to do is be able to write, people are so eager to believe it, they don’t even bother to recognize that the guy literally has ZERO credibility.
Its true that a lot of dating websites are fake. I don’t trust any website where the basic functionality is behind paywall. For example Tinder has a basic functionality for free and the paid stuff is mainly useful for doing blitzes or for preparing dates in advance when traveling. Ive tried different apps over the past months and Tinder seems the only one that gets consistent reasonable results. It probably mainly has to do with number of users in my area than anything else though. I can get new dates every week on average with this and sometimes they are 8+. In the past it did not work so well it does these days there was no website that had enough users basically so offline dating was the online option. Maybe this is the case for you where you live? If you see 20 8+ every day and you are a male model like you say you should have no problem picking them up during the day on the street.
As far as I remember this is the opposite of what he writes. He always says that looks do matter and at the same time you need to work on your social skills. Also, he says a lot of stuff people dont want to hear. For me what he says is all logical and fits together but my problem with his stuff is that some of it is very hard to implement and he does not explain some stuff enough because (I assume) its obvious to him and probably a lot of other readers here but is not to me.
Yes Jarrod can’t go 10 seconds without lying and misattributing something BD has said so he can troll and bitch.
He’s one of those young angry guys BD talks about. He’s here to throw a tantrum, not to actually make any cogent points, because he has nothing else better to do.
Can you give specifics to this? What do you specifically think is hard to implement and what needs more explanation?
Only person with ZERO credibility on here is you! He doesn’t say looks don’t matter at all. In fact he gives a whole heap of tips on maximizing your looks.
Your trying to use some stupid misinformation about online dating to discredit everything BD writes about. HAHAHA good luck with that. 🙂 Lots of us guys are actually using BD’s ideas in the real world to have success with women in many different ways.
Shit I must have got really lucky then back when I was married and used Ashley Madison to find a couple of really hot young women to fuck. There was definitely a lot of fake profiles though.
Jerrod, I’m sorry if my online dating book didn’t work out for you; you’re more than welcome to get a refund for it since all of my ebooks come with lifetime money-back guarantees for any reason.
As for the rest of your statements, you’re attacking things I’ve never said and don’t believe, so I can’t help you there. (Perhaps if you could attack something I’ve actually said, then I could respond.)
Lower your standards? Sure. Go for the uglies? That’s just pathetic. As you’ve said it’s a numbers game.
Start with 7s get two in your roster build your confidence then move up the ladder. You have a confidence issue and this is the main reason that damages your dates. If you talk about sex but you do it wrong, women will sense it especially hotties.
“In the know” about what? Some chicks are just horny. That’s all I got out of that. Society has finally “allowed” them to be horny. The stuff I’m talking about isn’t “rules” its just good stuff to have. I don’t get how you have such a hard time understanding this, but at no point did I ever argue that low SMV guys can’t get with high SMV chicks. It just means its more difficult (guess what, BD says the exact same thing). Which is why if you have low SMV you should get with chicks your level or under this way you are using your time better. Then as your SMV improves it is easier to get with more attractive chicks. That will never change no matter what the narrative is.
I agree. The whole “you can get with the most attractive chicks with no effort no matter what your SMV is!!” line is a classic PUA bait line that is used to attract sucker incels into providing said PUAs with a steady passive income for decades. However, BD is no such individual, as he talks about improving SMV quite a bit in his books and blogs. RSD and other popular PUA networks, on the other hand…
I agree. And its kinda weak that this is seen as a “negative opinion” around here. Aim for your SMV or lower. If you aim higher then it will take longer. I’ve understood this for about 15 years.
I will admit that most men sell themselves short on SMV (that is, it is a lot higher than they think). I think that’s been the crux of my struggles with better looking chicks for awhile.
Lower your standards? Sure. Go for the uglies? That’s just pathetic. As you’ve said it’s a numbers game.
yes. and playing the numbers gives one the choice of a) no sex for months at a time or b) lowering your standards and maybe having to get an unattractive chick every so often.
Start with 7s get two in your roster build your confidence then move up the ladder. You have a confidence issue and this is the main reason that damages your dates. If you talk about sex but you do it wrong, women will sense it especially hotties.
yeah dude, as I’ve said, getting two 7+’s in the roster (as in a fwb situation minimum) takes AWHILE. i’ve pretty much messaged all of the currently 7+ women in my one week blitz. so i’m going to have to just wait for new ones to either pop back online slowly.
confidence comes from competence. and if you don’t get a lot of chances, well, it’s hard to legit be ‘confident.’
the hard reality is that the easier you are to replace and the less social appeal you have (being short -5’4-5’6 territory — is a major social ding, being non-white moreso if she’s white, neutral if she’s not), the longer it will take and the less ‘confidence’ you’re going to have.
And its kinda weak that this is seen as a “negative opinion” around here. Aim for your SMV or lower. If you aim higher then it will take longer. I’ve understood this for about 15 years.
on paper i have great SMV — professional degree, very high income, have my own condo, nice car, etc. but those things really matter a LOT less in these situations. i can verify all this stuff.
but i’m not the norm, and that’s the point. some people are just kinda screwed and have to accept that. and those people are going to have to lower their standards or face long dry spells.
not only that, but it’s hard enough having some chick act aloof and cold toward you who has done almost nothing in life and who isn’t more facially attractive than you are without becoming bitter — you want to add not getting laid AT ALL to that?
No, its smart. Now I don’t mean get with the uglies forever, but if someone is so inexperienced and insecure that they are intimidated by any chick, then it would behoove them to get with uglies. Then progress from there. So it isn’t pathetic, its part of a progression for those who have been “traumatized” by the more attractive members of the opposite sex such as myself.
Agree 100%. They are the types who get real pissy and never have any sex because they “deserve good looking chicks and won’t settle for less” yet when these specimens try to get with these attractive chicks they do all kinds of outcome dependent things. One of my buddies is like this. It has been FIFTEEN years since he has had sex last. And why? Cuz he won’t go for uglies. He ADMITS that he sucks with chicks and is really outcome dependent but he refuses to lower his standards. Not many know that when it comes to ugly chicks it doesn’t matter if you are outcome dependent because they too, are outcome dependent.
Me? I go for them all when I’m in hunt mode. I just fooled around with a meh looking 33+ single mom the other day, and will probably have sex with her the next time I see her. And a better than average chick in her late 20s in my social circle complemented me on my hair the night before so I’ll be inviting her somewhere soon. A big mistake that most guys make is sticking to one “type” of chick.
That just means you have money and some status, a small portion of SMV. I know people like that but they can only get with unattractive chicks because everything else about them sucks. Also money is starting to become more of a non-factor for chicks, since nowadays, chicks can easily make as much (and even more) money than most men.
I think this looks like the symptom of an “SMV illusion”. Some part of you knows what your real SMV is and therefore what are the girls in the same SMV range you can get reasonably easy. The other part of you thinks that that level of SMV is too low and creates delusion of much higher self perceived SMV.
These two parts are in permanent conflict and they take turn to rule your brain. The realistic part is trying to get you laid while the optimistic part tries to avoid negative experiences associated with low SMV. The result is net waste of energy, time and resources. Your personal integrity takes a hit every time this happens. Also you don’t really have a coherent strategy. All because of keeping that illusions to boost your confidence.
I haven’t read all the comments so maybe my thoughts have already been talked about.
I would say that on a very fundamental level men go on dates with unattractive chicks because of the basic drive men have to take action. On top of that by taking this type of action they lie to themselves that they are being productive. It’s the same behavior that people have when they do things to keep them busy, but they are really not being productive or efficient.
Often time these men have no clear plan on how to get both quantity and quality of women, so they go blindly about it.
That just means you have money and some status, a small portion of SMV.
Yes. I’m not ugly, I get high scores on photofeeler. I mean, my main issue in dating life is (a) being short and (b) being non-white.
yet when these specimens try to get with these attractive chicks they do all kinds of outcome dependent things. One of my buddies is like this.
dude, game is great but it doesn’t work miracles. at the bar the other night, I wasn’t outcome dependent at all. I had a good time regardless of how she acted, I tried talking about sex, I tried kino — didn’t work, so whatever. I didn’t text her after the date, because I don’t really want another one and I doubt she does either.
the other chick who seemed interested but seemed to ignore me asking to hang out, I just deleted the number and contact and put it out of my mind. if i see her around in that social setting again, ill keep it formal but i won’t invest any time into her.
i -am- outcome independent for the most part. you can always be better, sure. i’m not intimidated by them…when i do get with a hot chick i treat her the same as anyone else (i’m not after a monogamous relationship, just looking for steady sex). and it’s this experience that has actually caused me to see things more clearly.
BD is right that you just have to put in the numbers and eventually you’ll snag some bodacious fruit.
But this stance of ‘never approaching women you aren’t attracted to’ just misses the mark IMO.
The other part of you thinks that that level of SMV is too low and creates delusion of much higher self perceived SMV.
Um, no. I understand that the two dings I have against me are huge strikes against SMV, which is why my PRIMARY POINT has been one must LOWER their standards in this situation or face long dry spells. The whole idea is ‘oh just go for girls you think are attractive.’
Well, the girls I like are objectively really attractive, which means that they have a ton of options, which means…well I’ve already said it.
The result is net waste of energy, time and resources. Your personal integrity takes a hit every time this happens. Also you don’t really have a coherent strategy. All because of keeping that illusions to boost your confidence.
It’s a waste of time energy and resources to pursue women you find attractive? Hmkay. My personal integrity isn’t taking a hit at all — I understand the situation well. The strategy is this: pursue attractive women, bang whoever will have me in the meantime until I can snag an attractive one to bang for awhile.
This article, however, asks ‘WHY EVEN BOTHER WITH WOMEN YOU AREN’T EVEN ATTRACTED TO?’ and my whole point is ‘this is why.’
Often time these men have no clear plan on how to get both quantity and quality of women, so they go blindly about it.
I actually think it’s different. most dudes think that any given interaction is way more under their control than it is. before we even get to stuff like being short or non-white, like, there are a bajillion things that can go wrong or set her off the ‘getting with you’ path that have almost nothing to do with you.
the clear plan is the same as it always has been: talk to women, look as good as you can, have a plan to escalate to sex. once it’s clear a woman isn’t interested, drop her and don’t look back.
Maybe you’re a dude who can say ‘well I’d rather not have sex for a year than bang one chick that passes the boner test but who isn’t attractive.’ Good for you. For YOU banging unattractive chicks when given that option is a waste of time. for the rest of us who have a NEED for REGULAR sex…it really just isn’t an option.
Also, I know the article says ‘don’t find attractive enough TO HAVE SEX WITH,’ but lmfao. Guys can fuck most anything…like unless she’s REPULSIVE. They WON’T TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT, but lol, the standard for ‘can you have sex with it,’ vs ‘will you like having sex with it’ or ‘will you be proud of having had sex with it,’ is way different.
How to behave during a date. I mean how exactly. Ive read lots of stuff on it and its still not clear to me how to do sex talk in the right way. I guess im the type who does not learn by reading but by doing. I guess some set up dates with a coach secretly watching and then telling me what I did bad would work better for me.
This stuff about bringing back women to my life I fucked in the past after 4-6 months. I read the article(s) on it and its still not clear to me how to exactly do it in the right way.
I get with women all the time that I find very sexually attractive and then start getting turned off once I see them during the day and with really good lighting. Add in by this point (when they stay over the first time) I’ve already fucked them stupid so I kind of am ready to move on. Anyways, here a few of my reasons I get caught up in this.
1. Dates at night with poor lighting – This happens more to me in the winter. In the winter I avoid this if I get a bad feeling about their photos and change it to a day date
2. Alcohol – I like to drink a few. Makes them prettier
3. Get caught in the moment of seducing (Love watching a woman squirm in her chair because she’s wet already, makes her more attractive) the woman to sex. Thrill of the hunt
4. Age. Older women learn to hide their flaws better. Men are going for older women now. I fuck older women. Many treat your dick like they found all five infinity stones once you make them cum.
This was also a problem for me. It was unclear how to segue to the topic. Only on rare occasions when it felt super natural did I do it. Then I thought “fuck it”, and made myself attempt sex talk during every first date. Quite quickly, after three first dates or so, it became quite natural. I think some kind of mental block was lifted and I became able to talk about sex like I would about anything else, which is the way it should be. Sorry that I have no better advice than “just do it”.
That’s if you are first starting out. If you get ahold of it this is no problem at all. The difficult part is the beginning. So you actually just said you didn’t even get through the initial part of this. So if you are just starting out I Would suggest to put in the work needed to get the first two 7s+. If it takes time, it takes time. It’s far better than going for the uglies.
I’m 5’7 so that’s just an excuse.
It’s not about SMV but what attracts you and makes you happy. Do you build confidence by banging uglies? NO. Does that make you happy? NO. So aim for what you like.
I disagree. You will never build confidence like that as you will keep on having this mentality. Uglies don’t boost your confidence, they make it worse(unless you are a virgin). Also if you don’t go for the difficult things you will never learn the hard way. You are just staying in your comfort zone.
If someone is inexperienced and insecure he needs to put a lot of work on himself first, his frame, hitting the gym or doing sports that build confidence. Not by hitting uglies. It’s not just the numbers it’s the quality you attract and you are attracted to in your life.
@ETA: Spot on.
What do you think of Good Looking Loser’s “Lower Your Standards” idea? https://www.goodlookingloser.com/laid/picking-up-women/how-to-lower-your-standards-and-keep-your-dignity-and-boner
Like I mentioned, it is not good to have sex with ugly chicks forever. But I will still argue that if you have confidence issues then getting with uglies will improve it. It will give you a reference experience that it is possible to succeed with the opposite sex. And most men need this especially if they are sexless omegas (I consider any man who has had sex less than three times before 25 omega). The problem is like you said, doing this can tempt you into staying in that comfort zone.
Its kind of like playing golf at a really easy course where you can shoot 7 or 8 under par really easy, but then refuse to go to a different course because you are afraid you might stink it up and shoot 7 or 8 over par. Or just squatting 135 and never going up past that. So I get it. The temptation to aim low and STAY there is pretty strong. But its just a temptation and not automatic like you would believe. And anyone who wants to be an Alpha 2 should be mastering the art of resisting temptation, yes?
Why not just do both at the same time? Or improve on everything at all times? During my omega male phase, I did the first thing, but realized that my SMV sucked because I was inexperienced so I went after chicks who also had really bad SMV. Within a year my confidence with the opposite sex improved. If I had just done one or the other it would have taken longer. If you want to improve, you’ve gotta do it on all angles.
Again, you are making the mistake of downplaying SMV. SMV is everything, and everything is SMV. What many do not understand is that the whole reason ANYONE wants to be successful (in anything, really) is because they know that if they are successful, they will be more attractive to the opposite sex. It all goes back to that whether we like it or not. That is what is in the back of everyone’s mind that no one wants to admit ever. And paradoxically, if SMV is the only thing you care about, then it lowers SMV to almost zero and people will notice that.
This is why outcome independence is so, SO important. Because if you are aware that you are thinking about improving SMV all the time but do not emotionally invest too much in certain outcomes with the opposite sex it makes you massively attractive on the front that you are aware that life is about improving SMV but the improvements you take are not completely SMV centered.
Did it improve with 8s+? Can you go out tomorrow and get 2 8s+ within a month(or even 2) and lock them in? If you can do that then I guess you make a point. If not you are proving my point.
I highly disagree. And I know this for a fact in my own life. Not to mention you see that all around you. Unsuccessful losers getting beautiful women left and right..It’s not SMV, it’s FRAME.
I’m currently having this problem and this seems to be the reason:
I got a couple of 8s in my scale which got my standards way too high. These were white, natural blonde blue-eyed girls, a type that is uncommon in my city.
Now when I run my nightgame I get frustrated because I see a lot of 4, 5, 6, some 7 and few 8 which are usually with their bfs. So I roam the place, go for the 7s not because I find them particularly attractive, but because I got to the place already and I don’t want to waste my time. I always push for a ONS and don’t bother with dates.
These women are ok and I’d be fine having sex with them, but I just can’t bring myself to take time out of my work to chase these girls that, in my eyes, aren’t worth it.
tl;dr: these guys got some cute women, raised their standards way too high and now can’t downgrade.
Beautiful women who are on drugs, addicted to drama, use men for personal gain…doesn’t seem too attractive to me. Just because a chick has a good appearance doesn’t mean she can’t be a degenerate hoodrat. I’ve met TONS of them at my previous job.
Is frame not a part of SMV? Does having a good frame not improve SMV? Prove to me that Frame is not part of SMV.
I said losers without SMV get beautiful women left and right, including many submissives with normal life. I didn’t talk about what you find attractive in women.
I think this here is your excuse to not get out of your comfort zone. There are tons of beautiful women who are normal.
The point is – looks first: If you find looks attractive, then you move to the next phase(and then you can bring your above excuse), if not you skip it entirely. There is no fucking point to lose time in women you don’t find attractive(unless you are a virgin or somewhere there or you are lazy and want to play it safe).
So if I’m broke, live with my parents, have shitty car but have very strong frame with women is this high SMV? Or do you think a person like that cannot get beautiful women with very high SMV?
Of course they can. But they gotta put in more effort than someone who lives on his own and has a cool car.
I’m sure there are. And its not that I can’t get with them, I know I can. I also know that in order to do so, I would need to triple my commitment. And I do not see that as a proper use of my time and energy when I can just get with meh looking chicks much easier.
At no point did I ever even consider believing that it is *impossible* to get with decent looking chicks if your SMV sucks. But it IS more difficult to get with them. Just like it will be more difficult for someone out of high school to get a high paying job than a 25 year old who has lots of experience. The PUAtards are wrong (and they KNOW they are wrong) when they say that you can’t just “game” your way out of having low SMV.
I’ll go one further and argue that this very nadir is what caused the #metoo movement; too many low SMV guys aiming WAY too high (we’re talking creepy, awkward, 25+ year old virgins thinking that they can get any chick they want just by spam approaching) and not doing things the right way (having sex with unconscious, drunk chicks and calling it a “lay,” which BD himself attacked in one of his posts).
However, I feel like I am repeating myself at this point when I state that I think a lot of guys (myself included) sell themselves short on judging their own SMV. For the longest time I considered myself “damaged goods” who doesn’t deserve even average chicks. So I stuck with very unattractive chicks. Then after gaining some experience and confidence, I proved that I could get with average chicks. Now I need to prove that I can get with above average chicks. Its a progression. It doesn’t just happen overnight…that’s what the PUAs push. And they know its wrong. So while you say that it is a “waste of time” getting at chicks who you do not find attractive, I say that it is just a means of progression, at least for anyone who is not a natural at chicks.
Hope this explains things.
I get what you want to say but i still don’t think it works the way you say.
About SMV the guy with the cars and the money etc will get a chick easier but if he doesn’t have frame everything will blow in his face quickly. That’s what happens with most men.
That’s why I said frame is much more important than SMV because with frame alone(and some decent looks of course) you can get beautiful women and keep them without drama. If you show them that you are “broke” with EFA and still get them that’s the power. Not perceived SMV. I prefer putting some work in the beginning get some beautiful women and have dramaless relationships than showing money around to get easy drama full relationships. So no SMV is not everything..unless you have everything including strong frame which is the peak. But since I know most men don’t have frame with women this is a huge advantage for any man that has strong frame.
I am not sure I understand the concept of frame very well. Can someone explain in detail? Thanks.
Frame is part of SMV. I do agree with you that it is one of the biggest components of SMV, with social status being the other very important component. Good looking guys with a good frame will be seen by chicks as high value anyways, which is why “DHV” statements/stories etc that PUAs preach backfire hard. Its not coming from a natural place.
Disagree. This is a 15+ year old lie told by PUAs. You can’t just “game” your way to healthy relationships with good looking chicks, not in the long term at least. This is especially dangerous in this culture, where women are told that seeing men as human ATMs is “empowering.” If you don’t “treat a chick right” after having sex with her, you’ll get #metoo’d (which is also “empowering”). I’m pretty sure BD has written an article about this as well. This is why you have individuals like myself who are cool with just dating around forever and why guys like BD defend open relationships to the grave.
A good frame requires a foundation of sorts and that’s where LMS (Looks, Money, Status) come in. While it is true that you can “fake” this kind of stuff and act like you have a good frame and get chicks in the short term, this will not work if you are pursuing a relationship. Especially a monogamous one, a guy can only play the charade for so long.
When did I even consider doing the latter? Like JOTB, trading romantic favors for money goes against my principles, although it doesn’t trigger me as much as it does him. Here’s what I meant:
Right now I have a 6 in progress of being locked in: She has a meh body, late 30s, two kids, lives with her folks. Went out twice, kissed, cuddled, and fooled around on the 2nd date; we will likely have sex on the third (very common for a 33+ who isn’t crazy horny; I’ve discovered that 33+s either are down out of the gate or on the third date). I had to invite 9 chicks places this month (across probably 20 or so approaches) to do this. It was pretty much effortless; just go out with the boys, find a meh looking chick, invite said meh looking chick, and I’m in. Easy.
If I wanted 8+s, I would no doubt have to triple my commitment: I would need to go to places where more attractive chicks are found (the little dive bars I go to with my boys isn’t gonna do this), I would need to make MASSIVE changes to my online dating profiles, and would need to approach and invite WAY more chicks, as well as refusing to get with the meh ones. Also, I don’t really know if the more attractive chicks are in my target market or not. I know the meh ones are because we enjoy each others’ company. So to me, its not worth my time…at the moment.
Frame is pretty much how a man acts towards a chick who he is attracted to. As per BD’s descriptions (with one of mine thrown in), it goes like this (going from most common to least common)
Beta = Submissive, Not confident, outcome dependent
Omega = Submissive, Not confident, outcome independent (what I call the “nihilist” frame; I used to be a pretty major omega lol)
Loud beta/needy alpha/Alpha 1 = Dominant, Confident, outcome dependent
Alpha 2/Sigma = Either dominant or submissive depending on the circumstance, Confident, outcome independent
Clear, but you got the omega part wrong. Omega is NOT submissive per definition. Omega is rejective, i.e. the lone wolf. What you describe is BetaOmega mixture. The classical idea is alpha – beta – omega = dominant – sumbissive – rejective, which is an analogy to pack mentality animals. Of course with humans its usually more complex so its oversimplification but some basic ideas still work. Most people are mixture of 2 more of those.
The two of you are talking about different concepts that happen to have the same name in different circles. In a certain vocabulary, an Omega, rather than a lone wolf, is just some kind of sub-beta male. You’re not disagreeing, you’re just not using the same vocab.
The standard 3 – type personality model is alpha, beta omega where omega is the lone wolf.
If you use the expanded type then those include the sub betas, thats usually gamma. There is also delta which I forgot what it is and sigma which a master manipulator.
Ive heard of omega being used in the way you describe before but its definitelly not standard, nor is it common (ammongst people who know what they are talking about). I am saying this as someone who read a lot of on this topic from difference sources because there was a point in the past where I was really interested in it, mainly as I saw that if I can identify what type a person is I can adjust my behaviour and what to say to get what I want. For example with a beta you can try to intimidate or show leadership. With an alpha you have to make him think it was his idea. With omega you have to convince him there is something for him in it and thats it is in his interest to do that.
You are coming from a blue piller perspective. We are not talking about mono relationships here and I’m not talking about PUAs who eventually lose the plot and start getting oneitis because they don’t know what they are doing in the first place when it comes to the big picture.
It’s coming from a natural place if you know yourself and the big picture well. In the beginning it will need effort sure and “fake it till you make it” but then it becomes effortless and you are not questioning yourself one bit. You are not playing games, it becomes you.
Again for me its not a component of SMV. You might be a loser in terms of money and social status but get beautiful women and keep them without drama if you know what you are doing and have strong frame. Of course SMV helps greatly so if you have both you are at the peak. But if you have SMV and you don’t have frame you are far worse off in terms of relationship management.
You are talking like a true blue piller here and I don’t know where this “I’m scared of beautiful women” is coming from. You can believe that if you want to excuse yourself. Women see you as an ATM if you act like an ATM.
Yes you are right. You have to. If you want meh though and you are really happy with it, it’s your life. If you want drastic changes and happiness you have to go through some tough time to get there. So not getting out of your comfort zone isn’t going to cut it…ever. Also remember 7s are not meh so you can start with 7s.
Give me few examples.
ah, I finally remembered and found this article. It wasn’t showing up in my e-mail box search.
Ok, so yeah…online dating is agreeably a bit tricky.
I went on a date with a girl who passed as a 6-7 in my book back in 2015. She shows up, she looks the same as her photos. But the date goes very badly. I spend the next hour or so listening to her work drama. We end up friending each other on facebook, and I figure that is that. We text each other now and again about Game of Thrones and other nerdy things but we don’t go on any dates but that first.
I’m looking through my texts and it looks like…oh my goodness…I reached out to her last August to go hiking. I don’t recall their being any romantic context for this though. Anyhow, she still looks decent, and we enjoy each other’s company.
We don’t hang out again until the fall. I’m upfront with her that I still have alot of things to sort through (mostly a job I dislike that I can’t seem to escape b/c I have enough deadlines to keep from from looking for the next job and also just lazy enough not to want to give up what little free time I have to go look for one) and I can’t really be in a relationship right after she presses me for “I don’t think you like me.”
Fast-forward to more recently though.
We’re good friends, but my life is still a mess professionally, and I notice that the superficial part of me can’t help but notice that’s she’s dropped down to a 5-6. Her hair almost seems to be thinning to the point of early baldness. Her manner of dress has been consistently frumpy, which I assume to be the fact that we’re friends, and she feels like she can dress like a slob, which is fine, b/c I too, look like a slob. Two slobby friends hanging out.
Anyhow, she drops me a text the other day asking me “…so am I going to get to see you again before your family vacation?” and suddenly I feel a pang of remorse. She wants to be more than friends, and I’m not sure I want that, at least if not in an open context.
Long story short…it’s entirely possible to hit on someone who’s decent-to-good rating can plummet over a relatively short period of time.
I always make sure I use the photos from when I was a overweight.
I would say part of the reason I would go out with a guy i wasnt attracted to is lack of experience. There is basically three categories: yes , no , maybe. When I was younger I would go out with guys I was “so so” and “ify” about only later to be not into the person. As I have gotten older the “maybe” category has become nonexistent.