There has always been a huge amount of confusion regarding getting a woman’s phone number during online dating. I always assumed that this confusion would eventually clear itself up, as men learned the difference between real-life game and online dating.
Alas, I was wrong. The confusion persists. In some ways, it’s actually become worse due to the increased number of methods one can use to communicate. Today I’ll do my best to clear all of this up.
The Classic Problem
The “classic” phone number problem with online dating was when guys would attempt to ask a girl for her phone number during a conversation with her over the dating site or app. Sometimes this works, but more often than not it results in a woman ghosting or throwing up a bunch of ASD shields.
In The Ultimate Online Dating Manual I talk about exactly why this happens. For various reasons, some rational and some not, when you’re a woman, giving out your phone number to some random stranger on the internet is actually more threatening and scary than actually scheduling a date with the guy, flirting with a guy, or even doing a little dirty sex talk with a guy.
We could have a long discussion about the reasoning behind this behavior, whether or not it makes any sense, and so on. But as always, instead of having a long, detailed, and ultimately irrelevant psychological/philosophical nerd discussion about why women do certain things, I’d rather just acknowledge that women behave in certain ways in the real world and discuss what you need to do when these things happen so you can get from zero to sex as quickly as possible.
The reasons so many men ask for women’s phone numbers online usually fall into two categories:
1. They’re inexperienced betas and don’t know any other way of closing the deal.
2. They’re experienced Alpha Males or even PUAs with a lot of daygame or night game experience who have been trained that getting the “number close” is of paramount importance. Which it is when you’re doing real-life cold approach.
But as these very guys like to often scream about, online dating isn’t real-life cold approach. Some of the rules are different. Not all, but some.
One of these rules is that generally speaking (and of course there are always exceptions to the rule, and these exceptions prove the rule), you will get better statistical results from online dating if you actually pitch and schedule the first meet before you exchange phone numbers or other contact information.
I know that sounds counter-intuitive, especially if you’re coming from the two-step daygame or night game worlds, but remember we’re talking about women here. If you want women to make logical sense all the time then you’re in for a very rough life.
I have been on literally hundreds of first dates via online dating over the last 12 years. (I actually pulled up the spreadsheet tracking for that to get the raw data for this article. God damn, I’ve been on a lot of first dates!) The only time I got these dates by getting a woman’s phone number first and then figuring out the date is less than 3%. That means the other 97% of these dates I got by at least agreeing to a first date/meet to some degree and then getting the phone number (or other means of communication; more on this in a minute).
So that’s lesson number one. Stop asking for women’s phone numbers online until and unless you have gained at least some agreement from her that yes, she is indeed going to get in some kind of vehicle and travel somewhere to meet you in real life. Then you can exchange phone numbers.
The best way to do this is to offer your phone number first. I never ask for a woman’s phone number online. Again, too threatening. Instead, once I get some kind of agreement to the date pitch, I say something like this:
“Cool! You can text me if that’s easier. Or I can text you. xxx.xxx.xxxx”
Do I have times where this doesn’t work and women instantly vanish? Sure. It happens all the time. But statistically, your results will be orders of magnitude better than just asking for a girl’s number without any discussion of meeting up in real life.
Alternate Forms Of Contact
The next problem is that there are now a bazillion different ways you can contact a woman. This was very different than 10-12 years ago when it was simply a matter of phone numbers and maybe some kind of IM software like Yahoo Messenger.
Today, women communicate on apps like:
- Snapchat
- Kik
- Facebook Messenger
- Facetime
- And so on
Some of you guys need to understand that phone numbers aren’t necessary anymore. Moreover, many women prefer to communicate on these other apps instead of normal texting to a phone number. A few recent examples:
1. Twice now I’ve had women on Bumble instantly ghost me as soon as I said I didn’t have Facetime. (I use an Android phone.)
2. A while back on a sugar daddy site, I met up with and had sex with a much younger Type 2 woman (a very cute blonde; my favorite kind) without paying her anything. She was interested in older guys and had plenty of other older guys message her. Yet, I was the only guy she met up with. When I asked her why, her answer was telling. She said, “None of these older guys have Snapchat. You were the only one who did.”
Indeed, when I got an agreement that she was interested in meeting me, I offered her both my phone number and my Snapchat ID. No other guy had ever done that. She even laughed when she said one guy told her she should “email him.”
3. I had a similar scenario on a different dating site/app (I don’t remember which) when the girl, who had just moved here from South America, said she met up with me because I was the only American guy she had talked to (so far) who actually used Whatsapp.
So, based on all the above (and many other examples I could tell you from guys who email me), you could and perhaps should modify the statement I used above to something like this:
“Cool! You can text me if that’s easier. Or I can text you. xxx.xxx.xxxx. I’m also on Snapchat if you prefer that. My ID is xxxxxxx.”
Often, she’ll respond with, “My snap is xxxxx.” Boom, hit her up on Snapchat and you’re off to the races.
Obviously, this means you need to be on these apps and somewhat familiar with them. Some of you older bastards in my age group have a problem with this. I keep running into guys over age 35 who want to date younger women but barely know what Snapchat is, much less actually have the app on their phones and know how to use the damn thing.
You should consider Snapchat and Whatsapp as bare minimums, plus perhaps two or three others that are popular in your area. Get these apps, set up accounts, and learn how to use them, regardless of how dumb, immature, redundant, or frivolous you think these apps are (which, to a great degree, they are). As always, I don’t care what you think; you need to do what needs to be done in order to be effective. Or go home and jerk off to porn.
What about social media? What happens if a woman tells you to add her on Facebook or Instagram? Should you do it?
In my experience, this is the online equivalent of a woman asking you to “come see her at work!” for the first date/meet because she’s a stripper. In other words, she’s interested in your attention rather than your cock.
I’m not saying there aren’t ways to get laid using social media. There certainly are. (I talk about some of them in The Ultimate Online Dating Manual, and perhaps that would be a good topic for a future article here. Instagram in particular, is becoming a gold mine for some guys.) I’m saying that if you attempt to contact close a woman online and the only thing she throws at you is her Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter page where she can add you to the other 4,000 drooling, hungry beta males who will never have sex with her, you’re better off moving on to other women.
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What’s wrong with things like Facebook or Instagram as long as direct messaging of some kind is part of the deal? Why can’t one just advance the process as usual, pitch the date and see what happens?
I’ve had couple of girls ghost me from tinder because I didn’t have IG or Snapchat but for now, in country I live in, those aren’t too important. I rather get ghosted couple of times than use my time (several hours) over the next following months/years to keep my IG profile pimped up in a way it increases my perceived value. I’d say average guys IG with boring average quality pictures just reduces your value and fucks up your chances.
Having no IG/Snapchat is better than having a bad/average IG-profile/snapchat-videos.
I agree. I never ask for a woman’s number. I always give them mine. Having said that it can go both ways for me as far as when to exchange numbers. I play it by ear and treat it as more of an art than a science.
I will say I have good luck with women under 25, short term, once we have exchanged numbers. They can be very harassing in regards to a meet if you don’t act fast enough. But I have learned to get their snapchat. Many younger women can’t keep their phone service turned on and use burner phones so unless they contact you when they get their new number your SOL if they disappear off the dating app. So I always get their snapcat now. Older women don’t have this problem.
I’ve had sometimes two dates and sex and more all just using Bumble or Tinder chat. You don’t really need a phone #, and some women like the safety of not having to give a stranger any way of finding them, especially if they have had stalker experiences in the past. I’ve come to like it too, since I live in a small town, am part of a small and pretty gossipy industry and have also had stalker problems.
Your request will go unnoticed beneath the pile of other messages she’s getting on those media.
Yup. That.
No. Facebook and Instagram are not dating sites. Social media game is a longer, slower-burn process.
If you’re going to use any social media as a direct method to get laid, then yes, all your photos need to look pretty good.
I disagree about Snapchat though; I have zero photos and zero videos on my Snapchat and I’ve used it to get laid quite a bit without any problems. Instagram, then yes, I agree with you.
SNAPCHAT (and instagram)
I rarely ask for their number before closing a date. Usually I get the snapchat first, we send some pics to each other + they watch my (cool/interesting/DHV) stories during the next few days, maybe or maybe not I give her my instagram (if she asks for it), then I seal the deal (a date) and only then ask for their number (under the guise of ‘logistics’). It’s realllyyy fucking easy. Asking for snapchat instead of their number first is probably the most ‘effective’ technique I’ve come across as of yet. Almost doubled my results using snapchat and instagram to my advantage. (I’m fairly handsome and muscular so snapchat/instagram is definitely a game multiplier, probably wouldn’t work that well for less visually attractive guys though I must add)
Also, I must add I’m only 22. I have no clue if 30+ women use snapchat or instagram, so I’m clueless regarding that bracket. All female 18-25 year olds do though, pretty much without exception. I think though that when you’re an older guy have a great lifestyle it’s definitely a + to get instagram and occasionally post a DHV picture on there.
Btw, regarding instagram at first (and still occasionally) I bought followers and likes since I give 0 fucks and use everything that’s more or less moral and highly effective. I made sure to never buy insane amounts so nobody would notice, I never heard anything from anyone. Cost me in total 10 bucks this past year; money well spent, even if it improves my chances at getting laid by a only few percent.
I really despise social media though, it’s one big circle jerk of validation seeking behavior, most people on it are retards and use it like retards. The only reason I use it is because I know it can be used as a tool (force multiplier) when used correctly. I don’t bother watching the content of other people, complete waste of time. Put as little time into it as possible while extracting maximum value. Done
I mean what’s the problem if instead of the phone number the girl from the dating site adds you on Facebook? You can now use that to coordinate any further activity, even in the absence of a phone number.
Facebook is a godsend. You can see right away if she’s fat and ugly. Facebook messenger is as good as any other messenger. If she doesn’t have a messenger installed as a separate app then, yeah, fuck it.
In my experiences, we need to get her contact details ASAP. I had created a female account i can easily get at least 20-30 male matches, and at anytime if your profile isn’t interesting enough. You’ll be DISAPPEARED within her sight! Most guys are boring and she can easily get pissed off and not on the apps anymore.
Also, if you’ve good pics (ie photos with other females), you shouldn’t have hard time getting their digits.
Hi BD, I am new to your blog but like what I read so far.
Recently I was approached by this chick I know at school but not very well acquainted with her, who offered to have sex. I made no previous attempts to fuck her nor have I gamed her. She simply approached with offer. She has a track record of fucking over other guys in the past. Should I be concerned or use this chance to gain early reference experience. We are both 18.
Thank you in advance for your reply.
I addressed that in the article. If she wants to add you on Facebook but refuses any other sort of contact, she’s not interested in meeting up in real life.
Yeah, give that a try and watch what happens.
You’re using Guy Logic and we’re talking about girls.
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/theres-one-girl/
When I do a blitz, I send a first message to thousands of profiles and within a few days I receive hundreds of answers. I very quickly get tons of new contacts, I use mostly Viber, whatsapp and local mobile number which are all telephone number identified so it integrates well with google contacts and allows to use priority mode on android. I prefer Viber because I kinda developed my personal game with the stickers and I feel women find it cute and respond more positively to it, which I think, reduces first date flakes. Moreover if a user changes her number it’s often notified, so I can keep girls number up to date, very handy when I am out of town for months at a time. I also like that I can hide my “online” and “read” statuses.
Viber is quite popular in certain countries such as Philippines. But In certain countries (including some in South East Asia such as Thailand) women only want to use LINE. This app sucks for many reasons, I hate the stickers which are weird and ugly for me, and most importantly it’s based on a specific Line ID, which cannot even be retrieved once already “added as friend”. Meaning if she added you, you can’t even know what’s her LINE ID. Also it doesn’t integrate well with google contacts and is not compatible with priority mode in android If anyone has a good workaround to LINE that these girls will actually use, I’d like to know…
You have solid points in this article. I am a girl and I would forever prefer guys who I can chat with via snapchat/whatsapp.
Jesus! How did you read my mind?!? My method isn’t exactly the same, but it weeds out fakes and flakes while providing plenty of inventory.
1st message: “Coffee ☕️ Cocktails 🍸 or chocolate?🍫 Regards, Duke xxx-xxx-xxxx Snap, WhatsApp
2nd message: 👆(pointing at the above message if she replies on dating app instead of following contact instructions)
This constitutes the entirety of what I write on a dating app.
Wow!
Spot on analysis.
My method isn’t exactly the same, but it weeds out fakes and flakes while providing plenty of inventory.
1st message on dating app: “Coffee ☕️ Cocktails 🍸 or chocolate?🍫 Regards, Duke xxx-xxx-xxxx Snap, WhatsApp” <<< public, safe and light. Suggests serious interest without coming across as creepy.
Critical when target age range is 18-32. A lot more important at 59 than at 19.
2nd message on app (if needed): 👆(pointing at the above message if she replies on dating app instead of following contact instructions)
This constitutes the entirety of what I write on a dating app. And it works so well the VA had to be moved to another project.
Bumble: There is no way I would pay to “extend” on the Sexist Bumble App (SBA). Paying SBA for ghosting seems like a terrible, low to almost no ROI investment. Do you, and if so, why?
BD is Whatapp not the same as getting a women number ? You need the number in order to chat on Whatapp