As most of you know, I teach a very specific, step-by-step system for getting a woman from meet to sex within 3-4 hours of face time with less than $27 spent. I lay out this entire system in this book. The quick summary is a real-life first date at a nice bar or coffee shop for one hour followed by a second “date” at your place where you proceed to sex. Here’s the graphic overview:
There are a list of specific things you must do and not do on the first and second dates in order to make this system work. Again, this book lays it all out. I also summarize some of the rules for the first date here. Today I’m going to address the questions I get from guys regarding when to break these rules, those rare and isolated times where it makes sense to deviate from this system.
Understand this: These are RARE and ISOLATED events. These are things that don’t happen very often, perhaps even never. The scenarios I’m about to describe are not an excuse for you to deviate from the system every time you feel like it. If you do that, you’ll get laid less, not more. Also, since they are rare events, if you encounter these scenarios repeatedly with multiple women, you are probably doing something wrong and need to do a self-evaluation.
With that being said, here are some of these questions I get, with their answers:
1. Is there ever a time to let the first date go past 60 minutes?
It’s fine to let the first date go a little past 60 minutes. Sometimes guys freak out and tell me that they “really fucked up” by letting the date go 70 or 80 minutes. Don’t worry about that. It’s fine provided you did everything else correctly.
If you’re asking if it’s ever okay to let the first date go two or three hours or more, the answer is no. This is too much provider game and it will likely spike her ASD and press down on her Make Him Wait button, which you do not want. Always remember you want the 85% player, 15% provider frame on all first and second dates for maximum odds of success across the broad spectrum of women.
Are there rare exceptions to this? Are there some women who will have sex with you very fast if you have a much longer first date? Well, that question answers itself. If you’re spending more time on a first date then you aren’t getting laid faster. Over the years I’ve had guys tell me they do very well with getting laid on first dates but they normally have to spend 4-6 hours on the first date in order to do it. Okay, but I’m getting to sex within 3 hours or less using a very fast first date, so I think I win.
Even factoring that in, you have no idea if she’s one of these exceptions beforehand. That means if you break the 60 minute rule because you’re guessing she might be an exception, you’re operating completely in the dark while the odds are not in your favor. Not smart.
2. What if you don’t get to sex on the second date when she’s at your place? Is it worth going after a third date or should you just move on?
It depends on exactly what happened during the second date.
If the second date wasn’t at your home, then yes, proceed to the third date (hopefully at your home).
If the second date was at your home, you did your best to get to sex, and you got sexual with her but not all the way to full-on sex, then yes, proceed to the third date (hopefully at your home).
If the second date was at your home, she’s under the age of 33, you did your best to get to sex, and you got absolutely nothing (other than maybe some kissing), then no, forget the third date and move on. This is a high-ASD woman and fast sex is not something she’s interested in at this time. Stop wasting your time with her and move on to more relaxed women.
If the second date was at your home, she’s over the age of 33, you did your best to get to sex, and you got absolutely nothing (other than maybe some kissing), then unfortunately, this is normal for women over 33. You have a decision to make: move on or suffer through another high-ASD third and perhaps even fourth date before you get all the way to sex. I personally would move on, but that’s me.
3. Is there ever a time you should not go for sex on the second date?
Only if the date doesn’t occur at your home. If your second date is at another bar (or similar location), which is allowed under this system, then you don’t need to push for sex on this date (although you can and I often do).
If the second date occurs at your home, then no, you should always push for sex as best you can 100% of the time while she’s there. If you don’t, and just sit there and talk without sexually escalating while you’re both alone on your bed or couch, you’ll actually send conflicting signals and likely turn her off.
4. What if she orders food on the first date?
You should not order food on a first date, but if she does, let her. This is rare, since women don’t want to “look like a pig” on a first date with a new guy, but some more confident women will do this if they’re really hungry. Let her order a cheese plate or some other bar item (remember, you’re at a bar or coffee shop on a first date, not a restaurant!) but don’t order anything yourself and eat a little of her food. Often this can actually boost results since she feels more “comfortable” with you.
5. Is there ever a time you should agree to an “event date” pre-sex?
No! No, no, no, NO! All first dates must be you and her in a quiet location sitting and talking to each together (bar, Starbucks, fancy deli, etc). No playing pool, no karaoke, no rock climbing, no hiking, no movies, none of that friend zone / boyfriend bullshit. Wait until you’ve had sex with her twice before you do that crap. Read this for more details if you want to know why.
6. Is there ever a time you should go past three dates with zero sexual activity?
No. Regardless of what women or beta males may say about this, the fact is that the world is full of too many hot, high-quality, low-ASD women who won’t make you wait that long for something as basic as sex. If something as normal and mundane as sex is this big of a deal to her, it is very unlikely she’ll make for a great FB, MLTR, or OLTR. (The only way you could come up with some kind of exception to this is if you’re talking about some kind of A-list celebrity you want to have sex with just for the bragging rights; that’s how crazy it’d have to get for me to turn this no into a yes.) Just don’t do it.
Some guys will justify putting up with zero sex past the third date if the woman does something like give them blowjobs. Again, this is stupid. There are hundreds of thousands of other women in your city… why the fuck are you putting up with Just Blowjob Girl? Do you think I would ever do this? No. You’re needy and you probably have oneitis. Move the fuck on.
7. When should you go for sex on the first date instead of the second?
As I’ve explained on this blog and in my books many times, focusing on a 3-4 hour total face time 2-date system is far more time efficient than focusing 100% on always trying to bang women on the first date. (Two quick exceptions to this: night game if you have strong game and pay-for-it sugar daddy game if you have decent game.)
The ASD you’ll have to battle through on all of your first dates is just too time consuming. If she’s under the age of 33, you smash at least 80% of her ASD by escalating to sex on the second date instead of the first, and it doesn’t matter how long the first date was. Thus my system. It works very well.
All of that being said, there will indeed be exceptions to the rule where the woman will be ready (or even eager) to have sex with you right on that first date. In these unusual cases, there’s no reason to wait and you might as well pull the trigger right then and there. I’ve had many of these first dates and they’re wonderful. Just remember they are unusual and will not be the norm under this system.
How can you tell if she’s ready for sex on the first date? Obviously if she asks to go back to your place, say yes and do it. (Some guys actually say no.) This will be really rare though (though I’ve had it happen more than once!). More often you’ll just have to learn to read her. There’s no hard and fast, always-accurate system to use, but here are some strong clues:
- She’s complimenting your appearance, especially if she does it more than once. (Not complimenting you. Complimenting your appearance.) She keeps saying you’re hot or cute or good-looking and so on.
- Her body language is amazing throughout the entire date. She’s always leaning forward, giving you fantastic eye contact, smiling, nodding, and so on.
- She’s under the age of 23.
- She’s dressed unusually sexy. Boobs/cleavage hanging out, under-butt showing through her high shorts/skirt, etc. I know feminists and left-wing women will probably hate this, but yes, the empirical data I have (from my own tracking and from other men who have tracked this stuff) is that women dressed more sexually do indeed tend to have sex with men faster.
- She is constantly giving self-qualifying statements. For example, you say you like women with bigger boobs and she immediately points out that she has big boobs. Later you say you like women who are happy and she immediately starts talking about how happy she is all the time.
- She exudes lots of physical cues. She touches her hair a lot, licks her lips a lot, fidgets with her fingers a lot, and so on. Be careful though; sometimes this can indicate nervousness instead of horniness.
If a woman does at least two or three of the above items, you could pull the tiger on the first date if you really want to. Just say something like, “You want to go back to my place for a little bit?” If you’ve read her correctly, you’ll get a very enthusiastic yes, and you’ll probably be having sex with her within 10-15 minutes of arriving at your home. (Man. I love women like this. I wish there were more of them.)
If you read her incorrectly she’ll politely say no. Just say okay, drop the topic immediately, and change the subject. Don’t push it! This is the first date when ASD is highest. Save the escalation for the second date when it’s much lower.
8. What if she invites some of her girlfriends to the first or second date?
Don’t ever agree to this. My success ratio for women who invite a friend to the first or second date is zero, so I learned very quickly to avoid this. Bringing a friend to a first date is a defense mechanism for women to make sure they can avoid sex and possibly friend zone you more easily. I’d rather have no first date than a first date with a woman and one of her girlfriends.
Whenever a woman pitches this, very gently say, “That would be fun! But it would be nice to just talk to you. Let’s meet up, just you and me, and let’s hang out with your friend next time.” Your odds of success doing this are only about 25%, but again, no date is better than a friend zone-date with the woman and one of her damn girlfriends.
The only possible exception to all of this is sugar daddy game where you’re meeting up with two women with the stated intention of having sex with both of them. This may work if you have decent game (I’ve done it). However, even in these scenarios I’ve had men have report that some women do this on sugar daddy sites as a scam to get you to pay them for platonic first dates (which you should never do, of course).
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Item 7 is particularly interesting to me, I often have a hard time figuring out if I should try to have sex on the first date. I probably should have pulled the trigger a bit more often in the past 2 years. I used to have a lot more sex on the first date before, albeit possibly longer than 3 hours meet to sex.
Problem is even if it works, I fear that it kinda frames the interaction as “player” and “not busy/available”. I feel it can backfire compared to just having the 60 minutes first date, in the medium term of the relationship.
Oh, Had a girl asking me to take her sister with her on our first date. Put my foot down with that request, in a nice manner.
Most women who I tell this story will react with: ‘Is she nuts’?!
I’m trying to perfect and improve my dates with BD’s method. Beforehand my dates would last 2 to 3 hours. And while most of the time I had a nice evening (I know how to talk and listen to women) the ratio of succes wasn’t that impressive.
This changed after I drastically reduced the time spent on the first date.
Offtopic, hoping for a reply cuz didn’t get one in previous posts.
i just saw your video on insitagram about how you earn 500k usd an year. thats holy fucking shit amazing. that too location independent.
so do you think a guy under your long term guidance and coaching (as in maxxing out on all the paid blackdragon stuff) can build a location independent business earning 500k usd an year form a third world country? in like 4-5 years? if not then how?
i’m willing to put as much work as possible. 100 hours a week if needed.
I still kind of agree with you and I’ve tried your method but now when I’ve written a spread sheet I noticed that ~70% of my lays happen on the first date with under 2h of face time. (n count of 18 over the last 1,5 years I’ve been reading your stuff – included only girls from tinder I had sex) I only included tinder dates here because my main source of girls is NG which is a whole different beast. But I think the trick here is my sexually charged profile and txting. The girls come to my place and expect to be fucked. Other thing may be the fact that I live in Finland – girls feel and are safe here so it’s probably easier to have 1st dates in private appartment.
These days I suggest 1st dates in public only with girl of which I’m not sure if they are hot or not (body doesn’t show in pictures properly or excessive use of filters).
I’ve been also trying to test your theory about kissing on first dates over the last year but I haven’t been able to because pretty much every time when the girl agrees to kiss me, situations leads to sex (altho one factor is that I’m having the dates on my place which kind of makes the study circumstances questionable).
You have said similar before and this happened to me. I met a 22 y/o via online dating and met her at a bar. She failed to tell me her best friend works there, and the bar was dead so she was on the date with us basically. I thought about telling her that I don’t do friend dates and leaving, but I decided to see if I could pull it off. Her friend talked me up to her and then at some point they ditched me to go talk about me. The girl came back and wanted to go outside. She started making out with me. Logistically I was too far from home and wasn’t prepared for first date sex so I left her after an hour and met up with her at her house the next day. I slept with her and then we met up the next day and I slept with her again. Thought I achieved lock-in. She nexted me three days later by changing her Facebook status to “in a relationship” with another man. I sent her a message “You are in a new relationship?”. Message read, no response…
So while it sort of “worked” in a way, since I did get laid twice, (actually 2 times each night) it ultimately wasn’t very successful since it didn’t even last a week.
Had a first meet with a woman 9 years older than me, well over age 33, last night. Social Circle game. We first talked over a year ago talking about meeting up sometime. Since then I haven’t said much, she’s mentioned we should meet up a few times but I had enough fb’s already so I ignored it. She’s also the oldest woman I’ve ever been with. Well, this woman was way hornier than I could have ever imagined for mid 40’s. There was no question we were going to have sex, after like the first 30 minutes I was at her place, which is where she had suggested we meet. I have yet to run in to a woman over 33 with extremely high ASD where I live. I do think that’s a bit of the culture in the rural area I am at though.
Same.
I’ve had sex on the first date with 9 of the last 10 women over age 35 that I’ve gone after (since July). I just go right to “date 2” and invite them over or invite myself to their place. Easiest lays ever.
I’m 37 and these women were “friend of a friend” type social circle or from Facebook. (Friends on Facebook that I had never actually met before or facebook dating)
Over 33 having high ASD is one of the only things BD has said that I haven’t found to be true. Not sure why my experiences have been different.
@CCMidwest
He has talked about what your describing. To quote BD:
“If you’re a guy of any age and go after a woman over 33 already in your social circle, it short circuits much of her ASD because you’re not a “stranger” taking her out on a “date.” You’re a “friend” and, oops! I just fucked my friend! Tee-hee! It’s easier for her to justify.”
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/03/28/date-women-33-part-two-2/
A lot of your rules don’t really match my experience– and I say this as someone who’s bought most of your eBooks, was once an SMIC member, and has been on literally hundreds of first dates following your system when I was younger. When I began to start trusting my own intuition rather than following your system, my results suddenly skyrocketed.
For example, if a girl seems into me on the first date, yet I cut the first date short at 60 minutes, I’ll rarely get a second date. I’ve received countless “Ultimate IOIs” after a first date which never led to a second date. On the other hand, if she seems into me on the first date and I invite her back to my place, she usually starts undressing as soon as we get to my bedroom.
I think the key difference between me and Caleb is that Caleb has stated in the past that he has abnormally low empathy. This means he probably has a difficult time accurately assessing what women are thinking/feeling, whereas I can intuit it very naturally. I can tell within the first few minutes of meeting a woman whether or not we’re compatible just by the way she looks at me and talks to me.
More importantly, this also allows me to be extremely transparent with my thoughts and feelings. For example, once we’re talking about our dating experiences and past relationships on the first date, I always bring up the fact that I’m not looking for any kind of commitment because I want to make sure that I’m not leading her on and that we’re on the same page. By doing this, I don’t have to spend the next 3-6 months leading her on by dodging her questions and dropping subtle, ambiguous clues that I’m seeing other women, only to result in her feelings getting hurt because I wasn’t being upfront with her to begin with.
One of my FBs told me something along the lines of, “As a woman, it’s not hard to find dick. But it can be hard to find good dick. And it’s extremely hard to find good dick attached to a good person. Thanks for being so honest with me from the start, I really appreciate it.” Numerous other women have told me similar things, in their own way. Experiences like that have led me to believe that when a man says that verbal communication doesn’t work, chances are, he’s just bad at verbal communication.
Don’t get me wrong– your advice helped me to realize that it was possible for me to master the art of online dating and casual sex when I was younger and inexperienced. I wouldn’t be able to consistently schedule dates and sleep with 4 new women in a month had it not been for your initial advice. But now that I’ve become more successful and more experienced, I’ve begun to recognize a lot of the flaws in your system and your beliefs. I don’t really follow your blog anymore for that reason– I disagree with it more often than not now as I find it to be at odds with my experiences, my personality, and my values.
Yes of course.
That’s not a lot of time for such a lofty goal, so that would be extremely difficult, but technically possible if you were willing to blow your brains out with work during that entire time, never take a vacation, etc.
Haha. That’s happened to me too. Ah, women.
In the future though, don’t ever send a woman who does that something like “You are in a new relationship?” Ugh, no; that’s the exact wrong thing to do. Instead just go radio silent and hit her up again in 4-6 months when the new temporary guy is gone. If you achieved Lock-In your odds are good.
Women in their forties are the horniest women on the planet, as I’ve noted before. They still have sky-high ASD, but they’re horny as hell (horny and ASD are two different things, and a woman can have a high degree of both.)
1. Social circle game doesn’t count, as another commenter has already noted.
2. Instead of giving your opinion about women’s ASD levels, state your case in specific numbers. In other words, how many over-33 women (either in real numbers or as a percentage) where you live and you didn’t know before the first date have fucked you on the first or second date within 3-4 hours total face time with less than $27 spent? I have a feeling that number/percentage is low.
Also remember that just because you did something with 2-3 women doesn’t indicate a pattern. I too have had sex with women over 33 very fast with zero money spent, but they were the statistical exceptions to the rule. I’ve had a lot of guys argue on the internet that they “always” fuck over-33 women they don’t know really fast, but when I press them for actual numbers they reveal it’s two or three or four out of tens or scores they’ve attempted it with.
As always, the exception to the rule proves the rule.
Wow, bizarre. That’s the exact opposite of my experience and the experience of the vast majority of men I’ve spoken to about this. My only guess is some kind of regional difference, or you’re dating a very specific “type” of woman.
Correct. Low empathy is the only negative side effect of having extremely high Outcome Independence. I just don’t give a shit about how other people feel, nor relate well to other people’s extreme feelings, particularly negative ones. (Though being married has forced me to improve my empathy lately; that’s one of the reasons I did it.)
Incorrect. I have very high intuition (even according to personality tests) and I am very good at sensing if a woman is into me or not. If I didn’t have that ability I would not be as successful with women as I am.
Empathy (which is very low for me) and intuition (which is high for me) are two different things.
That’s fine; I’ve done this and other men have done this as well. It’s for more confident / advanced guys though.
Totally understand. If my material doesn’t resonate with you then you shouldn’t read it. Again, my guess is that either your city/region is unusual (entirely possible) or that you are (purposely or unconsciously) attracting (or screening) a very particular type of woman instead of fucking a broad spectrum of “any girl who is cute/hot” which is what my system is based on.
Hard to say. It might be an age thing– I’m 29; you’re 47. Women probably have different expectations of you because of your age. I imagine if you were 29 too you’d be able to have sex within the first hour or two of a first date too. Most of the women I date are between 22 and 33. I’ve dated a few women over 33, though, and didn’t notice much of a difference (though to be fair, I’d need more experience to draw any meaningful conclusions there; but women over 33 usually don’t want to meet me). I don’t think it’s a regional thing since I live in Austin, which is essentially the Portland of the south. I’d also argue that the men you survey about this might not be representative of the general population if they’re mostly your readers.
I think this is the crux of the matter. When I can sense that a woman’s pulling back or apprehensive about something, I immediately address it and talk about it with them. It’s easy for me to relate to them and understand where they’re coming from by putting myself in their shoes, which consequently often warms them up to me. I reassure them that if they don’t want to rush into sex, it’s cool; I don’t want to pressure them into doing anything they don’t want to do. They’re free to go date other guys that are willing to wait, whom they’re more compatible with. Sometimes this removes all doubts from their mind and it’s smooth sailing from there; sometimes we just go our separate ways and wish each other the best.
Again, I think it goes back to empathy. A lot of the women who sleep with me tell me that they liked me immediately because they could sense that I “got” them and understood them. I feel like you might be underestimating or downplaying how attractive it is to be able to emotionally connect with a woman within the first few minutes of meeting her. Or, at the very least, I always inferred from your writings that trying to connect with women on an emotional level like that is a step in the wrong direction when pursuing casual sex.
This is because she wants to fuck on a first date. If she wants to fuck on a first date and you don’t fuck her on a first date, she’s gone.
I’m going to add my voice to those of the people who say they dont agree with this thing about high ASD / over 33. I’ve always found the complete opposite, but I’ve put it down to cultural differences between Asian women and western women.
Alright, let’s see what your exception is…
And there we go. I’m talking about Western women, always. I have zero experience with Asian women over age 33.
Hahaha. I had a good first date a few weeks ago. All went well, I said good bye after about 90 minutes and noticed the girl looked a bit disappointed and peeved. She rang me up a few hours later, sounding a bit annoyed and said “Can I ask you something? Are you gay?” I laughed and said, No, why do you ask? She said, well, you didn’t ask me back to your place or anything. I said she was welcome to come over any time she liked and we set up a time for the next day. Needless to say, she had her clothes off within five minutes. But this is really a case in favor of the two date system, not against it. She was in her late 20s.
this is my most recent experiences.
i invited a HB8 (im 5 or 6 guy by myself) to first date. I made the following mistake:
– i drove 30 mins a way (i met a girl prior to that) to see her, @4pm
i took 30 mins to venue 1
i got her compliance to selfie together
i pulled her around 6pm. Her ASD was quite high in the motel, she will say things like,
”me and my friends went to this awesome X (place)
”usually i will hang out with guys X amount of hours”
”don’t you think we should go to A/B/C place (hinted me instead letting me sexually escalating onto her)”
i took me around 1.5 hours to completely naked her off.
my question is: why a hot girl will not enthusiastically (avoid) kissing/blowjob, but she will let you bang her at the end? Was that genuine sex or just ASD matter. Because when i finally throw away my condom (i didn’t cum), she shown lil different demeanour (more cheerful)
I didn’t follow BD’s model, i was thinking
‘if i didn’t pull her first day, there’s a big chance she aint going to see me again (she has too much choices), plus she wore quite seductively on late afternoon date, i should be going for it!”
i’ve three girls currently i didn’t bang her on 2nd date.
one, she touches me a lot but wasn’t willing to follow me to motel.
second one, she followed me in, but we just hugged no kiss
the last one, she followed me in, we did heavy make out, but didn’t take her cloth off completely, just sucked one of her nipple (i had difficult time finding her cloth button lol, she will constantly cover her bottom part with her hands), i had third date (an hour) comfort date with her, no pull
so should i completely ditch 2nd one, and go ask the first and third one again?
i tried the comfort thing if a girl didn’t allow me to bang on 2nd date, i will chill on third date, then proceed try to bang on fourth date.
i had 2nd date with a girl, i went to a bar( which i seldom does cause im driving plus im not a drinker)
she ordered a meal because hunger but i kinda insisted ”i don’t do dinner date”, she proceeded anyway and didn’t show any paying gesture.
my question is should i verbalize on the spot, ”i only pay for your drinks, not meal.” and walk away if she still insists?
@yoylo
i agree with you, recently i had first date with a 20 year old girl with a kid
i didn’t pull her even though i had her physical compliances, because i don’t know her 33 years old bf’s job (they’re not yet legally married eventhough had a baby)
there we go, i had moral implication but i wanna bang her as well.
another girl i had her suck my finger in my car, but i was uncertain didn’t pull her to motel, now she has been playing ”seen-and-no-reply-messages” games.
@@CCMidvest
facebook dating is very good, i’ve had number of lays there without paying for any shitty subscription also they allow the ”privacy protection” where your photos wont be stolen easily.
Haha. If it’s a cheap pub or cafe and she really seems hungry and apart from that she’s okay, just pay for the godammed meal. It’s kind of an unusual scenario, though. Most women dont want to admit that they feel starving and wolf down food on a first date. And a lot of them actually seem to prefer splitting the bill or paying their own share anyway, I find. Or maybe they order a slice of cake or a sandwich with coffee and let you pay, maybe after making a half hearted offer to pay themselves. But it’s not worth making a fuss over it. I think the main point is just not a romantic dinner date. Certainly don’t bring flowers and a box of chocolates.
@incognito
funny enough she blocked me days after, and she didn’t even manage to finish the noodle.
no more place with expensive foods served next time,
nowadays if there are too many drinks i will point my finger to any girl
”you can only choose A/B/C”
Hate this? The Girl Power chicks I go out with gleefully accept this fact. Most are actually jealous of chicks who are confident enough to do this since a lot of progressive chicks are overweight or otherwise not “traditionally” attractive.
Case in point, I just came home from a first date with a chick like this at an upscale bar. She kept saying about our waitress “man I wish I had a figure like hers, I’d show everything off!”
I think BD is confusing sex positive girl power with sex negative TERFs (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists). It’s TERFs who hate that observation, since they want everything to go back to the 1800s, only they want to swap out the genders where chicks and only chicks get to decide what is best for everyone, dudes and chicks alike.
I’ve met exactly two TERFs in my life and both were bat shit insane: Overly religious, had wide, dark eyes, and didn’t blink once when speaking to me. It’s like they weren’t human. Truly unsettling.
S’Funny, the last time this happened, I had sex with the chick right out of the gate. Went right back to her place after the date. But it was only one time, so there’s no way it is measurable in any way. But yeah I can’t imagine that happening ever again lol.
For me when I was starting out I tried to follow the BD advice of one hour date and I felt it often did not work because I was making it forced 1 hour and I did not have the skills to build up the vibe and connection that fast. At the same time I noticed the really long dates were often complete waste of time.
I started doing something in between and have found a sweet spot for me somewhere at 1.5 – 2h. Over time I could push that down a bit but noticed that 1h is a bit too short / unnatural for me with most women and over 2h is def too long.
I think this 1 hour rule applies when you have mastered your dating routine otherwise its better to be a bit more relaxed about it.
I also find it often unnatural to just end it like that our of nowhere.
Usually it means she doesn’t take it as a real date or she has some extreme fears / mental blocks. Either way its a waste of time. In my experience the women who wanted to do that were extremely rare, maybe 1 in a few hundred or something like that. I also noticed the last case of women doing that or wanting to bring someone were years ago when my vibe and skills were very different so I think it perhaps has to do with the way you communicate.
Haha, good for you. In my area women start to get the I am getting old and need to be serious now and not a slut like before at around 28 (some women) and the percentages go up quickly as you hit 30. Over 30 the women are mostly bland, boring and with a list of criteria. Or if not waiting for some special magical feeling to happen on first date otherwise its a no go.
Very young women are great but quite hard to get on dates with constant rescheduling and needing more time to chat before a date. I find mid 20s to be the sweet spot in my area.
This has been my experience as well. I think you have to play it by the situation. After some experimenting with different things I still think BD system is good but I find it as a generalized guideline, especially when unclear about how to proceed, rather than a rule.
This is interesting because in the past this has been difficult for me as well but I have noticed that over time I became better and better at reading a woman so I can often tell how this is going to go.
I also go nowadays for first date kiss when it looks like the girl wants it, but don’t push it when I don’t get that feeling. I have noticed that unlike BD advice it seems to help and not make things harder provided I did it with a girl who was clearly into it.
I wonder if this would still work for you in my area. There are women here who would do that but most of the local women are obsessed with very traditional ideas of relationships and that it needs to be going somewhere even when what they are doing is clearly serial monogamy. Maybe its just me but whenever I try to have this conversation with women about these things it always ends with me lecturing the woman so nowadays I find its best to avoid this topic completely until we are dating for a few months at least.
I don’t think its leading on when clearly she is confused / not ready for a relationship. Ok, that is my assesment which she can disagree with but still. That is what I base it on.
I think it could be a regional difference because I have similar results here but also could be the way him and me behave at the date. I am not sure what he does but I am not able to follow exactly your first date script because it doesn’t fit and I find it too hard to do the things you say in that way so early on.
I don’t see why the two have to be connected. In fact with outcome independence you can have the true empathy that isn’t sentimental.
Yes, I experienced some woman who was sending me clear signals she is probably quite slutty wanted to meet and I said okay but I have about an hour and she said that won’t do. I was like what the hell?! But then I realized she probably was looking for a lay that night.
I have a 90% strike rate on “first dates”. The key for me is to ensure the date is at my place. The key here is to gain trust obviously. I do that by the following:-
Tell them about my kids with the intend to show I am a good dad. (which I am but them hearing how I love my kids for some reason builds trust really fast)
Tell them I love my dogs
Make sure my Facebook Profile is awesome and looks normal
Tell them I have an awesome job
Patience – I don’t push them for a first date – sometimes I talk for a few days on Tinder / whatsapp
Once they come over I always cook for them and create a very relaxing environment. I also make sure I know what they like (checkup on their Facebook) so I prepare a few conversation starters.
This along with BD’s other tips works like a bomb
I brought this up but I wasn’t saying BD is wrong. As he and another commenter pointed out, social circle game doesn’t count. ccMidwest and I are likely in the same geographical area. In my case BD is correct that most of the over 33’s I have been with already knew of me somehow via at least weak social circles. Sparse population is the main reason for this. My data is only about 4 women over 33 so also not a lot of examples, but all of them were first night lays. One knew some of my friends and was at my after party, one met me at the club, but she had been keeping eyes on me before I just didn’t know it, one was very weak social circle (she knew only one of my friends) through facebook, and one I had met at the club who actually did not know me at all and I took her home. Admittedly, I have not set up a date with an over 33 in my area via online dating. All of my online dating filters to under 33’s.
I also tend to think the older women in this area have less ASD than others. I get more ASD out of the 27-30 year olds it seems like but still not that bad.
No offense but this sounds to me like exactly the opposite of what BD suggests you do. I don’t do any of that shit as it would set the expectation of provider.
Yes, my experience is these are the worst. Over 33 it starts to actually go down. Maybe this is location thing that we live in places where they peak earlier.
I feel that patience as mentioned in this context is what is needed for very young women, for older its not needed and this I remember is exactly BD’s advice.
The thing about Facebook profile is also BD advice.
To some extent the thing about the kinds is as well.
The stuff about dogs and job – yeah that is provider stuff like crazy. Overall I think it’s not bad, but a provider would take them out for a dinner or to cinema or event date first. This sounds like some mixture and if I understood correctly then he takes them straight to his place for a first meet which is extreme player so I could see this could work.
Personally I would not take a woman home whom I have not met in person before but that is just me. I also think the numbers who would do that are low but I can see that most who would will be a very high win chance. So perhaps this can be efficient – have to go for large numbers and a lot of chatting but zero money on going out and zero dates out of the house? I never tried this but it sounds interesting. Might do that with one girl soon she seems shed go straight to my house.
Ehhhh…. something doesn’t smell right here.
Blackdragon ,if you go on 10 dates with 10 women you like,how many of them do you fuck after maximum 3 dates?(i know that you only go the the 3 rd date only if she gave you a bj on the 2nd date,or more).
Im wondering because i need to know what is a realistic ratio,most guys are kj, like the guy with 90% ratio.
Also,last thursday you didnt posted an article on the Cj blog and this article has the extended audio available to anyone.
What is kj? My ratio is something like 1 in 4 or 1 in 5. So it is a lot of work but it is reliable and steady.
I can easily imagined better ratios if my first date skills were better (there is a lot of space for improvement) and also if I looked more like a male model, but unless you have both of those I struggle to imagine its realistic to hear about something like 90%. I usually assume the guy is good and knows what hes doing but is exaggerating, perhaps a lot. I can easily believe 50% or even 70%, but 90%? Not really.
kj=keyboard jockey.
Alpha Omega
What is your age?How many dates have you been in total?If you were to classify yourself between,normal beta,high end beta,alpha 1.0,low end alpha 2.0,how would you rank yourself?What country are you from?
It must be the social circle aspect of it for me then. Most I didn’t know, but they knew “of me” and I have a reputation in my circles for being discreet and not wanting anything serious.
I work social circle game just like I do sales, so that’s probably it.
Facebook dating has been interesting for sure. I have one pic, and that’s of me with my daughter. Screams provider for sure. Still, some lays out of it. I got 15 average/cute matches the first day on it. (21 total “liked” me, 6 I did not like back)
Only contacted 4 of them cause I’m lazy, had sex with 3. Kept one as a FB.
Also always good to meet her close to where you are staying. In walking distance or less than fifteen minutes drive.
The Mystery Method concept of taking her to multiple venues works very well. Two or three in a night. As long as they are close and don’t cost you. Water features and cool sites or city sculptures to see or a place to grab a snack or a shot. Some cities offer a lot of this. Although this breaks the first date rule I find it to be very effective. I don’t want to get into the psychology of it but I know others have used it to good effect.
33. You mean in total lifetime or recently? Total Lifetime probably less than a 100, but hard to say, last couple of years, or so then def. more than 50 for sure. I am def very dominant and bossy with people even with managers at work situations which sometimes leads me to trouble which I would say is very alpha 1, but I am also very omega (lone wolf style, I generally assume two roles in a team that work for me and for the team is either the boss or the external advisor who doesn’t care what they do (when not a clear alpha role)) and I am partly outcome independent so probably low end alpha 2 is the best approximation. I live in western europe right now, previously I have lived in south western europe, central europe and mid western europe and I travel regularly all over the world. I live currently in a small city that is a university town with disproportionately large population of people under 30, especially under 25.
I think when asking what is realistic it is important to also know your starting point and what timescale you are looking at, so to help you get an idea here is some indication from me:
About 5 years ago I was a hopeless virgin and got my first girl around this time 5 years ago who became a monogamous gf. 3 years ago I had experience with a few women but it was completely random and unreliable to get anywhere and could get dates only very rarely. A bit over 2 years ago I reached a point where I could get dates almost every week if I really worked for it and wanted to. Most of the girls I banged were last 2 years. Two and half years ago I reached a point where I had my first dating more than one girl at a time for a while and they knew it and accepted it. This year and last year I already started to get some women back who left me previously. This year I reached a milestone dating more then two girls at a time over a period of time and the period of time they stay is starting to be clearly longer as well and they are totally fine with coming to me, even if it means traveling to another city or country even.
It does take time and effort and some experimentation and you shouldn’t expect better results from week to week but over many months and especially years you should see an improving trend like what I described if you are doing things “in the right way” – which I believe depends on who you are and where you live and what you want from women.
I just realized that you can def push your ratio very very high also if you take time chatting with the women before a meet and only go meet those who are very very enthusiastic and you perhaps had some video calls and or did sexting and she tells you you got her very wet. If you only meet such women then I can easily imagine the ratio being 90% or perhaps close to 100 even. However, that will take a lot of time and you will miss out on a lot of women who you could have laid. I think going to a lot of short dates with women you barely know is more time effective and your total lay count will be higher even if your ratio is something like 1 in 10 or even less, but I could be wrong, I only did that a few times. Usually I meet them with exchanging only a few paragraphs of sentences.
Alpha Omega
Thank you very much for your answear.
What nationality are you?
I think you are French.
South western europe-France(Marseille),central europe -Switerzland(Geneva),mid western -europe(Belgium).
How did you had the ability to move in different parts of europe,because it will require to know at least 2 different languages besides english to get employed?
These days my first date success ratio is around 50% when I do it in the USA, sometimes 60% (and much higher when I do it internationally, but I assume you mean in the USA).
This means I don’t need to bother to schedule 10 dates anymore; one or two will usually do it for me (since I only need one or two new women whenever I bother to go on first dates).
I know. We had some serious technical problems over there last week. My fault.
That problem was fixed several days ago.
That is the level I expect to reach in a few years if I continue doing what I am doing so that sounds very reasonable and realistic.
Close, I lived in some of those or near some of those, but you are off on some of the parts or definitions, not that it really matters, you get the picture.
You are completely wrong. However, it is true its much harder (meaning it takes substantially more time to find a position) if you do not speak the local language. However in academia it is mostly irrelevant and outside of academia large engineering companies are a good option. I did both in the past. Or you can do what BD does and advocates and start your own location independent business. You can also be an English teacher, top level executive, or talented programmer (in this case you can probably take your pick of anywhere in the world and get huge salary for local standards at the snap of your fingers), or a salesman servicing English speaking markets. There is probably much more but as you can see there are loads of options. Also if you are willing to go to small towns in a middle of nowhere they might be struggling to find the right person and might be willing to accept you don’t speak a language. Another frequent thing to get in is to do some shitty work at international company that requires shift work – those ones always struggle to find people so I imagine you won’t have a problem there.
I don’t go on dates and I don’t date women at all, I just like to have sex at times even though I am too lazy approaching women. But as far as women over 33 goes, here is my experience.
I have slept with at least 10+ stranger women over the age of 33 in recent years (again, I am not looking for approaches, it just happened whenever I was really horny). I met these women either in stores, street, bars, weddings, couch-bar surfing events etc. so I didn’t know them at all. There were some patterns though, none of them seem drunk, most of them claimed they had boyfriends or husbands and they were equally aggressively flirting and all of them gave me some choosing signals. The russian went as far as kissing me after 30 minutes during a wedding. As for their nationalities, I remember 4 german women, 1 spanish woman, 1 brazilian, 1 asian, 3 polish women, 1 russian, 1 turkish and there were a few others. Like I said, the lays happened on the same day, except for that asian woman and I never took any of them out to dates. I thought I share this with you because I have also rarely met stranger women over 33 I had problems with getting to sleep with me. In fact, I lack exprience of having sex with women over 33 who are in my social circle, this basically has never happened, maybe because I wasn’t trying.
What about going to HER place not yours?
Honestly, I had something like 2x times the success rate when I lead a date to that direction and not my place, even though my pad is pretty much designed to suit the purpose. It seems like women feel mosre comfortable at their home.
50/50 for me as far as first night lays. Twice I was denied the first night after some sexual activity, one was me fingering but stopped short of sex, the other went all the way to bj then told me that was as much as she’d go the first night. Both under 33. But the two that did fuck the first night did it exactly the same way. They offered me their bed and stated they would sleep on the couch (all scenarios were after bar/club). Both times I said, “I’d prefer if you cuddle up with me in your bed.” To which they smiled and said sure. Then when I was ready I’d say I’m going to lay down and will be waiting for them.
Hey Blackdragon.
My question is a short story regarding this post.
Q) I went on a date with this girl 2 years ago when I was a beta. I gave off really needy vibes and she basically ghosted me after that one date.
2 years later a couple days ago she saw me and shes being all flirty.
Do I do the 2 day dating system in this scenario or should I just call her straight over for sex?
Who has the data on Asian women while living in Asia?
Like China, Thailand, Japan.
Would love to hear your stories if you are from the United States and living in Asia.
In like fashion I have notes from Mexico, Colombia, Puerto Rico, Chile, Brazil, South Korea Los Angeles, Las Vegas, San Diego, and Pittsburgh (yes, Pennsylvania).
In the U.S. I would say I have a much higher chance with a woman over 33 and her ASD if she is married or in some type of relationship as opposed to her being single. Because at that age if they are single something unusual is going on (more than likely it’s an issue, not a good reason) and generally you don’t want to deal with whatever it is.
Not to be a douche but it’s just easier. They have their security blanket they can go back to and be unhappy with after they have a night with you.
Reasons range from
They are poly
They are trying an open relationship for a while
She cheats
She is on her way out of the relationship
It just happened
How long did take you in total face time on average?
Interesting. A lot were not Western. I have very little experience with non-Western women over-33.
The vast majority of women on the planet live with other people (family, kids, friends, roommates, etc) which makes this logistically and statistically unfeasible most of the time. But if it’s an option, sure.
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
I’ve done it many times while visiting Asia. But not with any great numbers.
Accurate. Non-single over-33 women are much easier than single-and-looking over-33 women. Mainly because the former aren’t provider hunters.
I think his question is valid actually. He is asking if he should treat a girl who wants to come back even if its just after one date as a new woman he doesn’t know.
My experience is in this case chances are overwhelming she will accept invitation directly to your house and want to get to sex fast, but my experience is based on women doing this after a few months not years. Years I also have experience with but in this case we already met at my house and did stuff before.
I would say suggest she can come over to your place and if she makes it clear she’s not comfortable with that then do the 2 date thing, or, even better meet somewhere very close to your house so you can bounce.
Basically had sex with all women in the same day I met them, except for that asian woman – I called her 3 days later and got her to my place. When I go to a bar or wedding or another meet up and learn a new woman, then it takes me maybe 1-2 hours before I can get some action, depending on the circumstances. I might add though, I never push them unless I am sure they like me. It’s been always the women who made the first step if I remember correctly
Yeah. some of them were not western women but they all live in western countries, mostly Germany. I guess they have adapted to a western life style.
Validity of the question isn’t relevant to me. The issue is it’s about one girl he wants, and I don’t answer those questions. Others can though.
Thanks for the reply. I’ll try out what you said.
@blackdragon yes it’s true the question is about one girl. So, if i had made the question more general you would have answerd it?
@Yousuf idris
The problem with your question is that it places you in the wrong frame of mind. One should be focusing on improving our success with women in general, not with one particular girl. In the grand scheme of things, your results with that specific girl are irrelevant.
Much more general, yes. Laying out a very specific scenario simply excluding it occurred with particular one girl, no, because I can tell when men do that.
Read what Felix said.
“Ehhhh…. something doesn’t smell right here.”
It is what it is. Note my “target” market is basically divorced woman between the ages of 30 and 40.
BD, what do you think about giving a note to a clerk girl with my name and phone number? It is always people around when I see her .
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
LOL. Thanks.
I meant it as a pick up technique with some women I use to see but in THEIR work environment.
Anyway, this answered my question! 🙂
“The answer is, you text her one more time, pitch the date one more time, and if she says no you hard next her and move to the next woman on the list, you dumbass. Did you really have to ask such a stupid question?“