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-By Caleb Jones
We need to be clear what you’re converting to. You are converting from a LTR, a relationship where you’re only allowed to have sex with your girlfriend (which is insane, anti-masculine, beta as fuck, conducive to both drama and lying, and unsustainable) to an OLTR where she’s still your girlfriend, but you’re allowed to have sex with other women provided they’re only FB’s or one night stands. Much better.
You can not convert an LTR to a MLTR or FB, so don’t even try. No Western woman will allow this unless the scenario is highly unusual (like you’re a wealthy multimillionaire or something). If you’re so fed up with your current LTR that you actually don’t want her as a girlfriend anymore, just politely dump her, move on to other women, and maybe go back to re-acquire her as a MLTR or FB a year or so down the road.
Before we talk about how to convert, we have to get one thing straight first...
Converting from monogamy to nonmonogamy with a serious partner is psychologically difficult for both men and women. The problem isn’t that nonmonogamy is bad. Quite the opposite; it’s quite wonderful. The problem is you’re radically shifting the pattern of behavior she’s already become accustomed to. If you both have BBQ chicken for dinner every Saturday night, and one Saturday night, you tell her you’re both eating fish instead, she’s going to be confused and upset because it’s not what she’s used to, not because fish is bad.
Therefore, even if you do everything right, she may just dump you. Therefore, before you convert anyone, you need to accept with 100% conviction that this may happen, and that you are 100% emotionally prepared for this. If you can’t do this, then you have oneitis, you are a pussy and a beta male, and there is nothing I or anyone else can do to help you. Have fun living a life of drama, limitations, and pain.
I’m not saying she will leave you. I’m saying she might leave you. What are the odds that she’ll leave? There’s no way to know without me examining your relationship in detail. They could be low, they could be high. Guys who are married or live with their girlfriends often have high odds of her staying (usually 70% or higher) because a woman living with a man has lots of logistical investment, such as finances, lifestyle, social standing, religious validation, possibly children, etc. Your girlfriend who doesn’t live with you has none of that stuff. As I've talked about many times, she can just end the relationship and replace you with the next slobbering beta male whenever she likes, and she knows it. This means the odds of her leaving really depend on other factors, such as how good of a boyfriend you’ve been, how much she loves you / needs you, how much drama you two have had, how often you make her cum during sex, how long your relationship has been, how hot she is, how old she is, and many other factors.
Once you emotionally accept that she may leave, then you can choose one of two ways to convert her.
The Returning Hero Method
This easier, though more emotionally difficult (for you) method is the Returning Hero Method. Here’s essentially how you do it:
1. You break up with her, but do so very, very nicely.
2. You go away from her, have sex with other hot women, and Alpha-up in all areas of your life (sex, fitness, work, Mission), etc.
3. 2-6 months later, you return to your ex and make her a FB, MLTR, or OLTR, while still continuing to have sex with other women.
Frankly, most guys in monogamous relationships aren’t going to have the balls to do this. Oneitis is endemic to monogamy, so most monogamous men are going to be horrified at the suggestion that they actually break up with their girlfriend (albeit temporarily) in order to open up the relationship with her. Regardless, this method works. By leaving her first, and staying away, and having sex with other women, your attractiveness in her eyes goes way up.
Do this for 2-6 months. During this time, do not contact your girlfriend, but you are allowed to respond to her texts or messages as long as she doesn’t text you all the time. If she does, stop responding to her, or only respond to her about once or twice a week. (The Returning Hero Method is not a soft next, so the rules are a little different.)
If this method seems a little too dangerous to you, you can use the second method which is harder and involves more drama, but may seem a little less risky.
The Just Do It Method
This method is when you convert the LTR to an OLTR by the only other way possible; by just doing it. You follow these general steps:
1. You have a sit-down discussion with her where you tell her, not ask her, but tell her that you are going to start having sex with other women. As soon as she opens her mouth to scream at you, you interrupt her by quickly stating these five conditions:
A. She is still your girlfriend and you’re not leaving or ending the relationship.
B. All the other women will be fuck buddies or one night stands, that’s it. There will be no “dating” other women.
C. You will use a condom 100% of the time with these women.
D. You will be extremely discreet and not tell anyone else you’re doing it. You will never do anything like post pics of these women on your Facebook or Instagram pages, talk about them with other people, etc.
2. She will scream, yell, and cry. When she threatens to break up with you, tell her that you love her, want to be with her forever, and don’t want that to happen, but if she feels that’s what she needs to do, you’ll understand and let her go. You just want her to be happy.
3. Put your cock inside a new woman within seven days of this discussion. (Use a condom of course; don't be stupid.) If you tell your LTR that you’re going to have sex with other women and you don’t do it, you will severely damage your relationship and further increase your standing as an unattractive beta male in her eyes.
The tell, not ask part is the most important component of this process. Most monogamous men attempting to open up the relationship do so by meekly going to their girlfriends (or wives) and just “bring it up,” or worse, ask them for permission. Of course, this never works. No monogamous woman will ever verbally allow you to start fucking other women unless it was her idea first, so asking for her permission, or attempting to use logic or her good graces to get her to say yes won’t work. Instead, you just have to tell her you’re going to do it whether she likes it or not, and just start doing it. If you’ve been a good boyfriend and she loves you very much, she’ll put up with it and make it work. If not, she won’t. Ether way, you’re better off and no longer a beta, so I view this as a win/win.
It’s also important to throw those five things at her as fast as possible when you first tell (not ask, but tell) her that you’re going to do this. This is because every objection she’ll throw at you is covered by those five things. She can’t object to something you’ve already covered. All she can do is stay with you and make it work, or leave you and irrationally hope the next guy won’t eventually cheat on her (which, of course, he will).
Be very kind, understanding, and loving throughout this entire process. This is going to be very hard for her, and it’s not her fault (it’s YOUR fault for getting monogamous in the first place, you dumbass).
If she stays with you, she’s now your OLTR, and you must adhere to those rules (only have sex with FB’s, keep your outcome independent frame, never get de facto monogamous, etc).
If she leaves you, no problem. Man up, stop crying, and take advantage of your new freedom by having sex with some new women. Get 2-4 FB’s or MLTR’s on rotation (read this article on how to do that), and wait at least four months if you don’t hear from her, and hit her up again. Have a brief conversation, then invite her over to your place. If she agrees, have sex with her again, and bring her back into your life as a FB or MLTR. (She can not be an OLTR; she dumped you when you verbalized nonmonogamy so she’s probably not qualified for an OLTR. Hey, you could have been like most other men and just cheated on her behind her back. Instead, you treated her like an adult and were honest and up-front with her. If she responded to this by dumping you, she's not OLTR material.)
If instead she refuses to see you, nicely end the conversation immediately and hit her up again in about a year. Keep having sex with your new MLTR’s and FB’s.
Regardless if she stays with you or not, welcome your balls back to your body, and enjoy your new Alpha Male 2.0 life. You’ve got a great future.
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Golden Kangaroo 2017-07-27 05:45:20
Regardless of the lack of direct evidence, but my hypothesis is the result from many man who try to do this methods could be explained by your own "prophetic" statement, therefore:
The tell, not ask part is the most important component of this process. Most monogamous men attempting to open up the relationship do so by meekly going to their girlfriends (or wives) and just “bring it up,” or worse, ask them for permission. Of course, this never works.It just end there.
RandomJin 2017-07-27 05:47:51
How long should you wait for the talk when an ex girlfriend comes back?
CrabRangoon 2017-07-27 08:51:43
BD this right here "Therefore, even if you do everything right, she may just dump you. Therefore, before you convert anyone, you need to accept with 100% conviction that this may happen, and that you are 100% emotionally prepared for this." Once you can get your mind around this concept, things get much much easier overall. It doesn't just apply to this scenario, but anything in an LTR where you think she might get upset. I always think, "what's the worst that happens?" She leaves me. I have other girls in the rotation so my sex life won't come to a screeching halt AND as you state, they often come back down the road. The problem is most guys at the very least don't want to deal with any shit, drama, etc... so they cave and go along with plans which don't jive with their lifestyle just to keep the peace or because they are scared to lose the girl. Girls are roller coasters of emotions-you'll never have total peace and harmony for very long because it's how they're wired. And yes, eventually they will probably bail to go find a beta boy for some perceived security (which will bore the shit out of them).
Mark 2017-07-27 09:48:00
I'd like to buy the book but the payment processor "clickbank" doesn't work for me, am I the only one ? If not you may be losing some business. Is there a way to use paypal instead ?
Blackdragon 2017-07-27 10:16:06
How long should you wait for the talk when an ex girlfriend comes back?Not long. About a month.
I always think, “what’s the worst that happens?” She leaves me. I have other girls in the rotation so my sex life won’t come to a screeching halt AND as you state, they often come back down the road.A key success technique that I've talked about before is to do just that; ask yourself what the worst that could happen is, and then ask yourself if you could handle it. 99% of the time, you'll find the answer is yes. It's shocking how much of today's fears are unfounded.
I’d like to buy the book but the payment processor “clickbank” doesn’t work for me, am I the only one ?Yes. No one else has complained that I know of.
Is there a way to use paypal instead ?Yes. Just send a manual PayPal payment to email@example.com with a note attached indicating which book you want.
joelsuf 2017-07-27 10:21:03
I know many of you reading this are (sadly) already in a monogamous relationship with a woman even though you haven’t moved in with her.Judging by the butthurt I've been seeing in the comments on blogs like this, I'm starting to get the impression that most of these readers are hopelessly single and just want to get mad at chicks. This is just some weird observation of mine so take it with a grain of salt. I'm just seeing a lot of outcome dependence from users here lately.
The Returning Hero Method is not a soft next, so the rules are a little different.So what's the fundamental difference? I see both as "time off the relationship."
She is allowed to have sex with other men if she really wants toThat's what I said with my last gf, it was all I said. This is exactly what I said: "You can keep looking for other guys if you want, there's always someone better out there no matter what because nobody's perfect." She was talking about how she had a FB and she was sad that she couldn't hit it because she was with me. I told her that she could still have sex with him, but just as an FB. I then told her about a chick who I was hitting up and I told her that I was interested in making her an FB. And she was like "yeah go for it." We weren't really a serious relationship however; this was like 3 weeks and 5 sex sessions into the relationship. I feel like the timing of the conversion is important. The longer you wait, the harder it is, but converting right out of the gate is almost impossible. Unlike what BD says, I don't think this is an age thing, I think all chicks nowadays no matter how old they are know that it is in their best interest to use omegas and betas, lock down unsuspecting alpha 1s and convert them into betas, and get with Alpha 2s on the side.
Blackdragon 2017-07-27 11:05:55
So what’s the fundamental difference?1. Some level of contact is allowed. No contact is allowed during a soft next. 2. The soft next is designed to help change her behavior. The Returning Hero Method is designed to help change her perception. Similar, but not the same thing.
Unlike what BD says, I don’t think this is an age thing, I think all chicks nowadays no matter how old they are know that it is in their best interest to use omegas and betas, lock down unsuspecting alpha 1s and convert them into betas, and get with Alpha 2s on the side.The difference is much younger women don't actively screen out non-betas like the over-33 provider hunters tend to do.
AlphaOmega 2017-07-27 11:54:37
The difference is much younger women don’t actively screen out non-betas like the over-33 provider hunters tend to do.Its still not clear to me where you get these numbers from, like over 33, or women under 23... Sure there are some stages in life where one behaves differently and wants different things but these numbers seem kinda arbitrary to me. Is this based on your observational statistics or is a rough guess plus minus a couple of years around this age?
If you tell your LTR that you’re going to have sex with other women and you don’t do it, you will severely damage your relationship and further increase your standing as an unattractive beta male in her eyes.Probably best to have that conversation once youve already found new girl (but before you do anything with her), otherwise this can be quite hard to do within reasonable timescale for many.
joelsuf 2017-07-27 12:40:36
The difference is much younger women don’t actively screen out non-betas like the over-33 provider hunters tend to do.I guess its different experiences then. There's only been a couple of chicks I've gone out with who were legitimate provider hunters, and both were just pushing 33. My observation that all chicks in the west actively screen out betas is probably just a defense mechanism of mine I suppose.
Blackdragon 2017-07-27 13:39:50
Its still not clear to me where you get these numbers from, like over 33, or women under 23… Sure there are some stages in life where one behaves differently and wants different things but these numbers seem kinda arbitrary to me. Is this based on your observational statistics or is a rough guess plus minus a couple of years around this age?It's all empirical data based on my spreadsheet tracking and in discussions with literally hundreds of other men about this. Note that the age of 33 is an average, not an absolute. I demonstrated it in real time here: https://blackdragonblog.com/2013/04/25/online-dating-random-sample-older-women-younger-women/ and there is some scientific data here: https://blackdragonblog.com/2013/05/02/sex-as-we-age/ Here is more data on this issue I've examined in the past: https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/03/14/15767/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/03/28/date-women-33-part-two-2/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/09/21/older-women-vs-younger-women-chemistry-vs-attraction/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2017/04/27/pros-cons-older-women-vs-younger-women/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2013/06/23/the-double-standard-regarding-age-difference-in-relationships/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2011/09/16/the-evolution-of-the-modern-woman-from-age-16-to-35/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2011/05/31/womens-age-differences/ We're off topic now, so this is the last post in this thread where I'll discuss this issue. (Though you're more than welcome to keep discussing it with other commenters if you'd like.)
Biami Gainz 2017-07-27 13:49:26
Hey Blackdragon long time reader here and one of your younger readers (just turned 20!) .. im about to buy ur alpha unchained book cant wait I live in california and i just dropped out of college for many reasons I have a business which i love what i do and im very excited to read alpha unchained book while focusing on money!! One big question: I live w/ my parents and they are culturally conservative, what i mean is what is the best way u reccomend for a good looking 20yr old to get laid? college is out of the game since i dropped out, im not 21 yet for night game, i dont have time/skill for day game.. i guess online is the last option!! is this what u would reccomend for a 20yr old as well? 2) i can only have sex in the backseat of my car cause no way i can bring a girl to my home (this will change within 1 yr im moving out agreement parents gonna pay for my lease new apartment in a big city away from home 🙂 ... so will banging girls after 2-3 dates in my car be a turn off to many girls? please black dragon i need ur help!!!!! thank you so much (i have a nice mercedes suv, my parents have money lol)
Walter 2017-07-27 15:44:35
Its still not clear to me where you get these numbers from, like over 33, or women under 23… Sure there are some stages in life where one behaves differently and wants different things but these numbers seem kinda arbitrary to me. Is this based on your observational statistics or is a rough guess plus minus a couple of years around this age?More simply. Is just fertility. Women over 33 either already have kids or are already entering the "too old to have kids" zone. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2521666/Dangers-delaying-motherhood-30.html
Walter 2017-07-27 15:46:04
2) i can only have sex in the backseat of my car cause no way i can bring a girl to my home (this will change within 1 yr im moving out agreement parents gonna pay for my lease new apartment in a big city away from home … so will banging girls after 2-3 dates in my car be a turn off to many girls? please black dragon i need ur help!!!!! thank you so much (i have a nice mercedes suv, my parents have money lol)Ever heard of hotels?
Blackdragon 2017-07-27 16:41:04
what is the best way u reccomend for a good looking 20yr old to get laid?Read this.
KL 2017-07-27 17:58:51
Hi BD. I am thinking of taking this a little further. My wife and I only had one child, because of medical complications after the first child. I've always wanted more children, and so I want to turn my OLTR into a MLTR, i.e. have children with another woman. I don't think you have experience in this, but could you give me your best opinion on the best way to approach this? Would Step 1 be better or Step 2 in this situation? Thanks
daniel 2017-07-27 18:04:54
This raises a subject in my mind that needs some clarification. We all know about the importance of leaving "evidence" around for EFA of non-monogamy if you want to do this the right way (without ever getting monogamous in the first place) So in this case, with a conversion, considering that it's already so likely that she's going to blow out, how should a guy play this? You say to make sure you actually have sex with a girl that same week after announcing to the current mono gf. But it seems that doesn't matter unless she _knows_ you did it. On the other hand, it seems to me the odds of a blowout go WAY up if you leave evidence around on top of the announcement.
Blackdragon 2017-07-27 18:49:35
Probably best to have that conversation once youve already found new girl (but before you do anything with her), otherwise this can be quite hard to do within reasonable timescale for many.True.
My wife and I only had one child, because of medical complications after the first child. I’ve always wanted more children, and so I want to turn my OLTR into a MLTR, i.e. have children with another woman. I don’t think you have experience in this, but could you give me your best opinion on the best way to approach this? Would Step 1 be better or Step 2 in this situation?Depends on how open-minded your wife is. If she's the typical monogamous woman, you'll probably need to separate and move out if you actually want kids with another woman.
So in this case, with a conversion, considering that it’s already so likely that she’s going to blow out, how should a guy play this? You say to make sure you actually have sex with a girl that same week after announcing to the current mono gf. But it seems that doesn’t matter unless she _knows_ you did it. On the other hand, it seems to me the odds of a blowout go WAY up if you leave evidence around on top of the announcement.The concept of evidence vs. proof that I discuss in my books does not apply in this scenario. That's only for bringing brand new women gently into a FB or MLTR relationship. If this is a monogamous girlfriend to whom you're converting to an OLTR, she'll know when you fuck someone else, because you'll just flat-out tell her when she asks you (and trust me, she'll ask you, a lot). No "evidence" is needed, just honesty. You're both well past the point of nonverbalization already. You just tell her you're going to do it, do it, and tell her you did it if she asks, which she will. If at any point she actually leaves you, she leaves, and you're still better off in the long run. The goal here is to not prevent a "blow out." If you're focused on that, you're not doing this correctly. The goal is convert your lifestyle from monogamy to nonmonogamy, period, and do so in the best, most honest, and least-drama way you can.
Biami Gainz 2017-07-27 21:28:24
Ever heard of hotels? Lol im not going to spend that much money each time i have sex, do you know how expensive that is
Leon 2017-07-27 22:57:19
I surely won't do monogamous nor get myself into these situations any time soon, but I love this article, very well-written and practical. We need more of this kind of article BD. Keep up the good work!
simak 2017-07-28 03:41:04
"[...] You can not convert an LTR to a MLTR or FB, so don’t even try. No Western woman will allow this unless the scenario is highly unusual (like you’re a wealthy multimillionaire or something). [...]" Does "something" include living in Berlin?
Eduardo 2017-07-28 07:30:27
Does one of these methods has higher odds of success than the other?
Magok 2017-07-28 08:16:19
Wow, I thought you would never give advise to monogamous guys. Well, I guess there is no way to do this without hurting some feelings. What could be some "nice" ways to break up?
joelsuf 2017-07-28 10:54:41
What could be some “nice” ways to break up?Well what does every chick who wants to shoot down a boy say? "Its not you, its me," etc. I've said similar things to chicks that I didn't want to see anymore. If you wanna drop a chick like a bad habit, then just ignore her invitations and stop seeing her. Not too difficult. She'll get over it and find other dudes. No need to feel responsible for a chick who you don't like anymore. Usually if I just want to take time off, I just say it, and if she gives me any shit about it then I'll be like "well, your reaction is why. Your reactions make me feel trapped and I want to get away for awhile. I think it will be good for you too. We can still talk and stuff however." It helps if you sound like you don't want to say it too, like it actually hurts for you to say it. Which is a thing that alpha 1s don't do and that betas do way too intensely.
CrabRangoon 2017-07-28 11:56:34
@joelsuf Pretty solid ways of handling it if you want to break things off nicely. Of course as we all know women are emotional and will probably always give some level of shit or drama when you back away if they are really into it. That being said, they often callously ghost guys or just bail cuz of the feels so men should never feel bad about ending anything that's not giving you what you need. Honestly, they will be fine and very quickly. Women recover from breakups pretty fast and will be on to the next time in a couple months at most. I've seen this in my own life many times over. They will cry and scream when it's going down and then be totally fine in short order-I believe it's some sort of survival hard wiring in them. Like back in the caveman days if your tribe was conquered, they'd kill off the men and keep the women for breeding. Thus the women had to quickly forget about the old guys and get in bed with the new. Just a theory...
Walter 2017-07-28 14:29:14
Lol im not going to spend that much money each time i have sex, do you know how expensive that isYou don't have to do it every single time. Do it the first or second times you are with a new girl, then just keep doing it in the back of your car.
Gil Galad 2017-07-28 14:58:07
Women recover from breakups pretty fastI think it really depends, especially on who initiated the breakup. Some women go batshit crazy when it's the guy who breaks it off; to the point where you start suspecting that they *consciously* want to be the ones to do the dropping, like "how dare he not let me dump him and then chase me and kiss my ass". Others are (I think) more innocent and just aren't used to being dumped or caught more feels than you did and do the "just because just broke up with me doesn't mean I broke up with you thing", which goes many degrees from deep sadness without too much drama to actual harassment of the ex-boyfriend. But here too I think women are programmed, whether bio or socially, to try to make sure *they* do dumping, even when they're not conscious of this and don't intentionally plan for it.
daniel 2017-07-28 18:30:26
The goal here is to not prevent a “blow out.” If you’re focused on that, you’re not doing this correctly. The goal is convert your lifestyle from monogamy to nonmonogamy, period, and do so in the best, most honest, and least-drama way you can. Heh, well in that case, shouldn't the advice simply be "break up and start over with new women?", rather than bothering to attempt a conversion? ; p That's a good point that she will just be asking you about it after you make the announcement though, hadn't thought of that but yeah, that's bound to be the case. Slightly OT but, this makes me wonder about "normal" A2 relationships. MLTR and OLTRs. They are unlikely to be asking you this question if you're doing everything right. Is it still necessary to make it obvious to them, on a regular or semi-regular basis, that you are fooling around?
Leon 2017-07-28 22:06:57
I think it really depends, especially on who initiated the breakup. Some women go batshit crazy when it’s the guy who breaks it off; to the point where you start suspecting that they *consciously* want to be the ones to do the dropping, like “how dare he not let me dump him and then chase me and kiss my ass”. Others are (I think) more innocent and just aren’t used to being dumped or caught more feels than you did and do the “just because just broke up with me doesn’t mean I broke up with you thing”, which goes many degrees from deep sadness without too much drama to actual harassment of the ex-boyfriend. But here too I think women are programmed, whether bio or socially, to try to make sure *they* do dumping, even when they’re not conscious of this and don’t intentionally plan for it.This is spot on, if she does the dump, you will find her all smile and classy and happy by next week (or at least that what she shows to the world, like ''Ha, I made right decision, dumping that chump'') But if she the one who GET DUMPED, then she will be moody for months, even for few years to come (I have seen that) playing the part of the victim, posting broken-heart FB status... So, my men, suck it up and fucking dump her first, if you want to have another go with her down the line.
Blackdragon 2017-07-28 23:17:46
Does “something” include living in Berlin?Is that a joke?
Does one of these methods has higher odds of success than the other?The Returning Hero Method usually has at least slightly higher odds of working in most cases.
Wow, I thought you would never give advise to monogamous guys.I don't... except on how to stop being monogamous.
Well, I guess there is no way to do this without hurting some feelings.Correct.
What could be some “nice” ways to break up?joelsuf had some good ideas. Just be nice and move on. Don't be an asshole, and don't get into a big discussion.
Heh, well in that case, shouldn’t the advice simply be “break up and start over with new women?”, rather than bothering to attempt a conversion? ; pAttempting a conversation is not what I'm suggesting. I'm telling men to simply tell her what you're going to do, and then do it. There is no "conversation." A conversation at that point would just result in drama.
Slightly OT but, this makes me wonder about “normal” A2 relationships. MLTR and OLTRs. They are unlikely to be asking you this question if you’re doing everything right.Incorrect. MLTR's will indeed eventually ask you even if you're doing everything right (it's just that the sooner she asks, the worse job you're doing). An OLTR won't need to ask since she'll already know you're doing it (her having been a former MLTR that was upgraded after The Talk).
Dave 2017-07-29 00:07:17
BD: I have a conservative wife in a traditional monogamous marriage for about 15 years with few small kids. She is not Western woman(we live in US), she never cheats. As a high sex drive men I too want to have sex with many women on side in the way you suggest but OLTR would not work for us. She will never do or allow that. She will also leave me for sure if I do the Talk. Well, this is not what I want and I don't think it will make me (or anybody in my family) more happy. I think it's better to have sex occasionally with FBs , and one night stands discreetly on side without the Talk. What's wrong with this option, why in your model you only include the "Talk" option? with Talk I'll guarantee seperation, which is bad, why I need to seperate? I don't want seperation not because I have oneitis. I want family intact because overall I'm happy in many aspects as life as it is except I need to get laid more. for many logistical reasons seperating will not be better for me. why I can't keep the family intact but have sex on side which will satisfy and make me happier? it's not ideal but less bad than divorce in my opinion. Btw, she may feel it but as long as I don't openly admit, be discreetly do it (no one knows) or make the Talk, and provide the thing she needs (financial, taking care of kids, security, etc) I don't need to be rich, she will stay with me , which I want. I can't see the benefit of ending all good things in my life for the sake of being a bit more free at the expense of destroying more things which actually makes me happy.
AlphaOmega 2017-07-29 03:13:38
BD: I have a conservative wife in a traditional monogamous marriage for about 15 years with few small kids. She is not Western woman(we live in US), she never cheats. As a high sex drive men I too want to have sex with many women on side in the way you suggest but OLTR would not work for us. She will never do or allow that. She will also leave me for sure if I do the Talk. Well, this is not what I want and I don’t think it will make me (or anybody in my family) more happy. I think it’s better to have sex occasionally with FBs , and one night stands discreetly on side without the Talk. What’s wrong with this option, why in your model you only include the “Talk” option? with Talk I’ll guarantee seperation, which is bad, why I need to seperate? I don’t want seperation not because I have oneitis. I want family intact because overall I’m happy in many aspects as life as it is except I need to get laid more. for many logistical reasons seperating will not be better for me. why I can’t keep the family intact but have sex on side which will satisfy and make me happier? it’s not ideal but less bad than divorce in my opinion. Btw, she may feel it but as long as I don’t openly admit, be discreetly do it (no one knows) or make the Talk, and provide the thing she needs (financial, taking care of kids, security, etc) I don’t need to be rich, she will stay with me , which I want. I can’t see the benefit of ending all good things in my life for the sake of being a bit more free at the expense of destroying more things which actually makes me happy.You mean cheating? i.e. doing things without telling, while still officially under the model of monogamy. This is how traditional marriages "worked" in many cases in the past. The man cheated and the woman tolerated it. The question here is how traditional is she in this regard then, in case she would find out?
Blackdragon 2017-07-29 12:20:57
I think it’s better to have sex occasionally with FBs , and one night stands discreetly on side without the Talk. What’s wrong with this option, why in your model you only include the “Talk” option?Because I don't endorse cheating or lying in long-term, serious relationships. Cheating, sneaking around for the rest of your life, terrified your wife might find out, is not only beta, but won't make you long-term happy either. Where's some of what I've written about it in the past: https://blackdragonblog.com/2017/03/06/advocating-serial-monogamy-men/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/03/07/when-men-cheat-they-usually-want-to-get-caught/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2012/02/04/the-huffington-post-on-cheating-and-monogamy/ Cheating is not an option if your objective is long-term consistent happiness as a man. If that isn't your primary goal, then feel free to cheat all you want. Not that I expect any of this will change your mind. You seem pretty terrified she'll leave.
with Talk I’ll guarantee seperationYou don't know that for sure. You're just scared of that possibility. And if you refuse to do it, you have oneitis, as I said in the article.
I don’t want seperation not because I have oneitis. I want family intact because overall I’m happy in many aspects as life as it is except I need to get laid more.That's oneitis. "I CAN'T LET HER LEAVE ME because..." Go read its definition in the glossary.
Btw, she may feel it but as long as I don’t openly admit, be discreetly do it (no one knows) or make the Talk, and provide the thing she needs (financial, taking care of kids, security, etc) I don’t need to be rich, she will stay with meYou seem to think you can read your wife's mind and know the future with 100% accuracy. You can't. You're just making excuses. If she's as adamant as you say about not letting you fuck other women, she'll divorce your ass the instant she catches you cheating on her. And if she doesn't, that proves The Talk would likely have worked, and I was right all along. You can't have it both ways.
simak 2017-07-29 14:06:21
The Berlin comment was a jest to say that here women are open to such conversations and relationships. And also to imply that we did just that. Transformed an LTR into an MLTR. Well, technically we broke up (I broke up) and we restarted the relationship 6 months later as an MLTR.
Dave 2017-07-30 01:17:07
"Cheating is not an option if your objective is long-term consistent happiness as a man. " @BD: Well, cheating and lying are two different things. in your definition cheating is "The act of promising monogamy to someone then getting sexual with someone else without the first person’s permission. ". I am not a catholic and I don't either follow secular Roman rule establishing marriage as monogamous. So, although I'm married I never promised monogamy, and I don't consider having sex with other women bad. So, this doesn't apply to me and men like me, cheating is out of topic here and out of question. I was asked about Talk. In all cases and options here there is cheating, in the sense that you are not only loyal to your wife/GF i.e. you have sex with other women. BTW, You also cheat until your "Talk" by your definition and you mentioned being honest at the beginning offering open relationship never works, and you suggest delaying "Talk" as mush as possible, in other words cheating as long as possible until the Talk, which seems a bit inconsistent and dishonest. If you say you only suggest delaying the Talk and it's not cheating well I think it's cheating for quite some time until it happens and you come to my point. I'm just saying instead of delaying just don't do it. and just do your side thing in discreet manner. As Dr. above link said many do this right and no problems. I completely agree with the Dr. in the link you posted above. I agree with you also that lying is bad. But I disagree cheating(having sex with FBs) is bad given you never promised monogamy at the first place (so you're not a liar). You consider only form of long term happiness for men in OLTR, you encourage openness as much as possible, and completely discard having sex discreetly on side unacceptable for happiness. I partially disagree. Unfortunately, society is not there yet. For younger men, and for some men it may work well but for majority of men especially already in established relationships and older than 40 most likely outcome is separation/divorce drama unhappiness after Talk. Sex although essential/very important for happiness, it's not the only thing and there are many essential other things you have to abandon after Talk which will make you unhappy in long term. I don't think anybody have done experiments including you with a statistically significant large sample to conclude effect of Talk versus having discreet FBs on side for men , but I think one shouldn't discard that option altogether. Not saying and letting her know doesn't mean you're a liar or you're dishonest, if you didn't promise monogamy at the first place. You are just not saying all the truth, which is OK. Do you say all details of your personal life to your Boss at work? of course not. I also almost never talk about work at home. You don't need to give all details of your personal/work life to your employer, to parents, to wife, kids, friends, etc and this will not make you dishonest, liar, or unhappy. in contrary, in many cases, it's the way to go in this society. when the society evolves to something different this may change of course. I didn't read your book yet in OLTR, I'll read it, but my opinion on Talk probably will not change.
hey hey 2017-07-30 14:48:16
@Dave: You didn't promise monogamy? Yeah I'm sure your wife married you under the impression that you were fucking other women. Dude you are cheating and you are outright pussy. Pussy because you are hiding from your wife like a thief and scared that she might catch you( and she will eventually). I'm sure you are happy. And I'm sure you will be extra happy when your wife catches you. The difference with this model is that we are leading women and giving them clues that we ARE fucking other women. When the time of the Talk comes the surprise is not that big for them because we tell them what they have been suspecting all along and they will likely come back to us with this without any doubt. Im sure a woman will never marry you if she knows you are fucking other women constantly and you are not open with this. So I'm sure your wife married you under the impression that you were monogamous because you were at the time. If you cheated on her after the marriage because that's what you did and you decided to excuse that with "ohh I never said that I will be monogamous to her" that's the most pathetic thing a man can do. That's avoiding your own mess.
hey hey 2017-07-30 15:11:00
And don't tell me you were fucking other women constantly before the marriage because a woman smells that only by your attitude. If you were fucking other women constantly you wouldn't tolerate her BS that much to reach the marriage phase. And she wouldn't stand your rampant attitude long without pressing you HARD to tell her what's going on. Especially long before even considering a marriage with you.
Blackdragon 2017-07-30 17:42:54
Dave, your comment is so wacko that I don't think we can have a rational discussion, so will be my last response to you here. 1. You did somehow promise sexual monogamy when you married your wife, at some point, even if you didn't raise your right hand and say the specific words "I promise to not fuck other women." 2. If you never promised monogamy to her (and I know you did, but just for argument's sake), why would she refuse to let you fuck other women if you asked? (I don't want an answer; I'm just demonstrating how silly you're being.) 3. I don't "cheat" on women pre-Talk because I never promise sexual monogamy to them in any way whatsoever, verbally or through my EFA or actions. Indeed, my entire EFA from the very first minute of the first date is that I'm a player (albeit a "safer" one, my 85/15 model). 4. Calling my system dishonest when you want to cheat on your traditional monogamous wife behind her back is stupid to say the least. 5. We're not talking about "society." We're talking about YOU and YOUR marriage to YOUR wife. Changing the subject to "society" isn't going to work here, sorry. 6. Feel free to lie and cheat on your wife all you want; you've already made up your mind about this and I'm certainly not going to stop you. As you're spending the rest of your life, spending all this time, emotion, energy, and money hiding all this activity from her and when she finds out you've cheated on her and she explodes at you, remember my words about cheating and long-term masculine happiness. Good luck.
Dave 2017-07-31 00:04:19
@ BD my goal here is to learn, I just found Talk too risky that's why I asked Q about it. 1) as you said in 3, I also never promised as you do. I don't see any difference. 2) she might thought that way because of definition/ understanding of marriage in society as you said. but as in your 3 i never said.but isn't this similar to what you said in 3, when you start a relationship you don't give Talk right away and make all clear what you think or how you live in detail, other wise they will not continue with you as you said, it doesn't work you said. 3) All I said was by definition we all cheat and we have to accept that in the sense that we have sex with other women and we never are loyal to one,( which is not a bad thing by itself, men is not created to loyal to one women). you say if you give Talk you are honest and what you do is good and Ok, if you never give Talk you are bad, and looser, and all bad other stuff. I agree with you this is not ideal and as i said above "less bad", but Talk may cause more drama by seperation, divorce and all that and i also I don't have a lots of woman already in my life as you do. I am also happy providing to my wife and kids which makes me happy. 4) i don't say your system dishonest. i found your blog and books very helpful and useful that's why i'm here. but I just still can't understand the Talk part which may lead one to leave alone . it has benefits but you also loose many things. 6) you are the one who is saying dishonest, bad, .. etc to whom doesn't give Talk to make all open. I am saying we are in a similar situation ( you before Talk) and I if I do it on side without Talk. I am not in action state yet, I am more of a thinker before take life changing actions and this is important one. I just thought keeping it discreet may be less bad option than making all clear and open. I like to take less risky options first. and i care about she stays with me in the rest of life. not something i want take risk on. I'll read your book learn more and may be discuss with you more on this later.
daniel 2017-07-31 20:47:07
You misunderstood both of my questions but that's ok, the first one got answered anyway. I'd like to clarify this one though. Since you said it's not necessary to leave evidence for a monogamous woman you are converting, since she is definitely going to be asking directly. I'm wondering if there is any time limit on it. At some point she _will_ stop asking. With a long-standing, Talk surviving woman, who doesn't ask anymore, is it necessary to continue to remind her? Perhaps I'm being too soft but I know the arrangement really bothers some women (although they don't complain directly) and sometimes when I'm cleaning up, I find myself inclined to totally clean up all evidence of other women before she comes over, just because I feel a bit bad about rubbing it in her face. Again, I'm talking about long-standing Talk survivors here.
Blackdragon 2017-08-01 10:30:56
I’m wondering if there is any time limit on it. At some point she _will_ stop asking.That depends on the woman. Higher-drama, higher-emotion, or higher-jealousy women will indeed ask you forever (sadly). Others won't.
With a long-standing, Talk surviving woman, who doesn’t ask anymore, is it necessary to continue to remind her?Again, you don't need to verbally "remind her" either way. Just answer her if she asks. If she doesn't ask, don't bring it up.
Perhaps I’m being too soft but I know the arrangement really bothers some women (although they don’t complain directly) and sometimes when I’m cleaning up, I find myself inclined to totally clean up all evidence of other women before she comes over, just because I feel a bit bad about rubbing it in her face. Again, I’m talking about long-standing Talk survivors here.Ah, I see what you mean. No, you don't have to keep leaving evidence for long-term Talk survivors. The Talk is done, she knows you're playing around, no more reinforcement is needed.
Eugene 2017-08-02 15:42:54
lol @Dave 1) as you said in 3, I also never promised as you do. I don’t see any difference. I can't help myself 🙂 Are you really comparing dating and seeing a women once a week for a few weeks or few months, never talking about a "relationship" in any way, and never labeling each other as boyfriend/girlfriend... and sleeping with other women at the same time. The same as getting MARRIED to a women, and sleeping other women during the marriage? Both are the same in your mind? Really?
Dave 2017-08-02 23:27:47
@ Eugene Yes, I don't see any difference. Because of SP you give so much weight on word "marriage". You brain is so conditioned that you cannot see it doesn't matter if you do things and actions under your so called marriage institution or out it doesn't make much of a difference. Btw, there are 100s of meaning of "marriage" in 100s of different cultures. because of your SP you take west,roman catholic version and meaning as unique and only one,and see other versions and views funny, that's why. In my definition, if you have consensual sex with a woman that's a form of marriage. it doesn't matter you signed a piece of paper or not, did a ceremony or not, have your govt approved or know about it or not, and did many other rituals or not and all else. you should take responsibility of having sex with that woman and all ethical and other values mostly apply. actually, some western govt started considering this (union) like marriage in legal sense with rights and responsibilities if you continue having sex together some time although formally you're not married
Zelek Uther 2017-08-07 14:20:41
@Dave: the only thing that matters is your wife's understanding of your relationship. If you have clearly communicated to her that your relationship is non-monogamous and she has agreed to that, then you are good to go. If she believes you are monogamous, you'll be in for a world of pain when she discovers that you are cheating.
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Curtis 2017-08-16 18:46:36
Black dragon, I'm not sure I understand #3? Are you saying to let her know or make it obvious that I'm screwing someone new within a week of doing this? Should she be allowed to view my text messages with these FBs? And finally, I'm thinking about doing this approach because my mono OLTR is giving me drama over threesomes that SHE wanted to do and now is saying she did it "for me". So, I'm thinking about telling her, hey let's go non exclusive then so I can take care of my needs since she won't. Any experience w using it when they use control of certain sexual things they change their minds on? I love her VERY much and she is in the group that is 38 and craves my cock like 3 x per day. Dead serious. I kinda worry she might commit suicide actually or something bad to herself. She told.me other day, she loves me more than her own kids!! But I am a little pissed she tells all her friends and family that I want her to have a threesomes and she doesn't tell them that she told me that SHE wants too as well and is bi curious!! WTF? So they all tell her to break up w me of course lol. Women do silly shit lol. My hutch is that when I tell her that I am not strong enough to overcome temptation and that I still want to date "fun women" more since I'm only 42 that she might be upset that I no longer see her as "fun" and decide to stay or eventually come back. I know it's very possible she wont too.... Your thoughts?
Gil Galad 2017-08-17 06:00:46
my mono OLTRThe O in OLTR means open, so there's no such thing as a mono OLTR
drama over threesomes that SHE wanted to do and now is saying she did it “for me”.and
I am a little pissed she tells all her friends and family that I want her to have a threesomes and she doesn’t tell them that she told me that SHE wants too as well and is bi curious!! WTF?This is one of those things that women do where you shouldn't agonize over the exact why of it. I don't know if there are tactics to mitigate this.
I kinda worry she might commit suicideShe won't, unless she's crazy/an especially fragilized person, in which case this isn't my area at all. Otherwise, she won't. Women are very good at using the suicide scare on their men (even by nonverbally conveying that they might do it) and you should disregard this, unless, again, she's decidedly a very unstable person. Just open your relationship with her. Don't "ask", TELL her that you're gonna start sleeping with other women, and don't back down if she threatens to dump you.
Curtis 2017-08-17 11:35:58
Update: So she has agreed to be non-mono with some kicking and screaming and even is ok staying engaged for now because she loves me and thinks I'm her soul mate. She said but she's gonna go sleep w another man tonight then since I don't care anymore and I can go do the same. She has agreed to BDs rules on keeping them FB or just one night stands etc. She also told me she hates god now and that all men are dogs since I won't agree to only have sex with her. So, overall, it sounds like a I have successfully converted her to my 1st non mono Fiance and I am in total shock that I got this far!! And it hasnt sunk in yet that I am FREE to have sex w other women now too!! OMG lol
Gil Galad 2017-08-17 12:26:28
Now that was fast, lol. Just make sure you do get laid within a month and preferably much much sooner.
Curtis 2017-08-17 15:53:52
I don't want to screw this up so here are some questions maybe guys can help me with: 1). If she asks me if I screwed anybody yet, what is some good and gentle replies that you use? Or do I just ignore the question? 2) when u have a date w a FB, how do you inform your main chic of this? Do you say "...I have plans..." and she figures it out basically? 3) I'm pretty sure she is gonna test me and make it obvious that she fucked another man (with a bigger dick lol) or something to provoke me, so when she does this, what are some good responses? My instinct is to laugh and shrug it off. But then again it seems like I should be firm and CALM w her and explain that she is not abiding by the rules and that is very rude and childish to be dangling that in my face just to make me jealous. Basically, how do I respond and my actions when SHE breaks the rules of our 1st attempt at a serious long-term non exclusive relationship. Thanks so much guys!
Gil Galad 2017-08-17 16:13:35
1) Not her business. Don't respond, or laugh it off, or say "yep, I had a foursome just this afternoon", whatever. What matters is that you do get laid, because if you don't, she'll "smell" it and you'll be fucked. 2) You don't inform her at all; you've informed her of what you're going to be doing in general, she's not entitled to a sex diary, lol. Say you're going out. It doesn't matter what she figures out or doesn't figure out. If she gets you to verbalize it, you're in for a lot of drama regardless of what you've "agreed on". 3) "Good for you", "lol", "you need to try harder than this", doesn't matter much as long your tone and body language aren't telegraphing neediness, bitterness, passive-aggressiveness, etc.
it seems like I should be firm and CALM w her and explain that she is not abiding by the rules and that is very rude and childish to be dangling that in my face just to make me jealousNo, don't do that, at all. It won't work. Shit testing is designed to make you react like this and it's basically self-perpetuating. Be the guy who's too busy having an awesome life to bother; "aw, my girl is doing that thing again, how cute" is the mental attitude you should have, not "WTF? why is she doing this again ? how can I make her change ? how can I educate her ? man I'm sick of this!" which leads nowhere.
Curtis 2017-08-17 21:55:35
Thanks Gil! I'm following now... OK, so let's switch focus now to the FBs for a second. 1) do you tell them your last name? Because if I do too soon they can find me on Facebook and see that I'm in a relationship lol. Gosh I hate Facebook sometimes lol. What are ways around this? Many women won't talk to a guy unless they can see Facebook page or look us up on states legal website for divorce crap to see if I am married or a criminal etc. 2) do you ever just tell them - "hey my lady and I are free to date around a lil bit so wanna hang out sometime?". Lol. It gets to the point I suppose.... This becomes even trickier if we become engaged or a modern marriage and have a ring on our finger eventually! So, just some guidance on do I try to be gray or vauge or just put it all out there and 100% transparent?
Gil Galad 2017-08-18 07:20:55
I don't see a problem with telling your FBs your last name. I think BD said his "relationship status" on facebook is and will always be blank. You can also control the parameters of who can see your status and who can't. I guess it's less drama to keep it private or blank. Don't talk to your FBs about "your lady" unless you've naturally reached that level of familiarity, not early on. They've got to have clearly understood that they're an FB and that it's not likely to change (which ideally should be "guessed" by the girl, not verbalized, but thankfully they're good at this, if your frame is not boyfriendish), then you can reach the point where the "F" in FB can mean "friend" (with benefits), and friends do talk about the people they're banging. I suggest you read BD's article about "The difference between lying, deception, and disclosure". IIRC, it explains how you can be truthful without all the drama of a 100% transparent person who foolishly verbalizes everything. More generally, I think that binge-reading the blog (especially the early articles, 2011-2014) will answer most of your questions. That's what I did last year. Admittedly just buying his main books will save you time because everything is compressed.
Angelos 2018-08-03 02:14:47
there's a problem. When she appears to be present in places where you have fun and you plan not to see her. Then your plan is off.......
Tomi 2018-11-12 13:10:15
This great stuff BD, I was in a monogamous relationship but just had to get out of it. Too much drama, not enough sex. When I dumped my Ex she wanted to stay friends but I did no contact and refused to be in the friend zone. 6 months have passed and I currently have 2 FBs but I'm considering adding my ex back into the rotation. So I hit her up but she apparently has a new boyfriend that is long distance. They met about a month ago and I'm not sure how to proceed.
Carlos 2020-07-19 22:35:50
I was looking for an answer to this question. I'm in a situation where I am in a new country, (Germany) moved with her and it's country to comes from. I'm also not working, just started my business and now the drama happened, and so I am not yet in income level to even rent a new place. I have options, go back to where I came from, stay at my brothers or sisters place or go homeless in this country. Both I don't mind making an option. Right now, she cried, she left to her relatives and staying there for a week. One of her relatives came to talk to me. A guy, who tried to tell me "oh you know, I'm married and way I handled it," and I cut him off, and just said, "none of your business and I know what you're going to say. That I should compromise, just so I keep the relationship going, which you did over and over again and I have seen you unhappy since I moved near your area. So best not advise me as I am not you and I don't care what you got to say." He walked off in a huff. Beta's. Love to be some white knight. So we're going to have that talk when she comes back, she already knows I am going to have sex with women, it's not her decision but I did say what you wrote here. If she dumps me, fine. Will fly back and what I can. The electronic stuff and some clothes. We've been together for a long time, years and she does love me, very and sex, well, she cums and is addicted to sex with me. The drama was HUGE! Moment I said it, it was HUGE. Holy shit! I said the words you said. I did step 1 and A to E, and now I am going to fly back to where I came from, and have sex with women. I am so set, truly set, to be free from all this Monogamous. I'me done with it. 100% done with it. I have had enough of the BS that comes with it. If I have to start all over again, where we do break up, done, then fine. The great thing is, I've tasted hard times before, homeless too, so the hardship if any comes from it, doesn't scare me. What does, is compromising my freedom and having someone else dictating to me, telling me how to live my life, who to have sex with, who to not have sex with, when to have sex. Telling me how I as an adult, a grown man to live my life. I'm ready for worse. It ends, it ends but I have a big feeling because we got a history together, because she does love me, very attracted to me and even seen the hot women who are gunning for me, which blew her mind even more lol, that when I leave, she will think about the sex so bad, and a month or sooner, probably after she dated some beta guy, she'd run back. I'm not banking on that right now. I'm thinking far more now about my freedom and living a non-monogamous life. I'm done with mistake I made making it into monogamy. You'r right, it is my fault as a man 100% and I am now correcting this mistake no matter what comes at me. I am going to correct this mistake once and for all. Thanks for your detailed blog post. It gave me a lot of courage, strength and knowledge.