06 Jan Online Dating – What’s Working Right Now: Part 1
This will be the first of a new series of articles where I showcase actual, real-world online dating techniques that are working right now. I think it will be really helpful to everyone.
-By Caleb Jones
First off, we’ll do something a little different. This will be fun.
Sometime in late 2020 I will update my online dating book The Ultimate Online Dating Manual with new aspects of online dating that have changed in the last three years or so. All of the core techniques in that book still work and are unchanged (I get your success stories regularly in my email), but many of the details regarding specific apps and sites have changed.
That will be a little while from now and I’d rather give you guys some actionable information today regarding online dating. Since online dating has not been a personal focus for me lately, here’s what we’ll do…
In the comments below, let me know if you meet all four of the following criteria:
- You have had sex with at least three new women in the last five months.
- At least two of these women you consider at least cute. (Refer to this scale for specifically what “cute” means if you are unsure.) If you had sex with more than three new women, more than 50% of them you consider cute or hot.
- You met these women using an online dating app or online dating site.
- The online dating site or app was not a sugar daddy site/app. It was a “normal” online dating site/app. (There is nothing wrong with sugar daddy game under certain conditions but it’s different than standard online dating, which is what we’re discussing today.)
If you meet all four of those criteria, please leave a comment below and give us this information:
- The specific apps/sites you used
- The basics of what you did
- The city where you live
You don’t have to go into great detail unless you want to (and if you want to, please do).
Other commenters can ask questions and vote on the best comments from men who have met those four criteria and have told their stories.
After we get enough comments in this thread, I will showcase the best comment (or comments) with their own articles, assuming the writers of these comments would like to assist (which is purely optional). Those of you with particularly impressive comments about your recent online dating success will probably be asked by me to use as case studies, advisors, and perhaps even co-writers for my next online dating book (for which you will be paid in some form or fashion).
So now the ball is in your court. Leave a comment regarding your recent online dating successes. If you’re not comfortable leaving a comment (just do it; it’s completely anonymous and this site is SSL secured) then feel free to send me an email here instead with your stories and advice.
For the rest of you, please vote for what you consider are the best comments regarding online dating case studies in this thread, and I’ll take those into account as well in selecting the best ones to showcase with their own full blog article.
More on this coming very soon.
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Leave your comment below, but be sure to follow the Five Simple Rules.
Tim Garrison
Posted at 07:12 am, 6th January 2020http://Great idea BD – getting your readers to write about their online dating experiences. Only those that have had success , duly noted. Personally I don’t know any guy that has any success on online dating , including myself. I’m 64 but I know lots of young guys in their 20s & 30s. Online dating dating apps seem to be a huge time consuming waste of time. Or at the very least for 80% of men. I’m still wrestling with online dating trying to make a go of it. I’ve noticed it’s very time-consuming. Is online dating worth it , BD ?
Sam
Posted at 07:33 am, 6th January 20206 women in last 5 months from online dating apps.
The specific apps/sites you used – OkCupid, Tinder, Bumble & Hinge
The basics of what you did – Swipe around 25 women in each of these apps every other day. Only swipe women that are cute/hot as per my standards. I have a profile that matches my personality as a 34 year old, good looking man who has his shit together. And great pictures. Get her off the app after 6-7 exchanges. Create an outcome independent, sexual, fun vibe over texts on Whatsapp and meet her on first date. Very high demonstrations of OI, sex talk and fun conversation on first date. If she makes it explicit that she is in it for no strings attached fun and preferably something short term, I take her private very quick. Some women in this category meet up with you in private if they make it clear over texts, no public date needed in this case. Others – meet for a quick second date(20 minutes) and take her somewhere private. No LMR whatsoever because of strong EFA, sexual frame & outcome independence created over the first date and sexting after. Categorize them as FBs or low end MLTRs based on her personality, attractiveness & sex.
The city where you live – Bangalore, India
POB
Posted at 07:45 am, 6th January 2020The specific apps/sites you used
Tinder and Bumble
The basics of what you did
I’m a 40 year old who looks 12 years younger, tall and muscular. I don’t lie about my age. I just put great pics that show my personality and stick to my usual script when texting.
From Bumble I had great success last year. I even got a 18 year old who fucked me right on the second date, plus one of the hottest 40yo ever who’s now a very serious MLTR.
On tinder I payed for their “gold” plan three times last year. IMO it saves a lot of time to get to 10-20 matches fast and work with them for a couple of hours (that “boost” thing works!). I used that feature when I traveled and recently between xmas and the new years.
This last mini-blitz got me a 27 year old brunette who I met at night on the beach. We took a quick walk on the sand, talked for some minutes on the boardwalk and went straight to my place. She slept over because it was late. Next day I met a hot 34yo blonde at the beach (we scheduled via tinder). We walked on the sand for a bit, then seated on a coconut stand to relax and talk. Took her to my place, we did some fooling inside the pool, got her inside the condo and we fucked for some hours. Both were same day lays.
The city where you live
São Paulo, Brazil.
Anchorman
Posted at 09:33 am, 6th January 2020Bumble & Tinder. Vancouver, BC.
Bumble is great because as soon as she initiates contact, you have her. She is totally in at that point and all you have to do is not fuck up.
Tinder is a different animal. In general, the women on Tinder are more flaky. However, I have pulled several from there, many of them much younger than me. I will probably try a Tinder Gold membership at some point this year as an experiment.
By far, the biggest challenge with online dating that I have found is the meet up part. The problem is that many of the women are not nearly as attractive in real life as their photos. This is usually because they use filters, don’t post full body shots, or post pics that are years old. Due to this, I don’t initiate on any profile unless there’s a full body shot or if I can tell the pics are filtered. I am also screening more and not pushing the meet up right away unless I know for sure, based on the quality and number of photos, that she’s going to be hot.
On Bumble, I post my real age (55) and am able to attract the 40+ crowd. Let me tell you that there are plenty of very hot, fit, and sexy women in this demo.
On Tinder, I post my age as younger, using the same current pictures, and am able to attract the 29+ crowd. Within the first few texts I deal with the age issue and it has never been a roadblock to meeting up.
In the past I have been successful with Match, POF, and OKCupid.
Match: Mostly gold diggers and less sexual women. The app is decent, but you have to pay to be effective.
POF: Extremely low quality women. You have to view hundreds of profiles before finding anything worthwhile. Decent app.
OKCupid: meh, low quality and a shitty app.
I just started exploring the Facebook dating app within the last two days and so far it’s looking promising. I can follow up with a report in a few weeks.
Last year was an extremely busy year for me professionally so I purposely did not pursue women very hard, but I still managed to have sex with several new and exciting women, some of whom are now securely in my stable. 2020 is a year that I will be making up for lost time.
As for my game, I follow the BD system very closely. I drank the coolaid and it works.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:08 am, 6th January 2020If you’re over 60 and you want women under age 50, forget normal online dating and do sugar daddy game instead. NOTE: That advice is only for men over 60! If you’re under age 60 learn to get laid the normal way before you tackle pay-for-it game, please.
Notice he said around 25 women per day instead of hundreds of women in one sitting like a lot of guys recommend. If you do that the apps usually end up shadowbanning you.
Even in sexually dysfunctional, high-ASD India. Well done.
Yes. Always, always pay for whatever boost features the apps offer. These used to be optional. Now they’re mandatory.
A very common observation from many men. And I agree.
Yup; as I’ve said in the past. (Though it can be workable if you’re willing to navigate all that bullshit.)
Slipbolt
Posted at 12:50 pm, 6th January 2020@ Tim Garrison
I am 65 this year. SD/SB is the only way to go at this age if you still want sex and get to it fast. I have been single for 5 years and been playing the sugar game for 4 years. SBs from 19 to 39 ( never had one over 40 ) and all hot. Yes, you need a budget but I gave my ex wife a monthly allowance for her make up, luxuries , car etc. With all due respect to Caleb, he is a young dude in late forties, lol, and as far as I have read, not a whole lot experience in SD/SB. I, on the other hand, do have 4 years experience. And I have been writing down my experiences . Many of the strategies and processes from Get To Sex Fast are still applicable. I am considering using that experience to provide info to guys from the age group late fifties up. Maybe in the form of a blog or manual. ( An additional income generator ? ) Work in Progress while can remember it all, lol.
Ken
Posted at 12:58 pm, 6th January 2020Looks like most commentators have done this already anyway, but I think the commentator’s age and the age of the women they’re having success with should be considered as an essential part of the posted information.
Keith
Posted at 01:11 pm, 6th January 2020The specific apps/sites you used
Tinder and Bumble
The basics of what you did
I’m 49 and look slightly younger although I’m very fit. I don’t ever try to hide the fact of my age mostly because women below 30 don’t much interest me. This last year without too much effort I slept with 13 new women not including a few more long term fb’s. I also had 3 threesomes with almost zero effort. I have been using the same photos for a few years. One of me in a blazer in a relaxed scene, two of me on the water on a paddleboard and one of me hiking. I’ve found for my target of 36-50 women these work very well. I put a photo up of me surfing and noticed hits went way down. Most women over 35 seem to be put off by a guy my age who might be TOO physically active.
First dates were dinners years ago until I bought your ebooks (thanks!), then coffee and now 90%+ are just going for a walk in my small city. All first dates this year were going walking on a nearby track or short hikes on nearby trails. Second dates were always at my apartment and every single time this year we had sex. I have a fairly set script for 2nd dates that varies physical affection and pulling back for talking that seems to work very well and honestly over time seems even better. This might be due to the age creeping up of the women I meet. Not sure. I never push for sex and absolutely never kiss on first dates. Some from your advice but mainly because I like a long term connection also and sex on the first date tends to ruin that in my experience.
I agree with the other comments below mostly with regard to Bumble and Tinder. If she texts on Bumble you are 100% in. It’s yours to lose at that point. Tinder is more hit and miss but I find being bold and proposing to meet without too much texting works very well. Number one complaint from women on dating apps that I’ve talked to: “Men won’t ask to meet. They just text forever.” Be different.
The city where you live
Smallish city, Central Georgia, USA
Anchorman
Posted at 01:19 pm, 6th January 2020You have 10 years on me, but I tried a SB site for one month last year as an experiment and I was very pleasantly surprised with the good results. I ended up closing on two very hot girls at no cost other than the meet up at a bar or lounge. I stopped using the site because I didn’t want to pay for it anymore (and don’t need to). However, I would have no reservations about using it again. SD game is an art form and it gives us older gents easy access to girls who are younger and more sexually available than we would normally see on other sites.
Old Mountian Bear
Posted at 01:41 pm, 6th January 20201. Last five months eleven new women
2. Cute or higher using BD scale.
3. All from swipe to sex using phone apps
4. Bumble and Tinder only
Personal Basics:
I am early 50’s in age.
I am tall (over six feet), have all my hair and light color eyes.
I am from an “exotic” European ethnic group.
I have been married, had children, now divorced, dating almost eight years now.
I am heterosexual only, I do not find men arousing at all. For me dating and sex is obviously only women.
I fit the “traveling businessman/salesman” meme, consulting and sales background. I am a “creative” professionally (musician, artist, photographer, acting type creative).
Fitness “gym rat” I have gone from obese to fit about seven years ago and I am in the top ten percent of men in the US for fitness regardless of age. I work hard on nutrition and exercise with lots of hard workouts weekly.
I have a “primary” in polyamory terms that is actually happy that I run a harem. I keep a harem of women, at least one in all of the main locations I travel. The “girl in every port” meme. I have a core set of MLTRs in six of my main travel locations. One large east coast city I have an MLTR and three FBs and continue to date in all my locations.
I limit my relationships, my heavy travel schedule does mean that I am limited to MLTRs and FBs. I was married and have children that are now all adults. I was married for over two decades, I will never live with an other woman or ever get married in any capacity, I paid my dues to the marriage and social grinding machine. I will not and will never have the need for “settling down” I was stupid and did what BD recommends in reverse, I married young, turned into a beta slave. In effect I feel like I was a prisoner that was released, my life is far better now.
I am very heavy “thrill of the hunt” and super high sexual desire. I am to some extend addicted to seduction and have to force myself to not hunt as my default. I am happiest with sex once or more each day with a regular mix of heavy variety and hunting.
I will take “One Night Stands” but prefer to add girls to rotation to keep the harem travel circle high in numbers.
I will without question recognize that “on-line” is only a sorting action, this is not “on-line dating” it is on-line “filtering” once you meet it is all game!
Anyone saying that on-line does not require “real life game” is a total idiot!
You have to meet, have to use game to get to sex. On-line only filters and makes the work face-to-face more likely to have positive results.
Most of my dates/meetings are from apps, I have some unusual “social circles” that I use for sexual play and variety often with my MLTRs.
A. Apps used:
Bumble, over half, best in US, England, Germany, when and where it does work the “unintended consequence” of ” feminist/girl choice” is a complete “lock-in”.
Tinder, a bit less than half , US, Europe and Middle East, the only choice in the Middle East and Asia.
B. Basic actions:
I have my real age on both apps, I find that my age is actually to my advantage even with younger women. I have the most and best results with women 30-50 in age.
I date from mid 20’s to a bit older than myself. Women over 40 must be “fitness” or “sexpot” types or I don’t bother. Younger women I pick based on how much I think they will arouse me sexually. I prefer the “artist, nerd,/kinky” type if they are under 30.
Long term “subscriptions” to Bumble and Tinder, lowest price for the most unlocked features, the “super premium” levels are not worth the price.
I credit the vast success I have had post-divorce to fitness and learning game. I have found “fitness type” women are a bit cliquish, but if you are fit you are in the “in” club. I have an overall preference for high sex drive “fitness” type women, thin with some muscle tone.
I pick out of the “hidden profiles” the women that have “swiped me first” as can be seen with the paid features. I chose from the best that “swipe” my profile first as a filtering action, it skips a few “steps” with this bunch.
I “pipeline” heavy with Tinder, using the “travel” feature for a big city I am scheduled to travel for contracts.
I swipe heavy “left” any indication of problem or just not “notch above boner” level and I reject.
I also “un-match” when a girl shows signs of being bitchy “difficult” or “provider hunter”.
I swipe heavy “right” to cute and above if there is any indication of BDSM or polyamory/married and “looking for a play-partner” (see below).
My swipe to match is about 150-200 to one. I swipe 10-20 at one sitting, when traveling I will log on three or four times a day check matches and messages and swipe a few.
I push for a “coffee chat” super early, I empty my matches if they do not reply in two-three days. I will not “chat on-line” for more than two days I move to text/phone/whatsapp at that point. I have pushed for a coffee date within an hour many times and have many times have moved to my hotel or her house for sex within hours.
Tinder to the “first level” lets me “hide my distance” (or age) and to “travel” to match in other cities. This is key if you travel.
Mix of professional and “action shots” I work with professional photographers and many are friends so I have over fifty great shots I can rotate into the profile and I constantly update the profile with the best shots staying in rotation and I add new shots.
I fill the “about me” section with creative and romantic/poetic/historical content. Quite complicated and full of “code words” indicating that I have lots of experience with BDSM as a “Dom/Top” and polyamory. I now have seven years integrating BDSM and polyamory into my sex life. I have partners that enjoy both BDSM and swinging. I have a large social circle of friends-couples that are close good friends BDSM/Swing and enjoy “play” at clubs and private parties. I am strictly heterosexual in all sex-play and a total “sexual freak” and enjoy that aspect of sexuality particularly BDSM play.
I am “prudish” about what I send to a woman until AFTER I have had sex with her, almost always at least twice, at that point “dick pics” are not negative. Otherwise that dick pic is the kiss of death.
Sugar babies and provider hunters are a no-go for me, I actually enjoy the hunt/seduction and gold digger aspects of female nature just disgust me personally. I have engaged in the odd “revenge or hate fuck” here and there with feminists and married women (both directions).
C. Locations:
For me this is complicated I have a multi country and multi state route I travel professionally.
Pipelining is important when traveling.
Big cities on the east coast of the US and Southern California are the heaviest in action. Smaller cities are often “hot lonely cat lady” type action and heavy ONS with married women.
Outside of England and Germany Bumble is almost useless, but it is growing there. Bumble in the US gives me the best “high quality” results Tinder in the US is a mixed bag, still heavy skewed to ONS.
B
Posted at 01:41 pm, 6th January 2020I use Hinge, Tinder, and Bumble, all paid subscriptions.
I followed the BD dating system, though a few of the women I took home on the first date. Swipe, message, first date at bar, second date at my house.
I live in the North Bay, California (Petaluma-ish)
I’m 34…
Woman 1 – 26, Bumble, redhead that turned out to be a lovely MLTR, one of my all-time favorites. Sex on the first date. LSNFTE’d me after about 4 months though.
Woman 2 – 28, Bumble, cute hippy chick that’s great in bed. Still seeing her.
Woman 3 – 35, Bumble, another redhead. Fantastic FB, always gave me great massages and was always happy. Got uncomfortable being an FB and took off after a condom broke and we had to have the STD talk.
Woman 4 – 27, Tinder, super hot stoner girl with a long distance boyfriend. Still seeing her.
Woman 5 – 30, Bumble, cute but the worst in bed, one of my few ONS.
Woman 6 – 35, Bumble, tiny dominatrix that was seriously amazing in bed. We were incompatible due to us both being dominant so it was only a few hookups sadly.
Woman 7 – 28, Tinder, hot tall chick in an open relationship. Sex on the first date. Great FB until she flaked on me too many times and I nexted her.
Woman 8 – 24, Tinder, tiny with nipple piercings. Sex on the first date. My current favorite MLTR.
Woman 9 – 29, Hinge, outdoorsy chick that turned out not as hot as I had anticipated. ONS
Woman 10 – 30, Hinge, hot blonde. Current FB.
Woman 11 – 29, Hinge, hottest doctor ever. Current MLTR.
Greg
Posted at 03:16 pm, 6th January 2020I also like fit women who aged 35 and over, but the problem is, the large majority in Australia aren’t. They’re mostly all overweight and for those who are fit, most don’t have big enough tits that I like, as they’re too small. Plus some women have weird genetics and metabolism are way too skinny, so of course they’re not sexually attractive to me. I like women who are in the middle ground, who aren’t too overly skinny, but aren’t overweight because they don’t exercise.
Greg
Posted at 03:17 pm, 6th January 2020I also like fit women who aged 35 and over, but the problem is, the large majority in Australia aren’t. They’re mostly all overweight and for those who are fit, most don’t have big enough tits that I like, as they’re too small. Plus some women have weird genetics and are way too skinny, so of course they’re not sexually attractive to me. I like women who are in the middle ground, who aren’t too overly skinny, but aren’t overweight because they don’t exercise.
G
Posted at 07:13 pm, 6th January 2020The specific apps/sites you used : tinder/bumble/hinge
The basics of what you did: multiple swipes simultaneously using laptop and phone. copy and paste opener of “hi, fancy a drink?”, 2nd message of “whatsapp?”. If response with “wow you move fast” or similar, respond with “is that a problem?” most times the answer is no so back to “whatsapp”. Any time wasters delete, they’re often more approachable when they come back round (declined swipes often re-emerge!)
The city where you live : London
Fanguy
Posted at 07:43 pm, 6th January 2020I don’t think i can do sugar daddy game lol. I am not an old guy but the concept of paying money to get sex and affection is a turn off for me. The girl loves the money, not you.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 08:47 pm, 6th January 2020Wow, some really good case studies here. Good job guys.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 08:48 pm, 6th January 2020I have considered writing a separate manual strictly for sugar daddy game aimed only at high-income men over age 50 or so. I’m not sure how much demand I would have for such a thing from my existing audience, which tends to skew a little younger (under age 35). But I’m still considering it.
It’s not the number one complaint but I have heard plenty of women say this to me too, yes.
It’s simply amazing how shitty men are at this.
That’s why it doesn’t apply to you.
The older men doing this aren’t talking about love. They’re talking about sex. And from FBs, not MLTRs or an OLTR.
TT
Posted at 12:51 am, 7th January 202029 years old. Norway.
Apps: Tinder, Bumble, Hinge and Happn
New lays the last 5 months: 5 (Currently seeing 3 of them still)
I have most success with Happn here in Norway. Tinder seems to be dying out here. But in total for the last 24 months (As in the low 50s laycount, ive had most lays from tinder)
Ive experimented with both doing the first date at a bar, and inviting them straight over to my place for the first date. Both seems to work fine. My current issue is that i have too many girls (FBs and MLTRS) Im currently sleeping with 5 girls, 2 of whom is fb and 3 wich i see very regularly. They range from lawyers, teachers, nurses and doctors. I am currently a teacher, so funny enough most girls i meet has a higher degree and make more money than me. Im mostly atracted and go better along with smart girls tough. No fat chicks, ever.
Age range: 22 – 32, age for me is no big thing, its more important that they are fun, smart and have a bubbly happy personality – and that they make me feel desired in bed ofc.
If i were to offer some tips from my experience over the last 2 years:
I dont hunt girls on the apps, if they show little interest, im done.
Girls who shows interest: Just go for the kill.
First dates at home is fun, relaxing and leads to sex OFTEN. Make some food, have her bring some wine.
First dates at a bar is fine if you are unsure about their looks.
Women at 30+ can have the most AMAZING bodies, two of the girls i see now is 32, and ive never seen better bodies.
I dont have too many friends, so ive used dating as a means to both sex and have some social interaction (Sounds sad, but im fine with it) The relationships with these girls has lasted from 3 months to 1.5 years. My goal was to have 2 mltr + 1 fb, but i went overboard with the dating the last 6 months. I might have become a validation whore at this point, seeing 3-5 girls every week, wich is obv too much for the long run.
I would love to talk to you more about dating and onlinegame BD, hit me up if ur interested.
POB
Posted at 02:59 am, 7th January 2020Agreed, but a quick caveat here. I have my doubts if Bumble needs to be paid over here. I never paid for it and always got amazing results. Plus it’s very easy to get the pool dry (not nearly as much women as in Tinder).
I think first you need to feel all the apps in your region for at least a week or two – and use the free features – before paying.
CK
Posted at 03:48 am, 7th January 2020I’ve had an awful time lately. A few years ago I killed with online dating having sex with ⅓ of the women I had first dates with for a total of about 35 that year. The past 6 months I’ve only had sex with one woman I met online from other than a SB site. I don’t know if this is a result of me notching up to 50 or getting complacent knowing that I can just got on a SB site and spend a little cash to be with a hot chick. I’ve got SB that have been in rotation with me for years, but I crave not only variety but also novelty. I will try upgrading to paid versions of Tinder and Bumble and focus more on no SB dates this year to see if I can get back to my old levels.
Jake
Posted at 01:41 pm, 7th January 2020@CK “past 6 months only had sex with one”…welp if it makes ya feel any better, I got absolutely nothing at all on any of the regular sites/apps, and I followed Blackdragon’s advice to the letter !( yes I purchased his online dating manual awhile ago). I honestly for the first time ever, I’ve actually recently considered trying out a SB/SD type site even though I’m much younger than 60 because I’ve been so damn frustrated of getting nothing at all with any of regular sites. I even got into the best shape of my life last year, and went out and got some professionally-done pictures taken which are the best I ever had, have made many new profiles with different pictures(still my best pictures) and it still didn’t seemed to matter. I know Blackdragon has mentioned to not let this frustrate a guy, but i’m not going to lie, it’s been very frustrating for me to do/try my best only to end up with nothing at all. That’s why I’ve contemplated trying out a SD site just to get some kind of friggin action, because trying to get just 1 match or response in the first place has felt like i’m trying to pull my hair out.
C Lo
Posted at 08:14 pm, 7th January 2020So, timely post.
I found this article that was setting FinTwit on Fire a couple of weeks back.
Four years ago I was falling all over chicks off of Match. Then it stopped. Couldn’t figure out why.
Well, the game changed! Especially with the swipe apps.
The success stories here are to be believed. And, this is the bad news, you need to get good at this because online dating is how people are meeting now.
Have fun!
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/2506bda6ca9a8b7ce8b3c54b4/files/c077b7e4-9a90-411d-9772-bf1ebfd12e98/Tyro_Dating_Market_Thesis_Final_For_Twitter_Pub_.pdf
Pickle Rick
Posted at 02:38 am, 8th January 2020Field Report
Mexico City
2019
Fit, late forties
United States national
MexicanCupid, Social Circle Game
Returning to Mexico City after a brief stint in the United States I was refreshed from the clustered cacophony of La Ciudad de Mexico (CDMX).
Mezcal it is.
Generally, I tend to hookup with girls in their early thirties. It’s not intended it just kind of works out that way. Where this might be a problem in the United States it’s not in Mexico. At least not for me. So there was often a fifteen year age difference. My experience is that Latin girls have no issue with this. I am fit and do dress well so that’s something. But I also think they prefer it. They prefer it much more than girls in the United States. Their attitude is refreshing also. And I have never really had to deal with much drama, addiction problems and things that would set me off and turn me away.
I decided to forego Tinder this time and focus on Mexican Cupid. Good choice because it was like shooting fish in a barrel (like Bangkok). The key takeaway here before you think it’s too easy is that I have always done good with Latinas–Mexican, Latin American, South American, Puerto Rican, Dominican. Know thyself as the saying goes. Don’t worry. Don’t be jealous. I ain’t all that. Dating in the United States has become a dumpster fire of epic proportions since about 2016. That’s one of the reasons I left. Not to mention the “Big Pinch” where we keep paying a little more and little more for everything. Has the fucking frog boiled to death yet.
Sold my house. Sold my car. Left a few small boxes with a relative. Hasta la vista United States. Good bye and good riddance.
One of my first: I slept with my Argentinian Spanish tutor and yes she was a typical Argentinian and what that means is the sex wasn’t really enjoyable because she was freaking out about the condom and all kinds of shit that challenges a good man’s hard on. Sheesh!
My batting average was .400 though.
I had the option of going on a date every night with a new girl if I wasn’t being frugal or lazy. I am often both. Mexico City is highly concentrated with hotties though if you’re willing to do the work so I could have done that for two weeks before I started the second round of dates.
Coyoacan is usually my base of operations. Most people from the U.S. and Europe stay in Condesa. Fuck those people. I don’t want to see a bunch of fucking arrogant-douche Americans or Europeans so I prefer Coyoacan. It’s beautiful. Google it. It’s a little farther from the center of the city but Uber is cheap in Mexico and the Metro Bus or Metro (subway) are safe and cheap if not a bit crowded at times.
Some were in Guadalajara. Logistically that would have been difficult and cost prohibitive. It’s a relatively short and cheap flight from Mexico City should you want to visit. And yes the girls in Guadalajara really are disproportionately world-class hot. Go figure.
With the Black Dragon method of not pressing on the first date and going for the home run on the second date the score is 100%
My ex–a plastic surgeon native to Mexico City–also decided to “leave the door open” after two years of dating. She was going to remove a bump on my nose but when she told me she had to inject a needle into the roof of my mouth I declined the free elective cosmetic surgery. We keep in touch though and our open door policy remains.
I also had kept in touch with a gorgeous Venezuelana that I worked with. Since we were no longer working together in that capacity (we worked together for a year) I decided to let her know that the first time I met her I was wowed by her beauty and impressed by her personality. She’s put together well and, of course, divorced from her abusive ex-husband (who isn’t these days). Nonetheless, she was delighted to know. Our first date was sushi. I am traveling quite extensively so that also defaults to an open door policy. She also speaks good English which is an added bonus because speaking Spanish too much makes my head spin like I am doing math. It requires intense, focused concentration.
There are two others that I decided to continue corresponding with.
All the girls I have dated regularly in Mexico have become good friends. The kind that if you needed something they would help (and vice versa). I value that kind of relationship so once again it works for me.
There’s also one from Brazil and one from Chile. She’s married but I think she is perhaps the hottest one. The one shortcoming here is sojourns to South America are not only time consuming but they are expensive so these are now essentially pen pals. But we keep in touch. Also, Santiago continues to face economic challenges with the riots/protests.
All in all, it’s great fun and I have had some intense and passionate affairs with Latinas. My two hot spots are Bogota, Colombia and Mexico City. The chemistry is there. I am not crazy about living in Mexico. It doesn’t quite have the infrastructure that Asia does as Caleb has pointed out. Their economy took a downturn of late. But it’s great for prolonged visits.
MexicanCupid is good. Light, flirty banter should get you her Whatsapp number after a few days of skilled repartee.
Pickle Rick
Posted at 02:46 am, 8th January 2020Field Report
Mexico City
2019
Fit, late forties
United States national
MexicanCupid, Social Circle Game
All girls were cute to hot with great personalities and proportioned figures.
Returning to Mexico City after a brief stint in the United States I was refreshed from the clustered cacophony of La Ciudad de Mexico (CDMX).
Mezcal it is.
Generally, I tend to hookup with girls in their early thirties. It’s not intended it just kind of works out that way. Where this might be a problem in the United States it’s not in Mexico. At least not for me. So there was often a fifteen year age difference. My experience is that Latin girls have no issue with this. I am fit and do dress well so that’s something. But I also think they prefer it. They prefer it much more than girls in the United States. Their attitude is refreshing also. And I have never really had to deal with much drama, addiction problems and things that would set me off and turn me away.
I decided to forego Tinder this time and focus on Mexican Cupid. Good choice because it was like shooting fish in a barrel (like Bangkok). The key takeaway here before you think it’s too easy is that I have always done good with Latinas–Mexican, Latin American, South American, Puerto Rican, Dominican. Know thyself as the saying goes. Don’t worry. Don’t be jealous. I ain’t all that. Dating in the United States has become a dumpster fire of epic proportions since about 2016. That’s one of the reasons I left. Not to mention the “Big Pinch” where we keep paying a little more and little more for everything. Has the fucking frog boiled to death yet.
Sold my house. Sold my car. Left a few small boxes with a relative. Hasta la vista United States. Good bye and good riddance.
One of my first: I slept with my Argentinian Spanish tutor and yes she was a typical Argentinian and what that means is the sex wasn’t really enjoyable because she was freaking out about the condom and all kinds of shit that challenges a good man’s hard on. Sheesh!
My batting average was .400 though.
I had the option of going on a date every night with a new girl if I wasn’t being frugal or lazy. I am often both. Mexico City is highly concentrated with hotties though if you’re willing to do the work so I could have done that for two weeks before I started the second round of dates.
Coyoacan is usually my base of operations. Most people from the U.S. and Europe stay in Condesa. Fuck those people. I don’t want to see a bunch of fucking arrogant-douche Americans or Europeans so I prefer Coyoacan. It’s beautiful. Google it. It’s a little farther from the center of the city but Uber is cheap in Mexico and the Metro Bus or Metro (subway) are safe and cheap if not a bit crowded at times.
Some were in Guadalajara. Logistically that would have been difficult and cost prohibitive. It’s a relatively short and cheap flight from Mexico City should you want to visit. And yes the girls in Guadalajara really are disproportionately world-class hot. Go figure.
With the Black Dragon method of not pressing on the first date and going for the home run on the second date the score is 100%
My ex–a plastic surgeon native to Mexico City–also decided to “leave the door open” after two years of dating. She was going to remove a bump on my nose but when she told me she had to inject a needle into the roof of my mouth I declined the free elective cosmetic surgery. We keep in touch though and our open door policy remains.
I also had kept in touch with a gorgeous Venezuelana that I worked with. Since we were no longer working together in that capacity (we worked together for a year) I decided to let her know that the first time I met her I was wowed by her beauty and impressed by her personality. She’s put together well and, of course, divorced from her abusive ex-husband (who isn’t these days). Nonetheless, she was delighted to know. Our first date was sushi. I am traveling quite extensively so that also defaults to an open door policy. She also speaks good English which is an added bonus because speaking Spanish too much makes my head spin like I am doing math. It requires intense, focused concentration.
There are two others that I decided to continue corresponding with.
All the girls I have dated regularly in Mexico have become good friends. The kind that if you needed something they would help (and vice versa). I value that kind of relationship so once again it works for me.
There’s also one from Brazil and one from Chile. She’s married but I think she is perhaps the hottest one. The one shortcoming here is sojourns to South America are not only time consuming but they are expensive so these are now essentially pen pals. But we keep in touch. Also, Santiago continues to face economic challenges with the riots/protests.
All in all, it’s great fun and I have had some intense and passionate affairs with Latinas. My two hot spots are Bogota, Colombia and Mexico City. The chemistry is there. I am not crazy about living in Mexico. It doesn’t quite have the infrastructure that Asia does as Caleb has pointed out. Their economy took a downturn of late. But it’s great for prolonged visits.
MexicanCupid is good. Light, flirty banter should get you her Whatsapp number after a few days of skilled repartee.
Incognito
Posted at 04:55 am, 8th January 2020Okay, I’ll contribute a post from Jakarta, Indonesia.
I currently use OKC almost exclusively. I get good results with that, so I don’t feel the need to branch out much, although I’ve tried other apps and platforms, including Date in Asia and Tinder. I pay for a premium level of service, which probably improves my rankings and allows me to see ‘likes’, with a few other advantages.
I get a very good initial response rate, so high that against Caleb’s advice, I do often engage in screening. I look for signs of some education and status, and positively screen for women who say that they are atheists/agnostics, bisexuals, or open to non-monogamy. I’ve just found that those identifying thus are more likely to be sex positive and less likely to be looking for provider hunters. I also positively screen for married women, for the same reasons. But that kind of screening is by no means essential, I’ve also had good luck with conventional women who insist that they are only interested in marriage. Often, while that is indeed their ideal outcome, they’ll settle for less.
While being a white male in Jakarta definitely carries prestige, I’d say this advantage is declining over the years, with the rise of Indonesia’s middle class, increased incomes, and so on. Twenty years ago, the prestige was incredible. But I do have the advantage of actually living here, speaking the local language, doing consultancy work that at least can be made to sound interesting, for a number of very high status organization. On the minus side, I’m 56, although I claim 51 on the OKC site. If I’m ever asked at any point after that, then I state my real age. It’s just that most Indonesian men are sick and old and ugly at my age, so women tend to assume that that’s inevitable. Once I meet them, they see I’m fit, slim (10% body fat), dress well, good hair.
But I think most men find it fairly easy to at least open a prospect. It can sometimes take a little work to get them to agree to a date, but not too bad. Sometimes it peters out after the first date, either because you don’t meet their expectations or they don’t meet yours. If you are dealing with a non-crazy, conventional Indonesian woman, you might need a second coffee shop date before you can get them to come around to your place. If they DO agree to come around, sex is almost inevitable. The trick is to ask them with great innocence, perhaps offer to make them a better cup of coffee than the coffee shop serves, but don’t sound sneaky or shy about it. A lot of them WILL be a little shocked, just because of the assumptions that people make about visiting someone in private. So, a guileless face, as though you are proposing something perfectly normal.
Before you actually meet, you should absolutely avoid any dirty talk, it’s better not to talk about sex at all. Even the horniest women here find it off-putting, so leave it, unless they bring it up first. As per BD’s advice, don’t volunteer to much information about yourself, about sex or other matters. Every time you feel like making a statement, stop and consider whether you could ask a question instead.
I’ve had bad luck with VYW, but at my age, my target range is really 30-40. VYW tend to be looking for sugar daddies, at least with older prospects. They are also often virgins and committed to remaining that way until they are married. The best group is divorced women, of course. They don’t have that issue to deal with, and everyone assumes they are loose, so they don’t have much to lose. In general, Indonesian women are very sex positive and quite open to the idea of relationship with a foreigner, with many women believing that they are less likely to get pressure to get married and more likely just to get good, uncomplicated sex from them. I was chatting with one sweet young thing who I met and had sex with a long time ago, and she told me she now had an Indonesian bf. I asked her how the sex was, and she got a bit offended: of course I don’t have sex with him, she said, I don’t want him to think I’m a slut! But it’s okay with foreigners, the usual rules don’t apply.
Over the past few months, I’ve met and had sex with three new women, including a Ugandan student of 25; an extremely hot (at least nine) married woman, who is a bit of a flake emotionally, but … well, gorgeous. High end FB material. And I’ve met a BDSM scene queen who is an open activist for polyamory. On the fat side of chubby, but she has a certain pizazz, particularly when she dresses in ropes and leathers. She seems to have flaked after the first time we had sex, but I’m still in contact. I think that might be a case when I could justify “friend zone” on the grounds that I can use her to meet other women. She already introduced me to another BDSM fan, with whom I’m chatting on line.
I usually log onto the site, review any ‘likes’ I’ve received, then do a general search, then one setting various parameters. I drop short introductions, then wait for them to respond. A bit of chat about books, films, places to go, but always getting around to meeting in person. I always try to get off the forum and switch to communication via WA, which is the most common messenger. Some women do resist a bit, but I just point out the OKC’s system is slow and buggy. I usually insist on meetings in my comfort zone, usually in a cool set of coffee shops a kilo or two from my place. I’ve broken that rule and traveled a bit further on occasions, but I have to say, it seems to jinx the operation. I always have less success when I do it, so I’m resisting any further temptation.
Speaking with other foreigners who live around SE Asia, I would say that Indonesia is probably the best place in the region to meet non-hooker women. Maybe the Philippines is similar. Yes, I’m aware of Thailand and Cambodia’s reputation, but that seems to be more driven by the existence of huge sex industries. Both places have negative attitudes and taboos about relationships with foreigners, at least for women other than village girls and hookers. I’m sure there are exceptions to that rule, but it seems to stand.
Any questions, feel free to ask!
Greg
Posted at 04:22 pm, 8th January 2020Incognito, I don’t have any questions, but interesting to read your account, as I find Indonesian women to be similar to Filipino women – really ugly for the most part, so they have no appeal to me personally. I’m sure there’s hot ones in both categories, but I assume they’re usually taken. With Indonesia being a predominantly Muslim country and also a pretty fucked up (economically), super corrupt country, those factors don’t give it any appeal. I read that they’re intending to relocate Jakarta, as the current city is sinking.
gamblinsam
Posted at 04:54 pm, 8th January 2020Would be great if successful guys could link to their profile pics, maybe share their opening lines that are working. I’m in extremely good shape, do part time work modeling, and have had great success with my photos and BD’s system in various countries around the world.
HOWEVER, since moving back to the US two years ago, continuing to apply BD’s system and constantly taking and experimenting with new photos and openers etc. I have only managed to land less than 10 dates and less than 5 new girls in two fucking years. Fucking miserable. I would get 5-8 girls a month no problem outside the US. I’ve had plenty of women open me on Bumble, but never pulled a single date off that app. They always agree to a date, but always cancel too.
Then again, nobody here is reporting much above 1 girl per month and most are not in the US. Granted where I’m at currently I’d be happy to achieve even such a small number, but I surely wouldn’t consider myself ‘successful’ or say my system was working very well even if I were at that point. It’s certainly not a high enough rate to lead to the type of dating life which BD says he has achieved.
Greg
Posted at 06:38 pm, 8th January 2020Gamblinsam, what US city are you in. Maybe post a link to your current profile and links to the pics you’ve been and are currently using.
PrepZ
Posted at 06:53 pm, 8th January 2020@gamblinsam
Huh.
Well, it’s hard to analyze and troubleshoot anyone’s success and failure with differing anecdotal accounts that lack specificity. In particular, geographical region, city and estimated population size you’re pulling from. Also, some idea of BD tracking stats, but especially the most important one: # of times having sex with new woman per number of swipes/openers sent. Also # of layes per first/second dates would be a good apples-to-apples benchmark.
Frankly, I still do better than that with good ‘ol 2010 PUA game (day and night) as a 50+ year old without doing much work, simply by demonstrating high value and as a mature, accomplished man , staying in relatively athletic shape, easily pulling 30-40 range (but rarely 20’s anymore). 2020 will be a shift to online for me to pick some of that young, ripe fruit that I’ve been missing lately.
So I really can’t add anything here about online dating other than suggesting some commonality of stats in the reporting of what’s working online.
FatalFake
Posted at 04:56 am, 9th January 2020Tinder & Badoo, Ufa, Russian Federation
Digital designer, 27 years old. Decent looks and height. Rent appartment in 1 000 000 city downtown.
Followed yours and Magnum model. It works in Russia almost the same. Dated a girls from 19 to 29
Thoughts
1. 2nd date only in bar or diner. You can pull russian girl home after first date. But she will NEVER agree to come right to your place right away on 2nd date.
2. A lot of flakes. Approx 1/2 to 2/3 of my scheduled first dates flakes. Maybe it’s my bad, i’m only 4 month in dating/PUA
I’m pretty happy with results. Without online dating i had like a 1 or 2 lays in a year. With Blackdragon dating model i had 6 lays with girls i find hot in last 3 month. Don’t think it’s very good results, but for me it’s great
Sry for my English(((
Incognito
Posted at 05:24 am, 9th January 2020A British Cockney friend of mine once described Indonesian women as “Li’l brown fings wiv short legs ‘n nae noses.” Haha. And it’s probably true that if you picked 100 women at random from the street, quite a few of them would fit that description. Perhaps out of a hundred, 15 would be arguably cute, and three would be hot. Maybe not even that many. But there is also a huge variation between ethnic groups on different islands. Menado women, for example, are famous for fair skin and sharp noses and other features. Also, the proportion would go up if you were looking at middle and upper-middle class women. Whatever, there are enough cute and hot women around, even if the proportion is small.
You’re probably right when you say that Indonesian women are quite similar to Filipinos. I haven’t spent enough time in the Philippines to argue the point. I’d say the most beautiful Asian women are the southern Chinese and the northern Vietnamese. Even among those groups, I’m not saying they are ALL like that, not even most.
I like slim, wiry women with small shapely tits, so I don’t miss the Europeans or Australians and I find plenty that meet my tastes here.
Well, what do you mean by ‘taken’? Some of them are married, but that doesn’t seem to slow them down much. As I said, my totally hot FB, who I’d describe as a nine, is married. She’s from a mixed Dutch, Chinese and Javanese background – a Catholic, by the way.
Yeah, well. I’m very wary of saying anything about a Muslim country. Nothing seems to derail comments on a forum more than people ranting about Islam. Suffice to say that in the last election, only around 28% of people voted for a party with any religious affiliation. Around 20% of the population is Christian, Catholic, Buddhist or Hindu, with the proportion much higher in the big cities and among the middle classes. Among those who describe themselves as Muslim, about half are what are called “identity card Muslims” – that’s what they say on their documents, but in practice they don’t really believe it or follow the rules or even know much about it. In practice, the difference between them all doesn’t seem too big. They all behave like women.
Economically? It’s a middle income country and on the way up. It’s still way behind Malaysia, let alone Singapore, and not moving nearly as fast as Vietnam. But at least it’s going in the right direction.
It is super corrupt, I’ll give you that. Although the current president was a small-scale businessman, with a furniture export business worth one or two million dollars at the most. He’s pretty passionate about reducing the obstacles on businesses, reducing bureaucratic red tape, abolishing unnecessary licenses, all of that stuff.
Incognito
Posted at 05:37 am, 9th January 2020BD asked for information specifically about online dating, so I didn’t talk about day game and night game. I’ll add a few comments, though, if anyone’s interested. Day game is very easy here. Indonesians are friendly and quite open to someone coming up and starting a conversation with them. As for night game, the bars are full of women who aren’t exactly full-time professional hookers, but who would be happy to meet a guy for the night. It’s conventional to offer them “taxi money” the next morning, usually fifty bucks or so. It’s a sliding scale: some of the women do it mainly for the money, some do it mainly for the fun. Incredibly easy, it’s shooting ducks in a barrel. Personally, I’ve given it up since I stopped drinking, I just don’t enjoy going to bars much these days.
Jeff
Posted at 08:54 am, 9th January 2020Hey, Incognito. I’m in Indonesia too. You seem quite experienced regarding online dating, date, and FB’s. Where do you live? Do you stay in Jakarta?
gamblinsam
Posted at 11:29 am, 9th January 2020I’m just re-reading the post and realizing – 3 new women in 5 months? That’s your definition of success? Surely that is _way_ too few women to build and sustain the sort of lifestyle that is being promoted here, isn’t it? It’s certainly a million miles below your own track record. BD, you talk about going on _hundreds_ (actually I thought your claim is 1000’s of dates but I’m not 100% sure so I’m going with 100’s) of dates, even though you were/are on the chubby side of out of shape. Even over a period of 10 years, you would have to be getting with quite a few women every month to achieve hundreds, and a really huge amount of women every month (16 a month for 10 years to even get to 2000 dates, the minimum at which point you could say ‘thousands’)
It seems the greatest success story for an American here so far is what, not quite 2 a month? What is your opinion on why so many guys who are doing their best to exactly follow your advice, many of whom are younger and in better shape, yet their results are so dramatically below yours?
Has online dating become that much more difficult since the days when you were active?
I’ve been honing my skills for about 5 years now and I thought it was the system that was working but like I said, getting back to the US my results are garbage so I have to face the likelihood that I was getting a lot more mileage out of being ‘exotic’ than I realized. However, this post proves that pretty much nobody here is getting good results either so I have to ask, what do you think the disconnect is?
Truthteller
Posted at 12:36 pm, 9th January 202013 women last 3 months, 7 ‘cute’ 1 ‘super hot’
apps I’m on:
POF
Tinder
Bumble
apps that work:
POF
Tinder
Bumble, for whatever reason, does NOT work for me very well. I haven’t gotten laid from bumble in like 6 months. My relationship setting is set to ‘don’t know yet,’ so I will change that and see if the results change.
City:
Tier 2 major US city — 6x SMALLER than LA.
Basics:
I find that bouncing to another platform on the third message rather than simply asking to meetup has the highest retention rate. And then actually talking consistently in that medium until meeting up — I’ve lost many potential lays by not texting enough until the meetup (I think you cover this saying more is better until meeting).
(P.S. I’ve grown by leaps and bounds using the BD method. I’m finally reaping the rewards of being considered ‘good looking’ (I seriously did not believe it or what people said until now) by the way, BD, I’m way into fitness and have an FFMI around 25, so if you want weight loss advice here it is —
eat the same damn meals everyday for 2 months+
here is the best one
2 cans tuna with cheese (salsa optional) + 2 eggs.
before working out and after working out — half a pack of starburst
3-4x a day.
eat nothing but that.
every day.
Go to the gym and lift for 30-40 minutes HARD 3x a week minimum.
Do 30 minutes of cardio at least 3 times a week.
DO THIS CONSISTENTLY AND WITHOUT FAIL AND I GUARANTEE YOU WILL REACH YOUR FITNESS GOALS. PLEASE TRUST ME.)
Jonathan schnitter
Posted at 12:40 pm, 9th January 2020@gamblinsam
You still have yet to detail what city(s) in the US exactly you’re talking about.
The sample size in this comment section of guys is way too small to “prove” anything.
besides, there was the earlier poster from the Bay Area who seemed to be doing quite well, and this is not exactly known as a favorable geographic area for a guy.
PP
Posted at 01:26 pm, 9th January 202032, São Paulo Brazil (but I’m from Europe)
Tinder and Bumble, with paid subscription.
I just swipe when I have a few minutes, based solely on the girl’s pictures.
What I did is creating a “conversation tree”, where I have my opener and then responses to the majority of their responses etc. I have been on dating apps for so long that I noticed that women usually responded one of 3 or 4 ways (almost word by word) to my opener (as an aside, this is fascinating to me, it’s been years and hundreds of girls, and ALWAYS the same responses). So I drafted responses to these 3 or 4 possibilities, so on and so forth until by the seventh message, I get their numbers.
Then, though Whatsapp I use the same principles (this time adding gifs, pictures etc.) to pitch the meet. After that it is only a matter of logistics. I always meet them at the same bar, or invite them at my place depending on some of their answers on my conversation tree. This tree is heavily based on my personality/sense of humor, so when I meet them this is all 100% congruent.
I have all those messages pasted on the keyboard app on my phone, so I never actually type, I just paste the right message in the conversation.
It works basically like one of those sales ERP software, it’s just about moving your prospects through your funnel lol.
Also, every once in a while I send “revival” messages (another mini conversation tree) to leads who did not respond to the opener, or stopped responding at one point or the other of the conversation (again, tailor-made messages for each possibility). I found this worked quite well actually (I was surprised). My guess is that hot girls don’t really take these apps seriously, and frequently forget about them, and come back to them after a few weeks.
Needless to say it works great, and requires hardly any work. I do not even remember how many girls I brought home the last 5 months.
Besides the conversation tree, I would advise everyone to go hardcore on photos get the best of the best they can, and work on the logistics hard as well, going on dates on the absolute best places for that (bar, low lights, couches, close to your place etc.).
Best time to use those dating apps is Sunday afternoon/evening I found.
Good luck!
John Smith
Posted at 01:28 pm, 9th January 2020I just googled an FFMI calculator, and it put me at 23.3, and I’m carrying at least 30 lbs more fat than I want to, so it looks to like FFMI might be a good measure of how much muscle someone is carrying relative to height, but it says nothing about leanness – just like a low body fat % says nothing about how much muscle someone has. A low BF% would better suggest that someone might be qualified to give weight loss advice. I say “might” because someone who has always been lean doesn’t necessarily know what it takes to lose a significant amount of fat unless they’re a trainer or nutritionist and have a track record of successfully helping a lot of other people do it.
I’m not saying your advice is bad – just that it looks like FFMI needs to be paired with BF% to give a better idea of a person’s body composition.
I also recognize that this discussion is totally off-topic for the post.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 02:35 pm, 9th January 2020No. But it’s enough to weed out guys who aren’t getting any results.
Enough to build it? Unlikely.
Enough to sustain it? Yes, easily more than enough.
Yes. Hundreds of first dates over a period of many years of consistent effort. Not thousands. And for some of that time I was around 25 pounds of fat heavier than I am now, yes.
No. The comment right below yours, for example, is a guy in the USA who had sex with over 4 women a month.
1. This is going to sound really arrogant but this is my honest answer; when it comes to this kind of thing, most men are lazy and/or impatient and/or emotionally weak and I am not. Therefore with online dating (and things like daygame, etc) most men get discouraged and angry and stop trying or dramatically reduce their efforts before they find real success. This is true today and was true back then. Fact: most other online daters at the time I was going really crazy with it several years ago had results dramatically below mine as well, not just guys today. They weren’t willing to put in the work that I was. Most still aren’t. Dating is difficult. Rejection is difficult. Most men have a problem with difficult but I generally do not. I’m too motivated to avoid long-term unhappiness.
2. Game in general is indeed harder today. Online, daygame, night game, all of it has grown more difficult, as I’ve discussed at this blog many times. That’s not an excuse though since I just said that most online daters at the time I was doing this stuff weren’t getting the results I was getting either.
3. A decent percentage of women who used to be on online dating sites now use things like Instagram to get attention instead of doing things like talking to guys on dating sites or going out on first dates.
Mainly because it’s easier for Western guys (particularly white guys) to get laid in countries outside of the West than in the West. That’s always been the case. Guys all over the manosphere (like Roosh, Krauser, etc) made entire careers talking about this. So yeah, if you’re a Western guy getting laid outside of the West then suddenly move to the West, you’re going to see an immediate and jarring drop in results for the same level of action. Of course.
Where I differ from most of these guys is that I never left the country in order to get laid. Over 95% of all the women I’ve ever had sex with were American women living in America. I didn’t want to travel all over the world just to get pussy; I felt there was something deeply beta about that. (I still partially feel that way though my opinion on that has softened a little since then.) Instead, I forced myself to put in the time and effort to get laid as much as I needed to in the United States. Therefore when Western guys living outside of the West complain about how “hard” it is to get laid in the USA (or England, or Australia, or any other Western nation), I just shrug. I’ve already been through that fire so that kind of “hard” to me is “normal.”
Jacob
Posted at 03:47 pm, 9th January 2020Age: 25
Apps: Bumble, Hinge, and Tinder (free versions). I’ve recently tried OKC, but that has been a let down (probably because of my limited population size). I have two women older than me (32 and 38) that have agreed to a date, but you know how that goes. We’ll see at the end of this week if they follow through or not. Note: I’ve never tried the paid versions, but I’m sure they’re worth it.
City: Iowa City (population ~75K without the university students, ~100K with the university students).
Process:
Have quality pictures. If you don’t, don’t waste your time online. You’ll just get frustrated.
Swipe on the girls that I find attractive. I’m open to ONS, FBs, and MLTRs at this point in my life.
Message the girl ASAP after matching with her.
If she responds, I’ll usually message her 3-5 times before pitching the date.
Most girls will either agree or stop responding at this point. If she’s the “but I don’t know you well enough” type of girl, I’ll message her a few more times and pitch the same date again.
I typically do first dates at coffee shops. Standard first date procedure. However, I’ve AB tested asking girls back to my place on the 1st date vs the 2nd date. Findings (from 20 first dates): 45% of the women I asked over on the first date came over and had sex that same night. 9% said no to coming over the first date, but came over the second date and had sex (1st Date Ask aggregate total: 5 of 11 women). 67% of the women that I asked to come over on the second date came over and had sex (2nd Date Total: 6 of 9 women). Although this is a small sample size, it does seem to yield better results by asking women over on the 2nd date vs the 1st date. But, I only started recording within the last 5 or 6 months, and a few of my favorite girls have been those that I had sex with on the first date (which are not in this sample). Note: if you decide you want to ask a girl over on the first date, I recommend doing so as you’re walking out of the venue to your car. That way, if she says no, you can just smile, say “no worries,” and give her a hug and leave.
When a girl’s over, I just throw on some music and chat with her. I kiss her pretty quickly, and we’re having sex generally within the hour (I typically build up the sexual tension slowly, especially the first time. The whole 2 steps forward, one step back kind of thing. That’s just my personal style though but I don’t face a lot of resistance because of it.)
Categorize as ONS, FB, or MLTR, and repeat the process as needed.
Tips:
Get used to girls ignoring you/not messaging you back. It happens, and it happens often. I see a lot of guys on Reddit bitch and moan about how 3 girls in a row stopped messaging them. Oh no! Girls on dating apps (especially very attractive ones) have more matches than you can fathom. And dating apps in general have WAY more men on them than women. That’s why you pitch the date quickly so you can meet them IRL before they stop messaging you (because it WILL happen. It’s just a matter of when.)
Don’t be afraid to unmatch women. Most of your matches won’t go anywhere, so you need to be able to unmatch girls that aren’t moving the interaction forward. Typically, that means girls that stop messaging you for x amount of time, or girls that won’t agree to meeting up (but will continue to message you anyways).
Try to schedule a date sooner rather than later. The further out you set a date, the less likely it will happen. It’s RARE that a woman will set a date a week+ out and stick with it without you having to remind her every few days.
Don’t forget to send her a confirmation text(s). I know BD has his own guidelines, but I typically send a girl a message earlier that day confirming if we’re still on. I also send her one 15-30 minutes before the date telling her to let me know when she’s leaving (granted, the coffee shop I tend to go to is 2-3 minutes away from my house, so adjust this time depending on your city size and logistics).
Hope this helps.
Truthteller
Posted at 05:32 pm, 9th January 2020“but it says nothing about leanness”
lol yeah it does. it’s COMMON KNOWLEDGE among fitness people that for FFMI to even be truly accurate you need to be 12% bf or below because, you’re right, fat people carry more muscle. but no one really cares about fat muscle.
see this link:
https://mennohenselmans.com/ffmi-calculator/
“Although the formulas correct for body fat percentage, since fat-free mass scales considerably with body fat percentage, these estimates are only accurate for men in the body fat range of 4-12%. Fatter individuals may be able to achieve greater levels of muscularity.”
however, if you want to say something about leanness, then simply refer to this blog post to see how to calculate both your FFMI along with the fat mass you are carrying and check off the respective percentiles
https://johnfawkes.com/good-shape-heres-compare/
Truthteller
Posted at 05:41 pm, 9th January 2020@John Smith
And I do have a low bf% —I hover between 7-10% during the year.
I used to be obese — 30% bodyfat — many moon ago. I’m one of the lucky ones with zero loose skin or stretch marks. Must be the hispanic genes.
I know weight loss. Specifically fat loss.
The only way it really works is you have to simply sacrifice all pleasure from food. Just forget about deriving pleasure from it and treat it like fuel and nothing more. And voila, you will go as far as you want.
John Smith
Posted at 06:41 pm, 9th January 2020You’re not necessarily talking to “fitness people” here so thanks for the links. I was going by the formula I found (FFMI = Lean Body Mass (kg) / Height (m)² ) and didn’t see any reference to body fat. Sure, you need to know BF% to calculate fat-free mass from body weight, but other than that, it didn’t appear to play a role in the calculation. After a little more reading, it looks like the problem with the FFMI over 12% BF isn’t that fat people carry more muscle – it’s that they carry more fat-free mass that isn’t muscle (probably mostly water).
But still, even knowing that it might only be accurate in the 4%-12% range, you’re left assuming that anyone who references their FFMI would only do that if they were at most 12% bodyfat – the number itself doesn’t tell you.
Incognito
Posted at 06:46 pm, 9th January 2020Ouch. No denying I wonder about this myself sometimes. I remember reading about some incel rage incident and a friend sighing and staring “There but for the grace of God …”
There’s still plenty of opportunities to behave like a beta if you really want to. A typical pattern is for men to leap into whoring and bar girls for a year or two and then get married to one of them.
Game still matters. Despite all the fantasies I hear about Asian women, including on this forum, they do actually have quite a level of ASD. They are also very status conscious. If you aspire to anything other than village girls, you still need to present yourself well and know how to talk.
BD, I dont need to preach to YOU about the Joy’s of traveling or living outside your own country. I always feel mildly contemptuous of people who never do that, if only for a year or two. Sure, there are retired expats who live in Thailand and Cambodia mainly because of the availability of women there, but it’s actually a pretty small proportion of the foreigners who live here. Mostly, guys do it for work, business or general adventure.
A
Posted at 08:26 pm, 9th January 2020I am not sure Game is ‘harder’ than before. That is a view that keeps popping up on Game blogs, under the belief that too many men know Game. I am certain that that is not the case.
i) If too many men knew Game, there would not be so much betatude, men still spending tons of money on women they are not having sex with, etc. In other words, the wholesale behavior of women would have improved, rather than gotten worse.
ii) On this thread alone, people point that that too many men online don’t actually move to meeting the woman. They just ramble on and on. This is evidence of very little average Game competence in men.
iii) When I see a 9 out and about, or sitting in a coffee shop, not a single man opens her in an hour. Just a simple daygame approach, but I don’t see any men doing it, or even considering such a thing.
Game competence is far too little for women to have significantly ‘adapted’ to it, and you are assuming the adaptation would make them bitchier, rather than better behaved by contrast.
Neil
Posted at 01:57 am, 10th January 2020This.
Men are lazy and only a few are willing to push themselves, be it dating or having a business. It’s easier for them to whine about how they can’t find a business to start or how it’s all down to feminists that they don’t get laid etc..
DonQuibollox
Posted at 03:12 am, 10th January 2020@Incognito: Your experiences certainly agree with mine in a nearby country.
I wonder what is happening with the proposed Indonesian criminal code which was hitting the news a few months ago because it included making criminals out of all unmarried people having sex, including tourists? Are they serious?? If that ever goes through I will not be visiting Indonesia again.
Sorry for the OT, BD.
Aloofus
Posted at 06:39 am, 10th January 2020Me- 37
Apps: Tinder/Bumble/OKC/FB
Results; I get a pretty decent amount of matches, but I have the same problem today that I’ve had for the past while. My match to date ratio is absolutely shitty. I typically do well once I’ve actually had a date. I do generally use BDs system, but if I’m feeling she’s down for an SNL I’ll go for it.
Of all of the apps I’ve had the about equal success with all of them. Lately I get far more matches on FB than anywhere else. But I’ve also had relatively few dates. Same issues, stop responding before the pitch, accept but don’t ever text, or flake before meeting.
Allen
Posted at 07:40 am, 10th January 2020@Aloofus: how exactly do you get “matches” on Facebook? Do you mean that you send strangers that are in your area friend requests? Because that definitely does not work, and even if it’s women that’s on the fringe of your social-circle, I’ve found that even they likely will not accept your friend request/messages in the first place…
@Jacob: “have quality pictures, if you don’t you’ll just get frustrated”… well even with quality pictures that are a guys all-time best, it’s very likely that even that won’t really seem to do much or at least that is what’s happened to me. Last year I went out and paid for the best photographer in my area (Northern US medium size city). Those pictures are by far my best pictures I have had. And I even made some fake female accounts to peep my “competition” and yeah most guys profiles had the crappiest pictures/didn’t try at all… so I got excited and thought ok awesome it’ll be very clear that I’ll definitely stand out in a great way and get at least some success….. Well well still to this day, I’m still waiting to get actual damned results because still nothing at all. True frustration is when a guy like me actually goes and does exactly what advice he’s told (like the advice on this blog/ his dating ebooks) only to still end up with Zero things day-after-day!!
Anchorman
Posted at 08:00 am, 10th January 2020Facebook has a dating app now, but it’s on your phone only, it doesn’t show up on your PC browser. For me, the FB app has added a few hits (just started using it a few days ago) but it’s not enough to rely solely on.
Anchorman
Posted at 08:35 am, 10th January 2020Post your profile text, let us critique it.
gamblinsam
Posted at 01:51 pm, 10th January 2020BD, I get what you’re saying, but, isn’t the whole point of having a developed system, that we should be able to apply it and get results without the need for years of strenuous failure, since you went through all that on our behalf in developing the system?
It’s also extremely hard to do when you consider, after you do all the work, get new photos, write up a new profile, and send out those openers to every woman in the area, and then all you hear is crickets, it’s not like you can just ‘try again’. You’re done. It’s many weeks or even months before there will be enough new profiles to take a second shot.
“Despite all the fantasies I hear about Asian women, including on this forum, they do actually have quite a level of ASD. They are also very status conscious”
I’ve traveled in a lot of places in Asia and never been anywhere that this was true. For one thing, saying ‘Asian’ women is just as dumb as saying ‘American’ women because each encompasses a huge variety of completely different cultures and subcultures. An American latina brought up in the Bronx has pretty much no similarity at all to an American white girl raised in the Bible Belt for example. Japanese women are massively different than Indonesians, Phillipine women are massively different than Chinese, etc. etc.
I lived in China for many years, and the women have unbelievably low ASD. I would honestly say it literally doesn’t even exist, and that was my experience in other Asian countries as well. My average meet to lay time in China was barely over half an hour. As far as ‘status conscious’, this would be true when selecting a _husband_ but have zero impact on general dating dynamics.
Greg
Posted at 03:04 pm, 10th January 2020Facebook’s dating app is currently only available in 19 countries, as they’re testing it out. Australia doesn’t yet have it.
Jake
Posted at 05:06 pm, 10th January 2020@gamblinsam: I feel your exact pain brother, I really do. Now most of the other guys on here that will read our comments will probably just think that we’re complaining/whining. But I honestly and seriously feel that I have done every single piece of advice that I read on the blog/and from the Ultimate dating ebook, and still absolutely nothing at all to show for it. Now watch, I bet the other guys are going to say something along the lines of just make new profiles/get better pictures…but that’s the thing, I already have made many multiple profiles ( I lost count, but I know I made at least 8 different profiles throughout last year) that each had a different style and each profile had different pictures but were all still from my best possible pictures and none if it has seemed mattered up to this point. Also, the reason I haven’t disclosed my area is because I’m trying not to buy into the excuse or use the excuse that certain areas aren’t good but I’ll just say that I live in a US city that decent-sized, probably medium size, but yeah at this point at a loss for words :/
Greg
Posted at 05:13 pm, 10th January 2020If you read Caleb’s book and you’re not getting any results, maybe post a link to your profile and all the pics you’ve been using to get feedback, or sign on to SMIC and get a 1on1 coaching session to get more personalised help.
B
Posted at 10:45 pm, 10th January 2020No one here is getting good results? Really? I’d consider my results great. I have all the women I want, pretty much whenever I want. I literally can’t go on all the dates/fuck all the women I COULD due to prioritization of my time (I also like to have a social life, deeper connections with some of my women, I work, and I run my own business). Personally, I’m more than happy with my online dating results, and supposedly I live in one of the most difficult areas in the US. The secret is PERSEVERANCE. Keep going, track your progress, take note of areas that need improvement, make changes, rinse/repeat.
Pickle Rick
Posted at 06:53 am, 11th January 2020PP
I do the same thing and it surprises me.
Why not though?
It costs nothing.
Sounds like a lot of guys are having a tough go.
If that is the case then be your own lab rat, experiment and observe.
That’s what I did.
I found my luck as a foreigner much better. Not to say I hate the U.S. but the dynamics have most definitely changed.
Here’s the thing. In college I was poor. But I had a lot of opportunities. I pinballed around a lot and it was fun.
It was a different time though and I was younger.
Here’s what happens now…
Right around forty–if it isn’t already that way–sex becomes a wholly financial matter. I cannot stress this enough.
No matter how fit you are.
And I don’t mean you are paying for sex I mean you need to be able to fund the lifestyle to be able to go out and have sex with hot girls. It’s indirect but so essential. If you want to be a sugar daddy then it’s strictly financial up front, of course. No game involved.
The core of Black Dragon’s philosophy and strategy is get your money right first even if it takes a year and lots of hard work. Possibly longer.
But everybody has heard that expression about if it isn’t working try something different.
Old school Pick-Up techniques still work for me. Like a charm. Because the principles are nearly universal. Being fit and dressing well helps but you can get by without those added benefits if you are making the prerequisite $75,000 or more. So right back to the money.
My old training partner used to count money in different terms of currency–Cheetah’s Boob Money. Because you tip one dollar for a pair of boobs in Cheetah’s. So he would say that will cost fifty boobies or something like that.
Money.
You are paying for it one way or the other.
Until women start dating and courting men it will take funding.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:03 am, 11th January 2020Yes. Once you go thorugh the pain of developing the system, you don’t need to feel the pain anymore since the system is in place. Exactly.
The problem is that you ahve to go through the pain of learning and getting good at the new system, and that part may not be very fun. Refer to the Happiness Change Curve here.
In some smaller cities, you’re correct. Then you wait those weeks/months and try again. You work that into your plan (and/or move to a larger city).
You work the obstacles into your plan instead of throwing your hands in the air and declaring that you’re just screwed for life.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:08 am, 11th January 2020Lots of guys in this thread are reporting success, and lots of guys are reporting struggles. This is exactly what I expected.
My job here is to cull the techniques from myself and the other guys who have experienced success and get that out to the men who are struggling. That’s my responsibly, and I’m willing to do it. Once that’s done (and most of it has already been done), it’s up to the men who are struggling to take action on these things until they start getting regular results.
And as I said above, if you’re struggling, make some guesses as to what you are doing wrong and then change your approach and then try again. And again. And again. And again. Until you start getting results. That’s exactly what I did. It’s not fun, but it works. And once it works, you’re “set” for life on this. It’s an extremely high-return investment. Seriously.
Nord
Posted at 09:59 am, 11th January 2020Caleb, slightly off-topic but in your view, how big should a city’s population size need to be for a guy to successfully have non-monogamous relationships there? I remember you saying in one interview on youtube that if the city’s population is too small you should just have a traditional girlfriend there.
Old Mountian Bear
Posted at 10:48 am, 11th January 2020How about I put this in a far less audience friendly way than our illustrious Black Dragon here.
Really take a look at yourself, imagine all the hours of work it takes to get better at anything – got that?
Now recognize that you are being lazy, likely mediocre or worse, and that all that work will take lots of hours away from pleasuring yourself to porn. Stop crying, stop making excuses like the typical sperg!
How to start:
1. Recognize you are the problem, stop crying and feeling sorry for yourself.
2. Find all activities and habits not to your benefit.
3. Triage all the fucked up shit (#2) and work on the top three things.
4. Get fit, not just “best you” but better than 8/10, any man can do this, mediocre and less is half the population.
5. Start somewhere, if that is banging some fun fatties, roll that hay Jack!
6. Keep records of everything personal and business and get organized.
7. Be merciless with yourself and learn to love that, the world has no mercy.
8. If your area sucks for work or sex, get the fuck out.
9. The “burden of performance” is yours as a man, it is not fair – lead, follow or fuck off.
10. There is no shame in winning, even the little things, revel in all the good, claim it all.
Old Mountian Bear
Posted at 10:55 am, 11th January 2020Hey Nord
I have found that non-monogamy/Poly is far better suited to the expected anonymity of larger urban areas above 750,000 in population. A million plus is even better. New York, LA, Houston, DFW, Chicago, San Fran, Miami, Atlanta are the type areas best for the lifestyle.
gamblinsam
Posted at 04:43 pm, 11th January 2020Well if you’re getting zero results, you can’t really know what needs to be fixed. And if you’re getting partial results, you still have no way of knowing what is working or isn’t because the rare result could just be the whole ‘even a blind dog finds a bone’ 1/500 chance that is bound to happen eventually thing.
There are only 3 pieces to the puzzle, correct me if I’m wrong: photos, openers, and the conversation after the opener that leads to the date pitch.
I am never getting to that conversation part therefore my issue must be photos or openers. My openers are designed exactly on BD’s formula from his books, and I get about 1 in 150 women will respond to that, so that seems to not be working.
However in my experience, the feeling I have gotten with every woman I’ve ever successfully pulled off a dating app is that she had already made up her mind to meet me and it basically didn’t matter what I said. My assumption has always been that this is because mostly what they care about are the photos.
BD recommends using only professional shots. However, I’ve looked at a lot of other places for advice on the photos and the general consensus is that using all-professional shots will greatly under perform compared to a profile with more ‘candid’ shots.
So I think important questions to ask everyone here who is having good results would be:
what opener are you using, or what is the basic formula of your opener
are you using an ‘all professional’ set of pics as BD suggests, or what other kind of pics do you include?
I can’t figure out how to test this myself because I have no candid shots where I don’t look like an absolute retard. I look great in pics where the photographer chooses the right angles and lighting and all that, but snapshots while out with friends are 100% cringeworthy all the time. What I am _guessing_ I need, is to find a photographer who can take shots that are from the right angles, but appear like a random pic taken by a friend while hanging out.) However this seems to be an extremely difficult thing to fake.
Like another guy above, I’ve got a wide variety of professional shots and have spent a ton of money on doing this and constantly making new profiles and trying new things but none of it has improved the results.
I really wish we could see the pics BD (or others) have used with good results to model after.
Old Mountian Bear
Posted at 05:12 pm, 11th January 2020gamblinsam
“had already made up her mind to meet me and it basically didn’t matter what I said”
Yes and no, you can obviously blow this up with mistakes.
“So I think important questions to ask everyone here who is having good results would be:
what opener are you using, or what is the basic formula of your opener
are you using an ‘all professional’ set of pics as BD suggests, or what other kind of pics do you include?”
I’m willing to share in a more secure and private forum.
gamblinsam
Posted at 07:02 pm, 11th January 2020BD, I know you say Tinder doesn’t work for you but bumble has been ok.
Do you use a different kind of opener on Bumble? Different photos?
What is your theory as to WHY you don’t get results on Tinder? If 20% of women are into older guys, that same 20% must be on Tinder also. It doesn’t make sense that suddenly you can’t pull just because of the age gap which, correct me if I’m wrong, is the only reason I’ve seen you give for why you believe you can’t pull on Tinder. What reason do you have for believing that younger women who are into older men are any less represented on Tinder than anywhere else?
Isn’t it _far_ more rational to conclude that your system is the issue, rather than your age? Which makes perfect sense since you have not put any work (correct?) into studying/experimenting/learning what changes need to be made to get results on Tinder.
If you are going to present an online dating system that works today, it has to be one that works specifically on these two apps, and also works for guys of any age.
You have to admit, the women on these apps are not only vastly more numerous, but also generally much more attractive. I have never run out of women to swipe on Tinder, but I can easily exhaust the combined options of ALL other dating sites in a single evening.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but it just seems ridiculous for “The One and Only BlackDragon” to cop out and say (paraphrasing): ‘if you’re an older guy, Tinder isn’t going to work for you to get younger women’. This can’t be true. You’re Blackdragon, aren’t you?? You just haven’t taken the time to figure it out because you don’t need to for your personal sex life.
This is all just to say, personally I believe if anyone can figure it out, you can. I’ll happily pay 10 times the cover price of your most expensive book if you could actually accomplish this. In any case, publishing anything else is going to be pointlessly irrelevant to online dating as it stands today.
Incognito
Posted at 07:20 pm, 11th January 2020I’ve traveled in a lot of places in Asia and never been anywhere that this was true. For one thing, saying ‘Asian’ women is just as dumb as saying ‘American’ women because each encompasses a huge variety of completely different cultures and subcultures. An American latina brought up in the Bronx has pretty much no similarity at all to an American white girl raised in the Bible Belt for example. Japanese women are massively different than Indonesians, Phillipine women are massively different than Chinese, etc. etc.”
“I lived in China for many years, and the women have unbelievably low ASD. I would honestly say it literally doesn’t even exist, and that was my experience in other Asian countries as well. My average meet to lay time in China was barely over half an hour. As far as ‘status conscious’, this would be true when selecting a _husband_ but have zero impact on general dating dynamics.”
I agree with a lot of that, particularly about the myth that there is even is such a thing as an “Asian woman.” But that’s what I mean when I talk about delusional fantasies. Whenever I hear a statement that starts with “Asian women are …” I think, who the hell are you talking about? Chinese? Thais? Indians? Bengalis? Tibetans? Uzhbecks (at a pinch)? Usually it just means the guy used to masturbate himself to sleep after watching Lucy Liu or someone on the screen.
You’re obviously not talking about sexually repressed India or Pakistan, but I can see what you’re saying about ASD. Maybe I phrased it badly. There IS a difference between ‘shame cultures’ and ‘guilt cultures,’ and despite what I just said about diversity, a lot of Asian cultures ARE shame cultures. People don’t have attacks of conscience, but they DO care what people think of them, their families, their neighbors and so on.
If ASD refers to a woman’s internalized guilt feelings or worries about how YOU see her, you’re probably right. But if it refers to how other people see them, I dont think so.
So, you gotta know how to behave with them. They certainly dont want to kiss in public or even hold hands, they might even want to walk a few meters away from you, even if they are walking to your house to have sex with you. They are also highly aware of how gossip travels around and want to know that you can keep your mouth shut around the people that matter to her.
And the respectable Indonesian women I know do worry that a foreigner might not know how to be cool with stuff like that. It may not matter if they have a quick shag with a tourist at a hotel while she’s on holiday in Bali and the hubby is looking the other way, but it is if it’s going to be an ongoing thing.
Case in point: my married FB only gave me her primary mobile number after I’d met her about six times, because she said she realizes I’ll be cool enough not to text at odd hours of the night or to telephone without checking that it’s okay. The social consequences of getting caught for her would be far worse than in most western countries.
Is China so different? Maybe you get so much rural to urban shift that people are so dislocated from family, village and community that they dont give a shit? Possibly, but I’d be very surprised. I’ve been involved with a fair few Indonesian-Chinese women, and nothing about that changes my opinions.
Be interested to hear your thoughts.
GregB
Posted at 04:03 am, 12th January 2020Gamblinsam, Caleb never said that he’s Aladdin and that his online game methods are a magic pill. He just says it’s a total numbers game and you’ve got to put in huge numbers and you need to be relentlessly tenacious, plus use several sites. It would be very interesting to hear from guys aged 45 and older who’ve been and/or are crushing it on Tinder, Bumble, etc., with younger Western women in North America, UK, western Europe, Australia, NZ (and not ones in Asian, African, or South American countries) aged like 18-25, without paying them anything at all. If you’re using sugar daddy methods, that doesn’t count. Unless any are extremely good looking, the fact that no such guys have posted after 65 posts seems to confirm it’s not that easy.
I haven’t used Tinder, but I intend giving it a go (and I’m 7 years older than Caleb) after I get good pics taken this month. As you’d know, when you get a match on Tinder, it basically reverts to text game and you’ve got to start amusing a woman once yous start talking, plus with women aged 18-30, Tinder attracts massively huge numbers of time wasters who have no intention to ever meet anyone from it and are really just on for personal validation. So it’s hard enough to get through all the female keyboard jockeys. I wouldn’t go as far to say that 20% of younger women are into older guys. It’s probably like 2-5% and even if the statistic is higher than that, many of these younger women are ugly, completely average looking and/or are overweight.
M
Posted at 11:35 am, 12th January 2020Here is my personal research on the Tinder vs older guy problem.
Your Tinder match rate is controlled by 3 factors in the following order of importance:
(1) Age range of your target. If you fall outside of their age range, you will never see them and they will never see you*. This is a hard limit and is the biggest problem.
(2) How far down you are on the girls’ stack. The lower you are, the less likely she will ever see you, as most girls don’t swipe until they run out people to swipe.
(3) If she is going to swipe right on you. Most Tinder advice only focuses on this, to get good photos etc. And it matters a great deal, but out of the 3 factors, this is the least important. As if she never sees you in the first place, then she cannot ever swipe/match you!
I am not going to talk about (3) as that is just simply an issue of getting better pics, and older guys can pull that off easily. Older guys are having a tougher time because of the first two as:
(1) The default Tinder age filter is +-10 years when you sign up, and 99% of girls never change this. This is a massive deal, as even if you are just 1 year outside of the default 10 year range, your match rate will drop to almost 0 for those below that. This kicks in at 29, as then you will basically loose all 18 year olds. Which means that by 35, the youngest women who will realistically match you will be 25+. You simply do not even have a chance with the 18-24 crowd anymore!
(2) Your position in the Tinder stack is determined by your ‘Tinder ELO score’. The formula for this is not public, but it is believed to be a product of how many people swipe right on you, your own swiping habits, and also your age difference. Which means that even if you are in a girl’s stack, but you are 10 years older, your profile will be close to the bottom of her stack, so she will likely never see you.
To address both of these, you can do the following 2 things:
(1) Set your Tinder age to be within 10 years of your target. That is, if you wan’t to match with 21 year olds, the max age you can set your profile is 31. This goes against the BD rules of not lying. This is a tough one, as I hate lying too, but the choice is that you either do this, or they will never even see your profile. A mitigating step would be to hide your displayed age. Or hide your displayed age AND give your actual age in your profile bio. On reddit and other places, they say this will harm your chances, but it doesn’t mean that this doesn’t work, and I don’t have enough data to confirm how bad this is. Alternatively, consider Tinder as a non-serious dating platform where you don’t expect a great deal of accuracy in anything other than photos, so a bit of fudging is OK. The same way women use older/cropped/angled photos. So just put an age on your profile that is within your target range, and only give your actual age if/when directly asked. This is my current policy. How much fudging you can get away with, is a question that I’ve spent a great deal of time thinking as there are many factors to consider. I would be very much interested in hearing what others think, but in any case your Tinder age should be as close to your actual age as possible, while keeping in mind the +-10 year age filter.
(2) Use Super Likes to overcome the problem of never getting to the top of the girls’ stack so they could actually swipe on you. In case you didn’t know, what a super like will do is highlight your profile in blue (useless), BUT more importantly, it will also push your profile to the top of your target’s stack. Now, if you google this, you will find endless articles how girls hate super likes and it is creepy etc. Don’t believe this. 90% of my matches come from superlikes. Therefore paying for them, either via purchasing them on the go or via Tinder Plus is well worth it.
*PS: BD is incorrect (our outdated) where he says in his Older Man Younger Woman manual, that Tinder will show girls whose age criteria you are outside of, and therefore is a waste of time. Maybe this was true when he wrote this, but today at least, this won’t happen as the age criteria must be mutually met for her to be in your stack. You can verify this by registering a couple of fake accounts and cross checking.
gamblinsam
Posted at 12:22 pm, 12th January 2020Yes this is correct. However ASD refers to a woman’s willingness to get sexual quickly. My experience is limited to China, Japan, Taiwan, and the Phillipines. For these countries, ASD does not exist and women will go home with you and fuck you on the first date the vast majority of the time, and doing so also does not trigger the ‘buyer’s remose’ effect which Western women are often prone to (another aspect of ASD).
Regarding the guy talking about the age stuff on Tinder, the fix is simple. You set your age to 28, then set your profile to ‘don’t display my age’. This way you will match women ages 18 to 36, and you are not lying and don’t have anything to explain. Also, you’re wrong about 99% of women never altering the age preference anyway. It’s not like the girls who are into older guys are unaware of that fact, and they are going to adjust the setting accordingly. For this reason it might be better to set your age to at least 30, as this tends to be the bottom of the desired age range for the type 2 girls.
M
Posted at 01:04 pm, 12th January 2020I did mention the ‘hide my age’ trick, but if you research this on forums, most people will say that this will make you look creepy and will do more harm than good. When I used a female account to check my competition, the only guys that have done this were indeed quite shady/creepy looking. You will definitely loose matches by using it. Question is, will you loose more real life girls by:
(1) hiding your age, thereby signalling that you have something to hide
(2) displaying the incorrect age, and tell them if they bring it up.
Without knowing the size of each group it is impossible to make data driven decisions, as of which option is better. It probably also depends on how much you are fudging your age by. If you just fudge by 1 year, then you could just say that was your age when you signed up: Option (2). If it is < 5 years, and you are in shape, she is unlikely to notice it, but eventually when you tell her it may cause some drama. Probably still Option (2).
5 years or more, she will probably notice this right away, so the trade-off may favour option (1)… Or not? Maybe the gains going via route (2) will always offset the loss? Would be nice to hear from those that have experience of trying this.
GregB
Posted at 04:49 pm, 12th January 2020M, thanks for sharing your super useful advice. I’d be inclined to hide my age on my Tinder profile, but I wouldn’t look creepy in my pics, as I don’t look my age at all anyway, but I’d mention it if asked. Where are you located and what’s your current hit rate on Tinder. If you currently pay to get Tinder Plus, how many super likes can a TP user send out a day, or can paying TP subscribers send as many as they like.
DonQuibollox
Posted at 05:11 pm, 12th January 2020Great tips from M!
I signed up with Tinder here in SE Asia a few years ago using a fake FB profile. I was mid fifties then and I changed my age on FB to 26 just to see what would happen. Nothing much, was the answer. Then I found that FB wouldn’t allow me to change my age back to something believable, so I left it. I just added “Obviously not 26” to my Tinder bio. I get very very few matches, but I got two cute, 25 year old MLTRs out of it, one of whom I’m still seeing three years later. I have never paid Tinder a cent. My pictures are okay but not great (a cardinal sin, I know), but it’s such a low-effort trawl and my chances are so low that I can’t be bothered to upgrade them. I have a lot more success using OKC with a more truthful (but still massaged) age, but the women I get there trend much older than the Tinder girls.
NotAnExpert
Posted at 06:21 pm, 12th January 2020@PP
That’s very interesting and something I’ve been thinking about too.
I understand that you don’t want to share too many details about your own tree, but I have a few questions, if you don’t mind.
1). What’s your opener type? Is it an interesting/unusual question, or a statement, or something else entirely? Does it have a strong call to action? How long, 2-3 sentences? Is it a “screen hard” opener (only truly interested ones will reply) or a “cast your net wide” one?
2). Are there openers that work better or worse for the purpose of conversation tree? Did you specifically craft your opener to work better with a tree – or did you start with a killer opener and then added a tree to it?
3). How fast does the conversation tree grow? How many possible messages in each “step”?
For example… Your opener, 3 possible replies from her, then your second message (3 possibilities for each reply from her = 9 possible messages) and so on…
By the seventh message that would become pretty huge. Or is it less complicated than that?
4). So I understand it’s a totally separate conversation tree. How many messages to pitch the meet? Less than seven, more?
Thanks!
Incognito
Posted at 06:53 pm, 12th January 2020@gamblinsam
Yes, I looked up the definition of ASD. I was misunderstanding the meaning. So I pretty much agree with you, although I still find meeting a woman for coffee and asking her to meet again works better than going for sex on the first date. Obviously that doesn’t apply for women you meet in bars!
@M
Great explanation of the Tinder logarithm! Yes, I think entering a lower age and then setting to ‘do not display’ is a good way to go. Thanks!
Sandro
Posted at 08:28 pm, 12th January 2020@gamblinsam
I mean, do women actually read bios at all, if they don’t like the pic/your looks? I have seen women swiping left and right just like men do, within seconds.
I don’t do online dating at all because my attitude is like, if I can’t attract a woman face to face, then I don’t bother impressing her online. It’s an ego thing. And I don’t like dealing with mind games and online dating rules, you get a lot of them in real life dating already.
So I am curious and would like to know from @all of you: why do you guys actually do online dating?
1. Is it easier, than approaching or attracting women face to face in bars or daygame?
2. Would you say you have better chances online getting with younger and/or hotter women?
@BD: I have another question for you (actually anybody here): Do you think women judge you for not doing online dating at all? Sometimes I feel like it’s been viewing as creepy if you don’t participate in this. My personal opinion is I just think it’s boring and a waste of time, unless you are like a super hot guy maybe.
Gregb
Posted at 10:32 pm, 12th January 2020Online game isn’t a waste of time. It is much easier the more good looking a guy you are, but it’s just one of 4 or 5 options available. If you don’t like it, try day game, night game, or social circle game. They each have their pros and cons. If you don’t have a 9-5 full time job, ideally it’d be better to do 2 of them simultaneously, instead of just 1. Women don’t give a shit if guy uses online. It’s the 21st century.
Sandro
Posted at 06:38 am, 13th January 2020@Gregb
Would you say online dating provides the best success for you?
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:17 pm, 13th January 2020Now you’re just making excuses. You pick one or two things, at random if you have to, and experiment.
C’mon man. You’re smarter than this.
Right. And of those it’s most likely (80%) your photos, as I’ve said many times. It’s also very unlikely to be your openers if you’re already following my basic advice (keep them very short, don’t compliment appearance, etc). Openers are the least important part of the online dating process, by far.
If you’ve read my book on this, you know that I recommend shots that look candid from a professional photographer, not “professional photos” of you posing in a photographer’s studio. That would be a terrible idea.
I haven’t done any concentrated online dating a quite a while so my dated pics wouldn’t be helpful to you. As for others, you’re not going to find any men willing to do this publicly. Too many men are concerned with privacy.
Incorrect. Older men don’t need to take the time and effort to “hack” Tinder when other sites/apps (like Bumble) will work just fine for them. It’s a time management decision.
But hey, if you really want Tinder to work, feel free to take the 50-100 hours of your time and see if you can figure it out and let us all know when you crack the code.
I’d rather just use Bumble.
I think underestimate my income. You’d have to pay me 2,500 times my most expensive book in order for me to take that kind of time away from my current businesses.
Please remember that the entire point of this thread is to help put you in touch with other men who are doing well with online dating.
You’re welcome.
PP
Posted at 01:17 pm, 13th January 2020@NotAnExpert
Sure!
1) It is a joke, kinda over the top, creating a scenario between me and her, ending by a question (I don’t really want to be more specific). It’s two messages, one sentence each. This is also something important : always convey only one idea per message. It does not screen really, just maybe by the sense of humor? And even if the girl responds saying it’s bad/cheesy, I have some answers to that. I don’t really screen that early tbh, except by appearance. I screen later, when I plan my week out, trying to fit the more eager/interested girls first in my schedule.
2) I actually did not craft the opener for the conversation tree, but having used it for a while I saw the opportunity to map the entire conversation. I guess I could optimize a bit more if I crafted a new opener solely to start a new conversation tree, but I am having sufficient success with the one I currently use. Again, the opener is very consistent with my “normal” sense of humor.
3) Actually the growth is not linear, since many branches converge on the same “key” messages after a while. For example there is the opener and then 3 possible answers. But either the answer leads me directly to step 2 (“key” message), or I would need an additional message to reach step 2. Does that make sense?
I also drafted most of the answers so that they “plough through” the conversation, even if the answer is kind of ignoring one question of her for example, just to avoid complication. I think it has the bonus of seeming self-amusing.
It’s trickier and more free flowing, because at that point I will :
have to be a bit more normal to reassure her;
have to check her schedule, level of interest etc.
Therefore the whatsapp tree is a bit looser. There is a strong string of messages at the beginning (around 4-5 I would say) which work like the tree on the application, where I basically finish the joke (the whole previous conversation is based on the joke pitched on the opener) and segue into a more normal convo.
After that I have a few crafted messages (very good ones if I may say so lol) for the usual questions like “what do you do”, “where do you live” etc. that will sometimes spawn mini trees. But overall it looks more like a “real” conversation.
To answer your question, therefore, indeed I sometimes pitch the meet (like for real, because all along the conversation I indirectly state that a meet will happen) within 8-10 whatsapp messages, but sometimes I end up meeting the girls months after the match on the app lol.
And then comes the separate art of scheduling all those girls, gauging who has a chance to flake, who could come straight to your place, which girl would be available for a 2-days lay (like BD recommends), which are harder to pin down, and would therefore need a 1-date lay (spending more time on the date), who lives where, what are their logistics etc. IMHO this is all as crucial as the conversation on the apps and then whatsapp.
I hope I managed to help! Do you have some particulars sticking points you would like my opinion on?I have been at this for a while, well into triple digits lays from online game, so maybe I can assist!
PP
Posted at 01:23 pm, 13th January 2020I just saw M’s post, great content and value, thanks! It meshes with my experience. That is also why it is more statistically wise to use your super likes on girls within 10 years of your age (the closer the better) to avoid losing a super like giving it to a girl who will never see your profile.
gamblinsam
Posted at 06:46 pm, 13th January 2020We all know you aren’t this dumb. The point, quite obviously, is that if you did this, you would be offering your readers something of tremendously higher value than what you offer currently. I’m just shocked that as a businessman you can’t see that this is quite obviously by far the biggest financial opportunity for you and would be well worth your time. Literally nobody is out there hitting their head against a wall trying to figure out how to get laid on those old traditional sites.
If you read my sentence, you’d know that I didn’t say anything about shots in a studio. I said ‘all-professional’ shots. Women today are wary of this and want to see pictures that look like a friend snapped it with a phone while hanging out. This is my personal best guess as to why so many of us taking your advice are falling short but it’s extremely difficult to fix if you don’t have a very active social life with lots of friends.
Wrong. This stuff doesn’t work well on Bumble either. Worse in fact. (for me personally to the extent it has ‘worked’ 100% of my dates have come from Tinder) As for the other sites working ‘just fine’ that’s ridiculous because there are no women on them anymore. Not sure how you can deny this when anyone can log in to any of those sites and run a search for any city in the country and see for themselves. Time management?? Um, yeah, as in, you can send openers to 100% of the attractive women on those sites in almost no time at all since there are barely any. And as in ‘you’ll have shit tons of free time on your hands because you won’t have any dates to go on’.
Tinder and Bumble are IT. If you’re going to claim to have an awesome online dating system that works, but refuse to design it around the apps where 95% of the women are, you might as be honest enough to just retire now.
I suppose my problem is that your general Alpha 2.0 advice is so revolutionary and has changed my life so drastically, I can’t help thinking you’re going to be equally amazing with your online dating advice. But it seems you just don’t care enough to do it correctly and hey, with so many years of success behind you and moving towards leaving the scene entirely, I suppose I can’t blame you. Still. Lots of money left on the table. A system that works on the swipe apps is what EVERYONE is looking for.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:28 pm, 13th January 2020Good. Neither am I. Swipe apps is what it’s all about today.
Trust me, teaching older men how to get laid on Tinder vs other online dating apps is not my biggest financial opportunity. It’s not even close. I have at least 12 others that are greater within my three companies; I’m working on them now. But I appreciate the advice.
I can deny this because of the hard data I gathered here.
Incorrect. Refer to the above link as well as other comments in this very thread. Tinder and Bumble are two largest, but they are not it.
Where did I say I refuse to design my system around Tinder and Bumble? I have entire chapters devoted to these apps in my most recent online dating book and I’m going to focus on those even more in the upcoming book. They are critical and core apps to online dating, obviously.
All I said was I’m not going to bust my ass to figure out how older men can get laid using one specific app (Tinder), particularly when older men have other options (Bumble and other apps, sugar daddy game, and so on). If that one omission from my system really bothers you, so be it, I’ve heard your complaint. I’m not concerned about that one item.
M
Posted at 08:07 am, 14th January 2020@PP: You completely misunderstood!
On Tinder, any girl you can swipe on your stack, you can be sure that you are within their age range filter! You will NOT be shown girls whose age criteria YOU don’t meet!
So your takehome message is the exact opposite! For example:
You are 31, but see a girl in your stack who is 20. This means she deliberately increased the default age range, beyond +10 years, to include older men. So this means she is into older men, so you should definitely super like her.
What I meant was is that since most girls don’t change the default age filter, you will never see them, hence you will loose out. @gamblinsam commented that, girls can change their filter. Yes some do. But most of them really don’t. You can easily test this, register a 2nd male account that is within the 10 year age range of your target audience, and you will see literally 10x many girls to swipe on.
You could make an argument that
Type I girls: change age filter to be narrower (eg +-5 years)
Type II girls: change age filter to be wider (eg +-20 years)
Type III girls: will probably NOT change the age filter as they don’t care.
The trick is when setting up a Tinder account is to reach the greatest number of both Type II and III girls. You don’t want your age to be too low to miss out on Type IIs, but you also don’t want it to be too high to miss out on Type IIIs (an arguably much larger group)
PP
Posted at 09:28 am, 14th January 2020@ M
Really?! Indeed, that changes everything in that case… Do you have some proof by any chance? Is that something Tinder states officially? Not that I am doubting you, but it is in Tinder’s interests to show me as many girls as possible.
PP
Posted at 09:53 am, 14th January 2020@NotAnExpert
Sure! I thought I had replied, but maybe there was a bug.
It’s a joke, kinda over the top, where I create a scenario for me and her. It’s two messages, each ending with an easy-to-answer (yes/no) question, so yeah there is a call to action. The opener does not really screen at all, except maybe for girls receptive to this sense of humor? But it is not a very edgy or specific type of humor. I don’t really “screen” in my process until I get the lay, just by looks and availability basically.
To be honest, I came to the idea of the conversation tree after having used this opener for a while, and getting the same responses. So no, it was not crafted expressly for this purpose, no.
Good question. It does not get too complicated because most branches end up leading back to a “key” message at some point, which leads the convo forward. For example, my opener has 3 types of responses possible from the girl. The first of the response leads directly to “key” message #2, but second and third answers take a few more messages to loop back to key message #2. Does that make sense? There are about 4 key messages in the Tinder convo tree, and multiple paths to the last one (where I get the number), more or less directs.
On whatsapp the conversation is not as strictly mapped out, because it starts to be too complex and I’m lazy lol. There is one shorter tree that I use right when I get the number, following the principles of the Tinder tree (opener, key messages). After that I have a bunch of mini-trees to address specific questions or situations which may or may not arise during the whatsapp convo. Those mini-trees are more to address the girl’s “real world” concerns about me (needing to know what my job is, where I am from etc.) and logistical questions about the meet. Important point : I also have a bunch of funny pictures/memes that I use sporadically to engage girls that I am not able to fit in my schedule in the sort-term, or to revive some dead leads. I like to always be on the lookout in my daily life for funny/interesting stuff to send the girls on my rotation or my “leads”.
And after that comes the whole separate art of juggling the logistics of all those girls, judging their level of interests, knowing who is a 2-date lay (BD’s method) or who is harder to pin down, and therefore needing a single extended date etc.
Hope that helps! Do you have some particular sticking points regarding online dating? I know I’m just a dude on the internet, but I have had pretty good success with those apps (well into triple digit lays) and lots of free time at work lol so maybe I can help.
M
Posted at 09:59 am, 14th January 2020@PP: Don’t take my word for it, the only way to be a 100% sure is to test it yourself. Set up a female account and try to match yourself at different age settings.
If you cannot be bothered, just google “Unofficial Tinder F.A.Q. swipehelper”, where they confirm this. But you always want to verify these things yourself, as these guides are frequently out of date. For example, the swipehelper Bumble guide I think is out of date. As it seems that they changed their age criteria to be the same as Tinder’s (mutual inclusivity), rather than the much more older guy friendly system that they show you everyone that matches YOUR criteria, and then even if you don’t match the girl’s criteria, you still get into their stack if you swiped right on them. I don’t use Bumble much, so I am not a 100% certain of this though.
Matija
Posted at 09:53 pm, 14th January 2020Background info:
28 y old, from Croatia, caucasian , around 15 % bodyfat, decently looking and pretty fit(nothing too much but still can tell i workout for a while now), 186cm (6’1”) 85 kg.
Been doing cold approach nightgame/daygame while working in Patong, Phuket, Thailand in 2018 for 6 months, before that no real game, got 13 lays pre-game kinda. Now live in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam for past 11 months, started by doing some daygame and nightgame here but got discouraged pretty fast because 2/3 girls i approached didn’t know English at all or only basic English which was awful. Switched to tinder quite soon.
last 6 months :
29 new girls from online dating(27 tinder, 2 okcupid)
21 i consider cute or better
11 of 29 came directly to my place (half to hangout, half was stated that we gonna hookup)
past 3 months i got way more picky with girls i go for so i get less dates but i still average 1 new girl per week.
Apps used: Tinder, Badoo, Bumble, Okcupid, Facebook dating (last 6 months)
Facebook dating: got new matches consistently with very cute/hot girls but english level is awful or they never respond so never managed to get a date from that
Badoo: 500 matches ( swipe right till i have no more liked you) and i message only the girls that i find attractive, had 1 date but no lays
Okcupid: can’t check how many matches but i swipe right on everything and message the girls i find attractive, very low response rate tho, got around 10-15 numbers and 4 dates (2 lays) from okcupid
Bumble: used very briefly, decent response rate but seemed the girl are more provider hunters and older than on other dating sites 1 date
So after trying all the sites i realized that i get enough prospects, dates and number from Tinder and its not worth investing time in any other app then Tinder (swipping on tinder would be preferable)
Tinder: it started rough, when i came i had no luck, i went on a few dates that lead nowhere, so how i was improving my pictures, profile etc i got more and more matches and finally after a month since comming to Vietnam i got my first lay from tinder, then another one, but it was going very slow and it was very shitty, so i decided to buy tinder gold for a month and i got a few more lays. How i was improving my profile i was getting more and more matches but it was still not enough to get consistent dates. So then i asked my OLTR at the moment to do a photoshoot with me( i payed her 20 usd),we went shopping i bought a plain white tshirt, plain blue tshirt and used my old white shirt for shoot, she picked the best photos and edit them a bit. I made new account and put new pictures on it and after like less than a hour i had the 99 likes so i decided to buy tinder gold and my results skyrocket (like x10 times the matches than the non-gold account with old pictures), i was really commited and excited so i scheduled a ton of dates ( like 5-10 dates a week) sometimes with girls that were not very attractive. In last 6 months I got total of around 1000 matches and 27 lays from that.
How most of the times i get laid (from Tinder to my place):
Usual opener: Hey “name”, you look fun/interesting, what are you doing tonight ? ( sometimes i use something about her profile pictures/bio)
then its normal conversation( she usually ask about what i do here bla bla food etc), for like 3-10 exchanges, after that i send “we should grab a coffee/hangout sometime, text me your whatsapp/zalo number and we can talk there” i lose a ton of girls here
when i get a number depending how responsive she was (if she is immediatly DTF then i text straight away) in an hour on the whatsapp/zalo/FB etc. I usually text hi and sometimes a voice message saying something in vietnamese ( hey or whatever). we talk a bit more like traveling, vietnamese words, if her english is good i tease her or joke a bit, not too long like 10-15 minutes MAX then i pitch a date “i am free tomorrow around 7 pm for a drink, we should hangout”.
Usually I meet the girls 5 min walking from my place, so I get ready 5 min before the date (wax on hair, long black trouser, red/black nike sneakers, plain dark blue or t-shirt) , if the date was at 7, 2 minutes before 7 I text the girl “im running a bit late, let me know when you there”. When she texts me I get going from my place so I arrive 4-5 minutes after she does. If I don’t like where she is sitting we sit somewhere else, if it’s ok I sit in a position next to her so I can kino(not opposite). Depending on my mood I give her a hug or not, we sit down and start talking. When Im explaing where I work I grab her arm and show her on the arm how I get to my work from my palce, after that I start kino on legs hands face etc. after 30 minutes of random talk I ask : so what happened with your boyfriend ? we talk about it and I get a bit into sexual, depending how conservative the girl is. After about a hour I suggest we should walk around, if she is with motorbike we ride to leave the bike at my place(we go straight upstairs if she leave bike at my place), if not we walk around.
When we walking around I either go to convience store and buy water or we go directly to my place, the excuse for her to come to my place is either: lets hangout upstairs, play games at my place, watch movie, charge phone or drop water off in my room. Most girls go up and we hangout, I first time kiss her there(best results so far, also Vietnam is kinda judgemental about public display of affection), and slowly escalate, most girls are quite receptive, some it takes a bit more because its going so “fast”.
Thing is this way I get ONS-ed quite a lot (55%), but considering how little time, money and effort is needed to get laid consistently I don’t want to switch it.
12/29 lays were this way, 11/29 were directly to hangout/hookup at mine or their place, 1 girl was 3rd date and rest was 2nd date.
I tried bd style dates but: I am too much player and girls expect me to fuck them the first date, also the girls I go on date are 18-23 usually so they are usually busy/flakey so if I already get them on a first date and not bang them the odds on meeting them a 2nd time are extremely low.
KEY NOTES/ADVICE (that I learned from last 6 months):
-it’s a number game (there is no sure opener, pictures or bio that will make all the girls respond)
-pictures are everything (they have to be perfect)
-be fast, so many times girl that I had sex with showed me her tinder with 100 guys who are way more handsome and ripped than me but they were talking to her for 5 days while I asked her out after few texts
-never agree to her suggestion of a place (I did have a few lays but I spend more money, time and effort to get laid) a ton of times they are in for free shit
-don’t be boring!!! nr 1 compliment I get that I am fun to hangout with and how most guys are so fucking boring(talking about work, real estate, only food, boring stuff) also i make quite offensive jokes because my OI is insane, one girl had bad English and instead of can’t she said cunt so i was teasing her for the rest of the date( didn’t bang but made out)
-don’t be a pussy!!! Always go for kino, always ask sexual questions, go on dates, try to escalate
-there is no sure date (chances that she cancels or flakes for me are around 40%)
-there is no sure lay (there is so many shit that can happen that can piss her off, change her mind, so many hotter guy she can meet) that’s why I go for first day lays always
-look as best as you can when going to a date
-never get lazy, always open new girls, you never know when your current MLTR/FB can vanish from your life
-most of the times for me: it was better to go on a date with a new girl then to try to go on a date with a girl that I madeout with but no sex on first date.
-If you don’t workout start NOW! ( the amount of confidence and OI you get is insane bigger muscles)
-fitted clothes and really good hairstyle boost your looks for 2 points or more (in my eyes)
-never focus on 1 girl, schedule 3-4 dates per week if you can ( you will have at the back of your head, if this fails i dont give a shit i will have a new date tomorrow and probably bang her)
-also the learning curve sucks but once you get good at it your results will skyrocket, for me it was 1 lay first month, then 2 lays 2nd month, 3rd month was 6, 4th month 11 (the numbers are not exact but there was a moment when i realized that in the past 30 days i had sex with 11 different girls) my point is when you get pretty good and keep on improving the results will grow exponentionally, because if you do 100 mistakes and switch to 90 mistakes it won’t make much difference but when you do 10 mistakes and switch to 7 mistakes the difference is gonna be huge. Also the quality of girls you will be able to get will increase and you will be able to be more picky because you will know what to do.
Matija
Posted at 10:01 pm, 14th January 2020Background info:
28 y old, from Croatia, caucasian , around 15 % bodyfat, decently looking and pretty fit(nothing too much but still can tell i workout for a while now), 186cm (6’1”) 85 kg.
Been doing cold approach nightgame/daygame while working in Patong, Phuket, Thailand in 2018 for 6 months, before that no real game, got 13 lays pre-game kinda. Now live in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam for past 11 months, started by doing some daygame and nightgame here but got discouraged pretty fast because 2/3 girls i approached didn’t know English at all or only basic English which was awful. Switched to tinder quite soon.
last 6 months :
29 new girls from online dating(27 tinder, 2 okcupid)
23 i consider cute or better
11 of 29 came directly to my place (half to hangout, half was stated that we gonna hookup)
past 3 months i got way more picky with girls i go for so i get less dates but i still average 1 new girl per week.
Apps used: Tinder, Badoo, Bumble, Okcupid, Facebook dating (last 6 months)
Facebook dating: got new matches consistently with very cute/hot girls but english level is awful or they never respond so never managed to get a date from that
Badoo: 500+ matches ( swipe right till i have no more liked you) and i message only the girls that i find attractive, had 1 date but no lays
Okcupid: can’t check how many matches but i swipe right on everything and message the girls i find attractive, very low response rate tho, got around 10-15 numbers and 4 dates (2 lays) from okcupid
Bumble: used very briefly, decent response rate but seemed the girl are more provider hunters and older than on other dating sites 1 date
So after trying all the sites i realized that i get enough prospects, dates and number from Tinder and its not worth investing time in any other app then Tinder (swipping on tinder would be preferable)
Tinder: it started rough, when i came i had no luck, i went on a few dates that lead nowhere, so how i was improving my pictures, profile etc i got more and more matches and finally after a month since comming to Vietnam i got my first lay from tinder, then another one, but it was going very slow and it was very shitty, so i decided to buy tinder gold for a month and i got a few more lays. How i was improving my profile i was getting more and more matches but it was still not enough to get consistent dates. So then i asked my OLTR at the moment to do a photoshoot with me( i payed her 20 usd),we went shopping i bought a plain white tshirt, plain blue tshirt and used my old white shirt for shoot, she picked the best photos and edit them a bit. I made new account and put new pictures on it and after like less than a hour i had the 99+ likes so i decided to buy tinder gold and my results skyrocket (like x10 times the matches than the non-gold account with old pictures), i was really commited and excited so i scheduled a ton of dates ( like 5-10 dates a week) sometimes with girls that were not very attractive. In last 6 months I got total of around 1000 matches and 27 lays from that.
How most of the times i get laid (from Tinder to my place):
Usual opener: Hey “name”, you look fun/interesting, what are you doing tonight ? ( sometimes i use something about her profile pictures/bio)
then its normal conversation( she usually ask about what i do here bla bla food etc), for like 3-10 exchanges, after that i send “we should grab a coffee/hangout sometime, text me your whatsapp/zalo number and we can talk there” i lose a ton of girls here
when i get a number depending how responsive she was (if she is immediatly DTF then i text straight away) in an hour on the whatsapp/zalo/FB etc. I usually text hi and sometimes a voice message saying something in vietnamese ( hey or whatever). we talk a bit more like traveling, vietnamese words, if her english is good i tease her or joke a bit, not too long like 10-15 minutes MAX then i pitch a date “i am free tomorrow around 7 pm for a drink, we should hangout”.
Usually I meet the girls 5 min walking from my place, so I get ready 5 min before the date (wax on hair, long black trouser, red/black nike sneakers, plain dark blue or t-shirt) , if the date was at 7, 2 minutes before 7 I text the girl “im running a bit late, let me know when you there”. When she texts me I get going from my place so I arrive 4-5 minutes after she does. If I don’t like where she is sitting we sit somewhere else, if it’s ok I sit in a position next to her so I can kino(not opposite). Depending on my mood I give her a hug or not, we sit down and start talking. When Im explaing where I work I grab her arm and show her on the arm how I get to my work from my palce, after that I start kino on legs hands face etc. after 30 minutes of random talk I ask : so what happened with your boyfriend ? we talk about it and I get a bit into sexual, depending how conservative the girl is. After about a hour I suggest we should walk around, if she is with motorbike we ride to leave the bike at my place(we go straight upstairs if she leave bike at my place), if not we walk around.
When we walking around I either go to convience store and buy water or we go directly to my place, the excuse for her to come to my place is either: lets hangout upstairs, play games at my place, watch movie, charge phone or drop water off in my room. Most girls go up and we hangout, I first time kiss her there(best results so far, also Vietnam is kinda judgemental about public display of affection), and slowly escalate, most girls are quite receptive, some it takes a bit more because its going so “fast”.
Thing is this way I get ONS-ed quite a lot (55%), but considering how little time, money and effort is needed to get laid consistently I don’t want to switch it.
12/29 lays were this way, 11/29 were directly to hangout/hookup at mine or their place, 1 girl was 3rd date and rest was 2nd date.
I tried bd style dates but: I am too much player and girls expect me to fuck them the first date, also the girls I go on date are 18-23 usually so they are usually busy/flakey so if I already get them on a first date and not bang them the odds on meeting them a 2nd time are extremely low.
KEY NOTES/ADVICE (that I learned from last 6 months):
-it’s a number game (there is no sure opener, pictures or bio that will make all the girls respond)
-pictures are everything (they have to be perfect)
-be fast, so many times girl that I had sex with showed me her tinder with 100 guys who are way more handsome and ripped than me but they were talking to her for 5 days while I asked her out after few texts
-never agree to her suggestion of a place (I did have a few lays but I spend more money, time and effort to get laid) a ton of times they are in for free shit
-don’t be boring!!! nr 1 compliment I get that I am fun to hangout with and how most guys are so fucking boring
-don’t be a pussy!!! Always go for kino, always ask sexual questions, go on dates, try to escalate
-there is no sure date (chances that she cancels or flakes for me are around 40%)
-there is no sure lay (there is so many shit that can happen that can piss her off, change her mind, so many hotter guy she can meet) that’s why I go for first day lays always
-look as best as you can when going to a date
-never get lazy, always open new girls, you never know when your current MLTR/FB can vanish from your life
-most of the times for me: it was better to go on a date with a new girl then to try to go on a date with a girl that I madeout with but no sex on first date.
-learning curve sucks but when you get better your results will raise exponentionally (I started with 1 lay per month, then 2, then at one moments I realized I had sex with 11 different girls in past 30 days) think of it this way: when you start you are doing 100 mistakes, then you reduce that to 90 mistakes, was that a huge change ? not really you still do 90 mistakes, but when you are doing 10 mistakes and reduce that to 5 mistakes the difference is huge.
Matija
Posted at 10:12 pm, 14th January 2020@Jacob
i just read your comment, you have quite similar approach as i do, you got email or something where we can talk ?
Also i forgot to mention in my comment, i ALWAYS message the girl the morning of the date to confirm “so see you at 7pm tonight?” i don’t care if i lose some points becuase i had a few girls that said oh i almost forgot about it thx for reminding me and i had sex with those girls 🙂
M
Posted at 04:28 am, 15th January 2020I hope that when BD organises this data, it will be recognised that there are some important splits in the applicability of the advice:
1) West vs Outside of the West (especially if you are a rich white foreigner)
2) Within vs Outside of the 10 year age window
For example, @Matija’s results sound great, but he is
1) White guy living in a poor Asian country: he is probably in the top 1% of most desirable males there
2) 28: he is within the 10 year age filter of all girls
I applaud him for his Tinder success, but can his advice really help someone who lives in the West? And/or outside of the 10 year age range?
T
Posted at 05:03 am, 15th January 2020Overall the results here do not look too encouraging for online dating and swipe apps. As in I looked through and I don’t recall one person mentioning having consistent success with hot women in the 18-24 age range, especially if they are not a white man in Asia.
Matija
Posted at 07:15 am, 15th January 2020@M yeah i agree, but i must say i was doing poorly here on Tinder until i got really good photos, tinder gold and started doing things right because Vietnam from what i’ve witnessed traveling through SEA is the hardest territory to get laid.
From my experience back in my country (Croatia) there is veryy low amount of people who actually get laid from tinder or actually use tinder even in the capital (1 million people).
I will still have tinder gold and same profile when i go back to my home country in my couple of months, will see how it goes when i get back (expecting 0 results tbh) and i will update when i get info.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:30 am, 15th January 2020As always, I will only discuss techniques that apply to Westerners living in the West. My advice is only for Western world, as always.
(Everyone already knows it’s easier to get laid outside of the West. It’s useless (in my opinion) to target the expat demographic on how to get laid.)
I will do that as well and I already do. Standard game and older man game are two very different things, as I’ve explained in my books and blogs many times before.
Yes. His advice will help that kind of man. Your results won’t match his, but it will help.
Your thinking is too black-and-white. “I’m having trouble so nothing will help me” vs. “All of these techniques will help me but my results are still going to be less than X.”
Incognito
Posted at 03:40 pm, 15th January 2020Creating a Tinder profile that appears to younger women
Out of all this discussion, the one major thing I’ve got is that for a Tinder profile to work, you have to make the app think you are within ten years of the women in your target bracket.
I would greatly prefer not to lie to the women I meet, but I dont give a shit about lying to Tinder. I really like the idea of creating a profile with a younger age and then setting ‘Do not display age.’ Great idea! I can easily live with the idea that some women won’t like that, I just want them to see my profile in the first place.
But i just want to leave the age in my FB acxount the way it is, at my real age. It’s already not public, I never thought it was a good idea to let even my “friends’ know my exact birthdate.
So, can anyone tell me how to create the Tinder profile to tell them that I’m 15 years younger than I really am? Do you need a Facebook account to open a Tinder account? Does it check your birthdate? Any good work arounds?
Thanks!
NotAnExpert
Posted at 05:13 am, 16th January 2020@PP
Thanks! It’s very helpful and totally makes sense, especially the “key” messages. I don’t consider myself a bad conversationalist, so my plan is to go back and re-read some of my past conversations, note down some of my best stuff I improvised on the spot and incorporate it into a conversation tree.
On one hand my current sex life could be justifiably described as pathetic (got laid only once in the last 11 years), but it was mostly a combination of oneitis and lack of trying. On the other hand I’m optimist by nature, so I’m not easily discouraged – and I think the criteria listed by BD in this article (3 new girls within 5 months) are within my reach. But I was placed rather abruptly on afternoon shifts just about the time I started using online date sites seriously (back in September last year), so it totally messed up my scheduling, haha.
Two questions:
1. If I remember correctly, BD recommends exchanging about 10 minutes worth of messages (on the chat-style sites) before pitching a date, i.e. “don’t pitch a date too soon”. If a woman responds immediately to all messages, then the conversation tree probably allows for a pretty fast exchange. Do you ever feel the need to slow down before asking for a number or pitching a date – or was it never a problem?
2. I usually give up when I send a woman 6-7 messages on chat and she responds to every one of them with “yes/no” or a single word or two. So I was wondering, does a conversation tree help when a woman is barely responsive like that? It probably helps with moving a conversation forward, but does it help with actually getting to sex? Perhaps a girl is interested, but just shy or not a very good conversationalist, or whatever. In other words: did you (or anyone else reading this) have any experience when, for whatever reason, a woman was responding only very briefly to your messages, but still agreed to meet and later have sex?
Thanks!
Anasthaesium
Posted at 05:16 am, 16th January 202034 year old good looking Indian man
bangalore , India
Bumble and Tinder – although I have gotten matches from other platforms as well – only these two have reuslted in Lays / FBs / MLTRs
I have a very demanding business life and extremely efficient time management skills.
I try not to spend more than 10% of my time with women – this includes texting, chatting, swiping, dates , fucking , all of it put together.
When I get to 2 gorgeous plates / MLTRs/ FBs I stop swiping altogether, till one of them leaves me for LSFNTE . I try to do EFA but as it always happens the girls start pressuring me for commitment after 6 months.
I am very much like BD- I have a good grasp of economics, psychology and communication. So I take a pipeline approach to everything I do in life incl women and business.
I will leave the process of swipes to matches to interest to lay for maybe a guest post but right now let me address the topic at hand .
I have a profile which conveys I have my shit together, good looking, fit, highly educated ivy league stuff. From there, I make light conversations and get her off the app in 6 – 7 exchanges . When the chick thinks you are hot / cute/ good looking – 50% of your selling is done unless you look drastically different than your profile, while in person.
I usually make light sexual banter in the first date, talk extensively about their past sexual experiences and ex boyfriends. Initiate a lot of kino on hands, hair and cheeks. Make very sexual eye contact and triangle gazing . I have been doing this stuff since 19 so i know what am upto.
I am also articulate, cocky and funny so its not difficult to intimidate the girl into getting her to think of me as the successful entrepreneur , which I am not quite yet. By nature, am dominant as well , although none of these skills I was born with . So the chicks are usually sold by the sexual nature of the conversation on the first date and most often than not, after the drinks I invite her to my place to just chill and smoke .
They usually fuck on the first date, some the second or third.
Nowadays I am more careful about fucking on the first date after a chick gave the clap
I have slowed down meeting new women as I have been banging an FB, an MLTR and have another MLTR lining up soon , so am temporarily not hunting further.
Last 12 months – 10 new women
last 6 – 4 new women
All of them , a personal 6 – 9
Average age : 26 , median : 25, age range : 22 – 29
@sam : hit me up if you want to meet me in bangalore. You sound like we have a lot in common.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:55 am, 16th January 2020Set up a new Facebook account with your “new” age. Make sure to add a bunch of friends to it before you use it for Tinder though. Better for the algorithm.
No, but Facebook will complain if you modify the birth date on an existing profile. I think it allows you to do it twice then locks you in forever.
I know guys who create new FB profiles all the time and have a system for adding a bunch of friends to it, then cycling these new profiles into new Tinder accounts to be loved by the Tinder algorithm. I’ve never done this to the degree they’re talking about but it clearly works.
I’ll be honest. I’m not a fan of Tinder and the underlying technology behind it. Like many new apps, Tinder was amazing for about two years until it became saturated with attention whores. As I’ve shown repeatedly, Tinder still works for most men who put in the time and effort to make it work, but we clearly need a new and better system. And it will come. I’m waiting patiently. Until then, we need to hang tough and work with the apps we have available to us despite their downsides (Tinder, Bumble, OKCupid, etc).
Anchorman
Posted at 01:54 pm, 16th January 2020My personal experience with doing this: I have experimented with creating a Tinder and Bumble profile with my age 15 years younger than my real age, but of course still using my current pictures (which are good). And I have personally had very good success (i.e. slept with women 20+ years younger than me). There was ONE crazy bitch who met up with me just for the sole purpose of giving me grief, and funny thing was that she was my actual real age, so she was just mad that my SMV was higher than hers. YMMV.
Incognito
Posted at 07:37 pm, 16th January 2020Thanks very much, @BlackDragon and @Anchorman! Very useful!
The thing about attention whores is very true in Indonesia. Lots of women chat on FB about looking at the responses they get on Tinder, even though they never actually use it to meet guys. That’s why I prefer OKC. But since this post, I’ve been asking around and reading articles in the Indonesian media – the consensus is that Bumble works well at the moment.
Thanks again to all who posted useful, actionable information!
Tomee
Posted at 11:28 am, 22nd January 2020The specific apps/sites you used: Tinder, Badoo
The basics of what you did: I have a slightly suggestive bio and my frame is man-to-woman only (wife-husband roleplay, to be specific)
The city where you live: Prague, Czech Republic (Europe).
In 2019, I went on roughly 12 dates, 10 of which ended up in sex, plus several women I hadn’t seen since 2018 (and met online) contacted me and slept with me.
BONKO
Posted at 11:24 pm, 28th January 2020App: Tinder, Local website
Basic step:
Swipe right- 20 per day
Match-10% of 1.
Open-80% of 2.
First date-60% of 3.
First sex- 50% of 4.
FB- 3 person
MLTR- 2 person
Location: Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia