13 Jan Raising Your Kids When You Don’t Live with Their Mom
A decent percentage of you have children and do not live with their mother. If you don’t have kids yet, the odds are extremely high that eventually you will A) have at least one kid and B) end up not living with the child’s mother. So, this article either applies to you now or will within the next 20 years.
-By Caleb Jones
In the Western world, forever gone is the era where you could reliably stay with one woman for 20+ years to ensure you both raised your kids correctly. Too many people are having kids without getting married and the vast majority of people who get married and have kids get divorced.
I just mentioned a key point in there that I want to reiterate for my more traditionally conservative readers: raising your kids with you and the mom living together for at least 20 years while you raise those kids is the best way to raise kids. Yes. The problem is that this is very unlikely an option for you regardless of how religious or Alpha you are or how virginal your special lady is, but I’ve discussed that in great detail already before.
This means that we must take our emotions out of this, be objective, live in the real world, and acknowledge that in all likelihood you are going to raise some kids at some point when you don’t live with their mother. That’s not ideal, but that’s the way it is. Collapsing Western world and all that.
The good news is that you can raise high-quality children without living with their mom. (I will call this “remote co-parenting” for the remainder of this article.) I’ve done it. I co-parented two amazing kids as an Alpha Male 2.0 while barely even talking to their mother over the last 13 years. My son was 16 and my daughter was 8 when I made the conversion from beta male to Alpha Male 2.0 and divorced their mother. Today, both of my kids are highly intelligent, highly capable people. My son (now age 28) is a financially successful self-employed Alpha Male 2.0 who is also a perpetual traveler. My daughter (now age 21) is an amazingly talented artist and writer who is always the leader and envy of any group of women she spends time with.
Have I been a perfect dad? Nope. Not even close. That isn’t possible.
Have they had a perfect mom who raised them exactly how I would have liked? Nope. That isn’t possible either.
Doesn’t matter. You can raise happy and successful children despite all of that. The goal is to be a good dad, not a perfect dad. I’m not a perfect father but I’m pretty damn good at it and have worked hard in that area. That should be your goal.
Planned or Unplanned
Most men who engage in remote co-parenting are in that scenario because they stupidly tried long-term monogamy and, of course, it didn’t work. I was one of these men myself back when I was a young, stupid beta male.
A less bad option is to plan on this in advance. There are two variations of this.
One is to live with your OLTR wife but plan on the reality and overwhelming statistical probability that no matter how amazing your current OLTR is, she’ll probably move away from you at some point, and it will be before your kids grow up. Therefore, you need to plan on two parenting stages: stage one, where you live with their mom, and stage two where you don’t.
The other variation is to never move in with the woman and instead have kids with her while she lives apart from you from the get-go. You would sign a parenting plan well before you got her pregnant and establish custody, visitation, and child support. Then you’d co-parent remotely.
Doing this is a direct violation of people’s Societal Programming regarding the “correct” way to have kids, so pretty much everyone in your social circle will be horrified if you attempt anything like this, so I would advise not advertising you’re doing this to anyone (except perhaps to your very close inner circle) to keep the arguing, lecturing, and insults to a minimum (unless you’re ultra-outcome-independent like I am and just don’t give a shit).
Regardless of planned or unplanned, here are the basics of successful remote co-parenting, listed in no particular order.
Don’t Father Kids with Shitty Women
Obviously the first thing you need to do is make sure the woman you have kids with wouldn’t be a bad mother. A shocking number of men are really, really bad at this. Listen to me very, very carefully:
- Just because a woman is hot does not mean she would make a good mother for 18 years.
- Just because a woman is fun to date does not mean she would make a good mother for 18 years.
- Just because you really love a woman does not mean she would make a good mother for 18 years.
- Just because a woman is a Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim, or insert your favorite bullshit religion here) does not mean she would make a good mother for 18 years.
- Just because a woman has a college degree does not mean she would make a good mother for 18 years.
- Just because a woman is really smart does not mean she would make a good mother for 18 years. (As a matter of fact, the exact opposite argument can be made. Read this and this).
- Just because a woman’s parents are still married does not mean she would make a good mother for 18 years.
Seriously guys, you need to chuck all the bullshit fantasies you have regarding what kind of woman would make the perfect mother. I promise you that they’re wrong for the most part.
Instead of looking for the ideal future mother, focus on avoiding impregnating women who would make bad mothers. Here’s a few qualities of women you should avoid making kids with.
Women who…
- Use drugs (weed doesn’t count as “drugs” unless she does it literally all the time)
- Tend to be lazy
- Are really disorganized
- Are really anal and/or touchy (clean freaks)
- Never talk about ever having kids and/or don’t seem interested in the concept
- Don’t have any close, local family support (like their own moms) who could assist in the child raising
- Have absolutely zero homemaking skills (women who have absolutely no idea how to cook or clean)
If you avoid everything in the above list you’re probably going to put most of the statistics on your side. Again, that doesn’t mean she’ll be the “perfect mother.” Stop looking for such a thing. Just avoid someone who would make a bad mother.
Complete Kid-Focus During Father Time
Designate certain days of the week where you will spend time with your kids, and then completely focus on your kids during these days or time frames.
When my kids were little I designated every Saturday and most of Sunday as kid time. I had my daughter every weekend and my son sporadically on weekends as well (he was a teenager and had his own car and his own life by then). I would focus on work on Sunday evenings and during the daytimes Monday – Friday, focused on women during the Monday – Friday evenings, and always made sure that I had the weekends free for my kids.
On Saturdays I would make sure to spend time with my kids all day long, focusing on them, being a good dad. I would do this most of the day Sunday as well. This worked very well.
Alpha Male 2.0s have very full lives. Your women, your businesses, your fitness, your Mission, all of that takes time. It’s extremely important that you block off a decent amount of time every week to focus on your kids when you have them. If you can’t do this, please, for the love of god, don’t fucking have kids. They will just end up on welfare or in jail and then I will have to pay for them.
By the way, I think every week is ideal. Less than weekly is suboptimal. If raising your kids is not a priority then fine, do whatever you want, but if your goal is to be as good of a father as you can, you’ll need to see your kids at least two days a week in my opinion, more is better.
If you spend more than two days a week with your kids you don’t need to spend 100% of that time with them. My daughter always knew that if she stayed past the weekend and into Monday, Tuesday and beyond, dad needed to focus on his work and his girls during that time. Give your kids a good amount of focused, dedicated time, but don’t let them take over your life.
Be the Example
I talk about this in great detail in the two parenting chapters in my book, so read those if you want specific techniques. The bottom line is that the Alpha Male 2.0 doesn’t cower from or coddle his kids like the beta male father, nor does he yell at them and run their entire lives with an iron fist like the Alpha Male 1.0 father. Instead, the Alpha 2.0 father leads by example. While your kids spend time in your home or in your life they should be seeing you work hard on your businesses, have very happy relationships with women (or an individual woman; more on that in a minute), exercising regularly and eating a healthy diet (at least most of the time) and so on. If instead they see you mostly doing things like fuck around on YouTube, complain about your bills, smoke weed, and argue with your latest girlfriend you’re damaging your kids and you’re a piece of shit father.
Tightly Control Access to Your Women
As an Alpha Male 2.0 you should date all the women you like, but it’s not healthy for your kids, particularly when they are very young, to see you with a nonstop parade of different women traipsing through your home.
In my opinion, your kids should only have access to one woman who is either a long-term high-end MLTR or an OLTR. That means if you don’t have a high-end MLTR or OLTR in your life, your kids aren’t allowed to meet or even see any of your women, even if your women ask (and they will) and even if your kids ask (and they will if they’re daughters; sons usually don’t give a shit).
This was the rule I followed. I kept my FBs and MLTRs far away from my kids. The only time I allowed a woman to spend any time with my kids was when she had been around for a long time and was officially a high-end MLTR or OLTR. This worked very well.
One could argue that as your kids get into their older teenage years, perhaps 16+, you could lighten this up a little and if they see a woman or two that might be okay. My daughter lived with me full-time from age 15 to 18 and I admit I broke the above system a little during that time, but she was already much older by then and understood the basics. This is all debatable though; I don’t know the “best” age for when you can relax this system and I don’t think anyone else does either. I just know that if your kids are small (well under age 16) you need to keep this side of your life away from them.
Parenting is obviously a big topic. If there are more requests for this topic I will discuss it further in future articles.
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Viking
Posted at 06:19h, 13 JanuaryGood but big topic. How and about what have you told your kids about your lifestyle? Have you given your son the same advice as you do here and told your daughter what she should expect men to be?
hollywood
Posted at 07:16h, 13 JanuaryI have my daughters every other week for the entire week. They have only met one woman who was high-end MLTR, and one FB they met randomly because she saw us in public but that wasn’t really much of a “meet”. The high end MLTR first met my daughters who were around 12 at the time, at a professional baseball game I had suite access to and invited all of my friends and family. After that, she would see them sporadically for a few minutes here or there. The only decent amount of time she spent with them was doing their makeup for a Dance Recital, and doing their makeup and costumes for Halloween.
My daughters don’t ask about my dating much. They come to realize that any woman I “hang out” with likes me in a romantic sense. They also understand I am not much looking for a serious girlfriend. They are now early teens. I’m not sure if they realize why I shower, shave, and leave to “hang out with xxxx(woman)” but I am honest with them and will say, “Girls, I’m going to hang out with Angelica for a few hours, call if you need anything.” They know that at least 2 or 3 times a week I go “hang out” with a different woman for a few hours after getting showered and shaved and cleaned up.
They don’t ask too many questions about me dating and such, but when people ask about me to them, and mention dating or anything like that, they say without hesitation, “Dad doesn’t need any girlfriend in his life, we are the only women he needs.” Lol
I’ve made it a point to let them know that marriages don’t seem to work these days and that I am not too interested in ever getting remarried. While I’ve told them marriage doesn’t seem to work, I haven’t given them a good answer of what they can do in place of that in their own lives. I’m really not sure what exactly I should say regarding that.
Redbaron
Posted at 07:54h, 13 JanuaryThe chances that most younger Millennials and Gen Zer’s in the Western World will even have kids doesn’t seem as high as you state. The financial situation for younger people in Western countries is getting bad enough that the only guaranteed way to have a solid financial life over the next 20 years is to adopt Alpha 2.0 financial/relationship models and not have kids. According to this study, it costs $2.3 million in 2019 US dollars to raise a family of 4 over the course of 20 years. I’m sure lots of younger Millennials/Gen Zer’s are looking at these figures and being put off from raising a family after seeing them.
Jason ferdton
Posted at 08:29h, 13 JanuaryIn the vein of @redbaron, slightly OT but there has to be some way to minimize the typically cited cost figures associated with children. It seems to prohibitively large (guy in kid twenties here).
Incognito
Posted at 09:19h, 13 JanuaryHmm. Caleb, I saw another forum with a post attacking this blog, including a lot of fairly nasty and racist ad hominem attacks. Your son came on line and defended you with a fair amount of grace and humor, with a link to his IG account. A lot of people were claiming he was bullshitting and wasn’t your son, but I had a quick flick through his account — he certainly seems to read the same books that you promote and to have a good attitude towards life. I won’t include the details of the account in case it’s not something you really want out there, but it was quite interesting.
Darren
Posted at 09:38h, 13 JanuaryAfter my divorce I pretty much followed all of your above rules with my daughters. I’d be interested in knowing more of your specific tips for raising daughters as an Alpha 2.0.
bluegreenguitar
Posted at 11:15h, 13 JanuaryI would definitely love to hear more about this.
There’s a lot of dating info for younger guys and also for guys that are separated/divorced with kids, but not much info about AM2.0 situations raising kids. All 3 are important situations, so it does seem like a very important topic for AM 2.0, at least for me.
What would be some good places to start to learn more about finding “good mothers”, statistics, etc?
In a sort of similar vein, what might be some of the (more/less obvious) parenting activities that are important for a father to do, and what would be possible to “out-source” (meant in the most respectful way possible)?
I scanned the study (https://www.everquote.com/cost-of-raising-family/) and the 4 biggest costs were housing, food, taxes and insurance, so if a person could find a way to reduce these costs, they would save – I know that’s obvious – simple but not necessarily easy.
Thanks!
Federico
Posted at 12:05h, 13 January-Request for more!
Caleb Jones
Posted at 12:35h, 13 JanuaryEverything (outside of specific details). My kids are both grown.
Of course.
Yup, right here.
Utterly incorrect. People, particularly young people, don’t refrain from having kids just because they think that can’t afford them. (And if they did, the world would be a better place.)
People, particularly young people, don’t study incomes, budgets, and macroeconomic data and then make the decision to have babies accordingly. Ha! They just decide they want kids (or get pregnant by accident) and just have them because they want them. Why do you think 48% of US households are on some form of government assistance?
The vast, vast majority of GenZ and Millennials will eventually have a kid (probably just one) by the time they are 40 years old. Just watch.
Assume a more minimalist lifestyle, enforce it forever even if your wife resists (and she will; women hate minimalism, mothers even more so) and/or move to a third-world country to have kids.
As always, ad hominem attacks on other websites are good for me because A) they show the validity of my content to the entire audience when people purposely avoid attacking my content and instead attack me or my family (if my content was bad they’d be attacking my content, but notice they never do this, it’s always something about me personally; that’s a strong endorsement of my content) and B) my book sales always spike upwards every time I’m attacked. The last time I was attacked we had a all-time record-breaking ebooks sales week (almost $7,000 in book sales in just one week not including Amazon or audiobook sales). It was awesome!
I will definitely follow-up this article with more on this topic. Added to the list.
No where specific, but just be careful. If you go to far with this stuff you’ll get into insane, guy-Disney, right-wing Unicorn Woman territory as I showed here.
Key
Posted at 13:17h, 13 JanuaryI have a vasectomy. I will NEVER know what the inside of a family court looks like.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 14:12h, 13 JanuaryNot if you get a divorce. Men with vasectomies can still get divorce raped.
Dan
Posted at 15:15h, 13 JanuaryWhat books do you recommend on parenting? I know Brian Tracy has one or two but not read any of his.
I have followed pretty much what you state. My boy is four and since he was two me and his mom broke up and co parent separately. He’s genuinely amazing but I am always winging it as a parent. Any recommended reading would be good?
joelsuf
Posted at 16:05h, 13 JanuaryYeah I pretty much never saw my father do this after my mother left us.
But then again, I never saw my father do this either. He would just get home from work, shout at me to do schoolwork or get a better job or whatever, drag me to temple, go on rants about how Israel should rule the world and how everything would be better if we moved there (dude was openly racist and was an Israeli supremacist), and other hilarious shit that I never took seriously.
Meanwhile, I’d see my mother like once or twice a year. Zero effort on her part.
Insane and stupid. My parents sucked. It’s been almost 15 years since my father died but I really thought he spiritually died after my mother left us. He was definitely broken and just became addicted to work and religion. Wanted me to do the same.
Federico
Posted at 20:11h, 13 JanuaryI learnt that the hard way. You can’t tell your wife (much less your ex, as also the law will not let you) to adopt a minimalist style. I still see my friends saying they spent money on X because their wives insisted. I believe that is because they still CAN… but if they are suddenly fired, disabled or under any circumstance that forces them to lower their lifestyle, they are going to have a real issue with the mother of their kids.
That’s one of the main reasons of why everybody should take into consideration what Caleb says about, budgeting, prenups and any agreement BEFORE having kids.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 21:43h, 13 JanuaryMan. That’s a tough one. The problem is most books on parenting are written either for mothers or beta males. There are parts of some parenting books that I like but there is no one single book on parenting I can recommend for Alpha Male fathers that I can ever remember reading.
Even Brian’s stuff on parenting isn’t 100% great (lots of traditional Republican/Christian stuff in his parenting style), but yes, that’s a good of a place to start as any, since most of his parenting stuff isn’t bad.
Correct. She’ll just have a meltdown. The only way to be minimalist and married is to marry a woman who was a minimalist well before you ever met her (and good luck with that).
Well, yeah. That’s most men in TMMs. It’s standard.
Pink Firefly and I have A) separate finances and B) no children together, so I’ve avoided at least 90% of these problems. But if you’re going to get into a TMM, then yeah, be prepared to hand your wallet over to your wife, either immediately (if you’re beta) or eventually (if you’re an Alpha Male 1.0).
Yup. And get an OLTR Marriage if you’re going to settle down with a woman.
Incognito
Posted at 21:59h, 13 JanuaryI think Brian Tracey once wrote about his contempt for pre nups, saying you shouldn’t go into a marriage already planning to get divorced. But he’s an old man. Maybe his ideas on that made sense when he was younger. He’s only ever been married once? No public indications that he’s not monogamous?
Federico
Posted at 22:46h, 13 JanuaryHaving a support network of your own when you are divorced with kids is crucial. I am struggling with it now, because I can’t share the same network with their mom because the relationship sucks, but I THINK that these things are important:
I have a nanny and a housekeeper! BIG BIG BIG issue here. Best money invested
I am searching for a club or anything similar to attend with my kids. Still struggling with that.
I try not to work while I am with them (I am location independent and self employed with no fixed time schedule) BIG issue!
I DO let them have screen devices (TV, tablet, computer) while I REALLY need to work.
I spend time with them ALONE. No women.
I organize barbacues with MY friends and their kids (I live in a farm). No women with me here either.
Hope this helps someone. And me, of course, with the responses!
KirthWGersen
Posted at 01:46h, 14 JanuaryI have done things a little bit differently with regard to letting my children (daughter 13 and son 9) know about my dating life.
My ex is monogamous and has a dutiful boyfriend she is not in love with and but who adores her. They spend a lot of time together including when the kids are with her (one week on, one week off; the weeks I don’t have the kids I pick them up from school, so I get to see them almost every day). They also split up practically every week and get back together a couple of days later. It is closer to society’s ideal than my life, but in my opinion it is a less stable and less healthy model for my children.
This has caused a lot of problems with my daughter who feels like her life is being invaded by this new guy (he is a nice person and spends a lot of money on them, pays for holidays, meals and fun; but she feels he is in the way). I have an excellent relationship with their mother and we talk about these difficulties as a family. I’d have to say I chose a really good woman to get divorced to.
I felt it was important for my kids to know I was seeing women so they would not think I was some kind of hermit or that there was a chance of me getting back with their mother.
So I have gradually let them know I am seeing multiple women, but don’t want to have a girlfriend and certainly don’t want to live with a woman at least until my kids have left home.
This has made them feel much more secure, as they know that life with me is not going to suddenly change and their home with me is just for us.
They feel they are my priority when they are with me.
Women naturally feel like they will always come second to my kids. Sometimes they mention it. I confirm it and they respect me for it. Even the most selfish woman knows it is supposed to be that way and that the surest way never to see me again is to get in the way of my relationship with my children.
I have introduced a couple of women to them: but only after knowing them for at least six months. I don’t want to annoy my kids with having to get to know a stream of women and then never seeing them again. But when I feel a woman will be in my life for a long time in some capacity (I don’t really distinguish between friends and lovers, but some of them end up being more friends than lovers), I am happy for them to interact with my kids to a limited and controlled extent.
These two women behave just the way I want them to around my kids. Basically, they say hello, are friendly and polite, but do not expect my kids to talk or be friends.
That way my kids are able to engage with them on their own terms, with no pressure or expectations.
I was surprised to find that my very religious mother greatly approves of my choice of lifestyle. She prefers me to have a life full of women (I’ve had a vasectomy) as she recognises that it creates a more stable life for her grandchildren: there is no threat of a step-mother coming in and taking resources and attention away from them.
London Boy
Posted at 02:56h, 14 JanuaryWhile I agree with BD in principle, I disagree with him on the specifics.
I am a single father myself with a daughter with my ex-partner. The reason my relationship with my ex broke down was because of several reasons:
a) I stupidly had a baby, unplanned of course, when I was 26. Way too young as BD would clearly say and he was right
b) I was a party boy first then a father and responsible partner second. So I wasn’t acting like an alpha 2.0 but I was behaving like a teenager but I was 26 and in our western society, 26 is the new 19 lool.
All of this was 5 years ago by the way. At 30, and with the benefit of hindsight, I can see what I did wrong.
Considering the above, of course my relationship with my ex detonated. While I agree that it’s unlikely your marriage will last a lifetime, I think 5 years is way too pessimistic, BD.
I think, and I am just speaking anecdotally here, that if you’re an alpha 2.0 husband(you work hard always, remain driven, never get complacent, keep your physique, make money for the family, care about your wife’s feelings, don’t give your wife or kids drama, give her great sex when she wants it but don’t always concede to her demands to keep that level of attraction) then your marriage will last well over 5 years.
Now at some point yeah you may need to do an open relationship but it needs to be earned. Unless you’re in the same league as George Clooney financially and in status, you can’t tell an attractive, quality woman that you want an open relationship six months into dating her.
Don’t give me this crap about “The Talk.” The fact is a quality woman can have sex with a man anytime she wants, with whoever she chooses. So if she wants to be in a monogamous relationship, it’s because that is what she fucking wants at the time. You saying to her you want an open relationship so early will disgust her and she’ll dump your ass for another alpha or a beta.
Once you’ve been a consistently good husband and father for at least 5 years, given her at least two kids, then yeah, at that point, you can propose an open relationship to her and you’ll most likely be met with little resistance from her. But it has to be earned.
Fanguy
Posted at 07:41h, 14 JanuaryOr just dont have kids. No headache.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:17h, 14 JanuaryWhat percentage of men are going to do literally all of those things and keep it up for years on end? Maybe 5% at best? Thus the need for this article.
And remember what you just said: I am just speaking anecdotally here.
I am not speaking anecdotally. I’m speaking using data gathered over the past decade.
Correct, that would never work, that’s why it’s not part of my system.
Then explain how myself and thousands of other men have been doing this successfully and consistently for a decade.
Incorrect. Conditional monogamy doesn’t work and the vast majority of men who try it have their women leave them. Read this.
As I always say, you have opinions, but I have data. Also, you’re Nigerian and you’re demonstrating a lot of Alpha Male 1.0 cultural programming in what you’re saying. Remember that I’m talking about the Western world only, not Africa and not your Nigerian community in London.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:17h, 14 JanuaryCorrect, but most men are not going to follow that advice. Most men reading these words will have at least one kid before they turn 40.
Thus the need for this article.
London Boy
Posted at 16:28h, 14 JanuaryAs I always say, you have opinions, but I have data. Also, you’re Nigerian and you’re demonstrating a lot of Alpha Male 1.0 cultural programming in what you’re saying. Remember that I’m talking about the Western world only, not Africa and not your Nigerian community in London.
I will admit that there is still some alpha male 1.0 programming residue still lingering within me despite me having read your blog for the best part of 3 years now (I also have the Unchained Man book, a lot of Nigerians I have showed those sections to love the business advice you give). But for me, it’s not conditional monogamy in the sense that you’ve described it.
I’ll tell my wife, from the onset of the relationship, that I will be monogamous with her and only her but I will tell her that at some point, after 5 years of it, I may have a side woman. It’s why when I have a traditional wife (later becoming an OLTR) I will screen her and ensure that she is very sexual and has had sexual partners and is also quite liberal so she’s open to the idea of an open relationship down the line.
It will be hard to find such a woman but not impossible. There are women who want stability and freedom at the same time and with an alpha 2.0 guy. But during the early years of marriage and when you’re raising your kids, do you really want an open relationship from the onset? Would you not want to have each other all to yourselves for a while before opening up the relationship?
Thing about me is I have slept with loads of women already. So I will not immediately need to have an FB once I am married. I feel like an open relationship is earned once you’ve both earned it after a number of years a monogamous, married couple. The open relationship will bring new energy into the marriage but the marriage should not start as an open one.
London Boy 1
Posted at 16:31h, 14 JanuaryWhat percentage of men are going to do literally all of those things and keep it up for years on end? Maybe 5% at best? Thus the need for this article.
As I always say, you have opinions, but I have data. Also, you’re Nigerian and you’re demonstrating a lot of Alpha Male 1.0 cultural programming in what you’re saying. Remember that I’m talking about the Western world only, not Africa and not your Nigerian community in London.
I will admit that there is still some alpha male 1.0 programming residue still lingering within me despite me having read your blog for the best part of 3 years now (I also have the Unchained Man book, a lot of Nigerians I have showed those sections to love the business advice you give). But for me, it’s not conditional monogamy in the sense that you’ve described it.
I’ll tell my wife, from the onset of the relationship, that I will be monogamous with her and only her but I will tell her that at some point, after 5 years of it, I may have a side woman. It’s why when I have a traditional wife (later becoming an OLTR) I will screen her and ensure that she is very sexual and has had sexual partners and is also quite liberal so she’s open to the idea of an open relationship down the line.
It will be hard to find such a woman but not impossible. There are women who want stability and freedom at the same time and with an alpha 2.0 guy. But during the early years of marriage and when you’re raising your kids, do you really want an open relationship from the onset? Would you not want to have each other all to yourselves for a while before opening up the relationship?
Thing about me is I have slept with loads of women already. So I will not immediately need to have an FB once I am married. I feel like an open relationship is earned once you’ve both earned it after a number of years a monogamous, married couple. The open relationship will bring new energy into the marriage but the marriage should not start as an open one.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 19:10h, 14 JanuaryWhite guys don’t like that idea either. Men’s feelings on the matter aren’t relevant in a world where long-term monogamy doesn’t work.
As I’ve said before, if you want to be long-term pair-bonded with a woman, your two options are: 1) embrace a system we know for a fact doesn’t work or B) embrace a system that may make you really emotionally uncomfortable for a while. They both suck, but I don’t use systems in my life that don’t work so I know which one I’d pick.
And it won’t work, as I explained in that linked article, because women don’t adhere to guy-logic when in a relationship with a man. Even if you get her to agree to it, in 5 years as soon as you fuck another woman your wife will consider it cheating (even though she agreed to it 5 years ago, which will be irrelevant to her) and then she’ll explode, and you’ll get a mountain of drama and probably a divorce.
Yes and so will you. A) You will want to fuck other women regardless of the age of your children. B) It’s much less likely your wife will want to fuck other men when their time and emotions are consumed with taking care of little babies (not impossible, but much less likely).
I’m outcome independent so I wouldn’t care, but you might. Irrelevant. The temporary monogamy model you’re fantasizing about (and that’s exactly what it is, a fantasy of your own concoction not backed up by any data or facts) doesn’t work.
That’s great. Irrelevant to my point.
Yeah, you feel. I know you feel. You can feel that 2 + 2 = 5 because your culture raised you that way all you want, but numbers still don’t work that way. Women don’t either.
Try it and you’ll see.
Tank
Posted at 05:25h, 15 JanuaryThis is a great mature article, BD. The majority of people do want kids eventually and I personally know very few people who are willing to acknowledge the obvious fact that chances are you will not be living with the mother of your kid at some point, and you actually have to plan for this before you even consider having kids.
There are some things I disagree with you on, but on this matter I’m 100% in alignment with your viewpoints. I’d say the only possible acceptable way to have kids nowadays is if you have: 1) enough wealth that you can financially support the kid as well as at least two full time (say mother and grandparent or full time nanny) caregivers at least for the first several years while only working ~30 hours per week (since you also need to make time for yourself (including dating)…and now the kid) 2) you have two homes, one for yourself and one for the kid and its caregivers 3) you have a legal situation in place where there is a strong negative financial incentive for the woman to leave you and run off with the kid (e.g. any child support she can receive is far less than the support she gets by this system) and you have an agreement in place for amicable co-parenting for when the romantic relationship ends.
This means you have to be extremely financially successful to have a kid in this day and age, and it’s completely foolish to do so if you aren’t. This is unfortunate, and of course it’s because of government policies regarding family law, but that’s also blindingly obvious if you look at any statistics regarding how common single parent households are and the fertility rate in most western nations. But that’s how it is now, so for the very important decision of whether or not to have kids, and when, these facts must be taken in consideration.
There’s a recent new movement of “platonic parenthood” which completely disconnects parenting from romantic relationships, that’s also worth considering, having whatever sort of dating and sexual life you want, and then just making an agreement with a woman to be co-parents. This does address the problem of having the navigate the transition of a romantic relationship to platonic coparents that will obviously happen at some point in the child’s upbringing, and also allow you to judge moral character and caregiving qualities above sexiness in the choice of a mother but there’s still the risk of the woman in the middle of it meeting a beta or Alpha 1.0 to convince her to take the kid and have a more traditional set up. So all of the above considerations should still be put in place. And obviously this makes having separate homes for yourself and the kid even more a necessity.
CTV
Posted at 09:28h, 15 JanuaryAnd this is why I think they should do free Vasectomies for men that want them either by Planned Parenthood, in the Prison system, ETC..
Caleb Jones
Posted at 09:41h, 15 JanuaryHaving children today is only for higher-income men. Back in the 1970s my dad was a low-income worker who was able to support a family of seven on his shitty income. Today a low-income man can’t even support himself; he has to live with family or roommates.
So yes, in terms of the collapsing Western world today: high income first, kids second. Or else don’t have kids.
(And again, low-income and average-income people aren’t going to make this analysis and are going to continue to have kids anyway.)
Anyone who experiments with any models outside of TMM (which we know doesn’t work) are heroes. The more people who try alternate models the better off we’ll all be in the long run.
That would be a band-aid solution. Just eliminate the welfare state. Then it doesn’t matter who has kids and who doesn’t.
hollywood
Posted at 11:17h, 15 JanuaryWhich will never happen since politicians can promise free stuff and more than half of the country will vote for the free stuff to keep coming. Part of the reason for the Western collapse? Is a Democratic Republic destined to always eventually fail due to this loophole of sorts?
Paul
Posted at 12:07h, 15 JanuaryJust a passing comment…
I have kids 19f, 17f, 13m. Now divorced. Do EVERYTHING Caleb says as best as you can.
Regards.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 14:21h, 15 JanuaryCorrect.
As I just showed here, even Trump supporters love the welfare state.
Yes. Perhaps the biggest reason.
Yes. The founding fathers said as much. And they were right.
That’s why, if you’re really interested in politics as a big part of your life (and I am not) you should focus on how to build the next country after the USA / West collapses, not how to save the USA / West, which are already fucked.
London Boy
Posted at 00:02h, 16 JanuaryWhile I know the data works against me, I know that I can make a traditional monogamy marriage work for a short while and then transition into an open relationship. I understand your argument BD, but I do feel if you can find the right woman (and no she’s not a unicorn, there are women out there like this, even if it’s just 5% I will find them) who is fully aware of the limitations of monogamy.
But as a man, you just need certain conditions in place. Firstly, you need to be older than 30 and have dated around and slept around before you even consider kids (something I didn’t do). As BD says, don’t screen women you’re having casual sex with, so long as they are attractive, sleep with them. I’am black and I once had sex with a blond white girl who was quite racist to black people despite fucking black guys lool. I would never make her an OLTR but she was hot, so I slept with her a few times as a a short-term FB.
Anyway,the second set of conditions is you also need to make sure you’re hardworking, have drive, look good relative to your age if not even better, confident and masculine and you must maintain this till your dead. Then find a wife who is both liberal and conservative – it’s hard but not impossible. She’s sexual and has enough self-awareness to understand that monogamy doesn’t work long enough but she’ll give it a try for a while with you so long as you remain alpha 2.0 then when it’s time to go open relationship, she is unlikely to give you drama as sh was always open to the idea in the first place as she has always been sexually liberal.
But again, when you go open, you must remain alpha 2.0. Men, we don’t get to relax or get complacent. Everyday we must alpha 2.0. That’s life.
Maybe I am just not as outcome independent as BD, but I want a traditional monogamous marriage, with all the legal safeguards of course, for a short while. Even if it’s only last 5 years. I want to experience the disney fantasy for a while but I am self aware to know it won’t last and I am content with that.
Again, men marry the wrong women and have kids with the wrong women. You need to be making good money and be very hardworking, driven, mascunline etc. It’s not easy maintaining a woman’s interest in this modern age but it is what it is. But if you have the conditions in place I have mentioned, you can have both a traditional monogamy marriage and then an open one, with a woman and have kids, and avoid divorce.
It’s hard? Fuck yes. But nothing worth it is ever easy.
Incognito
Posted at 02:02h, 16 JanuaryIt’s funny that we get a lot of people convinced that this is possible, but never any reports from anyone who has ever actually done it.
London Boy
Posted at 02:31h, 16 January@Incognio
My father has done it although, as a caveat, he’s Nigerian and so the culture is different from that of the West. It’s still very patriarchal.
But in the UK, where I was born and raised, I have seen a few examples of it. Women who have been with their husband for years and years and have kids. And what I have noticed is that the husband/father is very alpha but he is a chilled alpha rather than an angry, controlling alpha 1.0.
The problem is men are either controlling alpha 1.0s or pathetic betas – both of which women get bored of relatively quickly.
Becoming an alpha 2.0 is hard – I’ve been at it for 3 years and it’s just starting to become internalised within me. But I do believe, in the western world, you can have a long and mostly happy marriage with a woman if you’re alpha 2.0 and you maintain that standard throughout.
I know the world was once all yours white guys but it’s not anymore. Just like the rest of the ethnic races, you lot have to work hard to get and maintain what you want, including your woman and the family you build with her. It won’t last forever, women will get bored no matter what, but it will last longer and she will keep returning to you anyway.
But back to the point of having kids and the conditions necessary, everything BD has said is completely true. Take it from someone who idiotically had a kid at 26 when I was still a full-on party animal and now has to deal with a dominant, Italian baby mother, you don’t want that for yourself haha
John Smith
Posted at 07:08h, 16 JanuaryAll other problems with your plan aside, how do you know she’s the right woman before you marry her? You might “feel” like she’s the right woman, and she might say the right things, but you won’t know for sure until five years in when you try to open up the relationship and she most likely leaves you.
I don’t know the percentages, but even if we accept that 5% of women will agree to that at the beginning AND still be ok with it five years later, there has to be a larger percentage (10%? 20%?) that will agree to it and either forget or not care what they said when you got married, and I don’t think you have a reliable method to determine which is which.
London Boy
Posted at 07:49h, 16 January@John Smith
This is why, as BD has numerous times, you should only screen for an OLTR. For me, I would never make a woman below the age of 25 an OLTR. I know there is an obsession(again, it’s with you white guys from what I see on here and in the wider mansophere) with being with young girls but that’s stupid for an OLTR. An FB or MLTR? Sure. But never an OLTR.
Why on Earth would you want to marry or have kids with a 21 year old loool. I’ve dated girls between the ages of 19 -24, and they are a lot of fun but also a lot of fucking chaos. They haven’t got a fucking clue what their doing but so many men get distracted by their youthful beauty and actually date them seriously or even, lord help me, marry them. Avoid that.
If she’s over 25, she’ll be more settled in her personality and know what she wants. Yes, women over 30 are more demanding but they are also more reliable and more stable (and generally better at sex than a fit 19 year old, trust me). For me, if i can find a liberally minded 30 year old woman who, during our first months together, is already open to the idea of an open relationship down the line, I don’t think she will suddenly change her mind in 5 years so long as I am an alpha 2.0 and still satisfying her emotional, financial and sexual needs. She was already sexually open to the idea at 30 and I don’t see why such a drastic change will happen just because we have kids now even with the hormonal changes. The key is finding a woman who is 30 and has very liberal views to sex which are genuine. Of course if you make an agreement with a conservative woman about an open relationship she may agree just so she can seduce you and have your kids but then give you full-blown drama when you actually go ahead with it. But she was already conservative and dominant to begin with so why would you think she would ever be open to that idea anyway? You really need to screen hard with an OLTR.
Of course this is all theoretical but I am taking BD’s wise teachings and adapting them to my own personal world view. Monogamy first then transitioning into OLTR can work but I think it depends so much on the woman you choose to be with and have kids with and also how consistently alpha 2.0 you can be as a man. Again, it’s not fucking easy but that’s life. Life ain’t easy bruv as we say in London lool
Kjell
Posted at 09:18h, 16 JanuaryWhat if the ex girlfriend is parading her multiple boyfriends in front of my daughters?
hollywood
Posted at 09:53h, 16 JanuaryI’ve been telling my daughters who are now young teens that marriage doesn’t work, but I also told them I don’t have an answer for what does work. What would you recommend telling daughters. I can easily tell a son how to be an Alpha 2.0, but daughters are a different story.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 11:48h, 16 JanuaryCorrect, when talking about the Western world.
As I’ve said before, millions of people have tried millions of things to make monogamous marriage work in the Western world already. Therefore, people don’t seem to understand that if there was a specific formula to make TMM work (do X, Y, and Z, and screen for this and this), even the weird version London Boy is fantasizing about, it would have been already discovered quite a while ago and millions of men all over the Western world would be doing it right now with massively high success rates. If any individual thinks that he alone has come up with the secret sauce that no one else has yet discovered, it’s the height of both arrogance and naivety.
But I’m sure London Boy has uniquely uncovered the super secret formula that literally no one else in all of human history has thought of and he’ll be the first to make it work.
Read item #1 here.
Read this, this, and this. Between those you’ll come up with some good answers.
luck67
Posted at 13:56h, 16 JanuaryYep. One of the better reads I have seen on this specific topic. I ended my marriage quite awhile back from someone who checked the boxes on a couple of the shitty woman traits. I was sucked in by the BPD party train early on, then got the fuck out after she script flipped at the first escape opportunity. Am now co parenting a 16 year old son and I barely see or talk to his mom other than email. In 10 years of post marraige afterlife, he has met 2 of my women , a past and current LTR. The rampant whoring and MILFing I did prior to, and in between, don’t exist for him. The lead by example operation works out very well…they pick up on it. Lastly….never talk shit about the Mom. My ex is whacked as they come, but through my silence …the kid has figured it out …
Jordan
Posted at 13:34h, 17 JanuaryThis was an interesting read. I do wonder sometimes if the Western world is going to shift to a more platonic or communal style of parenting, due to the high divorce rates and all. Of course, there could be some very real downsides to that platonic/communal style of parenting (i.e. cults to give an extreme example), but unless the divorce rate really decreases or the Western world suddenly gets its shit together, that may be a better alternative.
C Lo
Posted at 00:39h, 19 JanuaryWhy do you think 48% of US households are on some form of government assistance?
Because 2/3s of those 48% are old and qualify for social security and Medicare?
On average, Gen Zers drink less, have less sex, and have the lower rates of pregnancy than previous generations. There’s tons of data out there and people who care about household formation for economic forecasting reasons are…alarmed.
I’m not looking to kick rocks at BD but he’s wrong on this one.
The only good divorce is the one you avoid. I can assure you that as someone who got divorced and never had a child family court still sucks.
I posted a cite a few weeks back where some hedgefund calculated your odds of being divorced from the first person you marry at 78%.
In round terms, that means of 5 weddings you attend, one is going to make it.
Its 2020. There’s no stigma around not being married anymore. Brian believed the fairy tale. You need to protect yourself. It’s not like that anymore.
Caleb Jones
Posted at 10:01h, 20 Januaryhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/07/02/weve-crossed-the-tipping-point-most-americans-now-receive-government-benefits/
Correct. And they’re still left-wing socialists, as the data showed here.
I just showed you the data.
Have you started going to that therapist yet? Your near-constant negativity on my blog with no facts to back it up is starting to annoy me. Please try to be constructive in the future. That’s the last time I ask you nicely.
Correct. He’s always hated prenups with fiery passion and thinks that they contribute to divorce (even though he’s already been divorced himself).
He once talked about a live-in couple he once knew who had a break-up that was drama free and lasted literally 90 minutes while one person just moved their stuff out with no complaints or arguments because they had everything in the house labeled as “his” or “hers.” He talked about this like it was a terrible, horrible thing. But I heard the story and thought those two people where wonderfully mature geniuses. If every divorce was like that it would be a better world.
He’s been married twice, though his marriage to Barbara (his second marriage) has lasted a long time, more than 30 years if I recall correctly.
I know Brian personally. He’s one of my greatest mentors. His marriage is a TMM.
As I’ve said before, just because you’re right about a lot of things doesn’t mean you’re right about literally everything. Brian Tracy is one of the greatest men who has ever lived in my opinion, and he’s a huge reason for my success in life, but he’s also a right-wing Republican with a lot of outdated political and social views.