How Many Dates Should You Wait Before Sex?

Reading Time – 10 minutes

So many different dating models, so many different opinions.

I’ll cover one extreme to the other.

Sex On The First Date

First, you have the hardcore, player, Thrill of the Hunt, pick-up artist guys. They say that you should have sex right on the first date or meet and totally go for it. Their argument is that, hey, you’ve got her right there. You may never see her again. Strike while the iron is hot, my man. Use every technique in the book (run game, isolation, escalation, overcoming objections, etc) and get to the sex on that first meet, even if it takes several hours and multiple bounce locations.

If you don’t try to have sex with them on the first date/meet, they argue, then you won’t have set a sexual frame for the interaction, so the woman will either never bother to see you again, or worse, if she sees you again there’s no way she’ll have sex with you, and either put you in forever friend zone or make you wait lots of dates before sex. Therefore, they argue, not going after sex on the first date/meet is stupid.

They will also point to examples where they’ve done it in the past and it worked.  When guys like me advise you to wait until the second date because attempting it on the first date is too hard with most women, these men object and say that’s not true because they’ve done it before and it worked.

Sure, it works sometimes. I’ve done it myself a few times. The issue is how often it works as a percentage of your first dates. Whenever I tell these guys to give me actual statistics of what percentage of women they’ve had first dates with whom they’ve actually had sex with on that first date, for some odd reason they end the conversation and don’t answer my question.

Hm. What do you think that indicates?

Sex On The Second Date

Next, you’ve got me (and guys similar to me). The Blackdragon/Alpha Male 2.0 dating system I’ve been teaching for 17 years, and one that I know works with extremely high odds of success across the board with most men and women, teaches to have sex on the second date.

To address the points of the player guys above, my system does NOT teach to have a typical beta male first date of dinner and drinks with no sexual aspect at all. Quite the opposite. I teach that you should have a one-hour (and no longer) first date/meet. Do not have this meet at a restaurant. Have it instead at a cool bar or coffee shop where you order one drink for her and one drink for you and that’s it.

You have an extremely sexual, Alpha Male vibe to the first date/meet with kino (touching), sex talk, and an extremely outcome-independent attitude, with zero compliments or ass-kissing. You end the date without kissing her, meaning you’ve ramped up sexual attraction and tension very high and leave it with nowhere to go…

…until the second date when she comes over to your place and you both have sex, often within 30 minutes.

This system is superior to going after sex on the first date because:

•              It takes far less time. Attempting sex on the first date often takes 4-5 hours or even more, going late into the evening. My system takes 2-3 hours or less (total between both dates) once you get good at it.

•              You get far less discomfort or resistance from her, if any. On the first date, her shields are set to maximum power. On the second date, she’s much more relaxed, comfortable with you, and attracted to you.

•              It costs less. Often first-date lays involve dinner and/or a lot of drinks. My system costs less than $27 meet-to-sex on average, and often it costs zero dollars.

Does the second-date model work 100% of the time? No, but it works more often statistically than the first-date system.

Does the second-date model work on all women of all ages? No, women over age 33 are usually going to make you wait longer than two dates because of their increased ASD (the definition of ASD is at the end of this article in italics below). I’ll address that in a minute. But women under 33 and certainly women under 27 will have no problem with it at all.

Sex On The Third Date

Waiting until the third date is many people’s societal default. Somewhere around the early 90s or so a bunch of women decided that the third date was the “appropriate” time to have sex with a new man. I’m not sure if this came from a woman’s book or TV sitcoms, but it came from somewhere. This quickly became part of standard Societal Programming. The “three date rule” and so forth.

Women who push the three-date model don’t use any facts or data to back up why they’ve chosen this magical number of three dates. They just say that if a woman has sex with a new guy after three dates, that’s somehow “okay” because she won’t be a “slut” after making a guy wait that long. It’s based almost purely on ASD and therefore completely arbitrary, much like the age of consent in most Western countries being 18. (Why 18? Why not 17 or 19? Arbitrary.

Sex On The Fourth Date

Sex on the fourth date is a system pushed by two groups of people: women over age 33 and traditional Christian/conservative men.

Women over 33 force the beta males they date (because an Alpha Male would never wait four fucking dates for sex) to wait around four dates for sex because that’s about how long it takes for the man to prove to the woman he’s a “gentleman” and not a “player.” It shows that he “knows how to treat a lady,” “respects women” and “isn’t just looking for sex.”  It also indicates to her (rightly or wrongly) that he’s truly “looking for a relationship” instead of looking to just get laid.

Those are the overt reasons. The internal reason women over 33 force men to wait this long is because it indicates to her that he is a good, compliant little beta male who will follow her agenda, thus if she makes this guy her boyfriend/husband, he’ll obey her commands, which is what most modern-day Western provider-hunters over age 33 are looking for. It’s essentially a screening tool that screens out confident Alphas and screens in needy betas.

Tradcon or hardcore Christian men think waiting four dates before sex with a new woman they consider relationship material is fantastic because it indicates to them (again, rightly or wrongly) that she’s not some “slut” or “whore” who will just “bang a guy on the first date.” She’s most likely a pure woman who isn’t woke or a feminist, probably likes Trump, and probably hasn’t had sex with too many other men… and is hopefully a virgin!!! Oh joy of joys!!!

Again, like the over-33 women, tradcon men use this almost as a screening tool before getting traditionally monogamously married and thus incurring a ~90% marital failure rate.

Sex Way Past The Fourth Date

A few people force their dating partners to wait way longer than the fourth date to have sex. They go weeks and even months before doing it.

These people can be men and women, but when men do this it doesn’t work, namely because the women quickly sense something is wrong and dump them before too much time passes. On the flip side, women can string men along for months because men are more needy than women, especially today in the era of the Collapsing Western World. So whenever you see a couple who have been dating for many weeks or months and haven’t had sex yet, it’s always a woman who doesn’t want to do it with a thirsty beta male with oneitis (definition below) who wants it.

At best, these people might do sexual stuff like blowjobs, but not sex. Not for a very long time, if ever.

A small fraction of these people are virgins saving it for marriage, but the majority of them are just people with sexual hangups, usually because of past trauma, but sometimes because of weird personalities.

By the way, under all these dating scenarios I’m only talking here about normal dating, not sugar daddy game or any variation of that. Almost always in a sugar daddy scenario, sex happens right on the first meet, often very quickly (which is sort of the entire point of sugar daddy game). The only exception to this is when the woman is famous (like a famous Instagram or OnlyFans model) so she needs a normal “date” at a nice location before sex occurs to screen the man to ensure he’s not a weirdo, stalker, asshole, too young, or too poor. Then sex quickly occurs on the second date.

So there are all of your options. Of course, I recommend the best option, which is sex on the second date after a properly executed first date, only waiting until the third date if you absolutely have to (or if she’s over age 33). I do not ever recommend waiting until the fourth date or later to have sex; there are too many other women who are happy to have sex with you before that, so just move on to the next one.


ASD – Anti Slut Defense. A condition created by Societal Programming experienced by women wherein they attempt to avoid sex, even if they want it, so as to not look or feel like a “slut” or “inappropriate” or not like “a lady”. ASD is a cause for major confusion, frustration, and psychological dysfunction in women, since they strongly desire sex but are repeatedly told there is something wrong with it.

Oneitis – 1. A set of actions and behaviors where a man does things in order to get one particular girl or “not lose” one particular girl, at the expense of pursuing other girls and/or at the expense of his own freedom and happiness. 2. Any non-minor compromise a man makes to a woman (either to “get her” or to “not lose her”) that will immediately or eventually restrict his freedom or damage his happiness. Example: A man promising to always pick up his socks or keep the TV at a certain volume is not necessarily oneitis, but a man with a healthy sex drive promising to never get sexual with any other woman is certainly oneitis as defined here, since eventually that promise will make him less free and less happy.

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Question of The Week

Should I Leave My Girlfriend and Child To Move To A Better Country?

T.N. Writes:

I’ve been a dedicated viewer of your YouTube videos since 2020 and have always valued your insights. I’m a 29-year-old man originally from Spain but currently residing in Australia. I’m in a relationship with a wonderful tall and pretty 37-year-old woman who has blessed me with a five-year-old son.

I’m facing a significant existential dilemma at the moment. I’ve become disillusioned with life in Australia due to what I perceive as limited rights for fathers, high taxes, and a cultural environment that doesn’t align with my traditional values. On top of that, my online business, which earns around $250K profit annually, could benefit from a more favorable tax climate. I’m contemplating relocating to a country that offers better conditions for fathers, lower taxes, and where I find the cultural environment more suitable – particularly in Eastern Europe, where I spent several years before meeting my current girlfriend.

The primary obstacle preventing my move is my girlfriend. We’ve had numerous arguments about our future, as she wishes to stay in Australia, create a family in the suburbs, and have a second child. Despite our past as digital nomads exploring the world, she’s now keen on a more settled down lifestyle.

As a young man with an online income, I feel out of place in Australia. The cultural differences, combined with high taxes and a lack of appreciation for success, have led me to consider two options. I’d appreciate your advice on the matter:

1) Option One: Continue living in Australia until my child is older, enduring another 12-14 years of what feels like suffering and pain. This entails dealing with high taxes, subpar dating experiences, and a lifestyle that doesn’t align with my goals.

2) Option Two: Move abroad independently, parting ways with my girlfriend of 10 years and leaving my five-year-old son behind. I would commit to regular visits, perhaps every 3-6 months, to maintain a connection with my child. But that is basically being an absent father.

I’m in a desperate situation and struggling to find guidance in my current environment. I’d appreciate any insights or advice you may have based on your experiences.

(For those of you reading this, this is precisely why I scream at you guys constantly to NEVER father ANY children until you are at least 35-40 years old and already hit most of your big goals and have everything structured the way you want. Otherwise, you’ll end up in a scenario like this person where all of your options are bad. Please, please, PLEASE wait to have kids until you’re an older man.)

So as I said, all of your options are bad and there are no good options for you. Our job is to figure out the least bad of all the bad options. Just remember that my suggestion will be bad because all of your options are bad.

Also, my advice is not the word of God but simply my opinion. I always advise as if I woke up tomorrow in your life knowing what I know now.

With all that in mind, I would not stay in high-tax authoritarian-woke Australia for the next 10-14 years of my life no matter what. Jesus Christ, no. No amount of money or love from anyone (children included) would be worth that level of stress, pain, taxes, and oppression on my business life for that long. One or two years, perhaps. 10-14? Kill me, no.

This means I would figure out how to leave in the least bad way possible. Therefore, here is what I would do:

1. Set a date on the calendar, whenever you think is appropriate, to move out of Australia, and commit to it and actually do it. Don’t puss out and not do it when the time comes!!!

2. Nicely tell my OLTR (because I hope you’re having sex with other women and this isn’t a monogamous girlfriend) that although I love my child, I’m not going to destroy my future by staying in Australia for the next 10-14 years, so I’m leaving on this date with or without her. She has that long to decide; she can choose to come with me (with our child) or stay in Australia.

If she chooses to stay, she will become a single mom at age 37 (yikes, I wouldn’t want to be her in the dating market) and I will cut off all financial support she’s currently getting from me other than the minimal monthly child support mandated by the Australian government, and not one dollar more, and this amount will never increase. I will also immediately start dating new hot girls in Eastern Europe and our OLTR-girlfriend/boyfriend relationship is over.

If she chooses to come with me with our child, I will commit to supporting her much more with my income and my support will increase as my income increases, which it will since I’m only 29 years old and just getting started. I will also commit to being her 100% OLTR boyfriend and possibly getting OLTR married to her down the road. I will also have more kids with her if she wants. I will also commit to, once we’re settled in our new country, never moving to another country again until all of our kids are grown and out of the house, so she’ll never need to go through this again and she can feel 100% settled, nested, and financially supported.  Now she has real financial and family/Disney incentives to come with me.

3. If she decides to stay despite all of these incentives, then I would move away, downgrade her to long-distance FB, cut back the money I was sending her (but keep sending her the minimum), and build my new life in a new country. And yes, I would definitely spend several months a year back in stupid Australia to be a father to my child as best as I could. (However, I would NOT tell her that I would be doing this nor commit to any schedule during my conversation with her above. I want to make me leaving without her sound as bad as possible.)

Good luck and I wish you the best.

  • Will
    Posted at 06:03 pm, 1st March 2024

    Do you have experience with women from ultra-high ASD cultures (India, Pakistan, some Muslim countries)? Would you consider a higher sex on the fourth date?

  • Will
    Posted at 06:06 pm, 1st March 2024

    *would you consider sex on the fourth date?

  • Caleb Jones
    Posted at 06:07 am, 2nd March 2024

    Yes I have. And no I will not. There is no valid “excuse” for making me wait 4 days without any sex when there are literally billions of other women who won’t make me wait that long.

  • ExTii
    Posted at 12:54 pm, 15th March 2024

    As a woman I agree with Caleb’s ultimatum (I actually know a guy who did just that with a mid 30s chick except he didn’t have a kid with her yet- that was part of the agreement to move) although I’d add a commitment to putting a ring on it instead of being a 10+ year girlfriend. I can understand that she wouldn’t feel comfortable leaving her support network without a commitment and I wouldn’t either (unless she is one of those more rare women that doesn’t want to be married). Since she’s 37 the possibility of starting over and meeting a high quality guy to give her a second kid and a house when she’s a single mom at that the chances are slim and she knows it. Offering what Caleb suggests and a commitment will most likely get her to agree easier than you think, giving a 1-2 year deadline, the only roadblock is if she hangs out with a bunch of feminists blowing smoke up her ass about her chances of getting what she wants without having to move. Going forward if you’re done with your relationship when you’re having kids with someone make sure your values align….these problems don’t happen then!

  • Caleb Jones
    Posted at 04:03 am, 16th March 2024

    That would only be if she qualifies for a wife, and most women don’t. I don’t know how long he’s been dating this woman so I can’t comment, but a man should never promise marriage just because he wants a woman to move with him. That promise is only made once he’s 100% sure she qualifies, and that takes a very long time with several discussions.

  • gero
    Posted at 08:46 am, 1st June 2024

    Caleb, have you done sugar baby with “famous” instagram models or onlyfans girls? if so what the major difference you saw from regular girls?

  • Caleb Jones
    Posted at 05:21 pm, 4th June 2024

    Caleb, have you done sugar baby with “famous” instagram models or onlyfans girls? if so what the major difference you saw from regular girls?

    Yes, many. There aren’t very many differences other than those famous Insta girls travel much more often. They’re still girls with all of the same desires, problems, etc.

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