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First date? Second date? After five dates? After you discuss exclusivity?

Before the first date, as in she just comes over (or you go to her place) and just bang?

Once you “get to know her better?”

How long should a man wait for (or expect) sex from a new woman?

Does it depend on the woman? If you’re looking for a woman to be your wife and mother of your children should you wait longer for sex? If she’s just a piece of ass, is it thus “okay” to have sex with her fast then?

What if she’s religious?

What if she’s Asian?

What if she’s older than you?

What if she’s a virgin (or, heh, says she is)?

Does any of this matter?

Should it?

Over the past 18 years discussing these topics, I have found that everyone, women included, has extreme viewpoints on this topic and opinions are all over the map with very little consensus.

I have also found that the vast majority of people who have these strong opinions (men and women included) base these opinions on feelings, Societal Programming, hope, anger, or Disney fantasies rather than facts, data, objectivity, and how modern-day humans behave in the real world.

There then is the most rational analysis I can give you. I’m not saying my opinion on this matter is 100% right, because it’s still an opinion, but I am saying that my opinion is the closest to objective reality than most others you’ll see bandied about, from again, men and women both.

The summary statement is that in the Western world and the 21^st century with things like condoms, birth control, and long-term monogamy not working worth a shit, sex between a man and a woman who have just met in a dating context should occur as fast as possible, but not too fast, and several circumstances can and should speed this up or down but only slightly.

I’ve half-jokingly said that my ideal first date with a cute woman would be that she and I immediately have sex (with a condom) within the first two minutes and then we talk and get to know each other.

The problem with that is that it’s too fast. I’m not saying this because of some religious tradcon right-wing societal programming nor because of any over-age-33-woman ASD.

I’m saying it because it’s literally too fast. What if she shows up at your place, right from Tinder, sight unseen, and she lied in her photos and she weighs 250 pounds? This happens to guys all the time.

What if she’s a complete psycho? What if she’s drunk? Or high on drugs? This stuff happens in the Collapsing West all the time and many of you have reported these things to me.

Do you want that woman in your home? I certainly don’t.

Therefore, the horny male fantasy of just having a brand new woman come right over to your place immediately from the dating app or whatever to immediately have sex with you is indeed too fast from an objective standpoint.

This also applies to sugar daddy game and, at least in my opinion, even to having sex with hookers.

Quick true story. Years ago Pink Firefly and I were in Vegas and she came up with the bright idea of hiring a hooker so she could watch me have sex with her. I don’t sleep with hookers (for many reasons I’ve explained before) so I preferred to find someone from a sugar daddy dating site.

PF was threatened by this because, unlike hookers, sugar babies have to be at least somewhat attracted to you to have sex with you (as I’ve explained in great detail in my books).

I love my wife so I gave in. We picked a hooker from a list of hooker photos and had her come right over to her hotel room.

The woman who showed up wasn’t the woman in the photo we picked. She wasn’t attractive at all. Hard no for me.

She explained that yeah, when you order a hooker in Vegas it’s never the woman in the photo.

When PF and I questioned how that works, she just shrugged and responded “Men don’t care.”

Heh. Dudes have such low standards these days.

I only have sex with attractive women I gave her $50 just to be nice and sent her on her way.

My point is that “too fast” is indeed a thing.

The “ideal” time to have sex with a new woman is, in my view, within 1-2 hours of face time.

“Face time” is defined as time you’re actually talking to a woman one-on-one in real life (video calls, texting, DMing, etc, do NOT count) and getting to know her.

Going to a movie, doing karaoke, or something like that also doesn’t count, which is why it’s so stupid to do these things with a new woman before you have sex with her; you’re prolonging the get-to-sex time for no reason.

Getting to sex within 3-4 hours is also acceptable, but not as good as 1-2 hours which is ideal.

Within 1-4 hours of face time, you’ve established that likely she’s not a complete psycho and/or on drugs and you’ve gotten a good long look at her in real life and determined if you’re physically attracted to her. If you have a decent level of game you’ve also determined (more or less) if she likes you.

This is all a green light. Slap on a good condom, follow the 2% Rule (so now STDs and pregnancies are no longer an excuse), and enjoy yourself.

Then if you’re following Alpha Male 2.0 relationship and dating models, have sex with her a second time as fast as you can (ideally the next day), get to Lock-In, categorize her as either an FB or MLTR, and then start your long-term relationship with her. Win.

This means that “too long” to wait for sex with a new woman is anything longer than about four hours of face time. Here are the reasons why:

1. You don’t need more than four hours to “get to know her.” All you’re doing is having sex and starting an FB or MLTR relationship, for fuck’s sake, so four hours of “get to know” time is more than enough for that.

You need to “get to know her” more before you make her your girlfriend or something like that, but under Alpha 2.0 relationship models that takes at least six months, if not a year or more. So that doesn’t apply here.

To tradcon men and women over the age of 33: Having sex with a new woman one time doesn’t mean you need to make her your GF, marry her, or have kids with her. Making a woman your exclusive girlfriend after having sex with her just once or twice is literally stupid. As I’ve been saying for almost 20 years, this ain’t the 1950s, folks.

2. The longer you wait past four hours the lower your odds become. This is because you’ll likely say something that will piss her off, something she won’t care about if you said it after Lock-In (when you’ve both had sex with each other twice).

The other reason is that you’re putting yourself in the framing of a monogamous beta male when you wait and wait before you make a move, which women over age 33 might find appropriate, but isn’t very sexually attractive.

3. If you do have sex after four hours, you’ve started the entire relationship off on her frame, which is very bad. She’ll now make all kinds of bossy demands about how you must behave in the relationship which won’t be compatible with Alpha Male 2.0 and won’t make you happy (and probably won’t last unless you really are a beta male).

4. It’s not scalable or streamlined. It’s also more expensive. If you have to wait ten hours of face time to have sex with every new woman, you’ll have to spend a massive amount of time (and often money) in your dating life as compared to the guy who gets laid in 1-2 hours.

Way back in 2007 when I got started on this journey, that’s what I went through, and let me tell you, it was a nightmare from hell I wouldn’t wish on any man.

5. Worst of all, what if you don’t get laid? What if you spend eight hours of face time invested into this woman and then she sends you one of those fun texts that says, “Hey so you’re a great guy but I’ve met someone else and I’m going to give it a shot with him,” or “My ex messaged me yesterday and he’s promised to turn over a new leaf, so…”

You’ve gotten those texts. I’ve gotten those texts (back when I was a beginner). If you’ve only spent 1-2 hours with her, then who cares? But if you’ve spent real time with her, you’ve really wasted your time.

Plus if you’ve only spent 1-2 hours with her the odds of you ever getting a text like that go way down.

As I’ve said before, if women have the right to immediately dump you any time they want pre-sex, even after a bunch of dates that we paid for, that’s great, but then we have the right to (nicely) push for sex as fast as possible so we don’t waste our time. It’s called fairness, something women say they want.

By the way, the quality of the woman doesn’t matter.

If you’re looking to just get laid or if you’re looking for a wife to marry, the 1-2 hour face time thing applies in both scenarios.

If you think any woman who would have sex with a new guy within that time frame is somehow bad or isn’t fit for a long-term relationship, you’re factually and objectively wrong. Pretty much all of my longest relationships were with women I had sex with in under 3-4 hours of face time, some well under that, Pink Firefly included.

Now here are the scenarios where this time frame can move up or down a little:

1. Sugar daddy game where you’re actually paying for it. Under this scenario, meet-to-sex times should be pretty fast. Shit, you’re paying for it, so she has no excuses here. But again, I still wouldn’t have her come right to my place for the reasons I’ve already stated. Instead, meet her at a Starbucks or something 5 minutes from your place, then quickly assess, and bring her back home if you approve.

2. As I’ve already discussed and explained in great detail in my blogs and books, women over the age of 33 aren’t going to follow any of this. Their anger, jadedness with dating, provider-hunter desires, and/or ASD are just too strong.

So you’re going to have to wait three, four, five dates or even longer. You might be able to get a little sexual before then but you won’t get to actual sex.

There is no way around this if you want to date women this age, barring the unusual exception to the rule. Suck it up and put in the numbers, or only date women under 33.

3. Highly inexperienced women, virgins, or Type 3 VYW may also take a little longer. This is normal.

4. Referral Game supercharges all of this. You can easily get to sex with a new woman within 20-30 minutes or less in Referral Game with ease, and I have many times, and that includes non-sugar-daddy game. Referral Game destroys pretty much all ASD so there is virtually no waiting time.