Do Opposites Attract?
âOpposites attractâ has been an age-old saying going back perhaps 200 years. Youâve probably seen a lot of anecdotal evidence in your life that supports it. I certainly have. But is it accurate?
The answer is yes… and no. I shall explain.
A few years ago, there was a woman I was playing around with whom Iâll call Jenna. She was a cute blonde, 23 years old, and a crazy party girl. She lived life on the edge. She wasnât stupid; she was reasonably intelligent, but her lifestyle was full of crazy fun, staying up way too late, doing drugs (though not to an extreme degree), and hanging out with losers (men and women both). She spoke with a very hard edge. Listening to her was like listening to a man from the 1970âs. Her favorite outfit was sweat bottoms and a tank top. She absolutely loved music I hated, movies I hated, people I hated, and lifestyles I hated.
She was my exact opposite in every way. We had literally nothing in common. Iâm a business nerd in his 40âs, attracted to sweet, nice girly-girls. There was no reason I would have been attracted in any way to Jenna (beyond the physical), nor she to me.
Yet, for some damn reason, our chemistry was absolutely incredible. When we hung out or had sex, there was a passionate, white-hot fire between us that was insane beyond belief. It was so unbelievable and bizarre that I was honestly stumped and couldnât understand it.
I mentioned this to my daughter in passing, saying that Jenna and I had this crazy chemistry/fire between us, but it didnât make any sense.
âIt makes perfect sense,â my daughter said. âYouâre complete and total opposites. No wonder youâre all over each other.â
So clearly opposites attract, right?
Well, right here I talked about one of the first women I was able to get into a nonmonogamous relationship with way back in 2007, who I called Marci. Marci was essentially a female version of me. She was a hardcore business woman who was exactly my age, who disliked traditional relationships, thought marriage was stupid, had no problem fucking multiple people and letting those people have sex with other people, and was really into self improvement and action movies. It was like someone had created an attractive female version of me. We were almost like clones, just with different genders. We had everything in common.
…and our chemistry was amazing; mind-blowing. We intoxicated each other. It was every bit as exciting and passionate as I experienced so many years later with Jenna. It was crazy. Iâve experienced NRE many times with many women, but this was different (as it was with Jenna). It was on a whole different level. It was the closest I ever came to having sex with myself, as funny as that sounds.
So what the hell is going on here? Iâve had crazy, intense, mutual attraction going far beyond just the physical with women who were my polar opposites and my identical girl-twins. So do opposites attract, or not?
Opposites vs. Similarities
I donât know for sure if what Iâm about to say is accurate, but itâs a working theory and Iâm reasonably sure Iâm right about this. I think opposites attract up to a point. Yes, a woman who is very âoppositeâ from you is likely to attract you much more than just any typical cute girl walking down the street. However, if this girl is completely opposite to you in every way, either you wonât be attracted as much as you thought once you get to know her, or the intense NRE will burn out very quickly.
I think the same is true if a woman is too similar to you. If a woman is just like you in every way, either you will start to get unattracted or the NRE will burn out very quickly.
This is what happened to both Jenna and Marci, as well as other âoppositesâ and âclonesâ Iâve dated as FBâs or MLTRâs in the past. Jenna and I âburned outâ very fast; in just a few months I didnât give a shit about her anymore, and the same could be said about her feelings towards me. Weâre still distant friends, but thatâs about it. I havenât seen her in a long time, and writing this article is the first time Iâve thought about her in quite a while.
With Marci, we just drifted apart after a few weeks. Later, she moved away to another state. Weâre still good friends to this day, but I would never consider a relationship with her beyond a FB. I could never date a woman like me. One me in my life is quite enough.
I think the âopposites attractâ works best when the woman who is âoppositeâ to you also contains some strong similarities as well. The ideal true attraction will be with a woman with whom every trait is either identical to yours or the exact opposite to yours, with most of them being opposites. Hereâs what I mean:
If you encounter a woman during your dating adventures that has many traits opposite from you, but a handful of traits that are identical to you or close to it, that woman is going to be extremely attractive to you (and likely, her to you, assuming your physical appearance is not problematic), and this attraction will last well past NRE and into a longer-term relationship (unless you screw it up, of course).
If instead, her traits are all over the place on the spectrum, then you might be really attracted to her and you might not. It all depends on other factors.
Iâll use my dating history as an example. What few relationships Iâve had that were A) unusually long-lasting, as in many years without a LSFNTE, and B) very serious, and C) where me and the woman maintained a strong amount of attraction for a decently long period of time, fell into that bottom chart of âStronger, True Attraction.â All of these women were full of traits that were diametrically opposite to me, but had a few traits that were almost identical to me.
As just two examples, both Pink Firefly (my current girlfriend/OLTR) and HBM (my last serious âgirlfriendâ) were the typical templates of what I really like. I tend to be attracted to extremely girly, feminine women with decent amounts of Disney and on the high end of the emotional scale. In other words, Iâm attracted to the complete opposite from me. (I am extremely masculine, very rational and objective for a human being, have zero Disney, and Iâm on the extreme low end of the emotional scale, to the point of being almost fucking robotic.)
However, at the same time, they also had traits that were identical to me or very close to it. As just one example, Iâm a creature of work; I love to work and work is my greatest joy in life. I work seven days a week, by choice, because I love it. Both Pink Firefly and HBM are/were also extremely hard-working people to the point of being workaholics. For the past many years, Firefly has worked two jobs, working seven days a week. HBM would work 12 hour days, never taking a break, and more than once she would literally pass out at work due to dehydration or work exhaustion and theyâd have to call the ambulance.
So when I encounter a super feminine girly-girl who also works her ass off, my attraction spikes into the stratosphere. It’s crazy. Their attraction for me also spikes. Lots of opposite traits, a few identical traits, and not much else.
Now hereâs the interesting thing. I never consciously sat down and said, âI love women who are workaholics!â or âWomen who work seven days a week are so hot! Damn thatâs sexy!â No. I literally never thought about it. Instead, I always thought about the opposite traits, like femininity, girlyness, and a tiny body. I just ended up with âoppositeâ women who had these similar traits as me. My subconscious was directing things, not my conscious mind.
That leads to another aspect that is indeed 100% about the âopposite.â
Physical Attraction
What Iâm about to describe doesnât apply to everyone. My theory is that it applies to almost 100% of people who have more extreme personalities; very masculine, very feminine, very emotional, very non-emotional, very intense, very laid back, etc.
I am a physically large man with dark hair and blue eyes. Guess what kind of female physical type turns me on the most? The exact opposite; short, tiny, petite women (preferably with exaggerated curves) with very blonde hair (ideally platinum) and dark brown eyes. I covered one reason for this in this article here, but another reason is that in many cases, opposites do indeed attract when it comes to body types (but again, most likely itâs with people of more extreme personalities).
This is why youâll often see big NFL football players and UFC types with teeny tiny 5â1â wives. I relate completely. (Although these jocks are almost always extreme betas in their relationships and these little wives boss them around like tiny dictators. Thatâs where we part company)
Iâve noticed this with many men and women who have clearer or more extreme personalities. Men who only date Asian women. Women who only date guys who are really skinny. Men who date fat girls (and like it). Women who pretty much only date giant, husky guys like me. Etc.
One biological theory behind this is that as human beings, we are attracted to physical traits we donât have so as to more likely create better-looking children. If you mate with a woman who looks a lot like you do, odds are your kids arenât going to be very pretty. But if you mate with someone who looks the âoppositeâ to you, your odds of good-looking babies go up. At least, that’s the theory. I’m no biologist.
The evidence used to back up this theory is to see how ugly people were in old pictures from the 1920âs or the 1800âs. People were really damn ugly back then, even the young women. Human beings are far better looking now; this could be one reason.
Also note how smoking hot 50/50 racially mixed people tend to be. Half-Asian women, half-black women, half-Indian women, and half-whatever women almost always seem to be amazingly hot. The same is often true of men as well.
I have no idea if this biological theory is true, but it seems to jive with a hell of a lot of what Iâve seen and experienced over the years.
Complementary vs. Compatible
Another aspect of this, of which most people are completely unaware, is the issue of someone being complementary to you as opposed to compatible with you. In terms of getting laid, this doesnât matter much, but in terms of ongoing relationships that are supposed to be serious (MLTRâs and OLTR), this is very important; doubly so if you live together or plan on doing so.
Compatible describes how you are similar to someone. If you both donât drink, donât smoke, donât stay out late, and are somewhat introverted, youâre pretty compatible. You wonât have nearly as much conflict in your relationship.
Incompatible is the opposite. That means you have stark differences that do not mesh well together. If you were the hypothetical man above, and then got into a very serious relationship with a woman who drank and smoked often, stayed out late into the evening, and was very extroverted, youâd have all kinds of problems with her once NRE was over. Not a good idea (unless she’s just a FB).
Complementary means you have stark differences that actually do mesh well together. Being incompatible with someone is bad, being complementary with someone is good, but in both cases, weâre describing differences. If you are really complementary with someone, it really helps the relationship, even if you have some incompatibility.
For example, many years ago when I was a beta male and was traditionally, monogamously married, (kill me) I was married to a woman who I was not compatible with, but highly complementary with. We were not compatible because she was a very strong traditionalist, deeply steeped in false Societal Programming when it came to things like religion and tradition. Obviously, Iâm the exact opposite, even as a beta so many years ago. While we were both introverted and both reasonably intelligent, I was (and still am) a highly opinionated, arrogant, happy smartass, while she was a dark, moody, societal drone. I was a libertarian; she was a right-wing conservative. I was happy most of the time; she was brooding most of the time. I thought life was about happiness; she thought life was about sacrifice.
In other words, we were incompatible as fuck. Thatâs one of the reasons we eventually got divorced. (It wasn’t the biggest reason though; that was because long-term sexual monogamy doesnât work, but thatâs a discussion for another time.)
However, we were married for nine years. Not bad for todayâs marriage length, and about seven of those years were pretty good. Why? Because while we werenât compatible at all, we were highly complementary.
I was very good with numbers, money, and business. If she even looked at a calculator it would make her head spin. She had no concept of business and looking at a spreadsheet would make her âhead hurt.â On the flip side, I had no idea how to fix things around the house (though I am much better at this now) or how to manage things like a yard or a garage. She was a genius with these things. Our entire house (and we had a very big house and big yard) ran perfectly because she was always on top of everything. Her repair skills, crafting skills, and artistic ability were off the chart, and it was great to have someone like that in my life. (My artistic ability is zero, other than fiction writing.)
Iâm always a big-picture thinker, setting goals, making plans, and executing them. She had no idea about the big picture but was intensely detail oriented, which I was terrible with when I was a younger man. (Again, Iâm far better about the details today, to the point where I sort of amaze myself; we men tend to improve with age.)
So in a weird way, even though we were fundamentally incompatible as a couple, it was âhardâ for us to leave each other, not because we loved or even liked each other, but because we were both so good at making up for each otherâs flaws. We were very complementary.
The ideal relationship is, of course, being decently compatible and complementary. The opposites attract factor actually helps the complementary part; since, for example, if Iâm attracted to very feminine, emotional women, that right there creates an element of complementary right off the bat. (My ex-wife was not very feminine, as you might imagine.) I just need to be careful about the compatible part (and so do you). This is much easier these days since Iâm much more self-aware about who I am, who I am not, and what kind of women I can mesh with long-term.
Anyway, this opposites attract stuff is a very big topic and I have more to say about it, but this article is already running long so Iâll stop there. If thereâs more demand for this, Iâll follow up at some point with a part 2 to this article.
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Please change “complimentary” to “complementary”  (and then delete this comment). They have different meanings. It distracts from the excellent content.
As an INTJ personality type, that doesn’t like parties and all the extroverted stuff [even though I don’t hate it] what the best strategy to find this complimentary girl? it is hard to find those at my age because there is a tremendous pressure that those girls in my age in today society going to clubs and change their personalities.
I cannot wait till I am 30 and nor should I want to [try and] change my personality. damn.
Interesting stuff especially the part about genetics and mixing races because this
is so fucking true. I would like a part 2.
What else did you write other than Sampson and the Wizard and a few small stories on this blog? Do you have any fictional books planned in the near future? I would like to read some.
But does this keep the attraction? Or is it just another type of neediness?
I’ve been thinking this whole opposites attract for a while now and it seems its a dead end. I like women who are girly girl and feminine. Among other things(ie appearance) that’s what really makes me want to make a move on a girl. But when the relationship starts I’m truly attracted by women that have variation in their traits in relation to my traits. For example I like women who love traveling, know their movies and do not sleep half way through, like deep theme discussions and are not moody all the time – those are the similar traits. I also like women who are into girly stuff – that’s opposite trait.
But what makes me extra horny is the woman who is a giver – something that is not similar or opposite trait. If a woman comes and says “Sit down and relax I will cook for you” I will get up and fuck her right there and then. If we go out and buy something together and she rushes to pay and insists with a smile on her face I will want to take her home and fuck her immediately. And I’m in the middle of the giver spectrum. I like to cook occassionally and I like to give to people occassionally.
So all these are very confusing to me. Other than the first few months and during the NRE phase opposite attracts doesn’t make much sense. It’s the same with a dominant having a beta. She is still not attracted to him even if she stays with him.
Targeted flattery? đ Everyone who works on a skill, even if only by observing and reflecting, gets better at it over time. No one improves at anything just by getting older.
Interesting stuff, again, I certainly don’t have the answers, but suspect it’s something like this:
For long-term relationships, you need to be similar in terms macro-level, big-picture stuff (like attitude/philosophy towards life, major life interests/hobbies etc). For me this would be women into fitness and travel.
But you need to be opposites when it comes to micro-level stuff. Possibly introversion vs extraversion, details vs broad strategy, very emotional vs robotic…etc. I’m definitely more attracted to emotional girly girls, with a detail-oriented mind.
Physically, I’ve always had a strange obsession with girls who have nice legs…bizarre.
I am definitely interested in a sequel to this article.
Something not covered but what most people probably deem part of compatibility is the mainstream/blue pill concept of assortative mating (for some reason this platform doesn’t recognize the word) . That each person mates or should mate with a person that is of similar attractiveness level, race, and socioeconomic background. There are probably a significant amount of people that abide or try to abide by this concept, due to pressure to conform rather than their actual personal preferences. As usual, people that can by-pass this and many others aspects of conformity are probably happier and better off than people who cannot.
Searching “opposites attract science” brings up scientific results that confirm BD’s statement: “The answer is yes⌠and no”
There are some types of opposite that work well together, such as an extrovert and an itrovert, but generally we prefer people similar to use because it validates our worldview.
Is Jenna the girl you fucked first time on your birthday? The one who made a guest post in this blog?
Mixed folk are very attractive! It’s ridiculous.
Yes, I agree, there needs to be a polar distribution of same and different traits for there to be high attraction.
I’m 4’9 and like em tall BUT I am very attracted to men with a similar body type as me. So a tall version of my body. Slim, a bit sinewy.
Also, I am introverted and slightly robotic. Guess what? I’m really into introverted men with very expressive faces (big eyes, wide smile) which is different from my poker face. Their smile blows mine out the water.
Weird thing: I have 20/20 vision and highly attracted to men who wear glasses.
So James Spader in his physical prime does all sorts of things to me.
Man, that guy had some psychopathic game when he was on Boston Legal.
Secretary (2002) is a gem and Crash (1996) is one of the hottest films I’ve ever seen–all thanks to James.
Done.
Use the Cream of the Crop model I describe in my book. Go out and go on lots of dates and have sex with lots of girls via FB and MLTR relationships, and one will eventually appear. Massively field-tested.
Yes. Read this.
No. Attraction has nothing to do with it when you are not compatible with someone but are decently complementary.
Pretty much, yep.
I’m not sure why you’re confused. What you described is pretty much what I described; women with opposite traits and some identical traits attract you a lot. Same with me.
True, but I’ve mentioned before that I’ve known a lot of women over a period of 10-20 years, and I don’t see much improvement as compared to men over the same period. I do indeed think that men tend to improve more/better than women over time. (Though, to be fair, this could be because men start out at a much lower point in life than women do. That’s certainly possible.) All I know is that I’ve seen way too many women with big problems, and have those same set of problems 10-20 years later, whereas more men seem to eventually get their shit together.
Yes, I agree completely and I think that’s a very good way of saying it.
Yes. This kind of SP is rampant in Asia.
If a woman is hot and low-drama, I don’t give a shit about how much money she makes or what economic strata she in. Both my mind and my cock don’t even register that.
What can I say. I’m a genius. đ
No, but good memory! That was “Jackie.” She was many years ago; Jenna was from just the last few years.
To be fair, the description I made for Jenna could easily apply to several different women in my past. I’ve been with a lot of women, and a lot of different types of women, over the last 10 years.
BD, Great article. I have never really thought about this on a deep level but after reading your article and thinking about it; I agree with you and think you are correct. It does seem that if someone is completely opposite or completely similar that at first the chemistry is very strong but will die out quickly. If there is a balance,; with more opposites and some similarities , it seems to work best. Thinking back throughout my life, I have experienced it myself in my relationships. The best relationships I have had over the years, have had that balance as well as a good balance of compatibility and complementary aspects. They kept the chemistry and passion that the unbalanced relationships did not.
yes more on this please.
Check out hybrid in botany.
Two very selective strains of a plant get cross bred and the results are super productive.
Opposite drives interact.
Genetic similarity theory: you are drawn to the similar (we may view this as an extension of the human drive for safety, thus also comfort)
Something I can’t recollect the scientific name of, but I would call Genetic Complementary theory: you are drawn to the unlike-you (we may view this as the drive of our DNA to mend its deficencies, and become more balanced and fit overall).
These two drives effect the attraction we feel. Whom we shall pair with for the couple to enjoy relative stability, peace of mind, and durability, is all but another kettle of fish.
After long experience, I’d say that order-givers pair well with the direction-needful.
It’s only we, the real independent, who see being outer-directed as a no-no but “dominating” as a meaningless chore, who have the hardest time finding a long-time partner…
I have tried countless women, and they either want to boss you around or want to follow you as sidekicks (both things unconsciously, as is normal).
You might as well have restated your being an INTJ… đ
However, I think you are more “feeling” than you would believe.
The robot types don’t notice a lot of things that you notice, this is sure.
I definitely find that for me (especially on the physical attraction side) that opposite attracts. I’m a tall white guy and i find black and mixed black women extremely attractive as long as they are not taller than me (although that’s rare).
I am attracted to white women of course but they have to be blessed more with the good looks. With black or mixed women i tend to be not as bothered if they not overly pretty in the face as long as the body is half decent. White women i tend to be more fussy, it’s strange.
Personality wise I’ve always been more attracted to women who are more similar to me it’s just finding the right combination of the 2 personality and looks is not easy.
Most of the time though when i see couples i always notice that they have a lot of similar physical traits more so than couples who look completely different.
Thought provoking article BD!
An interesting bit of science I’ve read that corroborates what you’re saying pertains to the impact of smell on attraction.
From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_odour_and_sexual_attraction#Body_odour_in_selection):
The resulting breakdown seems to be that, people in general prefer mates with an immune system that is orthogonal to their own, increasing the breadth of immune exposure of the potential offspring.
Interestingly:
So, apparently it’s important to smell nice when meeting a woman! Who knew?!
What is absolutely imperative for any long-term relationship with stability is that your primary values are the same. You must agree on the things you value and don’t value.
Sex and attraction really has nothing whatsoever to do with that, though. That is based more on the other person having traits that would make for smart, healthy, long-lived, attractive children, and then erotic tension of not yet “owning” that person.
The longest-lasting super hot sex I ever had was with a guy who had the total opposite values to me. We fucking hated each other. But the attraction was strong enough that we kept dating and breaking up for like 2 years. He had zero respect for intelligence, curiosity, knowledge, facts, or learning. Literally none. Â Which are kind of the most important things in life to me. The fact that I read things and knew facts infuriated him. And he was obsessed with me having a baby with him and always trying to convince me how cute it would be. All he cared about was family, religion, and sports — while I am avowedly not interested in children, not that big on family, and uninterested in either religion or sports. Anyway. If we had had to live together one of us would have eventually ended up up dead from murder or suicide, literally. So that is the kind of opposites that can NOT be together. Your values must be aligned.
Sexual attraction unfortunately requires some tension to have a spark. Which works at cross-purposes with someone you are otherwise compatible and comfortable with. The best sex is after a little argument or you’ve been apart for a while, not after you’ve been together getting along seamlessly wonderfully for weeks on end. Sadly. :/
With personality traits, it is good for some to be similar, and others work better being complemented with opposites. Introvert and extrovert pair well together, as do cautious with risk-taking. Others work better when they’re the same, such as intellectual open-mindedness or emotional neuroticism.
As far as the biological aspect, most people want to retain whatever genetic traits they have that are advantageous, while mating up with the traits that are disadvantageous. Short people virtually all want to mate with a person that will give them taller sons. Highly intelligent people like Ashkenazi Jews are not usually super psyched about watering down their IQ by dipping into the gene pool with dummies. Etc.
I always wonder if it is actually the case that cross-racial people are truly all better-looking or if there is some selection effect going on there. For most of history, it was very taboo to have children with someone of a different race and one faced all sorts of punishments (it was even illegal in the US not even 100  years ago). So for people who did, it was probably because they met someone REALLY attractive, to be willing to break social norms that way. Which would mean that the people having kids outside their race are more attractive than average.  We see the results of average white dudes having kids with the best looking Asian women for instance, or average white chicks having kids with the hottest black guys. But if it was just average 5s from each race? I wonder if their kids would end up as good-looking. Maybe so, maybe not.
Also there is some confirmation bias where people notice and remember the most extreme examples of cross-racial beauty, such as where someone with tan skin ends up with light eyes, which is always very striking. But they ignore all the others who are not special looking. I’m not going to use names because it’s mean to talk about children’s looks, but there are plenty of celebrities with mixed children (just like straight-race children) that are ugly.
Also, I disagree with Duke about assortative mating. I think people really should stay in their own lane, if you are talking long-term relationships. Short term it doesn’t matter. But long-term, because everyone wants to get someone better or at least equal, in my observation when people don’t match up fairly well, the “higher” person (ie person with more/better options) will eventually end up breaking up with the lower person. Or at the very least resenting them dreadfully and probably not being very nice to them. Which can be exhausting for the lower person trying to constantly retain their partner. A fairly even balance is more stable and what ends up happening naturally when there is freedom of choice by both parties, because the market becomes very efficient without a lot of gains to be exploited by either party from asymmetries. I think I may have posted this before, but as Louis CK says, nobody fucks down:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_BPt18sbyQ
“Chemistry” is not about personality. It’s about your immune system. People seek out partners with immune system genes that they don’t have. Our bodies identify these people by smell.
It’s an instinctive, biological mechanism, and nothing whatsoever to do with the silly excuses that people make for their own behaviours. In fact – ‘chemistry’ is perhaps the clearest, most concise way to express what is going on.
BD check out this channel on youtube (Entrepreneurs in Cars), you could do something similar
I think you also have to relate it to SMV in general. Women start high and drop, men start low and rise up. After peak SMV, women might start their carreers, but that doesn’t really matter to their SMV. For men, they usually look better (read: more masculine) as they age, and they might start their careers, which in this instance does increase their SMV.
However, the amount of younger women that have their shit together (or will get their shit together) is starting to outnumber the men by far. Men get shit carreers and work shit jobs while women become academics (also outweighing STEM fields by now). While the SMV won’t change, I think we’ll begin to see a lot more women “get their shit together” while the males go completely to shit. Bad for the male sex, good for the guys who can stay on top.
What I mean is that in my view pre relationship and at the beginning of the relationship what seems to boost attraction is your second diagram. After a while and well into the relationship what seems to boost and keep attraction is the first diagram and specifically the traits that seem to be neutral towards your traits. But then again this is not always the case. That’s why it is so confusing to me. And after a while the girly girl character won’t play much role if she doesn’t have many similar and few neutral traits. Not sure, but if I had to categorize these things well into the relationship the opposite traits would have played the smallest part in terms of attraction.
Another possibility is something like the so-called uncanny valley in robotics. When someone’s traits match yours, it’s great. When these differ from yours significantly, you recognize it and accept it. But when they seem to be going in the same direction as you, but doing it wrong, that’s a turn off.
@Krypto
Yes!
Yes! But sexual tension can be created even with a person very similar to you. Also there’s more to that than just it.
No. That’s exclusively for men who don’t mind drama. Give me a silly argument when I’m trying to be sexual with you and my dick will go limp for at least 24 hours!
This I agree. Being apart restores some freshness to everything.
You just had the answer above! Be apart for a while and reset the whole damn thing.
P.S. Glad you’re posting here again, I was missing your inputs!
@Kryptokate
“The best sex is after a little argument or youâve been apart for a while, not after youâve been together getting along seamlessly wonderfully for weeks on end. Sadly. :/”
This is unfortunately true. I purposely don’t see girls I’m dating too often to keep the interest level high and to create that tension. Most girls start asking to see you more and more as time goes on not realizing it will eventually kill the desire. I think it’s partly because people want to keep you out of the loop as a backdoor way of getting you to be exclusive. If you’re with this person most of the time, if not all in a cohabitation situation, you’ll be less likely to chase other and not have the energy to do so anyway.  It then becomes “de-facto monogamy” as has been discussed by BD on the blog.
Sure they get a little pouty when I decline to see them more often but the sex continues to be great and we always have fun when together instead of making grocery store and bed, bath and beyond trips.
RE: BD vs. JEB debate on women ‘improving’ –
When BD refers to women not improving (as much), and retaining their problems long-term, I gotta say JEB – I don’t think that has anything to do with career, although you could certainly read it that way.
I think where BD is spot on is with regard to emotional problems and relationship problems. I mean – a lot of women just get WORSE in this regard with age. And I think that’s due to a mixture of bad SP along with an endless supply of white knights and pussy beggars who enable and perpetuate shitty female behavior.
Clear example –
Guy and girl are dating, out on a date. Girl has too much to drink, and very publicly treats guy like shit. What does society say? “She just had a bad night. Guy didn’t need to buy her that 3rd/4th drink. She was feeling insecure. That kind of thing just happens unfortunately, but the guy should definitely forgive her.”
VS.
Guy and girl are dating, out on a date. Guy has too much to drink, and very publicly treats girl like shit. What does society say? “What a monster. How dare a man humiliate a woman like that. That’s emotional abuse right there. She deserves better than him. She should kick him to the curb and never speak to him again.”
OK – it’s because of THIS right here that BD is correct. Women are forgiven for everything, men – not so much. So women do their worst, because they can. I don’t really care that a man’s value can only be attained by *doing*, by *improving himself* etc -while women get value from doing….nothing (but looking good enough). That’s nature and biology, and it may be unfair but I’m OK with it because it’s the order of the fuckin’ universe. But the whole thing about ‘she gets forgiven for everything while he’s a fuckin’ monster for doing the exact same thing’? Maybe when I’m like 80 I won’t be bitter about it anymore.
Yeah, I was exaggerating. I have plenty of feelings; I just make sure they’re all positive. There is rarely a use for negative emotions.
That’s very true and I’ve said that before, but that doesn’t contradict what I said. In my experience, women who have big life problems tend to still have them 10-20 years later, and whereas men tend to clean them up in that same time frame. (There are plenty of exceptions to both rules of course.) This is just my anecdotal experience; I have no data to back that up.
Weird. I have not had that experience. “Neutral” traits never really turn me on, before, beginning, or during a relationship.
That’s a female stance in my view. I have never, ever felt this way. Drama has never made sex better for me; if anything it turns me off and makes it worse.
I think that’s part of it, yes.
I think there is a natural, forward-moving momentum that happens more often with men than with women. (Not all men, but with men in general.) Many reasons for this. Yes, society is more forgiving of “loser” women; that’s one. Women also think in the backs of their minds that some white knight could appear someday and solve her problems, whereas men never have this belief. Etc.
@ Crab  LOL! Ug, joint shopping trips to Home Depot or the grocery store — shoot me now. Funny because when I was college age, I used to think doing that kind of stuff with my boyfriend and holding hands in the store was just the best most romantic thing. Now I unfortunately know where it leads eventually.
But it’s so hard to stand strong on these kinds of demands. All of society is conspiring against you. And most people just can’t seem to get it that you need to regulate your pleasure if you want it to remain pleasurable. A bit of artificial scarcity is a good thing.
@ POB and BD Â Interesting, you said the same thing about drama. I don’t think the whole “make up sex” thing is just a female view because there are plenty of guys who recognize that sex after a fight is usually better. If only because of the contrast between negative and positive emotions, or the increase and release of tension. But I know you are both unusually intolerant of drama.
I wonder how much that is because when you think of a fight or argument, you imagine woman drama, which means emotional drama. I really can’t stand emotional drama either, if it means someone is going to cry or try to guilt me or feel the need to express their suffering and victim-like emotions in a way that I feel is emotionally manipulative. I REALLY hate any drama from women and therefore avoid confrontation at almost all costs with my female friends because I just can’t stand it and I will cave to someone using tears and sympathy against me. But I don’t have the same dread or desire to avoid an argument or “fight” with a guy because they don’t usually bring that same kind of emotional drama. In fact I only dislike arguing with a guy if it’s about something that men are particularly irrational about, like for instance their driving.
But generally I actually enjoy arguing/debating, so long as it’s with someone who isn’t going to get their feelings hurt — usually that means a man. It’s fun, it’s like playful mutual combat. Like a game. Maybe this is weird but I like wrestling too. Not like the technical sport, but just…playfully trying to pin down or avoid being pinned down by someone while also not hurting each other. I always loved wrestling and play fighting as a kid (I think all kids do?), and I still do as an adult… it’s fun to wrestle with a boyfriend and see if I can fend him off of pinning me down. Not bad exercise either. Just a way to blow off a little hostility and tension in a way that no one ends up hurt. More people should do it.
So anyway, I kind of see most “fights” with a guy in that light…not generally harmful and maybe a little edgy but also sort of fun and not necessarily filled with a lot of “drama”. Usually there is laughter mixed in with an argument or wrestling match. đ Â Only time I ever had real horrible actual drama fights was with that guy whose values were totally opposite of mine.
So what I’m saying is maybe your aversion to arguments/make-up sex is because you’re presuming emotional drama. But what if it was a male friend and you and he had a minor conflict. In some sense wouldn’t it be kind of more fun and maybe better for your relationship to just have a 20 minute wrestling bout to get out your aggressions, rather than “talking”? Argument/makeup sex is kind of like that, but even better.
I have actually suggested before to boyfriends and friends that rather than having to “communicate” about emotional issues (which I find to usually be a covert way attempt to manipulate for self-interest), that we could just slap each other or wrestle or something physical that isn’t harmful. People don’t usually take me up on that offer and think it’s a fucked up idea. But seriously I would so rather just be slapped in the face than endure having to sit through some hour long emotional sharing session when one of my female friends says “we need to talk”. Anyway, that’s way OT.
Yes, that’s because the woman is clearly enjoying it more. If you’re enjoying it more, I’ll be enjoying it more.
But yes, there is indeed a percentage of men who enjoy drama to some degree, and those guys will feel more like you. I have indeed seen these types of men talk about how they love “makeup sex.” Yuck.
Great for them, but I’ll pass. Give me awesome, passionate, happy sex, not “makeup sex.”
There is a distinct difference between arguing and debating. They are not the same thing, and the difference is very important.
Debating is when you debate a topic that is not likely close to you personally (like a political one), hopefully in an objective way (though sometimes not, sadly).
Arguing is when one or both of you are actually upset about something, and you’re discussing something highly personal (and likey ego-driven). The discourse is never objective and always emotionally negative.
I love debating (obviously). I hate arguing and never want to do it. Arguing is a form of drama. Debating is not (though some debates can eventually morph into drama; that’s when I end the discussion, since I don’t do drama).
The guy I have the best sexual chemistry with is different than me in some ways. He’s extremely masculine and into guy things. He says he can’t sit through a chick flick without falling asleep (boo!!). He and I were playing jeopardy on his iPad on the plane and we would do well in completely opposite categories lol. Like he would win in sports and I would kill it in music. He’s an ESTJ and I’m ENFP. So we are both extroverted but that’s about it. He’s soooo unemotional and a rigid black and white thinker. He’s the one planning everything out and telling me to be at the airport 2 hours early and I’m rushing in just barely making it at the last minute. Sometimes it frustrates me but at the same time it’s such a stress relief to be around him. If there is any kind of problem he’s calm and patient and has a solution. I never have to worry about ANYTHING when he is around. Patience and calmness are definitely not my virtues. In that kind of way he’s complimentary because while I can multitask like crazy I can’t keep a schedule to save my life. I’m always changing plans at the last minute. I’m not sure what he gets from me but I’m sure there must be something because he likes hanging out with me- ha! Maybe it’s for the entertainment value lol. He has said before that his world is a cold one (he travels constantly and everyone he works with are scientists and engineers) and I guess he gets the warmth and emotion from being with someone different than himself. Yet we are both driven and competitive and workaholics. He barely sleeps. He will be up in the middle of the night working after hours of sex and after I’ve fallen asleep. Everyone at my job thinks I work 24/7, and someone today even asked me if I work like 100 hrs a week haha. We both fire a lot of people- he just feels no guilt and I feel bad even when they deserve it, it’s one of the harder things for me to do.
Now my ex husband and I had horrible sexual chemistry. He was LAZY which drives me absolutely nuts. Yet we did have a lot of similarities in other ways. He was an INFP, so introverted, but we shared other things in common. We didn’t really fight. We were both pretty non confrontational.
Polarity does make a big difference in the bedroom, I think. If no one wants to be the initiator, like with my ex and I, then nothing ever happens. If no one wants to be in the lead then no one can follow. Too many similarities can be a big turn off.
Although it might fuel your bitterness, I think you should head over to Rational Male, as I think you’d find his stuff interesting. He talks a lot about the (very correct!) differences between man-woman relationships that you described. Certainly helped me put things into perspective.
And I whole-heartedly agree with you – the betas let women treat them like shit and constantly put women on a pedestal, and they just start assuming that this is how they should behave towards anyone. However, if your frame is on par, you’ll never have to suffer this fate at all. I’ve adopted the BD zero-drama tolerance since I’ve never taken any pleasure in being cried at / yelled at / called names. After about 6 months of calibration, I haven’t heard any drama ever since from any woman, even when they pull a LSNFTE.
All women love drama (look at this thread!), but you never need to have any sort of discussion with them in order to have a happy relationship, no matter what women claim. Drama is a form of shit test – you play along, you fail. They’d rather subconsciously prefer to have a man who they knew wouldn’t take their shit at all, and who dismisses discussions (read: shit-tests) before they’re even started.
Hell yes.
I’m short, and I’m attracted to tall girls.
Guess what? Most of them are attracted to me as well.
Some women do truly favor taller men. But not all women. And especially not all TALL women.
Opposites attracting just makes evolutionary sense. Standard dating theory would suggest a 6’3″ woman would seek men over 6’7″. Yet they don’t.
Why not?
I think we are programmed to mate with ppl who will create successful offspring with us. And if we are too far away from the norm, we’ll seek — be horny for — those with traits that will bring our babies back toward normalcy.
A 6′ kid will flourish. A 7′ kid might fail badly.
I don’t see it as far fetched that our horniness would incorporate that likelihood.
@Krypto
You’re usually so rational and red pill that sometimes we forget you’re also coming from the “other side”, LOL.
Yes, I don’t like drama, silly arguments and useless conflict because that’s exactly what you’re describing. I absolutely hate it and avoid that stuff like the plague!
I don’t care if it’s with my girls or anyone else, including close family and friends. They’re completely pointless and lead to nowhere in my book, which means wasted time and energy and zero fun to me. The aftermath is I’m left in a bad state for a while which harms my overall happiness.
Make up sex means nothing to me (but I know it’s a big deal to some guys).
Semi-OT :
Mario Favela is among those who say it is essential to kiss on the first date :
http://mariofavela.com/how-to-touch-her-on-the-first-date/
Roosh says that too.
I am confused. Â Black Dragon says the opposite. Â Dates are not so common that one can try a hundred of one approach and then a hundred of the other and see what works…..
What to do?
Jesus pal, stop with the excuses. You don’t need to go on 200 first dates to see if something works. How stupid. 20 dates (10 each way) will do it.
And I would ask Roosh and Mario their actual statistics for how often they get laid within 3-4 hours of face time when they actually kiss a woman on a first date/meet outside of night game.
(I also don’t think Roosh recommends kissing on the first date/meet for daygame, only night game, which is very different. For daygame, which is more comparable to online dating, I’m pretty sure he recommends a 15 minute conversation and a number close, not kissing.)
If you’re a younger guy, dates ARE common (or should be) and a hundred first/second dates should easily be a project you could complete. Otherwise you’re in a scarcity mindset and have a whole array of other problems along with that.
Before BD, I only used night game (as I’m a younger guy myself). I said fuck it and tried BD’s approach to online dating – It took me about 3 first dates to calibrate, then I started getting consistent day 2 lays. Never kissed the girls on first date, even if the escalation window opened. The end result was that on the second date at my place (“so we could cook some food together”), clothes were usually off 1-30 minutes after she entered the door.
Does it take a 100 dates? No. Takes maybe 10 dates for calibration if you’re not the most social guy, then you’ll get results. After you’ve nailed it down, you don’t even get a hint of anxiety when thinking about the date because you already know how things are going to play out.
Could I try kissing on the first date as well? Sure! But I hardly doubt it will go beyond the 90 % success rate that is already in play, so why really bother.
Never kiss a woman until she’s sitting on your bed and you are going to have sex with her in the next few minutes. Then kiss her regularly during sex and a little bit after sex. Never kiss her again until you’re ready to have sex with her in the next few minutes or seconds again.
Never disconnect kissing from sex. That is a rookie mistake. And certainly never kiss a woman goodbye at the end of a date. That is 1950s level beta.
And never listen to Roosh about anything.
Opposites can possibly attract for personalities, but not for core values/core lifestyle/sex drive. If one person is quiet and the other is out-going, then the quiet person can feel attraction/excitement when with the out-going person (but maybe after a while has enough of it), or the out-going person feels attraction/relaxed when with the quiet person (but maybe eventually gets bored with it). If one person has a core value of being extremely religious with a core lifestyle of traditional monogamous marriage and has a low sex drive and will only have sex once a year trying to procreate, and the other person has a core value of being non-religious with a core lifestyle of Alpha 2.0 non-monogamous freedom and has a high sex drive and desires to have sex often, then opposites do NOT attract. Personally, I think similarities attract (Like attracts Like), so as a masculine man I look for feminine women who are not very religious/want to have sex frequently/and are playful fun. “Masculine” and “Feminine” are opposite, but here I mean “as sex drives” so I view them as being different genders but with the same “high sex drives.”
I have the view that kissing/escalating is only to be done when in a Private Place where sex can possibly happen (and that could be on the first, second, or third “date”). If in a Private Place where sex could happen there, and it was the “first date,” then I would kiss and attempt to escalate because maybe she is horny and wants to have sex then (even though it happens to be the “first date”) and maybe there won’t be an opportunity for a “second or third date.” The being in a Private Place is the most important part, not what number “date” it is.
My hypothesis drawn from much experience is pretty simple: Opposites draw closer the more they’re short term; like attracts like the more long term they are.
I kind of wondered this myself with interracial dating involving white women and would love your observations, thoughts and experiences BD. Seems like hot blondes and hot redheads absolutely love minorties and going interracial. You often hear of black, brown and Asian guys who are well put together doing well in countries like Holland, Scandinavian countries and very blonde countries.
Now even with brunettes, I notice it is the very white looking ones with freckles that love darker men. It is rare if not unheard of for me to see a Gal Gadot or Monica Bellucci lookalike going interracial or even going with a white guy that looks like you, they seem to worship the ground blond men walk on. My thoughts are maybe these women are insecure about their whiteness hence would pick a Larry the Cable Guy lookalike over a prime John Stamos.
Would you say that darker skinned white men and minorities looking to get hot girls stay away from going after white women that are more on the darker end?