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-By Caleb Jones
One of the most quintessential beta male things to do is to try to repeatedly have sex with a long-time platonic female friend. The problem is when PUA / Alpha guys, especially the more extroverted ones, fall prey to this voluntarily. "She's fun to hang out with. So what if we're not fucking?"
Yikes. I see this far too often, and I shake my head every time.
These guys seem to think that the friend zone is bad for betas, but perfectly acceptable for Alphas as long as the Alpha is aware of what he's doing. I'm about to explain to you why this is complete bullshit, and why having hot platonic female friends you want to have sex with but aren't is a very bad thing to do, not only for your sex life, but also for your frame, self-esteem, and social standing.
If you disagree with that after reading my below points, then great. Present your argument in the comments and make sure you present rational points to back up what you say instead of just raw emotion or opinion.
When Having Female Friends Is Okay
Generally speaking, having platonic female friends is fine. For purposes of speed I'll call them "PFF" for the remainder of this article, a Platonic Female Friend you are not having sex with and never have.
- Having PFF coworkers is perfectly fine. I have a hard and fast rule that I do not have sex with women I work with, and I hope you adopt the same rule. So PFFs at work? Totally fine.
- Having PFFs you are not attracted to in any way is also fine. You can have all the PFFs you like as long as you aren't sexually attracted to these women. Fat, ugly, or too-old PFFs? Perfectly fine. (I have a PFF who is 60 years old. She's great.)
- Having PFFs who are married to other men, and are thus unavailable, is also, I think, okay. However these are less of an issue because you're not going to be hanging out with these women as often, and certainly not one-on-one.
But what about having a hot PFF who is not married, to whom you are attracted sexually? Ah, now we have a problem...a very big one. This is a very, very bad idea. I shall explain.
The Dangers of Hot PFFs
I have a few PFFs in my life, mostly work related, but all of these women are people I am not sexually attracted to. I have no women in my life who are complete PFFs who I think are hot and therefore want to have sex with. All the women in my life I'm attracted to are women I'm actually having sex with (or ones I have nexted and gone radio silent with). You should have your life structured the same. Here are the reasons why, listed in no particular order.
1. What's the point?
Seriously, what is the point of spending time with a hot woman you want to have sex with but can't, when you could be spending your time with a hot woman you are having sex with? Really think about that for a minute. I don't think you can come up with any rational reason to do such a thing.
Sure, if you're a complete loser, and are not able to have sex with anyone because you're such a hopeless beta, then I guess it might be better to hang out with hot chicks as PFFs rather than be alone in your house. But is a hopeless beta pussy what you are? Or what you aspire to be?
Do you honestly think a woman-successful Alpha spends his precious time with women he thinks are hot whom he can't have sex with because they've friend-zoned him? If you do, you have a very different view of an Alpha Male than I do.
Why, oh why, would I take time away from my beautiful FBs or MLTRs to spend time with a PFF? It makes absolutely no sense.
2. Alpha Males don't live in friend zone.
Friend zone is for betas. Only beta males reach friend zone with a girl and then choose to stay there. When an Alpha gets friend-zoned (which is rare but it does happen), that Alpha nexts her ass faster than she can say "Cat In The Hat", and he's on to the next woman...and then shortly getting laid. He doesn't hang around and create a new sexless PFF. Hell no! Again, that's what betas do.
Let the betas live in friend zone. You have better things to do. Hold yourself to a higher standard, god dammit!
3. It damages your frame and self esteem.
So there's a hot PFF in your life whom you've tried to have sex with once or twice and she's said no, and kept you in friend zone. Now you're still hanging out with her, because she's "fun" or whatever. You still want to nail her, but you can't, and she's still right there in front of you in all her beautiful feminine glory. You can look at her, talk to her, joke around with her, spend time with her and feed her ego, maybe even pinch her ass occasionally, but you can't take her clothes off and have sex with her.
How does this make you feel? Honestly, how does it make you feel? Does this make you feel like a badass? Does it make you feel like an Alpha Male? Does it boost your self-esteem or drop it down a little? Does it strengthen your frame as a man who is desired by women, or does it damage it a little?
You know the answer. By spending time with a PFF you want to fuck but can't, it damages your self-esteem, frame, and self-worth...even if just a little bit. Does that sound like a good idea to you? Is this damage worth spending time with her just because it's "fun"? (Especially when you could be spending time with women just as hot as her you could be having sex with?)
4. It reduces your standing within your entire social circle.
This especially applies to you more extroverted guys with big social circles. When you are hanging out with this hot PFF while not having sex with her, everyone knows this. Don't tell me they don't. Word gets around fast. They know you ain't hittin' that...but you're still hanging around her like her little puppy dog...and everyone sees it.
How do you think this affects how other men view you? Does it make these men respect you? Look up to you? See you as a role model? Or a chump?
How about the other women in your social circle? Does this make you a more attractive, desirable man in their eyes? Or does it make you look like just another sycophant beta male?
Again, you know the answer.
You could respond with, "But if I walk around with this super hot chick, lots of people will think we're having sex! That will improve my social standing. Social proof, man!" Absolutely, social proof is effective, but my response to that is: Why don't you do the same thing with a hot chick you've had sex with before? Isn't that ten times better? Why the hell are you settling for the no-sex option? Especially when everyone knows?
(The only exception to the rule I can think of is when you're introducing yourself to a new group of people you don't know. Then yes, the social proof might do you some good. But I'm talking about social circles here; people you know.)
I think Alphas who defend spending time with PFFs are just being lazy. It's so much easier to get social validation from your hot PFF you can hang out with whenever you want than it is to go open 20 new women and get laid. I think this kind of "Alpha friend zone" becomes a comfort zone built from laziness rather than the desperation of beta friend zone. But it's still friend zone, and it is still harmful to you.
Hey, if you are, and want to continue to be a hopeless beta male, then ignore this advice and do whatever you want. But if you want to be an Alpha, you cannot be spending time with hot PFFs you want to have sex with but can't. Take that time and instead put it into achieving your goals, your Mission, or having sex with other women.
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lazy guy 2014-05-01 06:18:19
Good points BD. This post intrigues me in the way it touches on many aspects of the connection between how you think and how you live your life, and the trap of subconscious presumptions about options & limitations. Guys who could do better but settle for less may be handicapped by subconscious pessimism. Also, they may be under the illusion that they have unlimited time to do everything they find even mildly enjoyable (as if they will always be this young etc.). My view of my life is that I don't have time to waste on second-rate options in any area (people, reading, movies, etc.). Each option chosen has an 'opportunity cost'. A man can be handicapped by being more pessimistic than he consciously realizes. His insidious pessimism can be very self-limiting, preemptive, etc. Your level of optimism plays a crucial role in your life. Maintaining a good level of optimism requires more than just 'lip service'. It's interesting how simply acting on a basis of optimism &/or self-respect reinforces that mentality (even before you get any desirable results/responses), just as the converse is true. I have to keep reminding myself it's not enough just to make a conscious effort to sustain my optimum state of mind; I must keep putting it into action, for many reasons: to make it most genuine, to reinforce/sustain it, and to get good external benefits from it.
danton 2014-05-01 06:19:04
Yes, I confirm, it happened to me once, being married and having other women around as fbs, but the fact I spend it time(but not spending any money...) with that PFF woman damaged my standing in my social circle, and I even had some self esteem issues in that period of time. You're absolutely right in every point, and as a conclusion, after I've gone radio-silent for months, she starts to attract me again, but I'm not interested anymore, her behaviour finally lowered my sexual attraction toward her, and it's for sure a trap, or a price I cannot or I don't want to pay(she's 38, single mother, very provider hunter). Again, a very objective post!
Darius 2014-05-01 07:23:54
My first instinct when reading the article's intro was "Oh come on, you're being too harsh", but then I did the math with my own circles: After excluding women I'm not attracted to, women I slept with and few other cases (explained below), there's only 1 woman that I am attracted to and occasionally see every 5 or 6 months through mutual social circles. But even with this case, I mentally nexted her after a "no go" due to her being unavailable at the time. By "other cases" I mean situations when you meet women occasionally through mutual social circles, hang out, have fun in those events, but don't go for lay because another girl "reserved her spot" for that night. So anyway, despite my initial urge to disagree with the idea, I can't really make a case to disagree. Heh. On the other hand, the 4. point did ring a bell and shed some light on one peculiarity: when handing out with dancers (circle with few men and a lot of women) I used to wonder how good looking guys, leading the interactions and surrounded by women are able to lose any sex appeal within the circle so fast after they fall for one of their partners but stay in the friend-zone. Interesting. Btw, when you write "hang out" do you exclusively mean one-on-one?
Raven 2014-05-01 08:40:48
Funny post. I don't see why anyone would do that kind of thing other than being a beta. Like Darius exemplified, if you're living an alpha life, it's kinda unnatural to have around a hot woman you're not having sex with, or at least not working towards that goal. You're either with her, or you stop wasting your time and treat her as a simple acquaintance and go work on more important things and women who are actually interested in you. No point in investing in a relationship that's not to the benefit of both parties.
Sparks 2014-05-01 09:03:53
I was very guilty of this in the past, even as recently as last year I let an 8 do this to me over a period of several months until I realised it wasn't going to go anywhere. My life has been much better since I limited attempts to get with any particular woman. If she isn't interested after one or two tries to get her out, it's cheerio and straight onto the next one, no complaining, no whining. Just walk away. Some women have probably never had a man do this before and it drives their hamster crazy.
Sparks 2014-05-01 09:08:13
"I have a hard and fast rule that I do not have sex with women I work with, and I hope you adopt the same rule." I do indeed BD and always have since I started work. In my profession I reguarly work with women aged 18-24 and over the years have had more than a couple of them suggest that 'maybe we could hang out/go for a drink sometime'. I have seen the disappointment in their eyes when I tell them about my rule. One even said 'rules were made to be broken' haha. They're very tempting but it's just too messy in the long run. There's too many other women out there to need to bother with work colleagues.
Blackdragon 2014-05-01 09:23:41
In the past I've had a lot of guys argue with me on this point. I'm surprised to get so much agreement. Perhaps it's Darius's point that guys "want" to disagree but really can't. Interesting.
Also, they may be under the illusion that they have unlimited time to do everything they find even mildly enjoyable (as if they will always be this young etc.). My view of my life is that I don’t have time to waste on second-rate options in any area (people, reading, movies, etc.). Each option chosen has an ‘opportunity cost’.Exactly. Most people live life as if they're immortal.
Btw, when you write “hang out” do you exclusively mean one-on-one?Yes, primarily. I think hanging out with a PFF in a BIG group of other people is probably okay. One-on-one or in a very small group, not okay.
I have seen the disappointment in their eyes when I tell them about my rule. One even said ‘rules were made to be broken’ haha. They’re very tempting but it’s just too messy in the long run. There’s too many other women out there to need to bother with work colleagues.Remember, just because you can't play with them while you work with them doesn't mean you can't after they (or you) quit the job. Get their personal contact info and hang on to it. As soon as either one of you leave the job, it's game on. That's exactly how I met pretty much all the women I dated as a beta in my early 20s. 🙂
FudgeMan 2014-05-01 10:08:47
BD, I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with you. If we end up in a debate you'll most likely change your mind and add a bunch of stipulations to the above. "Friendzone" is only bad when your a low sexual market value PUA monkey that has bad social skills. Now, let me say I used to think friendzone was to be avoided at all costs, until I realized it was really just a weirdo "PUA" social retard stance. Tons of "naturals" ( think, buff handsome popular dudes ) usually hang with hot girls as well as have a team of women they are also fucking. Sometimes the women they hang with end up banging them, sometimes not. But these dudes don't care. They are socially well adjusted and are friends with all kinds of people. If they "shunned" all women as friends they would probably take a major hit in their social life. High end social circles usually have lots of hot women in them. It's a fact. Now what I will agree with is that no guy should be a little bitch boy like the dude in the picture painting that girls nails. I would say a good rule of thumb is this: If she is friends with you but still treats you like a MAN, then cool. If she starts to treat you like a girlfriend and in no way see's you as a MAN, then next her and realize you have some serious work to do. The cool "naturals" I mentioned up above who hang with hot chicks they don't fuck are never ever treated like a "girlfriend". The women still see these guys as MEN. I think this is why the "friendzone" is so feared and hated on around the PUA/Manosphere circles. Most of the guys in these circles have very low sex appeal or sexual market value, so women don't even see them as men. When these men become friends with a women they are treated like girlfriends, not MEN. Then other guys see this and say "WOW friendzone is horrible!!! FUCK THAT". They never see a normal healthy friendzone between a hot girl and a guy that gets plenty of ass elsewhere. I think put another way, it's the reason you get friend zoned that determines if it is "healthy" or not. The dude in the pic up above painting that girls nails got friend zoned because he is a pussy with no sex appeal. Meanwhile a high SMV man gets friendzoned because the girl for some reason isn't ready for a guy like him, doesn't want to be pumped and dumped, isn't available, thinks it would be socially bad, or perhaps the guy friended her ON PURPOSE so he can hang in her circle. Just like you would want to be friends with a cool dude on purpose to get access to "cool dude" stuff... you can friend hot girls to get access to "hot girl" world. Only a total aspergers case cannot see this. Check out this link by good looking loser. He outlines in more detail what I just said. I have to agree with him that most guys who are afraid of friendzone are probably have hate for women due to low sexual market value, or are just weirdos. http://www.goodlookingloser.com/entry/basic-guy-game/how-to-make-friends-with-random-girls BD, if you have any counter points I'd love to debate this.
Amperbroekie 2014-05-01 14:35:11
I had a PFF who was my next door neighbor.It's pretty much the same category as co-workers.It was very convenient to go to parties with her,she looked after my flat when I was away and even disconnected my car battery when I left for a long holiday and forgot to do it. I remember that at one party one drunk girl made fun of me,thinking probably that I was a friend zoned beta as they saw me often with the neighbor girl.Later I learned a lot of people thought this. Retrospectively I think I should not hang around with her as it indeed damaged my social standing in a way.On the other hand it delivered me sex from another girl from the same social circle, who was convinced I had sex with the neighbor girl and ,as she later admitted, I had a massive social proof in her eyes.
BOSS 2014-05-01 15:29:50
no bitches in the circle is the motto. can't stand to listen to them if there is no ass involved. the fuck do i care about your contemplating a boob job type of convoz.
Jon 2014-05-01 15:52:34
I'll offer a counter argument. 🙂 First, I agree that volunteering for the friend zone and then trying to have sex with the woman is a bad idea, but what if you don't try to have sex with her and instead friend zone her? A hot woman with a lot of social connections could conceivably have more value as a source of meeting new women than as a sexual partner. You'd could implement a mental attitude similar to the "don't sleep with women you work with" rule to avoid falling into orbiter type behavior and kissing her ass which would damage your reputation and frame. To make a business analogy, I guess it's kind of like having a referral source that would also make a good client on their own, but you don't pursue it because you're better off with the work they send to you than work you might do with them directly.
Pairo 2014-05-01 21:08:16
Good post! Agree with it for the most part. Hot ladyfriends are helpful in social settings. Much of this post focuses on when you hang out with ONE hot girl, what about hanging out with 2-3 hot girls as friends? Walking into any situation with a group of female friends instead of just one almost eliminates people thinking you are "friendzoned." On the other hand, people see you as the leader of the pack and trustworthy, charismatic (assuming you have confident body language without being douchey). A group of female friends make for the best wings, hands down. I know a few guys with a core group of female friends, who they consider untouchable, that meet new women from their PFFs winging/social proofing when they go out.
Vaquero357 2014-05-01 22:17:45
This--> "Seriously, what is the point of spending time with a hot woman you want to have sex with but can’t, when you could be spending your time with a hot woman you are having sex with?" The primary point - maybe not the only one, but the MAIN one - of hanging out with hot women is to have sex with them. If I want to hang out with somebody to discuss the news of the day, debate whether the .30-06 or the .308 Winchester is the better hunting cartridge, analyze Wagner's Ring Cycle, or argue blondes vs. brunettes, THEN I'll hang out with guy friends. BTW, after 25+ years in the workforce, I can only vigorously endorse BD's "no hanky panky with the co-workers rule." As a bonus, when one of you eventually leaves the co., she'll probably be extra ready to meet with you because you're that cool guy who has not been instantly available to her.
Darius 2014-05-01 22:54:19
I'd like to share one last insight that struck me after reading comments: why would someone trust a woman, who doesn't find him fuckable (considering she's available and all that), to be his wing-woman to attract other women to fuck? 🙂 Yes yes, I know she said you're "the greatest guy" and "I'd like to find a guy like you (but not you)" 😛
BeastMode 2014-05-02 05:26:49
BD great post, Someone guys naturally like catering and being betas. When I usually try to point this out to Betas they get hostile so I just let it be. But all and all it's better for me :)I pull easier...
MasterDev 2014-05-02 15:48:58
I think you are overlooking a few things BD (though I enjoyed the article). For #1 what's the point?: There is a saying you can never have too many friends. What if you genuinely like hanging out with her? What if she is as smart and fun to be around as she is good looking? Also, her being a hot chick there is an instant in with her other hot friends (I would have hooked up with her friend after meeting for just a few hours one night if I wasn't so damn drunk!) As for the other points I would say I don't go parading around with her as if I'm trying to get with her, though I would take the opportunity if it presented itself. Furthermore, I move on (as anyone should) and don't wait around for her to sleep with me one day even or if ever it would happen. People within my social circle rarely ever see me with her. That being said, I would not just give up this friendship just to appear to be more alpha to those around me. That is a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot with both your friendship (platonic) you enjoy and the "chance" of a hookup at a later time. Why in the world would anyone blow themselves out of the water like that?
MasterDev 2014-05-02 15:58:06
As a follow up point to my previous post, something I can't stress enough. I do ABSOLUTELY no ass-kissing or catering to her whatsoever! I treat her like I do all other women in my life (minus my family of course). There is no following her around like a puppy dog- obviously only AFC's do that kind of shit. Another thought as well: having her in my social circle when meeting you women increases the competition in their minds and gives me an instant boost- something BD hit on earlier.
BeastMode 2014-05-02 17:59:15
Hey Guys, First and foremost we are talking about hot PFF's that we are attracted to but won't put out. The negatives in staying in this predicament far outweighs the benefits. 1.) Sticking around messes with your frame and makes you complacent. 2.) Automatic beta status she becomes the Alpha. If you next her ass and check back in a few months she might have respect for you and put out. Never settle for this and thinking you are going to bone her friend not in this life time buddy. Let me know what you guys think...
MasterDev 2014-05-02 18:27:50
Beastmode, your nexting example negates your #2 auto beta status argument. You don't have to fuck every person in order to out alpha them.
sparxx 2014-05-02 18:43:11
I think the really hard damage to your frame occurs when this woman 1)starts to talk about the guys she has been with or, even worse, 2) starts hooking up with other guys in your presence.
Blackdragon 2014-05-02 18:49:52
The dude in the pic up above painting that girls nails got friend zoned because he is a pussy with no sex appeal. Meanwhile a high SMV man gets friendzoned because the girl for some reason isn’t ready for a guy like him, doesn’t want to be pumped and dumped, isn’t available, thinks it would be socially bad, or perhaps the guy friended her ON PURPOSE so he can hang in her circle.I disagree with your entire point, because the reason why a woman friendzones you is 100% irrelevant. What is relevant is that she's hot, you want to fuck her, and you aren't allowed to. This still applies if you're a "MAN" or the greatest Alpha Male in the universe. I do agree that a hardcore Alpha won't be negatively affected as much as a pussy beta, which is why I said in the post it damages you "at least a little". But "a little" is still worse than zero. Again I ask, what's the point of incurring even a little of this when you don't have to? And certainly a high SMV man doesn't have to. So what's the point? Jon -
First, I agree that volunteering for the friend zone and then trying to have sex with the woman is a bad idea, but what if you don’t try to have sex with her and instead friend zone her? A hot woman with a lot of social connections could conceivably have more value as a source of meeting new women than as a sexual partner. You’d could implement a mental attitude similar to the “don’t sleep with women you work with” rule to avoid falling into orbiter type behavior and kissing her ass which would damage your reputation and frame. To make a business analogy, I guess it’s kind of like having a referral source that would also make a good client on their own, but you don’t pursue it because you’re better off with the work they send to you than work you might do with them directly.If you friendzone a hot chick for the specific purpose of fucking her hot friends, and you actually go do that instead of just thinking about it or attempting it and failing, then yes, you've found a very unusual exception to the rule. But you and I both know that 99% of men reading this are not going to do that, even women-experienced men. They might say that's what they're doing, but they're just rationalizing the fact they tried to fuck her and failed, but still want to hang with her. Pairo -
A group of female friends make for the best wings, hands down.100% agree. I'm not discussing wing women or social proof pivots. I'm talking about friend zone, which is bad, and I will repeat, there is no reason for. Wing women and and PFFs are two completely different things in my view (Jon's unusual example notwithstanding). MasterDev -
I think you are overlooking a few things BD (though I enjoyed the article). For #1 what’s the point?: There is a saying you can never have too many friends. What if you genuinely like hanging out with her? What if she is as smart and fun to be around as she is good looking?As I told FudgeMan, none of these change the fact that you're hanging out with a woman you want to have sex with but can't. My point is that's going to damage you at least a little, so why do it? Some of you are using that same argument I mentioned in my post. "If you're a real Alpha badass, then friend zone is okay!" No, it's not. The fact you want to have sex with her and can't makes it bad, at least a little, no matter how you can rationalize why she's doing it, why you're doing it, or how you behave with her.
BeastMode 2014-05-02 19:07:26
MasterDev, why hang around a woman you want but can't have? Women crave attention why give her your attention-for what? in exchange for perceived higher social status, ultimately you lose.
MasterDev 2014-05-02 19:36:50
Beastmode I don't want her that bad, but I wouldn't turn down sex with her. I do still like hanging out with her and sometimes her friends regardless.
Faust 2014-05-03 10:15:45
I can see the reasoning behind it, and how it is probably good advice for clingy or needy types, but Blackdragon, this seems a bit over-the-top. For example, I was in a mono-relationship for most of last year. During this time, I made a new friend through my social circle, let's call her Cindy. Cindy is pretty hot. Totally fuckable. Since I was in a mono-world at the time, though, it wasn't something that I tried to make happen. Cindy and I have since become quite good friends. I have been single for a couple of months now. According to this post, because Cindy and I are not having sex, and she hot enough for me to fuck, I should drop her as a friend, and refuse to spend time with her one-on-one or even in a small group?
Blackdragon 2014-05-03 10:46:06
If you strongly value your frame and outcome independence, yes. You certainly don't have to "drop her as a friend", but you should absolutely should stop hanging out with her one-on-one. (Unless you get sexual with her of course.)
jack 2014-05-03 15:18:45
The PUA community advocated making friends with women only under specific conditions. 1) WingWomen. Make friends with attractive women and use them as social proof or "Outsource" your sagging to them. This is advanced. Very few guys will ever be able to do that. But making a hot woman your wing woman for a night or two, that is doable. But don't fall for the wing woman. I have a feeling most guys will fuck this up. 2) Girls that LJBFed you. The community used to advocate turning failures into wing women. If she LJBFs you, you turn around and say fine then lets hang out as friends at club X on night Y. Again, this is advanced. Most guys will fuck this up too. 3) Pivots. Make a female friend. Don't hit on her or try to sarge her. Invite her out with her friends or to a social event. Then use her as social proof. Keep a stable of these girls. Its a good strategy but again you need a solid frame to pull this off and not get connected to the girl(s). But outside of that, BD is absolutely right. Platonic friends with an attractive woman you want to bang is dangerous. No need to do it.
Eldm 2014-05-04 11:18:26
It's a personalty thing as well: While this is pretty apparent for more introverted men, extroverted men have a harder time seeing this because of their need to have people (these hot female "friends" included) around them more.
Jon 2014-05-04 13:09:09
If you friendzone a hot chick for the specific purpose of fucking her hot friends, and you actually go do that instead of just thinking about it or attempting it and failing, then yes, you’ve found a very unusual exception to the rule. But you and I both know that 99% of men reading this are not going to do that, even women-experienced men. They might say that’s what they’re doing, but they’re just rationalizing the fact they tried to fuck her and failed, but still want to hang with her.Yes, I agree. It would have to be the intention going in and not a fall back position after trying and failing. I would also say that the woman should have a lot of connections that can help expand your own social circle. If she's just a hot girl with some hot friends, I'd just go for her and not bother with a more complicated friendzone strategy.
Ted 2014-05-05 08:08:14
I hang out with a hot pff..so far I've had sex with two of her friends and she came out and winged for me for a couple of nights very successfully. I also have a non-hot pff and had three of her friends. It's all about social circle. The non-hot girl cock blocked a couple if times though but the hot one was happy to set me up. If you have a crush on your hot pff though I would agree to next her. It will mess with your internal frame.
It-Began-In-Africa 2014-05-14 11:25:00
One of my favourite songs distills this sad behaviour into a profound lesson for all you friend zone loving dudes: Half way to Paradise by Billy Fury. Good job, BD.
Dawson Stone 2014-05-19 07:30:48
Generally I agree with your points but I can think of at least one exception in my own life. I have an ex gf who I broke up with because while she was hot and great in bed she was also bat shit crazy and a ton of drama. She still holds out a little hope that we might one day get back together but even though she is super hot, I just don't feel drawn to her any more because I know what it comes with…drama I don't want. As a friend, she's great. She often buys me dinner. Watches my dog when I travel for business free of charge. Gets me into the club she works at for free and comps drinks. She mostly wants advice from me on life, etc. which I am happy to give. I care about the girl and want her to be happy. She made me miserable so no way its gonna be me that makes her happy. In fact, I laugh as she tells me about all the drama she is creating in her guy-of-the-week's life. Bottom line, ex gfs that YOU dumped for good reason but still ended well can be good friends with no downside. QED
GCM 2015-08-27 09:03:28
First off, I wish I had found this blog years ago! The more I read the more I realized how much I fucked up and let chances slipped away! I now see these as learning experience. Its embarrassing to admit but thanks to this blog I am a fucking beta! And I need to change this now! There are so many things I wish I was aware I was doing wrong! But since this particular post open my eyes to something that am currently dealing with, I have a few questions. Firstly, I think I already know the answers but I would like some expert opinion. I have this neighbor, actually I could say flat mate. We live in small 2 storey one bedroom house. She lives upstairs and I in the downstairs. I would say overall shes a 7, classy and sought after by quite a few guys. At first I saw her as only a friend, but now I wouldn't mind making her a FB or MLTR. I know this is a bad idea since its almost like your coworker rule and could be disastrous, but am still considering it since I have a lot of trial and error learning to do. Now, this is where I screwed up, when I moved in almost a year ago she had a long distance boyfriend until a few months ago. The beta bitch in me had her over 4-5 times since then and never made a move on her, afraid of the mess it would be if she rejected me and have to see her everyday. Two out of that was when I made dinner which she enjoyed, and the other few times were when she ask to continue watch a tv show we started watching a while but didn't finish (She came over lastnight to continue watching). I sure am pretty much fucked by end up friend zoned since I didn't escalate to something more! Should I just cut my losses and avoid hanging out with her or make a move and hope for the best?
Blackdragon 2015-08-27 10:45:21
Normally I would say make your move and then hard next if she balks (knowing that your odds are low since you already screwed it up). However, you live with her, so an ongoing sexual relationship would be virtually 100% guaranteed to give you drama. Therefore, I wouldn't try anything; I would just avoid hanging out with her completely as much as humanly possible and put her out of my mind (unless you like drama, then go for it). Once you or her moves out, then you can go for it if you still want to.
GCM 2015-08-27 15:39:01
Appreciate the response. I think I will have to avoid her, since my chances are already low. I certainly don't want the drama when having other chicks over. I sure don't want to have to move since apartments are hard to find in my area, and I've already invested too much time and money in turning my apartment into a nice little bachelor pad! She did mention she may be getting transferred to another district before the end of the year. So I might wait until closer that time to try again, that way her moving would make it easier to turn her into an FB when am visiting that area, that's if she doesn't balk! Thanks again for your valuable opinion.
K 2015-09-03 08:56:55
Knowing that if she doesn't fuck me (immediately or ever), I have to stop seeing her equals outcome independence?? What about valuing people for who they are regardless of any sexual tension? That would be truly outcome independent. If you have to stop seeing someone because you can't handle your attraction to them, it's outcome dependent, ergo beta...
Blackdragon 2015-09-03 10:08:38
Knowing that if she doesn’t fuck me (immediately or ever), I have to stop seeing her equals outcome independence?? What about valuing people for who they are regardless of any sexual tension? That would be truly outcome independent. If you have to stop seeing someone because you can’t handle your attraction to them, it’s outcome dependent, ergo beta…Read this post right here, then tell me if you really think she's "valuing you."
K 2015-09-03 11:55:26
I'd read the post before. I certainly agree that torturing yourself by seeing someone you're strongly attracted to / infatuated with who doesn't reciprocate these emotions is self-harming and hence not a good idea. My point was twofold: 1. People (men and women) may bring various positives to your life other than sexual pleasure 2. When you care about sleeping with someone to the point you feel you're "wasting your time on them" or "hurting your image" when they don't follow your programme, you're not outcome independent.
Blackdragon 2015-09-03 13:02:56
Let's not fart around. Just like the other guy who threw a shit-fit about this in the other thread on this topic, the only reason you have a problem with this advice is because there's currently a cute girl in your life you're in friend zone with and don't want to dump. If she wasn't around you wouldn't have an issue with what I'm saying, and would likely agree with me. Therefore it's unlikely you're going to agree with me no matter how clearly I make my case. But for everyone else reading, here's why NOT doing what I recommend makes you're outcome dependent. I have lots of female friends who have great value and who bring me happiness purely as friends, but I fuck them too. I have platonic friends who have great value and who bring me happiness purely as friends, but I don't want to fuck them at all because they're either men or unattractive women. In other words, under my system, I'm A) losing nothing, and B) experiencing zero unhappiness. A cute girl you want to fuck but whom you're "not allowed" to fuck whom you spend repeated time with is going to make you unhappy to some degree because of sexual frustration (and other reasons), regardless of the other positives she brings to your life. (Sexual frustration is not a positive emotion, thus the word "frustration.") Moreover and more importantly, other people you can go meet and befriend can bring you these same positives but without any sexual frustration. You have a guy buddy who buys you your favorite coffee at Starbucks. This makes you happy. The next day he punches you in the back, hard. This makes you unhappy. Every week this repeats, coffee (happy), punch (unhappy). I tell you to dump him, because he's making you unhappy (by punching you). You tell me that's a terrible idea, because he also makes you happy (by buying you coffee). You also give me some defensive Societal Programming about how "he's a person and has value." I tell you that's all irrelevant. He's punching you. I tell you to go find a new friend who buys you coffee at Starbucks just like this guy, but without ever punching you. If you still refuse this advice, it means only one of two things: 1. You secretly like certain levels of unhappiness in your life. I admit there are people like this. (I am not one of them.) If hey, as I've said before, if you like unhappiness to certain degrees, then you can stop reading my stuff right now and go do whatever you like. or 2. You secretly believe, even if it's on a subconscious level, that you can't ever find another friend who will buy you coffee like this. Thus you cling to Mr. Back Puncher. This is not only outcome dependent, but scarcity mentality at its worst.
RED 2015-09-15 13:02:46
Everything, including my gut tell me that BD's direction is spot on. The dilemma I'm facing is that Iv barley been out in 2 years and since meeting a PFF she's pushing me to get out, tidy my image up and enjoy more things I let slip, slip badly. I knew very early on it was going against the grain but thought ''its a stepping stone, be her mate on condition I'm getting SOMETHING out of it'' but I'm struggling, I DONT like the idea she can have me as a friend unless she treats me as a man first and that's only by giving me what she gives others. BUT I lose too....I'm losing something that was an impetus, intelligent, witty and being foreign to where I live a more liberating attitude to sex, life etc. We used to have a mans sharing post like this once upon a time in Ireland....it was called a PUB!
Shanghai Bobby 2015-11-11 13:10:13
Hiya BD, Would you consider the "not sure" category similar to the Friendzone category? Because if a girl isn't sure, doesn't she put you in the FZ until she is sure, then you're out of FZ? I recall an ex of mine putting me in the FZ when I first met her. I tried to kiss her, she said no, we can only just be friends and I concurred that I'd like nothing more than to be her friend. I then got her around the next week and we went all the way. Cheers, SB
Blackdragon 2015-11-11 23:18:40
Would you consider the “not sure” category similar to the Friendzone category?No. That's ASD, not friend zone.
I recall an ex of mine putting me in the FZ when I first met her. I tried to kiss her, she said no, we can only just be friends and I concurred that I’d like nothing more than to be her friend. I then got her around the next week and we went all the way.You were never in friend zone. That was ASD.
Anon 2016-02-22 02:46:56
I went to stay with a girl for a few days who I liked very much. It was on at first but I failed to make a move and I can pin point the moment I was dropped into the dreaded friendzone black hole from which there is no climbing out!. I tried to make a half-hearted move after that but my advances were rebuffed. There I was on the last day masturbating in her shower while she sat in her lounge in her tight jeans and sexy high heels. I have stayed friends with her on facebook in the vein hope that if I stoke the fire it may relight but it is dead. After reading this post I have deleted her from facebook and her numbers on my phone and will never speak to her again. I have enough friends thank you. I do not need any more.
Rob 2016-03-02 21:01:55
Hey BD! So, got an ex gf who I was with before I learnt about game, when we broke up I stupidly decided to be "just friends". So was pretty sure I was stuck in the friend zone. Anyway fast forward almost 4 years, I've been sleeping with plenty of other girls, hadn't seen her for like a year while she had a new boyfriend, she broke up with him like a month ago, and she decides to come see me perform and then come over afterwards. Anyways, we talk a bit, then start getting hot and heavy, she's totally dtf. I go down on her, but cannot for the life of me get hard, just not happening despite being intensely mentally turned on by her. Has this basically fucked up any chance of this happening in the future, or should I just wait like four months then invite her over again?
Blackdragon 2016-03-03 09:27:41
Get some viagra or cilais ASAP then invite her back over to your house ASAP.
joelsuf 2016-03-31 19:24:18
Your articles are awesome, I'm spending hours reading them. Most of them pretty much echo things I believe and say. But here's a question: I have pretty much an equal amount of PFFs as male buds. Only thing is most of my PFFs are married or in other monogamous relationships. And if they are chicks who I intended to date but couldn't have sex with, well I keep them as buddies, lose my attraction for them, and move on. But I don't drop them cuz who knows I might be able to get with one of their buddies. Is this in your view acceptable? I don't pine after any chick ever, and the last one I caught feelings for told me herself that I was an idiot for catching feelings then dropped me like a bad habit. So I'm like "alright, no more catching feelings ever. Lesson learned." Here's a funny story that is actually one of the BEST lessons I have ever learned with chicks. With one PFF in particular, we dated and I tried to have sex with her but she was a "virgin" (aka: Not attracted to me) who was "waiting for marriage" (aka: Waiting for a better looking dude to hit it) so I friendzoned her. And the friendship was one sided, in my favor instead of hers: Everything that chicks brag about the friendzone I was bragging about. I was like "what the hell is going on here? SHE should be doing this to ME, not the other way around." Well a couple years later, she ran through 8 or so dudes, I ran through a couple of chicks (I've always been way too lazy to get out there enough to rack up crazy amounts of lays lol), and we start casually dating AGAIN, only now we don't live in the same place. We're coming back to her place from spending the whole day together, and it is clear that she wants sex. But I had to leave right away, so foolishly thinking that I could just fuck her whenever I wanted. BAD move. She's disappointed in me to this day. She'll never say it directly, but yeah. She wanted me to hit it and my dumbass didn't. Although a part of me is glad cuz it may have turned into an LTR and it possibly could have ended the friendship. We're still buddies to this day, but I'm not attracted to her and she isn't to me. And we like it that way. But I'm still perplexed at it. Moral = DO NOT leave a horny chick out to dry, she'll never let you forget it lol. Hit that shit STAT if you have plans on hitting it in the future.
Blackdragon 2016-04-01 12:03:17
I have pretty much an equal amount of PFFs as male buds. Only thing is most of my PFFs are married or in other monogamous relationships. And if they are chicks who I intended to date but couldn’t have sex with, well I keep them as buddies, lose my attraction for them, and move on. But I don’t drop them cuz who knows I might be able to get with one of their buddies. Is this in your view acceptable?I addressed this above and in the other friend zone article. If you are repeatedly and reliably having sex with many female friends of your PFFs, then having PFFs is acceptable. If you've never done this and are just fantasizing about it (or maybe have done it once or twice in the last several years), then you're just being a pussy making excuses and need to next all these women.
A True Alpha 2016-07-15 12:11:32
Comment deleted for violation of Rule Number One.
Gil Galad 2016-09-20 03:12:54
BD, you advise against having female acquaintances you're attracted to; what's your take on girls who are about to come of age (in a few months for example) ? Do you recommend ghosting them until they blow their candle ? Edit: I've just thought of something else: what about having a PFF who is below an 8 (for example) when you're a guy who has a "never fuck less than an 8" rule anyway ? He'd be mildly attracted to her but she'd be a 6 or 7 to him and therefore out of the pool he's vowed to choose from in the first place.
Blackdragon 2016-09-20 22:16:56
BD, you advise against having female acquaintances you’re attracted to; what’s your take on girls who are about to come of age (in a few months for example) ? Do you recommend ghosting them until they blow their candle ?Yes. The fact you want to fuck her is the problem, not the legality of you fucking her.
I’ve just thought of something else: what about having a PFF who is below an 8 (for example) when you’re a guy who has a “never fuck less than an 8” rule anyway ? He’d be mildly attracted to her but she’d be a 6 or 7 to him and therefore out of the pool he’s vowed to choose from in the first place.No. You either want to fuck a woman or not. Her exact level of attractiveness isn't relevant. Stop trying to find exceptions to this. You won't find one.
john 2017-12-30 09:51:41
I don't know. I was friends with a woman I was sexually attracted to just this summer. I was with other women so a couple texts a day didn't hurt. I never tried to bang her. Until I did. Then I banged her. repeatedly. She was a friend so she would be on her way to work, stop off, hook her laptop up and bang the shit out of me while she read her emails. Put her clothes back on like nothing every happened and go back to work. looking back it ended horribly and we are no longer friends.. So yeah your probably right. never mind
Katrina Hoffman 2019-03-10 13:21:42
So...having only grazed this article, it’s pretty clear that you are resentful towards attractive “superior” women and have thus objectified them down to sex objects. Clearly you wish you could resist their devilish charms, but you can’t control yourself, so you have made it some sort of mantra to feel in control when you actually are not. Maybe if you stopped valuing your worth solely through who will or won’t have sex w you you’d find this whole social scene or whatever you keep referring to doesn’t even matter.
Blackdragon 2019-03-10 17:31:52
So…having only grazed this article, it’s pretty clear that you are resentful towards attractive “superior” women and have thus objectified them down to sex objects.Read some more articles here about what I have to say about the importance of long-term relationships, never lying to women, never having one night stands, (OLTR) marriage, and other similar toipcs. Then come back and say that.