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-By Caleb Jones
Today I’m going to list all the options available to men in the modern era, along with their pros and cons. I will also discuss the possibility regarding children for each. You will quickly find that while every option contains numerous problems, some are much better than the others.
These are listed in no particular order, but I’ll start with the worst option first, just to get it out of the way.
1. Traditional monogamous marriage
This is what I’ve always called a TMM. This is when you legally marry a woman, expect and promise lifetime monogamy, and don’t sign a prenuptial agreement. (Please don’t tell me you’ll get a prenup if you choose this option. The stats clearly show that you won’t.)
In the modern era and Western world, this is, by far, your worst option. As I discussed in detail here, your odds of success with this option are less than 13%, and that’s based on post-2009 figures which have all grown worse since then. The odds are at least 87% that you will either get divorced, experience an affair (you’ll cheat and get caught or she’ll cheat on you) or end up in a shitty, soul-killing marriage that never ends. The price for this very-likely failure for a man is ridiculously high, financially, emotionally, and spiritually.
The men who choose this option are those who are either needy, ignorant, or highly delusional. Hopefully, this won’t be you, though sadly I know that many of you will eventually surrender to this option.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? Yes, though the odds are high you’ll screw them up a little when you get divorced and both you and your (ex) wife hate each other. Kids feel this and are affected deeply by it.
2. Serial monogamy marriage
I’ve discussed this one here. It’s the same as option 1 (legal marriage, monogamy, no prenup) except that you secretly don’t care if you get divorced later, as long as it’s many years “down the road.” You’re almost sort of planning on it.
This is the option most women choose. However, as divorce rates continue to climb, it is gaining growing popularity with many over-30 Alpha Male 1.0s
This option is only for high-drama, high-emotion guys who secretly enjoy chaos, drama, and/or problems. I acknowledge that there is a percentage of men out there like this. If you enjoy big highs and terrible lows, and get off on these ups and downs, then I guess you may go ahead do the serial monogamy marriage thing. But if you don’t like unhappiness, this option is not for you.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? Yes, though you're even more likely to screw them up than with option 1.
3. Be a player forever
This option means you stay in Charlie Harper mode forever, well in your old age, even as a very old man, eventually switching to paid sugar babies or hookers as your looks deteriorate.
This option is barely worth talking about because very few men will choose this option. The vast majority will chose to settle down and pair bond in some form or fashion. Regardless, it's still an option technically.
The only big problem with this option is loneliness. I have never seen a guy choose this option and not wrestle with recurrent feelings of loneliness. Some form of pair bonding is more conducive to long-term happiness for a man, particularly as he gets past age 35.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? No. You will only have kids if they're accidents; then have fun with the child support.
4. Permanently move to the third world
Under this option, a man moves to a third world country where traditional lifetime marriage still (somewhat) works, marries a (often much younger) woman under a monogamous marriage, and stays in that country for the rest of his life. (This option is not when a man marries a woman from the third world and brings her back to the West. That’s simply another variation of option 1 which doesn’t work. As soon as she gets some white girlfriends and westernizes, she’ll divorce your ass faster than you can say “Robin Williams.”)
Though I will never do it, the third world option is a perfectly valid option for the men with the balls, personality, and the lifestyle to uproot his life and permanently relocate to a crappier part of the world. Other than monogamy and high odds of cheating (and thus drama), I see nothing horribly wrong with it. I just know that very few men actually follow this option even if they say they will.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? Yes. Surprisingly, this option is actually perhaps the least-worst option for having kids in the modern day world.
5. Celibate MGTOW
Under this option, you go full-bore MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), swear off women forever, never date them, and never have sex for the rest of your life.
Yikes. I just got a malevolent chill down my spine by even just typing those words. Like with forever player, very, very few men will choose this option. As problematic as women have become, the hard, undeniable reality is that men like sex. More importantly, as I demonstrated in the Alpha Male 2.0 book, when men deny the fact they are sexual creatures, it damages them as men.
I guess if you're one of those weird men who hate sex, celibate MGTOW might be fine(?). But for the other 95% of you, you're going to have to find a better option for maximum long-term happiness.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? No.
6. Be a serial monogamist forever
This option means that you have a constant stream of short-term (three years or less) monogamous relationships, one after the next, for the rest of your life, even well into your old age.
Like with option 2 (serial monogamy marriage), this option is for Alpha Males who secretly like highs and lows, though they’re not as addicted to problems like those option-2 guys. This option is particularly suitable for men who are more controlling or who don’t have high sex drives.
While I’m against monogamy, I do admit this is a valid option for certain personality types. You’re monogamous, which means you’ve handed your balls over to a woman, and that means there’s a permanent ceiling on your freedom and happiness once the NRE phase is over. You’re also getting dumped a lot which won’t be fun for you. However, at least you’re not putting yourself at risk of divorce and other massive catastrophes.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? No.
7. Polyamory forever
This option means that you have many short-term and long-term polyamorous (MLTR) relationships throughout your life. These relationships will not be live-in relationships (though some can be if you get creative and if your drama tolerance is higher). The man choosing this option never really pairs bonds with one woman into an OLTR, instead always has a steady rotation of FBs and MLTRs, or perhaps even a modern version of polygamy.
There is no problem with this option other than the fact that you will eventually have strong desires for pair bonding and will experience some loneliness in this respect, somewhat like (though not nearly as intense as) the forever player. However, this could easily be overcome by always having a high-end MLTR whom you like “the best,” which is an almost pair bonding (but not quite).
Can you properly raise kids under this option? No, unless you get very unconventional, and even then, I don’t think it’s a good idea.
8. Serial OLTRs
This option is self-explanatory. It’s just like the forever serial monogamy guy, except in this case you have OLTRs instead. You have a pair-bonded girlfriend you don’t live with, and you love her and are committed to her only, but you (and likely her) are allowed to get a little on the side sexually with FBs when needed.
It’s very possible (and even likely) that a man can oscillate back and forth between this option and option 7, having FBs/MLTRs sometimes, an OLTR at others. This is probably the ideal option for most Alphas seeing long-term happiness. This option is a distinct possibility for myself as I get older if I never get to an OLTR Marriage.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? No.
9. Open Marriage (OLTR Marriage)
An OLTR Marriage means you have an OLTR with whom you live full-time or part-time but do not legally marry. You can still have sex with other women on the side, within whatever ground rules you both agree to. Legally married or not, your finances stay completely and legally separate. You do have long-term expectations for the "marriage," though you're not delusional and thus don’t plan on it lasting the rest of your life. However, if does that would be great. I describe it in great detail here.
This is the second-best option after option 8 for Alphas seeing long-term happiness. It has all the advantages of being married “for real” with virtually none of the risks or downsides. You are living with a woman, so there are some risks that you’ll have to manage, but other than that it’s a pretty good deal.
Can you properly raise kids under this option? Yes. This is the second least-worst option for having kids other than the third world option. You will still likely get “divorced” under this option, but unlike the monogamous, legal divorces, there will be much less hard feelings between the parents. This will be less harmful for the kids.
Here are the options listed in the order of best-to-worst for men who want to pair-bond someday:
Serial OLTRs OLTR Marriage Third world (if he wants kids) Serial monogamist forever (if he doesn’t want kids) Serial monogamy marriage Traditional monogamous marriage
If a man never wanted to pair bond with a woman, here are the options from best to worst:
Polyamory forever Player forever Celibate MGTOW
Lastly, it’s really important to understand that none of these options are prefect. You could find big problems with all of them. The days of the perfect male long-term marriage/relationship scenario have been gone for several decades now. Today, we’re left with options that are not “best” or “worst” but instead are “least bad” or “really bad.” So if you want to tear apart any of the options I said are good, remember that no matter what you say, you’re still comparing them to options that are worse.
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Will 2015-06-11 11:31:25
I really like the idea of option seven with a couple of option eight's ( virtual OLTR'S ) when the pair bonding need increases. However, as you get much older your standards may drop off a bit but you need to be very careful that they don't drop too much and you sign up for an OLTR marriage when you don't want kids , which must be the primary reason you would get into an OLTR marriage in the first place.
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 11:38:27
you need to be very careful that they don’t drop too much and you sign up for an OLTR marriage when you don’t want kids , which must be the primary reason you would get into an OLTR marriage in the first place.That's a great point and not one I addressed in the post. I've had to realize that any woman I long-term pair-bond with will likely either have kids (making me a step dad) or want kids (making me a dad). The only way around this, assuming you want to long-term pair-bond with someone, is to do it with a 40+ woman who already has kids who are grown and gone and can't have any more (an unlikely for option for most Alphas). So YES, you need to consider this reality when thinking through how you want to pair-bond. Step dad, dad, or older woman? Pick your poison. As usual, there are pros and cons for all three.
Greg 2015-06-11 13:39:42
"Step dad, dad, or older woman? Pick your poison." Ugh. I refuse to bond thusly. How short a term should I expect for my pair-bonding?
grampy_bone 2015-06-11 14:01:51
MGTOW doesn't actually mean celibacy, though it's a common misconception. It just means interacting with women on your own terms instead of theirs or society's terms. You are fully and completely MGTOW, Blackdragon.
Will 2015-06-11 14:05:49
Thanks, definately made me think. Serial OLTR'S " you have pair bonded with a girl you don't live with" so unless I choose to have MLTR'S / FB'S forever I'm either going to be a father or a step father which is a duel OLTR which means i am going to have to buy/rent another house!! Which in the grand scheme of things is a small price to pay for not losing all my future assets in Divorce/alimony.
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 14:19:48
“Step dad, dad, or older woman? Pick your poison.”
Ugh. I refuse to bond thusly. How short a term should I expect for my pair-bonding?
3 years or less. After 3 years, you're getting into dad-zone, because she's going to eventually want a baby from you (or your help in raising the kids she already has).
MGTOW doesn’t actually mean celibacy, though it’s a common misconception.
MGTOW is a series of levels. At the extreme end, it does indeed mean celibacy. Many MGTOWs strongly espouse this, and strongly hate anything having to do with fucking women or PUA.
More moderate MGTOWs are like me.
That's why I was careful to say celibate MGTOW and "full-bore" MGTOW and not just MGTOW.
so unless I choose to have MLTR’S / FB’S forever I’m either going to be a father or a step father which is a virtual OLTR which means i am going to have to buy/rent another house!!
You don't necessarily have to rent/buy a second home for Virtual Live-In OTLR. In my open relationships ebook I provide many other less expensive options.
CrabRangoon 2015-06-11 14:30:59
I'm guessing since I don't want children that serial OLTR would be my best option. There's always the option of later in life being with a woman that has grown kids(over 18) so I have no role in raising them but would still have a semblance of family for my older years. I see no reason to lock into one woman, definitely not in a monogamous sense, at this stage(I'm 37). Again I feel like OLTR would work best for me-I enjoy sexual variety and have no issue pulling multiple women(no scarcity mentality from this guy), but I also do enjoy the companionship of a relationship from time to time. I need to check out your books on getting women on board with this situation. It's the only way I'll find enduring contentment I feel.
Mort 2015-06-11 14:50:20
Personally, my plan is to play the field until my fifties or sixties. I really have no desire for children. I've done LTRs in the past. I've done rotations. One thing I want to try is polygyny but it's a matter of finding two compatible girls. I will NEVER get married. It just seems like a path to slavery to me. Once I hit my sixties, the plan is to buy a cabin in a forest or a house on a hill or by the sea and spend my endgame in meditation.
Sachmo 2015-06-11 15:58:09
Option 10 - The Temporary Child-Rearing Monogamy You start out as a young man as outlined in option 7 with MLTRs. This continues until you hit somewhere around age 30, or whenever you are far along enough in your life mission, that you are ready to start a family. Could be age 43. One girl shows much greater long term potential for pair bonding and having children. Having read 'Opening Up' and evaluated what little statistics have been published on open relationships, you recognize that while Open Relationships are great if you have no intention raising kids - over a long period of time, they are definitely *less stable* than monogamous relationships. Meaning the dissolution rate of open relationships is greater than the dissolution rate of monogamous relationships over a given period of time. (See Note 1). So for the sake of starting a family, you enter into a *temporary* monogamous relationship with this girl, fully expecting the various problems associated with monogamy to arise. To mitigate these problems you: 1) Get a cohabitation agreement in place before she moves in. 2) Keep all assets separate. 3) Push for having kids outside of marriage, but realistically because you've been beta-ized a little bit, grudgingly accept a marriage but with *PRENUP ONLY* in an enforceable state like Florida. You are not like the other idiots who don't sign a prenup, you have balls and more importantly other options, and will dump her ass if she doesn't sign that prenup. 4) Sign a parenting plan prior to her getting pregnant. 5) Genetically test kids before signing birth certificate. You accept various restrictions on your freedom while the children are very young and put up with some drama during the early child rearing stage (say up to age 6). After about age 6, your tolerance for drama and sex withholding decline a little bit, because your kids have some stamina to handle a divorce / breakup. After about age 13, your tolerance for drama dramatically declines, because your kids have much more stamina to handle a divorce / breakup. If during this time, drama reaches a subjective, 'critical threshold level' you break up regardless of kid's age. If during this time, the lady completely withholds sex, or it dips to less than every 2 weeks (barring periods around childbirth) you: 1) breakup regardless of kid's age 2) get your needs fulfilled outside of the relationships - disclosing fully that you are doing so, but not specifics. She can make the choice to breakup with you, deal with it in silence, or put out. The rationale behind Option 10 is that you are willing to accept some diminished happiness while raising kids. After the kids turn 13, you begin to push for the Open Relationship as outlined in Option 8 or Option 9. If by 18, she doesn't relent, and there is some drama or sex withholding, you part ways and revert back to option 7 or 8 which are the best options if you are not raising kids. _______________ NOTE 1: While a highly rational man (a clear minority of men) can hookup on the side with FBs for *decades* without getting his feelings involved, it is far less likely for a woman to have this level of emotional control. Over many *decades* she will eventually fall in love with one of her FBs, and either you 1) accept some weird messy triad shit, 2) dump her and move on to another MLTR, 3) She dumps you and moves on to another 'primary' relationship or lowers you to FB status. This is fine if you don't have kids. If you have kids, the relationship will break up sooner than otherwise, based on what little statistics / anecdotal evidence I've seen.
Kryptokate 2015-06-11 16:38:58
Sachmo's got it down. Two questions: 1. Why is it that people should get "lonely" when they're older if they're single? If they're not lonely when they're younger, why be lonely later? This isn't just about one's declining sex appeal as they get older, because that will happen whether or not you're in a relationship, so I don't see how that's relevant. Why is it better to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to fuck you anymore than to be single and no one wants to fuck you anymore? And as far as companionship, can't one enjoy their friends? I don't think anyone truly wants to "settle down". That desire is more a fear that no one else will be left because *everyone else* is pairing up. It's a fear based on being the last one without a chair when the music stops, not an affirmative desire to claim a chair. But if no one was living with their sex partner(s), then this wouldn't be an issue in the first place and I think this fear would go away. I just don't understand why friendship gets totally devalued in our society, once one is out of their 20s. It's pretty well proven in the psychological literature that people enjoy time spent with their friends more than just about anything else, and certainly more than time spent with their kids or spouse. So why abandon the importance of friendships at age 30 and then get all supposedly "lonely" when everyone could decide to keep those friendships going and then there's no reason to be lonely. Sex is a separate issue, and again, long-term relationships don't solve that issue so premising the argument on that doesn't even make sense. Besides, even if someone DID actually have a long, happy, monogamous relationship, eventually one of you is going to die and the other may easily live for another 10 or 20 years. But you get to have more than one friend, and you can always make new ones. And friendships aren't subject to the same unreliable whims as romantic relationships. I really think people need to just get over the idea of domestic/living/financial arrangements being entwined with romantic/sexual arrangements. That was a necessity in the past. It isn't anymore. The minority of people who like to live alone should live alone. And everyone else should live with their friends, since it is easy to maintain long, stable friendships over decades, much easier than maintaining sexual attraction and romantic love. This seems like the obvious solution. I get that it isn't acceptable yet and may be hard to convince a woman to go this route but I predict this will be the way people live in the future once they get over the idea that sex and domesticity should be related. It seems that a lot of people don't trust that they'll be able to keep friends. Which makes me think that they don't trust themselves to be likeable people that someone would actually choose to spend time with. They'd rather the security of knowing that someone is forced to care about them because of blood or marriage, rather than the insecurity of knowing they have to be an enjoyable person so that others will choose to care about them. 2. Why don't people have kids with someone that they think would be a good parent, and who they work well with, but never be in a romantic relationship or live together in the first place? Most people are going to end up divorced with split custody anyway. So why not just start out that way? Pick your co-parent on the basis of actual good parenting ability rather than sexual attraction. This would be much more rational, and if you and your co-parent never lived together, the kid wouldn't go through the trauma of a family break-up. I never wanted kids, but if I DID, this seems like the best way to go. Besides, the worst thing about parenting is that it's 24-7 365 days a year. If you always lived separately from your co-parent, then you both get necessary breaks because the kid isn't always with you. Sometimes the kid lives with mom, sometimes with dad, and both mom and dad like and respect each other and get along well and are mutually devoted to loving and raising the kid well. Pick someone based on their parenting attributes, shared values, good genes, and ability to work well with your parenting style. Then draw up a child-rearing agreement, get pregnant the old-fashioned way or through artificial means, and have the kid and raise it separately. Just don't get involved romantically in the first place. Romance is just a biological trick to get you to raise kids with someone anyway, so why not act directly by making a deliberate choice of your co-parent rather than letting your hormones make child-rearing decisions for you? Again, I realize this isn't yet acceptable or feasible, but it seems like the most rational way to go about things and I can see it happening in the future. It's just a pre-emptive divorce with a much more solid basis for picking the parent of your child(ren). Also, I know I'm way out of line with most people's thinking and admittedly, I'm about as anti-family-values as they come. I never personally found family to be enjoyable. It's a bunch of people you wouldn't pick to be friends with if you had the choice (unless you luck out). I've always preferred friends. And I don't get why people at a certain age become so intent on abandoning the people they actually like in order to become duty-bound and obligated to a bunch of people they either don't like (in-laws) or might not like (kids they haven't met yet) or will eventually not like as much once the sexual attraction dies down (spouse).
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 16:56:24
Sachmo, your option is simply a slightly less horrible version of option 2: Serial Monogamy Marriage; getting married and monogamous with the intention of getting divorced later. Indeed, most men who choose option 2 do it for the exact reason you stated: "Well how else can you have kids??? Long-term open relationships don't work!!!" The problem with your scenario is that you're banking your entire relationship on your wife not getting sexually frigid or dramatic until exactly when your youngest child is the "correct" age for you to get divorced. Most men pursuing your option are going to be blindsided when they see their monogamous wife start refusing sex or going into bored drama-bitch mode WAY sooner than they planned on...often within just 3-4 years after the marriage, when the the kids (if any) will still be small babies. These men will end up divorced, cheating, or converting to an open marriage WAY sooner than 13 years (or whatever). Which means the entire plan failed.
it is far less likely for a woman to have this level of emotional control. Over many *decades* she will eventually fall in love with one of her FBsThat certainly can happen, but I personally know a hell of a lot of women who have been married longer than 10 years, some longer than 15, with wide-open marriages with kids, who are perfectly happy and still love their (usually beta) husbands. When men say this, it's usually an excuse to not get into an open arrangement where their woman is fucking other dudes.
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 17:01:33
Why is it that people should get “lonely” when they’re older if they’re single?
If they’re not lonely when they’re younger, why be lonely later?
Because when you're really old:
1. You can't attract quality sexual partners the way you used to.
2. You can't or won't want to spend the time and effort to date and get laid.
3. Most of your friends will be married (massive peer pressure conducive to loneliness).
4. You (usually) will have less friends and engage in less social actives.
5. You will have poorer health and less physical energy, thus creating a feeling of dependence you didn't have when you were young and vibrant.
2. Why don’t people have kids with someone that they think would be a good parent, and who they work well with, but never be in a romantic relationship or live together in the first place?
Because that directly opposes the massive Societal Programming which states the exact opposite.
I personally think your idea is a decent one, but virtually no one else in society (outside of this blog) will agree.
Amanda 2015-06-11 17:57:50
I have a male coworker who I think is an Option 2 guy. He's still paying alimony from his first marriage, and is engaged to be married again. I suggested he look into getting a prenup this time since he expressed concern about getting divorced down the road and having to pay MORE alimony. He looked at me like I was crazy, and said, "No way! That's SO unromantic!" This guy is 31, a brilliant chemist, fairly attractive and very outgoing/charismatic. I couldn't figure out why he would want to take a risk like that for the longest time. Now I get it ... the guy loves drama or at least tolerates it, and has an idealized vision of marriage and his fiancee (he kept repeating that this girl was "different" because she had a higher education level and salary than his first wife, and therefore, marrying her without a prenup shouldn't be TOO risky).
Al 2015-06-11 18:22:32
@ BD - I love your work. I have read your book and all the archive posts. I have been lurking in the background for about a year and have only recently started posting here. I do think that your view of older years is a bit gloomy. In your book you state that an Alpha 2.0 will necessarily spend some time alone (or even choose to). I am not as horny as I was when I was 20, but I am a damn sight hornier now than when I was 40. I am 61. I have 3 women with whom I have sex. They are all under 50. Any drama, they get shoved aside. I did get married once when I was 24. That lasted 4 years. No kids. We had bugger all when we met and when we parted, so it cost me nothing. But that was enough for me. So now, I am placed quite well financially. Off topic perhaps but financial strength will help men get through any of the 9 Options. This is a MUST for any man. I know you are talking about 95% of people in your blog but there are exceptions which might give readers some heart. I have a male friend who is 70. His wife is 46. They have been married 20 years. I have watched these two for all this time. They offer no drama to each other whatsoever. But then, she is Scandinavian. Also, no kids. Another male friend, 68. Been single most of his life. His main girl is 60 and as fit as you like. She is French. He also has other women that he "dates". Also no kids. Another couple I know, married, couldn't live together, couldn't lay off sex with each other either. So, they sold their big house and bought two small houses opposite each other in the same street. This was 10 years ago when they were about 50. It is still working for them. An older couple I know, he is 85, she is 82, Sure, they are married. but they are at it like rabbits. They glow in the dark with health. Please note: I would never advise pro marriage. I have no idea if I am Alpha 2.0 or not. I don't like the Alpha 1.0 who "sets people straight" so I guess I skip that and go beta now and again. But not for long. Learning to be alone and be HAPPY is also a must, because being alone can happen to anyone, anytime. Widows for example. "The Alpha 2.0 wakes up every morning of every day and is able to, within legal and realistic financial constraints, do whatever the hell he wants, whenever he wants, without having to check with anyone." And he can do this into to older age. In the examples I give above, the common thread is that the people involved don't give a shit about what society thinks. And I don't give a shit about what society and history tell me about getting older. And this is the way to avoid the problems that plague nearly everybody else.
mrhoopfan 2015-06-11 19:22:27
What makes you think that most men who have cheated get caught?
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 20:20:21
I have a male coworker who I think is an Option 2 guy. He’s still paying alimony from his first marriage, and is engaged to be married again. I suggested he look into getting a prenup this time since he expressed concern about getting divorced down the road and having to pay MORE alimony. He looked at me like I was crazy, and said, “No way! That’s SO unromantic!”
This guy is 31, a brilliant chemist, fairly attractive and very outgoing/charismatic. I couldn’t figure out why he would want to take a risk like that for the longest time. Now I get it … the guy loves drama or at least tolerates it, and has an idealized vision of marriage and his fiancee (he kept repeating that this girl was “different” because she had a higher education level and salary than his first wife, and therefore, marrying her without a prenup shouldn’t be TOO risky).
Wow. That is the EXACT definition of the serial monogamy marriage man. Loves romance, falls hard, tolerates drama, lots of Disney, somewhat controlling, loves marriage, hates prenups, but knows he'll get divorced anyway, and does, often over and over again.
Good lord. I would fucking kill myself if I was like that.
I do think that your view of older years is a bit gloomy.
Why do you say that? I don't think old age is gloomy at all...for the Alpha 2.0 anyway.
I am 61. I have 3 women with whom I have sex. They are all under 50. Any drama, they get shoved aside.
There you go. You're Alpha 2.0, so in your older age you're having a great time. That's my point.
Off topic perhaps but financial strength will help men get through any of the 9 Options. This is a MUST for any man.
Of course I agree.
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 20:27:09
What makes you think that most men who have cheated get caught?Men are biologically wired and societally conditioned to brag about sexual conquests. This is why when men cheat, they A) aren't very careful, sometimes on purpose and B) brag about it to various people. Add those two together, and men get caught cheating ALL the time. It is possible for a guy to cheat once or twice, never do it again, and and get away with it. But it's damn near impossible for a man to cheat regularly and not get caught. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've ever seen such a thing (though I'm sure some rare statistical exceptions to the rule do exist). When guys cheat, they get caught. Then one of two things always happen: 1. They get a shitload of drama from their GF/wife and just put up with it forever. 2. They get divorced. Either way, they lose (unless they like drama and some of these men do). Women are different. When women cheat, they're like ninjas. They take all kinds of insane precautions and never tell anyone, often even their best friends. I've never met a guy who cheats regularly and never got caught, but I've met many women who cheat regularly or semi-regularly and their BFs / husbands have no idea. If you're a man, and you cheat even semi-regularly, you're going to get caught. Count on it. (Unless you are one of the very rare exceptions to the rule...but as always, I would never count on being so.)
Al 2015-06-11 20:33:19
There you go. You’re Alpha 2.0, so in your older age you’re having a great time. That’s my point.The light has just dawned 💡 If forget who your target audience is. 🙂
What makes you think that most men who have cheated get caught?Because most men can't help but tell someone about it. Sometimes even their wives. It's the same with villains. They HAVE to tell someone. Who tells someone else and so on. Alcohol often fuels these admissions.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-11 22:00:19
One option you missed (though it's a mashup of a few of them) The older man who relocates to the Phills, Indonesia, Thailand, Brazil etc and uses escorts/sex workers---simply indulging in the physicality of the female body without building any type of emotio-social narratives around curved body parts and tight skin. It's looking like a good option frankly.
Al 2015-06-11 22:13:01
The older man who relocates to the Phills, Indonesia, Thailand, Brazil etc and uses escorts/sex workers—simply indulging in the physicality of the female body without building any type of emotio-social narratives around curved body parts and tight skin. It’s looking like a good option frankly.This made me chuckle 🙂 I may have to think on it more. Could be even cheaper than what I'm doing now! 😉
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 23:57:23
They HAVE to tell someone. Who tells someone else and so on. Alcohol often fuels these admissions.Correct, especially about the alcohol. And again, women are able to get completely drunk and still not tell anyone.
The older man who relocates to the Phills, Indonesia, Thailand, Brazil etc and uses escorts/sex workersI did cover that. It's option 3. To quote myself: This option means you stay in Charlie Harper mode forever, well in your old age, even as a very old man, eventually switching to paid sugar babies or hookers as your looks deteriorate.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-12 01:40:03
BD, Do you have any old posts specifically addressing loneliness? It seems like it's a significant issue for manospherians as loneliness will be much more prevalent in the coming decades for redpillers. There are all kinds of angles to discuss. --How does a 70 year old redpiller finally quit the T and A game (even if he rode out his sixties in Vietnam) and now he has to find a way to even care about the attention of a 63 year old. Can that happen? --How bad is loneliness really? Doesn't it come and go? --How can you combat loneliness? --What is it really? Has the feminine imperative/chivalry culture vastly over-inflated the horrors of loneliness? So we're all terrified of this chimera. Just flip on some talk radio and work on building some model airplanes. Who gives a shit about loneliness? --How much is loneliness simply a name given to 'bad living' 'low energy' 'low willpower'? I mean if a guy can't get himself up and running with hobbies and positive daily habits, then loneliness can flourish. There are going to be a lot of childless, obviously grandchild less, unmarried old redpillers and/or divorcees out there in the coming decades.
buzz 2015-06-12 07:21:27
I love it model planes! Don't forget electric trains and slot cars!
buzz 2015-06-12 07:22:49
Plus now you can work on reprogramming your sex robot and adding new accessories...
Aol 2015-06-12 08:02:44
Don’t forget electric trains and slot cars!Don't knock it till you've tried it! The trick here is to keep your very expensive model train layout hidden from a woman for 6 months. Then, one day you say, "Wanna see my trains?" Do this in the evening when it is dark. That way, the layout is all lit up and looks just like DISNEY LAND! That gets them. The thought process is, "Shit, I could be Queen of this lot, not just a princess." Then, if you are sure it is safe, you let them use the controls! Women love control. Then, you go back to bed and play hide the engine in the tunnel. Trust me, I've done it. It WORKS! Words of caution: (1) Don't be tempted to boast that one particular locomotive is precision engineered brass built and cost $2,000.00 - they will wonder why you didn't buy them that purse they wanted last week. (2) Don't let them near it for too long or they want to change the scenery about or "Wouldn't it be better if you put a pretty little boat on the lake" etc. 😀
Marsupial 2015-06-12 08:22:15
5a - MGTOW + hookers Prostitution is legal where I live. When I want sex - which is less and less as I age - I pay for it. No house (renting), cheap car, no debt, money in the bank and whatever toys I want.
buzz 2015-06-12 09:14:52
@AOL Oh ya the girl friend bought street cars for my layout 🙂 I had to remove the strip club and put it in a box... Let her at the controls? You are a very brave man! Her cats loved it though they walked right down main street and sniffed all the little people, have you ever seen a cat with a very confused expression on it's face? Then I was talking to one woman and I let it slip that owning electric trains was automatic birth control and she smiled and said my boy would love it! I have gotten a few women to launch control line airplanes, that seems to go well for a while...
A.B Prosper 2015-06-12 11:51:57
Way more men than you think are comfortable with long term celibacyor at least can become comfortable with it. These days "self service" and "porn" take care of the physical urges and an occasional escort, pick up date, prostitute or whatever is safe, legal and available in your area fills that gaps Heck in Japan half the unmarried female population is celibate and nearly 2/3's of the men are. Besides you age, over 30's or so the urge declines anyway since sex as with everything is use it or lose it. If men are sexually active, the urge will remain higher than otherwise of course but stay celibate a while and it will no longer bother you very much. This isn't healthy long term for society but its harmless for most men.
POB 2015-06-12 13:23:27
Just for the record, you can be a sugar daddy virtually anywhere. The point is there are some places where these kind of arrangements are easier to pull. About hookers, I would personally feel very depressed if I ever needed to pay for sex (did it when I was younger and absolutely hated it). Only exception I can think of is if you absolutely need to bang hot VYW for the rest of your life and have zero concerns about your own feelings. But as BD cleverly pointed out these guys are probably experiencing some form of loneliness if they're doing it for a long time. I still have a long way to go, but I guess that if I'm still "single" when I turn 60 I would have no problem to lay early 40s women (of course it would take me more time than now, but it's very doable). I even know a small handfull of older men (70s-80s) who are married but could easily pull good-looking women 25 years their junior to be their FBs (maybe some of them are doing it right now, who knows). Guess it's just good to be an Alpha 2.0!
soldier 2015-06-12 14:04:41
This post is quite depressing, imo. The other manosphere blogs would've taken the hard reality and washed it over with some redeeming fantasy. But you don't really do that here. You paint a bleak future, especially in the final paragraph (I would argue that things were never gravy, even in the past, but that's a conversation for another time) Which leads me to this: How can a man logically decide to have kids, knowing that this is what they have waiting for them on the horizon? There is, as you say, nothing else - there are no other options. So, to me, knowing this, it seems completely crazy to have kids. I mean let's be honest, the people who do have kids don't know this stuff, at least I don't think. They're filled with varying delusions.
Duke 2015-06-12 15:19:11
@KryptoKate. Wow, I had no idea that some one else shared the same co-parenting idea that I've had for some time now. Sadly this idea will never be widely used due to social programming. Somehow Ive always known that males and females aren't meant to be roommates. When I was younger, about eighteen, I got this girl pregnant (technically she locked her logs around me so I couln't pull out). She gave me an ultimatum, either marry her or she would get an abortion. I didn't want her to get an abortion, but also didn't want to marry her, so she ended up getting an abortion after her feable attempt to trap me failed. Looking back at it now, if I knew what I know now at 36 I would have at least agreed to move in with her until she had the baby, then design a vistitaion/timesharing schedule after telling her I was moving out. I actually got my second chance, when I got this girl preganant when I was twenty seven. This time I moved in with her briefly, then moved out after the baby was born. Almost nine years later I get to visit with may daughter two days a week while the mother gets to most of the menial work of raising her, while I pay minimal child suppost since I'm self-employed. She gave me a hard time at first because I didn't have a "real" job so that I could garnished like fuck, but finally came to her senses and realized that it was wasted energy on her part. I'm fully prepared for the future, and will probably execute the same plan if I impregnate another woman. I really like BD's OLTR, so I will probably end up buying one of his e-books on the subject. But to be honest the only way I could live with a woman is part time. I just simply need a lot of alone time and would want too actually date other women, not have discreet FB. My ultimate goal is to live in another city during the week, while dating other girls, and say that I am away on business and then come home to married life on the weekends. It sucks to have to decieve someone like that by having a double life, but it's also nice to have your cake and eat it too I guess.
Kryptokate 2015-06-12 16:35:25
@ Duke I totally understand your perspective. I don't think I could live full-time with someone ever again, now that I'm used to living alone. Even though I did it all through my 20s. It wasn't that great and I don't miss anything about it except maybe having someone to take in the mail when I'm out of town. But I like a lot of alone time. Someone sleeps over at my house one or two days almost every week (not always lovers, my friends sleep over a lot too), and that's about perfect for me. Even so, I usually am ready for them to GO HOME in the morning once I've gotten up. 😉 I think living separately from your sex/romantic partners is just part of the natural evolution of an increasingly wealthy society with higher living standards. People used to sleep all piled together in huts. 100 years ago, masses of people lived together in tenements and had to share a bathroom down the hall and sleep on the floor in the kitchen. Fifty years ago, people lived with parents and several kids in a small house with only one bathroom, and all the kids shared rooms. Nowadays we all want our own bathrooms and bedrooms and closets. The more space and privacy we can get, the more we want it. I think most people who could afford to live separately from their lover would prefer that (even if they don't think they would), and the only reason more people don't do it is because they can't afford to maintain two households. Once you get a taste of total freedom and privacy, it's pretty hard to imagine giving it up voluntarily.
lazy guy 2015-06-12 17:10:49
I agree with many of Kryptokate's points. I've seen so many adults give so little value to maintaining an old proven great friendship. When it's no longer effortlessly convenient (like regularly crossing paths with a friend on a college campus) they let it die of neglect. Many men in this culture seem to lack the 'take some initiative' gene (making contact, not just 'being happy to talk when you call them'). They don't seem to distinguish between the value of A. an old friendship which runs deep and B. merely pleasant chatter with whomever happens to be in front of them. I suspect egotism is a factor... My male friends who are married with kids let the family presume to own all of his time outside of work. The man's kids always get to grab his attention instantly whenever they want it. So he is not allowed to talk to you more than a few minutes at a time. Parenthood was not like that when I was a child, and it was no problem for us kids then. These same male friends whine to me that they can't find any time to exercise... boo hoo ... (they look like shit, then complain to me that their wives are reluctant to fuck them. Hmm... ). I'd say BD's whole post has a current running under it which is this: to consider where you stand on the continuum between extremes of conformity and non-conformity. Apparently the majority (conformists) presume that everyone is much like they are. They also tend to be more ageist (presuming to know all about you just by your age) than a non-conformist is. Conformists are probably more prone to need constant companionship in some form (even if only having a TV or radio blabbing human voices); avoiding true solitude & introspection. So I guess the majority (of our population) reinforces a widespread presumptive fear of loneliness (along with other presumptions that don't actually apply to everyone, such as, what you must expect & accept as you age). @ Al, your comments and anecdotes are very interesting & entertaining, so I hope you will continue posting here.
Blackdragon 2015-06-12 17:31:44
Do you have any old posts specifically addressing loneliness?No. It's not an emotion I ever feel, so I've never really addressed it here.
How does a 70 year old redpiller finally quit the T and A game (even if he rode out his sixties in Vietnam) and now he has to find a way to even care about the attention of a 63 year old. Can that happen?Don't understand the question.
How bad is loneliness really? Doesn’t it come and go?Yep, it comes and goes. But as I explain in detail in my Alpha Male 2.0 book, you don't want unhappiness to come and go. You want it to go and never come back. Like I said, I'm never lonely.
How can you combat loneliness?It's easier for more independent and/or introverted personalities. But the general answer is A) have a Mission that really excites you, B) live a fun life with or without other humans, C) get laid a lot, D) have at least one woman in your life who you really like (meaning at least a high-end MLTR).
Has the feminine imperative/chivalry culture vastly over-inflated the horrors of loneliness?No, but that has caused more men to be alone, and thus suffer loneliness more than our 1950s counterparts who were all married by age 21 with a 7% divorce rate.
How much is loneliness simply a name given to ‘bad living’ ‘low energy’ ‘low willpower’? I mean if a guy can’t get himself up and running with hobbies and positive daily habits, then loneliness can flourish.Absolutely right! That's why just having a strong Mission (as just one example) drops loneliness way down.
There are going to be a lot of childless, obviously grandchild less, unmarried old redpillers and/or divorcees out there in the coming decades.Yep, there will. However, they won't be childless. The vast, vast majority of redpillers will have some kids by the time they hit age 50, even if they swear they "never will."
5a – MGTOW + hookersAgain, that's option 3. I probably should have called option 3 "Forever Casual Sex" instead of Forever Player. You don't have to be a PUA or player to be in option 3. You can just fuck hookers the rest of your life. That's still option 3. I won't ever be choosing that life option but I know many men are cool with it.
Way more men than you think are comfortable with long term celibacy or at least can become comfortable with it.I don't think so. A celibate man is not a happy man (with rare exception).
These days “self service” and “porn” take care of the physical urges and an occasional escort, pick up date, prostitute or whatever is safe, legal and available in your area fills that gapsThat's not celibacy. You just proved my point.
About hookers, I would personally feel very depressed if I ever needed to pay for sex (did it when I was younger and absolutely hated it).Agree. The entire concept really bothers me. But as you can see in the comments, lots of men have no problem with it. Men like you and me may be the exception on this one.
The other manosphere blogs would’ve taken the hard reality and washed it over with some redeeming fantasy.Correct. Most other manosphere blogs follow the narrative of, "Isn't his horrible with all these damn sluts? Wow, this really sucks! But hey, don't worry, someday you'll find a perfect forever-loyal virgin who you can marry and stay marred to forever and it will all be great!"
How can a man logically decide to have kids, knowing that this is what they have waiting for them on the horizon? There is, as you say, nothing else – there are no other options.He has kids knowing that he will not be forever pair-bonded to their mother, and he emotionally accepts this well in advance. Then he makes legal, logistical, and sexual accommodations for this well in advance of having any children.
to me, knowing this, it seems completely crazy to have kids.It's completely crazy to have kids while thinking this is still the 1950s and and you'll still be together with the mother in 40 years as long as you "screen" or something. That's crazy. It's not crazy to make the accommodations in advance I discussed above, and have in detail all over this blog and in my books. And yeah, if making those accommodations is too much work for you, then just get a vasectomy (or go on TRT) and don't have kids.
I mean let’s be honest, the people who do have kids don’t know this stuff, at least I don’t think. They’re filled with varying delusions....yep...as I've been saying for years and years and years and years...
Al 2015-06-12 17:38:35
(The post above by Aol re model railways is actually me. Typing trouble!) 🙂 If you live with a woman, your hobbies and toys are taking your attention from her and they are potential drama points. If you are single, she wants to play with your toys. There must be a lesson in there somewhere. "The only thing worse than waking up with no one beside you is waking up with someone beside you." "Guests, like fish, go off after 3 days." Beware the guest that turns into a polterguest.
Al 2015-06-12 18:28:15
@ lazy guy
@ Al, your comments and anecdotes are very interesting & entertaining, so I hope you will continue posting here.Very kind. Ta. I got a serious dose of oneitis at age 50. I damn near fell in the trap. But She Was Just Like All The Rest™. This made me stop and think. I left my long term job (but with a nice pension, albeit reduced) relocated and downsized. Situation: NO DEBT! Sufficient income to pay the bills. Then I became self employed (no employees). I work 10-15 hours a week and have some investment income. I'm not rich but I can do what I want to do. The point it is, it is NEVER too late to change things around. I know that I may face loneliness in the next 10 - 15 years. So, I CHOOSE to spend a lot of time alone NOW. Alone, but never lonely. One can be lonely in a crowded room. Society at large and government in particular has NO interest in seeing that you have a long and happy older age. Government wants you living in the prison for most of you life and when you get older, it doesn't even want you having access to the exercise yard. God forbid you are an independent thinker aged 70. Just conform, curl over and start using a walking stick. I would say that being alone is a choice, being lonely is a state of mind.
A.B Prosper 2015-06-13 00:31:37
I agree that using prostitutes and escorts certainly isn't celibacy but such conduct is less common than people think at least in the States. As I understand it was more common in the past but STD's and changes in the culture and attitudes to it, mainly negative seems to have reduced it. Its helps people who simply can't get by any other way. I've never seen the need though. In Japan deep lifetime celibacy is far more common than you might think, enough that prostitutes there have had to reduce prices and the population is plummeting . This seems to be the case in the US where legal, Nevada for example though the reasons may be different. That said self service however does qualify as celibacy and for many men in the upcoming years, even married ones it is all they are going to get anyway. Its not harmful either for single men anyway depending on the needs and personality of the person of course. I think its actually the best choice for many of those men since its gives them the highest measure of safety from the depredations of women. Deep MGTOW isn't a talisman of invincibility but its a fine tool in the box. You have an unusually high libido for these days and happily for you, are able to satisfy it and happily for others are willing to help others learn also. A lot of younger men however lower T levels than in the past and social stunting have lowered the sex drive for many of them as well . I'm not sure this should be lamented or even changed unless it impacts health or happiness and it doesn't seem to for many. This might even be a blessing since they won't suffer nearly as much. It might be a curse too though, our forebears might have revolted by now and forced change. Way I figure it feminist women wanted a new measure of masculinity, so be it. Give it to them hard. Heck I tend to caution men to avoid dangerous masculine jobs entirely. Let the feminists do them. They mostly don't pay that well anyway and odds are your employers regards you as disposable. Besides if you aren't spending money on a family ,to impress women or on the rare pricey hobby, why work hard to earn more? It will just get taxed away for some illegal alien anyway. Live small, save a bit, use what you have and take advantage of the fact that entertainment is cheaper than its been in ages. Be happy and frugal. This kind of aggressive MGTOW has the salutary midterm effect of making women more feminine since the free resources aren't available and the entire edifice that supports the idiot policies losses resources to distribute. Its why 3rd world women tend to be nicer and more feminine, they have to be for their own safety. And yeah its sounds destructive but the US is just a 3rd world country with a residual good economy anyway. By the time younger readers here hit their 40's, the US will be fully undeveloped anyway, As Aaron "Captain Capitalist" Cleary oft says Enjoy the Decline
Blackdragon 2015-06-13 10:54:56
In Japan deep lifetime celibacy is far more common than you might think,Way ahead of you. I've already quoted those Japan stats several times on here. Doesn't change my point. You're saying more men do it. I'm saying these men aren't happy. If you did a detailed psychological analysis of those sexless Japanese herbivore men, I'm quite convinced you would not find a strong level of consistent happiness among those guys. I'm not saying they're miserable; I am saying they're not super happy. Men like sex. Some can deny it all they want, but it's still fact. Spending the rest of your life jerking off to porn will not make you happy (unless you are a very rare and bizarre exception to the rule).
This kind of aggressive MGTOW has the salutary midterm effect of making women more feminine since the free resources aren’t available and the entire edifice that supports the idiot policies losses resources to distribute.That's only true if a huge percentage of men go celibate MGTOW. This isn't going to happen, and I've got a blog post coming up explaining why. For every one celibate MGTOW there are at least 20 beta males who are eager to pay a woman's bills. Going full-bore MGTOW isn't going to effect societal change to any noticeable degree. Your better advice is this:
Enjoy the DeclineCorrect, as I've been saying for years. Enjoy the decline...but HAVE SEX WHILE YOU'RE DOING IT.
soldier 2015-06-13 15:50:32
"It’s completely crazy to have kids while thinking this is still the 1950s and and you’ll still be together with the mother in 40 years as long as you “screen” or something." Thanks for the reply. Sorry for the confusion though: I was talking about the new offspring's experience, i.e. you're throwing a kid onto a planet that is offering, at best, something that is "least bad." And this is best-case scenario. Plenty of kids, myself included, don't follow their parents' advice/paths (for example, my parents are brainwashed religious hopefuls) and so the kid might end up really screwed if he happens to be a delusional and chooses the worst of the above choices you outlined. This is what I meant when I said "how can a man logically decide to have kids?" To me, it makes more sense for the delusional to procreate, because people who "get it" realize there aren't rainbows waiting for their 'little bundle of joy.' Thoughts??
Blackdragon 2015-06-13 19:45:34
this is best-case scenarioNo it's not. Option A: Get legally married, 100% monogamous, expect it to last forever (or at least really hope for it) even though it has an 87% failure rate, and likely get a lifetime-damaging divorce that ranges from resentful to explosive. Likely say goodbye to your retirement too. Option B: Pair-bond and co-habit, don't get married, don't combine finances, don't get monogamous (but be very discreet about fucking side-women), and likely break up a few years down the road. Option B is less bad for raising kids than Option A. Less resentment and anger is seen by the kids when the breakup occurs. Far less financial damage to the man too. I'll say it again: Men today acting like it's the 1950s are insane.
This is what I meant when I said “how can a man logically decide to have kids?” To me, it makes more sense for the delusional to procreate, because people who “get it” realize there aren’t rainbows waiting for their ‘little bundle of joy.’ Thoughts??The delusional are procreating, and it's destroying society (not that I care). The amount of babies born to single, low-income mothers has skyrocketed and it's hurting everyone. You do NOT want the delusional procreating. If you really gave a shit about society (and I don't), then you would either take the authoritarian option and heavily restrict childbearing to only the intelligent, mature, organized, or wealthy, or take the libertarian option and don't allow young single mothers (or married couples who can't afford kids but have them anyway) to get ANY money or ANY assistance from government EVER, thereby motivating other young / stupid people to not get pregnant when they see the pain it causes their friends when they do it. When I went to high school in the 1980s, tons of teenagers were having sex, but almost none of them got pregnant. It can be done. Again though, not that I care. 🙂
buzz 2015-06-13 20:14:11
Another thing that would slow our decent would be free on demand birth control and abortion for anyone that wants them no questions asked and no reporting at all. Yes paid in full by the tax payers. You can argue all you want but it is the cheapest thing the tax payers can do. It is over population that will eventually destroy us if nothing else does first.
Al 2015-06-13 20:36:48
Questions that I STILL get asked: 🙁 Are you married? Why not? Do you have children? Don't you like children then? Who is going to look after you when you get old if you don't have children? ** There are still people procreating on the basis that the offspring will look after them in old age. Children owe their parents nothing other than courtesy and respect (which cost nothing) while they live under their parents' roof. Producing kids as an insurance policy is madness. @Buzz: Yep, you are correct. Also, men should be able to get a vasectomy as young as they like.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-13 21:18:06
"How does a 70 year old redpiller finally quit the T and A game (even if he rode out his sixties in Vietnam) and now he has to find a way to even care about the attention of a 63 year old. Can that happen?" All I mean here is; how does a guy who played with 20-something bodies for forty years straight all of a sudden want to pair bond with a woman who is sixty plus or even fifty plus (and not a freak of nature/surgery). It seems impossible unless it's just a platonic LJBFs taken to the cruise ship circuit. It's not an important question, lol. Just a thought. It seems like it couldn't be done. Also, I can see why guys would be disturbed or just like, "Whooaaa" when it comes to P4P. I fell into the dark side while in Asia though where it's just a job done by young women who want cash. If you do it in the wrong places it could be evil but if you're in an Asian mega-city then the girls who would be carousel riders in the West, simply want some gifts/rent etc. It's a very gray area in a Chinese city. Sometimes the money aspect is just never fully acknowledged. So there's different ways of going about it. It's not all streetwalking hideousness. I'm so over the guilt thing. It's a viable option for me, maybe not all. But in Asia, the atmosphere has NOTHING to do with the tatted, methy, 'Daddy molested me' vibe you'd likely get from P4P in the US. Although, I've never tried it there. When you're with a fun, young Chinese girl who loves to be naked and just needs some 'help with the rent' then it's just cool. Satan is not lurking in the corner of the room at all. If there is a difference between 'escorting' and 'prostitution' (I'm sure many would say there's not) then I am saying that using 'escorts' really meets my needs.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-13 21:20:01
"I’ll say it again: Men today acting like it’s the 1950s are insane." Golden Nutshell Award.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-13 21:37:30
I think a lot of people who decide to have kids automatically assume the best case scenario; great kid, several grandkids standing around during the death rattle etc. Okay that's human nature to imagine the ideal but if you're older you're going to be more realistic. But for me the best case scenario for marriage and fatherhood isn't that great. I'm white so I have financial responsibility to consider. I wouldn't have a kid unless I was making well over 100k a year which I don't. But back to the original idea. Let's look at the best case scenario; 20 years of financial worry. Every dollar that passes through your hand just kind of hurts if you have a kid. Working and spending money should be a joy and not a nagging pain which it will be unless you're cruising along in the top 3 percentile. Bad sleep Unbelievable levels of worry Sex is gone from what I've heard. Your life is simply gone. You live for your kid now. This is what happens in the best case scenario. Now imagine some of the things you won't see posted by parents on facebook concering possible childhood ailments; -Tantrums -Bullied (which would break your heart) -Learning disabilities -Retarded (more likely with 'Have it all' women and their late births and cagey red pillers waiting to have a kid as well) -Serious physical handicap -Chronic health issues draining you of tens of thousands over the years. -Gay -Just a complete asshole who you just don't like -Teenage delinquency -Major financial hell like a teenage pregnancy -Obviously divorce is a layup here, then your kid who you loved is kidnapped from you and then you grow apart from your own kid breaking your heart -Your kid just doesn't like YOU. -And maybe the worst of all. You have a really good, smart, decent kid who is ready for a great world, naturally treats people well and has all kinds of dreams of how great people and life will be. And you just have to watch as their heart is broken by this society that is degenerating by the hour. etc. So what if you give over your whole life, risk marriage and your kid is one of the above? No one ever considers that. Mostly it's all rosy, like the 'bundle of joy' quote above. What if it's just hell? I think I'm going to leave it alone.
Al 2015-06-13 22:05:22
@ Signor Farfalla.
I think a lot of people who decide to have kids automatically assume the best case scenario; great kid, several grand-kids standing around during the death rattle etc.........................What if it’s just hell? I think I’m going to leave it alone.As one who did leave it alone, I can recommend it. Your long list of potential problems is well thought out. What I do find hard to fathom is that many people, still, today will label you as selfish. Oh well.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-14 06:29:35
Yeah the 'selfish' accusation always amazes me because it's technically impossible to be selfish in regards to non-existent entities. Selfish is actually making another human being and THEN deciding that you want your own life back. Start with those people if you want to call someone 'selfish', you know? There's only, oh, 5 billion of them around. Picture yourself sitting in the woods alone with a sandwich and then someone comes along the trail and says 'Hey stop hogging your sandwich, man. Share it with that theoretical, imagined entity in the air beside you.' That's as non-sensical as people calling a guy 'selfish' who chooses not to have children. The children don't exist. If a couple has two kids then they will often think a childless man is selfish (because they're trapped and miserable and the man is running on fumes when it comes to T, but that's another issue). But you can call them 'selfish' for not having their third child. It's the same situation. Their selfishness is condemning that non-existent third child to forever not exist. So their financial concerns, exhaustion or whatever is negating that third existence just the same as a single man who decides to just get through life with solvency. It's almost MORE selfish for the couple with two healthy decent children to forego the third. They already know the odds of a healthy child are quite good.
buzz 2015-06-14 07:26:12
It is amazing to me how far social programing for marriage goes. I have never been married and never had kids. I do not have either the money, energy or desire to do this. But I do like sex and tend to follow the path of least resistance. For some reason there seem to be more married women than single women available to me. When I was younger I would try to avoid them due to moral issues but I am not married and if they are advertising online why not? So I meet this married woman online, I do always ask what their husbands do (no police, military, hunters, gun collectors). So we get together and while she is naked just before we are going to do it she asks "how come you never got married and had kids? I have been married 20 years and have 4 kids"... She is cheating on her husband with me and she still asks this!!?? WTF? I really had to think for a while before I came up with "I like married women, I just don't want to be married to them" she laughed and we did it....
Stephen 2015-06-14 08:02:30
Of course, if one is psychologically unusual and has NO pair bonding instincts and is in relationships with women only for the sex, then Option 3 seems ideal.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-14 20:48:25
Stephen, Some hints of insult there, yeah? If not, then disregard. But it's always curious when someone gets a flash of irritation or anger over the totally separate life choices of others that have absolutely no effect on them. It's a dead giveaway every time actually. It's ALWAYS someone just trying to bulwark themselves against the looming behemoth of regret. Btw, how are things with the wife these days?
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-14 20:52:23
@Buzz, I've seen it too, though not in those circumstances. I've seen guys in the middle of having their lives absolutely destroyed in every way by divorce who will still be, like, "What's up with this unmarried guy? What is he? A fag or something? Something's wrong with him." Their inability to connect the dots, even as marriage/divorce wrecks their life, is hilarious. They still can't see things outside of the prism of the ultimate command of "Thou shall marry or be considered a fag/loser" So work for the 200 pounder boys. Get back to work! There's a mouth to feed.
Dawson Stone 2015-06-14 22:52:51
Some really great points in the comments. Loneliness. Al really nails it. Huge difference between feeling lonely and alone. I am frequently alone but never lonely. I was never lonelier than when I was married. I had to laugh when I read comments on people calling men that don't have children selfish. There is literally no single act I can think of that is more selfish than having a child. "My kid is an honor student." "My kid is all state in football." As a father one of the hardest things to do as a good parent is to not make it about yourself and what you want for your kid but to help them figure out what they want and help them pursue it. Signor Farfalla nailed the list of things that can go wrong when having a child. I got super lucky and have a wonderful kid but it was just dumb luck. If I was thinking it through (as I should have but didn't) I wouldn't of had a child. And IMO if you don't make (or plan to make) over $100K a year you shouldn't even consider having kids. And that's just for ONE kid. I can't remember who made the point but it is true if you have a child and cannot provide well for them every dollar you spend will be painful...and to BDs points it is ultimately about being happy right? Not being able to afford to send your kid to go to the camp his friends are going to or the Ivy League school they get accepted into are the kinds of pains I would hate to experience. Which ties into the selfishness of having a child...if you can't fucking afford to have a kid don't have one (or two, three, four, etc.). The apex of selfishness.
“I like married women, I just don’t want to be married to them”LOVE that line. But agree...no gun owners if possible. @Al
Who is going to look after you when you get old if you don’t have children?This one always totally and completely baffles me and I couldn't agree with you more. As a father I would kill myself before I let my daughter care for me in my old age. Again, what on Earth could be more selfish than having children (even in part) because you want someone to "owe" you and take care of you when you are to old to take care of yourself. @BD When KrptoKate asked you "Why is it that people should get “lonely” when they’re older if they’re single? If they’re not lonely when they’re younger, why be lonely later?" you responded with:
1. You can’t attract quality sexual partners the way you used to.While this will become more challenging what does this have to do with being lonely? One can be lonely with quality sexual partners and not lonely without them.
2. You can’t or won’t want to spend the time and effort to date and get laid.Again, are we talking about being horny or lonely?
3. Most of your friends will be married (massive peer pressure conducive to loneliness).With over 65% divorce rates for first time marriages and even higher divorce rates for 2nd+ marriages it would seem peer pressure would be reducing and not increasing.
4. You (usually) will have less friends and engage in less social actives.My dad is in his mid 70s and has way more friends than when he was married (well in his first marriage to my mom anyway) in his 30s and 40s. If you consider old to be over 85 then perhaps you have a point because all of your friends are dying off but let's be honest, if you live to be over 85 the end of your life is gonna suck on nearly every level no matter what you do. Having someone you care about (if by some miracle you were happily married to someone) be beholden to you to care for you in your old age would make a horrible situation even worse, not better IMO.
5. You will have poorer health and less physical energy, thus creating a feeling of dependence you didn’t have when you were young and vibrant.Once you get really old (over 85) or if you are younger but are in awful health (cancer, alzheimers, severe diabetes, etc.) not much else matters. Having people that you care deeply for watch you suffer and die hardly seems like a comforting experience for anyone involved. I say go out like this guy did. In the same way if you can't afford to have a kid you shouldn't have one, if you can't take care of yourself it's time to check out.
Al 2015-06-14 23:02:05
On "how to go out." I want to die peacefully, in my sleep, just like my grandfather. Not screaming, like the passengers in his car. 😀
Blackdragon 2015-06-15 12:55:28
While this will become more challenging what does this have to do with being lonely? One can be lonely with quality sexual partners and not lonely without them. Because if you want a long-term emotional partner, because you're lonely (not horny), that person will be harder to attract if you're really old.
With over 65% divorce rates for first time marriages and even higher divorce rates for 2nd+ marriages it would seem peer pressure would be reducing and not increasing.True, though as I showed here, the VAST majority of men are married by age 40. If they get divorced, they get married again. The single, lonely, old guy is going to see a hell of a lot of people in his age range married or getting married, even if there are divorces in there, which of course there will be.
Having someone you care about (if by some miracle you were happily married to someone) be beholden to you to care for you in your old age would make a horrible situation even worse, not better IMO.Agree. I certainly won't be lonely in my old age. I'm actually going to be more happy in 5 years, not less. 🙂
On “how to go out.”
I want to die peacefully, in my sleep, just like my grandfather. Not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
“In my own bed, at the age of 80 with a bellyful of wine and a girl’s mouth around my cock.”
Dawson Stone 2015-06-15 13:32:15
Because if you want a long-term emotional partner, because you’re lonely (not horny), that person will be harder to attract if you’re really old.For women I agree it gets harder as they get older. For men, it's quite the opposite. The supply and demand curve is amazing for a man when you are much older. When you are older finding a long-term emotional partner is super easy if you are 60, 70, 80+. At 60 there are 10% more women than men. 20% by 70 and over 40% more women by 80. It would be nirvana for men if only they weren't old women. Just sayin...
If they get divorced, they get married again. The single, lonely, old guy is going to see a hell of a lot of people in his age range married or getting married, even if there are divorces in there, which of course there will be.The current estimate is actually that about 38% of men will get remarried. The estimate is that 1 in 4 men will never marry and about 1/2 of the men that do marry will get divorced and remarry.
POB 2015-06-15 13:50:02
“In my own bed, at the age of 80 with a bellyful of wine and a girl’s mouth around my cock.”Best quote EVER by any TV show, LOL. Love the little guy. I simply do not get why people assume you will automatically be lonely if you're not married at a certain age. You're 30 and still single? Alone. You're 40 and still single? Alone. You're 50 and single? OMG, you'll die like a miserable and alone bastard, get married ASAP! It's a real paradox that only true red pillers got things right. Love is really special and hard to find, so why on earth should we rush things because of age? Plus I can love someone AND have the freedom to have sex with someone else, one thing does not exclude the other. We should always be free to choose, that's what love and companionship are about. People should realize that if you care about someone, you just want to see that person happy (without damaging your own happiness of course).
Blackdragon 2015-06-15 13:58:10
For women I agree it gets harder as they get older. For men, it’s quite the opposite.If by "older" you mean 40s or perhaps 50s, you're absolutely right. But if you mean 70s and 80s, you're wrong, at least in terms of scooping up a hot young long-term partner. I don't see a lot of dudes in their 70s and 80s living great lives and fucking hot young chicks and/or having a super hot girlfriend (barring the ultra-rare exception to the rule like Hugh Hefner).
When you are older finding a long-term emotional partner is super easy if you are 60, 70, 80+. At 60 there are 10% more women than men. 20% by 70 and over 40% more women by 80.You answered your own point right here:
It would be nirvana for men if only they weren’t old women.Bingo. Old men have access to gross old women, yep. Not high-quality, sexually attractive long-term partners. A lonely old man is not pining away from some 82 year-old female bag of bones to marry or date. Thus my point.
I simply do not get why people assume you will automatically be lonely if you’re not married at a certain age.Societal Programming and weak personalities.
Plus I can love someone AND have the freedom to have sex with someone else, one thing does not exclude the other.Bingo. The world would be a happier place of more people understood that. Including men.
A.B Prosper 2015-06-15 14:28:25
My guess is that the social programming for marriage is tied to ideas of adulthood. We have consistently considered marriage and children among the chief markers of adulthood and its hard to break away from the idea that if you aren't married or at least a player , you aren't grown up. In fairness we really don't have many other ways to do this and back in the day when society supported men's marriages it made good sense sense a social befit . Now? Well I don't have to say a think do I? No re: marriage, numbers are lower than ever before in history and later than anyone in a very long time Given how new the idea that men should never marry is (broadly maybe a decade or so old) is, its an encouraging sign and in time I suspect that the Beta's may just dry up enough that MGTOW can have a measurable impact. I might be wrong and in the meantime our host is of course quite correct. The funny thing is minus children of course, most of women's resource constraints are self induced. Yes I'd concede cost of living for a woman is maybe about 5% higher than a man with a similar social status (makeup, feminine supplies , clothes variations) but women insist on more status displays than a man and if they are frugal , they wouldn't need male resources. However women, some old fashioned ones aside are not frugal. Its why the insane Keynesian system wants them working Not only are they easier to control they'll spend far more than a man and his resources if they can get them. I have to agree with our host re: men wanting sex, certainly and living in a sex drenched culture encourages the desire.. Men also might be happier getting some on a regular basis but I don't tend to encourage or assume people should be happy. General contentment and a stoic outlook is better anyway. Happiness is fleeting but stoic contentment can be consistent. Of course that is not a very popular idea in these days of assumed growth and "progress" as ideology but again it never was. I can't imagine an entire society of stoics and celibates and as such the advice here is invaluable for meeting a very basic human need.
Al 2015-06-15 15:52:08
I can remember when I was about 20, lying back on the bed while a young lady was proving her prowess with her mouth, "I wonder if I'll still get blow jobs when I'm 60." I'm pleased to report that I do. 😀 I can also remember thinking at 20 that 45 year old women looked pretty gross to me. Now they look pretty damn good! And when I'm 75, a 60 year old might look pretty appealing too! 🙂 I'll report back on that when the time comes!
Stephen 2015-06-15 17:41:26
Signor Farfalla, I was not trying to be insulting at all. I agree with you that tradcons, women, and feminists should not try to force or shame people to behave in ways that are foreign to their nature. After I read Blackdragon's piece on marriage reform where he said some form of pair bonding marriage relationship will continue after the current system is gone, I've been thinking. I think our host is right that 90% of men have some sort of pair bonding instincts but I suspect that a minority (maybe 10%) do not. I think some man only want sex from women and are more or less quite happy alone. So Option 3 is rather good if you really don't enjoy relationships.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-15 18:16:23
Stephen, I was 50/50 on what you were saying anyway. Good points then and I agree. There was some chance to misread your post as a slight but that's not how it was. You add some good angles to the topic there. I shouldn't have jumped the gun but I'm getting too used to internet pissing matches, I think. AB Prosper, Your thoughts on stoicism were interesting. I think the sex drive runs on a deeper strata than what makes a guy happy. That's what makes me wonder if the pure, celibate strain of MGTOW could ever work. For guys that want it to work--Good luck to you. But I don't see how a guy could ever get around those stone age reactions to female curves. I remember in my glorious beta/incel days how that deep summertime cleavage could disintegrate my whole mindset for a day or more. It seems like a celibate MGTOW would get walloped sooner or later by those desires that run so much deeper than a surface-level social decision. Dawson Stone, What an amazingly honest thing to say; that you wouldn't have had a kid if you'd thought it out. I'm glad you have a nice kid, btw. It's quite an amazing eye opener though to hear a guy say that, even with a great kid, there's still some ambivalence.
Dawson Stone 2015-06-16 00:16:25
@Signor Farfalla Well I don't know if I would quite call it ambivalence because like I said I have a fantastic kid but given your list if I could go back in time and I was being totally rational and did the math the odds wouldn't look great and I really do think life is about happiness maximization and having a kid(s) with issues would SUCK. I have heard people say what a "gift" it is when they have a kids with CP or Downs but I just think that is what people tell themselves to keep from wanting to throw themselves off a cliff. @BD I know you get pissed when I get hung up on an issue but you seem to be arguing in a circle so I will respond here and then let it go. KryptoKate raised what I thought was an excellent point about why would getting older and being single (versus married or in a relationship) have to entail an increase in loneliness. You responded that it would be harder when you are older to attract a long-term emotional partner. This isn't the case as I pointed out. You then went on to say:
If by “older” you mean 40s or perhaps 50s, you’re absolutely right. But if you mean 70s and 80s, you’re wrong, at least in terms of scooping up a hot young long-term partner. I don’t see a lot of dudes in their 70s and 80s living great lives and fucking hot young chicks and/or having a super hot girlfriendI totally agree but remember we are comparing what it will be like for a single guy in terms of loneliness versus a guy that is married or in a long-term relationship. The married or long-term relationship guy also isn't with a hot, young, long-term partner. And at least the single guy doesn't have the relationship exit costs the married/committed guy does so he is much less likely to stay in a relationship that isn't satisfying. I would argue the single guy, on average, would be less lonely. If you are equating loneliness to not being able to attract hot young sexual partners when you are old that is true regardless of if you are single or not. When you look like the crypt keeper banging the super hot 20 year olds isn't happening unless you are paying for it. If you are equating loneliness to not being able to find long-term emotional partner than I simply disagree...finding quality women within 10 years of your age gets easier every year over 50. Yea you probably can't find the 22 year old super model to ride off into the sunset with you but neither can the married guy.
POB 2015-06-16 09:41:34
I can also remember thinking at 20 that 45 year old women looked pretty gross to me. Now they look pretty damn good! And when I’m 75, a 60 year old might look pretty appealing too!I think we all change over time. My guess is Alphas know VYW won't ever stop being sexually appealing to them, even after they reach a certain age...we'll probably be (young) pussy hunters forever! But this is something I've been thinking for quite a while: as I get older I can really appreciate what is written between the lines. As long as a woman has a fair good-looking figure, she'll be more than welcome to join me in the fun. I do not mind going after woman 15 years older or 15 years younger than me. I just like women. Period. But again, there's a limit and I think (to me) 55 should be it (regardless of my age). As a side note my late grandfather was well into his 70s, almost broke and still managed to have 3 GFs (all in their 50s).
Blackdragon 2015-06-16 13:43:06
The married or long-term relationship guy also isn’t with a hot, young, long-term partner. And at least the single guy doesn’t have the relationship exit costs the married/committed guy does so he is much less likely to stay in a relationship that isn’t satisfying. I would argue the single guy, on average, would be less lonely.I agree. Certainly the single, old, ugly, 70+ guy will be more free and happy than the married old, ugly, 70+ guy, although a more accurate description would be "less miserable."
Al 2015-06-16 18:17:11
But again, there’s a limit and I think (to me) 55 should be it (regardless of my age).As I think on what I wrote, which was:
I can also remember thinking at 20 that 45 year old women looked pretty gross to me. Now they look pretty damn good! And when I’m 75, a 60 year old might look pretty appealing too!I realise that my view of things at 20 was NOT based on fact. Of course they were attractive at 45. But SP and other limiting belief factors helped ME put them off the menu. For example, they were the same age as my mum. Or they were my friends' mums. Or whatever. Reasons to put them off limits were invented by me and supported by society's running commentary about what was acceptable and what wasn't. As the saying goes, "If I'd known then what I know now." 😀 So, the fact that I denied myself the pleasures of older women that were definitely on offer was ALL MY FAULT! As to the upper age limit, you may well be right. I am spoiled by my fave 45 year old who has the important bits of a 20 year old. But! 🙂 We will find out the truth as we age.
buzz 2015-06-16 19:19:24
I think relative age is more important than absolute age. When you are 40, 20 is half your age. When you are 50, 25 is half your age. when you are 60, 30 is half your age. when you are 70, 35 is half your age. When you are 80, 40 is half your age. Half your age is always good:) One third your age is fantastic 🙂
Al 2015-06-16 19:23:49
@buzz. Hee hee. Very good point. I don't have strong game. I wander about and somehow seem to meet women. So, as it works for me, I'll go with two thirds my age. But your point is well taken. I shall spend the weekend pondering it; between bouts of bedroom gymnastics and a spot of refreshment! 🙂 A third of 80 is 26.66666666666667. I'll write that down and keep it in case at 80 I can't remember it. 😀
buzz 2015-06-17 10:46:25
2/3 is good I am sure that will prevent you from becoming a lonely old man, well that and the train layout 🙂
Dennis 2015-06-17 14:05:38
@Signor Farfallen Just curious where in Asia do you live? I'm 63, live in Chicago, and I find there are less and less woman in there 40s and 50s that are "fuckable". After age 60 the number drops substantially. As women age, from my point of view, they get less desirable, less attractive and feel more entitled. I'm very fit, muscular, wealthy, put in the numbers online and am successful so I have no complaints there. Most of my LTRs don't last much beyond the NRE stage. That's mostly my fault because I refuse to kiss ass and am outcome independent. I, like most men, want those 20-30 y/o bodies and skin. But as I age, my options are getting less attractive. I worry about what my options will be when I'm in my 70s and 80s. I once saw a 60 Minute show about STDs among the aged, where they showed seniors in there 80s hooking up regularly in Miami Florida. While the men were in bad shape, the woman were horrible. I often wonder if that's what's in store for me. Whence my question to @Signor Farfallen to where in Asia he lives as a possible solution to old age for me.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-18 01:14:20
Dennis, Wow man, if you are sorted out financially then hit the road. Phillipines, Thailand, Indonesia, China, South American, Cuba....anywhere. The world is heaven for American guys with money. If you're not tied down and still really want to be involved with twenty somethings then sell off your stuff and bolt. I'm excited for you. If you're really well off and don't want the pure debauchery of South Asia then China is good. You can live in Shenzhen for easy access to Hong Kong, Changping, Guilin. That's a very safe part of the world outside of the crosswalks. South Asia is cheaper though but it seems the pure and outright commercial sex is quite dull. That's what the atmosphere is there. In China there is a bit more subtlety involved, though not always. If young women are what you want then I think you need to leave.
POB 2015-06-18 04:34:32
I realise that my view of things at 20 was NOT based on fact. Of course they were attractive at 45. But SP and other limiting belief factors helped ME put them off the menu. For example, they were the same age as my mum. Or they were my friends’ mums. Or whatever. Reasons to put them off limits were invented by me and supported by society’s running commentary about what was acceptable and what wasn’t. As the saying goes, “If I’d known then what I know now.”Completely agree. But we should not beat ourselves about that. Now we know the truth 😉 I must confess I'm a little biased here because I've always been into older women. When I was in my early to mid 20s any girl younger than me was instantly blocked! Think about being a dumbass. Of course when I hit 30 that changed drastically, thus my current point of view.
Dennis 2015-06-18 06:53:28
@Signor Farfallen Thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated. I'm going to have to do more vacationing in the far east, and some of the spots you mentioned and see what the living conditions, technology access, women and costs are like.
Signor Farfalla 2015-06-19 03:39:31
Yeah Dennis. Get out in the world if money is not an issue. Have you ever had the chance to travel much before? You might be in for some real thrills if not. Good luck.
It-Began 2015-06-23 13:01:10
Superb thread! Thanks to everyone. Peace and love always.
Yonatan 2015-07-07 03:44:41
Great post BlackDragon and great website all around! This has been a wonderful educational experience for me! I am a guy in the mid-life crisis phase. I just turned 37 a couple months ago. I'm balding (or pretty dang bald now) and getting older. I guess I feel I am not so attractive anymore, since I have gone bald. I'm in better physical shape and slimmer than I was in most of my 20s though, but I miss my hair. I do eat healthy, do weightlifting and keep active. Maybe, I am just gameless. I live in, perhaps, the most feminist and worst places on the earth to be a single male, the Seattle, WA area. Also, I come from a religious background that has thrown a monkey wrench in the life of dating for me, anyhow. I will comment on the moving to a foreign country option. Indeed, I have considered doing this for years, but have not had the means to do it yet. However, I will say if you marry an educated and religious girl, like religious Christian or Jew, overseas and take her back to the USA, the probability of her ditching you will be much less than even marrying a native born AMerican girl. In fact, they have done studies showing that the divorce rate of brides married overseas is half that of marriages between native born Americans. So, your prospects of a long-lasting marriage are much higher with a foreign girl than with a native born yankee American (or Canadian) girl. If you are planning on finding a foreign bride that you may like to take back to the USA, you would obviously avoid all mail-order brides. Avoiding SE Asian girls is probably a good idea too, as they are considerably more materialistic and finding a "PROVIDER/GOLD MINE" is very ingrained into their psyche. I partially blame the presence of US military and old American who travel there to the fact that intermarriage for their mentality. Places like South America or certain religious Eastern European women would make much more respectful and loyal wives. Of course, if you are not a religious person, then you would be stuck dating (and marrying) the lesser religious ones who would have more of a chance of being drawn into the Western culture , where loyalty, faith and risk of eternal punishment are less of a worry.
Blackdragon 2015-07-07 15:42:05
if you marry an educated and religious girl, like religious Christian or Jew, overseas and take her back to the USA, the probability of her ditching you will be much less than even marrying a native born AMerican girl.Yes, but that's not saying much. The odds of divorce are still extremely high. As I've said before, just because 30% is lower than 50% doesn't mean 30% is good.
they have done studies showing that the divorce rate of brides married overseas is half that of marriages between native born Americans.If there are, I question their long-term range. Show me a link. But again, even if true (and I don't believe it) those odds are still horrible. Now if there were credible studies showing your odds of divorce were 80% or 90% less if doing this, that would be something. But "half?" No.
Yonatan 2015-07-07 17:39:51
I'll have to get back to you on the statistics, but I have read it in multiple articles where the quotes were taken from National Divorce statistics. Included in the statistics are the ethnicity and birthplaces of the couples involved in the divorce. I believe the divorce rates were for first time divorcees, so it would indicate a long-term relationship. From what I read it was 50% or so for first time American marriages compared to 25% for first time mixed marriages. This is not a great statistic, but at least it's a step above marrying a native born American woman. BTW.. Religious Christian and Jewish women have a lot of obligations and are looked down upon by family and community for divorcing. For example, if you marry an Indian Christian or Hindu woman, she would practically would tolerate the worst treatment imaginable before divorcing you. In their culture, for example, marriage is a lifelong commitment and they have great admiration of their families. Their families would practically disown them for divorcing their husband and marrying another guy, especially if he is considered a "Devout Christian" by their standards. The same goes for Hindus, but you usually need to be a Hindu and even the right caste to marry another Hindu. Indian people have, perhaps, the lowest divorce rate in the world and the Indian marriages in the USA also last longer than that of other Americans. I see you are planning on leaving the country for good in another one of your blogs. I'm curious as to where you are planning on going? I wish I was as business savvy and successful as you and had the ability to jump ship. I'd also buy some land in Montana or somewhere just to come back and visit time to time to enjoy some hiking or my firearm hobby, which is pretty much impossible to have in most other countries. America can be a great place if you are unmarried, but once you are married, I DO AGREE, the courts pretty much own your butt. I will never get legally married in the USA, so importing a bride will not be a feasible option for me. I also would not want to have children in the USA, so I would not be at the mercy of the dreaded American child support system. I will say you are inspirational guy and do present a lot of sober knowledge. I'm going to spend more time reading your blog and other websites as I feel you are teaching me more about American women. I've tried hard to be in love or even in lust with American women, but somehow I feel utterly repulsed by them. I guess in my older age, the feeling is mutual. Getting old has some advantages. The only American girls I am attracted to are in the early to mid 20s, but being an older man makes it a chore to have such a relationship or even friendship with them.
Blackdragon 2015-07-08 21:58:00
Religious Christian and Jewish women have a lot of obligations and are looked down upon by family and community for divorcing. For example, if you marry an Indian Christian or Hindu woman, she would practically would tolerate the worst treatment imaginable before divorcing you.Yes, when in living their own country. If you bring them back to the US, you murder all of that. Not immediately, but eventually. I've fucked a lot of foreign-born women who had American husbands who married them "over there" and brought them back here. They divorced these guys as soon as they (the women) became westernized. I would bet $5,000 that if you marry one of these women and then bring her back to the west, you'll be divorced within 10 years. And I'll be right.
I see you are planning on leaving the country for good in another one of your blogs. I’m curious as to where you are planning on going?I don't know yet. At the moment, the short list is (in no particular order): Singapore, Chile, China, Hong Kong, or New Zealand. I'm not moving until 2025 though. From now until then I'm going to spend 1-2 months abroad instead.
Yonatan 2015-07-09 03:41:00
Black Dragon, your pessimistic view is understandable. Do I feel it is entirely accurate? No.. It is hard to tell what happens when you bring a traditional girl from a religious background to this country. I guess if you attend a religious community where the woman does not only have to answer to you, her Alpha 2.0 guy (maybe I am 1.5, somewhere in between 1.0 and a 2.0), as well as to answer to her community, the chances of her fucking around are much less . I have known of Hindu girls here whose fathers hunted them down and killed them for marrying the wrong caste. Of course, Muslim girls here in traditional families practically live under same Sharia rules that they would in the Middle East. It is the Muslim men who seem to get an easy ride living in Western society sleeping around with all the American girls they please and then coming home to their traditional wife. I know a lot of these guys and see how they live. It is hard for me to convey myself and I am not sure of your background. If you are dealing with foreign women of the secular world, then obviously, what was the big inspiration for her to marry you and not take a local guy? Financial, would be the most logical. Unless, you just have this amazing personality. If she is religious and you become part of religious community and know her family, there is a bond formed. If she was not a virgin or believes there is a great spiritual demand for her to submit/honor the husband, raise children , be a homemaker, etc, then why would she confine herself to that lifestyle? A belief system and community is important to most women. Or else, they feel a bit empty and isolated. They will go and seek other forms of entertainment, as they will become bored. And, the desire of being admired and adored is another trait a female has. Do men wear globs of makeup and spend hours preparing themselves before leaving the house, as a woman does? Think about that. To be admired and adored by a husband alone and not a community is one thing that leads a woman to seek that admiration from other men. Anyway, regardless, I do agree marrying a foreign woman and living in a foreign country is the best bet for security. American culture and legal system is going to hell. We are not the country of our forefathers. Truth, Liberty and Justice is eroding away into Lies, Imprisonment and Corruption. New Zealand I hear is a great country with friendly people and spectacular scenery, but horrible internet service, beware! I also grew up in the Pacific Northwest, like you, and it is a beautiful place, but has its flaws. 2025, may be the time I leave this country too. Unless my software business hits it big before then.
Blackdragon 2015-07-09 17:30:37
It is hard to tell what happens when you bring a traditional girl from a religious background to this country.No it is not. The stats and my observations make it quite clear. The majority of the time, they eventually (and "eventually" may take many years) become westernized and divorce the man. If you want to go down that road, it's your life, do what you will. This is my final response to you on this topic. To all other men reading this, as I already clearly pointed out in the above article, do NOT marry a woman from the the third world and bring her back to the West thinking that will result in a lifetime monogamous marriage. It will not. The only way to put the odds in your favor for that is to marry a third world woman while in the third world and then stay there the rest of your life.
Yonatan 2015-07-09 19:54:31
I don't have to discuss the issue with you. However, I wonder how many religious women you have had sex with from the third world. Also, I have heard horror stories of quite a few guys who got jacked big time in the Third World. But, since you don't want to talk about it anymore, I won't tell you about some of the things I heard about in Ghana, where I stayed for three months. In my opinion, you are basically better off never being married anywhere, actually. Legal marriage anywhere is just a recipe for disaster. You are basically, in writing, giving the government, courts and woman the right to own your ass. It's your blog and if you are not open to debate, I will not engage you in it. I will say I agree with a majority of what you write on your blogs, anyhow. So I am not really even desiring to argue over the point. I'm actually very anti-marriage. Marriage to me is spiritual, not legal. Any foreign woman who wants to marry me and live with me in the USA will have to get her own greencard without my help. That obviously isn't very likely to happen.
Nathan 2015-07-14 23:40:03
Here is a tasty little quote: "sometimes it's better to be wrong and married than right and alone" http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/70225769/pete-wentz-saved-joel-madden-and-nicole-richies-marriage?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Outbrain_cpc_Entertainment Disregarding the fact that they have kids of coarse (they need to negotiate), it is funny how they would rather be unhappy and married.
Mark 2015-09-08 06:31:14
I'm afraid I dont fit in any of above. From around 2000-2001 to present day I only have fucked prostitutes (hundreds of them, in fact), and I plan keep doing it the rest of my (sexually capable) life. As a forty something not so tall, not so handsome, not so funny man, my chances to fuck millennial chicks in a weekly basis tend to zero, (no matter how many buy-my-book-now-and-change-your-life say the opposite). I fuck a different hot gal every week for a very reasonable ammount of money... maybe is not the best of scenarios, but its not that bad... most guys my age are married to fat grumpy women, what is waaay worse in my view.
Blackdragon 2015-09-14 15:33:23
I’m afraid I dont fit in any of above.Yes you do. You're going to fuck hookers the rest of your life. You're an option 3 guy. (Why to people resist being categorized so hard, even when it's obvious? Strange.)
Joe joe 2015-11-22 00:18:29
Why do or dont you want kids? How can a man who is very unnattactive get women... I can just walk up to them say let me take you shopping im a spend 1000 on you? Go for min wage working chicks or girls at cheap clothing stores... So i have a better chance of them saying yes... How can i use my $ to attract them basically .. Offer to tske em shopping or buy a really nice car or make offers on social media etc
Blackdragon 2015-11-22 18:38:51
Why do or dont you want kids?I already have kids.
How can a man who is very unnattactive get womenImprove your appearance and game. I'm far more attractive now than I was 7 or 8 years ago, even though I'm now 7 or 8 years older.
I can just walk up to them say let me take you shopping im a spend 1000 on you?No.
How can i use my $ to attract them basicallyHookers and sugar daddy sites are always an option. But again, I would go the self-improvement route instead.
joelsuf 2016-04-26 05:29:59
Coming here from your latest post about Roosh. Forever Player checking in, unless you count having friends with benefits as OLTRs. I have one such friend with benefits who lives out of town. Trying to get one here but its not going too well at the moment. I do have something to say about strict MGTOW, it is NOT an option. Usually boys get cornered into it and its usually a default state because they have no idea of how to get any chick on a date without help of some kind and instead of addressing it, they let their anxiety run their lives. When a boy goes strict MGTOW, it means they have given up on life in most cases. One of my childhood buddies is like this, and he's one of the better ones. He'll be 35 in October, has had sex exactly once with one woman in his 20s (who cheated on him repeatedly), and now he masks his uncomfortable responses to chicks a lot. Although he has a job, he still lives with his folks and pretty much can't do anything by himself: Can't cook, can't do laundry, can't do basic car repairs. Another boy who I know, was a regular at my job and used to brag about his celibacy as if it was some kind of accomplishment. He was a big time conspiracy theorist and a "truther." He would give me full on lectures on how he knew that the earth was flat etc and that he was going to save the world and whatever. Of course, he was in his late 20s, didn't even have a job as getting a job or making any money was "supporting the new world order" (and he would give me shit whenever I said "oh but you're totally cool with using your parents money to buy stuff?"). And then of course you have Rodger, Sodini, Cho, and all these other madmen who strict MGTOW masturbate to. All three of which claimed that they were "beating the system" by going strict MGTOW. There's a difference between taking time off dating and sex for awhile like I do, and taking permanent time off dating and sex and thinking you are free because of that. Most Strict MGTOW that I've encountered are actually proud that they still live in mommy's basement and have given up on life. That's nothing to be proud of.
BrianNY 2017-01-10 20:15:37
The options I'm looking at is a combination of "3. Be a Player/Casual sex," with I'm not totally sure yet if it's "7. Polyamory, or 8. Serial OLTRs." I'm not a "PUA" as most of them at best appear to be at the Little League level, and I consider myself (in a strong/humble/success mindset/and natural Alpha disposition) to be at the Major Leagues level as a Sex-Positive/Pro-Sexuality/Professional Level Player (for lack of a better quick term). I am 100 percent in favor of being a masculine sexual man who meets feminine sexual women for casual sex that we both enjoy. I meet women in the U.S. now, but eventually I plan to travel more (Latin America, European areas) to get laid. I don't "have to" travel to try to get laid, it just seems interesting to eventually travel to a few new areas for some new fun and sexual experiences (like on a Bucket List of goals), and to make some more women around the world happier. Therefore, I have a Casual Sex is natural and normal perspective. I'm 100 percent in favor of "casual sex." I have nothing against it for adult men and women and it's something I do as a masculine sexual man living my own life. I'm not against "arrangements" in exchange for money (I haven't done that yet), but I plan to eventually. I'm not talking "sugar daddy" as that's out of my price range. There are some girls who don't make a lot who would benefit from some extra on the side, and if I ever happened to meet a few to help each other out I would. I'm interested in experiments such as various sexual techniques for a variety of things, and when I meet women who are also interested in trying some new things then we can agree on possibly those women being compensated in certain ways "arrangements." I'm not against prostitution/sex workers/escorts, and I think it should be decriminalized, but it's illegal in the U.S., so that's not an option. Although it probably is better for most women to not do it. I've never been to an escort. It's way to expensive in the U.S. (I've seen $1000 to $3000 an hour, that's thousands of dollars an hour), and that's way out of my price range. I was considering trying an escort in Canada until they made it illegal so that's out. Someday if I ever traveled to a country where escorts were legal and cheaper I probably would try a few. I never call any woman a slut or whore, unless it's for fun "dirty talk" where she knows it's just in a fun/flirty/playful way. As a very masculine man I'm sexually attracted to openly sexual women (who have high sexual energy/a high sex drive) that many insecure beta guys call sluts. I'm 100 percent against "slut shaming," and I avoid anyone who tries to "slut shame" because I avoid negative people. I'm in favor of men and women having "casual sex" for pleasure and fun experiences. Therefore, I'm not sure if this fits better with "option 7 or 8." I plan on having "Short Term Relationships" along with some "Medium Term Relationships." Anywhere from one day, one week, a few months, a year, maybe up to three years, possibly there could be a few women I might know for around five years. I strive to always stay on good terms with people including women, so some relationships could continue for years (maybe we see each other once or twice a week or month or few months). I'm open to any possibility, except marriage. Also, I'm never going to "live with a woman" in a "cohabitation" situation, so any woman and I have our own places, then get together once and a while. We are both free to "date/have sex with" other people (it's probably better to not verbally talk about this for many months, if at all). I don't plan to be in an exclusive relationship with just one woman. Maybe with one woman or more, we've been seeing each other once and a while for over a year (and we really get along as we're both easy-going and we are both open-minded sex-positive people and we like each other and have a lot of fun together), maybe another woman we meet twice a week for a few months, and another woman we've known each other for a few weeks, then maybe I met a new girl today (and possibly that will only last for one day or maybe we'll end up knowing each other for years). Then, I travel to other countries two or three times a year and meet girls where we have a sexual relationship for one day or a few days. I could not be in a relationship with a girl who was extremely religious, and/or sexually repressive. To screen for this if a woman won't do anything sexual by "date" two, then to not waste more time I have to move on to the next to find the women who are sexually interested. I have no plans to have kids. I have zero problems with loneliness (by the time I read/write every day, exercise, take care of awesome pets, take actions to achieve goals, work on business, check the Internet, go many places, have "dates" with women, work on my Mission/projects/hobbies/passions, photography, travel, talk to relatives, do things for other people, do tons of research and experiments, some days watch a movie, use new technologies, look into investments, plus I naturally like to be alone a lot to think and relax, etc, loneliness is not an issue for me). I was raised in a repressive religion that I did not agree with and was told the brainwashing lie that people "Had To get married to have sex." For me even the thought of getting married makes me claustrophobic in a sense because of being self-repressed due to religion for many years (where after rejecting that religious indoctrination even the thought of marriage triggers a negative association to being married). My core value is freedom and my real-self Identity involves not being married. When I think about my other options as described above it makes me feel freedom and happy and filled with energy/motivation to take actions to live that lifestyle to enjoy life and have fun.
Eddie 2017-01-11 22:53:30
"The days of the perfect male long-term marriage/relationship scenario have been gone for several decades now" And what exactly is/was that scenario?
Blackdragon 2017-01-12 00:26:48
And what exactly is/was that scenario?That's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, a perfect scenario never existed. In the opinion of a traditional conservative, it was back in the 1950s and prior, when the divorce rate was only 7%, women didn't work, and people pretty much stayed married forever (though people cheated of course).
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