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-By Caleb Jones
Many years ago, guys who promoted nonmonogamy like me were often attacked by pro-monogamy people throwing a bunch of bullshit Disney around by saying monogamy worked perfectly as long as you found the right person. But that was long ago, and since then, divorce rates have increased, and the amount of men and women cheating on each other has also increased. So today, people who fervently defend monogamy, particularly long-term monogamy, end up looking a little stupid. They’re saying monogamy works fine while they see pretty much everyone around them consistently failing at it by experiencing cheating or breakups. (To be clear, I’m only talking about the Western world here. If you live outside of the West, you may not be in this category.)
As a response to this, over the last few years, many of these people, particularly men, have down-shifted into the next excuse, which is to just cheat. Just get a “monogamous” girlfriend or wife, get a second phone, password protect your laptop, get really good at lying to her all the time, and bang women on the side. This, they say, is better than being nonmonogamous or open while still offering the benefits of monogamy.
The problem is that it isn’t accurate in any way.
Listed below are all the reasons and excuses these men have used to defend a cheating lifestyle, along with my responses. Just like my Objections to Nonmonogamy and Their Answers article and my Questions and Answers About Soft Nexts article, I will consider this article a living document that I will add to continuously, if needed, as new excuses arise from the pro-cheater crowd. Also, like those two articles, I will exempt this article from my no-commenting-on-older-articles rule, in that I will respond to comments in this article in perpetuity, provided they’re relevant and/or interesting.
First, I will cover the four huge negatives of cheating, and why it damages your long-term happiness as a man, then I’ll cover the excuses pro-cheaters use below that.
First off, the emotional stress of cheating is intense and constant. I have known many men who are regular cheaters, and these men are constantly on edge. They are in a state of near-constant fear; fear of getting caught, fear of the drama that will result, fear of her leaving them, etc. Actually relaxing with their girlfriend or wife is doable, but difficult.
As I’ve said before, the only reason you should be with a woman is that her being with you makes you happier than her not being with you. If her being with you is a constant source of stress, fear, or discomfort because you have this nagging sense of dread that she might find out you’re cheating on her, you’re destroying the entire reason you're being with her.
You could argue that you “have to" be with her because you have kids with her or some other relationship infrastructure with her. If you choose to suffer unhappiness forever because of this type of scenario, I still disagree with you, but even if I didn’t, we have the next problem…
You’re assuming you’ll never get caught, and the odds are overwhelming that you will. Please take a minute and read this article about how men who cheat almost always get caught eventually. Men are biologically wired to sexually conquer and brag about it. When men cheat, it’s extremely difficult, if not impossible to keep it a secret forever because they want to talk about it with people. Thus, they let things slide a little and get caught. Almost always.
When women cheat on men, it’s very different. They’re actually assisted by anti-sex Societal Programming and their own ASD. This is why when women cheat, they become CIA agent ninjas, doing amazing things to keep everything secret and quiet and easily keeping it up for years and years if necessary. When men cheat, they either aren’t careful at all or are careful for a while until they start making mistakes.
If you’re defending the concept of cheating, you’re likely operating under the assumption that you’ll never get caught. WRONG! You. Will. Get. Caught. Eventually. Count on it. Which brings us to the next problem…
Hiding everything, living a double life is a huge amount of work and hassle, and it never ends. Maintaining multiple phones.Maintaining multiple cell phone accounts. Multiple checking accounts. Secret email accounts. Secret social media accounts. Keeping hotel bills and travel bills a secret. Password protecting everything in your life. Trying to explain to your wife / girlfriend why you password protect everything (thus raising suspicion even more). Constantly monitoring everyone’s social media (and not just yours, but those of your girlfriend / wife and of your side-women). Making sure that your women don’t run into each other by accident. Constantly removing / hiding all the “evidence” of your sexual encounters. Trying to hide your online dating efforts. Trying to keep everyone in your social circle quiet about what you’re doing. And on, and on, and on.
Doing all this hiding, sneaking around crap is way to much work. Listen man, I already work during the day on my business / financial life, seven days a week. The last thing I want after I’m done working is to then turn around and do more work in my relationship life. No thanks. Your relationship life is where you should relax and enjoy yourself, not engage in more work. Why the hell would you want to do that?
It’s true that nonmonogamy is a bit of work up front when the relationship is new. But, once you get past the three month mark and you have The Talk, the “work” is over. Cheating, on the other hand, is a lot of damn work that never ends.
I don’t have oneitis, ever. Any woman in my life, even a serious high-end MLTR, OLTR, or OLTR wife who I love very much can leave me whenever the hell she wants if I don’t make her happy. Of course, I’d rather she stay, but I don’t want her to stay if her staying means she damages my happiness, or because she’s unhappy (which will cause me to be unhappy), or because she demands things that will make me less happy. My long-term happiness and my Mission are more important to me than keeping a woman around who wants me to be something I’m not.
If you’d rather cheat and be incongruent with who you are, then you’re the opposite. You’re going out of your way to pretend to be something you’re not. THAT’S NOT ALPHA. THAT’S BETA.
Okay, now that we’ve had our fun, here are the specific excuses men who defend cheating often use, and their responses.
1. Cheating is easier because then women won’t pressure you to be monogamous.
Cheating is not easier, as I just established above. Cheating is a hefty workload that never goes away, unlike being in a correctly-managed nonmonogamous relationship where you manage EFA for a little while and then give her The Talk.
It’s true that some women will pressure you for some more seriousness or exclusivity during the initial phases of the relationship, but in the vast majority of cases, this goes away (or drops by 90%) once you hit The Talk, and usually vanishes altogether if you do an OLTR.
If you’re running into constant problems with numerous women applying constant and extreme pressure on you to get serious or monogamous, then you’re not following the nonmonogamous system properly, and you need to do more research on this blog and/or you need to get my book on the subject so you can correctly follow the system and not have this problem. I certainly don’t have this problem.
Then why don’t you tell her you’re going to bang other women on the side? Ah, you don’t want to tell her because you know she won’t allow it. See?
She won’t allow it because you’ve been acting like a boyfriend or husband all this time, which screams monogamy even if you don’t verbalize it. This is something I’ve been saying for almost ten years; don’t act too much like a boyfriend or women will assume monogamy regardless of what you verbally promise.
This is honestly the stupidest and weakest excuse pro-cheating men make. It doesn’t fucking matter that you didn’t raise your right hand and verbally say “I will not fuck other women,” and you know it.
3. Cheating is better because that way, you can fuck girls on the side, but she can’t fuck men on the side.
Incorrect. Read this article about all the stats and studies about how often women cheat, specifically where it shows women cheating on men has increased 20% between the early 90’s and 2006 alone, and that since 2006, the infidelity rates (of both sexes) have continued to increase.
You’re forgetting that monogamy doesn’t work. Men cheat on women, women cheat on men. Both sexes hate actual, sexual monogamy and want nothing to do with it (beyond the rare and unusual exceptions to the rule) particularly beyond the three-year mark.
I can also tell you for a fact that if you cheat on her, the odds of her cheating on you go up, far beyond the high odds she has of cheating on you anyway. Men who cheat on women thinking the women will stay faithful are living in a Guy-Disney fantasyland.
4. Okay, yeah, you’re right. You shouldn’t cheat, but! Once your wife gets older and after she’s had a few kids and her body goes to shit, cheating a little on the side is okay as long as you do it discreetly and you don’t disrespect your wife. Men are attracted to youth and tight bodies so it’s only natural, and women need to understand that.
Obviously, I completely agree that women need to understand that men are not monogamous creatures, and that no woman should expect a man under the age of 60 to be sexually monogamous forever. Women also need to understand that men of all ages are biologically attracted to youth, and that we don’t “choose” this attraction, since it’s part of our hard-coded biological wiring. So you and I are on the same page on that.
But that doesn’t change any of the problems and negatives I’ve outlined in this entire article. Just because she should understand these things doesn’t mean you won’t get caught, that she won’t get furious when you do, that you won’t have spend all this time and effort hiding all of this from her, that she won’t cheat on you, etc, etc, etc.
5. Nonmonogamy is too much work / too complicated. It’s easier to just lie to her and get some on the side.
I answered this one above already, but to summarize, cheating is more work in totality than nonmonogamy since nonmonogamy (if done correctly!) is only “work” during the first few weeks of the relationship, while cheating is “work” during the entire relationship.
6. Nice girls / high quality girls would never go for nonmonogamy. You have to cheat on those.
Incorrect. Read items #30, #42, and #43 right here.
7. I’m already married / have a serious girlfriend. If I try to open up the relationship, she’ll divorce / dump me! I’ll just cheat instead, then she’ll stay with me.
Refer to the “odds are overwhelming you’ll get caught” section above. (Oh, and then you might want to read the part right after that about how you’re being a needy pussy too.)
8. Hey man, I have kids. Just because I don’t want my wife to divorce me doesn’t mean I’m a “pussy” or a “beta.” I don’t want to get divorced and lose my fucking kids, okay?
Then again, please refer to the section above that shows you’ll likely get caught if you cheat. You will eventually get caught if you cheat regularly! Then say goodbye to your kids. You will have accomplished nothing.
If your response to that is that she won’t divorce / leave if she finds out you’ve been cheating on her, then you’ve proved my entire point about her staying with you even if you convert the marriage or relationship to something open / nonmonogamous. Get my book on how to do that and get to work instead of making these pathetic, pussy excuses.
If you enjoy drama or don’t mind drama, then I’m not sure why you’re reading this blog. This blog, and all my writings on all topics, are about how men can achieve long-term consistent happiness (as much as is humanly possible). You can’t be happy if you have drama in your life. If you don’t care that you’re unhappy, then feel free to ignore everything I’m saying and do whatever you like, but I really don’t know why you’re here reading my content. You should probably go read someone angry like Roosh or Heartiste.
10. My wife / girlfriend knows I cheat and lets me do it.
Then it’s not cheating. Congratulations, you’re in an open relationship. Well done, and welcome to the Alpha Male 2.0 community!
11. I live in a culture where men are expected to cheat (Southern Europe, South America, etc). So it’s okay where I live. So yeah, you North Americans / Northern Europeans shouldn’t do it, but it’s okay if I do it.
If by “okay” you mean it’s okay to be with a woman who constantly screams at you about having sex with other women on the side, but who doesn’t actually leave you, then I guess you’re correct. I call this kind of thing a Mediterranean marriage (or relationship). These are only for very high-drama men who enjoy drama (or who at least don’t mind it) and who are attracted to higher-drama women and relationships. Again, if you are one of these men, feel free to do whatever you want, but then honestly, I don’t know why you’re reading this blog.
12. Your entire assumption is that cheating is a lot of work, but that’s only if you’re trying to maintain a relationship with the fling. If you just do one night stands with flings it's not any work.
Incorrect. It has nothing to do with whether you're seeing the same side-girl regularly or just having one night stands; it's still all the same amount of work. The hassle of hiding everything, emotionally worrying about getting caught, high odds of eventually getting caught, etc. None of that significantly changes based on the length or type of relationships you have with your flings.
13. Cheating is easy if you travel a lot for business.
Two problems with this:
1. Change "easy" to "not quite as much work" and then I agree with you. The work, overhead, risk, and negative emotions are still there, just not quite as much. It's still not "easy" or "no work" or "no risk."
2. Even more importantly, women who are married to or dating men who travel a lot cheat more often than normal women. (Just look at military wives!) I've seen this anecdotally many times. The first married woman I had a fling with had a husband like this; he was always out of town. Women get lonely and horny when their husband/boyfriend goes out of town all the time, so while you're cheating, she probably is too, and with someone like me.
14. Some guys honestly like cheating on women. They think it's fun and it gives them a rush.
Some guys honestly like smoking meth or shooting heroin. They think it's fun and it gives them a rush. Will doing that make them happy? Is it a good idea?
15. If you only have sex with prostitutes, then it's okay, because they won't tell anyone.
1. That only eliminates one problem (the woman you're sleeping with possibly telling others). That does not eliminate any of the other many problems I've described above. You're still in the same boat.
2. Most men don't like having sex with hookers. Many other men can't afford the cost of regular hookers where they live (not everyone lives in Thailand). So even if you're right (which you are not), that advice will only apply to a small percentage of men. Whereas all men in the Western world can follow my advice, if they want.
16. The only guys who get caught are idiots who aren't doing this right. If instead, you develop an organized system and follow it at all times without fail, cheating works great. For example, you can only fuck prostitutes, hire a therapist to talk about it so you don't blab about it to others, only brag about it online anonymously, systematize your technology, etc.
Raise your hand if you personally know a man who has done literally all of that and kept it up for 5-10+ years without ever faltering on it, ever, and never got caught, ever. Yeah. Nobody.
Now raise your hand if you personally know men who've had nonmonogamous FB's, MLTR's, and yes, serious and consistent OLTR's for 5-10+ years and have not had any major problems. I personally know many, and I'm aware of thousands, as I described in detail in Objection #3 right here.
In other words, I'm talking about the real world here and you're being entirely theoretical. Men who cheat don't sit down and develop advanced, complicated master plans like Lex Luthor and then follow them with robotic efficiency forever. Oh, some they think they do, but they don't.
And even if you're right (which you are not), that only eliminates the one problem of not getting caught. Your entire point proves my point about how much god damn work it is to cheat on a woman. Only fuck hookers? Hire a fucking therapist? Spend the rest of my life managing (and spending money on) multiple phones, checking amounts, email addresses, etc? Kill me dude. I'd rather use my system, which is far less work and stress. This is one of those "thank you for proving my point" excuses. So thank you.
Lastly, "systematizing your technology," if you don't mind all the god damn work and expense, is only a short-term solution, since soon it will be impossible to cheat on women precisely because of technology. Read this article here.
That’s it! I will continue to add any new excuses to this article that I see or hear that aren’t included in the above list.
If you are about to make a comment about how you don’t like nonmonogamy or how nonmonogamy “doesn’t work,” please refer to the objections in this article and this one before you comment, since I probably already answered your objection there. If you post a comment about an objection I’ve already answered, I will simply link to it in my response (since I dislike repeating myself.)
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hey hey 2017-08-24 05:23:34
This is exactly the argument we had in one of your older blog posts with Jack. I also find that cheating is beta and weak. If you want to fuck other women then break up with your current mono gf and then go fuck other women. Then if she pesters you tell her that you are who you are. If she wants to come back to you she is welcome to do it under this knowledge. Never done that, but I truly believe this is the better course of action than telling her straight that you are going to fuck other women while you are still in a relationship with her. Your frame was off the entire time and in her eyes that won't change easily unless you let her be and make the transition while you are not with her.
AA 2017-08-24 05:48:10
Your entire assumption is that cheating is a lot of work, but that's only if you're trying to maintain a relationship with the fling. I'm a thrill of the chase guy. Having a quick 1-3 date leading to a wham bam thank you mam fling with a girl in the next city over is quick and done with after having a bit of fun. It's very easy to avoid getting caught and it's even easier if you have to travel a lot for business.
Yannick 2017-08-24 06:12:03
Funny article i never cheated on any of my girlfriend i never believed in cheating, if you think of cheating or jumping the fence its time to switch, But i got cheated on and now i live alone, the world is a mess right now and i feel i am so much better off alone then being with a women that is plain and boring at 45 i am very active and cannot find a women to follow me.
hey hey 2017-08-24 06:19:17
@AA: But the point is even with one night stands eventually you will get caught if you do it regularly, the world is small and when that happens everything will collapse. What is the point? Why not being blunt? What are you afraid of? That she'll leave you?
Tee 2017-08-24 06:25:54
Your system has one big problem. You allow your girl(s) to fuck other men. Most men want a to feel some kind of pride of ownership of the woman they are with. It's ingrained in our biology so that we don't raise other another mans child. Saying that it's still infinitely better than marrying a modern western woman in 2017.
hey hey 2017-08-24 06:32:20
If its infinitely better then where is the problem? Who cares if most men want to go for the worst? Their lives to destroy. And more women for us to enjoy.
Marty 2017-08-24 07:08:47
I've done cheating while married. Not fun! I eventually left and confessed. I'm still dealing with the fallout from that with my sons. I'm not sure that will ever be repaired. I did non-monogamy very badly without the frame or knowledge that BD's stuff gives. Massive amounts of drama and constant pressure to go monogamous. Even worse than cheating! Doing non-mono wrong is bad. VERY bad! I think this is were a lot of guys who are against it come from. Now I'm doing proper non-monogamy. There was pressure at the beginning to test my resolve about it but now the longer it goes that has almost completely gone. And the relationship is better than ever. Now I'm jokingly putting pressure on my OLTR to find me hot girls to fuck. She is not so good at it, but has actually got me one once or twice. 😀
Nbdy 2017-08-24 08:01:23
I definitely agree on Blackdragon with his reasoning, but unfortunately I'm not there "yet". I noticed that I act too much as the boyfriend with my dates and girls (but less and less, through practice). My current girlfriend even told me that she knows we are not in a typical relationship (that she was not able to define), and that men have needs, so I could have ONS as long as I never tell her and she never knows about it. But as you say, it will eventually happen. Everytime I meet a new girl (through daygame though, 80% of the time), I just skip "The Talk Part" and catch myself going with the cheating thing because it's easier on the short term, like "Nah, she is submissive, and I see her once a week, no way I get caught, let's keep it that way". I do feel that it is much work, and when sometimes she asks questions, I just manage to avoid the subject everytime (and that, she told too). I definitely have to take the last step by grabbing my balls once and for all. As @Tee said, the fact that you "allow" girls to have sex with other men is most likely part of the reasons why I keep procrastinating on that subject too. But that's a matter of beliefs (as she would cheat, anyway). Thanks BD.
hey hey 2017-08-24 08:36:05
The Talk part is needed only if she pushes you hard. She will eventually but if this takes longer than expected then you are probably on the right track. There is no skipping The Talk. Eventually she'll push hard that you are forced to go with it. You are not cheating if your frame is correct and you promised her nothing. The Talk just makes it official. It doesn't mean you are cheating before that.
anon1 2017-08-24 09:45:24
Funny enough most of the manosphere sites used to be against cheating. But after realizing that being Alpha doesn't stop girls from cheating on you, nor does it get rid of you wanting to bang other girls, it seems that pretty much all of them endorse one-sided cheating.
Dingus 2017-08-24 10:43:54
Great idea for an article! I find the absence of moralizing so refreshing! If there's an excuse I would add, if you can call it an excuse even, it's that some men enjoy the act of cheating. Where its effectively a fetish in its own right. I guess that probably falls under Thrill of the Hunt guys, or guys who enjoy drama maybe. I think there's a subset of men and women both who enjoy the rush of cheating more than even NRE. Not that that's healthy or leads to long term happiness.
Blackdragon 2017-08-24 11:19:41
Your entire assumption is that cheating is a lot of work, but that’s only if you’re trying to maintain a relationship with the fling. I’m a thrill of the chase guy. Having a quick 1-3 date leading to a wham bam thank you mam fling with a girl in the next city over is quick and done with after having a bit of fun. It’s very easy to avoid getting caught and it’s even easier if you have to travel a lot for business.I've added items 12 and 13 above to address that.
Your system has one big problem. You allow your girl(s) to fuck other men.And your system, monogamy, has the exactly same problem, except that it's even worse. She'll fuck other guys either by cheating on you or by dumping you and moving on.
Most men want a to feel some kind of pride of ownership of the woman they are with. It’s ingrained in our biology so that we don’t raise other another mans child.Correct, that's is called Obsolete Biological Wiring, and it only serves to make you unhappy for literally no reason. It's your job to re-wire yourself so you don't feel this way, which is exactly what my book is all about. You don't make excuses for your stupid, outdated biology. Instead, you adopt new systems to make you happy in spite of it.
Now I’m doing proper non-monogamy. There was pressure at the beginning to test my resolve about it but now the longer it goes that has almost completely gone. And the relationship is better than ever.Yep, that's usually how it works, once you do it correctly.
As @Tee said, the fact that you “allow” girls to have sex with other men is most likely part of the reasons why I keep procrastinating on that subject too. But that’s a matter of beliefs (as she would cheat, anyway).Exactly. The only difference is in your head, not in the real world.
The Talk part is needed only if she pushes you hard.Correct. Moreover, The Talk is only needed if she's a MLTR. FB's rarely if ever need The Talk.
Funny enough most of the manosphere sites used to be against cheating. But after realizing that being Alpha doesn’t stop girls from cheating on you, nor does it get rid of you wanting to bang other girls, it seems that pretty much all of them endorse one-sided cheating.Correct and well said. The myth in the PUA world that I ran into about 8-9 years ago was exactly that, "If you're Alpha, she won't cheat on you!" Haha! Ohhhhhh, such Guy-Disney bullshit. Alpha Male 1.0's get cheated on by their women left and right. I've had so many FB's who had strong, confident, Alpha Male 1.0's boyfriends that it's hilarious.
Great idea for an article! I find the absence of moralizing so refreshing!Yep. I am not a right-wing conservative and this is not a moral issue. This is a logistical and happiness issue.
If there’s an excuse I would add, if you can call it an excuse even, it’s that some men enjoy the act of cheating. Where its effectively a fetish in its own right. I guess that probably falls under Thrill of the Hunt guys, or guys who enjoy drama maybe. I think there’s a subset of men and women both who enjoy the rush of cheating more than even NRE. Not that that’s healthy or leads to long term happiness.You just answered your own excuse and saved me the trouble. 🙂 But I can see a pro-cheater guy making that excuse so I added above, number 14.
CrabRangoon 2017-08-24 11:55:24
BD is right you will get busted if you cheat a lot. I used to think I'd never get busted and didn't for a long time and with many girls, All it took was one time though and it was DEFCON level 1. Funny enough, the reason it came out was because some 3rd party guy that wanted my side chick. He anonymously told the GF through facebook after getting an incriminating screenshot off the side girl's phone. So it's not even like i directly messed up, but some X factor swooped in and put me on blast. This random guy I never met wanted to end the relationship I had with the side girl so he could have a shot. In the age of information with social media, saved texts and emails, etc... it's damn near impossible to keep things quiet. So if you think protecting your personal phone, email, FB, etc.. is going to keep you safe, you're wrong. You just never know who out there might be out to get ya! Plus the side chicks often catch feelings and want to break up your primary relationship so they can easily rat you out as well whenever they please. Ever since going non-monogamy, life is much less stressful and fun again. Cheating isn't possible in an open system since they all know they are not the one and only. Some choose the "don't ask don't tell" route which is fine, some girls like to know a little detail, just not the juicy details. They have their moments when it bothers them, typically because their friends are in their ear about being "disrespected" by me since I'm not exclusive even though they know about it( and they've had a bit too much wine). It's still WAY better than sneaking around.
J.B. 2017-08-24 12:14:41
I agree that cheating is wrong. That is why my parents had problems. BTW, though, are you against men over 60 having sex? You seem to indicate that they won't want it anymore after 60. Also, BK, I want to share this thread with you: http://www.theattractionforums.com/showthread.php?t=183784 In the thread, this comment stands out:
In the end, having a well-paid job (not necessarily high-paid) is a crucial factor in dating women especially as you mature past the late 20s. Women expect men in their 30s to be settled into a career and have the social and material goods to show for it. No, it does not always happen as soon as that (I started my career at 30). But women, especially as they approach middle age, have an increasingly undeniable biological drive to reproduce, and to find someone who can support the children that they have or may have.While it is possible to bed women without having high income or social status, your game will have to proportionally tight. But in the end, financial security is more important than game. If you can bed women because of your tight game but can't keep them around because you're broke, then what's the point? If you want a solid serious relationship with the possibility of marriage and/or children, having a secure job which can support you and your woman is of the utmost priority.While financial security is a good thing, I wouldn't want a woman who is only with me because I provide for her. Oh, and BTW, I am thinking about getting a copy of your book, The Unchained Man (I was the one who you called Beta a year ago for never leaving home despite being, let's just say, well over 30). If it can help me start a business or something, that would be good (I live in an area where jobs aren't that easy to come by. I have only had three interviews in the last two years).
Blackdragon 2017-08-24 12:47:59
BD is right you will get busted if you cheat a lot. I used to think I’d never get busted and didn’t for a long time and with many girls, All it took was one time though and it was DEFCON level 1.Exactly. That's exactly how it works. Guys cheat and get away with it for a while, sometimes a long while, and they think it's great and they're invincible. But then one little screw-up occurs, even one that isn't your fault, and bam, and you're FUCKED. I've seen that exact scenario play out over and over again throughout my entire life.
BTW, though, are you against men over 60 having sex?Where have I ever said this? Or anything like this? Indeed I've said the opposite more than once. You guys really need to learn to quote me correctly.
You seem to indicate that they won’t want it anymore after 60.I've never said that either. I've said that generally speaking, men will want it much less when they cross over age 60 (which is factually true) and that due to lower testosterone levels, poorer appearance / sexual potency, and poorer overall health, they will usually lack the energy or the desire to actually take the time and effort necessary to go out and get sex from new women (which is also factually true). I think that's very bad, but that's how it is. There are also exceptions to this of course, but those are the exceptions. I plan on being one of the exceptions myself, as I described in detail here, which is not that hard, particularly when you have things like TRT available to you.
In the end, having a well-paid job (not necessarily high-paid) is a crucial factor in dating women especially as you mature past the late 20s.I think it's a factor, but not a "crucial" factor. I know plenty of guys at or over their late 20's who make very little money and who get laid just fine.
But in the end, financial security is more important than game. If you can bed women because of your tight game but can’t keep them around because you’re broke, then what’s the point?Yeah, the guy writing that is incorrect. Women rarely dump guys they're already dating seriously because they don't make enough money. They do so for a host of other reasons.
Oh, and BTW, I am thinking about getting a copy of your book, The Unchained ManYou don't really have to "think" about a $9 purchase. Just buy it. (If it was one of my more expensive products or services then I would understand.)
I was the one who you called Beta a year ago for never leaving home despite being, let’s just say, well over 30I left home when I was 18, so I'm not sure what you're talking about, but yes, with almost 100% of men who actually call me a beta, I later find out they're extreme betas themselves. It's called projection, fear, and jealousy. All negative emotions that should be eliminated or minimized.
Anon 2017-08-24 17:14:08
I'm usually on the same page as you BD, but I feel like this article you put out might have been a bit too early/hasty. If I'm not mistaken, you're barely about to move in with your OLTR, correct? I think until you have maybe around(/at least?) 5 or so years living with your OLTR and have had zero problems running your non-monogamous relationship, then you can't really say it's "better" than cheating at the moment. Because technically, your OLTR could start demanding more from you within the next 5+ years because she becomes unhappy with the setup, and then you'd have to end the OLTR. I understand that this is "fine" because it fits within your system of "she can end it whenever she wants," but if every OLTR ends within, for example, 5 years of moving in together, then that possibly gives an advantage to long-term cheaters who manage to maintain their ways for many years while still living with their wife/girlfriend (who is happy and suspects little/nothing). At that point, long-term cheating has the "pro" of "can last more than X years" while your OLTR system has the con of "often ends in X or less years after moving in together." I can tell that the gentlemen who gave you reason #12 and reason #13 likely know what they are doing because I know several guys who are currently living that lifestyle and have been living that lifestyle for quite awhile. It's true that your woman will cheat on you if you're gone for extremely lengthy periods of time (such as military men gone for months and months on deployment). But a man/businessman who goes away for a week or weekend at a time can still come home regularly enough to give his woman bomb-ass orgasms. And then she won't really have much reason to cheat (assuming he continues to satisfy her sexually when he does come home; if he gets lazy, then may god have mercy on his soul when he finds out she is cheating). (EDIT: I believe monogamy mostly fails because the guy fails to continually deliver orgasms in the bedroom. Once you get lazy, you risk her going to seek it out somewhere else because suddenly you're "not the same man I married." So if your counter-argument is that "monogamy doesn't work anyway", then my counter-argument to that counter-argument is that "it only doesn't work because the guy gets lazy" -- in other words, men are mostly responsible for the deterioration of their own relationships.) I do agree that running this lifestyle is pretty nuanced, and it DOES require more work than non-monogamy, at least in the long-term. But I think it potentially has the advantage of lasting for an indefinite amount of time, whereas the OLTR in this system may always hit a wall X number of years after moving in with the girl. And if things DO end with an OLTR, it likely will require a lot of work because now you have to deal with her moving out and having to fix up your personal living situation again. Not a huge deal but also not a walk in the park either. This all being said, I actually hope you can prove me wrong! Part of the reason I'm still following your blog is to see how things continue to play out between you and Pink Firefly. 😉
Blackdragon 2017-08-24 17:49:24
I think until you have maybe around(/at least?) 5 or so years living with your OLTR and have had zero problems running your non-monogamous relationship, then you can’t really say it’s “better” than cheating at the moment.Uh... that entire argument makes no sense. 1. This article is aimed at all men in all types of relationships, not you. It's not for just the small percentage of men who read this blog and are already living with a woman. It's more pointed at normal guys who do not live with the women they date (though obviously it applies to co-habiting men to a degree as well). 2. Why is it that the superiority or inferiority OLTR over a cheating marriage depends solely on what I individually experience? Seriously, I didn't know I had that much global power. C'mon dude. That's stupid. If my live-in OLTR is literally perfect for 20 years, or completely blows up in my face just 2 years in, either way, it has no effect whatsoever on whether or not nonmonogamy is less bad than cheating. I'm just an individual, one guy out of seven billion. You need to look at larger numbers of people. Speaking of larger numbers of people... 3. Read objection #3 right here. Millions of men all over the world are doing nonmonogamy and making it work (co-habiting or not), not just me. I'm not sure why you think I'm god on this issue. With all due respect, that argument is seriously one of the most nonsensical ones I've heard on this blog. If you honestly disagree with what I'm saying (and not arguing just to argue, or not just being emotionally defensive because you cheat on your wife), then you're going to have to do much better than that.
I can tell that the gentlemen who gave you reason #12 and reason #13 likely know what they are doing because I know several guys who are currently living that lifestyle and have been living that lifestyle for quite awhile.I do too. I'm not saying that lifestyle is impossible. I'm saying that A) it's more work and B) it won't make you long-term happy.
I believe monogamy mostly fails because the guy fails to continually deliver orgasms in the bedroom.Incorrect. If that were true, you could simply just make your wife/girlfriend cum all the time and have a high lifetime monogamy success rate. Millions of men would be doing that right now and making it work, and divorce rates would drop like a stone. Yet, the horrible failure rates of monogamy, particularly among PUA's / manosphere guys who understand how important orgasms are in a relationship, demonstrate otherwise. As I've said many times, if there were a repeatable and simple "secret" guaranteed or (near guaranteed) to making long-term monogamy work, someone would have already discovered it a very long time ago and would a billionaire by now selling it.
I do agree that running this lifestyle is pretty nuanced, and it DOES require more work than non-monogamy, at least in the long-term.Correct. I don't like "working" in my relationships. I work enough, thank you. If you like working in your relationship, that's great. But don't pretend it makes you happy as compared to a man who doesn't have to worry about any of this shit.
I think it potentially has the advantage of lasting for an indefinite amount of time, whereas the OLTR in this system may always hit a wall X number of years after moving in with the girl.Live in OLTR's always fail after a few years? That's a bold claim; please show the scientific data indicating this. (Do you read what you type?)
This all being said, I actually hope you can prove me wrong! Part of the reason I’m still following your blog is to see how things continue to play out between you and Pink Firefly.Firefly and I won't prove anything to anyone, regardless of what happens to us. To say it one last time, my success or failure with a live-in OLTR does not indicate the viability of this system when millions of men are already doing it. To be fair, that's even if I succeed at it massively. If I do, you'll have pro-cheater and pro-monogamy men saying, "So what? That doesn't mean anything! Blackdragon is just one guy." Read this post in it's entirety. Either you're being purposely obtuse or I don't think you're getting this. Just be honest. Instead of these weird arguments, just say it. Just say, "I do not want my wife fucking other women, so I cheat on her, even though it kinda sucks."
Lyn 2017-08-24 18:12:39
I thought I would share from a woman's perspective that is also in an Open Marriage for almost 7 years now. BD is almost 100% correct with what he is saying in this post but there is one thing I disagree with... I think you are underestimating how many women cheat. Especially now with social media (AM, FB, IG, SC, etc.) making things VERY easy for (at the very least) decent looking women to feel good about themselves and get LOTS of attention. The primary motivation and/or reason a woman cheats is because another man made her feel desirable. With social media, she can get this need met easily and often and it's very addicting. And it DOESN'T matter if her husband/primary man at home is literally perfect. Once those "feel good" chemicals wear off from a new relationship, she gets bored and the next guy that shows her she is desirable...it's only a matter of time before an affair happens. Women are so good at hiding affairs since they have much more to lose than a guy does. And yes it's extremely true that the more sexual partners a woman has had, the more likely she will cheat on you. I have now gotten to the point where I get bored fairly quickly with my "boyfriends" because I know there are a million other attractive men out there at the touch of a button. I'm constantly in search of that "NRE" as you call it. It's 100% addicting and what keeps me happy. So guys if you are really wanting to successfully open your relationship with your woman, make sure the NRE is gone otherwise get ready for war because most likely she won't have it. UNLESS, she is a complete bum, has nothing going for herself, and relies on you for everything. In that case, she won't have a choice if she wants to stay with you. If my husband and I divorced or I became widowed, (which we never will divorce since we have an open marriage) I would be okay with being short term monogamous with my new guy to establish a solid foundation of trust, understanding, friendship, etc with the expectation of opening the relationship sometime in the future. Life is waaaaaaay to short to live with drama or misery. Plus, we are younger for a much shorter time than we are old so take FULL advantage of your youth and don't waste it!! Best of luck to all gentlemen...
J.B. 2017-08-24 21:16:24
Life is waaaaaaay to short to live with drama or misery. Plus, we are younger for a much shorter time than we are old so take FULL advantage of your youth and don’t waste it!!I think that this part is changing (or gonna change). I think that people stay younger longer today than in the past. And, there should be technologies to prolong life in the fairly near future. However, Lyn is right on with everything else she typed above.
JEB 2017-08-24 23:55:49
... yet my girlfriend is free to ask to look at my phone (or computer) whenever she wants (as long as she doesn’t give me drama about anything she sees, and as long as she doesn’t do it too often; for example, she hasn’t asked to see my phone in many weeks).I'm guessing you mean that she borrows your phone to look at pictures of kittens and other stuff and not look "if you have something to hide"? Even when having nothing to hide, I would tell any woman to fuck off if she wanted to see my phone for the purpose of checking who I text. Like the quote in one of your podcasts, no one has the right to ask you where you have been. I could imagine that the OI from her seeing that you are, in fact, fucking other women kind of weighs up for her checking your phone, but it still doesn't excuse her prying. (I have never in my life had any girl ask to look at my phone, even when I was a monogamous beta cuck, so I'm guessing it's an American thing).
Your system has one big problem. You allow your girl(s) to fuck other men. Most men want a to feel some kind of pride of ownership of the woman they are with. It’s ingrained in our biology so that we don’t raise other another mans child.In my experience, following BDs system of nonmonogamy actually makes the odds of her being monogamous to you go up. Hypergamy doesn't care if you are monogamous towards her or not. If she finds a better man (or if she is young), she will cheat on you no matter what rules you try to pull over her head. If she percieves you as the most Alpha SOB to walk the earth, you controlling the frame and "letting her" see other men as well as you fucking other women only reaffirms your Alpha status. She might have seen strong, controlling military Alphas, but she's never seen an Alpha so confident that he has implied that she can go fuck whoever she wants, should she find a better suitor.
Marsupial 2017-08-25 00:01:12
Men who cheat get caught because the women they cheat with signal the fact to their wives/gfs. A woman's world is all about other women. The whole point of stealing another woman's man is that the other woman know about it. You can also look at it from an evo-psych POV. All a man has to do is impregnate. A woman needs to secure resources. Hence, they stake their claim and signal to other women that this man is now theirs. The upshot of all this is that women you chat with *will* leave hairclips, makeup brushes, perfume and makeup smears in places where the wife will find them. Not to mention scratches on the back. It's instinctive.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-08-25 01:14:20
This is exactly the argument we had in one of your older blog posts with Jack.Let me clarify my position on this issue as simply as I can: Monogamy = Level I Cheating = Level II Polyamory = Level III Level II is, most definitely, inferior to Level III, which is what BD is arguing here. Like BD, I'm on Level III and I do concede that it's way better than Level II. But BD has NOT addressed his position on Level II in relation to Level I. I say that Level II is superior to Level I. What do you say, BD? I, for one, respect cheaters way, way more than I respect those delusional souls who are on Level I. Cheaters, while imperfect and deeply flawed, are way more enlightened than the monogamous sheep. They are way more intuitive about human nature, more open and honest about biology and certain spiritual truths that I'd rather not get in to here, and way more creative and independent thinking than those shmucks on Level I who are towing the party line so that they can be a good cog in the machine of our controlling oligarchy. Cheaters just "get it" more than mono people. They have a superior understanding of life and the human condition, plus a more admirable instinct for freedom and rebellion. I'd much rather talk philosophy and matters pertaining to the human condition and the meaning of life with a cheater than with a mono sheep. When Blackdragon and others here speak out against cheating, they are comparing cheating to Level III. In that case, I have no argument. But when I compliment and encourage cheaters, I'm doing it in relation to Level I. So our disagreement is due to the fact that we are essentially having two separate discussions on two separate topics. I used to be on Level II (I was never on Level I). And while Level III is indeed far superior, I'd take Level II in a heartbeat if my only other choice was monogamy. Plus, Level II people are superior candidates for Level III transitioning than Level I people are. Sometimes, in order to get to the light, you must pass through the dark. Not everyone was born on Level III and when a person first takes the red pill, cheating is the sign of a worthy beginner. It should therefore be encouraged, especially amongst those who have no knowledge of, or frame of reference when it comes to, Level III. For many, cheating is a praise-worthy, albeit imperfect, attempt to break out of their cultural prison, and it should be applauded as an act of courage that the Level I people who prefer to wallow in their misery don't have. The only time cheating should be looked down upon is when it is contemplated in reference to Level III, which is what we are doing here today. And that's fine, I suppose. We can all sit on our high and mighty Level III thrones and look down on all those cheaters who are imperfectly struggling towards eventual sexual enlightenment. But I prefer compassion towards those who semi-get it in contrast to the depressed Level I people who don't get it at all. In short, whenever you meet a cheater, please encourage him/her in their cheating ways and recognize him/her as a beginner, or a less perfect version of you. There's nothing wrong with encouraging them towards a superior way (Level III), but they may not be ready for that yet. The spiritual journey is messy and those who are at least trying should be treated way more benevolently by us than those Level I people who think, for example, that sex before marriage is wrong and nothing but monogamy should be acceptable. Let's put cheating in perspective and realize that it is way better than being in active denial about who and what you really are.
Frater 2017-08-25 01:23:06
Been there, donne that. BD is right. Cheating isn't worth the trouble and won't make anyone happy. From my experience, I'll add that the cheater may feel very guilty, which spoils the fun of it too. It's not only fear. I know I will never cheat again because it made me feel bad and because I understand better now how much harmful cheating can be for everyone.
Freevoulus 2017-08-25 03:54:49
Hey, BD, what about escorts? Since they are professionals, and it is in their best interest to be as discreet as possible, most of the problems you described do not apply. At the very worst, minimal amount of phone/computer savvyness is required to hide the fact of hiring an escort once in a while. Thoughts?
Lyn 2017-08-25 05:49:48
To Jack's point... Monogamy level I- No cake so obviously you can't eat it. Very sad 🙁 Cheating level II- You have some cake but you can't eat it too. Polyamory level III- Truly having your cake and eating it too.
hey hey 2017-08-25 06:39:55
Jack there is no Level 2. You are either monogamous or you are not. Cheating is the poor man's non monogamy. Of course it is better to be non monogamous for your sexual needs, but not necessarily for your happiness(if you are doing it wrong). You don't have to cheat. You don't need to go through that from Level 1 to 3. If you are not ready for that transition without cheating, then you simply don't "get it". Red pill men don't get it if their thought process is like this. If you really get it, it means you know monogamy doesn't work so there is no point hiding like a little girl and sticking to an abusive relationship that forces you to lie and hide who you really are. Just to clarify I don't mean specifically you, I mean the cheating type of men. When you were cheating, you were not getting it. Just like the poor mono guy. You were dishonest because you were scared. I believe there are many men that transitioned to Level 3 from 1 without going through cheating. After all what is the point? Is it better to cheat, go through all that hell, which is ten fold than simply getting a divorce without cheating? Also there is no freedom or rebellion in cheating. It is still slavery. Rebellion is going to your mono woman and telling her "Look, I made some decisions and we need to stop this(or divorce). Not going to discuss this further. I made my own choices." Then go find some new women to fuck and months later when she'll contact you invite her over, fuck her and then tell her the the new information. That is rebellion and freedom. With cheating it means you don't have the balls to do this. It means you are scared that you are going to lose a source of sex. Is this Alpha? Where is the difference with the mono guy?
Deron 2017-08-25 07:32:48
You're assertion that cheating is more work is not necessarily correct. One of the lynchpins of your argument is that you are likely to get caught due to obsolute biological wiring that compels you to talk about it. However, the alternative (setting up a nonnonogamous relationship) goes against a lot of strong OBW -AND Societal Programming as well (as you discuss extensively in your books and articles), except in this case you have to battle your own wiring, and each girl's OBW and SP (and battling the girl's OBW and SP is likely to be an ongoing issue as you'll encounter it with each new girl). So, you are at best combating the same amount of OBW, but at worst, a greater amount of OBW+SP. Therefore, whether cheating is easier or not depends on which type of OBW is easier for you to supress. At the end of the day, it just comes down to having a system set up. You've obviously gone to great lengths to set up a system to engage in open and honest nonmonogamous relationships. Similarly, systems can be set up to engage in secret nonmonagamous relationships. Besides obvious things like knowing your technology and just having the willpower to not blab, here are some simple and straightforward ways to deal with your OBW: 1) brag about it to an online forum instead of real life buddies; 2) hire a therapist you can confide in (can be pretty cheap- under $30 and useful for other reasons too); 3) only see professional service providers (a perfect complement for someone that already has an emotional connection via a LTR, imo) as you probably wouldn't want to brag about those encounters. The other aspects of cheating, as you mentioned, e.g. phone, computer and payment logistics, etc., can similarly be systemized. In summary, what is easier comes down to which OBW is easier for you personally to deal with, as each style can be systemized (as well as ancillary factors such as your bankroll, personality, morals, etc.) Not to say the open/honest approach isn't great, just that the question of which is easier depends, and I wouldn't say it's as easily generalized as you've made it.
Deron 2017-08-25 08:04:32
^not as easily
Dude 2017-08-25 11:26:25
BD, your blog is a blessing and a curse for me. I discovered it about a month ago whilst in a depression about my marriage. Why depressed? Because after nearly two years of the red pill things have improved, but I'm still with a feminist and dominant woman who I am not all that much interested in fucking anymore. Especially when I have girls in their twenties giving me IOIs and have had several opportunities to cheat since taking the red pill. Reading your blog was like taking another red pill. It made me feel worse, but then it made me feel better because now I know what the deal is. I can either stay monogamous and wish I had a different life, or I can take a risk and put the non-monogamy path on the table. If I felt like my wife could improve I wouldn't consider it, but she is who she is - and after being beta so long I doubt it's possible for either of us to be really happy with the other. The risk for me is the blowing up of my family and losing my kids. I guess I'm at the point where I'm trying to decide if that happens, is it worth it? I don't know. Mid forties, life is short. Why suffer with a shrew? Thanks to your blog, I now know I'm the only one who can decide, the choice rests upon my shoulders....
Blackdragon 2017-08-25 11:41:49
I think you are underestimating how many women cheat.Not sure what I said to make you think that. I've said that women cheat on men a hell of a lot, and for men to expect women to not cheat is stupid.
And it DOESN’T matter if her husband/primary man at home is literally perfect.Correct. That's my point to guys like Anon, who think that if the man does certain things (make her cum a lot) then she won't cheat. Wrong. Human beings were never designed for sexual monogamy, and women are human beings too. I agree with all of your points.
I’m guessing you mean that she borrows your phone to look at pictures of kittens and other stuff and not look “if you have something to hide”?Haha nope. On the rare times she's asked to see my phone, she goes right to my texts with other women and reads them, which is perfectly cool with me. I have nothing to hide. She's not allowed to give me drama about anything she reads however, nor is she allowed to bombard me with a bunch of questions about it, and if she ever starts doing either of these things I will end the practice, but she's free to read whatever she wants.
Even when having nothing to hide, I would tell any woman to fuck off if she wanted to see my phone for the purpose of checking who I text. Like the quote in one of your podcasts, no one has the right to ask you where you have been.Correct, and I agree 100%. I would do the same. If a MLTR or FB, or even a new OLTR asked to see my phone, completely out of the blue, I'd laugh in her face and tel her to go pound sand. The situation is different with a long-term OLTR whom you plan on spending 10+ years with while living together. Under that one scenario, I offered to allow her to see my phone (she did not ask me; I offered; it was my idea) to create some level of transparency, show more commitment, to help reduce any angst, and to jack up my Outcome Independence and Alpha frame to show her these other women I was having sex with (and thus attraction). Under no other circumstances would I allow a woman to read the stuff in my phone (though if they sneaked a look while I was asleep or something, I still wouldn't care).
I could imagine that the OI from her seeing that you are, in fact, fucking other women kind of weighs up for her checking your phoneBingo.
but it still doesn’t excuse her pryingIt's not prying if it was my idea and I have no problem with it. It's disclosure, not prying.
(I have never in my life had any girl ask to look at my phone, even when I was a monogamous beta cuck, so I’m guessing it’s an American thing)They don't. Instead they sneak, and look at your phone when you're not in the room, or in the shower, or sleeping, or whatever. I'd bet $10,000 one of your women has done this to you without you knowing it.
In my experience, following BDs system of nonmonogamy actually makes the odds of her being monogamous to you go up. Hypergamy doesn’t care if you are monogamous towards her or not.Correct, at least in most cases.
Men who cheat get caught because the women they cheat with signal the fact to their wives/gfs. A woman’s world is all about other women. The whole point of stealing another woman’s man is that the other woman know about it.Yes, that happens a lot.
Level II is, most definitely, inferior to Level III, which is what BD is arguing here. Like BD, I’m on Level III and I do concede that it’s way better than Level II. But BD has NOT addressed his position on Level II in relation to Level I. I say that Level II is superior to Level I. What do you say, BD?True monogamy and cheating monogamy are both forms of neediness and pussy behavior. They both revolve around being terrified of not losing one particular woman, which is oneitis. They are both bad, in that they will both make a man unhappy at least eventually. Even though you say nonmonogamy is better than cheating, you seem to have great respect for cheaters, and I do not. A man who is monogamous should either dump the woman he's with so he can go have sex with whomever he wants like a real man, or he should sit down and tell her that he's going to start having discreet and safe sex with other women on the side, and if she leaves, she leaves. You're better off without her anyway. Lying to a woman and hiding shit from her because you're terrified she'll leave you is BETA BEHAVIOR, thus I do not encourage and and no, I don't think cheating is somehow superior to a man who is temporarily not having sex with anyone except one woman at the moment.
From my experience, I’ll add that the cheater may feel very guilty, which spoils the fun of it too. It’s not only fear.Correct. Cheating is stressful.
Blackdragon 2017-08-25 12:07:22
Hey, BD, what about escorts? Since they are professionals, and it is in their best interest to be as discreet as possible, most of the problems you described do not apply. At the very worst, minimal amount of phone/computer savvyness is required to hide the fact of hiring an escort once in a while. Thoughts?I've added objection #15 in the article above to address that.
One of the lynchpins of your argument is that you are likely to get caught due to obsolute biological wiring that compels you to talk about it. However, the alternative (setting up a nonnonogamous relationship) goes against a lot of strong OBW -AND Societal Programming as well (as you discuss extensively in your books and articles), except in this case you have to battle your own wiring, and each girl’s OBW and SP (and battling the girl’s OBW and SP is likely to be an ongoing issue as you’ll encounter it with each new girl).Correct, but the difference is that it only takes about three months (for most women) to overcome her SP and OBW. But it takes forever to cheat on your wife/girlfriend. Three months of work is less than forever work. Once again, we come full circle back to what I said in the article; nonmonogamy takes work, yes, but eventually the workload ends. With cheating, it never ends.
Besides obvious things like knowing your technology and just having the willpower to not blab, here are some simple and straightforward ways to deal with your OBW: 1) brag about it to an online forum instead of real life buddies; 2) hire a therapist you can confide in (can be pretty cheap- under $30 and useful for other reasons too); 3) only see professional service providers (a perfect complement for someone that already has an emotional connection via a LTR, imo) as you probably wouldn’t want to brag about those encounters. The other aspects of cheating, as you mentioned, e.g. phone, computer and payment logistics, etc., can similarly be systemized.I've added objection #15 and #16 in the article above to address that.
Deron 2017-08-25 17:38:13
Thanks for the response, but I don't buy this rebuttal, as explained below:
Correct, but the difference is that it only takes about three months (for most women) to overcome her SP and OBW. But it takes forever to cheat on your wife/girlfriend. Three months of work is less than forever work. Once again, we come full circle back to what I said in the article; non-monogamy takes work, yes, but eventually the workload ends. With cheating, it never ends.But it is three months with each girl. So, if you're adding/replacing 2-3 girls a year, then that's 6-9 months of work annually, ongoing.
1. That only eliminates one problem (the woman you’re sleeping with possibly telling others). That does not eliminate any of the other many problems I’ve described above. You’re still in the same boat.No, that eliminates many of the problems. It eliminates your OBW tendency to want to tell people (who brags about banging hookers?). It eliminates (or reduces to near zero) fear of getting caught and any stress that entails. Eliminates many of the "hiding" techniques (all you need is simply private mode of browser to find the hookers and a Google Voice account to set up the encounters).
2. Most men don’t like having sex with hookers. Many other men can’t afford the cost of regular hookers where they live (not everyone lives in Thailand). So even if you’re right (which you are not), that advice will only apply to a small percentage of men. Whereas all men in the Western world can follow my advice, if they want.If most men don't like having sex with hookers, why is it such a huge industry, despite being illegal in large markets like the U.S.? Also, doesn't need to be expensive. I know many instances of guys paying ~$400/month allowance on Seeking Arrangement. That 6.5% of your recommended $75k/year. Seems reasonable to take care of the "sex" life area. Yes, maintaining FBs and MTLs would be still cheaper, but also more time consuming (which you could be using to earn more money, if you want). But anyway, again, hookers was just a quick example of one way to combat the OBW.
Raise your hand if you personally know a man who has done literally all of that and kept it up for 5-10+ years without ever faltering on it, ever, and never got caught, ever. Yeah. Nobody. Now raise your hand if you personally know men who’ve had non-monogamous FB’s, MLTR’s, and yes, serious and consistent OLTR’s for 5-10+ years and have not had any major problems. I personally know many, and I’m aware of thousands, as I described in detail in Objection #3 right here.I mean, that sort of experience varies guy to guy. I know guys who have accomplished A. I don't know anyone that has accomplished B (not saying no one has- I just don't personally know of any). You seem to have the opposite experience. Pure conjecture here.
Men who cheat don’t sit down and develop advanced, complicated master plans like Lex Luthor and then follow them with robotic efficiency forever. Oh, some they think they do, but they don’t.You have written something like 6 books, thousands of pages, developing an "advanced, complicated master plan" on establishing open, honest non-monogamous relationships. Nothing wrong with that-it's great stuff. (But, how many guys have followed through with this plan? I believe you've claimed that around 5% of men are Alpha 2.0). I would say the planning needed to establish either an open non-monogamous relationship or secret non-monogamous is similar, and the follow-through rate is probably similar as well.
And even if you’re right (which you are not), that only eliminates the one problem of not getting caught. Your entire point proves my point about how much god damn work it is to cheat on a woman. You missed the point, which is that it's not a lot of "god damn work" once you systematized the process (like how it's not a lot of work to establish open non-monogamous relationships after you've put in the front-end work). Only fuck hookers? Hire a fucking therapist? Spend the rest of my life managing (and spending money on) multiple phones, checking amounts, email addresses, etc? Kill me dude. I’d rather use my system, which is far less work and stress. This is one of those “thank you for proving my point” excuses. So thank you.As I stated, hookers and therapists were provided only as easy, straightforward solutions to combat OBW. There are obviously a plethora of other techniques. It's good to use creativity and problem solving. Also, as I've stated many times, managing "multiple phones, checking accounts, email addresses, etc" is easy, once you've systematized. You prefer your system, in large part, because it is easier for you to suppress a certain kind of OBW+SP. For others it's easier to suppress another kind of OBW+SP. But, once you have a system, either way can be easy.
since soon it will be impossible to cheat on women precisely because of technology.This could be true. Helps to have outcome independence whether you're non-monogamous overtly or covertly. Good debate!
joelsuf 2017-08-25 18:03:39
Just look at military wives!Yup. I've been with more than a few chicks who have said that their bfs/husbands were in the military. They post that they are single on online dating websites and everything. Its insane. And a couple of my buddies are in the military and have just recently gotten married too, that's gonna suck for them.
position on Level II in relation to Level IFrom what I can interpret: Level I = Monogamous but denies that they (or their partner) are cheating. OR monogamous, aware of cheating partner, but doesn't care or put any effort into making the relationship open. Level II = Monogamous but is cheating. Level III = Open relationship. I'm with BD in that they are both monogamous and both have one itis. Maybe level II is doing something about it or whatever, but at the core its pretty much the same. Yes level II maybe isn't as needy or wimpy on the outside, but when it comes down to it, they are not much better tbh.
Anon 2017-08-26 07:54:33
BD, my reponse to your reponse is that you accidentally an entire letter.
Michal 2017-08-26 08:08:09
J.B. you need to move to area that has at least 2 milion people within 1h drive radious.
Kevin Velasco 2017-08-26 12:09:06
"for men to expect women to not cheat is stupid."Is it also stupid to expect women's actions to be congruent with their words? Your "Ignore What Women Say" article comes to mind...
F. 2017-08-26 12:17:11
As someone who is in favor of polyamory/nonmonogamy I'm surprised that BD left out the obvious argument against cheating - to lie or deceive is immoral. What happened to basic morality? Are we all sociopaths? If you could cheat without being caught, would it make it right? I don't think so.
2017HappyLifestyle 2017-08-26 22:49:51
That's why it's better to not get into a "legal non-monogamous relationship (traditional marriage)" to begin with. If it's not a "legal marriage," then the couple is "just dating" anyway and most people "date" other people even if they are in a "dating relationship." It usually takes around seven years to become a legal common law marriage. To be safer in a variety of ways it's better for married people not to cheat, but people who do cheat shouldn't have gotten into a closed marriage in the first place. Women who are open to a non-monogamous relationship tend to be more easy-going and more fun to be with. Even around a thousand years ago there were Kings who were excommunicated because they practiced non-monogamy while married, then to get around it other Kings had multiple wives and concubines, and even back then getting remarried two or three times was common. If someone has angry outbursts, or if you talk about a subject that is VERY personally important to you and they are silent with no response/don't even ask any questions about what you said/appear totally not interested about something that is very important to you (such as after months when you bring up the subject of having a non-monogamous relationship), then that anger or silence is a huge red flag that it's better for your own happiness to not be in a non-happy relationship with them. If a woman asked to see my computer or cell-phone, then that would be a red flag and I would not see her again after that (and it has nothing to do with trying to hide other women from her, as it's more of a disrespectful sign as if it's you obeying her compliance test, and that something might get messed up or unintentionally deleted). If I'm with a woman for four hours, then for the other six days and twenty hours of the week I don't care with who or what she does. In high school during tests whenever the teacher would leave the room almost everyone would cheat on the tests (many teachers knew the students would cheat and they intentionally left the room so that students would cheat to get higher scores so the teachers would keep their job/salaries). Monogamous marriage is like a strict diet, and strict diets don't work either for the long term, and most people cheat and gain the weight back. Instead it's more effective to have an open-diet and calorie/carb cycle every few days. If someone knows the percentage of cheating and divorces and they still put themselves into a non-monogamous marriage, then maybe a larger issue is their perception of reality.
2017HappyLifestyle 2017-08-26 23:13:08
^ That's why it's better to not get into a "legal MONOGAMOUS relationship (traditional marriage)" to begin with. ^ If someone knows the percentage of cheating and divorces and they still put themselves into a MONOGAMOUS marriage, then maybe a larger issue is their perception of reality.
David 2017-08-26 23:53:24
Off topic. Do you believe women are happier with kids? I am having a blast with younger women, partially beacause they are hotter to me, and partially because i feel like women in their thirties need to go find a serious dude and reproduce so they can have something to live for after forty. Middle age and up women with NO children are absolutley miserable
mrhoopfan 2017-08-27 02:25:37
Cheating sounds like it could be stressful as hell!! I've read that in non-monogamous relationships, poly people are happier than those in open relationships.....interesting, and if I practiced non-monogamy I'd lean the way of being polyamor-ish. In regards to OLTR's I have a hard time thinking after having sex with another dude more than several times, the woman will not have emotional feelings, good chance that NRE will be activated with new guy, especially if she is past that stage of the relatiosnhip with her primary man. In OLTRs there also seems to be alot of rules as well, like the chick can bang other dudes but not fall for him, must use protection, etc... Form of control as well imo.......I mean is a chick really going to give another guy head with a condom on?? At the end of the day people have to do what works for them, those on the feeling side of the personality spectrum will have different relationship needs than those on the thinking side of the spectrum. I think some of this stuff with acronyms and spreadsheets over complicates matters.... If you want an "unconventional" dating lifestyle tell women you're dating after awhile that you want to remain single/free to connect with others at this time of your life and be willing to let her go if she desires an exclusive mate.....She'll respect you for your honesty and whether she bounces on you or not that attraction for you will be there for awhile. If she stays, don't put any "rules" on her either. If you really like a chick desiring exclusivity and want to stay with her, maybe try out a short term-monogamous relationship then evaluate together after every 2-4 months whether you both want to continue. Sexuality does get pretty complex when you throw in societal programming. Nice discourse in the BDB comment sections.
Blackdragon 2017-08-27 11:35:35
But it is three months with each girl. So, if you’re adding/replacing 2-3 girls a year, then that’s 6-9 months of work annually, ongoing.Correction, it's three months per MLTR. Usually FB's do not require anything near three months. And even if was 3 months for every girl, it's still less work than your system.
It eliminates your OBW tendency to want to tell people (who brags about banging hookers?)Incorrect. I have heard numerous "monogamous" men brag about banging hookers.
It eliminates (or reduces to near zero) fear of getting caught and any stress that entails.What? Incorrect again. You still have all the risks and stresses of getting caught if you fuck hookers vs non-hooker FB's. If you're having sex with a full-on girlfriend on the side, then I agree that's more risky, but most men aren't going to do that.
Eliminates many of the “hiding” techniquesAgain, no it doesn't. You still have to hide it from your girlfriend/wife, particularly if it's something you're doing regularly. I honestly don't know what you're smoking. Your arguments aren't making any sense. If you continue this I'll have to stop responding to you.
If most men don’t like having sex with hookers, why is it such a huge industry, despite being illegal in large markets like the U.S.?Because of basic math. There are 120 million men in the US. If just 3% spend an average of just $400 per month on hookers (your example number), that's $1.7 trillion annually spent on hookers. A huge industry, but only a small percentage of men.
Also, doesn’t need to be expensive. I know many instances of guys paying ~$400/month allowance on Seeking Arrangement.That's expensive. The mean annual income of the typical US man is around $42K before taxes, far below the ability to spend $400 a month on sex given the typical American lifestyle and taxes. Once again, only a smaller percentage of men can afford the lifestyle you're recommending. It sounds like you can, and I certainly can, but most men don't have the financial resources you and I have. If you want to convince people of your viewpoint, you need to make arguments based on empirical, verifiable facts, rather than arguments based on your feelings that can be easily be countered by 30 second Google search. And of course I recommend men make $75K, but as you already pointed out, most men reading my stuff aren't going to do this. Regarding the man does follow my advice and gets his income up to $75K per year, I've already addressed that in great detail here and here.
I know guys who have accomplished A.I very much doubt it. I didn't say "raise your hand if you know someone who is cheating on his wife and is currently getting away with it." My statement was much more specific.
I don’t know anyone that has accomplished BSure, because they're scared to tell you, as I described here.
You have written something like 6 books, thousands of pages, developing an “advanced, complicated master plan” on establishing open, honest non-monogamous relationships.Incorrect. I have written two books on that subject, nor have I ever said my system is advanced nor complicated.
You prefer your system, in large part, because it is easier for you to suppress a certain kind of OBW+SP. For others it’s easier to suppress another kind of OBW+SP.But my suppression doesn't cause life-long work and stress. Yours does. If your argument is that your magical and theoretical system doesn't create as much work and stress as the typical guy cheating on his wife, then I agree with you. If you're saying it brings it down to the level of FB/MLTR/OLTR nonmonogamy, you're incorrect for all the reasons I've stated above, and you're just backwards-rationalizing the fact that you just don't want the possibility of your wife fucking another guy (even though she still might, because women cheat too). Not wanting your wife to fuck another guy while you're fucking other women is understandable, but it doesn't make my point wrong.
Blackdragon 2017-08-27 13:28:42
Yup. I’ve been with more than a few chicks who have said that their bfs/husbands were in the military.We all have.
They post that they are single on online dating websites and everything. Its insane.Yep. That's what they do.
BD, my reponse to your reponse is that you accidentally an entire letter.I don't understand.
Is it also stupid to expect women’s actions to be congruent with their words? Your “Ignore What Women Say” article comes to mind…Correct, at least for the long-term. Women are biologically wired to change their minds.
As someone who is in favor of polyamory/nonmonogamy I’m surprised that BD left out the obvious argument against cheating – to lie or deceive is immoral. What happened to basic morality? Are we all sociopaths? If you could cheat without being caught, would it make it right? I don’t think so.I don't discuss morality, beyond the development of a personal Code that I discuss in my book, since morality is subjective and the specifics differ from person to person. Notice that the very first comment in this thread is actually thanking me for not talking about morality. I think it's immoral to cheat on a woman, but that's just my personal opinion, nothing more. If you have the same opinion, that's fine, but there are many readers, including commenters in this thread, who would completely disagree. Therefore, if I made big right-wing post about how it's "immoral" or "wrong" to cheat on your wife, the resulting conversation would devolve to my opinion vs other options, and those aren't conversations I think are productive. I instead choose to argue based on facts, as I am here, rather than opinions.
Even around a thousand years ago there were Kings who were excommunicated because they practiced non-monogamy while married, then to get around it other Kings had multiple wives and concubines, and even back then getting remarried two or three times was common.Correct!
Do you believe women are happier with kids?No. And the research agrees with me. Read this and this.
Middle age and up women with NO children are absolutely miserableThat is the exact opposite of my observations, thus I would need to see real data/research that supports this to agree with it.
I’ve read that in non-monogamous relationships, poly people are happier than those in open relationships.Correct. Happiness is not the goal of strict sexual monogamy and never was.
In regards to OLTR’s I have a hard time thinking after having sex with another dude more than several times, the woman will not have emotional feelings, good chance that NRE will be activated with new guy, especially if she is past that stage of the relatiosnhip with her primary man.I addressed that in the comment thread here. Tldr; it doesn't happen in properly managed OLTR's, only in OLTR's where the man allows the woman to actually "date" and "spend time with" her side-men, which, of course, is a terrible idea and bound to cause problems.
Anon 2017-08-27 15:27:37
BD, Haha, I expected a somewhat cynical response from you, but your response was also filled with needless (read: incorrect) assumptions and saltiness. I felt like I was pretty clear what my argument was, but let me re-state it in case it wasn't clear: The argument that I am making is that you do not have evidence that there is a system where a live-in OLTR can and will always stay with you for as long as you want them to while still being able to sleep with other women. You've noted this in the post you've linked as well (and a post that I've already read before). What I am stating is that this could potentially be considered a disadvantage compared to "cheating." With cheating, you could potentially keep a relationship with a specific woman going for an indefinite period of time with your live-in significant other. There is no "proof of concept" for an indefinite live-in OLTR. You have provided "anecdotal" evidence of other guys supposedly doing this. And then you provided a source to a Wikipedia article that provides some statistical evidence attempting to support it. The problem with this is that I'm not interested in anecdotal evidence or statistics that cannot provide a clear "how-to" system that can be replicated. Like you, I am a "systems" thinker who thinks in terms of "how can I create a repeatable system that can be replicated for anyone?" If these guys can't explain to me how they are doing it, then the data provided is useless. I either (a) cannot trust it or (b) cannot use it because there is no system behind it, and even if the anecdotal evidence is true, they might be in an "outlier" scenario that is not worth including (and thus their "system" is not easily replicated or repeatable for other guys). I am not attacking your system. Your system is fantastic, and it works well. I've instructed other guys on how to use it. I probably know your own system just as well as you do at this point (at least up until the point where it becomes a live-in OLTR). I am pro non-monogamy. I am also pro monogamy. I see these as "options" for guys -- not a "must do" or "must not do." I determine whether or not a given system is viable for a guy depending on what his wants and needs are, and then I help him achieve it if he desires it. As for your assumptions, they are very off the mark. Currently I am engaged in one-sided monogamy (you can Google it and you might find a few things about it, but just like you've mentioned in the article you linked me to in your reply, this type of relationship strategy must be kept extremely low-key and discreet for it to succeed -- just like any other non-monogamy strategy). So when you say stuff like this:
"If you like working in your relationship, that’s great. But don’t pretend it makes you happy as compared to a man who doesn’t have to worry about any of this shit."...it doesn't really resonate at all with me. I have systems in place for one-sided monogamy that allow me to be relatively happy without having to work much at all. Do you complain about having to brush your teeth in the morning? Or do you complain about having to flush after using the toilet? Neither do I. My personal system makes it about as easy as mundane tasks like those. 🙂
"Live in OLTR’s always fail after a few years? That’s a bold claim; please show the scientific data indicating this."This at least gets to the crux of my point! Instead, I'll ask you this: please show me empirical evidence of a system where live-in OLTRs never (or at least rarely) fail after a set period of time. If you can provide me with a system for this, then we're game! (Of course, I believe you're actually testing this RIGHT now with Pink Firefly. But since it's in the "testing" phase, you can't really claim it works yet, correct?)
Firefly and I won’t prove anything to anyone, regardless of what happens to us. To say it one last time, my success or failure with a live-in OLTR does not indicate the viability of this system when millions of men are already doing it. To be fair, that’s even if I succeed at it massively. If I do, you’ll have pro-cheater and pro-monogamy men saying, “So what? That doesn’t mean anything! Blackdragon is just one guy.”Of course. Although I trust your current system enough to put heavier weight on your personal evidence over the personal evidence of others -- enough that I'd be willing to try it myself to come to my own conclusions about it based on your pending success with Pink Firefly. I feel confident that I could replicate it if it's a system that is truly replicable. And to address the random stuff:
Incorrect. If that were true, you could simply just make your wife/girlfriend cum all the time and have a high lifetime monogamy success rate. Millions of men would be doing that right now and making it work, and divorce rates would drop like a stone. Yet, the horrible failure rates of monogamy, particularly among PUA’s / manosphere guys who understand how important orgasms are in a relationship, demonstrate otherwise. As I’ve said many times, if there were a repeatable and simple “secret” guaranteed or (near guaranteed) to making long-term monogamy work, someone would have already discovered it a very long time ago and would a billionaire by now selling it.Come on, BD! You're a smart guy with a ton of experience in both business and marketing, as well as a deep understanding of Societal Programming. You should know exactly why me revealing this golden nugget of information isn't as big a deal as the average person might think it would be: Societal Programming won't allow this to ever stick. You're even aware yourself of how important it is to make a girl cum every time you see her in your own system, correct? Have you ever thought about what would happen if you did that in monogamy? Have you ever tried that? I'm guessing you haven't because you haven't done monogamy in a very long time -- the last time you did it was probably long before you discovered how critical it is to make a girl cum, and cum often. I'd be willing to take a huge gamble and say you did not implement this regularly with your previous wife.
Just be honest. Instead of these weird arguments, just say it. Just say, “I do not want my wife fucking other women, so I cheat on her, even though it kinda sucks.”You're right: I actually don't want my girl (not wife -- I'm not married: I am against legal marriage) fucking other guys, since that is a viable option for me. It's one of the advantages of my personal system. Why share if I don't need to? 🙂
gary 2017-08-27 23:43:48
unfortunately everything black dragon says is 100 percent true . i know from experience
JEB 2017-08-28 01:14:19
The situation is different with a long-term OLTR whom you plan on spending 10+ years with while living together. Under that one scenario, I offered to allow her to see my phone (she did not ask me; I offered; it was my idea) to create some level of transparency, show more commitment, to help reduce any angst, and to jack up my Outcome Independence and Alpha frame to show her these other women I was having sex with (and thus attraction).When put in that perspective, it makes a lot more sense - As a younger guy who doesn't plan on long-term relationships (even polyamorous ones) the situation is a lot different. For a relationship like yours, I could see why PF would also sleep a lot better knowing that your other sexual relationships are purely physical. Even in noncommited MLTR relationships, my experience tells me that your "main" girl gets a lot of pleasure in knowing that she is, in fact, your primary romantic interest.
Blackdragon 2017-08-28 10:36:56
Anon - You're simply repeating yourself now so we're at the agree-to-disagree stage. I've presented lots of evidence of live-in, long-term OLTR's working without me doing them, and I've already explained, many times, why there are no actual statistics on this (yet). You claim I have no system, then proceed to engage in a relationship type where there literally is no system. (One-sided monogamy? Are you kidding me? You actually expect that to work for 10 years to a Western woman? Don't answer that; I already know the answer.) I never said cheating wasn't an option for men. Of course it is. As I said in the article, not once but twice, that cheating is not good option for men seeking long-term happiness. Alpha 1.0's who consider OBW or control as higher values than long-term happiness are more than welcome to promise monogamy and then cheat. I honestly wish you the best in your one-sided monogamy marriage, even though your odds of it lasting even 10 years in that state are extremely low. (And yes, lower than mine with PF in an OLTR marriage.)
When put in that perspective, it makes a lot more sense – As a younger guy who doesn’t plan on long-term relationships (even polyamorous ones) the situation is a lot different. For a relationship like yours, I could see why PF would also sleep a lot better knowing that your other sexual relationships are purely physical. Even in noncommited MLTR relationships, my experience tells me that your “main” girl gets a lot of pleasure in knowing that she is, in fact, your primary romantic interest.Correct. As I describe in my open relationships book, this is called Phase Four - The Queen of the Hill phase, where an MLTR gently pushes to become your "best girl" rather than pushing for monogamy.
Anon 2017-08-29 08:48:19
I don’t understandLet me repond once again: you accidentally the letter "s" from the title of thi blog pot.
Blackdragon 2017-08-29 12:09:39
Let me repond once again: you accidentally the letter “s” from the title of thi blog pot.You're the only one experiencing that problem. I suggest you check your browser or device. Also, guys, we now have multiple guys using the name "Anon" on this blog, so I strongly suggest you "Anon" guys pick actual names we can use to identify you with so things don't get confusing. Thanks.
Anon 2017-08-29 12:43:14
But that’s the entire point. I’d like my comments to be judged based on their content only. But I’ll pick some name if you insist. And the word "responses" is still miss-sspelt.
Blackdragon 2017-08-29 13:26:32
But that’s the entire point. I’d like my comments to be judged based on their content only.Huh? They are. Your comments aren't being filtered in any way here.
But I’ll pick some name if you insist.I don't insist. I said I strongly suggest.
And the word “responses” is still miss-sspelt.Fixed. I couldn't tell what you were saying in your previous comments because you were missing so many letters.
E batches 2017-08-29 14:44:16
your replies about women leaving (in the comments) ven if you're perfect were huge. A part of me was thinking I'm some sort of pessimist... as well as the context of yoou letting her go through your phone
nick 2017-08-29 20:32:27
The most natural relationship structure is multiple girlfriends who are exclusive to you, and you can also freely pickup new casual women when you please. Nonmongomy structure works best if the girls you see beyond 1-2 times are exclusive to you but they themselves cannot see other men. All girlfriends know about each other and know you pick up new girls as you please, but not all new girls become your girlfriend. In reality very few guys have the frame, game or value prop to pull this off. Hence why most guys will settle for one of the lower tier relationship structures.
Blackdragon 2017-08-29 21:09:55
In reality very few guys have the frame, game or value prop to pull this off. Hence why most guys will settle for one of the lower tier relationship structures.No, the problem is what you just described is possible, but isn't long-term sustainable in the Western world, and is thus isn't workable unless all you want are a long string of short-term serial relationships. Some men will be fine with that, but many will not.
nick 2017-08-29 21:33:31
Why do you believe it isn't long term sustainable? You state that this isn't long term sustainable in the western world, which seems to suggest that you believe it would be if there wasn't the social conditioning and societal structures of the west. Women's minds are malleable if they can be conditioned by western society then they can also be reversed back their natural state. Maybe you have a post that expands on this?
Blackdragon 2017-08-29 21:57:05
Why do you believe it isn’t long term sustainable?Because I've literally never seen, or even heard of in any verifiable way, any man in the West sustain this kind of relationship longer than about 10 months or so (with the exception of Mormon polygamy), and I've seen (and heard of) many men attempting it.
You state that this isn’t long term sustainable in the western world, which seems to suggest that you believe it would be if there wasn’t the social conditioning and societal structures of the west.Correct. Guys in in certain parts of the Muslim world and African world have pulled this off. But that's not the West (nor are those guys very happy either; lots of drama in these kinds of relationships).
Women’s minds are malleable if they can be conditioned by western society then they can also be reversed back their natural state.That's just your own fantasy and guy-Disney talking, not logic or facts. Show me at least 10 men have done this in the Western world with a Western woman for well longer than 10 months, then you've got something. Until then, you're just fantasizing. I live in the real world.
Maybe you have a post that expands on this?Not really. I'll add it to the list for something to discuss in the future.
hey hey 2017-08-30 01:34:10
Sometimes I wonder when people pull nightmarish structures out of their asses and claim "it's the best!". I cannot even comprehend why a man would want such a structure. Do these people really believe women are inflatable dolls that they can do whatever they want with, without giving them nightmare back? And this is the most natural? Please try it nick and tell us about the natural relationship result. Have 3 women who you will see at least 2 days per week each, then see few more once every 10 days each, tell us how this goes for you. I'm sure women will play along with it without problem for many years.
Gil Galad 2017-08-30 06:13:52
The most natural relationship structure is multiple girlfriends who are exclusive to you, and you can also freely pickup new casual women when you please.Natural for who ? If you're pulling the "natural order of things" argument, you're invoking evolutionary biology. And biology dictates that animals will sexually behave in the way that will best spread their genes. Multiple girlfriends that are faithful to you is the "natural" scenario that is optimal for the man, because he spreads more genes (biology doesn't know we have condoms today) and prevents his work from being hijacked by another man who mates with his women. From the POV of the woman, however, it is far from optimal. The "natural" holy grail for a women is to find a balance between "don't lose your provider (or replace him fast) and "don't lose an opportunity to get another man's sperm"; bonus points if she can increase the odds of keeping her provider invested in her offspring only, by prevent him from fucking other women. The idea that there is a natural order that is optimal for both sexes is an illusion; you can find one that is "kinda good for both sexes" (probably BD's system), but there is no long lost system "intended by nature" that was making everyone happy. Biology doesn't want you to be happy, you have to hack it, not obey it. Deal with it.
Cypher 2017-08-30 18:11:11
Sorry, but this whole thing is just YOUR lifestyle crashing with other lifestyles. Being incongruent has nothing to do with being alpha or beta. Big dawgs play to win. If i get more from lying, then im still the one getting more. It all depends on how little energy you spend on keeping it a secret. If you dont do that much to cover it up and dont really care that much if she finds out and breaks up, then whats the problem? I can understand it if youre talking about the average joe, trying to keep a tight family together while living a double life. my tip for everyone is to keep dating like crazy and get into as many serious relationships as possible and just get caught when you get caught. I prefer sleeping with a girl 20-25 times a week for a few months than her dropping by once a week. And thats just one of them. Many of them come back anyways. Its not even drama if you dont care about it. Nothing of what im saying matters here anyways, and this post wont affect my lifestyle. Just giving my own 2 cents on it.
Blackdragon 2017-08-30 18:41:34
If i get more from lying, then im still the one getting more.Not if doing so makes you less happy in the long-term. And you don't need to lie to have sex with multiple hot women. I don't.
It all depends on how little energy you spend on keeping it a secret. If you dont do that much to cover it up and dont really care that much if she finds out and breaks up, then whats the problem?Already addressed in item #9 in the article above.
my tip for everyone is to keep dating like crazy and get into as many serious relationships as possible and just get caught when you get caught.That advice only applies to men who don't mind regular drama and conflict in their woman life. If that's you, go for it! I walk a different path.
hey hey 2017-08-30 23:14:42
my tip for everyone is to keep dating like crazy and get into as many serious relationships as possible and just get caught when you get caught. I prefer sleeping with a girl 20-25 times a week for a few months than her dropping by once a week. And thats just one of them. Many of them come back anyways.You forget two major issues. Time and bonding. If you have a lot of time in your hands and you don't mind bonding then maybe that'll work(for some time). This can work for younger guys AND younger women. Few women will return back to you if you act monogamous and find out that you are lying and cheating(unless they are young or women with little options). Your lifestyle is far too much work and eventually it will come back to bite you when you'll want to bond. Maybe that works for you for now because you have plenty of time in your hands, but for most people this won't work. Imagine working hard to reach goals, then seeing 2-3 women many times over a week, then date new women over a week. It seems that: a) This is some of your fantasy scenarios, or b) You have nothing else going in your life and most of your time is all about chicks.
Mr. J. 2017-08-31 08:13:22
To Blackdragon, I have been reading your blog for years and I own the Unchained Man (good book) and I'm in an interesting predicament that I'd love to have your opinion on, if you have a minute, please. I'll keep it brief. Recent articles as well as this one really, really sparked my interest - especially with Excuse #2 listed above. I'm 27 years old, American living in Japan. Been here for almost 3 years dating Japanese girls. Currently, I have 2 MLTRs and 1 FB that I met through daygame. I've been avoiding all the boyfriend behaviors you've listed in other articles. We just hang out once-a-week or once every two weeks. They never text me, I never text them except for date meet-up logistics. Rarely have we ever hung out for longer than 12 hours. They sometimes sleep over. Never met their family or friends. No extravagent dates. At restaurants, they pay for everything or we split 50:50. No big trips that go beyond one night, if we even do a trip at all. No gifts - except holidays. Very rarely ever give lovey-dovey compliments - if I do, it's a mix of hot-and-cold. Etc... Things are going well. I'm quite happy with my life. The Problem: I've never truly, honestly, had "The Talk" with any of the MLTR girls. I never told them I fuck other girls. Maybe I just never knew when the right time was, if at all. Thus, maybe I can't even call them MLTRs then. Yes, I know I probably fucked it up. Because I didn't have The Talk, I feel like I'm lying to them. Am I? Or am I doing everything fine? Both have confessed that they "love me". Getting me to confess that I even "like" them, took a lot of effort out of them. Funny stories for another time, though. We never talk about our future together. We just enjoy each date together in the present moment. Girl #1, 20yrs old, I've dated her for a year and a half I told her that we're just dating and that's it. She's never brought up the relationship question ever again. Soft nexted her once, and she's been super wonderful since. Thank you for teaching me soft nexting. I can tell she's trying in little ways here and there to get upgraded to more girlfriend-like status b/c of peer pressure, but I don't want it. Girl #2, 23yrs old, I've dated her for almost a year now. She's been drama-free. Never asked any questions about the relationship ever. Never tries to push me for more commitment and more things. Just quiet, happy, peaceful girl who enjoys spending time both with and without me. I really like, respect, and care for these girls. But, if I had to lose them, I'd be sad, I'll never forget them, but I'll just have to go back out there again and take it as a lesson learned. So, should I just admit to them that I see other girls? Or is it already implied by how things are going? Any advice at all would be appreciated. Thank you again for your time. - J.
Blackdragon 2017-08-31 10:48:55
I’ll keep it brief.You didn't, so I just scanned your too-long comment. Based on what I think you said based on my scan, it's perfectly fine if you haven't had The Talk yet. The Talk isn't required if everything is going great. It's only required if a woman eventually starts pestering you for it and it's been at least 3-5 months into the relationship. If they haven't done this, great, forget about The Talk and enjoy yourself. (Though it may be coming whether your realize it or not.)
Mr. J. 2017-08-31 14:04:04
You didn’t [keep it brief], so I just scanned your too-long comment. Based on what I think you said based on my scan, it’s perfectly fine if you haven’t had The Talk yet. The Talk isn’t required if everything is going great. It’s only required if a woman eventually starts pestering you for it and it’s been at least 3-5 months into the relationship. If they haven’t done this, great, forget about The Talk and enjoy yourself. (Though it may be coming whether your realize it or not.)Once I posted it, I instantly realized that I could've done a better job of simplifying my comment. I appologize for that. But thank you very much for your quick response. You answered my question very well.
Freedom 2017-08-31 22:03:49
BD, you wrote, “cheating is beta… you think she won’t leave you if you just lie and cheat on her (which is wrong, since you’ll eventually get caught)… you cheat instead of being nonmonogamous because you’re a fucking pussy and you have oneitis.” I agree that having relationships with women who explicitly understand that you are not monogamous has big advantages. The main one is reducing drama to non-existent or bare minimum levels. It also reduces break up dramas to LSNFTEs, or simply drifting apart, or getting bored of a girl. It obviously reduces your reliance on one girl alone, and improves happiness and confidence. However, to say that cheating is beta, and a symptom of oneitis, is a contradiction, since you have written about control freak Alpha 1.0’s cheating on their LTRs. If that is true, then real monogamy AND “monogamy” with cheating are BOTH symptoms of oneitis. It seems you have made the parameters of oneitis so broad, that ONLY people following your system do NOT have oneitis. It’s a bit of a stretch, don’t you think? Can you clarify? By that logic, one could argue that even a man with an OLTR girl who mothers his children has developed oneitis as well, since he chose that one “special” girl to be the mother. It seems the term is often being thrown around a bit too much, and its definition is becoming too broad!
Blackdragon 2017-08-31 22:29:27
However, to say that cheating is beta, and a symptom of oneitis, is a contradiction, since you have written about control freak Alpha 1.0’s cheating on their LTRs. If that is true, then real monogamy AND “monogamy” with cheating are BOTH symptoms of oneitis. It seems you have made the parameters of oneitis so broad, that ONLY people following your system do NOT have oneitis. It’s a bit of a stretch, don’t you think? Can you clarify?Yes I can. I've always been very clear about this and my stance on oneitis has never changed. Go read my definition of oneitis in my glossary. It says: Oneitis – 1. A set of actions and behaviors where a man does things in order to get one particular girl or “not lose” one particular girl, at the expense of pursuing other girls and/or at the expense of his own freedom and happiness. 2. Any non-minor compromise a man makes to a woman (either to “get her” or to “not lose her”) that will immediately or eventually restrict his freedom or damage his happiness. Example: A man promising to always pick up his socks or keep the TV at a certain volume is not necessarily oneitis, but a man with a healthy sex drive promising to never get sexual with any other woman is certainly oneitis as defined here, since eventually that promise will make him less free and less happy. Under that definition, promising a monogamy to a woman (regardless of if you're cheating on her or not) because you suspect that if you don't, she'll leave, is oneitis. At least to some degree. Men hate monogamy, so the only reason most men agree give up other women (or pretend to do so) is so the woman sitting in front of him won't leave him. That's oneitis. So yes, monogamy equals oneitis, at least in the vast majority of cases. I know that probably doesn't feel very good to hear, but rationally and objectively try to refute what I just said. The only way monogamy would not be oneitis is if you are an extremely low-sex-drive man and don't really like or need sex. Under such a condition, you would not be giving up anything, therefore promising a woman monogamy under that condition wouldn't be oneitis. But obviously that's very rare (at least for men under age 60 or so).
By that logic, one could argue that even a man with an OLTR girl who mothers his children has developed oneitis as well, since he chose that one “special” girl to be the mother.That would indeed be oneitis if he had kids with her because she wanted kids, he didn't or didn't care one way or the other, and he had the kids primarily to shut her up about it and to keep her. Lots of married Alphas do this, particularly in second marriages (Trump clearly did it with Melania) and yes, that's oneitis. If he really wanted kids before he ever met her, it would not be oneitis to have kids with her, because he wouldn't be giving up something he wanted in order to continue to have her in his life.
Freedom 2017-09-01 00:01:33
"yes, monogamy equals oneitis, at least in the vast majority of cases. I know that probably doesn’t feel very good to hear, but rationally and objectively try to refute what I just said." BD, thank you for the clarification. I agree that the vast majority of monogamous relationships for men, whether genuine or not, are based on oneitis. As you stated, there can be exceptions to this rule. I believe it is helpful to not always deal with absolute black and white classifications. There is room for some grey area sometimes. Similarly, 70% of marriages end in divorce, as you often cite, but 30% are still successful. Some men will take that risk and be successful. Although, the trend seems to be climbing in the wrong direction, as the gender dynamics of the Western world continue to deteriorate and flip backwards at an accelerated pace. I jokingly ask, how long before the gender roles completely reverse, and women pursue men to secure as house-husbands? Alphas, especially 2.0s, seem like an endangered species, becoming more rare as years go by. I believe most men of past decades (1950s as you often cite) and even past centuries, had "monogamous" relationships with plenty of cheating to satisfy their sex drives. The difference in today's era is that girls are greatly empowered and more economically independent. You cover these facts excellently in your article here. No more single breadwinner households or housewives. At the same time, society teaches us that being masculine is bad. Also, in urban or corporate environments, a man has to deal with his natural urges constantly as he lays eyes on several visually stimulating women on a daily basis. Society is hyper-sexualized, but men are still painted as the bad guys because of the "patriarchy" and "privilege." Now women hate monogamy, preferring serial monogamy as you clearly stated here, getting bored, and withholding sex, causing men to hate the new version as well. I have read many of your articles. And I continue to study them because they have so much valuable info, for free. It is a challenge to absorb and internalize so much quality info. I find particular interest in your observations on the bigger picture like here. And how there are specific solutions to the problems facing marriage and society today, but that the masses of men in our country refuse to implement them (I cannot seem to locate that exact article at the moment. IIRC, the solution included boycotting traditional marriage for several years to abolish the female bias via divorce settlements and alimony, in favor of your contractual marriage model). Keep up the great work! I plan to buy all your books in the near future. Finally, I'm curious to know if you would entertain an article on the gigolo lifestyle, if you have any knowledge or insights in that area.
Freedom 2017-09-01 00:42:11
I meant to link to this article as the first one cited above. Nevertheless, your observations, on how society and gender dynamics transformed so drastically over recent decades, as well as current trends, and your predictions for the near future, all seem rock solid and difficult to refute. Keep up the excellent writing!
hey hey 2017-09-01 03:11:23
but 30% are still successful. Some men will take that risk and be successful.30% are not successful. Just because they stay together and are not divorcing doesn't make their marriage successful. A successful mono marriage would be forever with at least mid drama with regular sex(about 3-5 times per week at least) AND without cheating from any side. That's a fantasy. This leaves you with about 5-10% of low sex drive people, even less % with mid drama in their relationship. This is what successful is in reality and the best you can hope for if you expect forever together. Because if you consider banging your wife(even if she enjoys it) forever once every month(the least) as a success, then you don't have a clear definition of what success means. Also cheating does not make the marriage a success. The result is failure because your action brought an end to the mono deal of the marriage without consent from the other party AND drama along the road. Even if it doesn't end in divorce. A woman who stays with you after such a scenario is either low market value with very few options or you take care of her that much that she does see far worse life after you. Even if you agree with your mono wife to open the marriage after a cheating the chaos that preceded that is not worth it. And the bad blood will always linger on. Unless you know how to do this smoothly. That is why people who aknlowedge that, yet take the risk to make a marriage successful either succumb in a fantasy or are just being stupid.
Blackdragon 2017-09-01 10:25:15
I believe it is helpful to not always deal with absolute black and white classifications. There is room for some grey area sometimes.I addressed that here.
Similarly, 70% of marriages end in divorce, as you often cite, but 30% are still successful. Some men will take that risk and be successful.What hey hey said. Lack of a divorce does not indicate success in a marriage. You also have cheating and shitty eternal marriages. That's why I say the real success rate of marriage is not 30%, but around 12%.
I jokingly ask, how long before the gender roles completely reverse, and women pursue men to secure as house-husbands?Yes, that may happen, and may happen in our lifetimes. Not that I care.
Alphas, especially 2.0s, seem like an endangered species, becoming more rare as years go by.Absolutely. This is a great thing for Alpha 2.0's! As I've said, I'm only interested in helping the top 10% of men, not all men. Most men would rather just go down with the ship, so let them.
how there are specific solutions to the problems facing marriage and society today, but that the masses of men in our country refuse to implement them (I cannot seem to locate that exact article at the moment. IIRC, the solution included boycotting traditional marriage for several years to abolish the female bias via divorce settlements and alimony, in favor of your contractual marriage model).Correct, to some degree. If 30-40% of men over the age of 30 simply said no to all marriage at all times no matter what, and cited things like alimony as the reason, alimony would be repealed within a month... by women. But men will never do that, so it's irrelevant. However, soon even that won't fix it, as the welfare state continues to expand and replace husbands. Women would just say, "Fine. I don't need you. I'll just go on welfare / food stamps / subsidized housing / single payer health care / etc." The Western world is fucked; it's time to get out, either financially/logistically (Alpha 2.0 lifestyle) or literally (moving out of the country / five flags). It cannot be fixed at this point.
Keep up the great work! I plan to buy all your books in the near future.I'm very glad I could help.
Finally, I’m curious to know if you would entertain an article on the gigolo lifestyle, if you have any knowledge or insights in that area.I have none, other than I can think of much better and easier ways of making money.
Field Trip 2017-09-12 10:53:42
Appreciate your lack of moralizing here. But here's my 2 cents. The mere existence of this lively debate and back and forth here indicates that there are two schools of thought depending on individual preference. I won't go into any of the objections and your eloquent responses, but I will say this. Be careful of how you give prescriptive advice because you are in no position to evaluate the good or happiness of another. You have good material here. And I agree with many things you say, but you can only honestly say that your way is objectively better for you.
Blackdragon 2017-09-12 12:16:44
The mere existence of this lively debate and back and forth here indicates that there are two schools of thought depending on individual preference.Correct, and I've said that several times, both in the article and the comments. There are men who seek long-term consistent happiness, and those who do not. You should make your choices accordingly.
Be careful of how you give prescriptive advice because you are in no position to evaluate the good or happiness of another.The good of another, correct. But the happiness of another, yes I am and yes I can. Happiness can be objectively measured. When you're getting yelled at by your wife for cheating on her, or when you're nervous you might get caught, you are not happy. When you're laughing and having a good time, you are.
You have good material here. And I agree with many things you say, but you can only honestly say that your way is objectively better for you.I know. Again, I've said many times that men who do not seek long-term consistent happiness should ignore my advice.
Ananthi Mathur 2018-06-17 20:59:58
People cheating in relationship just because they find someone more beautiful girl or handsome guy. Or Find someone more financial strong Or Lack of physical intimacy in relationship these will the main important reasons people cheat in relationship.
Vincent 2019-01-17 03:53:58
It seems I had the definition of Oneitis wrong in my mind. What I am suffering is apparently something else, namely a variant of the "there's this one girl" problem. Thing is, I am simply not interested in others, and despite (rationally) telling myself "come on, you're putting her on a pedestal, surely she's not that unique", this is how I'm feeling. One could also say that this is "scarcity mentality", but surely even Alpha 2.0 guys sometimes fall in love?