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Outcome Independence Levels In Relationships
-By Caleb Jones
That being said, can OI go too far? Sure. Early in my evolution, I was guilty of this myself. If you let your OI go completely out of control, you will start being an asshole with women and start shooting your mouth off on first dates about whatever comes into your head. You might get laid doing this, depending on other factors, but it’s going to be a long, difficult road for you. In addition, happy, low-drama relationships of any decent length are going to be near impossible for you.
Regardless, that’s a guy who usually isn’t in a relationship to begin with, and perhaps doesn’t even want one. In terms of men already in relationships, can OI go too far?
The answer is: it depends on his goals.
Take a look at this chart.
If you view OI in a relationship as scale, increasing as it goes to the right, on the far left side you’ve got a guy with zero outcome independence. This is the extreme beta male (or fallen Alpha Male 1.0 acting like a beta) with oneitis who is terrified that the woman might leave him. He will make whatever compromises she demands in an effort to keep her around, even if she’s being a total bitch.
On the far right side of the scale, you’ve got the Alpha with an extreme amount of OI. This is likely an Alpha 2.0, since Alpha 1.0s usually lack outcome independence, since a high degree of confidence and a low degree of outcome independence is what defines the Alpha Male 1.0, as I showed in these handy charts here.
Getting back to this extreme Alpha 2.0, this guy literally doesn’t give a shit, at all, about anything in the relationship, even if it ends right this second. He’s taken the extreme OI attitude of, “I’m going to do whatever the hell I want, and if she doesn’t like it, I’ll just next her ass and be onto the next woman.”
This is a great attitude to have. I wish more men had it. The world would be a far better place if more men had that attitude. Much of the world’s problems and suffering are a direct result of men having too much outcome dependence and oneitis when it comes to women.
That being said, that doesn’t mean there aren’t any possible downsides with having this attitude. One possible downside is that with that attitude, you will only be able to have FBs and normal MLTRs, and even then, these relationships aren’t going to be long-term. Having a high-end MLTR would be extremely difficult. Having any sort of OLTR would be impossible.
You may respond that you don’t care. Again, that’s great! Then that attitude is the correct one to have.
But, if you desire any relationships that are either more serious or long-term, you’ll have to back down on that level of OI just a little bit, about 10%. No more than 10%! Just 10%. At that level, serious and/or long-term relationships will be workable and harmonious for you.
You’ve got to be careful though! If you start getting oneitis, lazy, or complacent, you’ll start dropping that 10% down to 20%, 30%, 50%, or more. De facto monogamy will likely be the result. Drama and bullshit will be the result after that.
If your goal is long-term nonmonogamous relationships that are low-drama, your objective should be, in terms of the relationship, to bring your level of outcome independence to 90%, then take a hammer and nail it there forever, never letting it drop below that. (Or allow it to grow beyond that, unless you decide you don’t want long-term relationships anymore.)
Of course, as always, if you’re on the other side of the scale, don’t mind lots of drama in your relationships, and/or love monogamy, feel free to ignore everything I’m saying and forget about outcome independence altogether. You’ll be a needy pussy, and your girlfriend/wife/whatever will have you by the balls, but you probably won’t mind.
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VSmilex 2018-08-09 05:15:13
What would be an example of 90% outcome independence? "I don't want you to leave and willing to compromise on some things, but if you leave, so be it"?
Small Survivor 2018-08-09 05:20:41
Is it strictly necessary to be working on more than one woman to achieve a reasonable OI?
Alex 2018-08-09 05:24:13
I know the problem you're talking about, within a FB/MLTR context. My issues in the past have been 'too aloof' and 'too much of a dick' despite being incredibly outcome independent. Do you not think that being slightly more charming/nicer is the answer, rather than lowering outcome independence? Being more dependent on the outcome of the relationship is surely never a good thing.
hollywood 2018-08-09 06:27:23
Is it strictly necessary to be working on more than one woman to achieve a reasonable OI?I believe it is necessary to be working on several women or at least have 2 or 3 you are currently seeing to have reasonable OI. If you are only fucking one woman and only talking to her, even if you are trying to meet other women, you are going to get oneitis. You won't want to lose the only woman who is fucking you, so you will have high outcome dependence no matter what you do. I mean you can probably fake it for a little bit, but women know. They can sense it. You have got to always be sleeping with or at the very least as you said, working on other women. You have to know, absolutely, that if one woman leaves you, you can easily get laid again very quickly. *Side note for BD on the website* I am using Firefox and am having to fill out the name, email, website, fields every time I comment as others have mentioned. Have not tried another browser.
Pancake Mouse 2018-08-09 06:38:13
What would be an example of 90% outcome independence?Seconded. I'm pretty sure I'm nearing 100%, and curious what 90% looks like. True to your post, I almost only have short-term relationships.
Kjell 2018-08-09 06:40:51
I'm really new to this and will probably fuck it up with a few girls before I know how I'm supposed to act, but say you just met a new girl online (21yearold) and you had sex twice on to different days. Do you wait for her to make contact next? Or how long do you wait till you contact her for another meet up? I don't want to lose a potential FB because I was waiting for her to make a move. OI is hard to gauge because you obviously care. You're taking time out of your life to be with her but I'm supposed to not care at the same time? Ok my head is spinning.
sean 2018-08-09 06:46:17
"You’ll be a needy pussy, and your girlfriend/wife/whatever will have you by the balls, but you probably won’t mind." hahaha gold! thanks for the lol
Neil 2018-08-09 07:20:17
I’m really new to this and will probably fuck it up with a few girls before I know how I’m supposed to act, but say you just met a new girl online (21yearold) and you had sex twice on to different days. Do you wait for her to make contact next? Or how long do you wait till you contact her for another meet up? I don’t want to lose a potential FB because I was waiting for her to make a move. OI is hard to gauge because you obviously care. You’re taking time out of your life to be with her but I’m supposed to not care at the same time? Ok my head is spinning.If you only want her as a FB then just ping her occasionally, while actively looking to hook up with other girls. You can still like the girl but not too the point where everything you do is based around her. Guys get needy when they focus on one women to the detriment of seeing other girls. Once you’re seeing other girls, you can decide who you want to see and in what context (FB, MLTR etc..)
Kjell 2018-08-09 08:28:02
Thanks Neil, that actually sounds like good advice. I'm already doing that. Just went on a date with a new girl yesterday. One more question. What is occasionally? Once a week?
Tom 2018-08-09 08:44:15
blackdragon, internal game vs external game which influences a beginner/intermediate the most? We are looking to see a topic like this thanks.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-08-09 08:45:06
@ Kjell Once a week would be seeing her regularly. Ocassinally is for me once or twice a month. True, girls tend to leave sooner if you see them that rarely (at least in my experience), but if they're FBs, you shouldn't care either way.
Vanilla Boy 2018-08-09 08:57:27
Do you wait for her to make contact next?Haha. Text her, man! Tell her you'd like to see her again! Pining away hoping the phone is gonna ring is definitely not OI! It's kinda what the girls do in 1950s movies. Just not too needy, play it cool. Arrange another date with someone else as well, if you can. Do it when you're on a roll. It's easier to get laid with someone new when you've just got laid somewhere else. It takes the needy edge off, which gives you an advantage.
Blackdragon 2018-08-09 09:04:53
What would be an example of 90% outcome independence? “I don’t want you to leave and willing to compromise on some things, but if you leave, so be it”?Close. More like, "I'm willing to compromise on a few minor things, but that's it. If that's a deal breaker for you, you need to leave me and be with someone else, since we clearly aren't compatible."
Is it strictly necessary to be working on more than one woman to achieve a reasonable OI?Yes. Monogamy kills OI.
Do you not think that being slightly more charming/nicer is the answer, rather than lowering outcome independence?In the case of MLTRs like you're talking about, yes.
Side note for BD on the websiteGot a guy working on it.
say you just met a new girl online (21yearold) and you had sex twice on to different days.https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
Kjell 2018-08-09 09:09:48
I get it BD, as I'm typing these comments I sound very outcome dependent. A lot of you guys have been spinning plates for years. I just got out of a 15+ year monogamous relationship June 1st, and only 2 weeks online dating. I'm a nnewbie. So getting some regular FB is very very new to me. Although I'm shocked at how good this is working out.
CTV 2018-08-09 09:27:30
Yea I've seen some guys overdo the OI.. My thing is why hang out with girl who tolerates that crap? You may attract Doormat Submissive Women. I don't really like that. I notice you mentioned that Sweet Spot for LTR's? Is that just TMM or do you mean OLTR and Monogamy wise too? Because I'm a believer that of your frame is strong enough you can be a Monogamous Alpha. It's more rare, but it exists. Not the Alpha Provider/Fabled Submissive Alpha we've talked about. Being I'm diving into the BDSM Community more I want to be Outcome Independent, but not SO MUCH that anyone I play think I don't care about heir safety or experience. I know it's not your thing Caleb, but I think you caught the jist. Cool thing is in that Community, Very Poly Friendly so I gotta see how I can do that.
Neil 2018-08-09 09:28:48
Thanks Neil, that actually sounds like good advice. I’m already doing that. Just went on a date with a new girl yesterday. One more question. What is occasionally? Once a week?You need to make sure she isn’t expecting one thing, when you’re thinking something else. You can’t treat her like a FB if she’s thinking your both in a relationship. When your together, is she suggesting to meet up again or not? If she is then you can just ping her once every couple of weeks as she’s shown that she’s into you and will probably meet up whenever you suggest. If she’s not pushing to see you then she’s probably not going to be too fussed when you meet again so you could try contacting her once a week. If you left it longer then she’ll probably lose interest and hook up with another guy in the meantime. As Tony says if she’s just a casual hook-up it’s not the end of the world but it sounds like you haven’t got a lot of girls in your life at the moment (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!?) so it’s a good idea when your young/starting out to see as many girls as possible and then as you get more experience in dealing with different women, you can start evaluating what girls you want and how they can fit into your social life.
John 2018-08-09 09:32:59
I know the problem you’re talking about, within a FB/MLTR context. My issues in the past have been ‘too aloof’ and ‘too much of a dick’ despite being incredibly outcome independent. Do you not think that being slightly more charming/nicer is the answer, rather than lowering outcome independence? Being more dependent on the outcome of the relationship is surely never a good thing.Depends on your age and the age of the girl. In my experience older men need to be charming and maybe a little sweet while maintaining all their alpha characteristics. The degree depends on the audience. I pulled an umbrella out on a first date for woman (40 something) when it was raining and that was it. Sprinkle in some eye contact, sitting closely at the bar, touching, listening, OI, and boom your being invited into the back seat of her mommy mobile. After she sucked my dick she told me the umbrella was huge. Kept sending that stupid Rhianna song. Whatever it got me laid.
Neil 2018-08-09 09:42:09
blackdragon, internal game vs external game which influences a beginner/intermediate the most? We are looking to see a topic like this thanksOuter game every time!
Kjell 2018-08-09 09:43:21
Thanks Neil, more girls is the answer. Hope she becomes one of them but if not I guess it really isn't a big deal. For the past 15years I only fucked 2 girls and one was my wife the other was her drunk friend one night. It's just a new feeling to have girls want me. I don't ever want that to go away. Not even for a day. Ok so more time and more girls will cure me of OI
Marty McFly 2018-08-09 10:06:50
Seems to correlate well with GLL Chris' spectrum going from Boyfriend Material to Scumbag, with Boyfriend Potential and Player near the middle.
Vaquero357 2018-08-09 10:14:19
Of course, as always, if you’re on the other side of the scale, don’t mind lots of drama in your relationships, and/or love monogamy, feel free to ignore everything I’m saying and forget about outcome independence altogether.An excellent expression of outcome independence in a nutshell!
Vaquero357 2018-08-09 10:23:14
I pulled an umbrella out on a first date for woman (40 something) when it was raining and that was it. Sprinkle in some eye contact, sitting closely at the bar, touching, listening, OI, and boom your being invited into the back seat of her mommy mobile. After she sucked my dick she told me the umbrella was huge.Really good example of something Chase Amante recently talked about in an article over on Girlschase: Women want to be dominated by a man.....who cares about them. Of course, they mess up a lot and fall for dominant, OI jerks, and the woman just convinces herself he cares for her. Unrelated tech note: Chrome on Android makes me retype my name every time, but remembers my e-mail address.
Blackdragon 2018-08-09 11:19:37
Women want to be dominated by a man…..who cares about them.Well said.
Blackdragon 2018-08-09 11:20:52
blackdragon, internal game vs external game which influences a beginner/intermediate the most? We are looking to see a topic like this thanks.Internal. When I was getting started with my stuff, my internal was moderate, but I still got (somewhat) laid despite the fact my external game was absolutely horrible. On the flip side, there are guys in the PUA arena who are approach machines and know every routine and stack and whatever, and rarely if ever get laid.
C Lo 2018-08-09 12:10:04
If you are only fucking one woman and only talking to her, even if you are trying to meet other women, you are going to get oneitis.Maybe, but not necessarily. After I got divorced, sure. Then someone who was waiting for me to break up screwed my brains out about two weeks later. After the fourth or fifth time it happens you figure it out. Once you internalize that there’s always another (job/woman/whatever) right around the corner, really internalize it, you will have a hard time giving a shit no matter who you are involved with or in what format. Everyone is replaceable. Personally I don’t believe that I’ll ever get attached to someone ever again like when I was married, and I don’t want to. I’m probably too far out on the right side of that chart.
joelsuf 2018-08-09 12:38:35
If you let your OI go completely out of control, you will start being an asshole with women and start shooting your mouth off on first dates about whatever comes into your head.I'd actually argue that such behavior isn't OI, since whenever people act like that they still have expectations in the back of their mind. Its how try hards act. They go like "oh let me act like I don't have a filter, I'll pretend to not care. I do need to remind myself to get butthurt about it after if they don't laugh or do what I want them to do when I act like a dancing monkey." Someone with extreme OI wouldn't even pursue anything since at the core of OI is Nihilism (not existential nihilism, which isn't allowed to be discussed, but rather stoic nihilism where you literally don't care about anything). I go about it this way: Judging yourself based on how the chick reacts = Far left on the spectrum. Judging yourself based on if you did something wrong or not = Middle of the spectrum. Not judging yourself at all = Right on the spectrum
Much of the world’s problems and suffering are a direct result of men having too much outcome dependence and oneitis when it comes to women.Over 9000% correct, BD. Seriously, if there were no thirsty boys around, women's groups wouldn't bitching about sexual assault and shit, since people who commit sexual assault are very outcome dependent. They have to be: They are so desperate for sex that they need to break the law to do it. Pretty pathetic. I just wish women's groups would quit calling it "toxic masculinity" since being desperate for something to the point of breaking the law is not masculine at all.
joelsuf 2018-08-09 12:40:06
Everyone is replaceable.Absolutely. Everyone is replaceable and there is ALWAYS someone better.
John 2018-08-09 13:10:28
If you are only fucking one woman and only talking to her, even if you are trying to meet other women, you are going to get oneitis.
Maybe, but not necessarily. After I got divorced, sure. Then someone who was waiting for me to break up screwed my brains out about two weeks later. After the fourth or fifth time it happens you figure it out.I was going to post the same thing. Helps if you're a natural Alpha 1 who has later in began to implement some of BD's Alpha 2.0 teachings. At this point I do not get onitis or lose OI. The opposite is actually the case and due to that, I get a ton of insecurity from any woman I decide to date for a bit. Women know.
David 2018-08-09 17:41:06
Ive never given a shit about women or trying to have success with any girl in particular. But sometimes im too far on that extreme. Women today are bombarded with dudes and attention. Ive def lost out to more aggressive guys who take action. Months and years later the chick tells me i didnt seem interested so she went along with someone else. I think there's a narrow window of flirtacious excitement that eventually fades if the dude doesnt take action. Most of my sexcapades happen when i see the vibe in some chick, i have this " now or never" revelation kinda mixed with the thought " lets see what she does, what do i have to lose?" On the contrary side, any time i try to pursue someone systematically and force it, it usually bombs completely and i get called asshole or even creep lol.
Vanilla Boy 2018-08-09 19:28:47
I remember the train and car analogy in the book. You're on the train and you stay on the train and if she wants to get off she can. Cool. What if you stay on the train but still find yourself staring out the window thinking about her? I've had a few cases with women making demands that I'm just not prepared to meet (mainly marriage). They give an ultimatum and I sadly say I don't do ultimatums. So they go. No denying I felt very sad about it, but I never tried to bargain with them. It's their right to go. So, BD, in your framework, is OI not giving a shit? Or is it being unperturbed in your actions and choices? If the latter, my OI level is very high. But no denying it doesn't always make me feel happy. I always figure it's better to deal with being unhappy in the short term than to make a choice that will really fuck up your life. Is that OI in your system?
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-08-10 00:50:42
@ Vanilla I think it's the latter. BD did mention a lot of times that feeling feelings is okay. I mean we're only human. If the definition of OI would be the former version, I wouldn't want that. As Mark Manson said in his book, you have to give a shit about something. Not giving a shit at all is still giving a shit about something - how you behave and perceive yourself. You should give very few shits, and those should be very deliberately decided. At least that's how I see it and operate.
Piotr 2018-08-10 05:28:07
Hi BD, Have you described somewhere in the past or in your books what steps should you take to increase your outcome independence? I guess it is long term process of re-wiring your brain and details of it will be helpful Thanks
K 2018-08-10 05:53:15
How about distinguishing between "not giving a shit" and "knowing what one wants and having clear personal boundaries"? BD obviously cares about his OLTR wife and their relationship - to the extent that he was ready to participate in a wedding ceremony and considered consulting a psychotherapist / communication specialist to help them improve in their communication. At the same time, he knows very well what he wants and what he won't accept in a relationship (e.g., drama, TMM). If his partner is not happy outside the boundaries, he says "we're not sufficiently compatible, let's not be in a relationship". He realizes that the probability that i) someone else will be more compatible with him, or (at least) that ii) he'll be happier without this relationship, is much higher than that he would pine after that particular woman for the rest of his life (=> "abundance mentality"). It is important for people in a relationship to have boundaries and know each other's boundaries so that they can avoid crossing them if that's what they both want. If they can't be happy together without crossing the other's boundaries, they shouldn't be together.
Blackdragon 2018-08-10 09:02:50
What if you stay on the train but still find yourself staring out the window thinking about her?Read this.
Have you described somewhere in the past or in your books what steps should you take to increase your outcome independence?This book, chapter 15.
How about distinguishing between “not giving a shit” and “knowing what one wants and having clear personal boundaries”?As long as those personal boundaries are to extreme levels she's probably never encountered from an man in her entire life, and the man never changes his mind on them, ever. ("You can't ever tell me what to do. I get to fuck other women whenever I want. You will never touch my money and we're going to sign documents to that effect.") Then fine. That's what that 90% on that scale looks like. Anything less is beta.
POB 2018-08-10 12:34:35
blackdragon, internal game vs external game which influences a beginner/intermediate the most? We are looking to see a topic like this thanks.I would say it depends on the man. Every guy has specific strengths and weaknesses. Just think about the following two scenarios: 1) If you're naturally a sociable guy, loves to talk to people and can handle well social situations, work on external because you're already good at it. 2) if you're an introvert who loves to read, prefers to spend some time alone and does not handle well a lot of people around you, work on internal. After you get results (meaning regular lays) you can begin to work further away from your comfort zone and push yourself to improve. That said, you should always (as we already know): - look your best and be healthy - dress well - read about game, specially from guys who behave the opposite of you but are still sucessfull - be busy and take action towards women
Vanilla Boy 2018-08-10 17:11:51
Vanilla Boy 2018-08-10 17:22:04
As long as those personal boundaries are to extreme levels she’s probably never encountered from an man in her entire life, andthe man never changes his mind on them, ever.Come to think of it, a lot of men get this one completely backasswards. Sign over the house, agree to monogamy, have children when they don't want them - and then all of a sudden dig their heels in about which restaurant to go to. Haha. Talk about swallowing the elephant and choking on the gnat!
Steven 2018-08-10 21:00:12
I almost pulled a BD tonight...I messaged a "Girl", but then on a hunch I scrolled down to read "her" profile. It was a Transgender! AHHH! Gotta love modern dating! Sometimes OI has it's limits! I hope this post doesn't get this blog deleted for "Hate Speech" by corporate fascists. First they came for Alex...
Vanilla Boy 2018-08-10 21:47:00
It was a Transgender! AHHH! Gotta love modern dating! Sometimes OI has it’s limits!Haha. If she told you she was transgender, it speaks well for her integrity. Politely say no thanks and wish her well on her search. It's when you only find out the next morning that you've really got cause for anguish.
Marlio 2018-08-11 05:11:24
Cool post! How to deal with FB's that has feelings and wants to be MLTRs, and "can't handle just being someone I have sex with"?
Ash 2018-08-11 07:27:51
I'm working on an article with a similar concept for women. In the past, the needier I acted with my boyfriend, the more annoyed he became and the more he wanted to push me away. When I learned to adopt an abundance mindset and the willingness to walk away, the better he reacted. No guy wants the clingy girlfriend.
Blackdragon 2018-08-11 10:38:07
How to deal with FB’s that has feelings and wants to be MLTRs, and “can’t handle just being someone I have sex with”?If an FB has those kinds of feelings for you, you're probably doing something wrong, and are likely treating her (in some ways) as an MLTR instead of an FB. So check yourself before you wreck yourself. Other than that, proceed as normal. Keep up a good EFA, don't talk about the relationship, soft next if she gives you drama, let her go if she leaves, etc. Nothing special.
Captain 2018-08-12 20:10:46
@ Ash "No guy wants the clingy girlfriend." Not true. Sounds like the classic thing BD talks about were we project our own gender's preferences onto the other gender. I really like that my much younger girlfriend of 2+ years is clingy sometimes. It makes me feel loved, appreciated and needed. Basically it makes me feel like the big Alpha boss man. To be fair, even though she gets clingy sometimes, she is one of the most logical, low drama woman I have ever met. To me a little bit of clingyness feels like normal feminine behavior and goes along with other feminine behavior that I like such as nurturing etc. This isn't to say it is the best thing for women in all relationships. But in me and my gfs case it works, I would be happy to spend the rest of my life with her in an OTLR. BTW Ash, I really like that you are on this sight learning about how men think:) The world would be better if everyone actually learned how the other gender thinks and behaves.
C Lo 2018-08-12 20:52:25
I concur. Being clingy or needy isn’t the death Nell for women. But men? Whooo. Nobody likes a needy man. Nobody.
Ginger 2018-08-13 02:11:43
How much OI do you think your past MLTRs had in general?I mean ,out of curiosity ,the submissive mltr had less OI than an independent mltr(your definition),or these things change from women to women,and there is not a trend. Have you had mltr who were more OI than you or who had a bigger OI than normal?With those mltr who had a big OI, your attraction for them was normal or higher?Or since they had such high OI,you lost interest because they "didnt care"?
Dutch 2018-08-13 02:14:39
Blackdragon,do you think there is a corelation between a guy OI level and the effectivness of a soft next?Meaning if you have a high OI,you dont have to soft next often,or once you soft nexted a women,she would not do drama untill a long period of time,or something.
Eric 2018-08-13 09:23:32
Guys, how does a beginner know exactly what outcome independence feels like if he never has had any results with women in the first place? Is it where I'm supposed to "fake it till you make it"?.... but again I have not a clue on what I'd be trying to fake or do to be outcome independent in the first place
Captain 2018-08-13 12:07:30
@ Eric For me I became more outcome independent when I realized that I am the prize, not women. A big part of this was hooking up with a lot of different women in a lot of different situations while also studying game and human behavior. I stopped pedistalizing women but appreciated them more in some ways. At some stage if you hook up with enough women and keep an open mind, you crack the code for how to give a women pleasure both physically and mentally.
Eric 2018-08-13 20:16:41
@Captain, thanks for the advice...but how did you easily get those hookups in the first place? I still have yet to find a women who's even interested for Christ sakes. I at least have the fundamentals down such as: getting into great shape, dressing good, taking care of myself, having your same mindset of i am the prize... yet after all the work on myself, I've yet to find 1 women interested. I really don't know how all you guys on here seem to easily get hookups/dates
B 2018-08-14 00:08:51
Eric, It's a steep learning curve at first for sure. How old are you? Are you a virgin? I started really getting decent results after buying BD's first and second books ("online dating manual" and "get to sex fast"). If you already look good, get those two books and go on 20-50 first dates. I'm serious about that number. You need to learn to date and attract women, then you can start refining your "game" and get more attractive women interested in you. You'll likely find a few women in those dates that are happy to have sex with you. If online dating doesn't work where you are, learn daygame. There is a lot of support and information out there. Don't give up, keep learning/working on yourself and your "game", and you'll get everything you want.
John 2018-08-14 05:34:58
@Captain, thanks for the advice…but how did you easily get those hookups in the first place? I still have yet to find a women who’s even interested for Christ sakes. I at least have the fundamentals down such as: getting into great shape, dressing good, taking care of myself, having your same mindset of i am the prize… yet after all the work on myself, I’ve yet to find 1 women interested. I really don’t know how all you guys on here seem to easily get hookups/datesAt first it seems that way. Like anything else consistency... with openers online and tweaking your image. When you run out of girls in your area expand. Anyone from 18-40's that you find attractive on every app you can find. If you're already doing this and you're not finding success have people look at your stuff online, then tweak. I can remember sitting home alone thinking the exact same thing as you are saying right now. Meanwhile my buddy is fucking 3 different girls he just met. Keep at it and have zero fear of rejection (i'm weird in that I thrive off rejection), I.E. OI. Women reject for a million reasons, many of which are out of your control. When you get a message it's about getting them out on a date asap. Not getting to know them. Forget that shit. You're not trying to find your soul mate. Get them at restaurant, sitting at the bar, coffee shop as soon as possible.
Eric 2018-08-14 05:36:22
@B I gave online dating my best shot, though after 2 blitzes, I ran out of new women to message ( which is weird because I thought my city was big, Niagara Falls). As far as learning day game, I work long hours and am completely exhausted by the time I get home from work at night so that's unfortunately not a possibility either. Again, it goes back to my question, how am I supposed date/get dates if there's never anyone I can find interested in actually going on a date in the first damn place?
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-08-15 00:23:59
@ Eric When I started out with game 2 years ago, I used social circle game to get the best results. Go out to a bar after work, talk to the waitress. Join some kind of collective; charity, dancing lessons, hiking; the possibilities are uncountable. Ffs I met my current MLTR in a political party I joined (and left 2 months later haha). Just surround yourself with people. Small steps! The important thing - to learn and to execute - is escalation. When you find a girl you like - escalate. Rejection is always better than regret. Or continue to keep making excuses for yourself.
Neil 2018-08-15 02:42:54
As far as learning day game, I work long hours and am completely exhausted by the time I get home from work at night so that’s unfortunately not a possibility either. Again, it goes back to my question, how am I supposed date/get dates if there’s never anyone I can find interested in actually going on a date in the first damn place?@Eric If you can't make some sacrifices for something that's obviously important to you then you'll never going to achieve your aims. Online dating requires farming high numbers of girls in order to get enough responses so you not only need to be opening accounts on ALL the dating sites and apps but then after a while, deleting them and creating new ones, looking at your photo's and profiles to ascertain what sort of favourable/negative responses your getting!?.. You mention being too tired for daygame as you work late but what about lunchtimes or weekends/holidays? Try taking a long weekend to a near-bye city like NY to combine day game and a break or try and take a half days vacation so you can hit the streets for a few hours before heading home. Look to make things happen in your life because they won't come to you.
Eric 2018-08-15 04:50:28
@Neil. I'd like to see you try and work 60+hr weeks, 12-14 hour days and being on call 24/7 (working at from 8-9am to 8-9pm at night), not getting weekends off, etc ... Then get back to me and see if daygame was even an option for you if you don't collapse first from pure exhaustion. Yeah, that's why I online has been my only viable option.
John 2018-08-15 05:25:31
I’d like to see you try and work 60+hr weeks, 12-14 hour days and being on call 24/7 (working at from 8-9am to 8-9pm at night), not getting weekends off, etc … Then get back to me and see if daygame was even an option for you if you don’t collapse first from pure exhaustion. Yeah, that’s why I online has been my only viable option.I'm raising a 14 year old by myself, on call 24\7 also, keep up house, pool, yard, laundry, grocery shopping, diners for the me and the kid, work 50-60 hours, and still get laid whenever I want. I have a buddy who works more hours than you and is raising 2 kids and fucks multiple woman on the same weekend whenever he starts a blitz.. Stop making excuses. No excuse you can make prevents you from getting laid. We all have had the same issues and obstacles or we wouldn't be on this site.
Neil 2018-08-15 08:06:26
@Neil. I’d like to see you try and work 60+hr weeks, 12-14 hour days and being on call 24/7 (working at from 8-9am to 8-9pm at night), not getting weekends off, etc … Then get back to me and see if daygame was even an option for you if you don’t collapse first from pure exhaustion. Yeah, that’s why I online has been my only viable option.Then you need to look at your job situation if you’re tired all the time and see if you can find another position where you’re not working all hours. And before you say how either “but I love my job” or “but all the jobs in this field are the same”, decide what you want more; a decent life with women that makes you happy or a lonely, workaholic existence where you eventually get ill/depressed/alcoholic (or all three!) and your company say “How sad” and then just gets someone else in to replace you. Set a date so you can save enough money to quit when you reach it in order to let you survive for a while and at the same time look for a job/career that also gives you a good quality of life. BD says that guys should be looking to build location independent businesses so have a think about what things your passionate about and see if you can build a business from that..
Vaquero347 2018-08-15 11:03:46
@Eric "Online prospecting" (I don’t call it "game" or "pickup") is a long, grinding slog. You save you did 2 blitzes and got bupkis? No surprise there. It happens, especially when you're figuring it all out and getting calibrated. Read BD'S book about Online to learn tricks to maximize your efficiency. (For example, I never read profiles. I just send openers to women whose pix I like. Only way down the line when a meet up is immanent will I read the profile.) Second, Niagara Falls is NOT a large city. If we throw in the whole Buffalo/Niagara metro region, you've got just over 1 million people, HALF of whom are men. So your pool is automatically cut to 500K. Then there are women outside your desired age range and children...women in your range who are aren't looking, aren't on your dating site....eligible women on your site who are just there for a quick validation boost after a fight with the boyfriend or husband....old profiles for women who ceased being active members years ago (a classic old dating site trick) - the end result is a VERY small pool. I know: I live in a similarly sized metro. So if you really, really don't want to move to a an area with a bigger population, you'll need to (a) set up profiles on ALL of the sites/apps relevant to you and your geographic region and (b) supplement your online prospecting with some other method - social circle, cold approach, etc. I've recently realized that I need to start doing the latter. I love going to a certain kind of concert but have a terrible time finding women who do too - and extra challenge to my online prospecting. Last year I suddenly realized that my best chances of meeting a woman who likes that kind of music will be. ....at one of those concerts. Duh! But, shit, that means I'm gonna have to do the thing I totally, totally hate with a profound aversion: cold approach. But it's looking like the best way to get what I want. Dating is a big chore for men. It's not really enjoyable - basically a second job until you achieve your goal (e g., OLTR, MLTRs, lotsa FBs, whatever). Sucks, but human society isn't gonna remap itself for us, so we have to work around its obsolete "rules". All boils down to.... What do you want? And how much do you want it? But don't blow yourself up too much about it. Have other things in your life that are so enjoyable you sometimes forget about the Woman Task. I'm not doing feel-good platitudes here: if you get obsessed, women will smell it on you over the Internet, and you'll fail. They're 5,000 times more sensitive to that kind of emotions stuff than men are. Be committed but also stay Outcome Independent.
Vanilla Boy 2018-08-15 13:59:23
Dating is a big chore for men. It’s not really enjoyableYeah, well. It has its good days and its bad days. A bit like an exercise program, it sure as hell doesn't work if you only do it when you feel like doing it. Do it even when you aren't in the mood and you'll be in the mood for it more often.
Vanilla Boy 2018-08-15 14:32:52
Also, if you only pay attention to one thing BD says, pay attention to his tips about profile photos. Get a really good one. I had a fairly crappy one a few months ago, then I had lunch with an old friend, a professional photographer. He was showing off his new camera and took a few quick, natural snaps of me that turned out really well. He has the art of cracking jokes and catching his subject when they are laughing and smiling. I paid for lunch in return for him handing them over to use on dating sites. Night and day! Response rate skyrocketed!
Vaquero357 2018-08-15 14:48:58
@Vanilla Yes! The trials make the wins that much sweeter. And +10 on the importance of fotos. I know I need to really upgrade my pix, to the point that I'm probably going to pay a professional photographer - it's that important. I mean we're blowing thru chicks' profiles based on their fotos, so sure as shootin' they're using that as the same "first" cut for filtering thru us. I think BD did at least one post here about what types of fotos work best for whom, etc. (and in the online dating ebook). Just gotta remember to project an inviting but OI persona!
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-08-16 02:09:37
@Vaquero357 I'm in a similar situation like you, realizing that the only way to get consistent results with women is to cold approach. You said that it's a second job, but I thought about doing daygame in spurts of 6 months. So I cold approach for 6 months, improve the skill, get some lays, keep the women that are worth it. Then with the roster full, I stop doing cold approach. I focus on other important goals and projects and then after a year or so, do another 6 months of cold approach. Ad infinitum. I came up with this idea, because BD says to work on only 2 goals / projects at a time. Considering I have a lot of plans, focusing only on daygame for 2 years to get really good is just not acceptable haha We'll see how my idea works in the real world. I'm starting soon.
Neil 2018-08-16 08:00:43
You said that it’s a second job, but I thought about doing daygame in spurts of 6 months. So I cold approach for 6 months, improve the skill, get some lays, keep the women that are worth it. Then with the roster full, I stop doing cold approach. I focus on other important goals and projects and then after a year or so, do another 6 months of cold approach. Ad infinitum.@TonyOutOfNowhere I think you need to fine tune this idea. Whilst in theory it sounds good, in practice it may not result in what you expect. I’m presuming you haven’t done any/much daygame so it’s going to take a while for you to get noticeably competent at it and by that I mean consistently approaching hot girls without any approach anxiety, regularly getting dates and not getting flaky numbers and flaking on arranged dates. If you want to achieve that sort of level after six months your looking at a couple of hours minimum every weekday and more at weekends/holidays and even then there’s no guarantee of successfully getting a multiple set of women. Beginners, on average, tend to get about one lay in fifty approaches and then it rises to about one in thirty for intermediate daygamers. I don’t know where you live but to get decent results you need to be gaming in an area with a high population and thus a corresponding volume of women and also in a location where there’s lot of pedestrian traffic (shopping streets, coffee bars, cafes, malls..) By stopping for six months, the skill set you’ve acquired drops off as you forget the little nuances like spotting ioi’s, how to stack, build comfort and attraction. Also remember that women can and will drop out of your life for various reasons (location, new job, desire for a traditional relationship etc..) so you could suddenly find yourself with only one or no girls and you’ll be back to square one before your six months are up. My advice is to hit daygame hard for six months and then after that, see where you are in regards to your goals. If you’ve got all the girls you want, then great but if not, try to keep the daygame ticking over by approaching anytime you see an attractive women. Daygame isn’t like nightgame where you only can do it at set times i.e. Weekends & after work drinks, but at any time, be it specific daygame sessions or just going to pick up your dry cleaning or seeing a hot girl in the supermarket... Hope it works out for you mate and keep us posted!
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-08-16 23:43:22
@ Neil Thank you for commenting man. I agree with your stance, but I'm going to try my way and then I will calibrate later on. I made a plan in which I should be able to approach 100 women in two weeks time. So in 6 months, that should roughly give me 1200 approaches. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm very confident that out of those 1200, there will be at least 3 women I lay. And that's all I want. Mastering daygame to perfection is not my primary goal. I don't want to be some super awesome mind-bending seducer. What I want is a skill in which I'm decently proficient, that is going to complement my online-game pursuits. How long did it take you to get consistent results, from zero to money, as they would say? 🙂
Neil 2018-08-17 02:52:53
How long did it take you to get consistent results, from zero to money, as they would say?A long time. I started after I read “The Game” around 2006, but as I was living in New York at the time (I’m from England) my results were awful as I was just doing indirect comfort game and so women would happily chat but I wasn’t getting anywhere because I just came across as some ‘gay English guy’. I must have done about 600 approaches before I even got a date!! Lol! Once I started to go more direct, my results changed dramatically and also by living & working in Norway, Spain & Japan I met different types of women, which helped me re-fine my game. Once I came home to London, guys like Tom Torero & Nick Krauser were becoming well known and ‘The London Daygame’ scene developed. I now coach older guys in daygame and I still laugh to myself about how I used to approach girls compared to the guys doing it today! Good luck with your approaching mate.
Brian 2018-08-21 09:48:21
Well I have a challenge with this recently. I met a young woman while out of the country. I went to visit her twice. She had to take control of ordering at restaurants and discussion with her friends because I don't speak the language. She is unable to visit me because of college. I have the means and time to visit. Is there a way to continue this dynamic without appearing as an AFC with oneitis ?
Tom og 2018-08-22 12:22:48
Great post. Pls disable comments. For your future posts.
Marlio 2018-08-29 01:44:31
If an FB has those kinds of feelings for you, you’re probably doing something wrong, and are likely treating her (in some ways) as an MLTR instead of an FB. So check yourself before you wreck yourself. Other than that, proceed as normal. Keep up a good EFA, don’t talk about the relationship, soft next if she gives you drama, let her go if she leaves, etc. Nothing special.You are absolutely correct, I have treated her a little as MLTR because I was a little unsure about her because of mental health. Lesson learned. Update: FB continued to feel more and more, and tried to get me to promise monogamy to her. I kindly said no, sent her out. Then she wrote a loooooooong text TO MY HIGH-END MLTR (Idk how she found out who she was). High end MLTR now refuses to see me and said goodbye to me (she was in a little bit of a doubt if she wanted to continue anyway). She feels violated bla bla, that "she could SEE ON FB's TEXT that it was more than just sex" "I lied to her" . Tried to get her to see me so i could explain she is just sex to me, but she refused, so I have to let her go and 4 month no contact is initiated. Very sad, i really really liked her. I have a question for future high end MLTR's. How can i stop them from getting hurt because I am "having feelings and dating" other girls. It seems easier to get into her head being OK with casual ONS and sex. And keep the frame about it "just being sex" and "were both young and need to have fun". But me having feelings for someone else makes her feel betrayed etc etc. How to deal with this? I have your book and you say it is a gray zone. Do you want to explain more in detail?
RM 2019-06-27 21:05:20
Hey guys, I made a post in another thread about wanting to get out of a 20 year marriage that is now all but done. I have been talkig to this sweet 25 year old honey and a good friend of hers tells me how she blows all of this asswipes who pester her constantly and blow her up on he phone and all her social media. At work I talk with her on the phone and via skype, when she can't talk, I say no big deal. When she doesn't get in contact with me I don't contact her. I am realizing that not giving a shit actually makes her contact me as opposed to being up her ass. Yes, once in a blue moon I call on my own just so she knows I have some interest. She sends me hearts on skype and all types of stuff. When she can't talk alot she always starts with "Sorry I was busy". I tell her don't be sorry, do your thing and I don't make a big freakin deal about it. It's the first time in my life, not swooning all over a hottie actually gets me calls and messages. It's a basic simple example but feels so good to be honest. L8r alphas! Oh, how do I get access to the forum? I am very new here. We are thousands of miles apart but I hope i can get out of this marriage and get some time to visit her in person and meet her since we haven't met yet. We have only know eachother a few months but something is there, chemistry, attraction, etc. She even sent me pics via email, I haven't lol. She keeps telling her friend she wonders what I look like. Not sure where to go with that yet as wait to long maybe loses interest, to quick, and should be like eh. These younger women, I don't know how to read them.