Ideal Nonmonogamous Relationship Configurations
Over the years, many of you have asked this question:
What is the ideal configuration? For example, one OLTR, two MLTRs, and 3 FBs? What are the pros and cons of different configurations?
First, let’s quickly define our relationship types for any newer readers:
FB – Fuck buddy or friends with benefits. You don’t date her, you just have sex with her. She’s your fuck friend, that’s it.
MLTR – Multiple long term relationships. You really like her emotionally and romantically. You’re dating her and having sex with her. However, you can date and be romantic with other women too (and she can date and have sex with other men).
OLTR – Open long term relationship. She’s your girlfriend or wife, and the only woman in your life you care for emotionally and romantically. However, you can still have sex with women on the side, provided they’re just FBs or one night stands. MLTRs are not allowed.
The Rules
In order to follow a nonmonogamous relationship model correctly, for maximum happiness and minimum drama and hurt feelings, you must adhere to some rules. If you break any of these, you’re guaranteed for some severe problems in your life.
1. You can have as many FBs as you want. The only limit is your schedule.
2. You can have as many MLTRs as you want. However, having too many is risky (I’ll get to that in a minute).
3. When you have multiple MLTRs, you will never like all of them the same. There will be some you like more than others. Usually, there will be one you like the best. This can be your “high-end” MLTR, whom you treat almost like a girlfriend (but not quite, remember, she’s not an OLTR!). You technically can have more than one high-end MLTR, but you probably won’t want to.
4. You can only have one OLTR. An OLTR is the only relationship within this model that is actual pair-bonding.
5. MLTRs are not allowed if you have an OLTR. Therefore, there’s an error in the question I quoted above. If you have an OLTR, you can’t have any MLTRs. Your OLTR is your girlfriend or wife, the only woman you’re dating (but not fucking). If you have more than one “OLTRs,” or have an OLTR and a MLTR, you don’t actually have an OLTR at all; you instead have multiple MLTRs and you’re misusing the term “OLTR.”
6. FBs are allowed in an OLTR, subject to whatever ground rules you and her set up for the relationship. Those ground rules are completely up to you, but as I talked about in my book, you want the absolute minimum number of rules. The more rules you have in a relationship, the more drama you are guaranteed to have. This is one of the reasons why monogamous relationships tend to have so much drama; too many rules. Human beings don’t like rules in their personal lives and aren’t capable of following them long-term. If you ever find yourself in an OLTR with a woman who is insisting on a bunch of rules, you’ve probably picked the wrong woman to be your girlfriend, and a downgrade is probably in order.
Guidelines
These are not rules, but general guidelines that you should follow for maximum happiness and minimal problems.
1. While you are technically allowed to have as many MLTRs as you like, having three MLTRs is pretty tough, and having four or more is going to be extremely difficult. Unlike FBs, MLTRs are real “relationships.” Imagine dating, in a romantic relationship, four women all at the same time. It’s pretty brutal, even if you have a lot of free time on your hands. I normally have two MLTRs, sometimes just one. (Today I have an OLTR instead, which means I have zero MLTRs.) I’ve had three MLTRs at certain points, but it was pretty difficult, and it was back when my work schedule was much less intensive. I’ve never had more than three at the same time, and wouldn’t want to.
2. Having a girlfriend, of any kind (OLTR or even a typical monogamous LTR) is not recommended for younger men. If you’re well under the age of 30, then dude, don’t even worry about an OLTR right now. Have fun with FBs and MLTRs and worry about an OLTR later. Having an OLTR is a real commitment of time, focus, energy, and emotion, in ways MLTRs and FBs are not. Managing an OLTR also takes more skill, is much easier to screw up, and has higher potential for drama than MLTRs. If you’re a younger guy, you likely don’t have the experience yet to do something like this, regardless of how smart you are or what your feelings are telling you.
I realize most younger men reading this are going to ignore this advice, but the advice is still accurate. Avoid an OLTR until you’re older. I was around 38 years old before I had anything that even looked like an OLTR.
3. As much as I hate to say this, the best FBs are ones who already have boyfriends. (Ah, monogamy.) They are the least amount of drama and take the least amount of effort and time. To be clear, I’m talking about boyfriends, not husbands (having ongoing sex with married women is risky and I don’t recommend it). I’m not recommending that you go around and fuck a bunch of women who have boyfriends. I’m just stating the fact that FBs with boyfriends are the least amount of trouble. What you do with that information is up to you.
4. MLTRs should not have boyfriends, even though one might think otherwise. Every time I’ve seen a guy with a MLTR who also had a boyfriend, serious drama and problems was the result. However, your MLTRs can have other MLTRs of their own; that’s perfectly acceptable (sometimes even preferable).
5. FBs and MLTRs can be any age you like. Age 18 to 50+, whatever you’re in to. Over the last ten years of my life, I’ve had both FBs and MLTRs with women that went from age 18 all the way to the mid-50s. It’s no problem as long as you do everything correctly.
6. Any guy with an OLTR who is younger than about age 24 is asking for serious problems down the road. Read this for more information. If long-term happiness is important to you, consider 24 the absolute youngest you’ll go for an OLTR (minimums of 25 or 30 would be even better). Keep women age 23 and younger to FBs and MLTRs only. They’re not done evolving yet, so it’s foolish to place any long-term expectations on women this young.
7. You are allowed to fall in love with a MLTR. Obviously you should never fall in love with a FB, and if you have an OLTR love is already assumed (if you don’t love her, she probably shouldn’t be your OLTR). Being in love with multiple MLTRs is not recommended (assuming you can even do that; most men can’t).
8. Always remember that your goal is to build a long-term roster of women who will come and go from your life, for the rest of your life. Your goal is not to have a bunch of short-lived relationships where you never see the woman again after she LSNFTEs you; that’s way too much work (unless you’re a Thrill of the Hunt guy). Once you spend several years acquiring new FBs and MLTRs, you’ll have a nice list of women you can “live on” without ever having to go out and sarge for new women (or at least need to do so frequently). I haven’t done a true, full-on online dating blitz in over two years. I have more than enough FBs and ex-MLTRs on my roster to probably last me several more years before I ever have to find a new woman. It’s awesome! But to be fair, it took me several years to get there. If that sounds good to you (and trust me, it’s good), set it as a goal and get it done.
Your Factors
With the above parameters in mind, what’s the ideal configuration? There is none! Every man has different needs and limitations. Your job is not to find the ideal configuration, but the ideal configuration for you. Your ideal configuration is based on the following factors:
1. Your age. Younger guys tend to have more flexible schedules, less money, higher drama tolerances, and get feelings and oneitis faster. Older guys tend to have more money but more tight schedules, and are usually far less tolerant of drama from women.
2. Your sex drive. The higher your sex drive, the more women you’re going to need and the more time and overhead your relationship life will take. Men with much lower sex drives have an advantage here; they need fewer women, thus need to spend less time with this part of their life.
3. Your kid situation. Men with kids are going to have much less flexible schedules and will have to be more discreet about their sexual activities.
4. Your schedule. Obviously, if you work 50 hours a week and are in the gym five days a week, you’re not going to be able to manage as many women as the guy who never goes to the gym and only works part time.
5. Your income might have an effect on this decision, depending on whether or not you like to wine and dine women, and considering that MLTRs and OLTRs tend to cost more than FBs, at least over time. (That being said, it’s perfectly possible to have a MLTR that costs you zero or negative (i.e. she pays for you) if your frame is strong; I’ve done it several times.)
Also realize that your ideal configuration will change as you get older. If you’re 25, the thought of settling down with an OLTR might rack you with horror. (“Why would any guy do that???”) Twenty years later when you’re 45, settling down with an OLTR might sound like a pretty good idea, provided you’re careful. Or, the reverse may be true. Maybe you’ve spent your entire younger years married multiple times, and as a divorced older guy now, you’re done with that shit, and just want to relax and get laid with FBs (and perhaps the occasional MLTR) for the rest of your elder years.
There is no right answer here, provided what you’re doing makes you very happy and you follow the above rules. The point is, the odds of your ideal configuration being the same forever is possible, but quite unlikely.
6. You shouldn’t have kids with MLTRs. I’ve seen a few guys do it, but its usually messy. Having kids with a long-term, co-habiting, correctly structured OLTR who has been cool with you for many years before you guys have any kids is fine. As usual, make sure you take all the usual precautions and don’t expect the OLTR to last “the rest of your life,” because it won’t.
Common Ideal Configurations
Here are some common configurations that have worked for me and hundreds of men I’ve talked to about these topics over the last nine years.
1 MLTR, 1 FB. This is the best configuration for beginners, by far. One girl you’re dating and you like, and one girl on the side you see occasionally. Any man reading these words is capable of this configuration. Stop with your fucking excuses. It also eliminates the “this takes too much time” excuse. This is even easier than two FBs, because if you’re a complete beginner, you’re likely to “catch feelings” for at least one of them, so the 1 MLTR, 1 FB configuration frees you from having to worry about that. If you’re just getting started, 1 MLTR and 1 FB should be your first goal to hit.
3 to 5 FBs. This one is best for very busy men, or older guys who have “been there and done that.” You have zero dating overhead, which is very nice. You’re getting laid constantly, and it doesn’t take very much time at all. You simply have a list of 3 to 5 women you can text whenever you want, so you never go without sex, yet never have any complications.
1 MLTR, 3 to 5 FBs. This is another very easy, clear-cut configuration. You have a bunch of women, but only one you actually “like” and date. Lots of men really like this one. I’ve done it once or twice myself.
2 MLTRs, 2 or 3 FBs. This is best for high sex drive men and men who are not complete beginners. This is the configuration I have followed for most of the last decade or so, and it was wonderful. You get it all; frequent sex, companionship, connection, even love when you want it, all while staying very free to live your life as you wish without the overhead or rules of a girlfriend or wife. It’s also long-term sustainable; you can have this configuration literally for the rest of your life.
2 or 3 MLTRs. This is for more romantic guys with more emotional personalities. Some guys are uncomfortable with the concept of the FB, so they have 2 to 3 women they see, and they’re all MLTRs. Almost always they have one designated as the high-end MLTR. There’s nothing inherently wrong with this configuration, but just remember that if the concept of having sex with a FB is disturbing to you, you’re likely in for problems (drama) down the road.
OLTR with 1 FB. This is a more difficult configuration, and a rarer one. It is one I’ve eyed as a goal myself for several years. It’s difficult because FB relationships usually have shorter life spans due to LSFNTEs, so keeping one, steady FB around for a prolonged period of time is unlikely. You may have to constantly replace her every six months or so from either your roster or from cold approach pickup. The upside is huge though; you can devote your emotional and sexual focus on your OLTR girlfriend/wife, but get a little on the side when you need it in a way that takes very little time. It’s ideal for older guys or busier guys.
OLTR with 2 or 3 FBs. This is a very common configuration, particularly for busy men over 30. You get the loving, pair-bonding experience with a girlfriend or wife, and get regular fun on the side whenever you want it.
OLTR with lots (5+) of FBs. This is a common configuration for guys who have higher sex drives, or make more money, or have more public personalities, or have Thrill of the Hunt tendencies. The upside is both the provider and the player in you get to express themselves regularly; it’s truly the best of both worlds. The downside is that it’s quite time intensive, thus not a good fit for busier men.
While reading through these configurations, I’m sure one or two spoke to you as something you’d enjoy. Go for it! If you’re starting from scratch with this nonmonogamy stuff, read this article or even better, buy this book. None of this is very difficult if you’re willing to put in a little time up-front. The payoffs in happiness are huge.
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Thanks for the article!
If you have an OLTR, how many times per month would you expect to have sex with FBs?
What are your thoughts of replacing FBs with escorts? Escorts should be better in bed, hotter, no drama and more discrete. And if you’re in a happy OLTR you would likely see FBs less often anyways.
PS any experience with kegel exercises? They’re recommended for men and women, supposedly make sex better
Ah.. finally, another (awaited) post is came from this site.
Thank you BD!
Caleb, I know you are planning to move in with your OLTR if all goes well. In general how do you feel cohabitation affects long term happiness? I have lived with women around 12 of the last 17 years and I am beginning to feel like it may be difficult to cohabitate and not have it negatively affect long term happiness. I plan to live alone indefinitely, but I am curious how you think it could work…
Hi Caleb,
Great article again. Is there any chance of you writing an article in relation to ex MLTR‘s returning back to you, and the best specific strategy to return to emotionally deep relationships (as well as sexual)?
Would appreciate that greatly!
@seans comment.
This could be a whole post. Im starting to feel the same way that LT cohabitation just cant equal happiness.
100% true. I still have some young friends who get the itch around 25-28 and go “serious” with one special chick from their roster. I always tell them to pause and carefully think it through, at least for a year. I’m ignored, of course, and it always ends as bad as it could.
BD, do you think it’s ok to sarge non-stop, even with a high-end MLTR or OLTR beside you? I’m thinking TOTH guys here.
Is it okay to tell friends and family that your MLTR is your girlfriend? My MLTR and I refer to each other as boyfriend and girlfriend to prevent other people “attacking”,”questioning” or giving us drama on our open relationship. We recently had The Talk and everything is going great! How do you handle this?
Regarding point 4: do women even want to have more than one man who they have emotional feelings for? What is your experience on this? I can’t imagine a woman being happy while calling two men her “boyfriend”. She’d have to deal with all kinds of drama from family and friends if this was the case.
@RandomJin
“do women even want to have more than one man who they have emotional feelings for?”
Generally no-most women when given the Open relationship option will still only be with one guy. They are wired differently than us and their sex drive is much more cyclical.
One of the biggest argument men have against open relationships is not being able to let their woman fuck other guys. Honestly, they won’t even cash that chip in very often if at all if they’re happy with you. Men are the ones who are horny most of time and like sexual variety. After a few years together, they may go fuck another guy out of the typical boredom they feel but so what?
Also, two more questions: Do you verbalize/explain the term “MLTR” to your MLTRs after The Talk or does she simply call you her boyfriend?
Do you openly talk about topics like open relationships/pickup/game/how attraction works etc (and all other related topics you cover in your blog) with MLTRs and FBs if they are curious and want to know about it after you’ve had The Talk?
Ohhhh shit, I always get a slew of questions when I write articles like this. Here we go…
That depends on the woman, specifically how extroverted she is, how many friends she has, how hot she is, and how high her sex drive is. So it varies greatly based on whom you choose.
If she’s an average looking introvert with a low sex drive, she probably won’t be fucking anyone, at least for a every long time. If she’s super hot, has a super high sex drive, has tons of friends, and is the life of the party, she’ll probably be banging some guy(s) on the side regularly. (I love it how guys will get monogamous girlfriends like this, then become shocked when she cheats on them. Dumbasses.)
I don’t like fucking professional hookers, but I have given serious thought to switching over to paid sugar babies for 100% of my FBs, yes. (It’s almost the same thing but not quite.) Yes, I think that’s a valid option for higher income men who can easily afford such a thing, for the exact reasons you stated.
With me doing them? No. Sex feels really good to me already and I don’t really need any improvements there.
With women doing them, yes, and they do make a difference during sex, yes. Kinda cool. Very few women are going to take the time to do these though, and as an Alpha 2.0 I’m never going to make a woman do them.
As I’ve said about 1000 times, your drama will go up (at least a little) if you move in with a woman, and your overall freedom will go down (at least a little) when you move in with a woman, even if it’s a perfectly executed OLTR.
If you are unhappy living alone, or feel a sense in unfulfillment or emptiness by living alone, particularly as you creep over age 35 and then 40, then moving in with someone correctly (a well executed OLTR) is a correct thing to do for your long-term happiness, since even with the minor increases in drama you will offset those negatives enough to have a net gain in long-term happiness, provided you do EVERYTHING correctly, which most men DON’T, including woman-experienced men. Men move in with women under structures encouraged by Societal Programming, not long-term masculine happiness. These SP structures are literally designed to increase the amount of drama, conflict, and problems you will experience living with a woman. Thus, most men do this wrong.
The issue is most men, once over the age of 35 or 40, are indeed going to feel a little less happy in their lives if they live completely alone at all times, even if they have FBs and MLTRs up the wazoo. Not all, but most.
I will be documenting every step of the process when Pink Firefly moves in with me, to show how these relationships are done correctly. And yes, even though I will do everything correctly, I expect some problems, particularly in the early phases. My net gains in happiness should increase though. And if they don’t, I’ll work hard to make sure they do. If they still don’t after my hard work, I will have failed and she’ll move out. It’s that simple.
Then you are doing this wrong. Living with 12 fucking women in the last 17 years? Are you fucking kidding me? No wonder you hate it. Your problem is not “women” or “living with someone.” It’s YOU!
Do you know how many women I’ve lived with in the past 45 years? ONE! See a difference?
That’s not the answer to long-term happiness for the typical man over 35-40. Instead of living alone for the rest of your life, the answer is to learn how to live with a woman in a happy way, which CLEARLY you have not done.
I’ve already written about that many times and in great detail. Go through the archive.
Sean has lived with 12 women in 17 years, thus is not the kind of man to take context from regarding this issue.
Also read this.
Me too. It happens every day.
By all means, have a main girl, but don’t have a fucking girlfriend (OLTR or LTR) until you’re 35 or so.
Of course it is. TotH guys will need to do this, pretty much forever, to maintain long-term happiness. In an MLTR it’s no big deal. In an OLTR, they’ll have to carefully integrate this into the relationship with her, since this will annoy some women (other women won’t care, or won’t care as much).
Yes but ONLY as an exception to the rule and ONLY if your frame 100% rock-solid and you’re doing EVERYTHING ELSE correctly. Years ago I had a high-end MLTR who I called my “girlfriend” to my family, but that was me, Blackdragon, doing everything right in addition to all this.
It’s possible and they can, depending on the woman. This is allowed with MLTRs, so don’t worry about it.
If you’re talking about OLTR, my (substantial) anecdotal experience and observations clearly indicate that women only do this when their boyfriend/husband is being an asshole, distant, or emotionally cold. If their relationship with their husband/BF is great, then they will either not fuck other guys, or at worst, will occasionally fuck other guys who are strictly FBs (no emotion beyond friendships) and not want anything more from them.
In other words, in my opinion at least, if your OLTR wants another emotional relationship, you’re doing something wrong. (Again, this is OLTR only; MLTRs can do whatever they want.)
Correct, a woman doesn’t want two boyfriends. That’s not what I’m talking about.
This is generally true with most women over a long-term relationship, yes. Women’s sexual desires don’t work like men’s do; so many men don’t understand this.
Neither. No woman is allowed to call me boyfriend unless she’s an OLTR (which is after the OLTR Talk, not The Talk; those are two different things).
I don’t let MLTRs call me boyfriend unless it’s a very rare exception to the rule. I’ve had numerous MLTRs post-The Talk and I only let one call me “boyfriend.” The Talk has nothing to do with boyfriend/girlfriend. That’s the OLTR Talk.
Only if they ask about those topics and they almost never do.
I have shown scores of my FBs and MLTRs this blog over the years. At least 80% of them shrug and forget about it within 20 seconds. Women really don’t give a shit about this stuff.
hahaha dude, no I have lived with women a total of 12 years out of the past 17 years… a girlfriend from 22 to 26, a wife from 30 to 38, and a gf briefly more recently for 6 months… I am about to be 40
So if an MLTR is not allowed to call you her boyfriend, how does she “explain” the open relationship to other people? For example when you’re out partying with your MLTR and some friends of hers, questions like “How long are you togehter?”, “Are you both together?”, “Is this your boyfriend?” will inevitably come up. How do you deal with this?
My MLTR told me after The Talk that she always had trouble anwering questions like that and that she didn’t know what to say.
BD
I sent you an email about this but will post it here, so others can chip in as well.
A question about a potential banana skin, before we even get to the FB or MLTR stage.
A bit off topic so forgive me.
How would handle the following situation, You invite a lady round to your house for dinner for date 2. She declines and says “it’s too early to visit each other’s houses “, but she is still interested in meeting again but it’s on her terms! ie. public place. This has happened 4 times to me in last 6 months. All 4 were over 30 which may explain it. Do I make a joke about their response and push again for them coming round , then if still no, go for coffee for date 2, and try one last time for dinner at mine on date 3. So give them one more chance! If she says no, then hard next ?
Or push for it and if they keep saying no, hard next ?
@RandomJin’s comment:
I too have questions about dealing with questions about my current relationship as an OLTR. My SO is VERY sensitive about it getting out as common knowledge that he is not only in a long term relationship, but a live in as well. He doesnt want it getting back to social circles he runs in and subsequently making getting new women an issue because they heard hes with someone. What a lying player, you know..lol
But i find at times, people are insistent about digging for information. Often its easily brushed off, jokingly laughed off with a clever quip, or answered sarcastically. But I’ve had a few times they just will not drop it. And being honest, i have no problems answering at that point. They just don’t like what they are about to hear!
Great post, as usual.
I guess I fall into your category of having multiple FBs and an OLTR. My OLTR is pretty highly sexed and I know she sees at least one other guy on the side, which I’m relaxed about.
But as well as two FBs that I see at the moment every week or nearly, there are some others that I see very sporadically. One doesn’t live in the same city as me but often gets in touch when she is visiting, which seems to be four or five times a year. Although the others live nearby, we usually hook up only occasionally – for example one FB I met up with for sex last week I hadn’t seen since June or July. I guess you’d still call these occasional repeaters fuck buddies?
I have to confess that I also enjoy one-night stands. Mostly I do ONS when I’m travelling and I know there’s no chance of seeing the woman again. I enjoy them not just for the sex (which can vary from excellent to ho-hum) but because I enjoy the chase and it’s satisfying knowing that you’ve taken a woman that you don’t know into your bed, or she has let me into hers, just for sex and absolutely nothing else. But most of my FBs started out as ONS, and I guess relying too much on ONS would get pretty tiring. Not sure how ONS fit into the patterns described above?
Sorry; misread. I’ve got a bad cold and I’m not on my game.
You can’t count the monogamous wife for 8 years. Of course that will suck. I did that too. The girlfriend for four years I assume was traditional and monogamous too.
So my point stands; you did this wrong, just like 90% of men, including me. The problem is not co-habitation. The problem is how you do it.
That’s their problem. You have complete control over your mouth and the sounds it makes.
Yes.
Those are allowed in an OLTR.
You’re a Thrill of the Hunt guy. Perfectly fine.
Perhaps I will reconsider cohabitation after I see how it works for you 🙂 At this point I just want to run my household exactly how I see fit and have all the freedom and personal space I need. It just seems like such a compromise to give that up.
“But i find at times, people are insistent about digging for information.”
This is so true. They also ask lots of questions, including even ‘So when are you and X getting married’. This one is easy enough to counter, esp as I’m only 26. But really BD is right – in the end it’s their problem if they don’t like the amount of information that I divulge, or its contents.
“You’re a Thrill of the Hunt guy.”
This is true up to a point – I do love the hunt. But in the end if I had to choose between the hunt and a regular supply of sex from fuck buddies I’d go for the latter every time. Also worth remembering that a large proportion (not all) of my FBs started out as ONS. Of course, ONS that I have when I’m travelling, whether for work or pleasure, can’t be converted into FBs, and I know that (and so does she, for what that’s worth).
You should tell readers you had already married and divorced at a very under-30 age, though :D.
Boyfriends they have never liked/like no more, goes without saying!
The more sexually (and mentally) discontent she is, the more passionately and joysomely she’s gonna be with you.
Lol, I hope she won’t be able to … avail herself of one or another law to throw YOU out.
I know that within the correct frame they can, just like you can.
But what kind of unicorn is that?
I have known women in spades, and all I have seen as for their “having feelings for two” is when they go up a level switching to someone they like more, or they still keep in contact with the one they like less for tactical reasons (they’ll love him again if the one they like more leaves), … never as a stable situation.
Yes. It’s a huge compromise.
Again, the issue is how net happy you’ll be in your older years.
That’s still nothing that looks like an OLTR.
And the fact I was married and divorced is very well known.
Not an issue because I will be doing this.
As someone who is still a newbie (and who went back to 0 women from 1 as 0 is better than 1), I think the 2 MLTR configuration is most appealing. I am very busy, definitely more romantic, and have a very high drama tolerance level (although it’s coming down as I age). I like spending nights together, and from the couple times I’ve done it, I very much like having sex with multiple women at the same time.
However, the warning I quoted above was in that section. I guess that the concept of having sex with a FB isn’t disturbing so much as strange. I just don’t see the motivation for a woman to be in such a relationship, except if she is cheating on someone. As long as she’s discreet, I have no problems fucking someone’s girlfriend, although wife would probably be a step too far.
Am I wrong on this? Are FB‘s almost always someone else’s girlfriend?
“Are FB’s almost always someone else’s girlfriend?”
In my experience, sometimes but not always.
And you need to remember that not everyone who is apparently in a girlfriend–boyfriend relationship, or who says she is, is necessarily in such a relationship as most people usually define it. There’s a lot of pressure to have, or to pretend to have, a “traditional” girlfriend–boyfriend set-up, but not everyone who seems to be in such a set-up necessarily is.
I know – I fell by default into such a set-up when I was 16 and almost again when I was 22. It didn’t work well for me, certainly not when I was that age, but there you go.
You don’t see the motivation for a woman to have an enjoyable, purely sexual relationship? Then you still have a lot of false SP regarding women and need to re-evaluate your view.
No. My rough estimate based on my experience is about 30-40% of the time they have boyfriends, 50-60% of the time they’re dating around but have no boyfriend, and around 10% they’re not seeing anyone but you.
Danke.
While true, I also need to aim more correctly. I have dated down far too often. When there is too much of a mismatch, I think women are more likely to push for more. At least twice in the past decade I’ve been with women who are objectively not going to do any better than me. No wonder they got clingy! The dynamic with my last serious LTR was totally different, but she is a smokeshow half my age. Now that I have a full view of this, I need to act correctly.
BD,you have a rule of not kissing on the first date. What if they force you? If they turn their cheek to you and push it against your lips. Is that a fail? In other words does it hurt your chances to get the lay on the second date?
Hey, been reading for a few months and love it.
I’m in a de facto monogamous relationship and I’m done with the drama. I want to convert this so I can keep her “in the loop” and sleep with her without all the boyfriend/girlfriend shit. Which book can best advise me on what I need to do? The converting marriage one? FYI, I’ve been resisting her calls for boyfriend/girlfriend title and she’s been bitching about me only wanting sex (lol) which is much different than before. I feel like that’s a good thing but am at a juncture where I need to play things right.
Love your stuff, current state of relationships today is sad.
Confirmed: having an OLTR negatively impacts reading comprehension : ) (the very first question also got misread)
Well perhaps we should wait till we are 65?
I’m a girl and I certainly don’t want to have emotional feelings for more than one guy and also I cannot be sleeping with multiple guys at a time. I know there are girls that have a boyfriend that they have sex with while cheating on them with another guy. They just go back and forth having sex with both of them. I have no idea how a woman can do that, but that’s just me. I tried once and I couldn’t bring myself to do it; it just didn’t feel natural. I also don’t understand how a woman can be sleeping with any guy and not have emotional feelings for him, again that’s just me. I can understand guys doing this because it just seems to be male instinct.
BD, i am currently seeing a BPD girl for the past 5 months as MLTR with a fb on the side. What is your take on girls with BPD? (She is 23 years old). Should I only see her as FB or is seeing her as MLTR okay? The sex is amazing. And I like her crazy upswings. She has only given me drama once. A softnext of only a day was enough to eliminate drama from then on. Thanks
Dude, that’s a no brainer. Take her to your place, escalate and put pipi into vagina! No need for a second date if she’s taking the initiative.
I understand this is BD’s blog, not mine. So he has every right to tell me to shut the fuck up. But unless and until he does just that, I am making it my personal goal to persistently and mercilessly call this shit out every time I see it here for the purposes of ridicule, education, and the articulation of a pro-seduction and pro-alpha mindset, as distinguished from this garbage:
I have three thoughts:
1. Paying a woman money for sex is an inherent act of second class citizenship on the part of the male, as well as an implicit surrender to female supremacy. It implies that a woman’s time is more valuable than the man’s and that the female vagina has superior status to the male penis. In other words, it implies that you’re a beta. Further, it vindicates the conservative/chivalrous, no less than the radical feminist, belief that men are heterosexuals while women are asexuals, thus resulting in the woman requiring financial compensation for her “generous” act of sex while the man receives a one way gift of sexual gratification. This should make every alpha male, as well as every inspiring seducer, physically sick, as the red pill seduction community is based on one solid and revolutionary premise – women are heterosexuals, and therefore, deserve only sex for sex!
2. Beta males, and others on this blog, have said that you always pay a woman in some manner. The only question is whether you will pay her with money or with time. For certain men, it is argued, time is more valuable than money, so it is better to just throw money at women instead of devoting your precious time. The problem with this argument is that time can buy you the one thing that money can’t – a woman’s sexual sincerity! Prostitutes, porn stars, strippers, gold diggers, and provider hunters are nothing but actresses. They are fakers who embrace you in a Hollywood-type fantasy world in which they flatter your ego with fake sexual reactions, while your job is to stay plugged in to this fake matrix and allow yourself the delusion (if only for the moment) that her sexual responses are genuine.
3. The purpose of this seduction community is to take the red pill, unplug from the matrix of fakery, and seek truth, sincerity, and sexual honesty from women at every stage of every sexual interaction while leaving the betas and those still plugged into the matrix their comforting deception, secure in the knowledge that they are the losers and we are the winners because we receive genuine sex from women and are fully awake to the delusions of society!
Conclusion: Talk of prostitution and other beta garbage is fundamentally anti-seduction and anti-red pill, and thus has no place here!
Sure, if you can get passed the fact that they’re faking everything in order to give you the illusion of being an alpha male. Here, we strive for the real thing, not your blue pill quick fixes, which always contradict reality with the explicit fictions they present.
This is subjective. Women who aren’t prostitutes aren’t necessarily genetically cursed with inferior looks. And genetic curses aren’t magically lifted when they decide to go the asexual, or “generous lesbian” route and charge for sex.
No sincerity. No humanity. No real heterosexuality.
LOL! I’m laughing because I’ve been sleeping with various married women, on and off, for a little over 7 years now. They are the most discrete women in the world. Discretion is the foundation of the red pill “secret society.” When you show a woman that you’re cool, she will teach you levels of discretion that would make the CIA blush. This is true even of single women who live in oppressive conservative or feminist/SJW communities and want to keep their sexual activities on the down low (or women who still live with their parents).
But the FBs that I do see are sincerely horny for me. Without this female horniness, and the evolutionary and spiritual principles that that horniness imply, everything having to do with sex becomes worthless.
Lawyer’s note: Not that anyone cares, but encouraging criminal activity is itself a crime and not protected speech, as articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court’s “bad tendency rule.” Encourage prostitution at your own legal risk. You guys may be anonymous, but BD and his blog is not.
JudoJon: if you do it right and you set a woman as FB instead of an MLTR then a woman will be happy with that as she gets amazing sex that’s rare for her. The problem is how you set her up.
Bulma most likely its because you havent been with a man that gives you the feeling of being relaxed around him and sex feels natural with him all the while being emotional with some other guy. Its not that you cant do it, its because most likely you didnt meet men who got that out of you.
By the way, BD, how do you end up with FBs that have boyfriends?
You’re consistently ignoring the fact that even if women are heterosexual (they are), an average man’s ability to raise his SMV to a super hot woman’s (by improving his looks, situation, game, etc) is not infinite. Therefore, there are gonna be situations where, red pill or not, the man is the reacher and the woman is the settler in a given sexual interaction. Which means that yeah, he’s paying in one way or another. It isn’t pedestalization to admit it, it’s realizing facts about SMV inequality. Just like athletics: anyone can improve their athleticism, but average or bad genetics prevent you from reaching world class, for example. I don’t see anything inherently bad about a man who (after improving all he could short of surgery) is a 5.5 in looks paying a 9.5 to have sex with him, directly or indirectly through sugar daddying. Hell, even when you’re being alpha – the ultimate tool to level the playing field -, you are in fact paying in a subtle form of currency: the vagina tingles that you give the chick through your alpha presence.
Dude. You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.
Yes, but it will help you more if you’re currently living with her. Otherwise get the other relationship book, or both.
No, being sick does. Yesterday while answering comments I was sleepy, dizzy, and coughing up a lung. Next time I get sick I’m going to have to refrain from answering comments for a few days.
My correct answer this time:
The answer is, as many times as you want, based on your schedule, sex drive, and how often your OLTR chooses to fuck you (and whether or not she’s trying to give you “wife sex”). How you structure that kind of thing in an OLTR is completely up to you.
Obviously if you live with her, doing that is going to be more complicated, but there is no set number you should strive for or expect. It’s all up to you.
That’s up to the individual man. In my view it should be at least 40, ideally. But the later the better, yes!
FB is okay, low-end MLTR is okay. High-end MLTR or OLTR is not okay.
Oh, I know!
That’s correct with hookers but not with sugar babies. Women on sugar daddy web sites are objectively hotter on average than women on normal dating sites. Now wait! For you online dating whiners: that doesn’t mean there aren’t super hot girls on normal dating sites; there are; you just have to hunt harder for them.
Yes, married women (but only if they’re older) or women with live-in boyfriends is another valid option, assuming you are very careful (and most men are not).
As I already said, about half of them have BFs to begin with. The other half eventually get them. My relationships are structured to last many years, so it’s just a matter of time before a non-BF FB gets a BF. All you have to do is wait.
They’re girls. Girls get boyfriends.
Good thread. I think the topic of what to do re. relationships status type social situations is especially annoying. I absolutely detest people asking “is that your girlfriend?” all the time. A blog post on this would be nice, although it really just comes down to telling people that they are being nosy and it’s none of their business in what ever way you’re most comfortable with. Conformity’s a bitch though, and that’s part of the reason guys rather suffer down the road than deal with awkward moments such as these in the present.
Why is it sad? This is the best era for relationships if you’re a man that has his shit together.
Thanks for sharing your cohabitation anecdotes. I hope that the third time’s a charm! Although, I’ve come to realize that if you don’t want kids and never get lonely living by yourself, there is very little point to it. It only serves as an (forced) artificial extender of the relationship, that feels good for a little while longer, but with switched power dynamics. The other downside is that you hang on longer than you normally would had you not been living together, like a buddy of mine that couldn’t quite kick out his girlfriend after they were broken up for months. Talk about an awkward situation. That being said, I can’t wait to see how BD handles his OLTR moving in, as it promises to be quite a learning experience, and hopefully as entertaining as a soap opera.
I dated a borderline girl for a couple of months. Yeah, soft nexting may have helped for a while, had I known about it then, but you’re never going to keep BPD girls toeing the line long term. Enjoy the great sex and have a parachute always at hand.
Read this, including the comments, for some good insights:
https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/5-ways-to-avoid-becoming-involved-with-another-crazy-emotionally-abusive-borderline-or-narcissistic-woman/
Exactly the right mindset to have. I think we all know that the “crazies” are great in bed, but they are anything but stable. Having a serious relationship of any kind is setting yourself up for problems, even if you terminate the relationship afterwards.
Don’t ever let the great sex fool you!
@ Jack in the Box
How is paying for sex “beta’? It’s no different than any other service. You sleep with married women but pass judgement on men buying the occasional piece? That’s rich! While I suppose you could make the case that some men can’t get any, but if they can’t, why judge them for paying? It’s just macho grandstanding to slam some guys who have bad luck/no game.
I tried a pro for the first time while on vaca in Europe last year in a place where it’s legal and safe. It was great, and very reasonably priced – less than the average cost of meeting/drinking/seducing an American woman, and she was certainly hotter than most accessible women found in my neighborhood.
Your red pill theorizing is getting ahead of reality and starts to mirror the feminist insanity that got us into this mess in the first place. Legal pross would be great for men in the U.S. needing a confidence boost after a breakup, during a dry spell, or just for kicks.
Do you consider masturbation “beta”? Geez. I imagine if I want steak I gotta go out and bow hunt the bison myself for fear of being called a pussy in some circles.
Bullshit. Red pilled men use spears to hunt mastodons. 😀
Jack opposes it on philosophical grounds, much of which I agree with.
My view is that it is beta if that’s the only way you can get reliably laid. So some beta pussy who can’t get laid with anyone, or anyone hot, unless he pays for it, is very bad, for a number of reasons.
However, if you know how to get laid, easily and reliably, without paying for it at all, and do that a lot, and then later in life decide it’s better time management to just pay for it (provided you can easily afford it, which is a big “if”), then I don’t see any problems with it.
@JudoJohn
I climb 20 flights of stairs using only my prostate and prefer to wrestle my sashimi right out of the cold sea right after. It’s a thing I do in the mornings before driving the Maserati at high speed through cramped old city streets on the way to the office. 🙂
@BPD Commenters
Riddle me this: how is it more “alpha” to put up with BPD drama for hot sex rather than just renting a hottie for an hour who will do whatever you want? I have friends who date these loons that I would just pump and dump and jerk off about later.
@ Jack Outside the Box
As for the “level of sincerity”, that’s another load of laughs. Any sexually confident man who’s had his share has certainly banged women who were just going through the motions, and we’re all familiar with “wife sex/guilt sex”, so it’s not like every encounter with a woman is going do be some alpha conquest chest-pounding event.
“1. Paying a woman money for sex is an inherent act of second class citizenship on the part of the male, as well as an implicit surrender to female supremacy. It implies that a woman’s time is more valuable than the man’s and that the female vagina has superior status to the male penis. In other words, it implies that you’re a beta. Further, it vindicates the conservative/chivalrous, no less than the radical feminist, belief that men are heterosexuals while women are asexuals, thus resulting in the woman requiring financial compensation for her “generous” act of sex while the man receives a one way gift of sexual gratification. This should make every alpha male, as well as every inspiring seducer, physically sick, as the red pill seduction community is based on one solid and revolutionary premise – women are heterosexuals, and therefore, deserve only sex for sex!”
Ok, now this is interesting. It’s somehow “feminist” to rent a pro instead of participating in the morally sanctioned dating ritually? Even if you’re Leykis 101 and go cheap/go Dutch, etc, you’re still spending time and energy pursuing, which in the end is tradcon male behavior even if you aren’t trying to marry the woman. What about kink or stuff like anal that many women simply won’t do? Why not rent it?
I get it that you alpha 5.0’s or whatever are looking to get men off of the video games and porn and out scoring with women and improving their lives, but don’t pretend that most women aren’t playacting just like any prostitute. The orgasms may be real with the new fling, but after the glow wears off in a few weeks/months she may not care that much about your interests ,or share your values even while she’s smiling like a 60’s stewardess.
BD, I dig your blog and have learned a lot here, so don’t take this as some kind of bitch session. Thanks for the great articles.
Ok, but why do “alphas” hate it so much to admit that pretty much no-one can fuck with a top-escort level beauty for free?
“Good looking” (hot, you say) is one thing, high-range escort looking is ANOTHER.
I say this while I have never paid anyone (but, while I have never thought of borrowing a normal prostitute, the $500-1000 for a night ones, well, they always tickle my imagination (although knowing they wouldn’t be enjoying it has always stopped me).
@Brick:
If people here continue calling me this, I will begin reporting it to BD as an ad-hominem. And you know how he feels about ad hominems.
If you have to ask this question, you obviously haven’t read a single word of what I wrote.
Wow! I don’t even know how to respond to such insanity. Most services involve something external to both the service provider and the service receiver (a product being sold or a service being performed, like your car being washed). That type of business doesn’t require any human intimacy or mutual work.
Most normal people are turned on by the mutuality of sex. When you masturbate, I doubt you’re fantasizing about a cold fish who’s just laying there and asking “are you done yet?” With a prostitute, you know she’s just faking. In other words, she’s plugging you into a fictional matrix that is inherently based on deception – a deception that her “business” requires. In order for you to enjoy it, you must lie to yourself and accept the fantasy. You’re like the character Cipher from the Matrix movie. His arguments are identical to your own, which is chilling.
The alpha 2.0 lifestyle – and the red pill in general – are about living a life of truth, while the betas stay in the matrix.
How is that rich? I fail to see the hypocrisy. Looking down on prostitution is a red pill judgment (which I have thoroughly explained to you above and in my other post). Judging me (or anyone else) for sleeping with married women is blue pill, since it clings to the illusion of monogamy and fails to acknowledge the sexual enlightenment that is implied by the act of fucking a married woman (she’s more sincere with me than with her husband many times).
If you read carefully what I wrote, I said I’m looking down on the promotion of prostitution here on this blog, in the seduction community, and in the red pill sphere. Prostitution is fine for betas. I’m a libertarian who wants full legalization. But here, we’re better than that!
Less than 20 dollars? Wow! That was a cheap whore! LOL! But in any case, like I mentioned, when you have sex with a real woman (even if it’s just a one night stand and you don’t even know each other’s names), the sex is sincere. She really is attracted to you and is screaming in pleasure. That’s all I require – mutual sexual attraction leading to genuine sex. Not the lies and fakery that you promote.
Although I certainly have physical standards, I’ll take a slightly less hot woman over a hooker (read: actress) any day. I don’t want to play act or fantasize (if I wanted that, I’d masturbate or watch porn). I want the real thing. And I certainly don’t want to pay for the acting class as if she’s in the superior position. Sorry if you can’t understand why that’s beta.
Just like your implicit condemnation of sleeping with married women, the above stinks of tradcon-ism. The only feminist insanity that I’m against is the sex-negative man-hating and heterophobia, which has become the dominant feminist ideology. But the sex-positive aspects of feminism (which brought us the sexual revolution) I wholeheartedly support. The problem is that that feminism has been dead since the 80s. The current feminism is the exact opposite.
For the record, feminists today oppose prostitution for the same reason they oppose real sex. They think all heterosexual sex is rape due to “power imbalances” in a patriarchy. That’s not me, dude. I believe prostitution is female supremacy.
Fine. I support legalization. But leave that to the betas who “need a confidence boost” after breaking up with their mono girl, or whatever else you said. My only point was – leave this shit out of the seduction/red pill sphere because we’re supposed to aspire to superior things. That’s all.
Actually yes. If you are a sexually successful man with three or four women on his rotation, I can’t imagine having the need to masturbate. I haven’t done it in years! If you’re going through a temporary dry spell, maybe. But if this dry spell is prolonged, I’ll question your alpha credentials. Masturbation does indeed kill motivation, takes away your masculine energy, and replaces testosterone, aggression, and pheromones with anxiety, laziness, sleepiness, and an androgynous vibe.
LOL! These analogies are absurd. The most precious resource is truth (sincerity) followed closely by time. Going to the grocery store saves time (which is essential for happiness) but not at the expense of sincerity. There is no deception or acting when it comes to buying a stake. And saving time and minimizing risk is what the alpha 2.0 is all about.
@Jack Outside the Box
Chill, dude, sometimes we’re multitasking and screw up names. I wasn’t insulting your handle. No disrespect.
Married guys are gonna get side tail, same with guys in LTR‘s that aren’t putting out enough. Often it doesn’t matter if the side tail is into it or not. So pros are a great solution. As far as $20 for a bang? Does that include gas/train fare, time spent, etc. The pros I encountered ran about 50 euro per half hour.
As far as pros being actresses, well, I’ve dated actresses. You’re right. Please notice, that many women model their personas after tv characters and emulate their body language. Even if you aren’t dating an actress, you’re still often dating an “actress” so to speak.
“Actually yes. If you are a sexually successful man with three or four women on his rotation, I can’t imagine having the need to masturbate. I haven’t done it in years! If you’re going through a temporary dry spell, maybe. But if this dry spell is prolonged, I’ll question your alpha credentials. Masturbation does indeed kill motivation, takes away your masculine energy, and replaces testosterone, aggression, and pheromones with anxiety, laziness, sleepiness, and an androgynous vibe.”
Well, hats off to you. You’ve convinced me to to Alpha 3.0: I’m having my dick removed and bronzed. Gonna send it my ex and demand she use it to climax. My virility will live forever!
@Brick:
Yeah, and it sucked.
Right. And that’s what we want to avoid, hence avoiding prostitution.
Like BD says, make her cum every time. If she’s just “going through the motions” with you, you’re either a beta, or she’s a type of woman that most alphas should dump.
No, it’s not feminist. Feminists think it’s rape and male supremacy (I think it’s female supremacy). What I said was it perpetuates the traditional conservative AND feminist lie that female heterosexuality is a myth. It allows feminists to say, “if female heterosexuality is real, how do you explain prostitutes or other women, like housewives and gold diggers, who charge for it? Can’t you men see that all sex is either force or coercion due to men withholding from women the ability to gain real power in the world?”
When women were granted the legal right to work in the 60s and 70s, radical feminists predicted that every woman on the planet would be a lesbian by the year 2000. Instead, it freed female heterosexuality and led to the first scientific articles in the 70s proclaiming that the female orgasm is real. Feminists licked their wounds and now explain female heterosexuality in terms of “psychological grooming” at an early age, instead of just merely as financial coercion. The animal kingdom is something they completely ignore.
I am the opposite of a feminist. Otherwise known as a sane person. It’s not feminist to pay hookers. Feminists are against it, but for the opposite reason that I’m against it. And feminists want it to remain criminalized, whereas I don’t.
What? I’m against morally sanctioned traditional dating! That’s very beta as well. LOL!
Yes. I agree with him about going Dutch and being super cheap, but I don’t agree with him when he says he’s against everything, except one night stands. I’m pretty much the opposite. While I don’t think ONSs are beta (unlike prostitution, which is), I personally don’t like ONSs. I prefer to fuck the same woman over and over again (and other women as well). I also disagree with him when he essentially validates the conservative/feminist position by saying that “men want sex and women want money.” He’s expressed many times that women just fuck for a “meal ticket” while minimizing the existence of female sexuality. So I have lots of problems with him. But yeah, going Dutch and cheap is what I agree with him on, definitely.
It’s called seduction.
Huh? Seduction is “tradcon male behavior?” Um, no, it’s not, lol. The woman is spending the same amount of time and energy as I am. Sometimes, she even wants me in her bed faster that me! This has nothing to do with tradcon behavior.
Find women who will. My girl loves anal and she can be kinky at times. There’s an entire subculture that indulges in BDSM. Find them! With the Internet, you have no excuse man! Find high sex drive women who are sincerely into what you’re into and dump the rest! That’s what I did! I wouldn’t tolerate a woman who refused anal or said anything even remotely sex-negative.
I was once on a first date with a woman. We got into sex talk and I told her that a friend of mine was living with two women (they were both his girlfriends), and they had regular threesomes (this was true, by the way). Her response: “He’s a pig.” My reaction: After the date concluded, I deleted her number from my phone and resolved to never speak with her again.
In an age and mindset of abundance, there is no need to waste time on mainstream prudes. You’re talking from a position of scarcity.
Two reasons:
1. I don’t have a scarcity mentality when it comes to women wanting to do it enthusiastically for free.
2. The idea that a woman is performing a generous service for me in bed is a female supremacist idea which gives her all the power.
They aren’t. Unless they are with beta providers (beta boyfriends/husbands).
Then in a few weeks/months we’ll stop seeing each other. Although, in my experience, if she has a high sex drive, or if I’m fucking other women, the attraction is still sincerely there for years. You shorten it by going monogamous. I’ve been fucking my girl for five years roughly, while fucking other women. She’s fucking other men as well and she’s still horny. She has a very high sex drive though.
I’m not sure what “share your values” is supposed to mean. She’s not a clone of me and we have disagreements, but we still agree on the basic stuff, especially when it comes to sexual lifestyle.
@JOTB
I’m not super handy. If I need repairs, I hire somebody to do it. If I need a massage (non sexual) I buy one. Do you see where I’m going with this? Yes, at the time when I need a plumber or a massage or a large pizza, there is a scarcity of said things at that moment and I’m willing to pay for them.
In an era where smartphones/social media/pc hysteria has drastically reduced the accessibility of women in public, I think it’s a bit harsh to characterize any guy cutting corners with a pro as a “beta loser”.
Could be age, but I gotta tell you: picking up women in the States today vs 5-10 years ago is much more difficult. The seduction part isn’t hard once you’re face to face, but the nonchalant small talk open in major cities is a different, tougher game now. Filling in the gaps by renting until the right one(s) – for a few weeks or months, at least – turn up seems actually pretty low stress and the only issue is legality.
@Brick:
Married guys are beta just by virtue of being married. I’m only attacking advocating prostitution for alphas. There’s been a disturbing trend within the seduction community to encourage prostitutes, not for betas or guys who can’t get laid, but for the winners as well. That’s where I start to have a problem. I want this shit gone from the red pill community.
Guys with monogamous girlfriends who aren’t “putting out” enough (your term “putting out” implies the old tradcon – women are generous asexuals and only men are heterosexuals – trope) are betas.
Further, guys with monogamous girlfriends who are “putting out” daily are also betas, just by virtue of being in a monogamous relationship. So yeah, let them get hookers. All I ask is that that crap not be advocated here.
If a man is that far gone that it doesn’t matter to him if the woman is just laying there silent because she’s just a substitute for his hand, good for him. But don’t advocate that shit on a red pill seduction blog.
If a man is that far gone that he is willing to psychologically accept that the woman is the generous giver, who therefore should be financially compensated (dominant) and he is a grateful receiver, who therefore should financially compensate (submissive), good for him. But don’t advocate that shit on a red pill seduction blog.
Yes, for those married and/or monogamous betas that you listed. But don’t advocate that shit on a red pill seduction blog.
Great. If your time/convenience is more important to you than a sincere and mutual sex act with a woman, pay all the pros you like. Go for the sugar babies too. They know how to give you lots of fantasies via convincing role playing, I’m sure. For men like me who prefer reality, however, the emotional mutuality of the sex act and sincere sexual attraction from the woman is the only thing that gives sex its point. Under this scheme, even one night stands are fine as long as they are based on mutual sexual attraction, and therefore, a “sex for sex” mentality. Without this baseline of mutuality, sex becomes mechanical, cold, and empty. Even the best actress can’t erase the knowledge that I have in my head that I’m paying her and that she’s just pretending. No thanks.
Dude, you’re trying to define something out of existence via marginal, but persistent, increments. College professors and other intellectuals love doing this. With this technique, you can define the entire universe out of existence by blurring the definition between “something” and “nothing,” which several quantum physicists are trying to do. And yet, the universe is still here. Or is it?
The question before us is: How much of something can be taken away before it loses its “soul” or “sincere essence?” And how much can you take away from something while still retaining its essential nature?
The answer is different depending on the person and the different situation being addressed. Since the “sincere essence” of a social interaction is an emergent property (greater than the sum of its mechanical parts), answering the question requires intuition – intuition that is individually tailored to that specific situation.
So we can quibble about “degrees of sincerity” as it refers to long term girlfriends or even long term fuck buddies, and just what is the correct amount of sincerity that is required to prevent this thing from turning into a deceptive Hollywood farce. We may all have different lines on that front based on the uniqueness of the situation and what our intuitions are telling us about the woman’s overall attitude.
But I will say this: Prostitution is deliberately and maliciously based on purposeful sexual insincerity, with the “straight up” nature of the financial exchange confirming that beyond a doubt. So me being opposed to it is a no brainer. Whereas more gray areas – like my girlfriend having sex with me while she may not particularly feel like it right now, but wants to make me happy – require my intuition to be fully tuned into that situation, as I instinctively (not intellectually) judge her level of enthusiasm and horniness in order for the truth of the interaction to not lose an unacceptable amount of existence!
HAHA! Castrating yourself is omega – way worse than beta. I recommend against it, lol.
@Brick:
Sigh. I addressed this already. The things you described are NOT inherently pleasurable, but mechanical. This means, they are NOT inherently mental. This means that a machine can do it for you. This means that the human worker’s enthusiasm is irrelevant as long as his work is physically precise.
But sex is pleasurable. All things which are pleasurable are dependent on mental mindset (both yours and those of the people who are physically close to you in terms of either enhancing or ruining your mood). Therefore, mutual enthusiasm becomes relevant for the sake of quality, as well as power dynamics (is someone paying the other or is it intimate/symbiotic?).
There is no psychological dimension to repairing a house. You don’t even have to be there. The guy can do it while you’re out and, as long as his job is precise, you don’t care if he was enthusiastic or not. It’s just a job. Same thing with a massage. The person massaging you may know all the physical pressure points to make your massage feel good. It’s scientific, impersonal, and does not require you or him to have any rapport or energy in order for the quality of the massage to be influenced in any way.
But sex – even casual sex – has a psychological dimension to it. The quality of the sex depends upon the mutual enjoyment of both participants because joint enthusiasm is really the source of the orgasm. It’s not about touching the “right pressure points.” It’s about establishing the correct psycho-spiritual mindset which provokes the strongest orgasm. Otherwise known as seduction.
I’m willing to bet that you’ve never masturbated while fantasizing about a woman who just lays there and asks if you’re done yet. I’ll also bet that you never fantasized about anyone repairing your house or giving you a non-sexual massage, because those things are all business, not pleasure. When pleasure is involved, the activity becomes mental, thus bringing the sincerity and enthusiasm of the partners into a place of relevance.
That’s because you can’t get them for free. But free sex is abundant. And since the source of the orgasm is the woman thinking you’re incredible, introducing money into that equation dilutes the source of the satisfaction of the activity.
Seriously, sex is precisely an escape from business and professional obligations, not an extension of them. Who cares if your pizza delivery dude hates his job? That doesn’t dilute the quality of the pizza. But a lack of enthusiasm on the part of the woman does indeed dilute the quality of sex because women aren’t objects, like houses, pizzas, or pressure points on your back. And paying her adds a level of self-righteousness and entitlement from her side, thus making true intimacy – even casual intimacy – impossible.
Internet dating has compensated for all of this.
Then stop cold approaching. Start going online (okcupid, pof, tinder, etc…). It’s faster, easier, more time management friendly, and more convenient, without sacrificing the woman’s sexual attraction for you. On dating sites, women are already in the mood to meet a man. Plus, you can tailor your online search to your personal preferences – poly, swinging, threesomes (3inder), casual, serious, BDSM, etc… You can’t do that with cold approaching!
Again, with the Internet, the whole world is at your fingertips. You have no excuse.
Online dating is also low stress. I’m not in the mood to approach strangers – who may or may not be thinking about dating or sex – either. I’d prefer to go somewhere where they are already trying to meet a man, and are in a sexual mood, hence online dating. You may have to pay the site, but you’re not paying the woman, so the sex will still be symbiotic (read: equal) and not parasitic (her the superior parasite and you the inferior host).
Or, if you’re like me, get a girl from the poly community and have her hook you up with other girls. Saves even more time.
oltr wonderful reminder that ppl, environments, objects, fabrics of society don’t last. I can’t internalize this myself. I think my problem is I never had a negative experience myself. I’ve had a strong number of adults with kids say the same quote oltr won’t last. But they’ve had their own exhusband refuse to give back the kids, a spouse who got over you in a matter of only months, a wife who refuses to share custody. I’ve not. Maybe not yet.
For your ideal list to be realized by many more the dynamics of society have to be shaken. It’s been rewritten that being a promiscuous gal is spectacular by groups of media, politicians which trickles down to neighbors.
Were another dynamic to shift, call it human resource manager and the employee. Gals are the HR managers and men are job hunters. That need to switch en mass in the coming future. In mass, Men ought to be HR managers and women the job hunters. It needs to be rewritten that men who crave attention can do so as women have for centuries. I think that when most men get too too much attention they’ll automatically start ignoring women completely and gain great interest in mundane objects instead over her. Think rock stars, famous sports stars.
Interesting comments about prostitution and paying for sex. Surely though the circumstances in which someone pays for sex are relevant here. (I’m not making any remarks about the “morality” of someone using prostitutes, merely why someone will pay for sex.)
For example, some men might pay for sex on a busy work trip, particularly one involving short stops in lots of cities, either for pure physical enjoyment of simply as a way of release. Similarly, some men will pay for sex if they’re temporarily unable to get sex from their usual channels, perhaps because of an unexpectedly busy work period or a family crisis or whatever. I have never done this, nor do I have any plans to, but I wouldn’t totally discount that I might do it in certain circumstances.
Other men find themselves stuck in an odd social setting (such as people on active service in the armed forces, or people working in mines in the middle of Australia or on oil rigs in the North Sea half-way between Scotland and Norway). Sometimes these men, mostly young, take these mining jobs etc as a way of making a lot of money quickly. I can well believe that when they hit the big smoke on leave one of their main concerns (probably often their primary concern) is to get laid assuredly and with a minimum of fuss. Having done that they can no doubt do other things they want to do, including possibly going out on the pull (and they’re much more likely to be successful if they don’t seem needy for sex).
Still other men might visit prostitutes as part of a group (end-of-season sports team party, stag night, etc).
Surely all these situations are different from a man who chooses that prostitutes will be his only, or his main, source of sex. This would seem to me to be very unsatisfying, although I suspect there are some busy, high-income men who might make it work for them after a fashion. No doubt if they pay enough they get some good sex, but I agree that I wouldn’t want to be one of them.
Prostitution is a complex issue and I don’t think any society has really arrived at a happy solution. Different situations have obtained at different times and in different places. Prostiution can be heavily proscribed, or it can be technically illegal but tolerated in some way or another, it can be legalised or decriminalised in at least some of its aspects, it can be fully legal, and sometimes it can be the subject of licensing and regulations in the same way as any other business. But even then it remains something that is not talked about much in “polite society” and it is often shoved under carpet.
@ Jack Outside the Box
Red pill. Blue pill. Seems you need a chill pill. It’s just a discussion here. You seem to get angry with people who wander from (your) strict path. Being angry and using bold italics seems a bit Alpha 1.0 to me.
@JOTB
Internet dating? I do it. Met 2 exes there, but still, it is hit-and-miss and Tinder is a laugh for men in my neck of the woods – and these guys do well for themselves, top 10% looks, etc. In a lot of places the male/female ratio has tilted the value of sex so high that average women are demanding top tier men only. It’s a bit smug for you to preach at other men about putting in more effort. I have landed some great great tail in my time, much of it while broke being a “creative type” so I don’t really care about some mythical “alpha man cred”.
A guy can spend all day on an app trying to get a match, text chess match if she responds, set up a meet, then get tail if all goes “just right” in her pretty little heart? That’s a huge amount of effort. These are often single moms who not only have at least minor body issues but all the other baggage to boot. I’m not necessarily MGTOW but I understand why those guys go that way. It’s funny that gay is ok, but the minute a straight guy stops caring about female validation or pursuit he’s a beta loser to a lot of people. Meh.
These manosphere sites are great for learning how to handle relationships and flings, no question, but a lot of guys, especially 35+, don’t need the validation as much any more and know the routine even if a hottie lands in their lap. BD’s site and Rollo’s are two of my faves, but it’s easy to fall into the trap of taking this shit too seriously. We are just talking about women, after all.
@ Jack
First of all, I commend you for your valiant, and seemingly zealous efforts. I agree with pretty much everything you say, but I also encourage you to accept others viewpoints. You are a proponent of free speech, are you not?
I also agree that paying for prostitutes is beta, but is it is also red pill. The guys that do it would rather cut out all of the Disney crap that married/monogamous betas go through and just pay.
I’m also kinda wondering if behind all of this alpha male posturing that maybe you might be
a little jealousthat betas don’t care if their wives aren’t attracted to them, or that “Johns” don’t care that they are reducing sex to a simple transaction; instead of actually caring about and assuming all of the work that comes with seducing a women naturally so that those women aren’t being deprived of more attractive men in their lives. Just saying because I’ve felt similarly. That is if I couldn’t seduce a women properly, while also knowing that she really likes me I would rather be a celibate MGTOW than a beta or John. Anyway, good discussion, and don’t stop posting here! You should make an archive like Ya Really, if you don’t already. http://yareallyarchive.com/Jack, for a change I 99% agree with you. Women who bang for money are not sincere and I only want sincere woman in my life. I am proud to say I have never paid a women for sex. When I’m 65 this will probably still be the same. In fact, I imagine I will prefer an elegant 55 year old to a hot 20 year old prostitute.
And for all you guys saying you can’t get a super hot girl without paying, one of the best nights of my life was when I got a super hot escort to go home with me by pure seduction and my looks (no money). In fact, after 2 drinks, she made sure I didn’t drink any more alcohol because she didn’t want me to get too drunk to fuck. It was great sex she was sincerely into me. What a beautiful night!
Wow I haven’t looked at this thread for a few days. Interesting discussion. This is one I’m particularly interested in though.
I actually love paid sex. Just not in the West anymore. No value for money. But Asian/Thailand. I love it.
I got into it before I became red pill or got into game when I was married. But I still like it now.
I’m a pleasure of sex guy. And I like new girls all the time. Plus I don’t really care if the girl is into it or not so long and she goes through the motions, lets me do what I want to her and she is hot.
Since I broke up with my ex-wife of 20 years and then my GF after that I worked hard on my game skills and have got to the point that I don’t have any problem getting hot girls through online or night game.
I’m currently in an OLTR with a 21yo Asian girl (I’m 48) who I picked up in a bar here using normal game. Before her I had a number of hot FB‘s I had in rotation and was doing pretty well at picking up ONS’s etc.
With her I’ve moved to the more swinging thing. We have sex pretty much every day and avg 2 new girls a week either in a 3some or 4some with other couples. Both of us like to get new girls all the time rather than re-visit girls we’ve already fucked. We also go out and pick up girls together in nightclubs etc. Or fuck her friends or girls she picks up.
So I’m/we are not short of opportunities to get sex for “free” so to speak. Last year I had sex 374 times with 47 different girls including my GF. About 30% were hookers. All hookers were 3somes or 4somes with the GF.
But I still love going to Thailand and going on a rampage. Her and I went there last year for 5 nights and fucked 10 very hot girls between 18-21 in that time (all 3somes or 4somes). It’s just fun that you can’t really have here in the same way. I know its probably not for everyone. But I love it. And for me its cheaper than going out here so its not really a money issue. Plus its a great holiday as well.
I went there by myself the year before for 15 nights and fucked 30 different girls (all between 18-21) like 60 times. It was off the hook. 5 of those nights I spent with one girl.
@JOTB
You seem to have a very emotionally invested philosophical position on this. That’s fine for you. Live however you want! But maybe not all guys are like you. Just a hunch?
PS. My GF is just as hot if not hotter than any hooker I’ve had sex with in Thailand.
Hi BD, I’m confused with this one. Do you mean it is perfectly acceptable and even expected that there is just emotional and romantic bond without sex with your OLTR?
I remember you said the relationship is practically over once sex stops.