43 Comments on “Beware of Internet Extremes”

1. About living with a woman:

   I have been thinking about the topic of living with an OLTR lately. And, I totally see the point of doing so, if a man wants to have kids with the OLTR. However, I clearly don’t want kids. Being childfree is clearly, for now (35yo), a choice which make me happy. Perhaps later when I am past 50, 60, I will change my mind? I dunno, but so far, I have absolutely zero desire for kids.

   So, I was wondering: what other ADVANTAGES and BENEFITS can a live in OLTR bring to a man’s life? I feel I might be missing a point somewhere… Could someone enlight me?

   I have actually even given more thoughts about just having an OLTR and not living with her. For a guy like me who doesn’t want kids, I could list only 3 tiny advantages (seemingly easier to manage having reasonably safe intercourse without condom, ability so see her more than once per week), but the disadvantages seem huge in comparison (only FB, more rules, possibly more dramas, less variety)… Here again, I seem to be missing an obvious point, because I read everywhere on the topic of OLTR and the common thing is *you get all the benefits of a girlfriend*, but those benefits are not really explicited: what are those benefits? (besides procreation in which I am not interested). I feel I might be somehow falling into the trap of extreme thinking. Please enlight me concerning the advantages and benefits of being *pair bonded* in and OLTR.

   Only in the article about the “9 possibilities for women life as men age”, BD says about having only MLTR and FB vs. OLTR or other type of *pair bonded* relationship, that people struggle with loneliness. I didn’t get it: why the guy with MLTRs and FBs would feel lonelier than the guy with OLTR and FBs? I mean he can fill his schedule with his MLTRs and FBs, not to mention his friends, so as to never be alone if this pleases him (yuk! I need some alone time!)… Or do you mean, as he age, he will loose the ability to connect with other women and thus will actually not have 0 MLTR and 0 FB no matter how hard he works on it? (that’s odd since the older we age the more women stay alive so the less male competition there is).

2. DO EXACTLY EVERYTHING BLACKDRAGON SAYS EXACTLY THE WAY HE DOES IT OR YOU’RE BORING LOW-SEX-DRIVE DISNEY 1.0 HATE BEING HAPPY.

   That thing where you put ALL CAPS in other people’s mouths, you should look around at the people you see doing that. See if you notice any traits they all have in common. You seem to be good at pattern matching.

3. RE: Media sources you left out the most important: Foreign. You need to look at other countries’ reporting on issues as well. We are definitely in a bubble wrt to the rest of the world and it can be tough to recognize unless you get the outside perspective.

4. For a guy like me who doesn’t want kids, I could list only 3 tiny advantages (seemingly easier to manage having reasonably safe intercourse without condom, ability so see her more than once per week),

   I had to read your comment 3 times….the first time, I swear I filled in one of the blanks….you only listed 2 advantages, which I would not call “tiny” to be fair. I agree with these two, and what I filled in when I read it was help with fucking housework….if not her directly, expenses will be lower and outside help could be brought in.

   I had a girl spend her gap year with me…..she didn’t work…..and she was obsessive. We ate extremely well, everything was always perfectly fucking tidy. It was wonderful. BD had a great piece on what it takes to age well as a man…..add in domestic duties , and things get very busy!

5. Sorry JudoJohn, it seems my edit didn’t work. The 3rd advantage I listed was:

   Being able to have sex, even if living far from cities, in a rural place, or tiny village, or while travelling over long periods of time in such very low desity or uninhabited places where it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to connect sexually with someone.

   I mean if you must do that then it’s a huge benefit. But I don’t feel I must do that, so for me it’s just a very oddball scenario.

   Thank you for your reply!
   I am an extreme minimalist, I live in small studio. I used to think this would help to have someone cooking and cleaning. But actually I can attest in my last de facto OLTR that no, it didn’t really help, even while she had some income of her own. Or she would have to participate economically to a similar level as I do.
   Here I can find very cheap food, cheap drop off laundery, and if I live alone it takes me 5 minute to clean my place, because no one is staying long enough to make significant mess.
   For the food she would truely bring value to me only if she was a vegan and niche expert in cooking some “Brendan Brazier’s vegan thrive diet” or “Patrik Baboumian, vegan strongman” types of food.

   Anything else? Please enlight me. Blackdragon maybe, since you seem to prefer not having more kids, and you are introvert, can you explicit what’s the benefits of OLTR for you? Of being *pair bonded*. How is that an advantage?

6. Being able to have sex, even if living far from cities, in a rural place, or tiny village, or while travelling over long periods of time in such very low desity or uninhabited places where it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to connect sexually with someone.

   Got it, and agreed entirely. I work remotely and could live anywhere I want…..I live in a very populated area by choice, to be around women but also because I prefer it. That said, it would be fun living in the country with a woman…..until she gets bored….

7. @LibreMax

   “I have actually even given more thoughts about just having an OLTR and not living with her. ”

   I have thought similar thoughts as of late, and I don’t think that it would be necessary to move in with your OLTR even if you have kids.

   If you don’t move in with her and switch custody of your kid(s) every so often, both of you don’t have to parent 24/7, putting less of a strain on you and her.  Also, if you don’t live in the same house and only see each other every so often, you can greatly reduce any drama, and you both would have good logistics with your fbs.  Lastly, your kid wouldn’t experience any instability if you and mom are on good terms and, if this is all that they have ever known.

   I know this plan probably has a lot of flaws, such as finding someone to agree to this, house fees, etc, but I think eventually something like this will become more common in the future.

    

8. Regarding what’s been said above about a live-in OLTR helping with food etc, I’m a bit on the fence. “Fuck that kind of thinking, everyone should be self-reliant, girls will use that to shackle you to themselves”-type of arguments left aside, I do admit that I tend to end up having better hygiene and tastier food during the few weeks per year I spend at my parents’ house. I think men, by default (those who forcefully acclimated themselves are different), are much more inclined to tolerate living in a messy, (relatively) dirty place than women; have your mom or sister come visit you at your place, watch their reaction and you’ll see what I mean. They won’t rest until the place is almost shiny, lol.

   With food, the thing is that I don’t eat like ordinary people: I have a target amount of protein and carbs to hit (except for cheat days) and I hit it by just buying and preparing fixed amounts of turkey, fish, dairy, veggies and bread, so my meals tend to be big chuncks of “stuff” that don’t even have a meal name or something. When I spend time at my mom’s, I’ll welcome the more traditional meals that she cooks for me and I actually do miss them when I’m abroad on my own, but they’re merely supplements to my less traditional diet, which she has come to understand (while my dad still shakes his head at it, lol).

   So if I had a live-in OLTR there won’t be a big difference in what I eat, but the place will probably end up being less dusty, more ventilated, that sort of thing – not because I’ll be expecting her to do anything, but because (PC be damned) women are just different from men and will not be able to help themselves from having a tidier nest. But I do admit that if she understood exactly how I eat, she’d probably insist that even that can be arranged in a tastier way, which might make me dependent on her (even if I know how she does the cooking, I’d be too lazy to replicate it when on my own).

   Ultimately the real reasons I currently don’t want a live-in anything are drama plus the legal aspect of cohabitation. Maybe in some years I’ll make the effort to investigate the latter and see if this can actually be pulled off with minimal risks.

9. So, I was wondering: what other ADVANTAGES and BENEFITS can a live in OLTR bring to a man’s life? I feel I might be missing a point somewhere… Could someone enlight me?

   If you don’t want kids (I don’t want more kids either) there’s only three; A) more consistent companionship, B) easier access to sex if you travel a lot or have multiple homes in different countries, and C) increased social acceptance. I don’t care about C, but A becomes more important as a man ages and B is a significant benefit to the mobile Alpha 2.0.

   For a guy like me who doesn’t want kids, I could list only 3 tiny advantages (seemingly easier to manage

   False. Live-in OLTR is harder to manage, not easier.

   having reasonably safe intercourse without condom,

   False. You can do this with a non-live-in OLTR or even high-end MLTR.

   ability so see her more than once per week

   False. You can do this with a non-live-in OLTR.

   but the disadvantages seem huge in comparison

   They are. Living with a woman introduces a strong set of disadvantages, even if you stay nonmonogamous and keep separate legal finances. You have to really want one or two of those advantages I stated above, or else forget it.

   Here again, I seem to be missing an obvious point, because I read everywhere on the topic of OLTR and the common thing is *you get all the benefits of a girlfriend*, but those benefits are not really explicited: what are those benefits?

   I think the biggest point you’re missing is that you have to move in with a woman to make her your girlfriend. You don’t. (I have a girlfriend, and I don’t live with her. Yet.)

   why the guy with MLTRs and FBs would feel lonelier than the guy with OLTR and FBs?

   Guys under age 35 or 40 wouldn’t. But most (not all, but most) older guys eventually would. It’s an age thing.

   DO EXACTLY EVERYTHING BLACKDRAGON SAYS EXACTLY THE WAY HE DOES IT OR YOU’RE BORING LOW-SEX-DRIVE DISNEY 1.0 HATE BEING HAPPY.

   I have literally never said this nor anything like this. That was my point. As just one example where I acknowledge and accept the other side, read this. There are many others if you go through my archive.

   Nice try though.

   RE: Media sources you left out the most important: Foreign. You need to look at other countries’ reporting on issues as well.

   Very good point; I forgot to mention that.

   Blackdragon maybe, since you seem to prefer not having more kids, and you are introvert, can you explicit what’s the benefits of OLTR for you? Of being *pair bonded*. How is that an advantage?

   For me, advantages A and B above.

   And yes, in order to offset the significant negatives of having a woman live with you, you’d better really want those 2-3 things badly and be very sure your relationship game is strong enough to maintain a long-term, low-drama, nonmonogamous, live-in relationship with a woman. If it isn’t, you should probably hold off living with anyone (unless you don’t mind drama and problems; some guys don’t), either forever or at least until you get your relationship skills and frame to a decently high level.

   Notice I haven’t lived with anyone in over 10 years even though I had many opportunities and offers to do so, and some from some decently high-quality women. This was by design. I didn’t want it back then, nor was I ready. Today I do and I am, but it took me 10+ years, and I’m pretty good at this stuff; imagine how long it would take a normal guy. That should give you an idea regarding the magnitude of this decision, and how little thought and planning betas and Alpha 1.0’s put into this “just move in with her!” thing.

10. Thank you BlackDragon for your answers, that clarifies a lot.

    “I think the biggest point you’re missing is that you have to move in with a woman to make her your girlfriend.”

    I think I may not have expressed myself very clearly: in the second part I was extending my questions to all kinds of OLTR, even those living separately.

    From your answers I understand that apparently the main point I am missing about both live in and separate *pair bonding* is “Consistent Companionship”. I feel currently that I actually tend to percieve this as a disadventage for me. (at this point of my life at least since you say it comes with age).

    I wonder if as an only child and INTP, this desire for “consistent companionship” will ever come to me. I feel as long as I can cuddle and snuggle, and spend a night here and there with MLTRs that’s consistent enough companionship. I also always have had at least 1 super close male friend (not always the same across my life, but long friendships, I noticed a pattern that they happened to all be only childs as well), who I can discuss and confide anything, most of the time these days it’s just via messaging apps. This all provides me with a solid sensation of companionship.

    So I guess OLTR for me is mostly if I feel a strong desire to fuck her raw and see here more than once a week OR if I want to travel for more than a few weeks in remote locations far away from the city and without cheap enough prostitution. In the last scenario, I could eventually make a fucked up very short kind of not really OLTR with a girl who doesn’t really qualify by lack of time, and prepare for massive drama down the trip, as long as it’s just for a few months, it may work. Just have to plan that at any moment I may have to hard next her, so I need to prepare my trip with the lowest commitments possible in term of transportation and accommodations so that I can give it up at any moment and fallback in less than one or 2 weeks to some place where sex will be reasonably available. And also to start first with the situations where the OLTR brings the most value, and plan the latest in the trip the situations when it brings less value (since higher probability that I need to hard next or at least sof next).

11. And of course, I as well couldn’t care less about increased social acceptance provided by OLTR, at least at this point in my life.

    The only moment in my current life when I care about looking socially acceptable is when I am picking up women.

    Here again I clearly percieve this as a huge disadventage, because then when trying to pick up a new FBs I couldn’t say anymore that I am “single”, I mean if she asks me if I have a girlfriend, yes, I already have the OLTR. She will know it very early, this clearly makes it much harder to fuck a new woman if needed. I would say 10 times harder because of the damed social stigma of already being *pair bonded*. And also the new woman knows already that the primary partner status is already taken and she can only have the FB status, even if I don’t verbalise it.

12. There might be an exception for me if the woman is a 9 or more in my eyes, and a real bisexual who doesn’t feel her sexlife is complete without regular and consistent anal sex, orgies, pussies and cocks, and she very actively pick up girls and organises 3somes, but prefers to live separately. Then I would see a point in an OLTR with her. But honestly, this is some form of guy Disney. The probabilities of encountering such a unicorn seem extremely low to me.

13. @LibreMax:

    For the food she would truely bring value to me only if she was a vegan and niche expert in cooking some “Brendan Brazier’s vegan thrive diet” or “Patrik Baboumian, vegan strongman” types of food.

    Can you explain this? Dear god, you’re not some vegan are you? Say it ain’t so.

    Also, you should never be dependent on a woman for any gender neutral convenience. Things like cooking, cleaning, laundry, and so forth are things you should do yourself. Becoming dependent on women for these things makes you lazy and it opens the door for blackmail and other bad behaviors that you might allow her to get away with because you don’t want to start picking up your own socks again. Never make this alpha 1.0 mistake.

    Here again I clearly percieve this as a huge disadventage, because then when trying to pick up a new FBs I couldn’t say anymore that I am “single”,

    Do women you pick up actually ask this explicitly?

    I mean if she asks me if I have a girlfriend, yes, I already have the OLTR. She will know it very early, this clearly makes it much harder to fuck a new woman if needed. I would say 10 times harder because of the damed social stigma of already being *pair bonded*.

    If you screen for the only types of women I sleep with, this won’t be much of a problem. Many women couldn’t care less if you have a girlfriend, especially if they badly need sexual release themselves. The “social stigma” of having a girlfriend seems to only affect women who are on the more conservative side; that is, those who would “never” sleep with a taken man. But those are the types of women I screen out of my life anyway because they turn me off.

    Also, if it’s a real problem for you, I recommend married women, or women with boyfriends. I promise, they won’t judge you and often give the best sex!

    And also the new woman knows already that the primary partner status is already taken and she can only have the FB status, even if I don’t verbalise it.

    Not true. Many women believe (sometimes correctly) that they can eventually get you to dump your girlfriend if they provide more exquisite sex than her and eventually warm their way into your heart. In fact, my ex-girlfriend (the last one I was ever monogamous with a long time ago) did precisely this. She used to tell me stories about how she’d go to bed with men who had girlfriends – men who insisted that she would be nothing more than a fuck buddy – only to get those men to dump their girlfriends and catch feelings for her. It worked like a charm (which is ironic, because charms don’t work).

    Women know what they’re doing. If they want you in a certain capacity, they will ruthlessly try to make that capacity a reality. There are even women who shower married men with great sex because they desire to be the next wife (a desire that frequently comes to pass).

    So if you’re picking up conservative women who think you’re a pig, I’d recommend harder screening. This is what online dating was built for.

    There might be an exception for me if the woman is a 9 or more in my eyes, and a real bisexual who doesn’t feel her sexlife is complete without regular and consistent anal sex, orgies, pussies and cocks, and she very actively pick up girls and organises 3somes, but prefers to live separately. Then I would see a point in an OLTR with her. But honestly, this is some form of guy Disney. The probabilities of encountering such a unicorn seem extremely low to me.

    Then I must be a lucky bastard because you just described my sex life! Except her and I do live together, I don’t really use the 1-10 scale, and she really doesn’t pick up anyone anymore, as our threesomes and group sex come from her social circle. 🙂

     

     

14. Just a couple of notes — the Wall Street Journal’s opinion page is conservative.  The rest of the people is extremely left-wing.  Paper was set up this way on purpose.

    For a libertarian view for people who don’t have much time — read the blog Instapundit. He’s Glenn Reynolds, con law professor and USA today columnist. He has sworn he will never be a Republican. His father was a hard core Vietnam protest leader. He went to Yale Law School. Has been moving away from the Left for most of his adult life.  Extremely smart, reasonable.  His wife is Dr Helen Smith who wrote Men on Strike. She’s linked by Dalrock on his blogroll.

    Ann Althouse is a lefty law prof from Madison and Obama voter who is actually rational and reasonable. Her comment threads can be kind of wild because most of her commenters are on the right and the lefties hate her for not being totally in the tank.

     

    Powerline is a blog on the right run by 3 lawyers who were hard core commies in college at Dartmouth. Blog played a big role in exposing Rathergate. Joined by professor Steve Hayward a year or two ago.

15. 1. ALL WOMEN ARE EVIL! DON’T DATE ANY OF THEM! THEY WILL LIE TO YOU AND CHEAT ON YOU AND FUCK UP YOUR LIFE.

    lol, you can also add:

    2. ALL WOMEN ARE FEMINISTS WHO HATE MEN SO WHEN YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DEAL WITH THEM YOU ARE TAKING BACK YOUR POWER AS A MAN!! PORN AND HOOKERS FOREVER!!!

    That’s another MGTOW argument, that I have seen quite a bit when trolling around MGTOW communities. They go absolutely apeshit whenever I say that “refusing” to have sex with chicks is closet homosexuality (which IMO it more than likely is). Seriously, calling a MGTOW a closet homo gets them more butthurt than SJWs.

    Also this one, and this is more or less a catch-all nowadays that could apply to anything on the internet:

    ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS A TROLL/HATER WITH NO LIFE!!

    Here’s another disturbing observation of mine: I’ve been around SJWs in person, who fit the description of most SJWs perfectly. They use all the terms and stuff, but none of them were ever belligerent to me at all and some of them even *gasp* don’t mind libertarian concepts at all if you present them in a manner that relates to them. I just don’t like how they much they fanboy/fangirl for socialism.

    But I have yet to see MGTOW or any alt-righters in person at all, and I live in the south where you think they would exist the most.

16. They go absolutely apeshit whenever I say that “refusing” to have sex with chicks is closet homosexuality (which IMO it more than likely is)

    @Joelsuf: you make this point often, but consider that it’s the typical unfalsifiable stuff that you can just make up as you go and have it seemingly confirmed by any facts and their opposite.
    Either those who hate homosexuality are closet homos, or they, you know, really hate it and aren’t homos but are just straight people with the normal, visceral reaction of being grossed out by the type of sex you’re not wired to desire. Sex-related disgust is just another evolved reaction; it can be reduced or exacerbated by various events but in itself it’s a normal bio mechanism.
    You’re gratuitously picking the first possibility and rejecting the second without basis; now if I’m not gay but happen to dislike the type of sex I’m not wired to want, I’m gay; and if I’m gay and am too butthurt to admit it, I’m also gay. See the problem here ? It’s a pattern very present in feminists too: eg, they’ll say “men get angry at the thought of being castrated, obviously because deep down, they want to be feminized and are afraid to admit it”. It doesn’t occur to them (because they are fanatical relativists, on top of the psychoanalytical garbage many believe in) that there’s another possibility: that they, you know, *really* don’t wanna be neutered and that’s it. Of course you never hear a feminist being “open-minded about having her feminism removed”. When the thought expriment is applied to YOU, then you realize that every being is wired to not want their key traits denied to them, and that’s all there is to it.

17. In contrast, sexuality is primal, it’s animalistic

    and

    forces that imply larger truths then your left brain can’t even grasp

    I’m actually very likely to have a better understanding of those things than you do, because I haven’t just witnessed them and related to them: I know how they even began to exist, evolutionarily. Still doesn’t matter: dishonest and irrational behavior in “the economic sphere”, which you’re trying to separate from the sexual sphere, also has similar animalistic origins. Doesn’t deserve respect in one case or the other.

18. you make this point often, but consider that it’s the typical unfalsifiable stuff that you can just make up as you go and have it seemingly confirmed by any facts and their opposite.

    Yeah its just an observation of mine that I acquired by listening to MGTOW “podcasts (which make for VERY good bedtime stories as they talk about the same thing for hours on end lol; shit’s better than sleeping pills).” A lot of them just have a lot of feminine traits (talking really fast, nasal or high pitched voices, using “terms” like the SJWs do). Don’t read too much into it, I’m not trying to prove anything.

    I also just really dislike MGTOW because they are just as abrasive and exclusive as most SJWs (at least online anyways).

19. Heaven or Hell! God or Satan! Right or Wrong! Sinner or Saint!… extremes are ‘baked in’ for the past 2000 years of western religion.

20. Yeah its just an observation of mine that I acquired by listening to MGTOW “podcasts (which make for VERY good bedtime stories as they talk about the same thing for hours on end lol; shit’s better than sleeping pills).” A lot of them just have a lot of feminine traits (talking really fast, nasal or high pitched voices, using “terms” like the SJWs do)

    Haha, yeah it’s true.
    By the way, I’ve been reading your two blog; lots of interesting stuff in there, especially the one with your name (looks like I’m not the target audience for Keep Climbing Forever, but I’ve checked the other one several times).

21. Hey Jack outside of the box, thanks for your input, it’s awesome that your live in OLTR is like that! I agree with your point about the trap of becoming dependent on women for chores and cooking.

    Concerning the screening, how do you screen harder for that kind of bisexual orgies lover? I mean even on Okcupid with all their questions, yiu can’t really screen the profiles as most women don’t answer these questions or not publicly. The other sites I am using don’t even offer an orientation criteria where I could filter for bisexuals.
    On a side note I screen very hard on height already, I like best the woman to be 4’11” (150cm) or less, or she has to have really small body and long legs. I do fuck taller women (I even tried taller than me) but it just feels a lot less enjoyable for me, I am 5’8″ (174cm) with long legs and small body, so it feels much nicer if she has a smaller body than mine so I can wrap myself arround her.

    “I don’t really use the 1-10 scale”, I use here an entirely subjective scale to say that she doesn’t need to be the best looking woman I ever fucked, not even the best looking woman I am currently fucking, but she needs to be subjectively close to that. Perhaps a solid subjective 8 would be enough if she manages to consistently bring hotter girls than her? I have an MLTR, totally drama free, who fits this unicorn description, except she is a 6, max 7 with nice clothes and makeup to me, because there is something I don’t like how her skin is too pale and something about her smell (entirely subjective too, a friend of mine who fucked her had zero pb with her smell), and her body is too flat for me, that’s not enough. I am happy to see her once a week, but more than that, no, I wouldn’t feel horny for her. (I tried that).

22. I could become lazy and dependent on this unicorn to provide FBs, that’s dangerous.

23. “find a young virgin, marry her, and be Alpha” doesn’t work at all, as I’ve shown with numerous articles, stats, and facts all over this blog. If that advice actually worked, the divorce rate would not be 70%, and the infidelity rate wouldn’t be constantly rising.”

    I know this isn’t the point of this article, but are you are seriously positing that the majority of marriages are the result of an Alpha male marrying a young virgin? Or simply that we can reasonably take the data that comes from the other 99% of marriage pairings which do not involve virgins and alphas to reach conclusions about alpha/virgin marriages? Either way it seems pretty unreasonable.

    According to the surveys, the average man has sex with 7 women in his life, and the average woman has sex with 4 men in her life. Now those actually  are the same people that are cheating so much and getting divorced so much. Although those numbers indicate more that it isn’t that lots of cheating goes on, but maybe it is simply that due to their philosophy, monogamous couples greatly overreact to what is a pretty infrequent and minor issue. They can’t tolerate even ONE incident.

    In any case, if “normal” women have that few partners, it seems pretty unlikely that a girl that waited to get married as a virgin would suddenly undergo such a personality shift. If she had the willpower to go that long, waiting for one guy, why wouldn’t she continue to follow up on that through the rest of the marriage? It’s probably a part of her identity at that point.

    In either case, you certainly have not refuted the Alpha/virgin theory with stats. and facts because you haven’t got any stats or facts about those pairings, merely your opinions (which are admittedly well-formed based on considerable personal experience, but merely opinions nonetheless). Stats and facts from common marriages obviously are not relevant.

    In fact, from a study from the University of Utah: “women who married as virgins had the lowest divorce rates by far. Eleven percent of virgin marriages (on the part of the woman, at least) in the 1980s dissolved within five years. This number fell to 8 percent in the 1990s, then fell again to 6 percent in the 2000s.”

24. @Ralph

    While it is true that virgin marriages do last longer, these marriages still do not avoid the general disadvantages of monogamy, and these couples are not necessarily happier either.

25. In either case, you certainly have not refuted the Alpha/virgin theory with stats. and facts because you haven’t got any stats or facts about those pairings, merely your opinions (which are admittedly well-formed based on considerable personal experience, but merely opinions nonetheless). Stats and facts from common marriages obviously are not relevant.

    I realize you live in Taiwan and your views on this are colored by your Chinese culture. Perhaps in Taiwan/China these statistics are very different, but I’m only talking here about the Western world, not Taiwan, and not China.

    IN THE WESTERN WORLD, stats and facts from common marriage do indeed include women who marry as virgins. As I’ve shown in many places, particularly here, divorce rates have increased dramatically for everyone in the West. That’s not only virgins, but it certainly includes virgins. If marrying a virgin was the hidden key to having a lifetime marriage with no divorce and no cheating ever by either partner, you would see millions of people in the West doing this and pulling it off, yet you do not. That has to tell you something.

    I also showed here how insane it is for people in the West to attempt to reduce their divorce rates by marrying a virgin. Go read it. It’s pretty funny.

    In fact, from a study from the University of Utah: “women who married as virgins had the lowest divorce rates by far. Eleven percent of virgin marriages (on the part of the woman, at least) in the 1980s dissolved within five years.

    Both stupid and irrelevant. Whether or not someone gets divorced within the first five years of marriage is utterly useless and meaningless information. So you married a virgin and made it five years, then get divorced in year six. Or year 10. Or year 15. Is that a victory? No. Did your marriage work? No.

    I agree that the data seems to indicate that virgins probably have lower overall divorce rates than normal people, particularly when you only look at a limited and isolated span of time (like five years; how dumb!). But the goal of marriage is to be married forever (not five years, forever!) and for you and her to never cheat, ever. There is zero evidence that marrying a virgin in the Western world accomplishes this.

26. I forgot to answer: I am not vegan, I still eat some animal products. However I do believe in a health benefit in eating as much vegan as possible, ideally completely vegan. I do also believe that a proper vegan diet does not impair muscle growth. Also I believe in an environmental impact. As for animal cruelty I have to admit it’s a negligible argument for my personal food choice.
    Now… eating vegan is not enough, if one just eat vegan processed crap, that’s not good for one’s health.
    That’s just my personal belief based on my oersonal reads on the topic, and I don’t want to engage in a debate over plant based vs animal products diets. Nor do I advocate here to switch to veganism.
    Just do your own research and be critical about what you eat if that is of interest to you. I believe nutrition is a very complex and vast topic, so anyone telling you they have the complete truth about it should be taken with suspicion.

27. Hey BD, just so I’m not cluttering the thread: there’s a comment I mistakenly posted here (4:43pm blog time) then deleted because it was meant for another article (I definitely remember deleting it), but today it’s showing up again. Just so you know.

28. By the way, I’ve been reading your two blog; lots of interesting stuff in there, especially the one with your name (looks like I’m not the target audience for Keep Climbing Forever, but I’ve checked the other one several times).

    Thank you. Yeah, KCF is more of an improvement blog so its really tame and I keep it more or less PC…for now. When I get sick of posting feel good stories, it’ll probably be similar to Bold and Determined but for an audience that extends beyond the manosphere.

    The other one is where I tend to get on my soapbox which I suppose allows for more exciting stuff. And even those are more or less just drafts for KCF as well as a new blog I’ll be making where I’m always on my soapbox. I have called it “Play Hard in the Gray” and like with this article, it’ll focus on gray areas of issues.

29. It’s funny how those angry bitchy internet people could find the answers themselves if they just paused for a couple of minutes and started to think straight. In those cases even a 5 year old kid would have enough maturity to be curious and ask the right questions to come up with the correct answers.

    About live-in OLTR, if you ever did co-habitation with a woman you’ll know two things:

    1) it’s extremely challenging in one end;

    2) it’s extremely rewarding in another;

    As BD says, it’s the same as with kids: you have to badly want it AND have your life and priorities in check! Men should just do it after a certain age, when they have experienced a lot of stuff (good and bad) and can properly weight the consequences of such decisions.

30. @POB,

    I definitely do not badly want a female roommate at this stage of my life.  That may change one day but I see no point.  I also do not wants kids.  I’m an introvert and I like my space and me-time, can adequately afford my place and clean/cook on my own.  I sometimes hire a cleaning person to come through and scrub the place top to bottom and it’s only $85.  I see little benefit of having a girl live with me.  I already get regular sex and companionship when I want it.   I lived with a woman for 2 years and while I won’t say it was a total disaster, it wasn’t very fun either.   Seems like every woman wants to move in with you too-must be some hardcoded thing in their DNA to “nest” with you and give themselves some extra feeling of security.

31. @Crab

    Yep, I too don’t need that stuff in my life right now. Things are fine as they are.

    But after I cross a certain age barrier (probably between 45-50) I will definitely want to have kids and will think carefully about moving in with someone (dual live-in probably).

    Not because I’ll need anything from a woman or feel any kind of loneliness, but because I know I’ll feel good and won’t mind the downsides.

32. I’d say another antidote to internet extremes is to read longer pieces. For instance, the Journal of Foreign Affairs has multi-page essays and comes out 6 times a year, while the Economist is a weekly magazine. Reading deeper pieces over longer time frames helps slow down the spin, IMO.

33. Extremism on either side of an issue can spread like a virus.

    It’s usually because people are using their words as an emotional outlet and dopamine hit and for “likes” – not for honest persuasion or intellectual honesty with oneself – which requires checking your ego, restraint, and actually attacking your own argument for holes.

    Unfortunately in the age of the internet and social media, ‘extremist’ views are reinforced. There will always be a disaffected part of society, pissed at the world or life for whatever reason. They need an outlet. Moderate discourse doesn’t provide that. Their inner lizard-brain wants someone to shout out their deeper, repressed thoughts that are a bit taboo. Such as certain young college kids wanting to say ‘Fuck cisgender straight white males! They’re all evil privileged assholes!’ … It’s completely irrational but that’s the human brain – riddle with self-serving bias. Not to mention shit like that gets ‘upvotes’ and ‘likes’ and ‘attention’ – and you’re reinforcing the behavior, down to the root neural pathways.

    You can’t control others. You can only recognize when you yourself are being intellectually honest or not. And it depends on your objective. Are you conversing to learn something, to get to the heart of a matter and solution and truth? Or are you conversing to persuade someone of something? (in this case bullshit may be deployed depending on your ethics). Or Option 3, you want to hear yourself talk/ attention/ an emotional indulgence? This is probably a factor in most conversations to some degree.

    One interesting psychological study was to make someone argue one side of an issue based on a coin toss. They found that when someone is instructed to argue (legitimately) for a side, even if they don’t believe in that side, they move closer to it.

    Maybe BD should make an intellectual argument for monogamy or Democratic liberalism. Again not argued with your current or honest beliefs; just in an attempt to win a debate – but not necessarily with bullshit, with sound logic. But it’s an interesting thought experiment I’ll do sometimes.

34. On the mainstream media:

    Like Scott Adams says, the media actually gets their facts right (more or less). The manipulation lies on what facts they emphatize and what facts they ignore.

35. Funnily I used to read this blog as an extreme opinion to counterbalance conservative thinking but as I get older and spend more time around women I realise BlackDragon has got it right.

    I know you live in the US but I guess a significant amount of your readers are from the British Commonwealth, I wonder if you could give some time to the peculiarities that revolve around those parts of the world.

    The situation here in Australia is that cohabitation is implied after 6 months to 2 years and one doesn’t necessarily have to live with a partner to be cohabitating, heck ex Billionaire Richard Pratt’s deceased estate Trustee had to pay off a genuine hooker for using her services over many years. Also prenups don’t work here and have to be re-entered annually to match changing circumstances.

    How would you go about it in this environment? All I can think of is either having multiple simultaneous relationships or using an offshore trust to protect assets.

    I’m also thinking about having kids and I think I may go down the route of impregnating several mid 30s women, I’ll have involvement in their lives but I don’t want a live in situation, hopefully they’ll nail down a beta Bucks afterwards.

    Off topic but just a quick by question, why would a woman not want you to go down on her but just jump into sex without warming up? Too stimulating, bad technique, overly horny, not horny enough, weird hang up etc.?

36. Where does “The Economist” fall in your various categories of media? I’ve recently subscribed and begun reading/listening to it regularly.

37. This blog post was EXTREMELY interesting

38. I graduate highschool in 2021, am i hopeless?

39. I graduate highschool in 2021, am i hopeless?

    No. You’re just entering a world where what you told will work no longer works. Spend $9 and get my book.

40. BD,

     

    Roosh has a new post out where he talks about what he has learnt from his long term relationships.  A lot of it is spot in.  I think he finally conceeds monagamy doesnt work:

    he says on monagamy:

    “You may be able to keep it together for a few months, a few years, and maybe even a decade, but eventually it will collapse. ”

    If a woman marries the wrong man, divorce is easy for her. She gets the children, house, monthly payments, and community support for being so brave. If a man marries the wrong woman, his life is ruined. He gets depression, destitution, suicidal thoughts, and children that are programmed to hate him.  “

41. Roosh already had similar thoughts some years ago in a post along the lines of “I’m ready to man up now” (sarcastic title of course).
    I know the general trend here is to hate him, and in some ways he *is* quite exasperating, but he was actually pretty interesting in the 2006-2011 period and it’s only when he was deeper into his thirties that he went full tradcon. Back then, if you ignored his occasional ramblings about “evolution” where he always fucks it up with popular misconceptions, he was actually a pretty smart guy (Also read his article where he talks about Tolstoi. He is NOT a religious zealot; it’s more like he’s “pragmatically” trying to believe against his rational judgement). If he’s coming full circle about marriage/monogamy with the insight of more experience, I’m welcoming it. But I won’t hold my breath; I stopped reading him regularly about a year ago.

42. I graduate highschool in 2021, am i hopeless?

    How can someone as young as you even think that?

    For starters, a man’s peak success with women is actually around age 40.  Not fourteen, but forty.

    You probably think 40 is old.  Your father may be around that age.  But a man’s peak with women is usually around age 40.

    So for you to despair now, makes no sense.  Hell, it makes no sense even for guys who are 27…

43. Roosh has a new post out where he talks about what he has learnt from his long term relationships.  A lot of it is spot in.  I think he finally conceeds monagamy doesnt work:

    No. The only reason he’s talking like that is because he just broke up with his monogamous girlfriend and is returning to his usual state of depression. If you just wait 6-24 months (or less), he’ll be on the tradcon “a real man gets traditionally married” bandwagon again. Just watch.

    While I don’t agree with a lot of his views, I like Roosh and I give him an A for effort. The problem is like all hardcore right-wingers, he’s angrily trying forever to shove a square peg into a round hole that will never fit, instead of admitting he needs to get a round peg. He logically understand this, but not emotionally. And he probably never will.

    Here’s the more relevant quote from his article:

    For one of my relationships, I tried to create a serene bubble of patriarchy and goodness, and it worked for a while, but eventually I lost out to Facebook, her promiscuous friends, her enabling relatives, and to the degenerate majority. By dating one girl, you date the world around her, and if that world is sick, a negative outcome is inevitable.

    Precisely. Long-term monogamy does not work in the Western world. It’s stupid to even try.

    Again though, like most men, in a little while his emotions will get the better of him once again, he’ll forget he wrote that, and he’ll be right on the monogamy bandwagon once again.