When To Pitch The Date Online
As Iâve talked about many times before, time is your enemy when you are engaged in online dating. The longer you wait, pretty much for anything, the lower your success odds become.
This means that if youâre talking to a cute girl over Bumble, the longer you wait to pitch the first date/meet the lower your odds become of ever actually meeting her. Her life is full of distractions, and as some stranger sheâs talking to over the internet for a few minutes, you rank the lowest of all the distractions in her life.
At the same time, if you pitch the date too soon, you also run the risk of failure since you risk scaring her or spiking her ASD.
As I talk about in great detail in the Ultimate Online Dating Manual, you need to time the date pitch precisely when the odds of success are highest. And, as with all of my advice, you need to do this regardless of what your personal opinions or feelings are regarding when you think this âshouldâ be done. As always, reality doesnât give a shit about your feelings or your Societal Programming. Neither do women.
Many of you already know my standard system here. That is, to date pitch a new woman youâre communicating with online within two or three exchanges. This means you send her an opener, she replies (one exchange), you send her a response, she responds (second exchange), then you date pitch, or send her one more response, and then get hers (third exchange) when you then pitch.
Iâve done this hundreds of times and it works well. However, there are several scenarios where this doesnât apply.
The first is if youâre on a swipe app like Tinder or Bumble. When youâre communicating with a woman over an app rather than a site, the communication dynamic is slightly different. The conversation over an app feels more like texting. A conversation over a site feels like emailing. The interaction over an app feels faster.
This means that if you date pitch on two exchanges over an app, it feels too fast. When using an app, sadly, you have to wait a little longer to date pitch. Remember I said a little. If you carry on a conversation too long, you will lose her.
The sweet spot in most online dating conversations over an app is around ten minutes. Have a conversation with her over the messaging system in the app (using phase one first date conversation techniques that I lay out in Get To Sex Fast), then date pitch. Your odds are much higher doing this than pitching at the second or third exchange or waiting past ten minutes.
Another time the second/third exchange method sometimes doesnât work is if youâre talking to a woman over the age of 33. In many cases, these high-ASD women need to âget to know you firstâ (always a bullshit excuse) before meeting you in real life (which, of course, doesnât make any sense, since thatâs how you get to know someone: real life).
There are times you may need to wait past three exchanges with women over the age of 33. Again though, you donât want to wait too long. Do not get into some long back-and-forth online with any woman of any age. Your odds always go down when you do this.
Yet another time the second/third exchange pitch may not work is if you live in a much harder city like San Francisco or Toronto. Women in these cities combine a higher level of ASD with a higher degree of anger, equaling a more difficult dating experience for you. Guys in these cities will, unfortunately, need to wait past the third exchange before executing a date pitch. (And as always, if you live in a city like this and your woman life is important to you, stop complaining and make plans to move to another city as soon as you possibly can. No excuses.)
The one worry men have when I recommend sooner-than-normal date pitching is âWell what if I bring up meeting in real life too fast and scare her off?â
Thatâs not how it works. If you pitch a date when I recommend and she suddenly ghosts you, that means she would have ghosted you anyway when you would have pitched the date later.
Date-pitching right up front like this doesnât scare women away who were already serious about meeting up with a man in real life. It instead screens out the time-wasters and attention whores who would have wasted your time anyway.
There is no such thing as a woman who is very serious about actually meeting a man in real life, specifically meeting you in real life, who will be terrified to the point of ghosting if such a man gently pitches a low-pressure first meet the way I describe in the Ultimate Online Dating Manual after two or three exchanges or 10 minutes of banter. Again, thatâs just not how it works (yes, there are always extremely rare exceptions to every rule).
So please donât worry about this. Iâd far rather have you issue the date pitch too soon than too late. The guy who date pitches soon wonât be wasting his time. The guy who pitches too late always will.
Iâm coming to a town near you in 2019 to do the least expensive Alpha Male 2.0 seminar Iâve ever done. Iâll be in 18 different cities in the USA, Australia, Canada, and Europe. If you want to come to a low-cost seminar to learn how to improve your financial and woman life, click HERE and get your tickets! The next cities coming up are Dallas, Houston, and Brisbane!
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
Hey BD – This is an excellent well timed article for me. I am a disciple of your 3 message rule and got quite a reasonable rate of dates using this method on online dating sites in 2015 & 2016. From then on I have been using swipe apps and the 3 message rule has not really worked. You have provided the answers as I message over 33 year olds as I did back in 2015 as I am a 49 year old. It saves time and sifts out the time wasters. Iâm having a break from all this nonsense over the festive break and look forward to pitching at a more appropriate level (after 5 â 6 responses max, which would equate to roughly 10 minutes â as I find it quite boring as the women over 33 in London UK donât really have sparkly banter and it becomes tedious). Happy Xmas BD & a stupendous 2019
From my experience most girls on these swipe apps can sometimes take hours/days to respond to each message, sometimes the conversations can go days with only 3 or 4 messages having been exchanged even when you’re responding immediately as it often takes them a long time to respond to even simple messages.
So what do you mean by 10 minutes?
Wow, I’m a little surprised to see this piece of golden advice from your books as a blog post. It is tried and true though for basically any online interaction, such as Facebook even. Attention whores and time wasters literally ghost very quickly after you pitch the date. In my opinion many of them are mad at a boyfriend and think they want to find someone else but really just want the attention the boyfriend isn’t providing.
Occasionally I get one that seems very interested in the date pitch, but then has all sorts of excuses or reasons why she’s too busy this week, and I’ve tried pitching a week later and then a set of new excuses, at that point I just basically ghost them, and I never hear back from them. Is that the best way to handle those?
Curious what the different success percentages are since you track everything. I used your standard system on bumble and had a very good success rate
BD,
I’ve not done any dating sites/apps and have met girls just through the old school way, social circles, etc…
What would you recommend for a guy at 41 if I were to try it? I know Tinder is pretty useless for older guys and I’ve heard Match.com sucks too. I do the MLTR/FB model of dating if that helps. I also look very young for my age-I typically get pegged as 30.
Thanks!
BD, Just starting to go through unchained man and its awesome. You mentioned Toronto and SF being bad cities, do you have a list of good and bad cities posted anywhere for the US ?
Thanks,
@CrabRangoon
Re: What would you recommend for a guy at 41 if I were to try it? I know Tinder is pretty useless for older guys and Iâve heard Match.com sucks too. I do the MLTR/FB model of dating if that helps. I also look very young for my age-I typically get pegged as 30.
I would suggest Bumble:
Pros:
Once you match, only the woman can make first contact.
Cons:
The women are still as flakey even though they made 1st contact and youâre game is solid.
The women are mainly in a higher professional jobs so are very picky and have sky high almost unrealistic expectations of their sexual market value (SMV)
I would also suggest Tinder:
Pros:
It is now the go to dating app so you have to be on it to put the numbers in.
Cons:
Generally a large percentage of lower quality overweight older women and time wasters with a grossly overrated opinion of their SMV.
Generally if you look good and you say you look youthful, youâre thick skinned to the inevitable rejections and lack of meaningful matches put in the numbers you will get what youâre looking for eventuallyđ
As far as the over 33 women go… I’d read about an approach of basically chatting them up until they pitch a date. I’ve tried it on a few women that i wasn’t too crazy about meeting (had deceptive front photos, ended up being chubby/ugly/etc), and surprisingly they did pitch a meet.
In general I’m not too worried about getting ghosted when I pitch a meet. Weirdly though I’ve run into several women that WILL text me off the app, and never respond.
@Aloofus – It’s very beta to chat women up and wait for them to pitch a date. And more often then not, I think you’d find your time getting wasted without a date ever being pitched. There are lots of women looking for attention and nothing more and they will gladly waste as much of your time as you will allow.
Good on you for not worrying about getting ghosted. That’s how you should be. If she ghosts move to the next one.
Those are (usually) the women who aren’t serious. Start tracking how often you actually meet those women in real life, and you’ll find its a very tiny percentage (if any).
10 minutes of actual conversational time. And if a woman takes 24 hours to respond to every message you send her (over a swipe app only), your odds plummet regardless of how long you wait.
I’m a giver.
Yup. I usually follow a two-strikes-you’re-out rule with those. I try, hard, twice. After twice I’m usually done.
You do just two exchanges with a cold woman on Bumble and have a good real-life success rate with that? I do not, nor do most men. There may be more to your story.
1. Don’t use Tinder unless you’re only going after women your own age.
2. Bumble is okay.
3. Buy this book and do what it says.
There is no radical difference in most US cities other than SF in terms of difficulty. The more important difference you need to worry about are those with less hot women. Read this.
Not only do I quesiton that technique, I would never do it even if it worked. Not time management efficient. I have better things to do, including having sex with younger women who don’t require that level of time or effort.
Thanks BD and Yves Mornay! I’ve heard Bumble is probably a better option for older guys but I do enjoy the VYW as well so I’ll check out your book as well. I tend to do well with them naturally again because I look much younger and don’t come off as old man-ish like so many guys my age. They kill their chances with all the self deprecating about their age.
I can deal with the rejections since I approach a lot in real life so blowing off rejections online shouldn’t be a problem
Hollywood: Yeah no doubt, but I’m more than willing to mix it up and try to see if different things work. It’s no biggie there because I wasn’t planning on meeting those women anyway. With women I actually want to meet I stick with what I KNOW works.
BD: As anal as you are about testing your systems for ways that work, you probably had to have gone down some dead ends. It’s not like I wasn’t doing other more important things.
Crab: I use both Tinder and Bumble, and there doesn’t seem to be TOO much of a difference in the amount of YWV (18-22) matches I get. Still seems like they’re relatively rare on bumble too. I do think bumble has less fucking guys claiming that they’re women though (despite being the more liberal platform).
BD, Iâve been reading your blog for a little while now. Iâve read every post. Iâve read a few of your books. Every point you make, every statistic you quote, I do my due diligence and I research it. Just to see the facts. Youâre definitely one of the more rational, non-extremist guys in the manosphere. You just want to be happy and you want to live in accordance with what is natural/ what is actually possible and realistic when factoring in human nature. And I really respect that. Itâs sad to say, but a few days ago it finally hit me. The manosphere gets a lot of things right. The red pill leads us in the right direction, but theyâre missing a piece of the puzzle and I didnât realize it until finding your blog. The REAL, complete, hard-to-swallow truth is just like you say it is BD with one caveat.
Long-term, happy, monogamous relationships, for a majority of the population, just arenât healthy or possible. Unless youâre really unattractive, dumb, old, and/or unhealthy, it will not turn out well. Studies have made this clear, and anthropologists and sociologists are realizing this, many are just SP and donât want to say it outright. Some do. BD I might have to go further and say that even many human pair-bonds, long term ones, where youâre bonded and intimate, but you find your passion outside the relationship with MTLRs or FB, even those can and often do fade out, into really close, intimate friendships. The âI love him/her, but Iâm not in loveâ type of relationshipships. After reading a lot of studies, anecdotes, your blog, TRP, and putting it all together thatâs what it seems like. Researchers say we evolved to be serial monogamists, and thatâs how it looks. Even if I have an OTLR, me or my partner can and very likely will eventually get bored, sexually, after NRE. It might take longer because we have other partners, our testosterone levels will stay elevated for longer. But once that passion wears out, weâll become really close friends that have sex with others. Then much later, we will probably grow tired of each other and bicker into old age or get along well but have a dead bedroom.
TRP thinks you can have a healthy happy relationship forever, as long as youâre alpha enough. BD you know thatâs not true. Guys âlook up, how to make a relationship/marrige lastâ and see what comes up. Nothing but beta nonsense. Maybe because those LTRâs ARE for men with lower testosterone, who lack options. Even women distinguish between men they want to marry and men they want to fuck. AFBB is real. Itâs talked about in evolutionary psychology. Maybe romantic love, NRE, that feeling of being âin loveâ is just the mechanism that helps us come together and reproduce. That only lasts up to four years in some cases, usually less. At that point youâre still pair-bonded via oxytocin. So you just feel like  close friends. Sometimes that friendship companionate love can last another decade or so. But BD, what happens after thatâs over? Do you divorce, and repeat the process? As is the case with the reported increases in âgray divorceâ? Humans evolved to seek variety in all areas of life, including their sex lives. That ensures genetic variety, which we need. We either lust and fuck, or we court, fall in love, raise kids, stay in love until theyâre old enough to survive, then do it with someone else. Alphas do more of the former, betas the latter. Maybe  thatâs the real tough pill to swallow. What do you think?
I usually treat Tinder like apps as “email” type of conversation and extremely rarely answer right away, more hours or days later. It usually works. I don’t know if it’s suboptimal compared to a 10min chatting. I am worried to set up a frame where I would seem usually available for synchronous message chatting, which I avoid like the plague. I always purposely answer hours or days later any type of message unless it concerns timely logistics of a same day meeting in person. I want to set the frame that I am busy, and messages are only to set the next time we will meet and have sex. If a girl I already had sex with wants to talk, she contacts me, comes, we briefly talk and hug, then have sex, then we can hug and talk more. Exception is if a woman actually share informations that I find interesting and valuable.
I haven’t tracked a correlation between women response time and their IRL meeting probability. That’s an interesting point!
I agree with you, Ape. For me that is the only logical flaw in BDs system, he seems to expect attraction to last forever or close to that in an OLTR. I dont think OLTRs are that stable. They might be a more efficient way of maintaining a relationship than a regular LTR (and I’d say its debatable),but they will eventually fall to the same issues of regular monogamous relationships.
They key is not to get married, make sure you wont own anything to her after you two break up (some places have laws that basically makes it impossible, so move out of those places before pair bonding), be 100% outcome independent – wake up every day knowing that if you two break up today, it will be just fine and your life is set to move on. But the Open or monogamous relationship will eventually end the same way, so be ready to move on.
I think it is all about the mindset. When you know how it works and what you need to do, you set your expectations right and you make it work long term for you – be it in an OLTR, serial monogamy, multiple OLTRs, being perennially single (gets tougher as you age) or simply being a MGTOW. Whatever works for you, just make sure you dont set impossible expectations
JohnMurdoch, yeah I agree completely. Iâll say the typical AFC marriage/monogamous relationship is a risky move for any man, for sure.  Children complicate matters even more. OLTRs or not, what happens when they both fade? I think there should be more discussion on the best arrangement for co-parenting in the likelihood of breakup/separation/divorce. Including OLTRs. BD mentions using a parenting plan, makes sense. I was reading a little about whatâs called âbird-nest parentingâ. Instead of having the children go back and forth between homes, or even worse, have to move entirely, they stay put. The parents move, both taking turns living in the home with the children, and in a separate studio/apartment for when they need space. Just one possible way to do it I guess.
I’m gonna disagree with this advice as a “rule”. Especially if you are going after women over 33. Women are scared little pups now days. Women are resisting very quick interactions to meets more now days. Shit I always ask for their number before I even pitch a date. I message back and forth to establish some vibe than get their number. If they give you their number fat lady just sang.  I think it’s much more important to meet them quickly. As in pitch to date. In fact it’s the single most important thing with online dating. I go for that night or the soonest possible night. The quicker the better. The women who meet faster are the women who will usually fuck you faster. I have never had a woman resist a quick meet if she is really interested. They take it as huge compliment and consider it “spontaneous”. All you’re trying to do is separate her as quickly as possible from the all the passive betas throwing her attention and make her remember what it’s like to be on a date with a man who makes her panties wet.
So I disagree about the details but agree in principle. Just approach the whole defeating time in a different way.
I’d argue that the only true exception to this rule is Fet Life.
The women you meet on there have to be comfortable AYY EFF with you before they meet you, so pitching to early with them can and dismissing them if they aren’t immediately comfortable wouldn’t be rational. For that site obviously attracts predators and bad actors.
The upside to that site though is that you can effortlessly announce your Poly and it would be the norm.
YES. That is something I’ll have to invest myself in a not so far future when the time comes for me to reproduce.
Yes but the split second I realized they were dead ends I instantly stopped doing them and never did them again, and I certainly didn’t suggest them as a possible technique on a blog.
Sure. That may happen the majority of the time as well. It’s a pity we don’t have stats on this.
Only half accurate. Women are serial monogamists. Men are polygamists; I want to fuck all of these girls but none of them can fuck any other man. Proof: serial monogamist men still cheat.
Sure.
There is no perfect long-term pair-bonding system, as I’ve said many times. We’re only looking at least-bad.
But there won’t be a dead bedroom, because the guy will be getting laid left and right with his FBs, i.e. the dead bedroom won’t be relevant.
I’ve said before that if Pink Firefly stopped having sex with me, it wouldn’t be ideal, but it would be just fine. I’ve got my FBs.
Again, least-bad.
That’s up to you, whatever makes you the most long-term happy.
I don’t disagree with anything you said, except maybe that it’s a tough pill to swallow. I never had a huge problem with it and many other men don’t, but it depends on the man.
You’re doing the manosphere thing of looking for the perfect long-term solution and getting a little sad that there isn’t any. Outcome independence! Live your life and stop giving a shit!
I have never said this and clearly said the exact opposite on multiple occasions. Please read item #41 here and item #2 here as just two examples.
My experience is most or at least half of the woman do this and I did not notice any correlation with getting actual dates or not from them.
Furthermore, I see that often they do not ghost if they don’t want to meet / give number right away but try to push for taking longer chatting. What is the right thing to do then?
Great, thanks!! Specially the effort of going to find examples. Somehow I missed that despite following your content for a while
Tinder is the site for women who are on break, broken up, have a bf who is cheating, need some attention, and etc. That’s why the slow response, sudden disappearing act, longer chatting, and etc… If they were ready and serious they would be on an actual site. I use tinder with that assumption and use it as just an accessory to my base apps. I have actually talked to women on there who only wanted to chat and then later once they got serious and went to another site I pitched them quickly and got them out…
BD,you often said than women lsfnte Alphas in order to be with Betas,because they will promise monogamy.But if that girl who is with an Alpha fucks other guys on the side,will she still lsfnte the Alpha for not promising monogamy?
What does that statement change? Statistically she most likely will anyway.
Likely yes. What’s the deal though? If she was an MLTR or an FB, who cares. And an OLTR is supposed to have feelings towards you, that’s what you offer that the hypothetical beta doesn’t.
Move on. The longer you talk to a woman, the lower your odds become of ever meeting her in real life. And it doesn’t matter what reason she gives.
As I’ve explained before, Tinder has become a cross between a dating site and a social media site. A huge amount of women are on Tinder using it for pure social validation rather than the desire to actually go meet a new guy in real life.
Of course. It’s happened to me scores of times. But they always come back to me so I don’t really care.
I think thereâs always levels of outcome independence to achieve. Especially for the newer guys. And a lot of social programming to work through, initially. I think thatâs the whole point of using the âredpillâ metaphor, from the Matrix. There always new information that you have to adjust to, and sometimes that adjustment is uncomfortable. Thatâs in every part of life too. I think for most people, no matter how alpha, wonder about whoâs going to be around when theyâre older. And men try to get all of their emotional intimacy from women. Thatâs a problem, you definitely canât be outcome independent like that. But we all do NEED intimacy in some form, our physical health is tied to it, believe it or not. Loneliness can kill your outcome independence, and kill you, literally. Â Maybe the key is for men to build closer male friendships, statistics show we really lack those.
Btw BD.. Â youâre knocking shit out of the park with your posts and this site overall.. Â this site is a life saver.. Â I mean that..
1. Â TRT – helped me with that decision.. Â that is a massive advantage in life for a man..
2. Â Health and lifestyle – lost 40 lbs
2. Â Divorce – after trt I had the confidence to believe I could be happier outside of a toxic marriage
3. Â Pussy – I get lots of it at almost 50. I open and close women from 20âs to 40âs.
4. Â Financial – Â make more than Iâve ever made.. Â have money pouring in but more importantly Iâm not stupidly throwing it away on women.. Â I just bought a Audi A5 at auction price.. Â nice little pussy magnet and paid 12k.. I make it a point to spend very little on my SMV and I still get good pussy whenever I want..
All shit I learned primarily on this site..
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy new year brother..
I’m glad I could help!
Ape: I’m currently reading “No more Mr. Nice Guy”, and I think he is very very right about a lot of the psychology underlying modern western men. Most men for the past several generations have been raised by women (fathers at work more/single mothers, then going to schools that have overwhelmingly women teachers,etc). Add on heaping amounts of gynocentrism laden SP and you have a recipe for men seeking approval/validation of women.
He suggests exactly what you do, in that men need to form close bonds with other men. And men DO bond differently with other men, since typically there’s not that underlying sexual dynamic there.
From my observations, if she invests/getting more compliant/replying fast, you should pitch the date right away. My usual routine is something like this:
Me using [voice messages] seducing her –> getting her to hooked by she replying longer –> ask her ”are you adventurous” (screen non constraint quality) –> closed questioning her ”do u like ice cream/smoothie/cocktail” –> she said A/B/C –> pitch the date
simple, like you said, i had more successes by asking a younger/college students out as a 26 year old guy.
Also, online game seems changed, personally i had more successes by myself using voice messages.
BD,
Curious if you’d be willing to write a post up directly related to swipe dating apps. It’s briefly mentioned here, but a post with some dedicated examples detailing the distinct differences between your swipe app approach and your online dating approach would be immensely helpful.
For example, your TEP questions seem more suited for long, e-mail-like responses that you would expect from women on online dating sites. Do you ask shorter questions that require less investment on her part for swipe apps like Tinder and Bumble?
(Only a post on the differences though — obviously anyone wanting the full rundown should buy the dating eBooks)
Thanks!
You are so on point about the women from Toronto.
Why do you think they have the anger you think they have?