The Difference Between OLTR Marriage and Traditional Marriage
Strangely, there still seems to be confusion with some of you about the fact I’m getting an OLTR Marriage, which I’ve talked about wanting to do for at least six years, while also saying that men shouldn’t get traditionally, monogamously married. I will do my best to explain this as simply as I can. (Again.)
In terms of Alpha Male 2.0, there are two kinds of marriages. There is OLTR Marriage and traditional monogamous marriage, or TMM.
OLTR Marriage means you live with a woman you call a “wife” but do so under three conditions:
1. The relationship is pair-bonded but not monogamous. It’s an open marriage / relationship. You are allowed to have sex with all the other women you want, provided they’re FBs.
2. Legally speaking, there is either no legal marriage (co-habitation agreement, domestic partnership, or some other legal agreement instead) or there is a legal marriage but there is an enforceable prenuptial agreement or similar in place (which are unavailable in most of today’s left-wing Western world). There are about eight or nine different ways to do this, some good and some bad, all listed here.
3. All finances are 100% separate in all respects. There are no co-owned debts, assets, accounts, or leases. Everything is separate financially in documented and legal ways. You can still support your wife if you really want to; you can just give her money if this is the case, but there is no joint accounts of any kind, ever. (Indeed, doing this may actually violate, and thus invalidate, the paperwork you signed in number two above.)
Other than those three things, the OLTR Marriage looks and feels just like a typical marriage, or at least can. You can have a wedding, have engagement rings, she can change her last name, and so on. As long as it’s an open marriage where you’re having sex with other women and there’s a legally enforceable and forever separation of finances, those kinds of things are all window dressing and don’t really matter (at least not in most jurisdictions; there are exceptions to all rules of course).
On the other side of the coin, you have traditional monogamous marriage, or TMM, which no longer works in the Western world, hasn’t for several decades now, and continues to get worse. Regardless, most people are either delusional or stupid and do it anyway. TMM is pretty much the opposite of an OLTR Marriage. In a TMM:
1. Absolute sexual monogamy is expected by both partners, at all times, literally forever. If either of them get sexual in any way with anyone else (which they usually do, eventually) and gets caught (which they almost always do) there is a huge explosion of drama in the marriage, and the marriage itself may even end.
2. It is a 100% legal marriage registered at the local courthouse and is recognized by the country and state/province and there is no prenuptial agreement or similar. (Or there is, but it’s in a left-wing jurisdiction like the UK, California, or Australia where it isn’t enforceable worth a shit and will be instantly tossed out of court if challenged.) If there is ever a divorce (and most likely there will be) the man will be absolutely fucked financially, sexually, and she’ll probably get his kids too.
3. Husband and wife combine all of their finances with zero protection for either partner. Like the complete idiots they are, they have joint checking accounts, joint debts, joint cell phones, they’re both on the lease or mortgage for where they live, and so on. If there is ever a divorce (and most likely there will be) untangling the finances between the two parties will be an absolute fucking nightmare that may take years of battling over.
As I’ve been saying loudly and publicly for almost a decade, TMM is one of the the biggest, absolutely stupidest things a man in the modern, Western world can do. If you get actually traditionally, monogamously married, you’re in one of these three categories:
A. You’re delusional idiot with temporary oneitis who isn’t thinking straight, and by the time you snap out of it and get back to any sort of rationality, it will be way too late.
or
B. You’re a beta male with no game, no real money, and no actual plans to ever have either. This means you’re such a loser that you don’t see the downsides of TMM as a real problem.
or
C. You’re a guy who secretly likes conflict and drama, and thus don’t mind at all if you have nuclear explosions in your life down the road after your temporary NRE high is over. (I’ve seen several Alpha Male 1.0s in the pick-up artist community in this category.)
You’re one of those three if you get a TMM these days (and in the Western world). You can’t be anything else.
At the same time, as I’ve been saying for at least six years, OLTR Marriage, on the other hand, if done correctly and you’re well over the age of 35, is perfectly fine. And yes, I’ve been saying this for at least six years. Please look at this article and look at the date at the bottom, or just look at the URL. I wrote it in 2012, six years ago, and it clearly states that I wanted an OLTR Marriage and laid out an example of how I would do it.
So yeah, I’ve wanted an OLTR Marriage for at least six years. At the same time, yes, I’ve also said things like “If you get married, you’re an idiot.” Whenever I say that, I’m referring to TMM, not OLTR Marriage. It’s really not complicated.
TMM is stupid. OLTR Marriage is fine (at least for some older men, provided you’re very careful).
I have never changed my mind.
I have never gone back on what I said I wanted.
I have never changed my opinion.
I have been very consistent about this.
Indeed, as I’ve said before and I’ll say again, I have been the most ideologically consistently content provider in the entire manosphere. At no point in the last 11 years have I lived one way then suddenly said that way was bad and now I need to live in some new way. Most other long-term content providers in the manosphere and pick-up artist community can not say the same. (I won’t mention any names, but I could. A lot.) They’re players, then they turn around and say being a player is bad and that monogamy is the way to go.
Stupid.
I have been consistent: Absolute sexual monogamy is never the way to go. You can pair-bond if you want. You can even get married if you want (as long as it’s an OLTR Marriage) but you can never get long-term monogamous and never combine your finances with a female. That shit doesn’t work anymore and you’re a fuckin’ moron if you do this (or you secretly like drama).
I have an OLTR Marriage with Pink Firefly, and have since January of this year when she moved in with me. Our wedding is in a week, but that doesn’t change anything. I will still continue to have sex regularly with my FBs on the side just like I do now, and that will never stop. It will probably lessen in frequency over time, but it will never stop. (And if you think it will, just watch me. If the last 11 years have shown anything, it has shown that I mean what I say, I walk my talk, and I am as constant as the North Star.)
As I’ve said before, for legal reasons, I can’t tell you exactly how our legal arrangements are structured, but I hint at it here. What I can tell you is that our finances are and will remain legally and enforceably separate, forever and always. They’re actually required to remain separate to ensure that the legally enforceable agreements and documents we’ve signed remain enforceable. I have numerous layers of asset protection in place. Moreover, we’re leaving the country in a few years (sooner than I planned, actually) and I’m internationalizing my assets, both of which will provide even more protection.
So remember, when I say “men shouldn’t get married” or “marriage is fucking stupid” I am referring to TMM, not OLTR Marriage. OLTR Marriage, something I’ve been clear I’ve wanted for many years, is perfectly fine as long as you do it correctly and you’re an older guy.
I will write an entire book on how to structure and have an OLTR Marriage. I already have lots of notes and a basic structure for the book, but I want to wait until my OLTR Marriage with Pink Firefly is three years old and everything is still great, so I have some credibility on this before I publish it. That means December of 2020. So for those of you who have asked, please be patient.
And if you ever see anyone say anything like “Blackdragon went back on his word and got married after he said marriage sucks,” send that dumbass a link to this article. (Assuming that guy knows how to read. He may not.)
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Still even if not TMM, FBs+OLTR cohabitation or marriage has huge downsides compared to MLTRs+FBs.
And I commented on this slightly a few blog posts back. I didn’t get the perception that anyone thinks you went back on your words. I do get the perception that some of your readers are disheartened that you are now married. Not necessarily because they feel you weren’t true to your words, but moreso, because they somewhat live vicariously through you, and OLTR or TMM Marriages do not sound like something they want.
If you get that, you can see that up until you chose an OLTR, many guys want to be on the same path as you. However I think many guys (myself included) are somewhat turned off at the thought of any type of marriage, and don’t see themselves maybe ever taking that on in the future. Therefore, their ability to continue on a similar path as you, falls off right at this moment.
I wouldn’t even say it’s a disappointment, it just means your path from this point is now less relatable to those like me who aren’t really interested in any type of marriage probably ever. I think I explained it best I could now. I am also only 35. Perhaps my view on it can change, but as I read some of your stuff on OLTR, I struggle to convince myself that I will ever want that. Don’t get me wrong.. I actually enjoy reading your perspective on it, to see if I can ever see it your way. I like the idea of it perhaps, but just don’t believe I will ever want that for myself ultimately. Therefore when it comes to your takes on OLTR, I get a little disengaged, but it is still interesting because I do want to learn from your experiences in OLTR as well in case my mind ever changes on the issue.
One of my buddies plans to get a TMM, I got half a mind to DM him this link next time I get on social media. Known the guy on and off for over 20 years and I know he’s making a big mistake and if he gets a TMM, that shit’s gonna break down FAST.
@joelsuf
I’ve tried to warn my friends and every single one is so brainwashed they don’t want to hear it. One of my friends is currently getting screwed over in a divorce. Tried to unplug him and he listens to me but I can see in his eyes that its going in one ear and out the other. Its nearly impossible to unplug even close friends.
Side note
I wanted to thank BD for for changing my life! Im 37. I separated from my cheating wife in June. I read/ skimmed 4 of his books. Opened up 3 online dating accounts July 29th and I had 3 dates 31, 32, and a 21 year old all were at least a 7 in my book. Had sex with the 21 the first night we met and she came back the very next day and has been texting me like crazy ever since. I am just floored how well your system works BD. I know it’s off topic but dam, that was just the first week.. THANK YOU!
Correct, and I have said this many times. That’s why most men reading these words shouldn’t do it.
Then your perception is inaccurate, or you haven’t read what I’ve read (and I’m not just talking about this website).
Once again, this is a link-to post. I can just link this to anyone in the future, so I’ll never need to repeat myself again. Thank god.
I’m sure that’s true with a small percentage of my readers, but this is an emotional, irrational reaction, and thus nothing I give a shit about. This is doubly true with readers like this who are young. (Of course you don’t want to live with a woman yet. You’re young. I’m not young.)
Bingo. 35. That’s the precise age cutoff for this stuff, as I’ve said many times. Just wait a few years and see how you feel about this.
Not perhaps. It will, eventually. I’d bet $10,000 on it. It might not even be until you’re over 50, but it will happen. Just watch.
THAT SHOULD NOT BE YOUR OBJECTIVE. YOU ARE LOOKING AT THIS COMPLETELY ASS-BACKWARDS.
YOUR GOAL HERE IS NOT TO EMULATE ME. YOUR GOAL HERE IS TO FIND YOUR OWN PERSONAL LONG-TERM HAPPINESS. IF THAT MEANS FBS AND MLTRS FOREVER, THAT’S GREAT, DO THAT, AND FORGET ABOUT WHAT I’M DOING. YOU’RE NOT ME.
I’M NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE THAT MY SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL PATH IS THE BEST FOR EVERYONE. IT ISN’T. MOST MEN READING THESE WORDS SHOULD NOT HAVE A LIVE-IN OLTR OF ANY KIND, AS I CLEARLY SPELLED OUT HERE.
Correct. By the time a beta male or Alpha Male 1.0 is engaged, it’s already too late. He’s not going to listen to any logic, reality, or facts until a few years later when he’s in the middle of divorce court.
You’re very welcome. That’s why I’m here.
To the guys on here who think they should try to convince their buddies not to get TMM, if you value your time, forget it.
Every single one of my mates who I did this with were eventually put through the divorce grinding machine and came out the other end broken, mentally and financially.
I do still spend my time trying to help these men rebuild after their ordeals but even that is a waste of time, particularly with the ones that remarry again a few years later.
The issue with theses guys is that they are weak betas who need to be in a relationship to function and fear being alone. Once their women sense this neediness the pressure to put a ring on it mounts and the death grip is tightened. I think deep down some may realise what is coming but they can’t help it and do the walk of death anyway.
Perhaps I’m being unfair here but I have more time and patience for some of the guys on here who want to listen and learn.
The site and materials are effective and you younger guys are lucky to have this shit available to you to save you huge amounts of time, money and pain in the future.
To the others, Good Luck, you boys are gonna need it.
And I get that, but your recipe for Alpha 2.0 happiness seems to include eventual OLTR Marriage, at least YOUR personal happiness. Since you are spot on about all this stuff, I tend to think emulating some of the larger decisions you make would probably result in the same level happiness in myself.
Thus the point of my comment. This is the one sticking point of your own personal happiness I do not agree with for myself–at least right now. But no worries, I fully intend to follow my own path in this regard, and MLTRs and FB‘s sounds perfect to me.
Without trying to put a damper on your success, I am actually observing the details you provide about this OLTR Marriage, anticipating at some point, maybe even years from now, you will tell us it probably isn’t the best idea or something, once you’ve went through it and had some time to really assess it. Something about any type of marriage still makes me very nervous. Seems too much to invest in something that you have even said is not going to last forever. And I’m not just talking monetarily.
Sounds like you’ve done your research.
I’m 30 and unmarried — haven’t met the right woman but yeah obviously my own parents are divorced and reading this blog and seeing some friends and cousins (already) get divorced at my age and all that ‘heartbreak’ and bullshit … yeah I’m not enthused at the idea.
Sounds like you really tried to minimize your financial and legal risks here BUT they are not 0% like in Columbia, from what you’ve presented. In other words, even in the perfect BD scheme you STILL might be cohabitating for 7 years (or X yrs) and then legally have a “common law” marriage and then open to fucking by the long dick of the law.
I know this is completely impractical, but if you were very wealthy, could you throw in a loophole to the cohabitation element? Like, you live in a ‘townhome’ or 3 flat or have a “guest house” that she lives in? Massive pain the ass for sure. Is the law concerned with her legal residence or actual residence and how is that defined?
And actually sleeping apart for 1-2 days a week (or more) might actually be a massive boon.
I know a guy who travels for work like 2 weeks every month (out to Europe) and I’m sure his marriage is great. No time to get fucking sick of each other lol
I already addressed that issue in great detail here. If it lasts more than four years, then it was a good idea. (If it lasts longer than seven years, it was a great idea. If it lasts more than ten, it was a fantastic idea.)
Only if it lasts less than four years will I call it a mistake. And I will publicly admit this if this fails before December 2021. The odds are in my favor though.
I have. Extensively.
Very stupid statement. Of course nothing you do in this kind of scenario is 0% risk.
I already addressed that in great detail in item #3 here.
Moreover, I won’t even be in this country 7 years from now. Even in your worst case scenario, good luck having some American court enforce something when I’m living in Hong Kong and all of my assets are offshore and I have multiple passports to travel with.
Yes, but frankly, if you’re very wealthy, most of your wealth would be (or should be) in offshore trusts that couldn’t be touched by a divorce either way, so the weirdness you’re describing wouldn’t be necessary.
Its true, most of the people I’ve known 20+ years scoff at me trying to Alpha 2. Crazy enough, most of the chicks I get with are more inviting to it than most, and many of them are 33+. How crazy is that!
Also, this is completely off topic, but does anyone else need to put in their info every time they comment? I’ve had to do this for the last few days or so…
Do you use the “L” word with your live in wife? Or any of the side chicks? Do the side chicks ever cause drama wanting something more serious? Do you ever fear a “metoo” scenario with these hoes? What are the attractiveness levels? Will you bang a nasty side chick just for freedom and variety sake?
Sorry for the personal questions lol feel free to ignore me. Anyone else can share their experience too.
Yes. All the time.
Never. You don’t love your FBs. (And if you do, something is horribly wrong.)
Never. They’re all FBs, have been FBs for quite a while, and have known about PF all along. Most of them have boyfriends. Some of them are sugar babies.
I follow the 2% Rule so no.
Extremely hot. All of the regular ones are nines. (And remember the 1 to 10 scale is totally subjective.) Some of the side/backup ones are eights or sevens.
No, and I don’t even understand the question. I like really hot girls, not ugly girls.
Now variety in my hot girls, yes. For example, I tend to prefer FBs who look very different than PF, though this doesn’t always happen.
There are so many possibilities:
1) the pink Firefly does not exist
2) you nothing about women (nawalt) stating that marriage does not change anything
3) you have a rich fantasy
4) your beauty standards are weird
I was reading the last Roosh post, which is on the same topic:
http://www.rooshv.com/pick-only-one-for-your-society-pre-marital-sex-or-marriage
My god, he and most of his commenters are really going nowhere in term of women and relationships, going circles between their 1950s TMM fantasy and banging one night stands. Another useless and stupid article which doesn’t help anyone.
Thanks BD for exposing a middle path which really helps men remaining or becoming happy in their women life with clear actionable steps.
Yes, same problem for me today. I have to insert my details each time I comment.
Well, obviously OLTR has a lot of advantages over TMM, particularly in terms of the legal and financial arrangments. No matter how pear shaped it goes, it can’t go TOO bad, because the worst is that you separate with minimum cost.
But there still seems to some significant restrictions and sacrifices, mostly related to:
Provided they are FBs. So, Pink Firefly is going to be your only partner for all activities with a woman apart from sex with FBs? You’re never going to experience NRE again? You can’t spend the weekend at the beach with any other woman?
I agree fully that monogamy is a doomed concept. I just think even this emotional monogamy idea is doomed, too.
I got one MLTR that I’m gonna take to a boxing match. Another one I’d take to a high brow theater performance.
I think I can envisage the idea of a primary MLTR and secondary MLTRs. You might live with the primary (although I probably wouldn’t), she would be first amongst equals, you’d probably see her more often than the other, and not this just once a week thing. But you could still do stuff other than just have sex with other women.
I think I remember Pink Firefly saying she’d be really unhappy if you ever even shared a meal with an FB. I imagine a scenario like this:
PF: I can’t believe you ate a HAMBURGER with a FUCKBUDDY! How could you betray me like that?!
BD: Awwww, honey. It didn’t mean nuffin’. We wuz hungry. It was just a biological urge. We didn’t even talk to each other while we wuz eating.
I got as far as him saying that casual sex should be made illegal. That’s when my screen went dark and an ad for one of his books appeared promising to teach me how to bang a bunch of women!
I hate Roosh so much! He is such a hypocritical piece of filth!
AS it isn’t directly mentioned in the article and just to be clear , Can Pink Firefly fuck other guys in your OLTR marriage?
@BD
How much are you paying them?
I imagine sugar babies would be pretty cheap in Portland.
Where are you having sex with them? The ones you and PF don’t see together, are you seeing them at their place or somewhere else, or do you have sex with them at your place when PF isn’t there?
I do not see how this could possibly ever be an issue. If you have made an agreement as part of the marriage then thats that and it cannot be challenged in court under any circumstances. Agreement is an agreement and that is that. If any judge would even remotely suggest something like this I would laugh at him and call for his immediate resignation because clearly he isn’t qualified for the job.
You’ll eventually see Pink Firefly in photos or videos. I can’t hide her forever. It will be a while though. (And then you’ll say she’s a model I hired. Or something. What is it like being a troll?)
I’ll ask my web guy about it. Most guys aren’t having the problem so it seems to be browser-specific.
Correct. Which is what I want. I got tired of dating multiple women several years ago. Not fucking multiple women; I’ll always like that; I mean dating other women. I did that for a decade. I’m good now.
Correct. Again, I don’t care. (I could experience the excitement of a new FB, but that’s not quite NRE.)
Remember, I’m 46 years old. If you’re a younger guy this would probably sound terrible. Which is why younger men shouldn’t have OLTRs.
Correct, and fuck, I would never want to do that! I’m too busy working to be “going to the beach” with multiple chicks.
Read this.
Yes, MLTRs are fucking awesome. If that’s what you want, do that.
There is no right or wrong here; MLTR and OLTR are both good, depending on the man and his personality and age.
A) I wouldn’t be that silly and B) Pink Firefly wouldn’t react that way.
Yeah I saw that too.
Gotta love the manosphere.
$150 per meet or less. I can get it that low because I follow all the sugar daddy advice in this book.
CONTEXT: Remember, I’m a very high-income, busy, 46 year-old man with strong game. I meet all the requirements listed here. If you don’t, you should never pay women for sex.
I got a cheap office with no windows about 15 minutes from my house, decorated like an apartment. I use that.
At the office. I’ve agreed to not have women over to the house unless she wants them there, which is fine with me. (With some of them, I actually like the fact they have no idea where I live.)
Utterly incorrect and you really need to do your research and talk to some attorneys. Preups and prenup like agreements can be invalidated for a host of reasons. They also can’t override local law, so if you’re in LA and you have to pay alimony to a woman forever if the marriage goes past 10 years, that law has precedent over your prenup (as just one of hundreds of examples).
#MeToo applies only to the work/employment context, and BD has been very clear that he never hooks up with women he works with or who work for his clients until after the project is done.
Plus, I’m sure he saves all the texts, IMs, e-mails, etc., he exchanges with the women to set up meets, which establishes consensuality.
AND most importantly, #MeToo depends almost entirely on exposing the targeted man and getting his employer to pre-emptively fire him ad a (liability) defensive move. Well, they can’t get BD fired. And there’s no deep dark secrets about, say, his poly lifestyle to expose ‘cuz they’re all out on the Internet already and have been for years.
So #MeToo basically has no leverage here.
Correct.
Correct.
Correct. Alpha Male 2.0s are independent and sovereign men who can never be fired. Yet another reason to be one.
Hey BD,if PF gets NRE with a FB(which is unlikely under the Oltr rules),would you downgrade her to MLTR,or will you keep her as an OLTR and wait for the NRE which is temporary to pass?
Bd,besides the Live In Oltr marriage book which will appear in 2020,do you have other books that you will create until then,like a part 2 for Samspon and the wizard,or other seduction books?
Hmm I live in California
And yes.. I wouldn’t mind to be OLTR Married one day.
It’s funny you’;d think the crazy Feminists would be all for legit Women equality and Pre-Nups. There has to be a way to get an Enforceable Pre-Nup here.
If not I’ll have use the 5 Flags plan and move to Mexico.. LOL
This is why I’m jumping into the BDSM Community more.. I feel like some of the women there TRULY are Independent Bad Bitches who like to do their own thing and don’t need your money. Obviously not all the women are, many will be typical but hey.. doesn’t hurt to try.
At first, when I read a few of your articles I found them witty and fun, but the more I read, the more confused I get.
So, how can one person be special to you ( your spouse I mean ) if you sleep with others? This should be one of the special stuff you as a couple do. I don’t think you can detach yourself emotionally from that- unless you’re a robot.
Anyways I am going to read you once in a while as I ‘ve done so far. Your blog is intriguing, interesting and fun!
Congrats on your marriage.. Btw, I’m curious about your Sugar Babies.. Do provide them with an allowance or do you have some other financial arrangement with them?
Man, I just read the Roosh article after some people mentioned it on there, it is so funny!
Actually, I am starting to doubt if he is serious, it reads like an article from The Onion.
You also cannot be realistically fired if you have a good contract or are irreplaceable in your job. For example if they need to pay you a huge money for dismissal and at the same time you have an important role on business critical project and some woman starts talking shit about you they are gonna fire the woman, I can guarantee you. If she complains to the press / police they will cover it up / hire mercenaries to deal with the situation.
If I make an agreement with someone which they accept its above the law of any jurisdiction anywhere for all time. Laws are just for affairs of plebs.
I am starting to use #metoo when I have a bad date with a girl who didnt want to have sex fast / waste my time.
She’s allowed to have NRE for an FB as long as the man stays an FB (all of which is somewhat unlikely).
If she started getting feelings for the FB, then yes, I would end the relationship. And I would expect her to do the same with me if I started getting feelings for an FB (which will never happen; my brain doesn’t work that way).
Not many, but yes, but not any I’m willing to announce yet.
Sampson and the Wizard is a tough one, since I really like writing those and people really like them, but I haven’t developed a profit model for that books that work. (It’s really hard to make decent money selling a $9 book with no back-end.)
I am announcing something very big here in about two weeks, but it’s not a book. It’s something way better.
California is, most likely, the single worst place for a man to get a legal, traditional marriage in the entire world. Even places like Canada, New York, and Australia aren’t as bad legally as California (and those places are really bad).
I’ve been doing it for 12 years. It’s easy. Sex with a condom is just a physical act with no negative side effects. Anything more to it is false Societal Programming you are choosing to add within your own mind only. Read this and this.
I give them a little cash every time we meet. If we don’t meet they get nothing. Never do an allowance with a sugar baby. You’re just asking to get ripped off if you do that. Read chapters 16 and 17 in this book for an exact layout of the system I use for sugar baby management.
Regarding the pick-up artists getting into TMMs – this is something I have always found amazing. The whole pick-up community was a huge success – bunch of guys from all over the (western?) world got their heads together on the internet, exchanged their experiences and observations, came up with various theories and techniques, tested them and reported back to others etc. Internet made it possible to get past limited individual experiences and from ‘collective experience’ extrapolate patterns of woman behaviour and over time allowed men to quite successfully ‘decode’ how women work regarding getting to sex fast. It helped many men to get laid and for most of them the first step was admitting, upon seeing the experience of so many others, that the standard societal narrative about how women and their sexuality work is complete bullshit. Making this admission requires at least some intelligence (to see the pattern) and maturity/humility (to admit that what they ‘knew’ their whole lives is wrong). And here comes the amazing part – everybody who is not a complete idiot sees that TMM is just doesn’t lead to long term happiness, the evidence is everywhere. Yet the same people who swallowed the red pill regarding female sexuality are just incapable of doing the same with monogamy and Disney 50’s TMM fantasy. Selective rationality like this is astounding, especially since these people already know how women work, at least to a large extent.
Makes me wonder whether I am similarly blind/ignorant in some areas of life as well. I’d like to believe I am not – I may be very wrong about some things, but I think that upon seeing a lot of evidence which contradicts my belief I would be able to change my mind, because I’ve done that in the past. Any idea about how to identify things we are completely wrong about but don’t realise it?
150$ per meet is more or less what I would expect (but perhaps I am incorrect?) to pay with a prostitute in the Portland area, and no game required at all. That is for a “short time” service, meaning up to one hour sex session maximum.
Thus my questions:
A. How long is your sex session in average with the sugar babies for the average 150$ “gift”? (I insist about the sex session, I don’t care how long you spend doing other stuffs than just sex, or preparing the sex. Sex starting at least at [kissing+genitals touching and no more than 15 minutes before penis inside mouth or other orifice]).
B. Why bother with sugar baby game and not just go for straightforward prostitutes? Is there a point I am missing? I mean you being a high income busy guy, it seems to me like going the straightforward route of prostitution would be [time+money] more cost effective for you than sugar baby route at 150$ per meet for very similar results.
(I plan myself to be able to go virtually full p4p route past a certain age, I like the extreme straightforwardness of prostitution no game and minimal talk required. Still possible to sample many women and keep as regular service providers the best of them. I am also curious about what sexbots and advanced VR with whole body feedback will offer in 2035)
Heh. I’m aware I don’t fit with those criteria at the moment, but it does make me find the 1MLTR+escorts / 1FB+ escorts arrangement pretty acceptable by my own standards. My sex drive is moderate anyway, and I would only pay for it about a dozen times per year or so. I’m gonna be way too busy the next couple years to date more than 1 woman at a time, 2 at the absolute most (2+ dates per week? way more during a blitz? please kill me). When I’m ready for heavier dating I’ll start phasing that out.
Agreed, good points. Men already did have some possibilities for informing each other of these patterns in a more distant past, but the internet was definitely a game changer. The sample became way closer to the whole world population.
@Gang: Agreed. But I’m guessing it’s because of BD’s rule of never breaking the law. I wonder what the real odds of being caught are, whether in the US or in countries with the nordic model where only the client is punished.
Yeah, sites like SA push the “allowance” model big time (think of it as pussy on retainer), probably as a CYA against accusations of promoting prostitution.
Giving young women something they want NOW in advance of them fulfilling their end of the agreement later – what could go wrong?
Well, sugar babies usually aren’t pros, just VYW looking for a little extra cash and the frisson of doing something forbidden. A pro is likely gonna charge you more, and you’re just her 3:00 so hurry up so she’s not late for her 4:00 who, by the way tips better than you do, etc.
There are quality pro escorts out there, but if you see her/them on a regular basis, the out-of-pocket is soon gonna hit the wife level.
Uh, I mean, that’s what this guy I know told me…..
You need to try both to get it.
There’s a difference between fucking a hooker and a girl who’s at least somewhat into you (as well as your money, of course).
Um, yeah. See how that works out for you in a court of law.
There are many specific laws governing contracts in any country. You just can’t make any ol’ agreement you want and expect a court to enforce it for you. Google this “contract of adhesion”.
@Ionela
Societal Programming at its most insidious. I thought this was just “the way it’s supposed to be” until I was about 42. And of course when you’re young and overwhelmed by serious NRE, it seems to be perfectly right: you’re found The One and only lover you’ll ever need and will be enthralled by her forever, etc.
The reality is NRE always off. You may still care deeply for the other person….but you start craving a little variety, somebody new.
As I’ve gotten older, I’ve finally realized that if you care about an LTR and want to maximize its longevity (while remembering that ALL relationships eventually end), TMM is the *fastest* way to kill it.
Good point. Then if that’s the only reason BD, what about when in New Zealand where it’s legal?
Huge difference. At the risk of getting all Mantak Chia, energy polarity, New Age on ya, good sex involves an exchange of sexual energy, which means mutual sexual attraction. No hooker has any real feeling of attraction to a client, the best it gets is that she appreciates a good customer who treats her well and doesn’t give her shit. People in the service industry aren’t friends with their clients, they serve them for financial reward.
I don’t really like sugar daddy game much, either. It’s still based on an idea that women give something to men for which they should be rewarded. I never expect to be paid if a woman I’m with has multiple orgasms, and I don’t see why I should pay her. I’m actually doing sugar daddy a lot less as I’m getting older.
I can see that both have a place, but if that’s all you’re getting, you’re sex life is limited and you’re missing something big.
PS Same with the name memory thing. No big deal, I just type it in.
In my experience when you go for freelance prostitutes who are not too expensive and very young in the business, you can find some that are really to your sexual taste. Then if you start seeing a few of them quite regularly like each every month or every couple of weeks, you can easily keep the price arround the 150$. Especially for a guy like BD who is very vanilla in sex. Many of these women enjoy to have a basis of regular clients, who plan meetings in advance and never cancel, and don’t mind maintaining their fare affordable to them.
It’s just that sugar daddy sites and game seems to me much more time consuming than just directly sampling freelance prostitutes/escorts and agreeing on a price. So for a high income busy guy, I would expect to pay 3 times less than prostitution with sugar babies for it to be worth the hassle of game and scheduling+flakiness.
Heck with most prostitute the logistics are so much easier. You can agree in advance if you prefer incall or outcall, the precise day and hour.
Yes. Acknowledge reality regardless of how you feel. Does how you feel match the facts, realities, and statistics? If it doesn’t, you’re being irrational. If it does, you’re on the right track.
Depends on the day and how I feel. Usually around 15-20 minutes or so, not including talking. It’s usually a wham-bam-thank-you-maam thing, unlike when I have sex with Pink Firefly which can easily go 45 minutes or longer.
Other guys have answered that above already. The bottom line is that sugar babies are normal girls (at least most of them). Prostitutes are definitely not.
My sugar baby FBs are great. But I once fucked two hookers in Vegas just to see what it was like. I hated it, even though they were very attractive. The entire experience was just… fake and gross. At least in my opinion. I know many men love fucking hookers and if you’re one of them, great, go for it. It’s just not for me. I like ongoing relationships with normal people.
Place this in the context of an OLTR marriage, I don’t think it’s very relevant, the point is just to satisfy a biological urge for some sexual variety. Plus between sugar babies and prostitutes I think it’s mostly denial to believe the suggar babies in average have significantly higher levels of feelings or attraction than regular prostitutes (regular means you like them and their service feels really good to you, which requires sampling several and/or screening based on peer reviews) in average.
Plus you can still have free FBs who are really there purely for the sex with you, I totally get that it’s uncomparable with prostitution or sugar babies.
So I really have a hard time to see the point in hassling with 150$ sugar babies sex sessions in a place with comparably priced legal prostitution. If prostitution is for instance 200$/h minimum and you get sugar babies for 50$/h, then ok I get the point of cost effectiveness.
I wrote my previous comment before yours appeared, so I wasn’t replying to your comment. However I will just say:
https://alphamale20.com/blackdragonblog/2014/11/16/the-fastest-way-to-be-a-failure/
Yes BlackDragon, if you don’t like the experience with a hooker just don’t use her services again. Some are just bad and feel as you just said. But if you continue sampling hookers services and/or read peer reviews or use some recommended by other men you will pretty soon enough find one that provides similar if not superior service than your sugar babies.
I get that in Portland it’s not legal. However in New Zealand, I would be very surprised if this approach doesn’t work for you after careful sampling of a large enough set.
I see similar idea pattern as guys who say:
“I tried online dating once. It didn’t work. All women online are poor quality or ugly. Normal women don’t need to use internet for dating.”
Thanks anyways for participating in the discussion and having answered in detail my questions.
Gang I’m not sure if English is your second language, but you need to work on your reading comprehension. The article you quoted has nothing to do with what I’m saying. I’m not saying fucking prostitutes doesn’t work. I’ve already said, many times, that it’s a great system that works very well. I’m saying that as a matter of opinion, I personally don’t like it and vastly prefer sugar babies instead, just like I hate brussel sprouts and vastly prefer cauliflower instead. I don’t need to keep trying brussel sprouts to verify I don’t like them. I already know.
It sounds like you could enjoy a good non rushed GFE prostitution service, whereas what you tried in Vegas sounds at best like “mechanical” PSE service, perhaps rushed. Different prositutes approach their work with a different touch. Some really hate their work and you feel it, the experience is unpleasant. Some may perform more crazy sex things but may feel more mechanical. Some may treat their work as an art or with more soul. Some may be specialised in girl friend experience, meaning they excel in making you feel as if they are also interested in you (perhaps truthfully, but it’s largelly irrelevant if you can’t feel a difference). Most sugar babies operate in this last category. But a lot of prostitutes can do that too.
Next question I have to you BD:
If prostitution felt gross to you because fake, how can you feel enthousiastic about having sex with AI and/or sexbots in the future? What’s the difference to you in perception? Unlike above, I am not trying anymore to make a point or prove you wrong here but interested to understand how comes you have such a different feeling. I mean perhaps you could indeed dislike prostitution even after trying 1000 times, however you wrote articles about your future self enjoying sex with a robot.Why is that?
Yeah, I thought SB’s would be cheap in Portland because it’s so easy to get laid for free there. Thanks for giving us an indication of what you’re paying and how long for, $150 for 20 minutes of sex seems about right for Portland.
I know an old, bald, fat guy in his 60’s that even admits he’s absolutely nothing to look at who can get hot young girls off SA in Chicago, which is a more expensive city, for $150-$200, with a little bit of searching, probably more searching than you’d have to do because of his shortcomings. If you find the right girl then all they seem to care about is getting paid anyway.
Aren’t you worried Jack Outside the Box will find them and spit on them though?
@JOTB are you planning to spit on BD’s whores?
Judges make rulings like “I find this contract unfair and therefore I declare it void” all the time.
And if there are children, the sky is the limit as to what amount of child support the judge will call “fair” (though as opposed to the above, this makes at least some sense because the children signed nothing).
Getting way too off-topic dude.
For what it’s worth, for those exploring possibilities outside their home country, Indonesia has strong legal support for binding prenuptial agreements, with many couples using them. Many mixed national couples use them, because it makes it a lot easier for the Indonesian to own land and to engage in other business that is restricted for foreigners.
I asked one question about sugar babies and somehow it morphed into fucking robots. Love this blog
BD what site did you use to find sugar babies?
Funny enough i came across an article today where a woman was describing her grief over the death of her partner-they were not legally married but together a long time. The main point was most people didn’t seem to think her loss was a big deal since they were unmarried. The comment section was dripping with people just saying they had no actual commitment, the relationship wasn’t real, why didn’t they just get married already???? The SP is very strong out there in regards to these matters.
And then on the other side, I know plenty of “committed” couples who are legally married and cheat on each other left and right. Gotta love the irony.
Yes you can and its very simple. You just put in the contract that it cannot be taken in court or contested for any reason under any circumstances. If you want to be really safe you just put in the contract that the contract is automatically void if there would ever be any applicable law that allows it to be contested / ignored. With the marriage example it would mean if you move to a new jurisdiction where the laws dont support the story in your contract then you are automatically not married anymore for that jurisdiction.
You also said you would buy sex robots? I see others also asked this but indeed – normal people only – or robots are fine?
All this would achieve is canceling the marriage contract and not the marriage I’m sure. The marriage itself is a contract between three parties, not two, as it includes the government, and the government will have its own ideas as to what can terminate the marriage and what can’t.
Plus, in the US, apparently, or at least in some states (the cases a quick Google search turned up were from New York), an agreement can be thrown out if it’s found to be unconscionable, that is, it “is one which no person in his or her senses and not under delusion would make on the one hand, and no honest and fair person would accept on the other, the inequality being so strong and manifest as to shock the conscience and confound the judgment of any person of common sense”, and furthermore, an agreement “that might not have been unconscionable when entered into may become unconscionable at the time a final judgment would be entered”.
So “I would have never signed this agreement had I known he would work so hard and efficiently as to earn this much money” is a valid defense!
I’ve used many. Sugardaddyforme, Seeking Arrangement, Millionaire Match, etc. Now please try to keep all questions to me in this thread from this point forward on-topic. Thanks.
A family is greater than the sum of its parts. The value of marriage is not in the happiness it brings to the two people involved; happiness is a by-product of becoming greater than you once were and that takes sacrifice and discipline. An individual’s happiness, whims, and urges mean very little.
Selfishness is what ends marriages, not our biology. Human beings are more than our biology. Feelings are transient. Boredom, sexual urges, and avoidance of loneliness aren’t important enough to control decisions that have long-term impact. Our high divorce rates are due to immaturity. To live ruled by emotion is to forever remain a child.
Completely and utterly disagree with every fiber of my being. You are espousing literally the opposite of my core philosophy.
Empirically incorrect. It’s largely our biology. Human begins were never designed to be sexually monogamous with one pair-bonded partner for 50+ years. (Though I agree selfishness is a large factor as well.)
Incorrect. They are due to human biology plus a free society where lifetime marriage isn’t enforced socially.
On that we agree. A shame we disagree on literally everything else.
You’re quite perceptive, but lack discipline in this area. Self-denial and impulse control are necessary for achievement in any part of life- diet, career, parenting, education, and in marriage. Blaming biology doesn’t change this.
Congratulations on your successes and may you meet many more.
To everyone, the comment problem some of you are experiencing is because of changes WordPress made to comply with the god damn GDPR regulations from Europe. (Thanks, Europeans! Keep voting for those socialist authoritarians! Great job, and thanks for fucking up the internet!)
Please delete your browser cache, then you’ll see a checkmark that will save your input information. That should fix it. (Please give us about 24 hours if you don’t see it on either blog.)
I know.
See below.
Correct. And those two things have nothing to do with physiological biological limitations.
Never take a piss for the next 50 years. Oh, you can’t do it? You clearly lack discipline and impulse control.
Correct. Saying 2+2=4 doesn’t change math. It simply helps explain it.
Thank you!