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-By Caleb Jones
We last left off in winter of 2007. Still inexperienced, I was in the middle of my first, ongoing, nonmonogamous relationship of any real length with Jenae, a 40 year-old, sexually inexperienced Christian provider hunter.
With my relationship wit Jenae going strong, I backed off a little on the online dating. I would still occasionally message women, but I stopped doing the big blitzes I had been doing previously. It being 2007, Match.com and Yahoo Personals were my two primary dating sites. OKCupid didn’t yet really exist, Plenty of Fish was small and not yet on my radar, and it hadn’t yet occurred to me to try MySpace as a dating mechanism (that would change in early 2009).
During this time, a cute, blonde, 31 year-old named Heather messaged me on Match.com. Usually, the women messaging me first were ugly or overweight, but surprisingly, Heather seemed pretty cute. During our messaging and text communication, she was very sharp, sarcastic, and witty. I liked it. I scheduled a first date with her easily.
We met up at a bar attached to a restaurant downtown (no dinner, thank god), and as soon as I got a good look at her in the lights of the evening, I was flabbergasted. She was ridiculously beautiful, far better than her pictures had indicated, and was an exact duplicate of the Christy Template, so she was exactly my physical type. Short, blonde, brown eyes, trim body, big ass, decent boobs, beautiful face, and an amazing smile. It was as if a more intelligent and attractive version of Christy had been resurrected from my past and was standing there right before me. I had hit the jackpot, or so I thought.
We talked for a few hours (too long for a first date!), sitting in one of the darker booths in the back of the bar. She wasn’t as feminine as I liked; she had been raised in the rural Midwest so there was a slight masculine, redneck edge to her that I didn't love. However, she was very intelligent and whip-sarcastic, which was a huge plus. I hadn’t yet calibrated my conversational style for women and dating, and many women have trouble keeping up with me verbally when I’m in my natural state, but she had no problem. It was nice. No kissing or hugging or sex at the end of the date; I just said goodbye. (I had no idea at the time that this was actually the best thing to do.)
We met up again just for about 20 minutes a few days later, just to chat in a parking lot and exchange some real estate information (she liked looking at new houses). My horniness was off the charts. I wanted to kiss her badly right then and there, and grab that huge ass, but I was too fearful. Still with lots of beta male within me, much of my pussiness reasserted itself, and I couldn’t bring myself to escalate.
Oh well. The third meet was the charm. We met up at a furniture store and took a look around as our “date.” Very, very big mistake, since nothing fires up provider hunter tendencies than something like that, but I had no idea at the time.
Afterwards, we’re talking in my car, at night, in the parking lot, and I finally mustered up the courage to kiss her. She was, hands down, the best kisser I had ever kissed up until that point. She used her tongue in just the right way I liked. Holding her in my arms was an orgasmic experience. Her eyes were the most beautiful things I had ever beheld (again, up until that point).
My inner caveman took over, as it usually does, and I started getting very aggressive. Instead of scaring her, she liked it. Soon, we had moved to the back seat of the car and got more sexual, though no clothing came off.
That very next morning, I was planning on leaving for Las Vegas, by myself, for some blackjack fun. We were already right by the airport and my plan was to stay over in the airport hotel, then leave the next morning. As I held her in the back seat of my car, panting, my horniness a volcano, I asked her to come to the hotel with me and spend the night. She responded with “I don’t know.”
I asked her again. She wavered.
I asked her again, harder this time. She just looked into my eyes and said nothing.
I asked her again, a fourth time. She said “Okay.”
Lesson Number Nine
Persist. Ask. Then Ask again. Then ask again. The odds are good that eventually she’ll say yes even though her first answer is no.
If she isn’t attracted to you, she’ll say no regardless of how many times you ask. This is why once you get three or four no’s, you should forget her and move on. But, if she is attracted to you and hasn’t yet overcome her own ASD, you should propose sex more than once after her first “no,” since her first “no” is reflective not of her desires, but of her false ASD.
though her first answer is no. Within 30 minutes, we were having sex at the hotel, and it was great despite my use of a condom. She spent the night with me, which was a mistake (don’t spend the night with a woman the first time you have sex with her, even if you’re sure you want a real relationship with her; it’s bad for your EFA). The next morning, I flew to Vegas. It was hard to keep Heather out of my mind while there.
though her first answer is no. Upon my return from Vegas, my woman-life started getting complicated, and I wasn’t quite ready for it. I was having sex with Jenae, having sex with Heather, and still going out on occasional first dates with other women. Even Marci returned(!) and I played around with her once or twice as well. This showed me, for the first time, that when you don’t act like a beta boyfriend, women come back to you. Very interesting! I made a note of it in my journals and spreadsheets for further analysis and future experimentation.
But like I said, I was an idiot with this stuff back then, so there were problems.
I started feeling guilty that I had not told Jenae anything about my sex on the side, though I was hoping she “assumed.” My nonmonogamous EFA was not good at all, so unlike today, I had no idea whether or not Jenae assumed I was seeing other women or not.
I finally had a talk with Jenae about the fact I was not going to be monogamous with her. She didn’t like it, but she told me that her rule was that I was required to tell her if I actually had sex with another woman. If I just kissed or was sexual with other women, she said she didn’t care, but didn’t want to hear about it. But sex, she wanted to know.
Hmmm…that was going to be a problem. I had no problem telling her, and I knew I couldn’t lie to anyone, but I knew drama would be the result if I did.
Marci had no problem with me having sex with other women and knew I was doing it. She was a FB at that point, so I could tell her all about Heather and Jenae with no judgment, drama, or jealousy whatsoever. It was then that I realized how wonderful FB’s are… they don’t care about what you do on the side… very nice!
Heather strongly suspected I was still dating other women (she actually mentioned it to me at one point), but she was still too new to make any demands. But Jenae was another situation entirely. I had been seeing her for a quite a while, and she was very dating inexperienced, and she was a hardcore Christian, and she was a provider hunter. I knew I had to tell her, and I also knew she would not take the news very well. I resolved to tell her the very next time I saw her.
Several nights later, in her bed, I held her close to me and told her. It was one of the hardest things I ever had to do. Tears slowly appeared and she held me tight. She finally said “Okay, I’ve been thinking about this.” She reached over and grabbed a new box of condoms. She explained that these were the condoms I was supposed to start using on her, now that I was having sex with other women. For a minute, my heart leapt. She just said YES! She just AGREED to this! This would be great! Three women, all of whom knew I was having sex with other women, would keep having sex with me! My dream had finally come true!
Well, not yet. As Jenae handed me the condoms, she burst out crying.
I told her I cared for her and didn’t want her to do anything that would make her unhappy. I told her to really think about this before we did anything else. She nodded and agreed. Nothing else happened that night and I left her with a big hug.
A few days later, she came over to my cramped, guy-still-going-through-a-divorce apartment, gave me a bottle of wine as a gift, and told me, very sweetly, that it was over. She just couldn’t reconcile an open relationship with me based on her feelings for me and her religious Societal Programming. I gave her another big hug and that was that. I really cared for her and was sorry to see her go.
My mistake, as I learned later, was that I verbalized too much to Jenae too soon while not maintaining a strong enough EFA. If I had instead strongly sub-communicated that I was having sex with other women instead of verbally stating it, then eventually verbalizing it after months with a well-planned Talk, Jenae would have stayed with me sexually for a very, very long time. But I was still new at all this and didn’t have a roadmap before me. I was doing the best I could.
When it comes to talking about sex with other women, subcommunicate, and subcommunicate strongly, but don’t verbalize it! You can’t do this forever, but the longer you can do it, the better your odds of success become.
With Jenae gone, I kept seeing Heather. It was then that I made my next set of mistakes; some of the most important ones that would solidify my nonmonogamy relationship system.
More next time.
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John 2017-08-31 05:21:07
Furniture shopping :DDD so presidential
The New Yorker 2017-08-31 05:29:56
Hey BD, I'm curious. In terms of one single style of game, is learning seduction and managing relationships a process that never ends? Or do you learn virtually everything at some point? And with regards to social circle game, you mentioned before that you're at a very high level of competence. So in the context of establishing nonmonogamous relationships via social circle game, could you provide a rough outline (step by step) of the seduction phase? Or maybe an article on your personal approach to social circle game? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess you would probably tell me to schedule a date with a girl from my social circle asap, and then follow up with the typical blackdragon dating system of 2-3 dates. If so, how would you approach the act of scheduling a first date?
VSmile 2017-08-31 06:27:48
Love this series, too bad they come out only once in a few months. Its amusing how you have to specify about Heather's beauty and kissing skills - "up until that point". I have a feeling this is done with the knowledge of Pink Firefly reading this blog hehe.
David 2017-08-31 08:03:38
These stories are really, really helpful. It's nice to see the bumps and stumbles of "the master", as it just helps remind me (and all guys newer to this lifestyle) that we all screw this up along the way. As you've said Caleb, this stuff is a SKILL. And, like any skill, it will take lots of trial and error before it flows much easier. Hey, in regards to Lesson Ten, this is something I still struggle with and could use some more clarification. I still have trouble understanding how to strongly signal that I'm having sex with other women, without blatantly stating it. How do I know that the women are getting the hints, so that when it comes time to have The Talk, they're not completely shocked at the reveal? I know it comes down to a strong non mono frame, but what actions will best convey that frame, I suppose is what I'm asking.
Magok 2017-08-31 10:31:21
If I just kissed or was sexual with other women, she said she didn’t care, but didn’t want to hear about it. But sex, she wanted to knowWhat about girls who are "ok" with the open relationships, but they don't want to know anything about you being with another girl? I'm ok about don't giving to many details, but if a have to be a ninja to have a FB it feels like I'm cheating anyways or that a shitstorm of drama will happen eventually.
Blackdragon 2017-08-31 10:43:39
In terms of one single style of game, is learning seduction and managing relationships a process that never ends? Or do you learn virtually everything at some point?You don't eventually learn everything, but you do eventually learn everything necessary to meet your goals. I know how to get laid literally whenever I want and keep long-term nonmono relationships with ease. However, I don't know how to walk into a dance club and do a bathroom pull, banging a chick in a bathroom within 30 minutes... but that's not a goal I've ever had nor ever will, so it's not relevant (to me). Today, yeah, I know pretty much everything about seduction and relationships that's required to meet my goals; I hit that level many years ago. I don't even think about it anymore; I just do it on autopilot. It's nice.
So in the context of establishing nonmonogamous relationships via social circle game, could you provide a rough outline (step by step) of the seduction phase? Or maybe an article on your personal approach to social circle game?I'll make a post about it. Good idea. I don't think I'm a social circle "expert," (I'm an introvert after all), but oh yeah, but I've done it a lot and gotten results from it, particularly from A) VYW and B) older women in the corporate world.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I guess you would probably tell me to schedule a date with a girl from my social circle asap, and then follow up with the typical blackdragon dating system of 2-3 dates. If so, how would you approach the act of scheduling a first date?No, it depends on the scenario. Sometimes you can just invite women right over to your home for sex. Like I said, I'll make a blog post about it.
Its amusing how you have to specify about Heather’s beauty and kissing skills – “up until that point”. I have a feeling this is done with the knowledge of Pink Firefly reading this blog hehe.I assume everyone in my entire life will read what I write here, not only including PF, but my friends, family, all of my exes, etc. I don't care. If anyone doesn't like it, that's their problem. Outcome independence. (And dude, in terms of kissing skills, there were a lot of other women between the events in this article in 2007 and when I first met PF 7-8 years later.)
It’s nice to see the bumps and stumbles of “the master”, as it just helps remind me (and all guys newer to this lifestyle) that we all screw this up along the way.Yep. With the exception of naturals (which I clearly wasn't and which few of us are), no one starts out good at this stuff. We all SUCK when we start out! The point is to stick with it until you don't suck anymore.
I still have trouble understanding how to strongly signal that I’m having sex with other women, without blatantly stating it. How do I know that the women are getting the hints, so that when it comes time to have The Talk, they’re not completely shocked at the reveal?A) Do all of the regular relationship rules I talk about (all of them, not some of them), B) Show her evidence of other women rather than proof. Buy my open relationships book and read chapter six if you want more detail. (Though there's a new version of that book coming shortly.)
Blackdragon 2017-08-31 10:44:35
Love this series, too bad they come out only once in a few months.and
These stories are really, really helpful.I didn't realize you guys liked this series that much. If I get more positive feedback I'll start posting them more often.
VC 2017-08-31 11:00:37
Yes, please do publish more of the 'stumbling blocks' i.e. learnings that you have had on your path. It is really helpful for ex-beta guys like me or should i say newly turned 2.0's like me!
Dingus 2017-08-31 11:37:21
Yes, please do publish more of the ‘stumbling blocks’ i.e. learnings that you have had on your path. It is really helpful for ex-beta guys like me or should i say newly turned 2.0’s like me!Just wanted to second this sentiment. I really enjoy this series of articles as well. Makes me feel better about all the first dates I botch. Good refresher on the basics as well.
Anon 2017-08-31 12:43:34
I still have trouble understanding how to strongly signal that I’m having sex with other women, without blatantly stating it.Women are perceptive. Once you start actually having sex with other women, you'll do some things and not do others, sometimes unconsciously. Like having those girly things they need in the shower which men have no use for. Or things she forgets at your place ending up in a remote drawer (bonus points if those are not only things there). Or denying some requests. Or whatever. That in addition to evidence you plant intentionally as BD suggests. And on the other hand, confirmation bias works in your favor. By definition, she's attracted to you, and she'll think other women are attracted to you as well. Add to that confidence and outcome independence, and she'll assume there are other women even if there's no rational reason to deduce that. Note that if you're de facto monogamous, you are very likely to become complacent and start leaving cues, tangible as well as behavioral, to that effect. Don't be de facto monogamous.
CrabRangoon 2017-08-31 13:07:59
These are great to show guys that it does take time and many mistakes along the way to get this lifestyle down. You don't just wake up one day, decide to do the non-mono thing and presto you've got a harem. Very few men a naturals at seduction-most of us have to work at it and keep persisting. Keep at it and eventually things will shake out really well. I'm only about 3 years into this and while I've had success, I've had failures too and made some dumb moves. It's already getting easier and I've gotten better at it this last year. Thanks for sharing!
venom 2017-08-31 13:10:04
Women are perceptive. Once you start actually having sex with other women, you’ll do some things and not do others, sometimes unconsciously. Note that if you’re de facto monogamous, you are very likely to become complacent and start leaving cues, tangible as well as behavioral, to that effect. Don’t be de facto monogamous.This is so true, you're vibe and behavior is just different when you have at least two in the kitty, women definitely pick up on that. I was de facto mono a few months ago, and it sucked big time. Even though I knew how to game my remaining girl and gave my best to not behave differently than before, it seemed like something was off and she definitely noticed (subconcously?). Things didn't flow naturally...shit tests occured not far down that road. The most important thing for your nonmono EFA is that you're actually living the nonmono life
The New Yorker 2017-08-31 18:33:45
By the way BD, You mentioned in your latest Get to Sex Fast ebook that "The racial component of dating is an utterly fascinating and complicated one." And that you could "write an entire book" on the subject. So in the context of nonmonogamous relationships and calibrating techniques accordingly, could you make more articles on the subject? Of course you've made the Pickup According to Men's Race Series, but they seem to only touch the seduction aspect of dating. Plus, in my opinion, the fact that some women (especially East Asian women) become extremely and secretly racist when it comes to dating (usually towards dark skinned men) necessitates the education of your readers on the subject.
Blackdragon 2017-08-31 19:24:35
You mentioned in your latest Get to Sex Fast ebook that “The racial component of dating is an utterly fascinating and complicated one.” And that you could “write an entire book” on the subject.Correct. I wouldn't, but I could. (It would involve too much research and I'm not that interested.)
So in the context of nonmonogamous relationships and calibrating techniques accordingly, could you make more articles on the subject?Sure. That topic is already on the topic list. I'll get around to it eventually.
Plus, in my opinion, the fact that some women (especially East Asian women) become extremely and secretly racist when it comes to dating (usually towards dark skinned men) necessitates the education of your readers on the subject.True, but the only real education is "If you're a black guy, don't focus on Asian women as your target market. Then you'll get laid more, and more easily." There's no need to target a group of women least likely to have sex with you quickly. That's not effectiveness. (Notice I don't date very many women over age 33; that's why. I go where sex is easy for me, not hard.)
A Man 2017-08-31 19:57:30
What is a graceful way to get an FB to leave after you've had sex? (you mention it's a bad idea for an FB to sleep over). Oh, and I agree, these articles in the series are very good. I encourage you to do them more frequently.
joelsuf 2017-08-31 21:48:13
It was then that I realized how wonderful FB’s are… they don’t care about what you do on the side… very nice!At the expense of my cynicism of chicks in the west, I'm beginning to believe that having nothing but FBs is the the best option for dudes in the west who don't want to raise a family. My ex STILL has feelings for me, and its getting pretty annoying. I can only stomach so many "I miss you :(" texts from her before I crack and tell her to take a flying fuck off. Neediness and one itis...I absolutely despise it. She even called me the other day when I was out with some buddies and in a very desperate and patronizing tone she said "so you can't talk to me?" Its like holy shit woman, move on already.
LibreMax 2017-08-31 22:08:25
I too love this serie. Whereas the gossip based posts like the previous one have virtually no point for me personally. I was actually wondering why you write such articles about famous people's gossip. Then I thought that perhaps it's a good strategy to bring traffic of newcomers to your blog. Whether it's something you do consciously or not, do you have traffic statistics to backup that it indeed has this effect?
Blackdragon 2017-08-31 22:40:45
What is a graceful way to get an FB to leave after you’ve had sex? (you mention it’s a bad idea for an FB to sleep over).Before you have sex, as soon as she comes over, give her the time constraint. "Hey, I need to wrap this up by about 10pm because I've got to get up early for work tomorrow. Cool?" Then it's not awkward when she has to go after sex. Also, don't shuffle women right out the door after sex, even if they're FB's, unless they clearly want to go. (Long-term FB's usually want to go; it's the new ones that may want to stay.) You can't spend time with FB's, but doesn't mean you need to be an asshole. Be nice.
I was actually wondering why you write such articles about famous people’s gossip. Then I thought that perhaps it’s a good strategy to bring traffic of newcomers to your blog.Bingo.
Whether it’s something you do consciously or not,I do it consciously. I do everything on this blog consciously. Although there are times I actually want do it, like this time.
do you have traffic statistics to backup that it indeed has this effect?I'm Blackdragon. What do you think? As a recent example, You should have seen the traffic and sales boost I got from the Brad and Angelina post I made. However, I don't need just celebrity posts to generate a lot of traffic. These past few posts got huge amounts of traffic, and I really enjoyed writing them: The Stupidity of Looking for External Solutions The Fear of Dying Alone Why I Stopped Dating Russian Women The problem is that when I write a post, I don't know for sure if it will generate huge amounts of traffic or not. I have to guess. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. But I'm almost always right on the celebrity posts; it's a nice way to smooth out my higher traffic numbers.
JEB 2017-08-31 23:28:46
I didn’t realize you guys liked this series that much. If I get more positive feedback I’ll start posting them more often.Not only are they hillarious (at least some of the examples you pulled from your dating history a while back), but quite helpful when you start analyzing the situations.
VSmile 2017-09-01 01:58:33
Blackdragon, I meant to tell you that you might want to slightly alter your newsletter if you want to boost traffic to the website further. Currently it allows readers to read it in full on their email platform, the only reason for going to the website being to leave/read comments. Maybe only giving away the first paragraph and then "click here to read more" button with a link to the website?
Biz4prez 2017-09-01 09:03:24
I didn’t realize you guys liked this series that much. If I get more positive feedback I’ll start posting them more often.< They're pretty dope learning about your struggles and successes. It helps me relate knowing I've made similar mistakes. It shows me I too can be great at this as long as I put the work in and follow your advice correctly. P.s how do you quote a comment?
Blackdragon 2017-09-01 10:12:12
Blackdragon, I meant to tell you that you might want to slightly alter your newsletter if you want to boost traffic to the website further. Currently it allows readers to read it in full on their email platform, the only reason for going to the website being to leave/read comments. Maybe only giving away the first paragraph and then “click here to read more” button with a link to the website?I've considered that, but I think most people who subscribe like the convenience of not having to do that, and some would be irritated if I forced them to go to the site. I go back and forth on it.
P.s how do you quote a comment?If you're on a phone or tablet, it's hard (working on fixing that). If you're on a real computer, just highlight the text you want to quote and click the quote button on the toolbar.
Anon 2017-09-01 13:49:03
Blackdragon, In accordance with your comment policy, where does one post questions that are not on topic for this article, but are on topic across other articles on your blog?
Blackdragon 2017-09-01 14:43:09
In accordance with your comment policy, where does one post questions that are not on topic for this article, but are on topic across other articles on your blog?I have no official comment policy on that. You are free to ask all the off topic questions you like, in any thread on this blog. It's just that I won't respond to them, though other commenters are welcome to. You are free to ask on-topic questions on past threads, but per my new personal policy I announced here, I don't answer comments on threads that are more than two posts old (with rare exceptions). If you need more options, read this.
Tom 2017-09-01 16:23:12
Good stuff up to now. But i would like to hear about sober game... i have tried it and failed...tried to convert a marraige to an open marraige using your book.. and failed..i am no w up to my neck in it...i want a refund...when are you taking a visit to Ireland the land of leaphpeacans .and drunken game. Looking forward to your reply as always Tom.
Blackdragon 2017-09-01 20:04:00
Good stuff up to now. But i would like to hear about sober game… i have tried it and failed…tried to convert a marraige to an open marraige using your book.. and failed..i am no w up to my neck in it…i want a refund…when are you taking a visit to Ireland the land of leaphpeacans .and drunken game. Looking forward to your reply as always Tom.Have another drink, Tom.
VJ 2017-09-02 01:37:55
Here's a poll! Which of BD's articles - have been the true 'turning points' in your life. Vote for those articles that made you sit up and say WTF! These should be the articles that you feel have truly changed your perspective towards women and gotten you greater success rates!! I would have to say 1) The One On Female Attraction https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/12/01/men-dont-understand-female-attraction/ & 2) Why It's So Important To Ignore Her After A Break-Up https://blackdragonblog.com/2014/10/12/important-ignore-breakup/ .What do you guys think???
VJ 2017-09-02 02:02:42
For its really deep understanding of drama, and how to avoid it - I would also rank this one right up there! https://blackdragonblog.com/2014/06/04/the-definition-of-relationship-problems-drama/
Marty McFly 2017-09-02 19:27:44
From grasshopper to master.
Blackdragon 2017-09-03 11:08:58
Here’s a poll! Which of BD’s articles – have been the true ‘turning points’ in your life.I actually have a "best of" articles post planned. It's been something I've wanted to do for a while now.
epi 2017-09-03 11:15:34
What do you think of seeing two women in the same social circle? I think you've implied that's bad in the comments, but I don't remember reading about it anywhere else.
Blackdragon 2017-09-03 11:31:37
What do you think of seeing two women in the same social circle? I think you’ve implied that’s bad in the comments, but I don’t remember reading about it anywhere else.With FB's it's fine as long as you keep things discreet, particularly if they're in their 20's. With MLTR's, or a combination of FB's and MLTR's, it's a terrible idea; many men make that mistake.
christiangreypua 2017-10-10 04:43:42